Hypocrisy in Action?

[Katsplaying]

My 24yo daughter is moving back home with the bf in a couple weeks after she completes coding boot camp training. They plan to find (temporary) jobs here while she searches for the best coding gig she can find on the West Coast.

I work FT & can support them for awhile without too much impact on my debt reduction/savings strategies. But I have lived alone for the past 5 years (and loved EVERY minute of it) so I expect we'll have a good deal of adjusting to do in sharing a household.

I want to suggest a plan for them.

FIRST: they pay off her credit card (balance unknown but probably under $1K).

NEXT: replace the air-bag-deployed but still drive-able POS they currently drive with a proper economical & SAFE vehicle. And get them both bikes.

THEN: for the near future, save every penny so when the right coding job appears, they can make the move at once.

They're on their own for far future plans; I have my own life to look after.

My dilemma: having been ignorantly immersed in consumerism until very recently, it feels hypocritical to insist they save everything when I still spend on myself. I don't go shopping as entertainment/therapy or other BS spending but I do spend on personal grooming (haircuts & waxing). I have a 401(k) & pension fund (plus other savings for retirement) & both sites indicate I am on track to retire...at 65. I plan on getting out much sooner. I am carrying some stupid debt (car loan & credit card) that desperately needs to be paid off asap and my plans had that occurring later this year, until this impending house-mate situation arose.

Boomerang kids are apparently quite common these days and I welcome anyone's suggestions, warnings, whatever as I am completely at sea & feeling a bit apprehensive.


Also, this is my first MMM forum post so please make the obligatory face punches for stupid debt gentle ones, this time.

Thanks!

K

1st ETA: Not looking to be the mom or boss (thanks for pointing that out!), but I definitely want a plan in place with a time frame. Also, I do not intend to clean/cook/ect for them as they're both adults. My kid knows this but she mentioned in an email that she advised the bf of my expectations: clean, quiet, & contributing. That she had to explain that to him worries me and I'm already heavily prejudiced against him because he made her cry. Because of that, I asked a good (male) friend to come over & meet them/him as a way to get an outside, more objective opinion about the bf.

Also, professional appearance is a job requirement at this point.

2nd ETA: It occurred to me to do the stay free for x amount of time, then charge nominal rent (to be returned on their leaving if possible) but I really want them to just save save save. I was relieved to discover my kid has found MMM! My parents never discussed money when I was growing up & I learned some very hard lessons because of that (hello, bankruptcy at age 29). I know the kids are somewhat party animals from fb posts & avid gamers of many types (on-line, xbox, table-top) but not sure  how much they actually spend on that (Blizzard sub is around $85/6 mos-yeah I play WoW). This is appalling for me to admit but they've been using food stamps for some time now...

If things work out REALLY well (and I am hopeful this may happen), I'd have them stay and we could ALL get our financial acts together. Having support at home would likely benefit everyone.

3rd ETA: I live in Bellingham, WA. Her coding boot camp is in NM and they're currently staying with his dad (rent free) but have worn out that welcome completely and possibly forever. They have NO cash on hand and cannot afford to move anywhere until that's remedied. Bf hasn't found paying work in the 4 months they've been there while kid goes to school.

I have been cautioned by friends about being overly demanding (moi? /batseyelashes) and am trying to keep that in mind as I approach this new experience. 

4rth ETA: No longer welcome at the bf's dad's is due to their since-rehomed dog eating a couch. While the  bf was in the next room . Playing video games. With the door open.

Yeeah, I know. But she's my kid and she's already had one brief round of couch-surfing homelessness that she didn't tell me about till it'd been resolved. The bf was involved in that episode, too. That's the source of my wanting to manage their financial choices somewhat; I don't trust the guy. But she's deeply enmeshed & my only hope is for her to see how much better she can do for herself and that's to let them try and maybe fail but not to the point of her being homeless again.

[MayDay]

Stop spending on grooming until you pay off your debt?

[neo von retorch]

I worry that you're overreaching. Perhaps you can say "hey, welcome home, what are your plans? would you like to hear about some changes I'm making and why?" And if that opens up a conversation, you can talk about what you're doing to improve your money situation now and into your future, and ideally, she'll ask questions that let you offer up suggestions. "Paying off my credit cards (partially) has started to save me $xx / month. I'm so excited to get debt free and build up a financial freedom fund!" But I would hesitate to do anything along the lines of "I'm letting you move home. Now I'm MOM again and I get to make decisions for you again!"

[abiteveryday]

I would have to borrow from another recent post and say don't borrow trouble.    You are letting them move in, which is nice, you don't have to do that.    It doesn't make you the boss again though.    I mean you can try and set up the old dynamic, but it's just a recipe for resentment all around.    Set a limit in advance for how long they can stay, so nobody is surprised, then just hands off and worry about yourself.

[KCM5]

If I were 24 and moved home temporarily I'd be pretty resentful if my mother gave me a list of demands such as that. Even if that was generally my plan, I don't like being told what to do. Obviously, the really depends on your relationship with your daughter.

I second the idea to simply talk with them about they're plans. And set a move out date/plan of action. Charge them rent if you want. Now, if their plans are terrible, then you have other issues, but until then, don't borrow trouble.

[Spork]

I would be hard pressed to make financial plans for them.  But I think living expectations (neat, contributing, etc) are a must to agree upon.

Option: charge them rent.  Make it very reasonable (well below market).  If you really want to force some sort of financial savings on her, you can squirrel it away with the unspoken plan to give it back to her when she moves out.

[Bob W]

It is fine that daughter returns to nest.   The get out and live on your own is such a consumer driven American thing.   Most of the world lives multigenerationally and is happy with that.   

So yeah,  be a family.  Grow together. 

And consider this -- If daughter and BF get decent jobs and live with you for cheap.   They could actually invest lots of money and be off the treadmill before you. 

[expectopatronum]

My first thought isn't hypocrisy - overstepping boundaries. What is this new situation going to look like? Is she going to pay rent? Is she not and for how long? When her X months are up, does she need to move out, or is there a "you're down on your luck but have been giving it your best" clause? I would say it's easier to set firm rules and then relax them, so long as you are not being taken advantage of.

Instead of suggest how she should allocate her money, simply require she pay $X reduced rent, or at least say she gets X number of months for free and then needs to start paying (job or no job). Their CC debt and car are not your territory as long as you aren't cosigned, so don't advise unless asked, but don't bail them out either. I don't believe in handouts mostly because I don't think you ever LEARN from it. All that teaches you is not to prepare for next time because someone can bail you out. Even a loan from the Bank of Parents is better, because it's not something for nothing.

Boomerang kids are hard because they're not really kids, but they're also...sort of not adults...at least not in my opinion, if they are getting free/reduced price lodging that isn't available to other people (special treatment/opportunity). Where I have a problem with boomerang kids my age is that they go out and spend STUPID amounts of money on things that aren't necessity - iPhone 6's, bars, designer bags - and yet they say they are too broke to get their own place and so they live at home. Maybe you can't make rent on a 1BR place downtown, but you need to be contributing to mom's house in the suburbs even if it's only $50 a month. I just fundamentally believe in charging rent after a period of X months. You have to learn that you need to take care of yourself, if that means getting a cheapy phone, eating pb&j sandwiches, and not going on ski trips with your friends./offsoapbox

[seattlecyclone]

I guess my question would be why your daughter isn't moving to the west coast immediately. Instead of telling her to spend her money on a new car (seriously?), tell her to go out to where the jobs are and find one! It's much easier to find a job when you're actually in the area and available for interviews. I think this is especially true for a coding bootcamp graduate who might have a tough time finding an entry level job in a corporation that's large enough to fly candidates across the country for interviews -- these corporations tend to place a (perhaps irrationally high) premium on having a traditional degree. When you have no experience and only a few months of education, you're probably going to be starting out with a small company that doesn't do nationwide recruiting.

[AJ]

When I was a kid, one of the most infuriating feelings was when I was about to start my chores and my mom would come "remind me" that I needed to do them. It took all the wind out of my sails. Now, rather than feeling proud that I was being proactive, I felt resentful. It robbed me of the feeling of personal accomplishment.

I was a boomerang child with loads of debt, and now I have a successful career and >70% savings rate with no parental input. I vote you lead be example only.

[mozar]

When I boomeranged my mother gave me one month free before I was charged market rate. I say set your limits and don't meddle unless they ask for planning help.

[Josiecat]

They need to be moving to the area where she is going to work right now.  It will be a lot easier for her to find work there if they are local.

[Exflyboy]

yes and no.. I think you are over reaching.. What they do with their money is none of your business as long as they meet the requirements you set for them.. e.g pay rent, pay for their utilities, food etc.

One thing though.. Your D is 24, is she still on your HC plan?.. If so I think you have more of a say in her finances...

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

So, I was briefly a "boomerang" kid during grad school - graduated into a job that had no work for me, got into grad school. I mowed their three acres in lieu of rent. It was their idea, which makes it a little different. I think you are well within bounds to require something of them, like maintaining your house in some way, or doing all the grocery shopping, or something that gives you consideration. I don't think telling them how to run their private matters is going to end well for you.

That said, he's a boyfriend, not a husband. It is your house and I think you should be very clear that you don't feel obligated to house him and if he does something you find unacceptable, you will kick him out. That shouldn't mean taking sides in their disagreements, but things like blowing money on crap or disrespecting your house. It's very worrisome that they've worn out their welcome with his father. What happened there?

[MNBen]

My opinion is set up some very clear ground rules that you have for the house and living arrangements (rent, utilities, etc.) and after that you get ZERO say in how they live their life.   Approach it as if you're renting out your spare room to a stranger.  Use the exact same guidelines.  No special treatment, no added clauses.

Here are some other thoughts for the OP if they wish to read more...

I live with my soon-to-be wife and her teenager child, and her oldest child (20) was brainstorming about moving home.  She had decided not to attend college after high school, move in with some friends, and was struggling out on her own.  By struggling, I mean things like couldn't figure out how to pay bills while not wanting to work 40 hours a week.  She also lost her license for not providing proof of insurance in a timely fashion, so either had no license or was driving without one.  When her mother approached me about her possibly moving back and asked my thoughts, I made it very clear we would need to set up very clear expectations.  Things like she couldn't live without an agreed upon rent, having a valid driver's license, etc.   In other words, I didn't want us to be the reinforcement for an "easier life".  I was okay with us helping a situation that might need help, but not without making it tough still.

I had some friends who've said their parents worked them so hard while they were in high school with chores and such, that by the time they graduated from high school they never wanted to move back.  That's more of the approach I live under - but these aren't my kids.  Still I think your parents home should be a nice place to visit, but not one that you would ever want to go back and live there.  This child above, wanted to go back to that lifestyle where mom did everything for her, and I wasn't going to let that happen.   The child heard there would be some requirements and has been sticking it out on her own, and growing (in a good way) because of it. 

Also, I have known too many people who just took someone in (a child, a friend, etc.) when it was just supposed to be "until they got their feet on the ground" and they struggled later when that person was still there longer than they expected.   Once they are in, it's harder to get them out unless you have an agreement.

[Kris]

3rd ETA: I live in Bellingham, WA. Her coding boot camp is in NM and they're currently staying with his dad (rent free) but have worn out that welcome completely and possibly forever. They have NO cash on hand and cannot afford to move anywhere until that's remedied. Bf hasn't found paying work in the 4 months they've been there while kid goes to school.

So, the first sentence of this worries me a bit.  How did they wear out that welcome "completely and possibly forever"? That sounds to me like they were not good guests during that stay?  What do you know about this.

And what about the BF's actual ability to get a job?  Is he going to be an enormous drag on your daughter, from what you can tell? Has he actually looked for work? How much do you know about that?  What kind of vibe do you get from your daughter about that? Is she defensive/illusive when you ask those kinds of questions?

[FrogStash]

I moved back in with my parents 3 times and we all liked it every time.  First, after grad school.  It took 8 months to find a job.  Once I did, I moved out.  Second, consulting work had me traveling M-F on the company dime and it didn't make sense to pay for an apartment for weekends only.  Third, sold my first house (underwater) and moved back while I saved for a new down payment.  I wasn't asked to pay rent, but I did resume some of my old chores out of habit and respect for the favor they were doing for me (taking out the trash, mowing the lawn etc.) though I wasn't asked to do so.  Luckily my parents raised a fairly responsible kid (me!) and we have always had a respectful relationship where I valued their support and advice.

The question I have for you is, how did they wear out their welcome in NM?  Will they do the same to you?

[bord]

3rd ETA: I live in Bellingham, WA. Her coding boot camp is in NM and they're currently staying with his dad (rent free) but have worn out that welcome completely and possibly forever. They have NO cash on hand and cannot afford to move anywhere until that's remedied. Bf hasn't found paying work in the 4 months they've been there while kid goes to school.

So, the first sentence of this worries me a bit.  How did they wear out that welcome "completely and possibly forever"? That sounds to me like they were not good guests during that stay?  What do you know about this.

Ditto to this. Red flags all over the place. A cohabitation failure is rarely the fault of a single party. I would talk to the dad and get his story before proceeding cautiously.

[Ditchmonkey]

So yeah,  be a family.  Grow together. 
 

I'm not singling the OP out on this - but Bob W makes the most important point. It's really tragic how we have lost strong family ties in this society. The obvious solution to current widespread economic issues in this country is more sharing, and more family. The idea that every individual or couple needs to occupy their own big house or apartment is really pretty ridiculous.

Alas, we just don't share strong and common culture anymore with anyone. Not our neighbors, and sadly not even our families. The thought of banding together for mutual support and shared resources is inconceivable to most.

On a separate note, has there ever been a man that didn't make hi GF cry at one point?

[AlwaysBeenASaver]

It actually sounds to me like you don't really want to bf to move in. I don't quite understand why he's moving in too - it seems reasonable to let your daughter move back in, but perhaps the boyfriend should move in with his own parents instead?

[frugaliknowit]

This is a train wreck in the making.  A cultivation of resentment.

"They plan to find (temporary) jobs here while she searches for the best coding gig she can find on the West Coast..."

2 problems here:  1.  Coding boot camp, without coding experience, at best requires a lengthy job search, depending on the market.  2.  She should be living in or near where she wants to work.  Seeking a job out of the area, with just "boot camp" training, seems like quite a reach.

What the freag are you letting the bf move in for?  Are you kidding?  You think you are going to live in harmony with
your daughter AND her bf BOTH of whom have no job?  How will you feel when you hear pleasure moans through the
walls and potentially out in the open (by accident, of course)?

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

My cousin and her husband bottomed out financially a few years ago and asked my aunt if they could move in with her (in the extremely large house she and my uncle built when they had 7 kids at home... were at that time down to maybe 3 at home).

She said that Cousin and their two boys were welcome any time. The husband... no.

I suspect my mom would say something similar!

That said... remember that you do not know everything about the BF. "Made [your] daughter cry" could mean a lot of things. If you and BF are both strong personalities and Daughter is a pleaser--could that be the case?--then any time you and BF happen to have different desires, she will feel pulled between you. Also, she may have overshared during a rough patch--I've been guilty of that in a bad way--so you could have a skewed idea.

[bacchi]

This is a train wreck in the making.  A cultivation of resentment.

"They plan to find (temporary) jobs here while she searches for the best coding gig she can find on the West Coast..."

2 problems here:  1.  Coding boot camp, without coding experience, at best requires a lengthy job search, depending on the market.  2.  She should be living in or near where she wants to work.  Seeking a job out of the area, with just "boot camp" training, seems like quite a reach.

Eh. I've known people who have been very successful with getting a job from boot camp. It depends on the boot camp more than anything. As for location, it is a 2 hour drive to Seattle but it's not crazy far. Phone screen, coding test perhaps, and then an in-person. Bellingham is close enough to a tech hub; it's not Tulsa.

[Katsplaying]

Many thanks for all the different perspectives. I knew this community would illuminate issues I hadn't considered and I am grateful that it wasn't only the money issues but the interpersonal as well.

I am still freaking out a bit at the thought of sharing my place (again) but that's MY issue and will be addressed both internally and with them; I have a huge need for massive amounts of home-alone time that will be harder to meet once I have housemates.

My kid moved to CA 4 years ago and I've only seen her a couple times since then. She's had a number of minimum wage part-time gigs during that time but with no training and spotty education (CC both here & in CA but no AA/AS) she had no hope of anything better. While I very much want to support and encourage her, at this point the bf is a package deal and I can accept that without ignoring my reservations & concerns about him. I made lots of insane choices around her age "for love!" that took me years to understand-I can only hope my kid wises up much sooner than I did, preferably before she breeds or commits/marries.

My revised plan is to welcome them, give them whatever tools I can to make their job searches successful, get the hell out of their way, and then re-assess once they have income again. No income after x amount of time means more re-assessment & negotiation of terms of their staying with me.

Again, thanks to you all!

K

[expectopatronum]

Good luck. I would still discuss it out front....as in, set from day 1 that by day 90, you'll need them to chip in $100/whatever per month. If you don't set a firm deadline, someone like my brother would protest that he was blindsided, he can't afford rent, why are you being so mean, etc. With the heads-up, there's no excuse. You know your kid best though. Sometimes people really DO try and don't find squat and pressure only adds to the stress, and they're not taking advantage or being entitled.

I'm just wary because of my own freeloading brother and freeloading SIL. The transition to "You need to pay your way in life now that you're 24 freaking years old" was rough. SIL has been unemployed over 13 mos now following graduation. Part of that is because she didn't even APPLY to a job until November. Daddy was supporting the whole time. Now she's moved to a different country with no plan. Frankly, I think if she'd known she was only going to get a certain amount of support for a certain amount of time, it wouldn't have taken her 6 months to start the job hunt, she wouldn't have bought $2K in video equipment before moving, and so on.

Similarly a friend of mine was unemployed for 18mos after graduation. He was very bright and he had several offers around our graduation, but nothing floated his boat. He kept turning opportunities down and crashed with a friend in a 1BR apt the whole time. Their relationship suffered while he was choosy over jobs and not helping out with rent.

It's tough because you can't micromanage how they're living their lives. I'd feel furious if I were SIL's dad, having just bought her multiple plane tickets to travel and paying her rent but she can somehow afford $2000 of toys. But you CAN set a boundary for yourself to minimize resentment.

[little_brown_dog]

i second the concerns here regarding the bf - he sounds like he may have some responsibility issues what with wearing out welcomes, being involved with previous episodes of home instability, inability to take responsibility for a dog, and inability to find any paying work. that being said, we can't choose who our loved ones partner with, but we can do our best to support them with firm boundaries.

given all the major concerns with bf and the fact that you enjoy living on your own, i highly support the idea of setting a time limit on living together from the outset. you don't have to be a jerk, but make it clear that you can live together for say a max of 6 months at which time you expect them to get their own place. six months should be plenty of time for 2 ambitious, goal oriented people to find some paying work and demonstrate that they can live with you in harmony. couch this as a supportive parent looking out for their future as a couple.  if things go well, you can always extend the timeframe (don't tell them this, just know its an option)...if things go poorly or you really just want your space back, stick to the original timeline. this type of plan seems to be the happy medium between helping out your daughter and potentially setting yourself up for the misery of supporting a questionable bf long term.

[NomadMustache]

This is a difficult question. I'd say that if you think you can have a productive conversation, then try... gently. But really the only person in this thread who can accurately guess whether they'd be receptive to such a conversation is you.

I disagree with hard and fast rules about having these conversations.

My brother is 23, lives at home, has never had a real job, mooches off my parents endlessly, and is slowly destroying their house. My parents never had these conversations with him. When he was young, my dad was going back to school and he was my mom's favorite so he got whatever he wanted. If my parents tried to have those conversations with him now it'd be way too late.

My parents never gave me much financial education either, but we were not quite middle class when I was young, and I remember hearing them worry about money. It made a mark on me and I have been somewhat of a money hoarder... but only compared to regular consumer sukkas. I had a measly ~20% savings rate for the first five years of my adult life, which I was proud of, because my peers saved nothing, and the mainstream retirement advice told me 10% was more than enough. I wish my parents had told me more when I was twenty-two and freshly employed, because I know now that they were holding back.

It really depends on how open you think they are to it. However, as other posters have mentioned, leading by example is always good, whether you choose to bring it up or not.

Good luck!

[Louisville]

Can the daughter really find a job "coding"?

What's coding boot camp? I've been in the information systems industry since 1996, and  "coding" doesn't really mean anything to me.  What computer languages did she learn? How long and in depth was the course(s)?

Computer programming doesn't happen in a vacuum, there's always a subject matter that a programmer is going to have to understand, so does she have any experience in business, science, administration, etc.? Was she taught any general information systems concepts like networks, databases, file systems, interfacing, etc., that she'll need to implement and deploy her "code"?

I don't want to be a wet blanket here, because I think an information systems career is one of the best bets a person can make right now. I'm just wondering what coding bootcamp is and if it's worth the time it takes to say it...

[expectopatronum]

This is a difficult question. I'd say that if you think you can have a productive conversation, then try... gently. But really the only person in this thread who can accurately guess whether they'd be receptive to such a conversation is you.

I disagree with hard and fast rules about having these conversations.

My brother is 23, lives at home, has never had a real job, mooches off my parents endlessly, and is slowly destroying their house. My parents never had these conversations with him. When he was young, my dad was going back to school and he was my mom's favorite so he got whatever he wanted. If my parents tried to have those conversations with him now it'd be way too late.

But this is precisely why having a conversation about expectations is important, especially from the beginning when someone moves back in or hits a milestone like turning a certain age. The level of hard & fast rule depends on the person - you don't necessarily have to kick someone out on the street after X months/weeks -  but I see so many people's relationships strained by "you can move in until you get back on your feet" figuring the person is going to give their best, good faith effort to get started. Or "you don't have to chip in because you don't make much" and then the person is eating out every day, buying toys, leaving the other to feel like they're shouldering an unfair share of housing costs.

I'm firmly in the boundaries camp because my whole life I've just seen people trample others' boundaries, and then those people get resentful, hurt, feel trapped, and sometimes don't bring it up so that the issue can be fixed.

[CanuckExpat]

NEXT: replace the air-bag-deployed but still drive-able POS they currently drive with a proper economical & SAFE vehicle. And get them both bikes.

I don't get why you are repeating yourself. Unless you are suggesting they get a cheap tandem bike, and individual bikes for each of them?

[expectopatronum]

2nd ETA: It occurred to me to do the stay free for x amount of time, then charge nominal rent (to be returned on their leaving if possible) but I really want them to just save save save. I was relieved to discover my kid has found MMM[/quote

It occurred to me, if the reason you don't want them to chip in / even mention it is because you want them to save save save, why don't you instead simply gift it back to them when they move out, if you feel that's appropriate?

I'm surprised they're still in the party lifestyle with the discovery of MMM. You can lead a horse to water...

Anyway, this solution may work because 1) it reinforces the "don't get something for nothing"mindset (yes, even if it's just $25. $25 is a bar tab, which they can apparently afford? Even tho food stamps? I was lost on this point), 2) is perfectly within your boundaries as the person whose place it is, and 3) results in what is basically automatic savings in the Bank of Mom.

You would have to be mindful that just because they pay you $25 pp for 4 months and you decide to gift them a $200 check, that it's just as possible they choose to spend it on something that is not of your liking (unless you only offer it to cover a specific expense).

[NomadMustache]

expectopatronum, I see your point. When I say that it'd be way too late for my parents to have that conversation with my brother now, I don't mean they should have had it a few years ago when he could have been going to tech school, or a few years before that when he was in high school. I mean that if someone has reached adulthood and still needs to be told these kinds of things, then it is far, far too late. A decade or more.

At this point, with my brother, and I suspect many other similarly ambition-less young adults, the only way to approach it with some possibility of success and without destroying the relationship is gently. Were my parents to kick him out he'd probably spend even more time with other ambition-less hooligans and stop speaking to them.

Of course the parents or others supporting these kinds of people would not be wrong at all to set firm boundaries and that is their prerogative. I just don't unambiguously advocate they do without considering the emotional costs to themselves.