The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: MarkM on February 23, 2014, 10:38:36 PM
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Okay, maybe I'm not cheap; I'm a thrifty, price-conscious non-consumerist, right? What happens when my spouse is not? It drives her crazy and causes me to become an annoying nit about her purchases.
Backstory: I've been "mustachian" long before this blog (but thanks for the outlet and ideas, MMM community). My parents have always been very frugal and it's long been ingrained in me. I've saved 60-70% of net pay every year since I've graduated college -- around 70% in 3 years pre marriage and around 60% in the 3 years post (including her income). I don't make a budget, it's just how the dust settles. At 28, our net worth is basically following MMM's trajectory, maybe a bit higher. Often, this is all very exciting and cause for celebration, but lately it's not been so fun. It's causing strain in my relationship with my wife.
It's easy being Mustachian when it's just you, but once you've got a spouse, it gets a lot trickier when your spending habits don't align. She's no super spender, probably just a normal consumer. I'm far from normal. I can't make a purchase or plans with friends or a trip to the store without analyzing the financial implications. She'll want to go out to dinner and I'll push for making something in. She'll want to go see a movie and I'll suggest snuggling up to Netflix. She'll want to buy a new dress for an upcoming wedding and I'll ask what's wrong with the ones she has.
Frankly, I just don't enjoy spending money on things. I've always been good with shelling out money for experiences and big trips with friends/family; it's the day to day little things that bother me. I can't help but nitpick the CC bill that has too many coffee shop visits or lunches out or whatever else seems unnecessary. We don't live a deprived life by any means...we've gone on some great international trips, take nice weekend trips with friends, live in a nice neighborhood, and so on. We're planning to buy a house soon and have kids so expenses will be on the rise. Anyhow, I/we need to get better at managing the day to day stuff. For starters, I need to be less of a micro-manager. Easier said than done.
There must be others of you with similar issues/dynamics. Provide me some perspective/advice.
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My wife and I aren't as far apart as you two seem to be, but I've definitely been more of the long-term investor in the relationship. All we do is just try to make allowances for what is comfortable for the other one.
We also keep our finances totally separate. She's stay-at-home-mom at the moment, but when we were both working, she would write me a check each month for her half of the bills, and I would pay all the bills. These days, I just don't get the check. Even now, she has a lot of savings that she's paying "her" bills out of, and I'm covering everything else. (Actually she pays the cell phone bill and one other thing.)
The move from DINK to SIOK (dual income no kids to single income one kid) has definitely pushed her in a more frugal direction, though. We actually last had restaurant food in December. Last year I was stopping by a certain red and gold clown-mascotted fast food place a couple times a week on the way home to pick up dinner.
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Feel like we need some AA atmosphere here.
"Hi, my name is MarkM, and I'm cheap."
Everyone: "Hi, MarkM."
Anyway.
Simplest maybe: You each have an agreed-upon amount of "mad money" each month. It's transferred to an individual account or credit card so you never see what she spent it on. You just let it go that her money isn't going to be saved.
Would that help?
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Does your wife have a job? As an unmarried, I don't have good advice, but it seems you should get this sorted out before you buy a home and have kids together. If she earns "her own" money, then maybe it's good enough to agree on separate finances. If not... well I've never been a big fan of the traditional "breadwinner" mentality.
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This is a really good example of a situation where separate finances would help. Assuming you both work.
There are lots of things my boyfriend buys that would raise my blood pressure if they were coming out of an account with my name attached to it, but I don't think twice about right now since we keep our own accounts. And he's still pretty mustachian - saves about 50% vs my 60-70% of take home. It would drive me insane looking at a credit card bill with my name on it that had something like coffee shop drinks on it.
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Did she know this about you before you were married? As in, did you opt for "cheap" dates instead of blowing gobs of money so it was pretty obvious that you are much more thrifty than average peeps?
I'm the cheap/frugal one and my husband was normal - but he's actually started being a bit more frugal since we've been married. He still spends money on things I'd not consider important but we worked out a few tricks to help me not freak out too much. We don't share checking accounts - we each have our own (still joint accounts, but one is mine and one is his) and we have separate cards for our own purchases. Either one of us can review the other's spending, but I try not to very often as long as the totals aren't crazy higher than average.
The other thing is to pick your battles and compromise. Eating out once a week or going out with friends since that makes her happy is a good compromise.
We set up a freebie type amount of money for personal spending - i.e. we each have $100 a month for no questions asked spending - so if he wants to go to coffee shops and eat out on that money, that's his choice and I don't care what he spends it on. It goes without saying that this should be a mutually agreed on amount and decision.
Large purchases should be mutually agreed on. You should also agree on what constitutes a "large" purchase.
But I think the best thing in your case is to sit down and talk to your wife. You need to really listen to her about what she feels is important, and understand that it's not right to push your savings and spending agenda ahead of hers if you're both technically doing well. Once you're married you have to consider the good of both parties.
You might want to do some reading over at http://earlyretirementextreme.com. I'm pretty sure that Jacob is ultra frugal, but his wife is not. I think they have separate finances so he's technically retired, while she's happy to keep working and saving for her own retirement.
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We have joint finances, but transfer a weekly allowance into our personal accounts to spend as we wish. This works fantastically well for us, and neither of us comments on the others personal spending.
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Feel like we need some AA atmosphere here.
"Hi, my name is MarkM, and I'm cheap."
Everyone: "Hi, MarkM."
Anyway.
Simplest maybe: You each have an agreed-upon amount of "mad money" each month. It's transferred to an individual account or credit card so you never see what she spent it on. You just let it go that her money isn't going to be saved.
Would that help?
Indeed, kind of felt like AA writing that post. I'm probably making this out to be more dramatic than it really is.
I'm familiar with the his, hers and ours type of family finance, or just set blow money and the like. But that's all just cover over the underlying issue of trying to find harmony in our finances. Just after we got married, we did it where we each got $100/month to spend on whenever. Then some months it wasn't enough, and we raised it to $150 or she'd just dig into the joint account. After awhile it just seemed silly and we moved to the one pot approach. Clearly this hasn't been perfect either. Our income tilts 80/20 to me so doing straight separate accounts wouldn't work well. That and I like to think as a couple we should be able to work it out as a single unit.
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Have to ask: how much of this is down to 'frugal', and how much to what your basic likes & dislikes are? As for instance, do you not go out to eat because of how much it costs, or because you just don't like eating out?
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I just found my internet twin, my name is also Mark btw. I am in the exact same position as you are except I have two kids and she's a SAHM. Everything in life is great except our finances and it's not because we have money troubles it's because we view it differently. She constantly says that I want to die with my money because I do scrutinize everything that we spend trying to constantly optimize things. Even when I back off and just follow our monthly budget she feels guilty about spending on conveniences because she is not earning money.
The only thing I can say is to try and be positive about the whole conversation instead of attacking/question her spending. I try to set and example, I switch to pre-paid and she did as well, I cook and bring lunch to work and she started eating out less. Slowly but surely we are getting there, but man is it slow. I always try to mention why I'm being so frugal and ask her to look at our long terms goals. And that sometimes the issue I think that is our goals when it's really just mine. So I have gotten better at asking her what she would like for our family and discuss how we can get there.
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Simplest maybe: You each have an agreed-upon amount of "mad money" each month. It's transferred to an individual account or credit card so you never see what she spent it on. You just let it go that her money isn't going to be saved.
+1
Both my paycheck and my wife's goes into our main checking account for bills, food, and all other budgeted stuff including savings. We allocate 100 to each of us in our monthly budget so that money gets transferred to personal accounts and is spent on whatever my wife or I wants. It has been working pretty great for us so far. I think a big part of our success has been just rolling with the unexpected punches, we have had some higher spending lately due to stuff her and there but we know that sometimes we will do great and sometimes the budget will get blown.
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Have to ask: how much of this is down to 'frugal', and how much to what you're basic likes & dislikes are? As for instance, do you not go out to eat because of how much it costs, or because you just don't like eating out?
I enjoy eating out. We went out last weekend and got a rack of bbq ribs. It was damn tasty. At the same time, I would have been more than happy not to spend $60 on a dinner for two that I could have prepared in our kitchen for under $10. Unfortunately, that's what I think about when I'm reading over the menu options.
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I just found my internet twin, my name is also Mark btw. I am in the exact same position as you are except I have two kids and she's a SAHM. Everything in life is great except our finances and it's not because we have money troubles it's because we view it differently. She constantly says that I want to die with my money because I do scrutinize everything that we spend trying to constantly optimize things. Even when I back off and just follow our monthly budget she feels guilty about spending on conveniences because she is not earning money.
To the t, man. Good to hear I'm not alone. It's a struggle and a process. Just been in a bit of funk lately. I'll blame it on the rough winter.
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Have to ask: how much of this is down to 'frugal', and how much to what you're basic likes & dislikes are? As for instance, do you not go out to eat because of how much it costs, or because you just don't like eating out?
I enjoy eating out. We went out last weekend and got a rack of bbq ribs. It was damn tasty. At the same time, I would have been more than happy not to spend $60 on a dinner I could have prepared for under $10.
Dang, now I want ribs....
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I was getting from the original post that you were okay with the amount of money going out, it was just driving you nuts what it was being spent on and you were trying to make peace with that. In which case, out of sight out of mind, might help, but ultimately you might have to adjust your attitude. Finances are something you should agree on, yes, but presumably you agree on a lot of things in terms of lifestyle and values, etc., without judging how your wife spends every minute of her day, for example.
Is your goal FI? And in which case have you shared the idea with your wife? She may not see what the point of the frugality is, in which case her behavior makes sense.
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I was getting from the original post that you were okay with the amount of money going out, it was just driving you nuts what it was being spent on and you were trying to make peace with that. In which case, out of sight out of mind, might help, but ultimately you might have to adjust your attitude. Finances are something you should agree on, yes, but presumably you agree on a lot of things in terms of lifestyle and values, etc., without judging how your wife spends every minute of her day, for example.
Is your goal FI? And in which case have you shared the idea with your wife? She may not see what the point of the frugality is, in which case her behavior makes sense.
FI isn't the singular goal, or at least shouldn't be. Yes, the sooner we're FI independent, the sooner I can leave the corporate rat race and pursue other interests without money being a driving factor. And yes, there's definitely a fine balance between aggressively driving towards FI and enjoying the here and now. I think that's where I struggle. Maybe I need to be okay with saving 40-50% of our income instead of 60-70%. The long-term is more apparent and of interest to me than my wife, that part is certainly true. I'm the more analytical, math-oriented one. She's much more social and enjoys the social aspect/interaction/people watching of going to coffee shops, restaurants, etc whereas to me it's more just $$ going out the window.
Anyhow, I'm appreciative of the ideas, stories and perspective you all have to share. Seems you frugal types can relate to where I"m coming from. :)
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What helped narrow the gap between my wife and I was to have discussions about our goals for the long term and what we can do to get there. What she thought was selfish behavior on my part was really just my way of accomplishing those goals, which included her and of course saving the world.
We have separate finances too, that helps. I earn 2/3 of the household income and she pays me her share of housing expenses but with our lifestyle that is just $200/mo, so it really doesn't matter who earns what, the vast majority goes into saving anyway. She buys a pair of shoes and a few evenings out with girlfriends each month, and I look the other way with only minor ribbing.
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As a stay at home, female, tends to spend more partner in my own marriage, here is my take:
1. You need to stop nit-picking and relax if it is within your agreed upon budget.
2. She needs to stay within the agreed upon budget.
If you agree that you each get 100$ a month for mad money as you called it, and another whatever for eating out, then let her spend it without comment. Keep your mouth shut until/unless she goes over. As the one who sometimes gets the crabbiness from my H (sometimes deserved, sometimes because he is out if touch with the cost of things, sometimes because he is stressed about something else and it comes out via financial complaining) it really sucks.
I wonder if you sit down with her and agree to completely keep your mouth shut and not judge her spending, as long as she agrees to stay within the agreed upon limit, I wonder if you will see better compliance to the budget. I know that is how it goes for me. If I know my h will complain either way, than why bother staying in the budget!
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How much is your wife and marriage worth to you financially speaking? Would you give up all your money to save her life? Let's assume the answers are along the lines of priceless and yes. Then why the heck are you nickel and diming your marriage? Is she and it not worth the difference between 60% and 50%? You're doing great financially regardless. Do you want to be the guy that ruins his marriage through nit-picking. Let her do the things she enjoys as you can easily afford them.
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What jumped out at me is your comment that you don't make a budget. I know many Mustachians don't, but I think that really works best either for single people or for couples that already have very similar values around spending (or time/ability to communicate regularly about financial decisions). Since your comments make it clear that you and your wife have different perspectives about your choices, you may need a more explicit plan and then the willingness to let go and follow the plan, even though it will include some compromises on your part too. On the other hand, it sounds like "If we make a budget and follow it then I promise to stop nagging you, honey" might be a welcome selling point on coming to an agreement.
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I think its important to have a discussion about alot of this before buying a house. As it been recorded money is one of the number one reasons for divorce and I am not implying you are on the course but it needs a talk. You also said you were saving 60-70% of your savings which is damn good so maybe there needs to be some give and take here. You cant change people BUT you can maybe get them come to your side a bit more. I have become the "Frugal" one in our family and though my wife is not a big spender the biggest thing is she like most people doesnt like to be questioned about expenses. What I found out the most helpful was just saying lets just keep things as they are but lets just keep track of everything spent. In our case though it took some time she has started and more and more each day i am listening to her talk about ways we can save. I found its more getting them to see than to just be preached too.
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Have to ask: how much of this is down to 'frugal', and how much to what you're basic likes & dislikes are? As for instance, do you not go out to eat because of how much it costs, or because you just don't like eating out?
I enjoy eating out. We went out last weekend and got a rack of bbq ribs. It was damn tasty. At the same time, I would have been more than happy not to spend $60 on a dinner for two that I could have prepared in our kitchen for under $10. Unfortunately, that's what I think about when I'm reading over the menu options.
Do you cook as much as she does? Part of why I wanted to go out was because I did not want to cook. Now that my husband cooks as much, if not more, I only really want to go out for what I can't make at home.
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As a stay at home, female, tends to spend more partner in my own marriage, here is my take:
1. You need to stop nit-picking and relax if it is within your agreed upon budget.
2. She needs to stay within the agreed upon budget.
If you agree that you each get 100$ a month for mad money as you called it, and another whatever for eating out, then let her spend it without comment. Keep your mouth shut until/unless she goes over. As the one who sometimes gets the crabbiness from my H (sometimes deserved, sometimes because he is out if touch with the cost of things, sometimes because he is stressed about something else and it comes out via financial complaining) it really sucks.
I wonder if you sit down with her and agree to completely keep your mouth shut and not judge her spending, as long as she agrees to stay within the agreed upon limit, I wonder if you will see better compliance to the budget. I know that is how it goes for me. If I know my h will complain either way, than why bother staying in the budget!
I agree that this would be the solution. First, come to a mutual agreement on the amount and have her use cash so that you don't cringe when you see the credit card statement that shows how it was spent. Psychologically, you will know in advance that that money will not be saved and she will know that she can spend it freely because there will be no paper trail.
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I have to admit, however, that I'm more like the OP. We are FIREd and are in pretty good shape financially. I love to go out to eat, but usually it only has value to me if the restaurant is going to provide something that I cannot or do not make for myself at home - sashimi would be a good example or other cuisine that I don't know how to make myself.
Yesterday, DH wanted to go out to get the breakfast special at one of the locally owned eateries. The special consists of two eggs, English muffin or toast, sausage or bacon and then of course we'd want coffee. I have a really hard time spending over $15 (after tax and tip) when I have all the same ingredients at home purchased when they were on sale - eggs for $1/dozen, bacon or sausage for $1-$2/lb., coffee for $1.99/lb., etc. I can make him the exact same breakfast at home for 1/10 the cost or less. It just seems silly to me to drive somewhere so that someone can make it for us when it's pretty darn easy to whip up at home. But that's me......
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I think you need to create a budget together. If you have been consistently saving 60-70% of your income, the two of you can easily work together and create a budget that will save over 50% of your income while allowing spending in areas that matter to her. Then as long as she stays within the budget, stop criticizing her spending.
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We have joint finances, but transfer a weekly allowance into our personal accounts to spend as we wish. This works fantastically well for us, and neither of us comments on the others personal spending.
Same boat here. We could retire today, as in 5 pm. We have cable because of DH. He gets (I know, I know, a facepunch here) the equivalent of $4500 annually for his fun money deposited into his personal account via direct deposit every 2 weeks. If it helps, we save about $131K per year, so this $4500 only adds 3.4% to our savings bottom line - it does not make or break retirement. He uses this for Zappos purchases for running gear, new running shoes, Vitamin Waters, books, travel to do his half-marathon out of state (he loves to run and read!). I never see the transactions because everything is maintained through his account and since it is direct deposited into his account, I don't have to begrudgingly transfer the funds each month, so I don't stress out with each transaction (I know I would totally stress out trying to do YNAB updates).
Our finances are merged though, other than this frivolous money. It's excessive and he knows that he is working right now (at 33) to continue to save to basically fund the lifestyle he wants (my retirement estimates do not include his fun money, just our necessities and some fudge factor for the what-ifs). He is ok with that. He knows he could quit today but only wants to do it on his terms.
For the sake of my marriage - which is more important to me than my spreadsheets and calculations - I just grin it and bear it. We have more than enough to save and to fund his personal fun money. It would be a different story if we were not even saving for retirement as most Americans are not. I would have more of a leg to stand on if we were barely getting by. He knows the tradeoffs and has worked with me on so many other cost cutting means, so I need to see the forest through the trees sometimes and try to remind myself of that. He also came into our marriage with a positive net worth, was always a saver, and no student loans (unlike my lovely $80K of debt and negative net worth I brought into our marriage). We have accomplished so much financially in the last 4 years of marriage!
He is an awesome husband (so supportive, kind, funny, committed to me and his daughter, works hard, we have a great relationship) and a great Dad (our daughter just dotes on her da-da and they spend good quality time together). Forest through the trees.
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I get where you're coming from as I'm the more frugal one in my relationship, and also the higher earner by about the same amount as you. I think we frugal types view nitpicking money as a way of maximizing efficiency (I welcome it!), but to normals we can come across as JUST nitpicking. I mean, would you want every bite that you take of, say carbs or sugar or salt, to be verbally critiqued by your spouse? While you're eating it? Any time you wanted to go to a thrift store or go hiking, would you want your spouse to immediately suggest something different like going to the mall or out to dinner? In a way that's like saying, "I don't like your idea, I want to do my thing instead." I think it can be less about money and more an issue of feeling steamrolled and not heard (or at least it was for us, sorry if I'm projecting-might be different for you guys).
I would ask how much my SO spent on coffees or sandwiches out, which I thought would be helpful to show him how much money was being wasted. He saw it as me policing his every behavior and breathing down his throat/judging him. Now I make all his lunches and I make dinner, so I know he doesn't HAVE to spend on that- but if he blows $20 on coffee I don't say a word. You just have to choose your battles. We do separate finances and split bills, I handle any unexpected major expenses due to our difference in income, but it is mostly even.
I think maybe a designated date night might be a good idea for you too- maybe every other week instead of every week, BUT with the catch that you aren't allowed to complain/mention how much is being spent. I've noticed even if I quip, "wow that's more than I thought it would be", it can cause additional tension, it's taken as a passive aggressive dig. After over a year of totally laying off about money I'm now finding my SO becoming more and more frugal on his own. Go figure.
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Have to ask: how much of this is down to 'frugal', and how much to what you're basic likes & dislikes are? As for instance, do you not go out to eat because of how much it costs, or because you just don't like eating out?
I enjoy eating out. We went out last weekend and got a rack of bbq ribs. It was damn tasty. At the same time, I would have been more than happy not to spend $60 on a dinner for two that I could have prepared in our kitchen for under $10. Unfortunately, that's what I think about when I'm reading over the menu options.
Do you cook as much as she does? Part of why I wanted to go out was because I did not want to cook. Now that my husband cooks as much, if not more, I only really want to go out for what I can't make at home.
Very good point here. Do you help her cook? A huge reason we save money in the grocery department is because I cook everything. He doesn't know how to cook except make boxed mac & cheese. If you knew how to cook a few dishes when she is feeling tired, that would help out too.
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Have to ask: how much of this is down to 'frugal', and how much to what you're basic likes & dislikes are? As for instance, do you not go out to eat because of how much it costs, or because you just don't like eating out?
I enjoy eating out. We went out last weekend and got a rack of bbq ribs. It was damn tasty. At the same time, I would have been more than happy not to spend $60 on a dinner for two that I could have prepared in our kitchen for under $10. Unfortunately, that's what I think about when I'm reading over the menu options.
Do you cook as much as she does? Part of why I wanted to go out was because I did not want to cook. Now that my husband cooks as much, if not more, I only really want to go out for what I can't make at home.
Very good point here. Do you help her cook? A huge reason we save money in the grocery department is because I cook everything. He doesn't know how to cook except make boxed mac & cheese. If you knew how to cook a few dishes when she is feeling tired, that would help out too.
I'll second this, if I don't cook for a week (like if I'm sick or something)- our food costs quadruple.
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I think this boils down to goals. If you're on the same page with where you want to be in the future & have developed a plan to get there, then complaining is only allowed if someone veers off the plan. If you don't have shared goals or a plan, each of you can do what you want individually & shouldn't expect the other to care.
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Listen to Elaine! You need to lay off. If you constantly suggest different, cheaper things, you may see it as optimizing, but your wife probably hears "I hate your suggestions, honey. Why don't we do only the things that I want instead?"
I also think that a budget would be a good idea; in addition, you need to base it on ACTUAL SPENDING, not what you think you should be spending. If you think $100/month for fun is fine but your wife has been spending more like $400/month, maybe start at $300 and see how it goes.
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I agree. I mostly need to shut my mouth and lay off. Easier said than done. Maybe just go over spending and goal tracking once a month or quarter and try not to mention otherwise.
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I know it's hard- I have no idea your personality types but we have found it easier to do money stuff via email. It's easier to say what you really mean, refer back to, and it never gets super charged emotional. Just a thought.
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Have to ask: how much of this is down to 'frugal', and how much to what you're basic likes & dislikes are? As for instance, do you not go out to eat because of how much it costs, or because you just don't like eating out?
I enjoy eating out. We went out last weekend and got a rack of bbq ribs. It was damn tasty. At the same time, I would have been more than happy not to spend $60 on a dinner for two that I could have prepared in our kitchen for under $10. Unfortunately, that's what I think about when I'm reading over the menu options.
Do you cook as much as she does? Part of why I wanted to go out was because I did not want to cook. Now that my husband cooks as much, if not more, I only really want to go out for what I can't make at home.
Very good point here. Do you help her cook? A huge reason we save money in the grocery department is because I cook everything. He doesn't know how to cook except make boxed mac & cheese. If you knew how to cook a few dishes when she is feeling tired, that would help out too.
We split meals duties pretty evenly. I tend to cook more on weekends since I work late during the week and get home a couple hours after her. Monday is usually leftovers night. We probably eat out once every other week.
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My short answer to this question is that I tell myself marriage counseling and/or divorce would be more expensive than X, where X is whatever nutty thing my DH wants to spend money on now.
My slightly longer answer is that I remind myself that there are plenty of things I enjoy spending money on, too. It happens to be the case that the ones I choose are invariably sensible and desirable, whereas those my DH chooses are invariably silly and frivolous ;), but hey, whatever.
My much longer answer is that when I married my DH he had virtually no savings and two college-bound kids we were planning to support (and did support) through college. At my insistence, we also planned to have more kids despite DH having had a vasectomy and after much expensive treatment and lots of failures and emotional distress (mine) had one. DH is a wonderful dad to all his kids, but at any moment I could have stopped treatment and saved a lot of our money, at no emotional cost to him (well, he'd have had a crazy and unhappy wife -- but I mean, other than a crazy and unhappy wife). Now instead of joining a carefree retirement he's a SAHD with primary child-fetching and -supervising responsibilities, and our relative freedom as a family is significantly constrained by the school calendar (and zero interest in homeschooling!). Meanwhile, though he's still hardly affluent (I am his FI), DH does now enjoy a pension (in which I have survivorship) that is a useful part of our short-term household budget and long-term financial plan. And as that description suggests, though I have no crystal ball, actuarial tables would tell you he can reasonably expect that fewer years remain in his lifespan than mine, so perhaps it's not surprising that he's not very interested in how much money I can stash in tax-sheltered retirement accounts.
Life's uncertain, and different people enjoy different things. If you're unhappy about particular aspects of your current life (e.g. you are working too many hours or have a job you hate) or your long-term trajectory (you will never reach FI), then you should talk to your wife about that and figure out a way to fix it. If you're content with most of the day-to-day and the long-term trend, you should quit worrying about the details.
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Just laying off can be hard. I'm in a similar financial position (more frugal than my husband and make twice what he does) and these are some things that help:
1) Is there anything you spend on that she doesn't? Be brutal here in your self-assessment. I drink and my husband doesn't, which is obviously an unnecessary expense that he doesn't share. I also spend a lot of money on riding horses. We both support this expense, it's nonconsumerist and helps my overall sanity (and may turn into a side gig eventually). However, every time I get mad about all of my husband's 7-11 trips, I remind myself that I also spend money on unnecessary things.
2) Track your spending via Mint (or whatever) and talk about it briefly. This can be as simple as forwarding the Mint monthly report to your spouse and saying "FYI, you spent $50 at 7-11 this month." It's hard for people to conceptualize how the small expenses add up and just having that information available to her may make a difference.
3) Sit down together to create a budget for costs that you think are unnecessary, like going to restaurants. Don't nitpick unless you go over that amount.
I think it's really easy to get caught up in being efficient, and yeah you would be able to be more efficient if you had full control over all the money going out. But, then you would be alone and unhappy! Just get on the same page as best you are able. This will mean BOTH of you have to compromise, even if you are technically "right" about the best financial moves. Set some goals and discuss how to work towards them.
If it makes you feel better, I think most married MMMers go through a phase where they suddenly want to maximize every cent they earn and their spouse is like - wait, what? We can't go out to dinner anymore? And, eventually we all learn how to compromise. You'll get there.
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I'll pile on as another one recommending the "mad money" approach, BUT you have to let her know that it's up to her to "manage" this. If she wants that $200 dress for a wedding but her fund is only $100, then she either goes negative for a month, or you say 'tough luck' you should have saved up for it. This is (more or less) what my wife and I do, except currently we have zero mad money other than side-business income because we have a hair-on-fire debt we need to pay off while interest is still deferred.
When you go out to eat, is it just you two or is it with friends? If it's just you two, a great way to save money is allow yourself to splurge on INGREDIENTS once a week. That means fresh fish/seafood. Nice steak. Whatever you like. It'll be at least 50% cheaper than any restaurant, especially if you order drinks when you go out. If it's with friends, do you live in a climate where you can eat outside? A cookout is cheap if you do it potluck, relaxing, and leaves very little "clean up" afterwards if you go paper plates, etc.
I personally hate eating out because it's a waste of money AND I can outcook most restaurants if I have the ingredient budget to match. (If we liked it, sushi/sashimi would be an exception there, but ack.)
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I agree with the poster that said plan on a date night. It's possible she just wants the experience of eating out somewhere to have a "date" vs. just staying home. Staying home a lot with no new experiences will make your relationship stale and just enhance the problem since you'll have nothing new to talk about. There will be a lot of those stay home nights coming up with kids and she is probably aware of this. Could you live with 2x a month, her choice, with no comments on spending as long as it is under, say $50? Of course free experiences such as parks and museums are good too but she will realize you are trying to make date night cheap and that might backfire.
Another idea is to do nothing else but put the nagging on a 3 month hiatus. Just resist the urge.
My SO was the type to nag for every spending choice I made (and many were bad, I admit since I had some outstanding credit card debt). The more he nagged, the more I enjoyed spending $5 on a secret coffee (ha ha ha ha ha) or a pair of shoes, particularly since I made more money. Once he stopped nagging, I was more interested in turning my finances around and I've been plugging away at the debt. I could see he was trying very hard not to nag so I decided to meet him halfway and try really hard not to spend and work to pay off the debt. We also get along much better because I don't feel like he's the money police.
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My wife is a Spender -- capital "s"!
But I've found that more and more she's coming to terms with what trading present consumption for future consumption means. For me, it really helped to have her seeing money add up. I pushed her to contribute more to her 401k, and with the market uptick the past few years, she's seeing it add up. Our joing savings account (everything else is still separate) has grown and she's liking that too. And I show her my 401k number annually, to which I've contributed more aggressively and a bit longer than she has to hers, to show her how such a strategy pays off. Seeing the concrete results of saving and investing has made a great impression on her. Which is not to say that she still doesn't like to spend, but each time she does, I point out what that means to her/our accounts. She's come a long way.
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We've struggled with this a fair amount over the years as well. I give a lot of credit to the missus, we've made a lot of changes the past year and she has gone along willingly for the most part. But given all that, I am still willing to be more frugal in places she is just not prepared to go.
You need to let some of this go (and she may need to as well). You are making and saving good coin, so taking her out a few times a month (within reason) isn't going to set you back much in the long run. I hear you about the $60 dinner, I often feel the same way. So make that $60 count by planning really good dates, something both of you will truly enjoy. Eating out because you don't feel like cooking doesn't count (and should be treated as points in your favor), eating out as date night does.
Think about it this way. You pay your taxes and you may cringe at your tax rate, but there isn't a whole lot you can do about it, right? So it doesn't keep you up at night, it is what it is. That may be the attitude to take with the missus as well. Clearly she isn't pushing too hard to blow the budget given how much you are saving, so give her a break on the mostly small stuff. Think of it as a built-in expense that comes as a part of a happy marriage.
Easier said than done sometimes, I know.
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I think you need to create a budget together. If you have been consistently saving 60-70% of your income, the two of you can easily work together and create a budget that will save over 50% of your income while allowing spending in areas that matter to her. Then as long as she stays within the budget, stop criticizing her spending.
You might try flipping the budget on its head. Instead of planning out $X for groceries, $Y for eating out, $Z for fun money, and then arguing about how much is spent in each category, you determine a saving percentage -- 50% or 60% or whatever goes directly into investment accounts. $X amount covers mortgage, heating bills, insurance, groceries, etc., and then anything left over is fun money, to be spent ANY WAY SHE WANTS. You meet your financial goals, she isn't being nagged to pinch every penny.
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I agree with all the others on set amount of money per month and having a budget. The budget is absolutely key, if you can't show where the money is going/allocated, it is hard to stay on track. The social spending can be difficult to deal with, maybe give her a bigger budget than you give yourself? Luckily I never wanted to join the gym/starbucks/shopping mommy crowd when the kiddo was young or I certainly could have seen my spending increase substantially.
I am more frugal than my husband, but we save 50% of our income. Since we can't quit our jobs until the kiddo is out of college, we don't have as tight of a budget as I might want or that wouldn't earn me some facepunches. Would I like to save more, of course, but at least he is 80% to 90% on board, could be worse. I've often earned more and do right now, but don't really take that into account. I'm of the our money approach since it seems like the mine and yours just leads to issues.
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I'll tell you a story.
When DH and I were first married, I was a very messy person. Piles of paper everywhere. He never nagged me. Over time, I saw the benefits of his tidy habits and began adopting them. Years later, I'm as tidy as he is.
When I asked him why he didn't give me more hell for being such a slob back in the day, he shrugged and said "I decided that I could have a clean house, or I could be married to you. The latter was more important to me."
The advice about budgeting and communication is great. Do those things. Just keep in mind what is more important to you. :)
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I think it's a good idea to plan say two official date nights a month and I accept that we'll drop some decent coin on it. At least shows I'm giving some.
I probably just need to realize that the 60-70% savings rate isn't going to be sustainable going forward, at least not keeping everyone happy. If nothing else, 6 years of that has gotten us off to a great start.
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This is the reason that having a budget is so important for our marriage - we're cheap and spendy in different areas. So the budget maintains a balance between them and recognizes that 90+% of the "eating out" spending is going to be initiated by Mr PoP, but that 100% of the spending on things like cleaning supplies or home decor are going to be initiated by me. We spent too much time criticizing the others' spending in these areas early in our marriage - we make enough money that we can have the freedom to spend in these areas (and account for spending in these areas in FI), without seriously impinging on our savings goals or happiness, so why let it?
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This is the reason that having a budget is so important for our marriage - we're cheap and spendy in different areas. So the budget maintains a balance between them and recognizes that 90+% of the "eating out" spending is going to be initiated by Mr PoP, but that 100% of the spending on things like cleaning supplies or home decor are going to be initiated by me. We spent too much time criticizing the others' spending in these areas early in our marriage - we make enough money that we can have the freedom to spend in these areas (and account for spending in these areas in FI), without seriously impinging on our savings goals or happiness, so why let it?
Your splurge item is cleaning supplies? Ha, and I thought I was cheap. ;)
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I'm familiar with the his, hers and ours type of family finance, or just set blow money and the like. But that's all just cover over the underlying issue of trying to find harmony in our finances. Just after we got married, we did it where we each got $100/month to spend on whenever. Then some months it wasn't enough, and we raised it to $150 or she'd just dig into the joint account.
!?!!!
Trying to find harmony in your finances includes sticking to what you jointly decide. It's kinda a bigger issue than money if you make decisions together and she reneges on them. You might want to sort that out prior to kids.
After awhile it just seemed silly and we moved to the one pot approach. Clearly this hasn't been perfect either. Our income tilts 80/20 to me so doing straight separate accounts wouldn't work well. That and I like to think as a couple we should be able to work it out as a single unit.
I live in a his, hers, and ours household, but I'm also not married to my roommate, who is just my best friend that I've known for a long time. It's actually a hers, hers, and ours setup.
I'm probably being dense, but I don't understand why straight separate accounts wouldn't work. I make X. My roommate makes Y. We each kick in half of whatever was jointly spent in December on Jan 1 (we refill an account up to Z when we are paid monthly). I have X minus whatever my half of expenses is. She has Y minus expenses. If she goes out and buys stuff, I don't really care. Vice versa.
We don't have any shared financial goals, which is a big difference, and that may negate how much my situation would apply to yours. She knows that I want to FIRE at some point, and she really just doesn't have much interest in it (mostly because she's not at all a fan of investing money). She's more frugal than I am, but my (unrealized) investment gains are a significant percentage of my income now.
Like just about everybody else on this thread, I think that you need to talk to her about your joint goals for your joint money.
ME BEING EXTREME: Debt is stealing from your future self. Taking extra fun money (!!!!!!!) is stealing from your joint retirement ability. If she's fine with working until 65, then you may need separate finances.
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Do you think your spouse would read 'Your Money or Your Life' or a similar book? Getting the idea of freedom and what I could do instead really helped me kick the consumerism habit. I stopped eating out and other habits that were costing me a lot of money. I still do buy things but I am really choosy about what items I purchase.
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Have to ask: how much of this is down to 'frugal', and how much to what you're basic likes & dislikes are? As for instance, do you not go out to eat because of how much it costs, or because you just don't like eating out?
I enjoy eating out. We went out last weekend and got a rack of bbq ribs. It was damn tasty. At the same time, I would have been more than happy not to spend $60 on a dinner for two that I could have prepared in our kitchen for under $10. Unfortunately, that's what I think about when I'm reading over the menu options.
Do you cook as much as she does? Part of why I wanted to go out was because I did not want to cook. Now that my husband cooks as much, if not more, I only really want to go out for what I can't make at home.
Very good point here. Do you help her cook? A huge reason we save money in the grocery department is because I cook everything. He doesn't know how to cook except make boxed mac & cheese. If you knew how to cook a few dishes when she is feeling tired, that would help out too.
We split meals duties pretty evenly. I tend to cook more on weekends since I work late during the week and get home a couple hours after her. Monday is usually leftovers night. We probably eat out once every other week.
I'd start making a crockpot meal one night a week that she can plug in, in the morning. Might help for week days.
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I know it's hard- I have no idea your personality types but we have found it easier to do money stuff via email. It's easier to say what you really mean, refer back to, and it never gets super charged emotional. Just a thought.
That's funny. We "talk" money via email too. Then everyone can have their initial, emotional reaction in private.
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A few people are suggesting having financial conversations via email... I can see how that would work well with some spouses. On the flipside, my partner is a sensitive soul and finds that having conversations which already stress him out in a very impersonal/hard format like email just adds to the stress. He much prefers it if we discuss money stuff in person, so that he has the reassurance of seeing my facial expressions, hearing my tone of voice, maybe having my arm around him, to show him that there's no problem - it really is just a chat about money, I'm definitely not angry about anything, etc.
So depending on the kind of person your wife is, she may want to discuss money while cuddling/getting reassurance of love and acceptance, rather than getting emails about her spending habits. I think this is especially true when it seems like she already feels judged - no one wants their partner to be angry at them.
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Some ideas:
Pick your battles.
Realize that you two may value things differently. You might see a $4 coffee as a waste, she might see it as $4 well spent because she got to develop a friendship over a cup o' joe.
My bf is like your wife. I would never go to the movies if it wasn't for him, and sometimes I have to remind myself that it's kind of nice that I have someone that inspires variety in my leisure time.
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I am so glad to see this post, I thought about doing a similar one myself many times. I am in the same boat except I'd say I"m cheaper/frugal and I believe in FI and my husband simply does not at least not the way we do on this blog. He thinks his plan to retire at 60 is early. In our case we are DINKS and he makes more money than me but in Mr. Money Mustaches' terms our combined income is in my opinion RIDICULOUS whereas my husband just thinks it's normal for our area. I've tried to show him that we have the ability to curb our spending, and stop the whole upgrade lifestyle pattern, and retire in like 5 years if we put out heads together but he thinks I'm dreaming. So my current plan of action is to plan on FI for myself in 5 -6 years. My plan is to save on my own such that I can provide my share of the expenses in the exact same % that I do now when I retire and have that be a 4% withdrawal rate of my total savings. I am also factoring in kids into this scenario as well. That way, I'm not adding any extra burden to him so he can't contest my decision to be FI. Now, he has said that if I can pull that off then he will just follow me shortly there after - and even though that is very frustrating to me b/c I know that we could do it faster together - that's where we are so that's what I"m going to deal with.
My current plan for dealing with his need to spend more than me is to "BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE IN THE WORLD" except for me it's more like "be the change you want to see in your husband". :) I am cheap and frugal at heart but my normal is not up to par with MMM community and I want it to be desperately so in those terms I have a lot of catching up to do and so when I get frustrated with what he's spending money on or how he's wasting money (i.e. leaving lights on) I just turn inward and check on my own behavior b/c #1 : I'm not perfect and I always have much room for improvement and #2 I notice that the better I am, the more ridiculous he looks and eventually he changes SOME of his behavior.
we can't change other people, we can only change ourselves, so my plan is to change myself right into FI and hope that he follows me quickly behind. And like you - I am also trying to get all of this done before kids b/c like Mr. MM suggested, it's way easier to deal with these issues now rather than when you add in a little person too.
Thanks for sharing, let's all stick together on this blog on this one - this blog helps A LOT with this issue - makes me feel not so alone in my financial goals that are so terribly different from the majority middle class.
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How much is your wife and marriage worth to you financially speaking? Would you give up all your money to save her life? Let's assume the answers are along the lines of priceless and yes. Then why the heck are you nickel and diming your marriage? Is she and it not worth the difference between 60% and 50%? You're doing great financially regardless. Do you want to be the guy that ruins his marriage through nit-picking. Let her do the things she enjoys as you can easily afford them.
Related story to illustrate a point for you to consider - I used to fret about give the DW a tough time over 1 or 2 degrees on the thermostat. It would make DW happy to be warmer or cooler, but I was concerned about a buck or two more on the electric bill at the end of the month. Then she got sick (not related to the temperature of course). I cared for and loved her hard for 9 more years, and then she died at 43 years old. During that 9 years I learned what was important and what wasn't.
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Going back to the original post and follow-ups, it sounds like this is about conflict management more than about spending. You really need to sort this out before you have kids. Is she going to want to spend money on stuff for the kid? (cute baby blankets?) Will that drive you mad? It's easy when it's pending on yourself / your spouse. It's way harder when it's about spending on your kid.
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Rollin, I'm so sorry for your loss. It makes you remember what is important.
Mark M, I think you're doing amazing with your savings. But yeah, if she's not ok with saving at that intense rate, then I think it's important to compromise. Even at a lower rate, that's super. I'd love it if my partner were even half this diligent. I empathize with your struggling to find a balance between the two of you. You don't want resentment growing over the years. It makes me think of plaque building in an artery. I like compromise and the idea of each person getting a personal fund to spend as they wish. Autonomy and all. Good luck.
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Rollin, I'm so sorry for your loss. It makes you remember what is important.
Mark M, I think you're doing amazing with your savings. But yeah, if she's not ok with saving at that intense rate, then I think it's important to compromise. Even at a lower rate, that's super. I'd love it if my partner were even half this diligent. I empathize with your struggling to find a balance between the two of you. You don't want resentment growing over the years. It makes me think of plaque building in an artery. I like compromise and the idea of each person getting a personal fund to spend as they wish. Autonomy and all. Good luck.
Pell mell - thank you. What I typed may appear dramatic, but I was hoping for the OP to take some of my experience and use it in his world today. Maybe others could benefit too, without having to have such a drastic experience. I must say that along with the bad experience there was also some very good times, and some very good lessons.
You may not be aware of this, but your second paragraph above really takes what I was getting at and puts it into good words. Compromise (without resentment) is partly what I was going for. Someone earlier also posted about the difference between saying they need to cutback on restaurants and the DH hearing NO MORE FROM HERE. It's best to communicate, state your preferences (if you really have them), and let the other person adjust if they feel they want to. Sometimes people see it your way, sometimes they don't, but most times it takes longer than you think. Mostly, you cannot control others.
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Have you considered bringing up the idea of a side-gig if she wants to spend more than the agreed-upon amount of "fun money" each month? That's something that has worked well for us.
If I want to plan something expensive for myself, I look for extra ways to make some cash that I can blow without (much) remorse. It doesn't change our savings rate, so I don't feel guilty about it. Same with my husband; when he wants extra money for his hobbies, he picks up a short-term teaching/tutoring gig on the side until he makes enough cash.
That might be a way to make everyone happy.
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FI is our main goal and it is challenging when weighing if we want to have a child. My SO and I want to leave the corporate workforce and at times she wants a child. However as much as she wants FI, we both realize she needs to save a ton more after buying more house than she could afford. :( Individually I can save 70%+, but together just 30%. Like many I'm a reformed spender; I now for value in purchases. I only stopped spending senselessly within the last decade. So I empathize it is hard for my SO to change her bad money habits. That said, she has GREATLY improved since we first met! :) She now saves 12% (or is it 15% not sure) of her income to her 401k. She has managed to save more thanks to my encouragement and reduced her overhead expenses thanks to me aggressively encouraging/advertising her place and securing good renters in her house too. We're even working to sell her stuff around the house to free up space and money. :) The rest of her income is spent on overhead like mortgage/property taxes, dog and her 17 yr old baby, sister. I should note her situation is a bit unique. Her parents abandoned her younger sister and don't live in the US. Quite irresponsible behavior and these deadbeats who do not help financially taking care of their own child. My SO feels the need to take care of her sister (hence the house purchase). Overall, a very tough situation for my SO and one that prevents her from saving more.
My SO told me I am the first person who held her accountable and repeatedly encouraged her to take charge of her finances, this has not been easy. Huge learning curve. I observe she still has maddening streaks of spending emotionally, but I do not nag; I just bite my lips and do not participate. Grr. This back peddling causes immense strains on our relationship. When the two of us eat out more than twice a week, it hurts the budget and my ability to save for a trip for us. I should also note usually M-Th we eat at home; we cook together and I take care of the dishes. Eating at home is a big improvement! We use to always only eat out. Forgot to mention I pay for the rent, utilities, internet, and other costs associated with the rental, like increased commuting costs by train and car (gas) for living further away from work (three hours round trip). These costs put a strain on me too. :( Alas, not all is not gloom and doom, she helps by paying for our groceries.
As such I definitely can relate to other partners in this thread who are desperately trying to be frugal and keep their expenses down as much as possible. All of these type of stressors in our relationship has resulted in my desire not to merging our finances together. I see no benefit whatsoever. Mainly because separately, we are already struggling with just handling our expenses individually. How can or will combining the incomes into one remotely help? Does anyone else have this kind of experience? How have you created balance? Or does just one person manage the finances? Do you keep things separate? Looking forward to hearing others success stories. Thanks.
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My wife and I are in the same boat, except she is the frugal one and I am the spender. Currently we are FI, but not RE yet (we love our jobs). I am the one who tracks our cash flow and I allocate it. She rarely checks the accounts or CC bills. It doesn't however give me free reign to spend because I am subject to surprise audits. I've learned from the past that I can't go charging willy nilly without some repercussions.
I have fairly expensive hobbies: my computers, hi-fi audio and photography. Although I have pretty nice gear, I am on an endless upgrade cycle that frustrates my wife to no end.
We have tried the mad money approach, but like you, it didn't work out very well. Currently we just pool our money. Whenever I want to make a purchase over $10, I get her permission in email or txt message. This usually leads to a "why on earth do you want THAT?!" [euphemism] discussion [/eupehmism] so whenever I request something, I have to think whether it is worth fighting for. So this method kind of mitigates the impulse buys.
I'm not sure if it would work with you and your situation. If you're talking about 20 trips a month to the coffee shop, it could get pretty irritating on both sides. But the main point is to try to figure out someway to control the impulse spending.
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i love this thread! its a much needed insight in mine too, i agree with the emailing of the emotions part, i write a letter to my husband when i get frustrated about something, instead of confronting, i vent it out on email., and afterwards, i feel much better, i come home as me and not a brewing monster waiting to explode.
we did have a new 'hideout' though, we created a secret group on facebook, just him and me hahaha we post stuff there, and comment on it, anything from bills, to events, to good deals, or future vacation spots, coolest thing is all the link will be there and we get to discuss about it together and not wait till at night when were both exhausted from work and kids.
i handle all the bills, and post the big ticket stuff on our hideout on FB for him to see, i even have a little spreadsheet saved there, he doesnt really comment on it coz he thinks making extra payments on debts is ridiculous but he lets me be, i guess marriage is more important to him too, than questioning why im making a career out of paying bills.
its a work in progress, i want things, he wants more things, but bottomline is we compromise, if its not on the budget, well include it in the next, it gets off hand sometimes, its a victory on other times, but what matters is, you both try to work it out, just talk it out or EMAIL your feelings to her, it helps.