How shocked should I be? (again, this time HR) +15 mo update

[Metric Mouse]

Hi everybody, when I originally started the thread, your collective wisdom really helped to give me an idea of what makes sense and what does not. Now I need another 'reality check'.

I have had more, shell we say, 'interesting' encounters with #3, the last of which was that he asked me to fudge his time card. "I do you a favor, you do me a favor...  You know, one hand washes the other..."  I of course did not do that.  I asked him to confirm that that's what he's asking me to do, in explicit terms, and he didn't take it back. Mind you, he had already been caught, about 18 months ago, doing the same thing, and the HR got permission to fire him at that time, and would have, if it weren't for my soft-hearted boss who saved his job (enabling!), and who, btw, keeps complaining that there are no consequences for these guys' behavior. (argh!)

So at this point, I figure it was appropriate to relate to the higher-ups what happened . I talk to big boss, she says "oh, wow", but wouldn't do anything about it.  I turn to HR boss, who says, "well he didn't actually do it, so we can't do anything about it".  And my reaction to that is: "?!?!".  Are they completely asleep at the wheel, or is there something to what they're saying?

I'm not up on HR rules, but I would guess that if big boss isn't going to push it, hr isn't going to push it; basically no one with any power cares enough to see this guy to the door, so nothing changes.

[former player]

OP: does you role as manager allow you to put something on the record?  Check the HR handbook and follow it precisely - it will set out what you can do and what is for others to do.  Others may take no action but that is no reason for you not to make an appropriate entry into the records and act on it as appropriate.

[milliemchi]

OP: does you role as manager allow you to put something on the record?  Check the HR handbook and follow it precisely - it will set out what you can do and what is for others to do.  Others may take no action but that is no reason for you not to make an appropriate entry into the records and act on it as appropriate.

I keep a log of the antics, but it's a file on my computer, nothing official. Does that count? I figured only stuff done by HR is official.

I can do the annual evaluation, but is not until late spring.

[former player]

OP: does you role as manager allow you to put something on the record?  Check the HR handbook and follow it precisely - it will set out what you can do and what is for others to do.  Others may take no action but that is no reason for you not to make an appropriate entry into the records and act on it as appropriate.

I keep a log of the antics, but it's a file on my computer, nothing official. Does that count? I figured only stuff done by HR is official.

I can do the annual evaluation, but is not until late spring.

Someone in HR will have a personnel file for this employee.  You should have the ability to send a note to be added to it.  For some employees who report to you that could be a commendation.  For this one it will be a note that this employee asked you to falsify (which I take it is what you mean by "fudge") his time card.  You will have it on the record and it will make you feel better.  Depending on your organisation's rules, you may have to copy the note to the employee.

[Catbert]

Remember, HR has already been down the pike with this guy and management (not you) wimped out at the last minute.  Likely dropped the issue after HR did its part of the work.

A cardinal rule in HR is to never care more than management does about an issue.  If they've learned that management won't stay the course on this guy they aren't going out of their way to do work. 

[nobody123]

Something doesn't add up here.  You are documenting issues, bosses have witnessed insubordination, you have proven that you can train replacements, and then he asks you to do something unethical (falsify a timesheet), and upper management won't back you on getting rid of him?  You need to figure out why they don't want to fire him.  We fire people if they lie about a $5 coffee on an expense form because it's an ethics violation.

[Metric Mouse]

Remember, HR has already been down the pike with this guy and management (not you) wimped out at the last minute.  Likely dropped the issue after HR did its part of the work.

A cardinal rule in HR is to never care more than management does about an issue.  If they've learned that management won't stay the course on this guy they aren't going out of their way to do work.

I would think this sums up the case quite well.  No one does anything about it because no one else does anything about it.  This is a company culture issue; very difficult to alter.

[Eco_eco]

I spent about 10 years all up working in HR. Some more thoughts to throw into the pot from me are:

1. what the OP is experiencing is quite typical for a new management job. You often get the joy of inheriting other people's mess.

2. don't be afraid to make changes. Don't be bound by the last guy/girl's mistakes

3. a key part of changing the culture of a team is setting expectations. Write out some expectations that you have for how the team will work and create an environment that you will be proud of (we will get the job done, we will support each other, we help other people in the company, etc). Make sure these are real statements, not management cliches and test them with your friends. Then just start using them in conversation and living them everyday at work (don't write them up and stick them on the wall - they will be instantly forgotten).

4. you are probably going to move the current people along. Performance management (while important) almost never works. Most people just out wait the manager and hope they will go away. Its very hard for an employee to change their practices once they are on an PM pathway. I'd try a positive path before reaching for the PM stick. What are the aspirations of your people? What motivates them? How can you help them get ready for the next step? If they don't have a next step what do they enjoy about their work? is there another role in the company they might do better in or enjoy more? Can you find a secondment role where you can lend them to another team? Get HR to help with this, make the next role for you people HR's problem to solve - meet HR weekly until they have found something.

5. Consider some investment in self-development to make you a better manager. Lot's of people talk about their 'leadership journey' as they have learned and developed leadership skills. If you can I'd get along to a Blanchard Situational Leadership course. This is the single best tool I've come across to learn how to manage different types of people. It basically shows you how to tailor your management approach to the type and experience of person you are working with. Its worth every dollar they charge.

[milliemchi]

Thank you everyone. This has been very helpful. Based on everybody's input, I called a meeting with HR boss and big boss to ask for an explanation. The meeting just happened two minutes ago. The HR boss explained that she's been through time card issues before (she has HR levels above her), and that the University needs concrete evidence, or we can't get anywhere. He said/she said does not cut it, I'm guessing because we're not a privately-run for-profit company. We have to catch #3 in the act. HR can give me access to his time card, so I can do random checks, and she can check when she stays late. Not my idea of fun, but maybe something good comes of it (e.g., a new employee).

Another thing I got is that #2 and #3 will be asked to clock in and out for their lunch breaks. #3 has a habit of leaving mid-afternoon to move his car, and sometimes I need him and he's not there. If we get to monitor their breaks, we can have 'concrete evidence' when they're not here, and claim that they are. There will of course be a pre-meeting to the meeting, etc.

This whole thing is just such a waste of time and effort. This is a large research University, and in 15 years, I have seen only a couple of other people with less than best work ethic. #3 is simply not invested in his job. Now we have to implement all these rules, when normally-motivated people get their work done without micro-managing.

[milliemchi]

I spent about 10 years all up working in HR. Some more thoughts to throw into the pot from me are:

1. what the OP is experiencing is quite typical for a new management job. You often get the joy of inheriting other people's mess.

2. don't be afraid to make changes. Don't be bound by the last guy/girl's mistakes

3. a key part of changing the culture of a team is setting expectations. Write out some expectations that you have for how the team will work and create an environment that you will be proud of (we will get the job done, we will support each other, we help other people in the company, etc). Make sure these are real statements, not management cliches and test them with your friends. Then just start using them in conversation and living them everyday at work (don't write them up and stick them on the wall - they will be instantly forgotten).

4. you are probably going to move the current people along. Performance management (while important) almost never works. Most people just out wait the manager and hope they will go away. Its very hard for an employee to change their practices once they are on an PM pathway. I'd try a positive path before reaching for the PM stick. What are the aspirations of your people? What motivates them? How can you help them get ready for the next step? If they don't have a next step what do they enjoy about their work? is there another role in the company they might do better in or enjoy more? Can you find a secondment role where you can lend them to another team? Get HR to help with this, make the next role for you people HR's problem to solve - meet HR weekly until they have found something.

5. Consider some investment in self-development to make you a better manager. Lot's of people talk about their 'leadership journey' as they have learned and developed leadership skills. If you can I'd get along to a Blanchard Situational Leadership course. This is the single best tool I've come across to learn how to manage different types of people. It basically shows you how to tailor your management approach to the type and experience of person you are working with. Its worth every dollar they charge.

Thank you eco. Part of my problem is that I am so new to management that I am still developing the idea of what the expectations should be. I come from and do research, and I'm managing staff - things are very different, and my workplace experience does not translate.  This forum has been really helpful. The other bosses (HR, big boss) are much more experienced, but too busy to do much mentoring and I'd like to save their attention for when I really need it. The information I get on the forum helps me strike the right tone when I ask for things, or explanations (like today).

I've googled Blanchard Situational Leadership quickly - I will make sure to at least read up on it. I have actually been reading up on management here and there, purely out of curiosity, and then it's been helpful when I found myself in this position. You never know when your learning will come in handy!

[Eco_eco]

Thank you eco. Part of my problem is that I am so new to management that I am still developing the idea of what the expectations should be. I come from and do research, and I'm managing staff - things are very different, and my workplace experience does not translate.  This forum has been really helpful. The other bosses (HR, big boss) are much more experienced, but too busy to do much mentoring and I'd like to save their attention for when I really need it. The information I get on the forum helps me strike the right tone when I ask for things, or explanations (like today).

I've googled Blanchard Situational Leadership quickly - I will make sure to at least read up on it. I have actually been reading up on management here and there, purely out of curiosity, and then it's been helpful when I found myself in this position. You never know when your learning will come in handy!

I really hope the meeting goes well for you and you are able to continue turning this around. My first three years were working in HR in a University and found the slower work pace and commitment to academic freedom had positives and negatives. it was a great and stimulating environment to work in but most academic staff didn't want anything to do with staff management and would tolerate performance which, in hindsight, was amazingly lax.

I'm new here but this forum looks like a great place to get insights and advice that is helpful - you commitment to making this work means your likely to be a great manager. IMHO you've struck a really hard first management job - the next one could be quite a bit easier!

[Goldielocks]

Can HR help you terminate him "without cause"//

e.g., shortage of work for someone with his skills.

What you don't say is what you are thinking " shortage of work for someone with his [lack of] skills [including working with others as a team member]"...

The challenge with that route is that you need to pay severance and can't fill the position for a few months, at least, so won't work if it is a majority of your department.

[nobody123]

Thank you everyone. This has been very helpful. Based on everybody's input, I called a meeting with HR boss and big boss to ask for an explanation. The meeting just happened two minutes ago. The HR boss explained that she's been through time card issues before (she has HR levels above her), and that the University needs concrete evidence, or we can't get anywhere. He said/she said does not cut it, I'm guessing because we're not a privately-run for-profit company. We have to catch #3 in the act. HR can give me access to his time card, so I can do random checks, and she can check when she stays late. Not my idea of fun, but maybe something good comes of it (e.g., a new employee).

Another thing I got is that #2 and #3 will be asked to clock in and out for their lunch breaks. #3 has a habit of leaving mid-afternoon to move his car, and sometimes I need him and he's not there. If we get to monitor their breaks, we can have 'concrete evidence' when they're not here, and claim that they are. There will of course be a pre-meeting to the meeting, etc.

This whole thing is just such a waste of time and effort. This is a large research University, and in 15 years, I have seen only a couple of other people with less than best work ethic. #3 is simply not invested in his job. Now we have to implement all these rules, when normally-motivated people get their work done without micro-managing.

If an employee is accused of harrassment, would they need "concrete evidence" before investigating?  It looks like the new timesheet / clock rules is their way of letting you gather what they need to get the process moving, though, so that's a good sign.  Although, if they've "been through it before" and didn't do anything about it, I wouldn't hold out much hope for them this time.  Good luck.

[Winter's Tale]

(Sorry if this has been recommended before) You should check out askamanager.org.  Excellent advice for all kinds of management issues as well as tips for dealing with HR.

[Dicey]

Another thought. If you had agreed to fudge his time card, YOU would have committed a firing offense. WTF, HR?

#2 & #3 sound like people who have no love for their jobs or enough self-respect to do a decent job despite their lack of interest. You have a hard row to hoe, but this is a tremendous opportunity for you personally and professionally. The dual skills of figuring out how to motivate people and to determine those who are without redemption are valuable indeed. Don't give up.

Quick tale. First job, my roommate and I worked together in retail.at some point, w got a terrible manager who was apparently the boy toy of his boss. Nothing could be done to persuade anyone else that he was an ass-boss. One night, at closing, my friend found money on the floor. She gave it to our boss to turn into security. He didn't and was finally fired.  Point: Look for other ways to oust these two. Security trumped HR in this situation.

One more: Later, I worked at a major comission-based retailer called, um, Nordstrom. You had to exceed your draw every pay period. Three misses in a row and you were at risk of termination. Occasionally, there would be an employee who was good at so many things, it was tempting to look the other way for as long as possible. In every case, when they were finally cut loose, they went on to much better things. One made quite a killing in real estate, no less. Getting fired from a job you no longer enjoy could be the ticket to a better life.

[nobody123]

Another thought. If you had agreed to fudge his time card, YOU would have committed a firing offense. WTF, HR?

That was my thought as well, but then OP said they were given access to the timesheet system.  So, OP would have to verbally agree to the shady deal, and when the inaccurate timesheet was formally submitted for approval, they would have concrete evidence.  However, since his supervisor would have told him it was OK, I could see him putting up a fight and saying that his superior authorized him to do it.  Then you have to fire either zero or both of them.

HR mostly cares about getting the bad behavior stopped.  Employee asked to fudge timesheet (bad), was refused and was told it was against policy (good), and employee did not submit a false timesheet (good).  All is well that ends well, nothing to discipline the employee for.  However, since there is apparently a history of this type of thing from this employee, I am surprised there wasn't a formal writeup and final strike notice given to the employee.

[Sibley]

(Sorry if this has been recommended before) You should check out askamanager.org.  Excellent advice for all kinds of management issues as well as tips for dealing with HR.

+1000

[Axecleaver]

In organizations like yours, paralyzed with indecision and a lack of leadership, HR will not help you, and will actively work against you to maintain the status quo, no matter how awful that is. HR only cares about their organization not being sued. They do not care if the work gets done. They don't care about bad behavior. They don't care how miserable the managers are.

One option you can exercise is to fire the employee on the spot, without going through all the HR recommended steps. You have that right. Wait until he makes another mistake, no matter how small. Then you fire him on the spot for that infraction. HR will complain that you didn't follow their termination rules, but you know from experience that they won't follow through with anything. The knowledge you have of HR's policies and willingness to enforce them, and your own boss's lack of interest in rocking the boat, means you can make that inertia process work for you instead of against you.

I learned this the hard way by following HR's recommendations with a bad employee. I spent a year dealing with the repercussions, including a harassment case that took many hours with company lawyers to refute. Eventually it was dropped and he got nothing, but it cost me a lot of time and energy. The next time I found myself in that situation, I fired the employee after his "third strike" using the method above. HR complained once, then all was forgotten and forgiven.

[EricL]

In organizations like yours, paralyzed with indecision and a lack of leadership, HR will not help you, and will actively work against you to maintain the status quo, no matter how awful that is. HR only cares about their organization not being sued. They do not care if the work gets done. They don't care about bad behavior. They don't care how miserable the managers are.

One option you can exercise is to fire the employee on the spot, without going through all the HR recommended steps. You have that right. Wait until he makes another mistake, no matter how small. Then you fire him on the spot for that infraction. HR will complain that you didn't follow their termination rules, but you know from experience that they won't follow through with anything. The knowledge you have of HR's policies and willingness to enforce them, and your own boss's lack of interest in rocking the boat, means you can make that inertia process work for you instead of against you.

I learned this the hard way by following HR's recommendations with a bad employee. I spent a year dealing with the repercussions, including a harassment case that took many hours with company lawyers to refute. Eventually it was dropped and he got nothing, but it cost me a lot of time and energy. The next time I found myself in that situation, I fired the employee after his "third strike" using the method above. HR complained once, then all was forgotten and forgiven.

Sounds like a good plan. If HR and management can't/won't respect/follow their own rules, why should you?  If the misbehaving employee's temper tantrums can win the day for them, why can't your's?  And if HR and management only have the guts to discipline you for doing your job, what's the point of keeping it anyway?  If properly documented that seems ground for your own discrimination law suit.

[Catbert]

In organizations like yours, paralyzed with indecision and a lack of leadership, HR will not help you, and will actively work against you to maintain the status quo, no matter how awful that is. HR only cares about their organization not being sued. They do not care if the work gets done. They don't care about bad behavior. They don't care how miserable the managers are.

One option you can exercise is to fire the employee on the spot, without going through all the HR recommended steps. You have that right. Wait until he makes another mistake, no matter how small. Then you fire him on the spot for that infraction. HR will complain that you didn't follow their termination rules, but you know from experience that they won't follow through with anything. The knowledge you have of HR's policies and willingness to enforce them, and your own boss's lack of interest in rocking the boat, means you can make that inertia process work for you instead of against you.

I learned this the hard way by following HR's recommendations with a bad employee. I spent a year dealing with the repercussions, including a harassment case that took many hours with company lawyers to refute. Eventually it was dropped and he got nothing, but it cost me a lot of time and energy. The next time I found myself in that situation, I fired the employee after his "third strike" using the method above. HR complained once, then all was forgotten and forgiven.

This is monumentally bad advice.  In a bureaucratic (possibly governmental) organization like a university, OP probably doesn't have the authority to fire anyone.   Certainly in the Federal government (where my experience was) an immediate supervisor wouldn't have authority to fire anyone - or unilaterally do anything beyond a letter of reprimand or similar.   OP might well be subject to discipline for sending an employee home and telling them not to come back. 

[nobody123]

In organizations like yours, paralyzed with indecision and a lack of leadership, HR will not help you, and will actively work against you to maintain the status quo, no matter how awful that is. HR only cares about their organization not being sued. They do not care if the work gets done. They don't care about bad behavior. They don't care how miserable the managers are.

One option you can exercise is to fire the employee on the spot, without going through all the HR recommended steps. You have that right. Wait until he makes another mistake, no matter how small. Then you fire him on the spot for that infraction. HR will complain that you didn't follow their termination rules, but you know from experience that they won't follow through with anything. The knowledge you have of HR's policies and willingness to enforce them, and your own boss's lack of interest in rocking the boat, means you can make that inertia process work for you instead of against you.

I learned this the hard way by following HR's recommendations with a bad employee. I spent a year dealing with the repercussions, including a harassment case that took many hours with company lawyers to refute. Eventually it was dropped and he got nothing, but it cost me a lot of time and energy. The next time I found myself in that situation, I fired the employee after his "third strike" using the method above. HR complained once, then all was forgotten and forgiven.

This is monumentally bad advice.  In a bureaucratic (possibly governmental) organization like a university, OP probably doesn't have the authority to fire anyone.   Certainly in the Federal government (where my experience was) an immediate supervisor wouldn't have authority to fire anyone - or unilaterally do anything beyond a letter of reprimand or similar.   OP might well be subject to discipline for sending an employee home and telling them not to come back.

I agree that this is horrible advice.  A university is a machine and you need to play by the rules, even if you don't like the result.  If you go it alone and "fire" someone without HR's involvement, I guarantee you will the the only one out of a job. 

[Axecleaver]

It's what has worked for me in a corporate environment. Your mileage in the ivory tower may vary.

[milliemchi]

OK, finally I have some good news to report. After being neglected by Big Boss for a while (she was busy with other things), I reached out, asked for a couple of meetings with concrete agendas, and now I am getting some mentoring.

In January, #2’s (shifty/lying) and #3’s (lazy/insubordinate) staged a mutiny. They requested to get back the control of booking. They did that to be able to come to work whenever, and #3 even stated as much. But they sold it to Non-Mean Boss. I got disturbed enough that I pressed Big Boss on doing something about them not coming in at their scheduled hours. She said yes, (yeah!), and I was able to convince her and HR Boss that we should write them up for that. As we were getting ready to do that, I discovered that they have let some medication expire, and both got a written reprimand on that (skipped verbal). #3 (lazy/insubordinate) lied some, then disagreed, then took credit for having done it at some earlier time (?!), and then refused to sign the form initially.

After that, I caught #2 (shifty/lying) doing time theft,  I know he’s been doing it for a while, but I only had it documented for that week, so he was getting a final warning before firing. We met with him, he didn’t know we were only going to do a final warning, and this is a fireable offense, so he started to sweat visibly and to lie, and lie, and lie, and lie. It was pitiful to listen to. He ultimately got off on a technicality, but must have been scared shitless because after that he was always on time, always getting stuff done, showing initiative and setting up things without being told to, and he never again tried to tell me that they are just too busy to get anything minor I ask for done.

Next, we had meetings with #2 and #3 to make sure they are aware of the attendance policy and job description. Now it is actionable if they ignore their scheduled hours, and we can justify dinging them on evaluations when they don’t do a task. #3 refused to look at the University policy, claimed that his lawyer needs to review it, that it doesn’t apply to him, then attacked me personally, and got the final written warning before getting fired. #2 took issue with a job requirement, I told him that he is claiming disability, he came back with an equivocal doctor's note, on a Friday I implemented reasonable accommodation by putting him on the 11-7p shift, and the following Monday he didn’t have the disability any more and was ready to get trained for the task. He organized the training all by himself (initiative!), but he’s not getting back on the morning shift any time soon, as I don’t want to screw over #3, who now got the morning shift

So I am now getting buy-in from higher-ups. I also feel more confident after these events that they are bad, bad employees and that my instincts were right. I also feel more confident that I can get support for corrective action when (not if) they mess up again. Big Boss also told me that what we have on hand is extreme, she is aware now, and that she hasn’t dealt with things this bad before, so that clarified my initial confusion. It is also clear that I cannot work on ‘leading/developing them as part of a team’. After witnessing theft (#2) and not being contrite about letting medication expire and (on paper) putting subjects in danger (#3), I’m done. I also feel more confident about expressing my suggestions to the higher ups - I’ve been doing this for over a year now, and they trust my opinion. It is just good to be able to ‘find myself on the map’ as opposed to being lost like I was at the beginning.

Things are finally moving. I want to thank everybody here who shared their experience and gave me guidance during the initial months of being new and green and hesitant and lost. I am looking forward to more wisdom. :)

[arebelspy]

Well done! Documenting all of it is the way to go. Nice work.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

In my experience of repeatedly going into a new business with the task of overhauling the culture and systems, staff with an entitled, half arsed attitude simply won't change. They may be perfectly capable of it, but they'll dig their heels in and hang on, especially if they're in a little pack of people with a similar attitude. Your choice is either move them on or split the pack up and individually move them sideways. From what I've read on this thread, you're on the right track documenting everything for a mass extinction event! One down, two to go. There isn't another option with these sorts of people.