Author Topic: How do you handle discrimination at work?  (Read 22560 times)

DeltaBond

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2015, 09:49:35 AM »
Are you completely opposed to moving??

DoubleDown

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2015, 10:54:39 AM »
An angle I haven't seen addressed so far is that unless you stand up for yourself, it's safe to say the situation there will never improve. You will always be a target for them.

There's already been lots of good advice on the legal/moving/etc. options, but I'd suggest you also consider giving sh*t right back to your tormenters. I don't mean doing what they do (harassment), or stooping to their level, but giving them some "good-natured" ribbing right back at them. This tends to disarm "good ol' boy" tormenters, and even can win them over to liking you. Example: They say you must be blowing the boss under the desk, you tell them they must have been watching. They say you're gay, you say "Yup I sure am gay and happy today, you definitely look GAY and happy too." Say it with confidence and a smile, like you're joking with an old friend.

It might seem crazy, but bullies like yours warm up quickly to guys that give them some good-natured but firm ribbing back. If you don't give it back at them, they figure you're not one of them, and you're weak (and therefore should be tormented some more). There are lots of examples out there -- city vs. country folk, officers and enlisted, blue collar and white collar -- the outsiders will be treated with contempt until the mainstream group sees them doing some of the same things they do.

I once had a situation where I entered a job as an outsider. The profession was very much a "tough guy" one, with lots of danger and bravado and locker room talk/antics. Then comes me: a white collar guy of medium build/height entering a job full of badass, tough blue collar types, and I was treated as an outsider. They only dealt with me in the minimum way required, completely shutting me out of anything else. One day the guys were joking around and swearing with each other, as usual (not including me). One guy who was about 6'3 and 300 lbs. was telling the others some story about how he messed up something he was working on with his car over the weekend. Out of nowhere I looked at him (all 160 lbs. of me) and said, "You must be some stupid fucking asshole." He looked at me for a second in disbelief, then bust out laughing along with the others. After that I was included -- I was "one of the guys" and ended up being good friends with quite a few of them. I realize your situation is different, but the same principle can apply.

Disclaimer: I am not in any way condoning what your tormenters are doing, or suggesting you should end up being friends with them. It's f*ed up. I'm merely pointing out the reality that they will continue to treat you like an outsider unless you stand up to them with some more "kidding around" back at them.

Gin1984

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2015, 11:37:21 AM »
An angle I haven't seen addressed so far is that unless you stand up for yourself, it's safe to say the situation there will never improve. You will always be a target for them.

There's already been lots of good advice on the legal/moving/etc. options, but I'd suggest you also consider giving sh*t right back to your tormenters. I don't mean doing what they do (harassment), or stooping to their level, but giving them some "good-natured" ribbing right back at them. This tends to disarm "good ol' boy" tormenters, and even can win them over to liking you. Example: They say you must be blowing the boss under the desk, you tell them they must have been watching. They say you're gay, you say "Yup I sure am gay and happy today, you definitely look GAY and happy too." Say it with confidence and a smile, like you're joking with an old friend.

It might seem crazy, but bullies like yours warm up quickly to guys that give them some good-natured but firm ribbing back. If you don't give it back at them, they figure you're not one of them, and you're weak (and therefore should be tormented some more). There are lots of examples out there -- city vs. country folk, officers and enlisted, blue collar and white collar -- the outsiders will be treated with contempt until the mainstream group sees them doing some of the same things they do.

I once had a situation where I entered a job as an outsider. The profession was very much a "tough guy" one, with lots of danger and bravado and locker room talk/antics. Then comes me: a white collar guy of medium build/height entering a job full of badass, tough blue collar types, and I was treated as an outsider. They only dealt with me in the minimum way required, completely shutting me out of anything else. One day the guys were joking around and swearing with each other, as usual (not including me). One guy who was about 6'3 and 300 lbs. was telling the others some story about how he messed up something he was working on with his car over the weekend. Out of nowhere I looked at him (all 160 lbs. of me) and said, "You must be some stupid fucking asshole." He looked at me for a second in disbelief, then bust out laughing along with the others. After that I was included -- I was "one of the guys" and ended up being good friends with quite a few of them. I realize your situation is different, but the same principle can apply.

Disclaimer: I am not in any way condoning what your tormenters are doing, or suggesting you should end up being friends with them. It's f*ed up. I'm merely pointing out the reality that they will continue to treat you like an outsider unless you stand up to them with some more "kidding around" back at them.
The is a major difference when they doing things that indicate a possibility of physical danger vs just not liking you.  What you are suggesting could cause a serious escalation, all the while removing any chance of legal remedies because now, they have a "but we were just joking, he jokes back" excuse..

DoubleDown

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2015, 12:36:48 PM »

The is a major difference when they doing things that indicate a possibility of physical danger vs just not liking you.  What you are suggesting could cause a serious escalation, all the while removing any chance of legal remedies because now, they have a "but we were just joking, he jokes back" excuse..

I didn't see any mention of physical threats made to the OP. If I missed that, then I agree that I wouldn't "joke" back with them. But if they are not physically threatening him and instead calling him gay, harassing him verbally, writing on the walls, I stand by my advice. I also disagree that talking back at them will detract in any way from legal remedies or diminish the seriousness of the harassment. They're in the wrong, no ifs and or buts about it. They won't get a pass just because he talks back at them (note I was careful to advise NOT harassing back).

Also, my advice was only for if the OP stays put. As I said, if he stays put there and doesn't change the dynamic, it's going to suck and not change. He can likely change the dynamic by letting them know he's not one to be picked on, that he can dish it right back and not be hurt by it (even if it really does hurt). Then they'll likely let up. If they don't let up, he still has all the other avenues available (file harassment claims, move, etc.).

OP has already considered carrying a gun, so I have no concerns about escalation. That is, that potential is already there. Saying something back to them is likely to DE-escalate. And he is guaranteed to continue being the object of their torment unless he changes things.

irishbear99

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2015, 05:36:55 PM »
I'm so sorry you're going through this. No one should have to.

Have you considered filing a complaint with the EEOC? I understand you don't want to make waves and would like to resolve this through your union, but it doesn't seem to be working as well (or at least as fast) as it should. I agree with the others who said the bathroom should have been repainted overnight. A week or longer? Unacceptable.

Also, you've mentioned that your work is suffering from the stress you're under, which could potentially open you up to being let go due to performance reasons. (Or, at least your employer using "performance reasons" as an excuse to let you go.) Whereas if you are let go after filing a formal complaint, you'd have a pretty good case for showing reprisal, which is also illegal.

Bottom line, if you feel like (or ever get to the point where you feel like) your physical safety is in jeapordy, please, please take immediate, formal action (via EEOC, lawsuit, HR or other formal complaint) and take whatever actions you need to protect yourself. Hang in there!

BlueHouse

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2015, 06:00:09 PM »
sorry for your troubles. because you are presumably interested in early retirement, my focus would be on getting any future instances to happen in front of management.  Get as many people involved as witnesses as possible.
And then sue management AND the union. 
then retire.  Or at least take the money and move out of that craphole dying town and get to another town where people are more tolerant. 
Best wishes for a better life. 

StartingEarly

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2015, 06:19:18 PM »
The other side decided to put it all out in the open by making false accusations that I was making threats to people.  Seems like they were trying to put up a smoke screen to protect their guy.  This ended up getting me hauled into the office and having to play defense when I have done nothing wrong.  I had to repeatedly (literally 4 or 5 times) tell management that I didn't make threats against a past supervisor who hasn't been there since before August, tell them I didn't threaten to hit someone with a yard stick over the head, tell them I didn't have a list and didn't tell anyone they were on said imaginary list that someone pulled out of their ass, and the icing on the whole cluster fuck cake, I had to tell them at least three times that I didn't threaten to "paint the tree pink" I googled it, it has absolutely no meaning and I am convinced my coworkers are losing their minds.

It ended up being management after following through on their investigation of the false threats didn't think it was a good idea to try and discipline me for them (the only smart thing at this point considering one of their underlings witnessed one of the past incidents).  They're doing a whole lot of lip service saying they're going to take care of things and I am not buying any of it at this point, but unless I want a multi year lawsuit that's where I am at.  The union is saying that because of how I interact with people that the burden of getting along is more on me than them which pisses me off to no end.

The main perpetrator and his friend who witnesses his threat against me both lied when asked in front of management.  Management did not interview my direct supervisor who on multiple occasions heard the main perpetrator telling everyone I had AIDS. 

At this point I am pretty unhappy with how everything is being handled, but feel I don't have much recourse unless I want to have a multi-year legal battle.

Allie

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2015, 07:55:23 PM »
Fuck that.  You have plenty of recourse.  Don't you dare let them threaten you and pressure you into thinking you have to put up with any of this.  Most managers have no idea what your rights as an employee actually are, these guys clearly don't because they have made a mess of it.

Imagine if they were doing the same thing to a woman, or a person of another ethnicity.  Would you ever recommend a woman grin and bear it if they called her the c word, or an African American man if they called him the n word, and made references to inappropriate sexual activities?  I would hope not.  No one deserves to be threatened.

I am not a corporate attorney but I know a very good one very well.  When (don't even think if at this point) you file complaints with your municipality, county, state, and federal agencies/rights commissions, you will be afforded all of the protections and assistance with your case and they will have to provide their defense.  Yes, these cases can drag on forever, but it will cost them a ton if it does and it will cost you nothing but a measure of grief.  When they procure an attorney, he will likely go back to his law firm complaining about how poorly this was handled and how difficult they have made their defense.  Take your settlement and go find a better job. 

I hope you documented their response well.  Good luck! 

StartingEarly

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2015, 10:41:46 AM »
Unfourtunately management's response was they were going to do all they could going forward.  They just didn't deem discipline beyond verbal to be necessary.

The union is the one saying I bear the brunt of the responsibility to get along with people and that I can't expect an apology.

Gin1984

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2015, 10:53:34 AM »
Unfourtunately management's response was they were going to do all they could going forward.  They just didn't deem discipline beyond verbal to be necessary.

The union is the one saying I bear the brunt of the responsibility to get along with people and that I can't expect an apology.
I am pretty pro-union but I agree this is fucked up.  However, unless you have proof of the behavior (and your supervisor is not enough) you are not going to win a lawsuit against the union.  However, if your supervisor disciplines the people who said or you have proof that he/she reported it to HR (and you can get the paperwork to prove it), you have a better case.  I am very unhappy with how you were treated.  Is this the steward or the union rep? 

scrubbyfish

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2015, 11:07:41 AM »
...I fear that if another local mill ever shuts its door that the community that raised me since I was 12 will cease to be a livable place.

Heroin, meth, hate, and tolerance of hate... it doesn't sound livable right now, i.e., It has already ceased being a livable place.

I'm all for keeping awesome communities intact. This doesn't sound like one. If the community (including union rep, supervisor, etc) is not willing to rise against this, all the yummy folks should move to greener pastures. Some towns eventually collapse -that's okay. And it sure as hell won't be your fault if this one does. That's on the bigots and drug sellers and Powers That Be that sit meekly on their options, not on you. I vote for you moving to a Happy Place, and inviting your family to join you.

In the meantime, sorry this is happening :(

Jack

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2015, 11:39:39 AM »
The other side decided to put it all out in the open by making false accusations that I was making threats to people.  Seems like they were trying to put up a smoke screen to protect their guy.  This ended up getting me hauled into the office and having to play defense when I have done nothing wrong.  I had to repeatedly (literally 4 or 5 times) tell management that I didn't make threats against a past supervisor who hasn't been there since before August, tell them I didn't threaten to hit someone with a yard stick over the head, tell them I didn't have a list and didn't tell anyone they were on said imaginary list that someone pulled out of their ass, and the icing on the whole cluster fuck cake, I had to tell them at least three times that I didn't threaten to "paint the tree pink" I googled it, it has absolutely no meaning and I am convinced my coworkers are losing their minds.

It ended up being management after following through on their investigation of the false threats didn't think it was a good idea to try and discipline me for them (the only smart thing at this point considering one of their underlings witnessed one of the past incidents).  They're doing a whole lot of lip service saying they're going to take care of things and I am not buying any of it at this point, but unless I want a multi year lawsuit that's where I am at.  The union is saying that because of how I interact with people that the burden of getting along is more on me than them which pisses me off to no end.

The main perpetrator and his friend who witnesses his threat against me both lied when asked in front of management.  Management did not interview my direct supervisor who on multiple occasions heard the main perpetrator telling everyone I had AIDS. 

At this point I am pretty unhappy with how everything is being handled, but feel I don't have much recourse unless I want to have a multi-year legal battle.

Yep, that's kind of escalation is exactly what happens when you don't fight back. So fucking fight back!

The way I see it, you now have only two choices:
  • Sue the shit out of them, or
  • Let them win
You owe your coworkers nothing. You owe the company nothing. You own the union nothing. You owe the town nothing. So fuck 'em. Burn the whole damn bigoted place down (figuratively, with a lawsuit). If the whole damn town implodes, well, that's better than what those shitheads deserve!

StartingEarly

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2015, 02:30:28 PM »
I doubt I can win with only hearsay evidence and all the witnesses lying to protect themselves or someone else.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2015, 02:41:48 PM »
GTFO

It's not fun, it's not right that it's the situation, but the union is clearly on the other side and management doesn't care.

Allie

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2015, 03:33:26 PM »
Have you contacted a reputable group about this?  Legal aid, ACLU, good attorney?

If your goal is to change the culture of your town and workplace, you're right, it's not likely to happen and you've probably lost.  If your goal is to secure yourself a respected and  accepted place in your organization, again, you've probably already lost. 

But, just by initiating the complaints outside your organization, you will be forcing management to consider the legality and potential long term impact of their stance.  You won't have to prove anything. Then you may have the ability to win something.

For goodness sakes, just call your local legal aide group and talk to someone.  They'll be able to explain it better than I can. 

Jack

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2015, 04:01:14 PM »
I doubt I can win with only hearsay evidence and all the witnesses lying to protect themselves or someone else.

Now you're just victimizing yourself. Find a lawyer (from the ACLU or some gay-rights group or whatever) and let him tell you what your chances are.

Daleth

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2015, 08:04:12 AM »
I doubt I can win with only hearsay evidence and all the witnesses lying to protect themselves or someone else.

That's not hearsay. It's not hearsay for person A to report what person B said. It only becomes hearsay if person A's testimony is used as evidence that what person B said was true.

Example of hearsay: someone getting on the stand to say, in a murder case, "Frank told me that Bob murdered Cheryl," and the lawyer then argues that the witness's testimony proves that Bob did in fact murder Cheryl. In other words, hearsay means using "he told me that X" as evidence that X is true.

Example of NOT hearsay: "In the men's room at work Bob called me a faggot," and the lawyer then argues that Bob harassed the witness for being gay.

StartingEarly

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #67 on: March 22, 2015, 11:17:15 AM »
At this point things have calmed down significantly. I made it through my last review with only some negativity, meaning I did not get held back again for "doesn't work well with others". I do believe I was somewhat retaliated against by the company having an emergency meeting with two supervisors and my union president and myself because I didn't fill out a police report right away when my garage was broken into and stating I was not a fan of the police when asked if I had filled one out.  My text books for my apprenticeship program which I had to replace with my own personal money were what was stolen out of my personal vehicle. I have a record of the meeting in my safe downstairs. The meeting stated that me not being a fan of the police shows I don't respect "authoritarian" figures and they were concerned I wouldn't follow OSHA, would lie on radiation safety checks and fudge numbers on power generation emissions figures. I have been working there about two and a half years and they knew all counts to be patently false before engaging me in the meeting. I am fairly certain that no one else would be called into such a meeting because there is a very outspoken Tea Party anti-government type in our shop that hasn't been called into a meeting regarding him not being a fan of the government.

Dee18

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2015, 12:27:50 PM »
Contact lambdalegal.org
They are the leading organization representing people who have suffered discrimination based on sexual orientation.  They have handled thousands of cases like yours.  I join the many others on MMM wishing you all the best, but I urge you to check with the experts for advice.

KBecks2

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2015, 12:44:15 PM »
I think you should get help from a workplace attorney that handles harassment lawsuits, a gay rights organization, and or the State offices that handle discrimination cases.  Talk to them.  See what you can do.

It is not your effing problem if they get in trouble and it screws up their staffing,  that is their problem for not disciplining their employees properly for being @holes.

Sorry for the language.

Go get help and go fix it.

You do not want to have people make those remarks to you, you do not want to be stolen from, you do not want to be targeted at work.

Go fix it.

Now, you will probably want to get a new job anyway.  There is more than one paper mill in Wisconsin right? You are experienced?   You perform well on the job?   Are you networked in the gay community with people who can help you get into a better company or shop?

Don't let the bullies win and don't do it alone.   Did you hear yourself saying you need a gun to protect yourself?   Go talk to people and get some support for this.

I am a tea-party Republican type Wisconsin resident and I want you to kick these bullies where it hurts.   You should be able to work safely and treated with professional respect on the job.

Take care, I wish you all the best.


After reading your update, I still think you should talk to a lawyer / state department / advocacy group for help and counsel.   If they are fixing thing to your satisfaction and you believe you are being treated professionally, that is great.  If you are having problems, then don't hesitate to take this up.  I hope you do not feel completely dependent on this job, there are other options.  Do great work every day, be a great performer at work. (Why was your police report for your home brought up at a work meeting?  That makes no sense?  Did your employer go look up your police report???  Huh?)   Anyway, it is your call whether this is resolved.  If it is, then I am very happy for you and thankful for that.  If it is not, you can still take action.  Don't make excuses for the company.  I don't like how they are saying -- you might lie, you might not follow protocol.  What are the facts?  I am assuming that you are performing your job honestly and with good quality.  They are judging your behavior based on this police report? That is weird.  Don't let the company or the union run you down and control you,  that is a hard way to live life, and you have savings so you can have some peace of mind if you want to make a change. Anyway, you are in the situation, it is your decision to decide what is best for you, and I hope that it resolves well for you so you have a workplace where you can take great pride and satisfaction in your work and enjoy your job.  Best wishes.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 12:57:54 PM by KBecks2 »

Allie

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2015, 03:48:22 PM »
I will again recommend talking to someone who handles harassment and employment law concerns professionally.  It makes me a little sad that you don't feel powerful enough to stand up for yourself or find someone who will.  Maybe I am just a bitch, but I would never accept this treatment of someone I love, which includes myself. 

Since you haven't been willing to get outside assistance, consider getting some form of counseling or a support group, maybe even online.  The place to start may be with your self value and confidence. 

This is not how a professional organization should operate. 

Prepube

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2015, 04:17:31 PM »
Call the office of your senator, Tammy Baldwin.  If the rest of ya'll don't remember who he is, she is the first openly gay US senator in history, and she's from union-hating Wisco.  Make a big deal of this, please. Find the strength to help make this issue a non-issue for the next person.  You have the support of your neighbors, as Ms. Baldwin's existence as a senator proves.  You have power.  Please use it.

StartingEarly

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2015, 08:15:32 PM »
They were aware of the lack of police report because they were books they purchased.  I told them about them being stolen and just asked what they wanted to do about it. I prefaced the conversation by saying I was pretty sure I was the one paying for them this time around. They said they wouldn't help unless I filled out a report so I did, then they refused to pay. They also refused to do the paperwork so I didn't have to pay sales tax on it because it would "take more resources than it was worth".

mozar

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2015, 08:39:59 PM »
Sometimes it takes a few times to understand so I'll say it again. You don't need this job. All human beings are worthy of being treated with respect. You are worthy of something better. You also have a huge stache that will give you time to unemployed for awhile if that's what happens.

KBecks2

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2015, 06:46:05 AM »
You know, I agree about moving or changing your path.  I don't know if you wants to move, but if you are way up north, you could go into the Foxvalley papermills of the Green Bay area where there are paper or even come to Southeast Wisconsin where there are more jobs in the luckier receipt in Kenosha area and there are strong gay communities. Hey Madison! :)  Perhaps you can network with some successful gay people in your community and get a mentor and make a plan to get some education where you don't have to be stuck in the mill. 

Think about your big picture. Think about what you want to be doing with your life in 10 years. Sometimes things are small stuff, like sales tax on books that's thinking very small. Take a look at the long-term and where you want to go on what you want to achieve and I think when you look at that, the mill  job is not your answer. Again I wish you all the best.

StartingEarly

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Re: How do you handle discrimination at work?
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2015, 04:55:17 PM »
It was kinda more of the principle of the matter on the sales tax on the books. They bullied me into filling out a police report when I don't like the police because they claimed wouldn't help me otherwise. After filling one out they refused to even fill out the paperwork so I didn't have to pay sales tax on $260 of books. It was just in general a very shitty way for them to have handled themselves.