Author Topic: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?  (Read 8710 times)

driftwood

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2018, 04:08:43 PM »
I mentally do the same with everything. EVERYTHING. I immediately look for a loophole or way to do something easier, or to make money from it.

Normally after thinking about how I could use the system, I move on and just do the morally acceptable thing.

For example:  Most Air Force units will give a member a day pass (free day off) if they score 90% or above on a physical fitness test. Once you score over a 90%, you don't have to retest for a year, but you can do a walk-in test any time you want. So immediately I start thinking... I could take a test probably every 3-4 months, and no one would realize I was doing this so often, and I'd get 3-4 days off a year instead of the 1. Never did it though.

Your scheme with the gift cards was great, I would've done the same thing.

We also get a housing allowance, and if we rent under that housing allowance we get to keep the difference... this leads to all kinds of ideas. Be homeless and use the gym and pocket the whole amount? AirBnB the other bedrooms?

I think you don't need to worry about being 'ethical', but be careful to keep your schemes in the 'loophole' realm and not the 'illegal' realm.
Even though it was illegal and he could have gone to jail for it, and did end up being fired for it?  You later say the OP should be careful to keep his schemes legal, so I'm hoping you just missed the part that what he did was illegal when you said it was "great".

Even you PFA scam, which was legal, would have been a terrible idea. (So "keep it legal" doesn't seem like nearly enough of a line to draw.)  Perhaps is you were getting out soon and didn't care about evaluations or anything else, it wouldn't have mattered, but had your command noticed you doing this (had you chosen to), you would have immediately been a dirtbag in their minds, almost certainly.  There go promotions and other opportunities.  And when someone doesn't go t work their coworkers pick up the slack, so they likely wouldn't have been to thrilled with or gracious about this either.  Penny wise, pound foolish. 

And that's just the practical side, before we even get to the actual ethics considerations.

I missed that the gift card scheme was illegal. So that's my bad.

The PFA thing was just more to show how my mind works. I wasn't in a position where me being gone mattered to my unit, so that wasn't part of the consideration. Yes, if someone noticed it could affect my reputation. If I had an Airman do that, and I caught them, I'd just tell them they're only getting one pass a year based on their PFA score. I definitely admire my guys being wily, it helps when you have to out-clever an adversary.

ChpBstrd

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2018, 09:00:36 PM »
A lot of poor kids growing up in rough neighborhoods think they only way they could possibly be successful is as a pimp, drug dealer, or sports star. Those are the only role models they see. This is how people go to jail for 10 years for robbing a gas station of $35.

Similarly, your thoughts appear to revolve around how to score $1,500 through some loophole, when within a matter of clicks and a couple interviews you might score yourself a $15,000 raise or by reducing your consumption a little bit contribute $150,000 to your net worth in a few years. Honestly, if your creativity and passion for moneymaking were directed in an entrepreneurial way, you might be worth $1,500,000 within a couple of years.

So why are you chasing pennies at great risk and neglecting the better and more honest opportunities all around you?

It might be a gambling thing. Does the "drug" give you a rush only when obtained through some trick or at someone's expense? Does a scheme seem like a win and hard work like being the sucker? Does making a little money fast feel a lot better than making a ton of money slowly?

Who are your role models? People you've met who got rich through hard work or Donald Trump on your TV?

Tass

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2018, 10:47:34 PM »
Such an interesting question!

You're not "naturally" unethical, though. You've developed some unethical habits of mind -- some of which you act on, some of which you don't. If I thought as much as you do about how I could game/scam systems, who knows what temptations I might give in to? I don't think the problem is how much you give in to temptation. It's how much you expose yourself to it.

When I find my mind start drifting toward "how could I scam this?" I pull it right back. And it's not because I'm particularly ethical: it's because I don't want to live in a mental world in which I'm not on the same side as the people I interact with. Not even for long enough to do the mental exercise of figuring out the scam. I just really, really don't want to live there. I treasure feeling like I'm part of a group that I trust and which trusts me. It makes me happy -- in that basic, deep-down way of "I belong here and I'm doing what I should be doing with my life."

Of course part of that is that I've found people I DO trust and groups I DO want to be part of. You may not have found those. I also suspect that you've spent too much time around people who aren't as smart as you are. I grew up that way, in a small town that wasn't really full of geniuses, and it gave me an inflated idea of how smart I was -- it made me wonder whether I was really even of the same species as the people around me. It was a bad start to life. I got lucky later on: I found people who were really smart -- a lot smarter than I was. That right there cured me of a lot of bad mental habits.

As far as changing your mind goes -- it takes time and effort. Therapy's one method; meditation is another. You need to learn to change the course of your thoughts in real time. "Oops, thinking out a scam again... let's think about legitimate hacks instead!" It's totally doable. You need to have the motivation clear, you need to identify the trouble spots, you need to have the skill of observing your mind in action, and you need to have an alternate course to nudge it into. Just a set of skills, like riding a bike.

This guy gives quality advice.

ROF Expat

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2018, 05:28:46 AM »
Teltic,

I've never engaged in the "face punching" that I'm told used to be prevalent here, but maybe you need one. 

Your question about being "unethical" has generated some thought provoking responses, but it seems to me that your issue might be stupidity more than a lack of ethics.  It is an ethics issue that you stole from your employer.  It is a stupidity issue that you got caught.  It is a stupidity issue that you then (justifiably) lost your job and almost went to jail.  If you had gone to jail and had a permanent record, it might also have made you unbondable, affecting your future employment for the rest of your life.  All that for a lousy 1,500 dollars?  Stupidity.  Now you're talking about risking what sounds like a pretty good job, and damaging future employment prospects for a lousy $2,500?  Are you sure that nobody in your company ever audits anything?  You do seem to have an ethics issue, but it seems to me that your bigger problem is that you don't learn from your mistakes.  Even if you get away with scamming your company this time, if you keep doing this kind of thing,the odds will catch up with you and you'll eventually get caught.  Again.  The lost income and other consequences will likely far outweigh anything you gain from your penny ante thefts. 

There's probably something to the idea that every man or woman "has a price" and that for some amount of money they'll compromise their integrity.  If the price of your integrity is only a couple of thousand bucks, I feel sorry for you.   

gaja

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #54 on: October 20, 2018, 05:56:37 AM »
This book is good in the original format, it is part of the curriculum in several universities in Norway. Don't know how the English version is, but the price looks good:
https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Reasoning-Work-Rethinking-Organizations-ebook/dp/B016DHOMRK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1540036135&sr=8-1&keywords=kvalnes

teltic

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #55 on: October 20, 2018, 11:07:27 AM »
So a quick update....

To terminate my lease, it'll cost $7700!

To let my lease run out, it will cost $7200.


... :|  What in the fuck?

So its better for my company to just let this run out.  Which then makes me think there's no reason why not to grab an extra roommate to replace me to collect $7200.. BAHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Would you go through the hassle of getting a new roommate for 3 months, for $7200?

ChpBstrd

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2018, 12:26:17 PM »
What you're talking about now is scavenging wasted assets, not so much being dishonest or sketchy. I doubt your idea would be worth the hassle though because:

1) Roommates usually need to be approved through the leasing office, and there may be financial sanctions for unauthorized subletting - which would be all yours. How are you going to set things up with the leasing office without them telling your company which has the lease?

2) You'd be in the hook for their damages, smoking, pets, criminal activities, etc...

3) Your company might find itself with a last minute need to move someone into that location and - look! - we still have two months left on this empty apartment so let's send our person there. Wait, who are these squatters?

Try moving your thoughts in a creative, entrepreneurial direction. These wasted lease months seem to be a costly problem for companies and individuals. It probably amounts to billions of dollars per year. What if you set up a firm that matches people quitting their leases early with people looking for an apartment for less than a year, or a bargain in exchange for moving a lot? Could people auction their remaining lease time? How could you make this profitable for landlords too, so that they recommend your services?

See, I took your $7k might-work-one-time idea and converted it into a potentially multi-million dollar business model. This is your new habit of thought.

charis

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2018, 08:28:56 AM »
So a quick update....

To terminate my lease, it'll cost $7700!

To let my lease run out, it will cost $7200.


... :|  What in the fuck?

So its better for my company to just let this run out.  Which then makes me think there's no reason why not to grab an extra roommate to replace me to collect $7200.. BAHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Would you go through the hassle of getting a new roommate for 3 months, for $7200?

I'm confused, you are moving out of the apartment and back to your original work location, but thinking of secretly subletting the company-paid apartment?  How is this feasible, much less a good idea?

snogirl

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2018, 09:14:04 AM »
Why settle for $7200? AirBnB it and push that number up with varied rates!

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


fat-johnny

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2018, 11:12:49 AM »
My buddy did something similar with the gift card “laundering”.

He works as a beer vendor for our local baseball stadium.  When he reports for work, he has to buy his first case of beer for say $100 (for ease of math).  He then goes and walks the stadium, sells those beers for $500.  For ease of math, he gives $300 to the stadium, and gets to keep $100 as his pay for the time spent, and then has the other $100 to buy his next case of beer.  The more/faster he can sell beer, the more he keeps for himself.  He could usually sell ~10 cases per game.

Well…one year, the local grocery store was selling “baseball bucks” gift cards, which could be redeemed anywhere in the park for merchandise, including beer.  So, before his shift, he would go to the grocery store, buy $1,000 of “baseball bucks”, earning the gasoline fuel points on his frequent shopper card, and pay for his cases of beer with $100 of the “baseball bucks”.  Buying $1,000 in baseball bucks at the grocery store EVERY game for 82 home games ($82k spend) netted his a LOT of fuel points…..he didn't have to pay for gas for like over a year!

Management at the ballpark caught wind after about a year, and not-so-politely asked him to discontinue this practice.

BECABECA

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2018, 11:46:23 AM »
gift card scam, misleading company about cost to break lease — unethical
pocketing roommate rent while living in company paid apartment, renting a Tesla — Not unethical, and perhaps even ethical...

The problem is with the company’s policies. I actually feel that it’s my responsibility to point out problems in policies, since this kind of open ended self-regulated policy results in very disparate treatment between employees that come from a priveledged standing (higher socio-economic background, white, straight, male, Ivy League education, etc.) vs. a less priveledged standing. If you have grown up with priveledged, then when a company says rent a car and doesn’t specify the class or daily price limit, more often you rent a more expensive car than the employee who hasn’t. Same with the apartment, if you live in a big house, you rent a place at the upper limit of what is designated without batting an eye, whereas someone who lives with roommates or in a tiny place feels guilty if they rent anything near the top end of the rental allowance. I know there will be some people who take offense at me pointing this out, but look at the statistics: a big part of the reason for the wage gap between male and female and between whites and minorities is due to not feeling like they can negotiate when getting a job offer, and not feeling like they deserve to ask for a promotion. Companies that have non-negotiable job offers and have promotions tied to seniority or other objective quantitative measures don’t have the same wage gap problems as companies that don’t.

So I like when company policies are written with specificity and apply the same monetary benefit to employees regardless of what they feel they deserve. Company meal benefits while traveling should be a fixed per diem, regardless of what the employee actually spends. Housing allowance should be a fixed amount per month regardless of what the employee actually spends. Same with rental cars. This would also have the unintended benefit of rewarding frugality, as opposed to rewarding the feeling of entitlement.

So rent a Tesla and pressure your company to change their policies!

Mrs.Piano

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2018, 12:20:14 PM »
Well said, BecaBeca, and I had never considered your points.

11ducks

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2018, 03:02:27 PM »
How did you feel when you got caught for the theft at your last job? Was there shame or regret, or did it not really bother you?

DoneFSO

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2018, 07:45:33 AM »
“Character is destiny.” – Heraclitus

Case

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2018, 01:05:00 PM »
@teltic
I find you honest. You are honest in being dishonest. I like it.
If I had to pick up someone as a friend I’d take someone like you 7 days a week over the impeccable ones.
There are so many hypocrites walking around, people who follow the rules but are full vanity, recklessness, envy etc.
Commendable citizens, miserable persons.

In my eyes you are a much better person than someone who is proud about himself due to his impeccability in following the rules.
In recognizing your fault you show that you have a conscience.
It’s not a common feature today.
Hoes’ll go up, Pharisee I don’t know.
In admitting your fault you show strength, courage, humility, honesty, sincerity, veracity.
Virtues.

Don’t mix up law (rules, external behaviour) with ethics (inner dispositions, inner attitudes).
Following the rules doesn’t mean that you are a good person.
Breaking the rules doesn’t make you necessarily a bad one (at least if you recognize it’s wrong).

Unethical mindset? Naturally unethical?
Having temptations is not unethical, is normal.
"The plan is to help my roommate transition to another place."
I know plenty of people, rules abiding citizens, who don’t give a bit about their fellows.
If they were here they'd start giving you advice in how to become a better person.

Except that this is an internet forum where everyone is anonymous.  Yea, real brave.

It's at least a positive step to acknowledge to yourself that you certain negative characteristics, or be willing to have the internal dialog. 

What's really impressive is when you acknowledge such faults, and then your change.  Not when you admit them to yourself, and then continue to be as you were.

ChpBstrd

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2018, 08:18:57 PM »
You know, the O.P. never described why she / he wants to have a more ethical mindset. This affects the advice we would give, so what is it? Here's a survey for the O.P.

I want to be more ethical because...
a) Being more ethical would make me more effective at getting money.
b) Being more ethical would reduce my risk of losing jobs, losing friends, going to jail, etc.
c) I have a personal discomfort with being unethical (AKA a conscience), but I keep thinking in an unethical direction.
d) These obsessive thoughts about how to game somebody's system are an annoyance.
e) Something else _______.

teltic

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2018, 10:00:14 AM »
I'm confused, you are moving out of the apartment and back to your original work location, but thinking of secretly subletting the company-paid apartment?  How is this feasible, much less a good idea?

The lease is under my name. Utilities is under my name.  My company cannot view my lease/bills/anything.  I simply submit bills and they reimburse it.  The idea of them using my last 3 months on my lease to put a new employee in is not going to happen.


How did you feel when you got caught for the theft at your last job? Was there shame or regret, or did it not really bother you?

Hmm... Shame.  I was embarrassed of being fired.  I'm better than that.  I'd never steal from an individual.  For some reason, I saw gift card churning as nothing more than a temporary bonus.  "I deserve it" mentality. 


You know, the O.P. never described why she / he wants to have a more ethical mindset. This affects the advice we would give, so what is it? Here's a survey for the O.P.

I want to be more ethical because...
a) Being more ethical would make me more effective at getting money.
b) Being more ethical would reduce my risk of losing jobs, losing friends, going to jail, etc.
c) I have a personal discomfort with being unethical (AKA a conscience), but I keep thinking in an unethical direction.
d) These obsessive thoughts about how to game somebody's system are an annoyance.
e) Something else _______.

It's a combination of a lot of them, honestly.  I want to be more ethical, because I could see this leading me to jail/losing my job and having something on my permanent record.  I do find a thrill of working the system and capitalizing on every loop hole (similar to credit card churning).  I've been thinking a lot about "what type of person do I want to be?  How do I want others to see me as?" kind of thought.  I don't want to be the guy who you are afraid to make a deal with.  I want to be more fair in life??  I don't know haha



ANOTHER UPDATE:  I originally decided to get my roommate out and to cut my lease.  On Monday, I went in to get the paperwork started (I know I have to give 30 days heads up, which would give my current roommate enough time to find a new spot).  That's when they told me it was $7700 to terminate... I notified my boss that we should let it run out, as it'll save the company.. He agreed.  I thought about it for 24 hours, until I decided to toss an ad on craigslist to see if I can find a short term roommate.  I found a new guy who needs to stay exactly 3 more months... His lease ends on Nov 7 at the exact apartment complex!

I feel like the stars aligned there. Yes, I'm taking risk in he could trash my place... For $1250 x 3 = $3750, I'm willing to take that risk.

With the cost of running out the lease being cheaper than terminating the lease, I feel like this is no longer an ethical issue. 

ChpBstrd

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2018, 11:00:43 AM »
Sounds good, in the sense that no money is wasted or taken away from somebody without them being given something of compensating value.

You are still taking a chance that the boss might try to put someone else from the company in there for a month or two (a trainee?, an auditor? his/her personal vacation? who knows?) or use the apartment as a storage unit for a very short term project. 

JetBlast

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2018, 09:09:27 PM »
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but are you allowed to sublet the apartment under the terms of your lease?

Also, you or the new tenant will pay the utilities, right?  I hope you’re not going to ask for reimbursement of the utilities from your company if you’re not living there.


Case

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2018, 05:27:08 AM »
I'm confused, you are moving out of the apartment and back to your original work location, but thinking of secretly subletting the company-paid apartment?  How is this feasible, much less a good idea?

The lease is under my name. Utilities is under my name.  My company cannot view my lease/bills/anything.  I simply submit bills and they reimburse it.  The idea of them using my last 3 months on my lease to put a new employee in is not going to happen.


How did you feel when you got caught for the theft at your last job? Was there shame or regret, or did it not really bother you?

Hmm... Shame.  I was embarrassed of being fired.  I'm better than that.  I'd never steal from an individual.  For some reason, I saw gift card churning as nothing more than a temporary bonus.  "I deserve it" mentality. 


You know, the O.P. never described why she / he wants to have a more ethical mindset. This affects the advice we would give, so what is it? Here's a survey for the O.P.

I want to be more ethical because...
a) Being more ethical would make me more effective at getting money.
b) Being more ethical would reduce my risk of losing jobs, losing friends, going to jail, etc.
c) I have a personal discomfort with being unethical (AKA a conscience), but I keep thinking in an unethical direction.
d) These obsessive thoughts about how to game somebody's system are an annoyance.
e) Something else _______.

It's a combination of a lot of them, honestly.  I want to be more ethical, because I could see this leading me to jail/losing my job and having something on my permanent record.  I do find a thrill of working the system and capitalizing on every loop hole (similar to credit card churning).  I've been thinking a lot about "what type of person do I want to be?  How do I want others to see me as?" kind of thought.  I don't want to be the guy who you are afraid to make a deal with.  I want to be more fair in life??  I don't know haha



ANOTHER UPDATE:  I originally decided to get my roommate out and to cut my lease.  On Monday, I went in to get the paperwork started (I know I have to give 30 days heads up, which would give my current roommate enough time to find a new spot).  That's when they told me it was $7700 to terminate... I notified my boss that we should let it run out, as it'll save the company.. He agreed.  I thought about it for 24 hours, until I decided to toss an ad on craigslist to see if I can find a short term roommate.  I found a new guy who needs to stay exactly 3 more months... His lease ends on Nov 7 at the exact apartment complex!

I feel like the stars aligned there. Yes, I'm taking risk in he could trash my place... For $1250 x 3 = $3750, I'm willing to take that risk.

With the cost of running out the lease being cheaper than terminating the lease, I feel like this is no longer an ethical issue.

To be totally honest, your level of addiction resembles that of a junkie. 

Samuel

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2018, 09:46:24 AM »
With the cost of running out the lease being cheaper than terminating the lease, I feel like this is no longer an ethical issue.

Incorrect. But getting closer...

teltic

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2018, 02:01:34 PM »
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but are you allowed to sublet the apartment under the terms of your lease?

Also, you or the new tenant will pay the utilities, right?  I hope you’re not going to ask for reimbursement of the utilities from your company if you’re not living there.

Ah, you caught me.  In my lease it does say I cannot sublease my apartment.  :|  But I did it anyway.

No, I do not plan to have my utilities reimbursed since I no longer live there.


Overall, I know I'm an unethical person.  I don't think I will get caught for this 3 month gig... But I seriously need to address this problem with myself. Therapy is most likely the answer to my problem... But I'm a greedy MF and don't want to pay for a therapist.


ChpBstrd

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2018, 08:16:54 PM »

Overall, I know I'm an unethical person.  I don't think I will get caught for this 3 month gig... But I seriously need to address this problem with myself. Therapy is most likely the answer to my problem... But I'm a greedy MF and don't want to pay for a therapist.

Might be a good investment. Many couples get into miserable divorces costing them tens of thousands of dollars but they've never stepped into a counselor's office because they don't want to pay the $25 copays. If you think that's obviously silly (me too) consider the parallels with your situation. What would be the earnings loss from a lost job or lawsuit? It might end up close to the cost of a divorce. Even worse, when a key promotion opportunity comes along that could affect your life by hundreds of thousands of dollars, will someone say "I don't know. I mean, Teltic gets his work done, but I'm just not sure I trust him at that level. Let's see who the recruiting firm comes up with."

BicycleB

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2018, 10:54:27 PM »
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but are you allowed to sublet the apartment under the terms of your lease?

Also, you or the new tenant will pay the utilities, right?  I hope you’re not going to ask for reimbursement of the utilities from your company if you’re not living there.

Ah, you caught me.  In my lease it does say I cannot sublease my apartment.  :|  But I did it anyway.

No, I do not plan to have my utilities reimbursed since I no longer live there.


Overall, I know I'm an unethical person.  I don't think I will get caught for this 3 month gig... But I seriously need to address this problem with myself. Therapy is most likely the answer to my problem... But I'm a greedy MF and don't want to pay for a therapist.

You want a bunch of stuff. When it comes to "this problem", what you get is what you earn. No free lunches for the soul.


GuitarStv

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #74 on: November 02, 2018, 07:43:53 AM »
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but are you allowed to sublet the apartment under the terms of your lease?

Also, you or the new tenant will pay the utilities, right?  I hope you’re not going to ask for reimbursement of the utilities from your company if you’re not living there.

Ah, you caught me.  In my lease it does say I cannot sublease my apartment.  :|  But I did it anyway.

No, I do not plan to have my utilities reimbursed since I no longer live there.


Overall, I know I'm an unethical person.  I don't think I will get caught for this 3 month gig... But I seriously need to address this problem with myself. Therapy is most likely the answer to my problem... But I'm a greedy MF and don't want to pay for a therapist.

Why not simply stalk and kidnap a therapist so you don't have to pay for one?  Therapists require minimum space and will last for several weeks given only water (protip - look for a fatter therapist to extend this period).  When your therapist dies, simply kidnap another one.  You can cut up the old one and feed it to the new one to extend therapy time the second go around.

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2018, 08:08:38 AM »
I just watched Clockwork Orange for the first time. Seemed like an adaptation of Crime and Punishment, or at least the work it was based on was heavily influenced by Dostoyevsky. Either one may be of interest to you, teltic.

BlueHouse

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2018, 02:15:49 PM »
The term "situational ethics" is the closest to what I think I am.  If "everyone's doing it" in my group, it seems to be an okay way to approach something.  But then I've ended up working for people who went to jail in multiple, unrelated companies.  One white collar, and one construction-related.  Is it really that "everyone's doing it?" or is that I allowed myself to stay in places where people were doing unethical things that turned out to be criminal? 

how to change:  What works for me is realizing that I don't like to be embarrassed by my behavior or even for my condoning other people's behavior.  So I ask myself how I would explain this to my mother, or to my best friends, or to a future employer.  Really anyone -- if I'm not embarrassed by the end result and I can defend what's happening, then go for it.  But if I can't, stop and walk away. 

By the way, this also applied to my dating life.  years ago, I was dating a "bad boy" and didn't want my mom to find out.  I knew it was short term and just fun, but my sister asked me "if you're not willing to let mom know, then why would you want to hang around this guy?"  It was eye-opening to me to realize that I'm worth as much as my mom thinks I am. 
And I am as good a person as my best friends think I am. 

Goldielocks

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2018, 02:54:39 PM »
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but are you allowed to sublet the apartment under the terms of your lease?

Also, you or the new tenant will pay the utilities, right?  I hope you’re not going to ask for reimbursement of the utilities from your company if you’re not living there.

Ah, you caught me.  In my lease it does say I cannot sublease my apartment.  :|  But I did it anyway.

No, I do not plan to have my utilities reimbursed since I no longer live there.


Overall, I know I'm an unethical person.  I don't think I will get caught for this 3 month gig... But I seriously need to address this problem with myself. Therapy is most likely the answer to my problem... But I'm a greedy MF and don't want to pay for a therapist.
Teltic - your employer expects you to put your "creative" mind to their best service, for anything slightly related to your employment or work expenses.

For example, in this situation, I would go to the employer, explain the facts about the lease, and then say that if they allow me to lease it out, I would remit $3000 of the $7200 back to them.

They have just saved $3000.  You have "earned" $4200" but had to do the work/ take the risk to get it.  Everyone knows everything, and no ethical quandry exists.


When it is something in your personal life - credit card hacking, legal tax loopholes, or other legal "scheme", you can go for it.  When it involves your job, ask your employer.   I would also suggest using your brain to think of ways that the employer could be saving a lot more money -- better contracts with vendors, different ways of putting work together.   Then when you identify it, ask for a small bonus if it works out.

For the gift card "Fraud" -- how different would it have been if you pointed out to the management that if you could get the cash customers to buy a gift card instead and get a "free $10" for the next visit?  You could ask for $2 for every gift card that you arranged.  The employer gets lots and lots of customers with gift cards that they will need to return (and buy more food) to use.

As an industrial engineer, this was my job for my employers.  I was paid to find opportunities worth at least 10x my salary.   My pay increased rapidly as I found (and realized) more and more opportunities for the employer.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 02:56:55 PM by Goldielocks »

JetBlast

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Re: I'm naturally unethical. How do I change?
« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2018, 03:16:31 PM »
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but are you allowed to sublet the apartment under the terms of your lease?

Also, you or the new tenant will pay the utilities, right?  I hope you’re not going to ask for reimbursement of the utilities from your company if you’re not living there.

Ah, you caught me.  In my lease it does say I cannot sublease my apartment.  :|  But I did it anyway.

No, I do not plan to have my utilities reimbursed since I no longer live there.


Overall, I know I'm an unethical person.  I don't think I will get caught for this 3 month gig... But I seriously need to address this problem with myself. Therapy is most likely the answer to my problem... But I'm a greedy MF and don't want to pay for a therapist.

Earlier you said you would never do anything that hurts someone else. I’d suggest you need to think harder about the second and third order effects of your decisions. Let’s take this sublease as an example.

Do you know how the apartment management feels about this other tenent?  Perhaps they’ve been a nuisance to the management or owners by paying rent late, causing excessive noise, trashing their current apartment, etc...  You don’t have the information to know this, but have taken the landlord’s right to choose their tenants away from them. Is that fair to the landlord?

Also, what does the landlord’s insurance say about covering damage from illegal tenants? Or yours? Or the new tenant’s? Imagine the legal mess if new tenant accidentally burns down the building and nobody’s insurance will pay because they were inhabiting the apartment illegally. Bad for you, bad for tenant, bad for landlord.

As to the larger issues surrounding money, you really need to spend some time being introspective about your lust for money. Maybe a therapist can help you get to the root of that issue.