Author Topic: How to choose where to live?  (Read 4091 times)

pnw_guy

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How to choose where to live?
« on: July 19, 2021, 09:06:24 PM »
So I've asked a version of this question in the Investing and Landlording space on this forum. However, after further reflection I think this is a more philosophical question that I previously imagined. The question is simply, "How should one choose where to live?"

The reason I ask is that we currently live in a HCOL and now with guaranteed remote work (I don't want this thread to turn into a debate about the stickiness of remote work - I feel pretty secure that it will be my future), we now have the option to move anywhere in the U.S. While this initially seemed exciting, after giving it a lot of thought it actually became terrifying. How does one make decision when there are so few constraints?

So, what I want to know - how did you choose where to live? Did you choose to live by family? Live in a LCOL area so you could pay off your house ASAP? Just move to someplace that had a good feel with good schools? Something else?

Please let me know how you figured this out for yourself and any regrets (or victories) you've had in making this decision. I think this should be an easier question but our family is just kind of waffling on what we should prioritize.

Metalcat

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2021, 09:52:41 PM »
Family is the big factor that you have to account for first.

How willing are you to be away from them? This really has to come before anything else, because if you have to be close to them, that narrows down your options pretty easily.

After that, the factors are so personal it's hard to say.

For me, I dramatically prefer intense urban environments, but also love a lot of nature. So a very green city is my ideal. But really, I could live a lot of places. I've lived everywhere from isolated on a mountain, to the very center of a major city. I'm pretty flexible, but a lot of people aren't.

I would rather choke on my own tongue than live in a suburb though. So there's that.

The last enormous thing is weather. This is probably the single largest consideration for people. Again, I'm flexible. The city I live in ranges from dangerous heat stroke conditions to dangerous frostbite conditions every year, so I feel like I could pretty comfortably live in the arctic or the equator, as long as wherever I live has adequate infrastructure for extreme weather events.

So that leads us to infrastructure. What are you willing to live without? What are you not willing to live without? I'm seriously considering a move to the arctic at some point. There are trade offs that one has to be willing to make to do that.

Which leads me into culture. How flexible are you in terms of the people you live amongst? What are you ideally looking to get from the social ecosystem around you? I personally can get along with a huge range of people, but if I narrow it down to what kind of folks really enrich my life, then the scope becomes a lot more narrow.

This will depend if you're the kind of person who just needs a good crew to circulate with, or if your a more "involved in the community", engaged person who gets most energized by being part of a broader community that feels compatible.

An important factor for some of us is medical care. A lot of people like to say things like "the medical care in medium sized cities/Panama/Portugal/wherever is just as good!". Well, it isn't, not if you end up with something complex. You simply will not have the kind of medical care access that you can get in a major, expensive city. Here's hoping you never have complex medical issues that are out of the pay grade of a lot of specialists. I don't recommend it as a lifestyle choice, that's for sure. But I know I'm incredibly grateful that some of the top medical specialists in the world for their specific area of expertise are in my city and working on my case.

You can always travel for medical care if needed, but that's a real bitch when you have to. Again, here's hoping this is just never a practical concern for you.

Last, but definitely, absolutely not least, is traffic. This is related to density, but is actually it's own category, because some cities are worse for traffic than their density should dictate. This includes cities with old, traffic unfriendly infrastructure, or cities that are islands and have bridge bottlenecks. Like Montreal, which has both, plus lunatic drivers, which is super fun.


reeshau

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2021, 10:43:52 PM »
@Malcat , as always, has summed up the factors pretty well.  For us, family and weather were big considerations in this last move.  We won't be here forever, but it's the right answer for the next decade.

My only addition is that you should not have in mind to make an immediate, final answer.  Take some time.  Explore a few places.  You can work remotely, so slow travel or Nomad for a while.  If you don't have any idea where, then just take a big road trip somewhere, and pay attention to places along the way.  Once you think you have found a place, make sure and also see it at its worst:  the Midwest in the winter, the South in the summer, a tourist area in low season.  (Or high season, as the case may be)  Your work flexibility also means you can take your time to decide, and approach it experimentally, rather than a final exam that you have to turn in all at once.

Metalcat

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2021, 11:00:00 PM »
@Malcat , as always, has summed up the factors pretty well.  For us, family and weather were big considerations in this last move.  We won't be here forever, but it's the right answer for the next decade.

My only addition is that you should not have in mind to make an immediate, final answer.  Take some time.  Explore a few places.  You can work remotely, so slow travel or Nomad for a while.  If you don't have any idea where, then just take a big road trip somewhere, and pay attention to places along the way.  Once you think you have found a place, make sure and also see it at its worst:  the Midwest in the winter, the South in the summer, a tourist area in low season.  (Or high season, as the case may be)  Your work flexibility also means you can take your time to decide, and approach it experimentally, rather than a final exam that you have to turn in all at once.

Yep, kind of like workplaces, it takes experiencing a few locations to even understand what it is that really matters to you.

My list comes from moving a lot and living in quite a range of places.

Sandi_k

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2021, 12:59:12 AM »
We literally drew a line through the country, and said it must be south of the Bay Area, as we can't handle colder.

Other considerations:

- more inland is fine; warmer is fine; almanacs will give you "days of sunshine per year." 300+ was our line.
- within an hour of an airport that Southwest or Jet Blue fly out of.
- Decent medical care/research hospital
- On the water a huge plus
- A Target within 20 miles
- We wanted predominantly blue as a state (we're in a more red-demographic within a blue state now).


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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2021, 01:10:49 AM »
I think finding your tribe is underestimated, particularly as you grow older.  Having people around you who can become your community is invaluable: that might start with family or not, and it might be people who are like you or not, but it does mean finding somewhere you already fit into or can adapt into.

Climate change also needs to be mentioned.  Climate everywhere is now less stable and predictable and more dangerous.  Flood, fire, drought and storms will make some parts of the world, and some parts of many countries, uncomfortable, difficult and even dangerous to live in in the next 30 years.

Rdy2Fire

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2021, 08:46:11 AM »
We literally drew a line through the country, and said it must be south of the Bay Area, as we can't handle colder.

Other considerations:

- more inland is fine; warmer is fine; almanacs will give you "days of sunshine per year." 300+ was our line.
- within an hour of an airport that Southwest or Jet Blue fly out of.
- Decent medical care/research hospital
- On the water a huge plus
- A Target within 20 miles
- We wanted predominantly blue as a state (we're in a more red-demographic within a blue state now).

I'm curious, where did you end up as the decision?


K_in_the_kitchen

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2021, 08:13:19 PM »
We're where we are because this is where the job is.  We grew up in this region, went to university here, and got jobs.  Within a few years DH got a job at a company in the town we were renting in, so we bought a condo and then a house. Most of our extended family is in the general region, within 2 hours or so, including my MIL.

We've considered where we might go when DH retires (he's in the OMY phase while it provides health insurance for our young adult kids and while the job is going well).  I agree, it is terrifying to consider where we might go when we have absolute freedom to do so.  I think the fear comes from knowing we could get it wrong and it could be an expensive lesson.

There are so many thing we don't love about where we live: the hot summers, poor air quality, and traffic any time we want to go somewhere on the freeway come to mind.  I could add HCOL but we own our house outright which neutralizes that one especially when you consider Prop 13.  But oh, we have so much sun!  And very little rain, which is a bad thing because of drought but does mean more sunny days.  And our winters are mild -- Christmas is almost always a gorgeous day we can spend outside.  It cools down at night where we are, so summers aren't miserable, even though the humidity seems to be creeping up.  Where our house is we have a walk score of 83 (very walkable) specific to our address and a bike score of 93 (biker's paradise) which is for the neighborhood.  It's a university town with many cultural events.  We can be in the mountains, at the beach, or in the desert within an hour or less.  Food grows here year round and there are farmers markets galore.  The guys all mountain bike and roll out the door and can be on trails in 15 minutes.  Our town has a 67% vaccination rate.  (I say town, but we have a population of almost 70,000 people.)

But we live with the reality of earthquakes and the impending "Big One", and climate change is only going to make the heat and drought worse.  Devastating wildfires rage in the mountains year after year.  Still, do we leave and give up some of the great things?  Or do we stay put where we have roots and community?

Honestly, our latest idea is to be the opposite of snowbirds, traveling to cooler locales for the summer once we finally FIRE.

seemsright

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2021, 08:39:05 PM »
After college hubby and I could have gone anywhere. I wanted to live where we are. We are a hour from most things. The  actives we enjoy doing are here. We have a few good friends around.

It is becoming a much higher cost living area but since we were able to set roots early we have not really noticed.

The weather is not bad, just have the right clothing and good to go.


I dont think I would want to be anywhere else.
 

pnw_guy

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2021, 08:57:20 PM »
Family is the big factor that you have to account for first.

How willing are you to be away from them? This really has to come before anything else, because if you have to be close to them, that narrows down your options pretty easily.

After that, the factors are so personal it's hard to say.

For me, I dramatically prefer intense urban environments, but also love a lot of nature. So a very green city is my ideal. But really, I could live a lot of places. I've lived everywhere from isolated on a mountain, to the very center of a major city. I'm pretty flexible, but a lot of people aren't.

I would rather choke on my own tongue than live in a suburb though. So there's that.

The last enormous thing is weather. This is probably the single largest consideration for people. Again, I'm flexible. The city I live in ranges from dangerous heat stroke conditions to dangerous frostbite conditions every year, so I feel like I could pretty comfortably live in the arctic or the equator, as long as wherever I live has adequate infrastructure for extreme weather events.

So that leads us to infrastructure. What are you willing to live without? What are you not willing to live without? I'm seriously considering a move to the arctic at some point. There are trade offs that one has to be willing to make to do that.

Which leads me into culture. How flexible are you in terms of the people you live amongst? What are you ideally looking to get from the social ecosystem around you? I personally can get along with a huge range of people, but if I narrow it down to what kind of folks really enrich my life, then the scope becomes a lot more narrow.

This will depend if you're the kind of person who just needs a good crew to circulate with, or if your a more "involved in the community", engaged person who gets most energized by being part of a broader community that feels compatible.

An important factor for some of us is medical care. A lot of people like to say things like "the medical care in medium sized cities/Panama/Portugal/wherever is just as good!". Well, it isn't, not if you end up with something complex. You simply will not have the kind of medical care access that you can get in a major, expensive city. Here's hoping you never have complex medical issues that are out of the pay grade of a lot of specialists. I don't recommend it as a lifestyle choice, that's for sure. But I know I'm incredibly grateful that some of the top medical specialists in the world for their specific area of expertise are in my city and working on my case.

You can always travel for medical care if needed, but that's a real bitch when you have to. Again, here's hoping this is just never a practical concern for you.

Last, but definitely, absolutely not least, is traffic. This is related to density, but is actually it's own category, because some cities are worse for traffic than their density should dictate. This includes cities with old, traffic unfriendly infrastructure, or cities that are islands and have bridge bottlenecks. Like Montreal, which has both, plus lunatic drivers, which is super fun.

This is a really helpful post. While I have been getting really bogged down in factors like cost and hobbies nearby (which we have some opinions about but not enough to make the decision for us), this post brought up a couple of points that we do actually feel strongly about.

The first is traffic. Even working from home, it's such a pain to even have to go across town. Thus, we don't take advantage of many places/restaurants in our own city. Second, is that we do feel strongly about weather, and more specifically, climate change. We are naturally worried about issues like water security, which may make may a move to a more arid location less appealing.

FINate

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2021, 10:14:25 PM »
We made a big move last summer. We were in the process of moving when the pandemic hit, which delayed things a few months and greatly complicated the process. We're FIRE so our options were wide open.

I may be an oddball, but I think many are overly concerned with a place's climate. Granted, I don't particularly want to live in the extreme cold of interior Alaska or the heat of Phoenix, but there's a lot of middle ground the US if you're somewhat flexible. You learn how to deal with a new climate, what to wear, and physically adapt to an extent. In the winter we wear warm clothes, and in the summer we do outdoor stuff in the early morning and then swim or just take it easy in the basement during the heat of the day or head to the mountains.

Relationships are, IMO, the main thing. We left a lot of deep connections when we moved and that's been difficult, especially with lock downs. But we also found a wonderful church here and have forged a bunch of new relationships that are growing deeper. All in all it's been good for us, but not without challenges.

Other things we looked for: A relatively compact city (or distinct neighborhood) that's walkable/bikeable, with proximity to parks/shops/eateries/amenities where we can mostly live without getting in a car. Low crime, 'cause you can't *really* rely on biking if you're always worried about your bike/stuff getting stolen or being accosted. Safe, clean, usable parks. Functional city governance, not going from crisis to crisis / kicking the can down the road. Reasonable cost of living, didn't need to be the lowest, just not completely insane. Easy access to the great outdoors, hence the compact city part, I don't want to drive for hours through suburbs to get to real wilderness. Having a reasonably well connected airport was a big bonus, though not a must have.

Something else I found useful in getting my search started, and this may be peculiar to me, was to look for small to medium sized cities with universities and something like a Whole Foods and/or farmer's market. And then narrow this down further based on the above.

One other thing worth mentioning is how you respond to the actual move. I think it helps to have a mindset of letting your new city/location be it's own unique thing. Don't think of it as an analog to your previous location, such as a cheaper SoCal or whatever. Embrace it for what makes it what it is. You don't have to love everything about it, but have an open mind. Be intentional, especially during the first year, of getting out and exploring and establishing new traditions and rhythms of life.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 10:22:33 PM by FINate »

Sandi_k

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2021, 10:31:04 PM »
We literally drew a line through the country, and said it must be south of the Bay Area, as we can't handle colder.

Other considerations:

- more inland is fine; warmer is fine; almanacs will give you "days of sunshine per year." 300+ was our line.
- within an hour of an airport that Southwest or Jet Blue fly out of.
- Decent medical care/research hospital
- On the water a huge plus
- A Target within 20 miles
- We wanted predominantly blue as a state (we're in a more red-demographic within a blue state now).

I'm curious, where did you end up as the decision?

A small town in the California Delta region. It's pretty red as a community, which isn't awesome, but we're still in CA, so that helps.

Morning Glory

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2021, 11:04:27 PM »
Following. Right now I'm on the same quest.  I already sold my house and both my work contract and lease end in December. Currently scouting out fire destinations!!!

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2021, 03:03:28 AM »
Personally I aim for comfort (I take the Goldilocks approach, not too hot and not too cold), access to lifestyle options and culturally diverse. If you can live anywhere, figure out what makes you happy and content and find places that match. Make a list of your top 10 most important features and then visit all that tick 7/10.

StartingEarly

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2021, 03:32:15 AM »
I think most of it was covered pretty well so I'll only add in points that I haven't seen yet.

Biggest point missed is there are 9 states with no income taxes. This can be a difference of over 10% on take home pay in some areas so it's something to think about, other taxes vary. Sometimes areas with high property tax are still cheaper overall because of low real estate prices, so it's not always cut and dried.

I'd be concerned at a place's laws and how they might affect you. Are you on anyone that is going to be visiting Trans? That could cause some issues. Less likely for just gay but that's still somewhat of an issue and definitely the local populace can still be an issue in a few pockets. Are you or anyone visiting a concealed carry holder, NFA item, etc Do you or anyone visiting use recreational or medical marijuana?

I can't really thing of anything else that has been missed.


StartingEarly

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2021, 03:33:05 AM »
If you plan on going to school then what's the cost of school in that area if you're going to do nightschool to expand your career and it's not available online.

gaja

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2021, 05:59:46 AM »
The difficulties of choosing where to live is described well in Edda, in the stories explaining why the gods Skade and Njord ended up getting a divorce: "Skaði [godess of mountains and skiing] wanted to live in the home once owned by her father called Þrymheimr. However, Njörðr [god of sea] wanted to live nearer to the sea. Subsequently, the two made an agreement that they would spend nine winters in Þrymheimr and then the next nine in Njörðr's sea-side home Nóatún. However, when Njörðr returned from the mountains to Nóatún, he said:

"Hateful for me are the mountains,
I was not long there,
only nine nights.
The howling of the wolves
sounded ugly to me
after the song of the swans"

Skaði responded:
"Sleep I could not
on the sea beds
for the screeching of the bird.
That gull wakes me
when from the wide sea
he comes each morning."


Our list:
1) Have to see the ocean and mountains.
2) No more than 1 meter snow at any times during winter, preferrably much less
3) South of 62° N
4) No quick clay, avalanches, or rockfalls threathening the house
5) Safe from rising oceans (as according to these tables: https://dibk.no/globalassets/tema/klimatilpasning/havnivaastigning-rapp.pdf)
6) Within a couple of hours of a decent sized city
7) Possible to grow stuff

Not on our list:
a) close to airports/trains
b) cultural activites, cafes, and other urban attractions
c) close to family/friends/network
d) "good schools" (most schools here are good enough, and the variation from year to year and teacher to teacher is larger than from school to school)
e) access to medical (good enough throughout the country, except for the far north)

Linea_Norway

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2021, 08:23:31 AM »

<interesting, but snip>

Our list:
1) Have to see the ocean and mountains.
2) No more than 1 meter snow at any times during winter, preferrably much less
3) South of 62° N
4) No quick clay, avalanches, or rockfalls threathening the house
5) Safe from rising oceans (as according to these tables: https://dibk.no/globalassets/tema/klimatilpasning/havnivaastigning-rapp.pdf)
6) Within a couple of hours of a decent sized city
7) Possible to grow stuff

Not on our list:
a) close to airports/trains
b) cultural activites, cafes, and other urban attractions
c) close to family/friends/network
d) "good schools" (most schools here are good enough, and the variation from year to year and teacher to teacher is larger than from school to school)
e) access to medical (good enough throughout the country, except for the far north)

We are FIRED and looking for an ideal place to live somewhere in Norway. Currently living in a rental and looking our ideal house to buy. My list is partly similar to yours.

- Near the sea, preferably so close that you can drag your kayak on a trolley to it. With the kind of shallow water where free diving is interesting. The sea there should be healthy and contain fish. Preferably not full of salmon farms, which is a difficult requirement.
- Accessible forest (mushroom terrain) in the vicinity. Preferably different kinds of forest (pine and leaved trees).
- Mountains in the vicinity would a big plus for the view, but not a must. We could drive to such an area. But some hills around would be nice as a hiking destination for a day trip.
- Cycling options, which means not on a tiny Island without bridge, but the ability to cycle a 60 km round trip or so. And some nice paths/track to mountain bike would also be nice (for DH).
- Not too far driving from a decent airport so we could visit our relatives in another country fast.
- Not more than 6 hours driving from our cabin. Now that limits our options a lot.
- Not in a big city, but rather out in the country.
- Not too far from a town with many shops and services. You can buy all sorts of stuff online nowadays, but having a doktor, a dentist, a opticion, a car maintenance shop etc near would be nice.
- Close to a grocery store, preferably more than one (choice). Close to a library.a big plus if both are on walking distance.
- Not too far driving from a hospital. DH has a medical issue. And we are of an age that we are getting more and more issues.
- Not in the vicinity of heavy traffic or industrial noise, not so close that you hear it. Now that is a difficult requirement, because noise is everywhere. Several of the houses we would like to have bought last year, had a stone quarry within a kilometer.
- Safe for avalanches, quick clay, and rocks. Safe roads (safe for named avalanches) leading to the house.
- Possible to grow stufff.
- Little light pollution.
- Not too few people around. I want the option to meet others and make new friends. But not so many that it gets very noisy.
- Safe for storm floods. I think the general sea level rise goes so slowly that it is not an immediate issue for the next 20 years, which is our scope. But storm floods can be expected to be more severe. As well as storms in general and flooding from rivers.
- Prerably cross country skiing options close by. But not an absolute must, as we can do that at our cabin.
- I think DH would appreciate some cultural events not too far away.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 08:29:30 AM by Linea_Norway »

FLBiker

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2021, 08:33:00 AM »
We moved last year (after several years of attaining Canadian permanent residency) from Florida to Nova Scotia.

The dominant reason for us was the kid.  Our daughter was starting kindergarten, and we didn't want her to go to school in Tampa where 1) schools are kind of lousy, 2) they have active shooter drills on the regular and 3) the standardized test prep culture is insane.  Secondarily, DW and I were sick of living in a place where confederate flags and Trump flags were pretty common, where there was a gun show every weekend, etc.  We initially started looking at places like PNW or NH, but we realized that some of those same issues would continue to apply.  Then DW raised the idea of Canada (full disclosure, I have previously lived in England, Taiwan and China, so she knew I would be game).  I suggested New Zealand instead (because weather) but she didn't want to be that far from family.  I also briefly suggested places like Thailand or Costa Rica (because weather and COL) but she felt strongly that she wanted DD to grow up in a place where she could truly feel that she was of.  And, I think my wife was right about this (for us).  I have a lot of expat friends in Taiwan (for example) and there kids are always treated as outsiders, despite having been born there and being fluent in Mandarin.

So we chose Nova Scotia.  It's relatively moderate weather-wise (for Canada), cheaper than BC, and very pro-outdoor activities (although most of Canada is).  I got a job working from home, which meant we weren't bound to Halifax, so we chose a small town in the Annapolis Valley.  We visited a few places that were within ~1.5 hours of Halifax (mainly for airport access) and we loved it here.  We love being in a small town, but also that we're in a "city" that provides services (like plowing, water, sewer).  Being both city folk and warm weather folks, we didn't feel comfortable spending our first Canadian winters somewhere rural.  And, having gone through our first winter, it was great!

We can walk to a grocery store, hardware store, library, post office, etc.  There is a hospital in town (which isn't true in many Canadian small towns).  The next town over has big box stores.  And the town after that has a university (where DW can potentially work) and the restaurant / culture scene.  And between these three towns, there are only about 30,000 residents, so there's no traffic or crowds or anything.  There's tons of great hiking, lots of free / cheap recreation, and people have been super friendly.  There is a general air of helpfulness / community concern that is really cool and totally foreign to me.  We absolutely love it (we've been here exactly 1 year today).  Oh, and another big perk (for us) is not having to worry about health insurance as we transition to working less (or not at all).

DD did her first year of school mostly face-to-face (we were closed basically for May) and she's doing French immersion.  There's no gifted program in Nova Scotia, but French keeps things interesting for her (so far) and there is a very cool private school about 15 minutes away if push comes to shove.  There's also IB for high school.

Oh, another thing I remember being a factor was earthquakes -- DW isn't interested in being near them.  Personally, I've been in some big ones (I was in Taiwan for 921) and they don't really worry me.  Getting away from hurricanes (as we both expect them to become more frequent and stronger) was a plus as well.  And we did intentionally pick a place that could handle some sea level rise -- at least, in terms of where our house is.  Nova Scotia will undoubtedly be impacted, but the government believes it is real and is actively planning for it (unlike, say, Florida).

Without kid, I think we might have done something very different.  DW and I are both (historically, at least) English teachers.  So I think we might have chosen to vagabond around for a while, living places that were interesting, comfortable, and relatively cheap.  If we had a bunch of kids, we might have done this anyway, but with just the one we really wanted her to be able to make deep, long term connections with her peers so we were looking for more of a forever home.

And, for better or worse, family wasn't a big consideration.  DWs parents are in Florida, but our relationship with them is complicated.  She's fine seeing them a week or two a year.  My mom died 4 years ago, and she was the real glue for my family.  My dad, siblings and I all get along well, but we have never spent a lot of time together -- I left St. Louis (where they all live) in 1999, so I'm used to just seeing them once a year or so.  And there was no way we wanted to live in St. Louis (for much the same reasons we didn't want to live in Tampa).

tygertygertyger

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2021, 08:46:35 AM »
My partner and I debate this all the time. We live in Chicago, and maintaining a 4 seasons lifestyle is very important. In fact, Chicago winters are milder than ever (save one week or so per winter), so we might need to move further north! Cold and snow are important to us.

He wants mountains. I want friends and family nearby. This is the crux of our debate, as our aging parents live here, and the bulk of our friends. With climate change concerns, we're basically left with: great lakes area, coastal PNW, and maybe (but less likely) New England area.

For now, he's okay staying here for the next 5-10 years, but it's unclear to me what we're going to do.

Zikoris

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2021, 09:14:33 AM »
I'm going to get flamed for this, but having lived in Vancouver for many years, one of the most important factors for me is that I absolutely do not want to live somewhere with homeless/addict/street people/tent cities. I don't want to be too specific, because the community I intend to move to is small and I don't want to post it online, but due to geography, lack of the services street people use, and some various other factors, I found a place with none of them and no real possibility of that changing, and greatly look forward to moving there.

I am just done with the needles, shit, garbage, screaming, crime, etc.

joe189man

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2021, 09:23:28 AM »
This is one of my favorite things to day dream about. @Malcat hit many of the major items and @StartingEarly hit taxes - which i think should be highly considered for FIRE folks. Taxes could be a huge budget item depending on where you live.

If you have children - niche or school digger can give you an idea of the quality of schools for a given area

There are many best places to live lists for the US and globally that include things like cost of living and being retirement friendly - here is an example- https://realestate.usnews.com/places/rankings/best-places-to-live

Climate change is another factor i think matters quite a bit and should be considered for long term viability of a location. Places like Phoenix or Las Vegas seem like "bad" places to put down roots from drought and climate change perspectives.

we are kinda stuck where we are because of jobs and are 12 hours by car from family, which is rough.

Agree with @Zikoris too

I like the idea of a medium sized college town close to nature and water, ski hill with in an hour, climate change and drought resilient, not too hot (ideally 90 or less average summer high) or humid.

Fort Collins, Colorado may be a good fit

FINate

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2021, 09:33:14 AM »
I am just done with the needles, shit, garbage, screaming, crime, etc.

No flames here, I totally get it. We were also done with the madness. It's difficult to understand how utterly corrosive these issues become unless one has lived with them 24x7 for a number of years. I even had a bit of survivor's guilt after moving, but that faded with time and a growing realization that the problems don't get fixed because there's no political will to address them.

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2021, 10:10:26 AM »
This is one of my favorite things to day dream about. @Malcat hit many of the major items and @StartingEarly hit taxes - which i think should be highly considered for FIRE folks. Taxes could be a huge budget item depending on where you live.


Taxes are an issue, but not a high issue. Most people mean "income tax free state" when they talk about taxes in FIRE. I would encourage others to actually do the math.

TX has very high property tax rates.

TN has not expanded Medicare.

FL is full of idiots. ;)

WA has cold weather, as does NH - Will you spend your savings on heating instead?

I think a holistic view matters more. For us, my retiree health insurance is worth $20k+ annually. So staying in CA and paying $8k in taxes, with the property tax ceiling imposed by Prop 13 actually makes CA cheaper in retirement than you might imagine.

Do the math on ALL the expenses.

joe189man

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2021, 11:10:49 AM »
yes, do the math, property tax and state and local sales tax can add up as well

here is a tax burden by state list

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494

dougules

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2021, 11:12:16 AM »
The answer to where to live is something that's going to vary a whole lot from person to person.  There are just so many factors and everyone's going to prioritize them differently.  Maybe tell us more about what you like and how much they matter to you.  Weather? COL?  Close to family and friends?  Local culture?  Close to ocean/mountains/forest/etc?  Urban/suburban/rural?  Plus so many other factors.

Have you checked out the Mustachian Relocation Guide thread?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/mustachian-relocation-guide/

Me personally I live where I am because it's really good for DH's career, and it's close to my family.  I live in my specific neighborhood because it's fairly cheap but still very central.  I would like to point out that if you're planning to live in an urban area, what neighborhood makes just as much difference as what city. 

After FIRE I hope to go somewhere else.  I lived in another city for a while when I was younger that I'd really like to move  back to after career is no longer a factor.  COL is going up there, though, so we'll see how that turns out.  The culture there was very different from where I am now, and I loved it.  Plus I really enjoyed the fact that I only used my car 3-4 times a month when I lived there vs. here where everything is very car-centered.  I think it's worth the COL difference to live there as it stands now.  If it keeps going up as it has been though, I will have to reevaluate.  I may also give Latin America a shot for urban living that isn't needlessly expensive. 

WA has cold weather, as does NH - Will you spend your savings on heating instead?

The PNW gets somewhat cold in the winter, but the wet side doesn't get any colder than AL really.  By those standards the only places in the US that are not cold in the winter are CA, FL, HI, AZ, and a few parts of TX. 

Catbert

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2021, 11:40:47 AM »
This is one of my favorite things to day dream about. @Malcat hit many of the major items and @StartingEarly hit taxes - which i think should be highly considered for FIRE folks. Taxes could be a huge budget item depending on where you live.


Taxes are an issue, but not a high issue. Most people mean "income tax free state" when they talk about taxes in FIRE. I would encourage others to actually do the math.

TX has very high property tax rates.

TN has not expanded Medicare.

FL is full of idiots. ;)

WA has cold weather, as does NH - Will you spend your savings on heating instead?

I think a holistic view matters more. For us, my retiree health insurance is worth $20k+ annually. So staying in CA and paying $8k in taxes, with the property tax ceiling imposed by Prop 13 actually makes CA cheaper in retirement than you might imagine.

Do the math on ALL the expenses.
+1  If you're going to consider taxes consider all of them and what they provide to you, your family and society.  If taxes are low, schools are shit and you pay 20K a year for private elementary schools what have you gained? 

Also as others have mentioned concern medical facilities even if you are currently healthy.  That can change quickly.  A friend retired to her dream home on a mountain in AZ.  Now she has breast cancer and a 2.5 hour drive to get chemo.

Villanelle

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2021, 12:12:54 PM »
My spouse is in the military so for now we have very little say in where we live.  But we spend a lot of time talking about where we will go when that is no longer the case.  Assuming he retires and doesn't move to take a job, the world is our oyster and as you said, that's overwhelming.

Overseas is an option for us, but probably not while we still have elderly parents.  I want to spend more time with them and that's tough when we are in Europe and they are in the US.  So proximity to parents is one factor.  A day's drive or less would be good, a few hours or less better, but probably not a hard requirement.  We want mild weather.  We hope for a robust, walkable area.  COL is a factor, having lived in very expensive areas nearly our entire lives, it's not as high on the list as other things.  We want to be an hour drive or less from a large airport.  Somewhere that does tax a military retirement would be nice, but also not required.  Diversity, and access to a variety of cultural and entertainment venues and options. 

Climate and water concerns are also creeping higher on the list.  Las Vegas has long been near the top of the list (though even before the last few years, one wouldn't call their summers 'mild'), but as it gets hotter I'm not so sure, and the water situation is concerning.  Coronado, CA has been the "if money weren't really an object" location, but rising sea levels and the possibility of severe storms starting to make it that far north make it less attractive. 

former player

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2021, 12:56:29 PM »
"Climate concerns" and "proximity to a large airport" in the same list of requirements suggests a certain level of disconnect (or merely selfishness?) about the future of the planet.

brandon1827

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2021, 01:58:27 PM »

Honestly, our latest idea is to be the opposite of snowbirds, traveling to cooler locales for the summer once we finally FIRE.

Would this make you...wait for it...Firebirds? Sorry...I couldn't resist

Wife and I live in a LCOL with no state income taxes. Family is all around us. We live in a college town with a vibrant recreation scene. Heat (humidity & heat index) can definitely get oppressive here during the summer months and winters are mild. We've loved being here our whole lives, but have recently started entertaining a move to somewhere coastal or perhaps even to Ireland when we retire. From a climate change perspective, I'm considering places south of the Great Lakes to establish ourselves and have something there to pass on to our son.

joe189man

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2021, 02:09:04 PM »
"Climate concerns" and "proximity to a large airport" in the same list of requirements suggests a certain level of disconnect (or merely selfishness?) about the future of the planet.

Kind of a trolling comment? This is about where to live not how

Metalcat

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2021, 02:16:03 PM »
"Climate concerns" and "proximity to a large airport" in the same list of requirements suggests a certain level of disconnect (or merely selfishness?) about the future of the planet.

Kind of a trolling comment? This is about where to live not how

The comment is critical, but it doesn't seem like trolling to me.

dougules

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2021, 02:59:06 PM »
"Climate concerns" and "proximity to a large airport" in the same list of requirements suggests a certain level of disconnect (or merely selfishness?) about the future of the planet.

Kind of a trolling comment? This is about where to live not how

The comment is critical, but it doesn't seem like trolling to me.

It makes sense on a certain level.  Plan for the problem instead of actually trying to mitigate it. 

Villanelle

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2021, 03:59:12 PM »
"Climate concerns" and "proximity to a large airport" in the same list of requirements suggests a certain level of disconnect (or merely selfishness?) about the future of the planet.

How so?  I know what you are getting at, but there are plenty of things that are good or bad for the planet, so to pick out one as the Big Baddie, and assume that if someone does that one thing they can't take climate concerns seriously seems a bit silly.  Once could examine the life of nearly anyone who has concerns about climate change and find plenty of things that are really bad for the planet and not strictly necessary. 

Would it be okay to have three children (or two?  or one?)  and be concerned about the climate, or would that be a "disconnect" and "selfish"?    What about someone who eats meat and claims to care about the climate? 

StartingEarly

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2021, 04:04:09 PM »
Washington really does not have cold weather, I lived in Olympia the first 9 years of my life, it snows like a week or two out of the year. Even then, Wisconsin is much much much colder and I think my dad averages like 100 a month for natural gas heating though he does have 6 inch thick walls instead of the typical 4. I'd say your energy costs in Washington are pretty low overall with the mild summers and mild winters at least near Seattle, other side of the mountains YMMV. Now, take two relatively high earning people sharing a house and if you're pushing 200k income that's over 20k income tax in some areas.

One thing to look out for is vehicle registration fees in some areas which can affect you if you have a lot or an expensive vehicle. Washington I know it can be over 1k a year to register some vehicles.

Dee18

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2021, 04:12:00 PM »
My partner and I spent many years in a southern city for work.  We have now retired and are currently renting for 4 months in the northeast in co-housing.  We so love the culture here that we are thinking of buying a place here, even though our initial "where we want to live" did not include places in the far north. The tricky thing to me about choosing a place to live is there is the macro choice (which would include being near relatives) and the micro (being in a neighborhood with great walkability, etc.). My sister and her husband moved to France when they retired.  They decided that they would live there five years and then decide whether to stay another five years.  They didn't want to constantly be re-evaluating their choice.  I'm planning to follow that pattern.  So my tentative plan is to buy a place here to live for 5 years...then reconsider.  If my daughter has children by then, I'll likely move to where she is. Covid  has led me to think in  a shorter time frame by reminding me the we don't know what the future holds. 

DaMa

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2021, 06:52:05 PM »
This is a great conversation.  Lots of good points to consider.

I chose to live near my children and grandchildren who are all within 25 miles now.  I would rather live somewhere else, but little kids are so adorable.

I also want to put in another +1 for available medical care.  My cousin has to drive 2.5 hours for cancer treatment and is going on 7 years.  I would try to stay within an hour of a big medical center.

Michigan has relatively LCOL and some really great areas.  The winters are usually mild in the SE part of the state.  No climate change worries, unless you live in a flood area.

former player

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2021, 11:28:11 PM »
"Climate concerns" and "proximity to a large airport" in the same list of requirements suggests a certain level of disconnect (or merely selfishness?) about the future of the planet.

How so?  I know what you are getting at, but there are plenty of things that are good or bad for the planet, so to pick out one as the Big Baddie, and assume that if someone does that one thing they can't take climate concerns seriously seems a bit silly.  Once could examine the life of nearly anyone who has concerns about climate change and find plenty of things that are really bad for the planet and not strictly necessary. 

Would it be okay to have three children (or two?  or one?)  and be concerned about the climate, or would that be a "disconnect" and "selfish"?    What about someone who eats meat and claims to care about the climate?
Of course there are many ways to contribute to climate change, although having children and eating meat seem remotely connected to where someone lives.  Anyone who thinks it important to live close to a major airport seems likely to be flying frequently enough for that to be a major contributor to overdrawing their carbon budget.

Morning Glory

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2021, 07:49:13 AM »
"Climate concerns" and "proximity to a large airport" in the same list of requirements suggests a certain level of disconnect (or merely selfishness?) about the future of the planet.

How so?  I know what you are getting at, but there are plenty of things that are good or bad for the planet, so to pick out one as the Big Baddie, and assume that if someone does that one thing they can't take climate concerns seriously seems a bit silly.  Once could examine the life of nearly anyone who has concerns about climate change and find plenty of things that are really bad for the planet and not strictly necessary. 

Would it be okay to have three children (or two?  or one?)  and be concerned about the climate, or would that be a "disconnect" and "selfish"?    What about someone who eats meat and claims to care about the climate?
Of course there are many ways to contribute to climate change, although having children and eating meat seem remotely connected to where someone lives.  Anyone who thinks it important to live close to a major airport seems likely to be flying frequently enough for that to be a major contributor to overdrawing their carbon budget.

Not necessarily: the airport might be a proxy for having a large enough city to have other cultural amenities like major sporting events or concerts. It's also possible that they just want their kids to visit them more often.

former player

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2021, 07:55:00 AM »
"Climate concerns" and "proximity to a large airport" in the same list of requirements suggests a certain level of disconnect (or merely selfishness?) about the future of the planet.

How so?  I know what you are getting at, but there are plenty of things that are good or bad for the planet, so to pick out one as the Big Baddie, and assume that if someone does that one thing they can't take climate concerns seriously seems a bit silly.  Once could examine the life of nearly anyone who has concerns about climate change and find plenty of things that are really bad for the planet and not strictly necessary. 

Would it be okay to have three children (or two?  or one?)  and be concerned about the climate, or would that be a "disconnect" and "selfish"?    What about someone who eats meat and claims to care about the climate?
Of course there are many ways to contribute to climate change, although having children and eating meat seem remotely connected to where someone lives.  Anyone who thinks it important to live close to a major airport seems likely to be flying frequently enough for that to be a major contributor to overdrawing their carbon budget.

Not necessarily: the airport might be a proxy for having a large enough city to have other cultural amenities like major sporting events or concerts. It's also possible that they just want their kids to visit them more often.

The exact phrase that caught my eye was "We want to be an hour drive or less from a large airport."  I'm finding it hard to see that as a proxy for "within reach of cultural amenities".  And further up the thread was the very similar "within an hour of an airport that Southwest or Jet Blue fly out of".

I don't suppose the environmental effect differs much between children flying to see their parents and parents flying to see their children.

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2021, 08:06:27 AM »

Honestly, our latest idea is to be the opposite of snowbirds, traveling to cooler locales for the summer once we finally FIRE.

Would this make you...wait for it...Firebirds? Sorry...I couldn't resist


Firebirds, I like that :)

This is my plan, since I have young kids that will make travel during the school year difficult. Im looking for someplace that's nice September-May then I can get away for the heat of the summer. By nice I mean no -40 windchills lol.

Linea_Norway

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2021, 08:20:26 AM »
"Climate concerns" and "proximity to a large airport" in the same list of requirements suggests a certain level of disconnect (or merely selfishness?) about the future of the planet.

In my case, I want to live not too far from a reasonable airport, so that I can relatively quickly visit my relatives abroad in case of emergency. It is bad enough to live abroad and leave most care to my brother. It would be okay if there goes a plane to somewhere central 2-3 times a day. Still, I don't use the airport most of the time, as driving is an alternative. Being FIREd, we usually have the time to take the longer travel route.

Villanelle

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2021, 08:50:13 AM »
"Climate concerns" and "proximity to a large airport" in the same list of requirements suggests a certain level of disconnect (or merely selfishness?) about the future of the planet.

How so?  I know what you are getting at, but there are plenty of things that are good or bad for the planet, so to pick out one as the Big Baddie, and assume that if someone does that one thing they can't take climate concerns seriously seems a bit silly.  Once could examine the life of nearly anyone who has concerns about climate change and find plenty of things that are really bad for the planet and not strictly necessary. 

Would it be okay to have three children (or two?  or one?)  and be concerned about the climate, or would that be a "disconnect" and "selfish"?    What about someone who eats meat and claims to care about the climate?
Of course there are many ways to contribute to climate change, although having children and eating meat seem remotely connected to where someone lives.  Anyone who thinks it important to live close to a major airport seems likely to be flying frequently enough for that to be a major contributor to overdrawing their carbon budget.

But what you said was that wanting airport access and being concerned about the environment is is disconnected and possibly selfish.  That too has nothing to do with where to live.  You took two things and said that holding both views was "disconnected" and  possibly selfish, unrelated to the context of where to live. So, are you concerned about the climate?  Do you eat meat or have kids?  Are you selfish, disconnected in your thinking, or both?  What is your thermostat set at?  What kind of car do you drive and how many miles per year? 

Why does air travel get special climate shame? 

(Oh, and for most people I know with children--especially minor children--that is probably the #1 factor in where to live, or secondary only to work access if the are still working.  Access to good schools.  Access to education.  Access to family.  Etc.) 

I get it.  It's fun to shit on travel as a carbon evil.  But it is hypocritical nearly all the time because it's an easy target when chances are there are many other life choices just as bad that get a free pass for some reason.  It's just the trendee target. 

I could do better in the climate/carbon context, certainly.  As could nearly all of us.  I could also do a lot worse.  To take ONE comment and extrapolate that I'm disconnected in my values and maybe selfish?  You almost need an airplane to make a leap that big. 
 

former player

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2021, 09:13:43 AM »
The point about air travel is that it is the one item that is absolutely and completely a choice, in that you can choose not to fly again, whereas you can't choose not to have children if you already have them.

And apparently something that people feel very defensive about.

dougules

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2021, 10:19:37 AM »
The point about air travel is that it is the one item that is absolutely and completely a choice, in that you can choose not to fly again, whereas you can't choose not to have children if you already have them.

And apparently something that people feel very defensive about.

Diet is even more changeable.  Meat consumption has a really big impact on both climate and habitat loss. 

former player

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2021, 10:24:48 AM »
The point about air travel is that it is the one item that is absolutely and completely a choice, in that you can choose not to fly again, whereas you can't choose not to have children if you already have them.

And apparently something that people feel very defensive about.

Diet is even more changeable.  Meat consumption has a really big impact on both climate and habitat loss.
People mostly don't choose not to eat again, though.  Are pasture-fed animals on land that is not much good for anything else worse for the environment than out of season vegetables that are flown in or grown in fossil-fuel heated greenhouses and polytunnels?

Villanelle

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2021, 11:43:32 AM »
The point about air travel is that it is the one item that is absolutely and completely a choice, in that you can choose not to fly again, whereas you can't choose not to have children if you already have them.

And apparently something that people feel very defensive about.

But does having had a child make someone selfish and disconnected from climate concerns?  Or is it only if they had a child and wont' say it was selfish and they wouldn't do it again if they had it to do over?  They cared more about having a child than the environmental impacts?  So... selfish? But if they wouldn't do it again if they had to, then they get a pass, I guess, since it is in the past?

Yes, it can't be changed.  But it is either selfish and disconnected (or was at the time it was made), or it is not.  If it is not, I'd love for you to explain how or why it is different. 

I'm not defensive.  I don't care if you think I'm a selfish, planet-killing ass.  But I'm going to point out the hypocrisy and unevenly applied logic in a critical statement that wasn't really on-topic but you went out of your way to make anyway.

Seeing plane travel be treated as a great climate evil has grown old, in light of the many, many other things human do that are at least as bad and
seem to get a free pass. 

But pointing that out maybe makes people.... defensive?

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2021, 12:00:02 PM »
The point about air travel is that it is the one item that is absolutely and completely a choice, in that you can choose not to fly again, whereas you can't choose not to have children if you already have them.

And apparently something that people feel very defensive about.

But does having had a child make someone selfish and disconnected from climate concerns?  Or is it only if they had a child and wont' say it was selfish and they wouldn't do it again if they had it to do over?  They cared more about having a child than the environmental impacts?  So... selfish? But if they wouldn't do it again if they had to, then they get a pass, I guess, since it is in the past?

Yes, it can't be changed.  But it is either selfish and disconnected (or was at the time it was made), or it is not.  If it is not, I'd love for you to explain how or why it is different. 

I'm not defensive.  I don't care if you think I'm a selfish, planet-killing ass.  But I'm going to point out the hypocrisy and unevenly applied logic in a critical statement that wasn't really on-topic but you went out of your way to make anyway.

Seeing plane travel be treated as a great climate evil has grown old, in light of the many, many other things human do that are at least as bad and
seem to get a free pass. 

But pointing that out maybe makes people.... defensive?
Anyone in the developed world who has a child does so knowing that it is likely to take up more than its fair share of the world's diminishing resources.  Feel free to characterise that decision how you wish.

Your post made several statements about wanting to protect yourself against future climate change.  And then implied you wanted future easy air travel.  I just pointed out that there is a problem with putting these two concepts together.

K_in_the_kitchen

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2021, 01:53:30 PM »

Honestly, our latest idea is to be the opposite of snowbirds, traveling to cooler locales for the summer once we finally FIRE.

Would this make you...wait for it...Firebirds? Sorry...I couldn't resist

FIREbirds -- I like it.

Our next door neighbors live in Alaska from early May through early September (although with Covid last year they stayed an extra 6 weeks).  They own a house there, and they also have a son, daughter-in-law, and grandchildren living there year round, so community is built in.

My SMIL lives inexpensively in a mobile home 3 miles from the beach in Orange County, CA.  But to have that she can't escape traffic pretty much all the time.

2sk22

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Re: How to choose where to live?
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2021, 10:13:54 AM »
My wife is still working so we can't move for the next few years in any case. However, even after she retires, we have decided we are staying put right here in New Jersey. Money is not a constraint for us - we can comfortably afford to live anywhere we want. We have lived in our house for over twenty years and have fixed all of the problems and brought it up to date. We like our neighbors (and they all are vaccinated) . It's a very quiet neighborhood but still within a few miles of Manhattan. Newark airport is just about 20 miles away.



 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!