Author Topic: How much to put in my 401K?  (Read 8769 times)

shelfins

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How much to put in my 401K?
« on: April 13, 2013, 03:51:03 PM »
Hey guys,

I'm trying to figure out the best place to put my extra savings. Basically, my strategy up until now has been:

1. put money in my 401k up to the full employer match (~$3000)
2. put money in a ROTH IRA up to max allowed (this year, $5500)
3. put remainder in a regular, non tax-sheltered, Vanguard fund

My question: I have the option of putting tons more money in my 401k, just with no employer match. Should that be my bucket 3 instead of the non-sheltered Vanguard fund? I haven't been doing that so far because I'm in a reasonably low tax bracket now (I make $44,000 a year, current marginal tax rate is 15%, w ~8.5% of my non-401k income going to taxes overall), so it's unclear to me if I'm better off putting it in the 401k & paying no taxes now, but then paying ordinary income tax on all the money when I spend it, OR paying the taxes now, putting it in a Vanguard fund, and then only paying capital gains tax on the interest whenever I spend it. What do you guys think? I'm taking a 2nd look at this now bc I'm about to start a part-time job where I'll be earning another ~5k a year, which means a lot more money will be going into savings bucket 3, and I want to make sure that it's going to the best place possible.

(I realize that it would be helpful for you guys to know when I plan on retiring, and how much I plan on spending when I retire, but I'm not sure about either of those things yet. Also, this may be a relatively small factor, but I currently live in a no-state-or-local-income-tax area, and almost certainly will not post-retirement, so that's another thing causing me to lean towards paying the bulk of the taxes now rather than later.)

James

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Re: How much to put in my 401K?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2013, 04:19:03 PM »
Sounds like you have a good handle on the choice you need to make, not a real obvious answer to be had I don't think. One major consideration is when you would want to use the money. If you want access to the money before age 55 then don't use the 401k. If you expect your tax bracket will be significantly higher in retirement than now then don't use the 401k.  Otherwise I don't see any reason not to take the tax advantage, even though it won't be a huge savings. Using the 401k is a double advantage over the non-sheltered fund, you are able to put more into the 401k because it isn't taxed first, and then the account grows tax free. While it doesn't seem like much the first year, the compounding of the differences really add up over time. (which goes back to when you expect to use this money) It's possible your taxes will be higher than they currently are when you take money from your 401k, but they would have to be a lot higher to outweigh the known tax advantages.


I guess I'd recommend contributing more than you are currently to the 401k.  During the withdrawal years you can choose from the three buckets you will have (401k, Roth, and non-sheltered), in a way that minimizes your tax burden.  I would fill your 401k bucket up first, since it will grow fastest without tax on earnings slowing it down.  The filling of your Roth is governed by the limit just fine.  Once you have built up your 401k to a point you are happy with, I would then switch to the non-sheltered bucket since that will face the largest headwind on growth over time.

GreenGuava

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Re: How much to put in my 401K?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2013, 04:35:14 PM »
The short answer is, you haven't given us enough information yet.  Some of this you've acknowledged, some you haven't.

* What is the quality of the funds in your 401(k)?  In particular, are there low-cost index options?   On a related note, how long do you plan to stay at your current employer?  For example, if you're a Google or IBM employee, you have access to some fantastic fund choices and you may want to take advantage of that.

* How well prepared for post-59.5 are you?  IMO, it's best to take advantage of the tax-preferred methods of saving for that part of your life, when the option of using human capital for income is less than it is when you're younger.  There's a such thing has having too much in your 401(k), but it doesn't sound as if you're there yet.  My personal aim is to have "enough" in tax advantaged accounts to have "enough" post-59.5 with non-optimistic (but not disastrously pessimistic) projections.

* How long do you plan to stay at your current employer?  This affects the timeline a little bit - if the fund choices are poor, but you're planning to move jobs soon, then taking advantage of the extra space now (assuming you want that space) is a different trade-off.

* Does your employer offer a Roth option in the 401(k)?  At your income level, this might be a better option while forming your tax-advantaged accounts.


OR paying the taxes now, putting it in a Vanguard fund, and then only paying capital gains tax on the interest whenever I spend it.

Careful with your terminology here, because things are different.  If you are focusing on total return (I think this is fundamentally important overall, far more than dividend income, all other things being equal) and risk control (something very important), then you'll have some money growth in various forms.  In taxable, you'll have capital gains, which you don't pay until you sell the funds.  You'll have dividends, which are taxed when they happen (whether or not you re-invest them), but are not taxed at the full level of additional income (it's different than if you had that much extra in your paycheck).  There will also be some things that are taxed as normal income:  non-tax advantaged bond payments (at your income level, the difference isn't much:  if you were in the 28% bracket, you might have wanted to consider muni bonds if you're holding bonds in taxable) and REITs (I think - I don't own any, much less in taxable.  I think their distributions are taxed as normal income).

shelfins

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Re: How much to put in my 401K?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2013, 05:54:26 PM »
Thanks so much for the helpful replies! You both brought up points I hadn't been considering.

To answer some of your questions, GreenGuava:
*The funds in my 401K are Fidelity, and the expense ratio for the one I'm using (a target date index fund) is 0.64%. The expense ratio for a similar fund @ Vanguard is only 0.18%, so maybe I should just put the money in a (non-ROTH) IRA there, rather than the 401k? They offer the same tax benefits, right?
In any case, I only plan to work for my current company for ~2 more years, so it won't be sitting there for too long. From what I can tell, the funds are similar to the kinds I could get on my own through Vanguard, but fewer options & higher expense ratios.

*I'm definitely not at the point of having too much in my 401(k) (I only have $30k in retirement-specific savings), but I am in a line of work where in ~2 years, when I leave my current job for the next one, my income will likely increase by 30-40k. So I'm going to have a big extra chunk of money to save each year, and I'm going to have a much stronger tax incentive to put as much of it as I can in tax-sheltered retirement savings vehicles. Given that, I thought it might be wiser to save up the pre-60 retirement money now, and do the post-60 savings when the tax advantages are greater.

*My employer does offer a ROTH IRA, but my understanding is that you can only contribute $5500 total to ROTH IRAs a year, and I'm already maxing that out with my personally-held Vanguard ROTH IRA.

Re: dividends, that's a good point. I wasn't thinking abt them bc I don't pay taxes on them @ my current income level, but obv when my income jumps, I will. I don't have a very clear grasp of how big a difference that will make...do you think that tips the balance towards IRA/401k over non-tax-advantaged?

Re: bonds/REITs, I don't own REITs, and I try to keep all my bonds in my ROTH for exactly this reason, so I'd only be buying stocks in the taxable account, if I were to go that route.

GreenGuava

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Re: How much to put in my 401K?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2013, 06:35:18 PM »
Thanks so much for the helpful replies! You both brought up points I hadn't been considering.

To answer some of your questions, GreenGuava:
*The funds in my 401K are Fidelity, and the expense ratio for the one I'm using (a target date index fund) is 0.64%. The expense ratio for a similar fund @ Vanguard is only 0.18%, so maybe I should just put the money in a (non-ROTH) IRA there, rather than the 401k? They offer the same tax benefits, right?
In any case, I only plan to work for my current company for ~2 more years, so it won't be sitting there for too long. From what I can tell, the funds are similar to the kinds I could get on my own through Vanguard, but fewer options & higher expense ratios.


Roth 401(k) and Roth IRA are the same once the money is in there, especially after you roll your Roth 401(k) to your Roth IRA upon leaving your job.  However, the amounts you can put in vary.

Are there any funds in your 401(k) that have expense ratios lower than the target date fund?  If so, it might be worth rolling your own target date (whether or not to include taxable in your total portfolio for this is another matter for another time).  If such funds exist, I can help you out with that.  If you end up investing in taxable and treating it as one big portfolio, you'll pretty much need to roll your own at that point.


*I'm definitely not at the point of having too much in my 401(k) (I only have $30k in retirement-specific savings), but I am in a line of work where in ~2 years, when I leave my current job for the next one, my income will likely increase by 30-40k. So I'm going to have a big extra chunk of money to save each year, and I'm going to have a much stronger tax incentive to put as much of it as I can in tax-sheltered retirement savings vehicles. Given that, I thought it might be wiser to save up the pre-60 retirement money now, and do the post-60 savings when the tax advantages are greater.

Alternately, do as much Roth as you can now, while you're at a lower tax rate, and do traditional later -- when you'll also be able to put aside pre-60 money.  But you probably don't want to do much traditional right now (employer contribution has to go into traditional, unless you want to be taxed on it, and even then, you might not have that option).  Plus, there's a limited space each year - if you fail to fill it in 2013, you don't get to fill more later, even if you can afford to do so later.  This is not a restriction in taxable accounts.

Oh, one nitpick:  it's Roth, not ROTH, as it's named after a person and isn't an acronym.


*My employer does offer a ROTH IRA, but my understanding is that you can only contribute $5500 total to ROTH IRAs a year, and I'm already maxing that out with my personally-held Vanguard ROTH IRA.

Big misunderstanding - this is huge, and may affect your strategy. 

Your employer doesn't offer an IRA (even if you work for a company that manages IRAs).  That 'I' stands for 'individual' - as in, you set it up and you manage it.

The 401(k) limit is $17,500 for under-50 in 2013 (that's for your contribution;  employer contributions don't count towards that, but the two combined have to be under $51,000 - probably not a worry, and if it is, may I send you my resume?).  That's combined, traditional and Roth.  There's an IRA limit of $5500 for the same people - this is independent of the 401(k);  theoretically, you could put $23,000 away into both combined this year (I did $22,000 of individual contributions in 2012 - the maximum under that year's limits). 

The IRA limit of $5500 is for both traditional and Roth IRAs combined, total (you're eligible for a deduction for the traditional at your annual pay, but it might not be a big help to you this year).

So... to summarize so far, it might be worth switching some or all of your employer plan money to the Roth 401(k) - and notice that this does not affect what you can contribute to the Roth IRA.  Also notice that your employer match goes to the traditional portion, as it's a pre-tax benefit. 

(I suppose when you leave you could roll it to a t-IRA and that to a Roth IRA, and pay taxes on it then, but it probably isn't worth doing.)

Re: dividends, that's a good point. I wasn't thinking abt them bc I don't pay taxes on them @ my current income level, but obv when my income jumps, I will. I don't have a very clear grasp of how big a difference that will make...do you think that tips the balance towards IRA/401k over non-tax-advantaged?

Re: bonds/REITs, I don't own REITs, and I try to keep all my bonds in my ROTH for exactly this reason, so I'd only be buying stocks in the taxable account, if I were to go that route.

These two things combined show that you understand asset allocation over multiple accounts and tax-efficient fund placement... good :-)

I don't think the dividend thing makes a huge difference - it's maybe 2% tops, unless you're in a dividend-focused fund.  In tax-advantaged, I focus on total return for each asset class, and in taxable, I focus on the same, but I have to deduct the taxes on dividends when determining what that return actually is. 

shelfins

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Re: How much to put in my 401K?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2013, 07:37:34 PM »
Wow, yes, I completely misunderstood the difference between the Roth IRA and the Roth 401(k)...I didn't realize I could contribute as much as I want (for all practical purposes) to the Roth 401(k). That seems like the clear option over the non-tax-sheltered fund. So, given my current situation, do you think I'm better off putting my money in the Roth 401(k) than the regular 401(k)?

You were also dead right about looking into other funds w. lower expense ratios...it looks there's a stock market index fund that has an expense ratio of 0.05% and a bond index fund with an expense ratio of 0.10%. I didn't realize the difference would be so huge! I'll definitely switch over to those.

GreenGuava

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Re: How much to put in my 401K?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2013, 08:11:59 PM »
Wow, yes, I completely misunderstood the difference between the Roth IRA and the Roth 401(k)...I didn't realize I could contribute as much as I want (for all practical purposes) to the Roth 401(k). That seems like the clear option over the non-tax-sheltered fund. So, given my current situation, do you think I'm better off putting my money in the Roth 401(k) than the regular 401(k)?

At the 15% bracket, yes, I'd say Roth is a better option.  When you move up to the next bracket (and/or to a state with an income tax), re-consider.  Or even ask here.  If you weren't moving up, I'd say to do some balancing, because post-60, you'll want to at least be able to draw income to fill some or all of a 0% bracket -- so a saving of 15% now would be worth it for that time.  But since you'll be contributing to traditional later, take the Roth saving now.

You were also dead right about looking into other funds w. lower expense ratios...it looks there's a stock market index fund that has an expense ratio of 0.05% and a bond index fund with an expense ratio of 0.10%. I didn't realize the difference would be so huge! I'll definitely switch over to those.

Yeah.  Hmm... Vanguard signal class funds or something else?

I'm 99% sure you've read these, from things you've said that indicate understanding the concepts, but just in case, you've read Bogleheads Wiki: Asset Allocation in Multiple Accounts and Bogleheads Wiki: Principles of Tax-Efficient Fund Placement, right?

Zaga

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Re: How much to put in my 401K?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2013, 07:05:25 AM »
Wow, yes, I completely misunderstood the difference between the Roth IRA and the Roth 401(k)...I didn't realize I could contribute as much as I want (for all practical purposes) to the Roth 401(k). That seems like the clear option over the non-tax-sheltered fund. So, given my current situation, do you think I'm better off putting my money in the Roth 401(k) than the regular 401(k)?

You were also dead right about looking into other funds w. lower expense ratios...it looks there's a stock market index fund that has an expense ratio of 0.05% and a bond index fund with an expense ratio of 0.10%. I didn't realize the difference would be so huge! I'll definitely switch over to those.
Wonderful!  It's great that you have the Roth 401-K option.  I'll just reiterate what Green Guava said, as long as you're in the 15% tax bracket I think you should fill as much Roth space as you can.  Once you tip over into the 25% or higher bracket then traditional becomes more attractive.  At that point use as much traditional as you need to get down to the 15% bracket, then Roth for the rest.

Also, those 2 funds you have look great!  I'd jump on those!  Since you're with Fidelity I'd guess those are Spartan Funds, we invest in those in one 401-K, 2 Roths and a Rollover IRA.

shelfins

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Re: How much to put in my 401K?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2013, 10:16:03 AM »
Cool, thanks so much. @GreenGuava, I've read The Boglehead's Guide to Investing, but not the wiki pages. Very helpful. You guys have been really tremendous...thank you!

 

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