Author Topic: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car? **OP update post #34**  (Read 2425 times)

desert_phoenix

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I try to make good financial decisions. My pre-tax take home is around $98,000 a year.

I invest ~$27,000 a year all in on tax advantaged accounts and none in regular brokerage.

I have around $332k invested between retirement accounts and a brokerage. (I took a pay cut a few years ago for less stress which i why I only max tax advantaged stuff no and do not do any brokerage investing currently.)

My take home pay with all of the above is basically $2,000 on the dot every two weeks.

My monthly mortgage + hoa total is $1665.87 and all of my utilities (including phone and internet) comes in under $200 a month. The rest is food and whatever else.

Like.....do people here ever talk themselves into big purchases and regret it? Haha. I feel like I have so internalized the MMM ethos that I feel guilty about the idea of spending money.  I am looking at a brand new Hyundai Elantra Hybrid.  The base model trim with the options I want is 25k before tax, tag, and title. If I put 5k or 7k down.....I mean, it seems so affordable, lol. Like, I feel like people who make less than I do with more debt than me (debt free outside of the mortgage) make things like this work.

How bad of an idea is this?  Is it not a big deal or is it the first step to becoming an out of control spender?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 08:27:52 PM by desert_phoenix »

Jack0Life

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2021, 07:32:57 PM »
I bought a brand new 2019 CRV a couple of yrs ago and I'm still 50/50 on if it was a good buy or not.
I bought a new last year model which brought a rice down bit and did the 60 months at 1.9% for $441/month.
the main reasons were 1) I never had a new car 2) It had all the new technology stuff(adaptive cruise, lane assists, etc...) 3) Used CRVs were not that much cheaper.
But every month I keep telling myself I wish I didn't have that $441 payment.
You make pretty good money. That $25k isn't going to break you in the long run.

RWD

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2021, 07:37:12 PM »
There are certainly worse financial decisions you could make.

Malcat

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2021, 07:48:25 PM »
You're asking multiple different questions.

Do I ever regret making large purchase? No, because I assess carefully all of my large purchases.

Is a new car "affordable"? I don't know, depends on the new car, why you want a new car, and what trade offs you are willing to make for it.

Are other people less cautious with their finances? Yeah
Should that have ANY impact on you? Hell no

Make decisions for yourself, make sure they align with your goals, then don't think much further about it.

use2betrix

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2021, 08:17:38 PM »
We bought two new cars last year. 2020 F250 and 2020 Toyota Corolla. I regret the corolla and will be replacing it (wife’s car). Between the loud road noise, minimal ground clearance, and low profile tires.. My wife likes it a fair share but it bugs me more and more.

The F250 is totally non-mustachian, but I absolutely love it. I make a lot of sacrifices in other parts of my life, and my income/net worth it supports it alright. We also have a small fiberglass camping trailer we tow with it. Way more truck than we need, but do at least use it to tow (towed around 5k miles in the last year).
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 07:11:28 AM by use2betrix »

Sandi_k

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2021, 08:56:37 PM »
I bought a 2019 Toyota RAV4 hybrid. OTD was $42k.

I wrote a check for $28k, and had a $320 monthly payment for 4 years (paid off in 17 months).

I spent ~ $600 in interest over that 17 months, which means it paid for itself after 3 months. Pre-hybrid? $400 per month in gas. Post-hybrid? $200 per month in gas.

No regrets. I plan on keeping it for 10 years or so.

MayDay

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2021, 09:02:10 PM »
I have higher household income and networth than you, for reference.

In June 2020 my 16 year old car died. It was peak covid and my husband was working 7 days a week making N95's so there was no option for me to not have a car.

I basically went and bought a new car even though I knew it wasn't the best long term choice because I could not even deal with any of the alternatives.

Now one year later it is fine or whatever but I don't love the car. It certainly wasn't a financially terrible decision but otoh the car is meh. For reference I replaced a 2003 civic with a 2019 insight that cost about 19k.

In summary my advice is to take your time and really think about why you are doing it and how that will feel 5 years from now. I fully acknowledged at the time I was doing it out of convenience/to minimize the chances of dying of covid. That doesn't really stand the test of time and now I'm less than thrilled about the car. But I'd probably still do the same thing if the circumstances repeated themselves.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 09:05:19 PM by MayDay »

desert_phoenix

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2021, 09:11:10 PM »
I have higher household income and networth than you, for reference.

In June 2020 my 16 year old car died. It was peak covid and my husband was working 7 days a week making N95's so there was no option for me to not have a car.

I basically went and bought a new car even though I knew it wasn't the best long term choice because I could not even deal with any of the alternatives.

Now one year later it is fine or whatever but I don't love the car. It certainly wasn't a financially terrible decision but otoh the car is meh. For reference I replaced a 2003 civic with a 2019 insight that cost about 19k.

In summary my advice is to take your time and really think about why you are doing it and how that will feel 5 years from now. I fully acknowledged at the time I was doing it out of convenience/to minimize the chances of dying of covid. That doesn't really stand the test of time and now I'm less than thrilled about the car. But I'd probably still do the same thing if the circumstances repeated themselves.

This really resonates with me. I am someone in that sort of in-between where maybe just getting a solid bicycle would make my lifestyle work more effectively. But dropping 25k on a sweet car seems more fun than 10% of that for a stellar bike, haha. Maybe I just need to get over it.  I appreciate you weighing in.

I almost feel like even taking the time to post this question sort of answers it for me.

Malcat

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2021, 09:14:02 PM »
I have higher household income and networth than you, for reference.

In June 2020 my 16 year old car died. It was peak covid and my husband was working 7 days a week making N95's so there was no option for me to not have a car.

I basically went and bought a new car even though I knew it wasn't the best long term choice because I could not even deal with any of the alternatives.

Now one year later it is fine or whatever but I don't love the car. It certainly wasn't a financially terrible decision but otoh the car is meh. For reference I replaced a 2003 civic with a 2019 insight that cost about 19k.

In summary my advice is to take your time and really think about why you are doing it and how that will feel 5 years from now. I fully acknowledged at the time I was doing it out of convenience/to minimize the chances of dying of covid. That doesn't really stand the test of time and now I'm less than thrilled about the car. But I'd probably still do the same thing if the circumstances repeated themselves.

This really resonates with me. I am someone in that sort of in-between where maybe just getting a solid bicycle would make my lifestyle work more effectively. But dropping 25k on a sweet car seems more fun than 10% of that for a stellar bike, haha. Maybe I just need to get over it.  I appreciate you weighing in.

I almost feel like even taking the time to post this question sort of answers it for me.

A used car is just a car that was a "sweet car" a few years earlier. Your "sweet" new car rapidly becomes a run of the mill used car.

If it's a question of buying a car at all, that's a totally different question.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2021, 10:46:40 PM »
If it is a stupid idea depends how long you plan to keep it. Sell it in 2 years? Stupid idea to buy it new. Keep it for 10? Probably not stupid. Keep it for 15? Almost certainly not stupid.

Our 2009 Honda Fit Sport w/Nav (we wanted traction control and that's the only way to get it at the time) MSRP'd at 21k, negotiated to 18k sticker, plus taxes and fees, minus cash for clunkers and the scrap value of said clunker. Probably ~15k out the door, paid cash. We'll be at 12 years next month. There's a few more years in it, but it is also limited. We're seeing rust creep out from under metal-plastic interfaces around the bottom of the car, so eventually someone will get an engine with a lot of life left (<90k miles on the odo) to put in a car with less rust.

So I guess I'm say it depends on context. What is the average age of cars when you get rid of them? How risky is it that you'll feel the need for something different in the future and "have" to switch cars?

Malcat

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2021, 05:59:10 AM »
If it is a stupid idea depends how long you plan to keep it. Sell it in 2 years? Stupid idea to buy it new. Keep it for 10? Probably not stupid. Keep it for 15? Almost certainly not stupid.

Our 2009 Honda Fit Sport w/Nav (we wanted traction control and that's the only way to get it at the time) MSRP'd at 21k, negotiated to 18k sticker, plus taxes and fees, minus cash for clunkers and the scrap value of said clunker. Probably ~15k out the door, paid cash. We'll be at 12 years next month. There's a few more years in it, but it is also limited. We're seeing rust creep out from under metal-plastic interfaces around the bottom of the car, so eventually someone will get an engine with a lot of life left (<90k miles on the odo) to put in a car with less rust.

So I guess I'm say it depends on context. What is the average age of cars when you get rid of them? How risky is it that you'll feel the need for something different in the future and "have" to switch cars?

It actually depends on how long you keep it AND how much you drive it.

StartingEarly

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2021, 08:34:53 AM »
For me they still refuse to make what I want and haven't made anything like it for 15 years so I buy used for my long range travel car. I still can't believe there isn't a gas car that can get 55mpg at 80mph yet, it's actually pretty embarrassing for the automotive industry on the whole.

RWD

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2021, 09:20:34 AM »
For me they still refuse to make what I want and haven't made anything like it for 15 years so I buy used for my long range travel car. I still can't believe there isn't a gas car that can get 55mpg at 80mph yet, it's actually pretty embarrassing for the automotive industry on the whole.
1 gallon of gas contains 33.4 kWh of energy. It requires about 28 kW to maintain 80 mph in a 0.29 Cd vehicle. So 55 mpg would require the engine (plus drivetrain) to be 58% efficient at converting gasoline to power ((80 miles / 28 kWh) * 33.4 kWh * Eff). Direct injection engines have about a 35% efficiency (minus drivetrain losses) and there are some Formula 1 engines that can hit 50% efficiency (but those aren't designed to last longer than ~1,500 miles).

So its very unlikely we'll ever be able to achieve 55 mpg at 80 mph with advances in engine efficiency alone. There are some ultra aerodynamic cars that can probably do it (see VW XL1), but it requires severe compromises in other areas (practicality, cost, etc).

darknight

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2021, 09:59:57 AM »
Honestly you taking a couple extra days to make the decision is huge. I was just about to drop the coin on a kayak setup i've been wanting for a couple of years. ~$1300 otd. My wife who lets me buy anything asked "how much better will it be paddling around the small local lake (that we go to 95% of the time) than a $350 one?"

She was right. I passed on it realizing that if we travel anywhere to larger more exciting lakes I could rent one, and I normally spend most of my time swimming at the lake anyways.

Not sure how that translates, maybe ask what benefit the $25,000 car brings over a $5,000 used camry. Used camry/corolla - absolutely boring as hell but good mpg and cheap.

JLee

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2021, 10:36:35 AM »
FWIW I bought a new Model 3 LR last year with state incentives ($5k rebate and no sales tax) and I do not regret it.  Transaction costs are typically high for cars (e.g. you pay the full amount of sales tax whether you keep it for two years or 20), and with Tesla depreciation being so low (at least thus far) the math worked.  I actually refinanced it recently to pay my solar loan off (went from 3.99%/~8 yr to 1.99% / 5 yr).  I am too much of a car nut to drive reasonable fuel efficient vehicles (everything I own tends to be either 4x4 / off road focused or fast, neither of which lend themselves well to fuel economy). Unfortunately I picked it up right literally the day we went WFH due to covid, so I don't have a lot of useful/comparable data in my vehicle costs spreadsheets. 

The normal / reasonable person approach would've been to buy a used Prius for ~$12k and run that for a decade.

For me they still refuse to make what I want and haven't made anything like it for 15 years so I buy used for my long range travel car. I still can't believe there isn't a gas car that can get 55mpg at 80mph yet, it's actually pretty embarrassing for the automotive industry on the whole.
1 gallon of gas contains 33.4 kWh of energy. It requires about 28 kW to maintain 80 mph in a 0.29 Cd vehicle. So 55 mpg would require the engine (plus drivetrain) to be 58% efficient at converting gasoline to power ((80 miles / 28 kWh) * 33.4 kWh * Eff). Direct injection engines have about a 35% efficiency (minus drivetrain losses) and there are some Formula 1 engines that can hit 50% efficiency (but those aren't designed to last longer than ~1,500 miles).

So its very unlikely we'll ever be able to achieve 55 mpg at 80 mph with advances in engine efficiency alone. There are some ultra aerodynamic cars that can probably do it (see VW XL1), but it requires severe compromises in other areas (practicality, cost, etc).

Pesky physics...

bryan995

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2021, 10:50:03 PM »
Zero.

I just bought a 2021 Model Y standard range. No regrets.

Locked in a 72 month loan at 1.5%. Could I have paid cash, sure. But why would I?
In this time of looming inflation and wildly appreciating markets, I am plenty happy to risk the banks dollars and continue to invest.

39,990 + 2000 wheels + 3000 3rd 7seater option + taxes - fed/state incentives.

We now pay 0.9c/kW at night, so to fill the entire 50kW pack, with 240 miles of range, costs ~$6.

It’s a great car, and will save plenty of money over the long run (electric>gas, lower maintenance).
Prices also keep rising on Tesla’s, at least $4000 in the past 3 months alone, and delivery dates for new vehicles continue to be delayed. Both of which add value to my vehicle.

As of last week, the only used MY SR  listings, are in the mid to high 60s! (eek!)
So technically I have made money and get to drive a brand new car everyday. 

But our income is high (4x higher) so do take that into consideration.   Our only other debt is a home, with 50% LTV.  With all of the recent inflation fears and with our available cash flow, I have been looking to ramp up some inflation-hedges (aka loans) :)
Either a cash-out refi on our primary (300k cash out, 30yr @ 2.9%), a 2nd vacation (airbnb) home, solar panels (10yr 0.99%),  car (6 yr @1.5%) etc. 

I cautiously fear that today may be a good time to be taking on low interest, fixed rate debt, only to have the 'value' of the loan be completely destroyed and absorbed by the banks in the coming years.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 09:45:10 AM by bryan995 »

Radagast

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2021, 11:40:36 PM »
Ok well I'll be a buzz killer. You are not in a position where it makes any sense to buy this car right now. Your net worth and income are about half of ours. We also have a notably higher savings rate than you, and I have been saying that we shouldn't get a new car until our NW has two commas. I'd say unless you either first save up to $500,000, or find a way to boost expenses or cut costs, you don't won't benefit enough from this car.

It is a terrible time to be buying a car right now. All sorts of assembly lines are idled because of chip and other part shortages. Used car prices are through the stratosphere. This is an amazing time to flex those mustachian muscles and delay the purchase a few years, like when you have $500k. If you are a follower of the environmental perspective look at it like this: an average car lasts 20 years, so delaying a car purchase 3 years would be a 15% decrease in the manufacture of cars if everyone did it.

When a few years have passed and you are a half millionaire, look at your options again. Better yet, keep your eye on the same car. All the reviews on the internet will still say exactly the same things about it, you can go back and read them to jazz yourself up. Is it still worth it? If so then it will be a far better deal in a few years. If not, then it would have been a bad choice anyhow.

You may not know the whole backstory in all of their cases, but other posters who have replied had a considerably higher ratio of need:resources than you do.

I bought a new car in 2013 and found this site 8 months later, by which time I had taken the car on all the bushiest rockiest backroads and taken 10k off the value even though it still was in perfect functional shape excluding paint finish and hubcaps. Then I moved to walking distance from work and my 10k mile/yr became 5k mi/yr. I still have it, a beat up 8 year old car with 60k miles that I will need to keep for 20+ years to use it up. I don't regret it exactly, I didn't know better. But knowing what I do now, I would have found a way to make it work with my previous vehicle or a beat up used one, and would probably have another $100k saved now.

Dicey

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2021, 12:33:29 AM »
For me they still refuse to make what I want and haven't made anything like it for 15 years so I buy used for my long range travel car. I still can't believe there isn't a gas car that can get 55mpg at 80mph yet, it's actually pretty embarrassing for the automotive industry on the whole.
1 gallon of gas contains 33.4 kWh of energy. It requires about 28 kW to maintain 80 mph in a 0.29 Cd vehicle. So 55 mpg would require the engine (plus drivetrain) to be 58% efficient at converting gasoline to power ((80 miles / 28 kWh) * 33.4 kWh * Eff). Direct injection engines have about a 35% efficiency (minus drivetrain losses) and there are some Formula 1 engines that can hit 50% efficiency (but those aren't designed to last longer than ~1,500 miles).

So its very unlikely we'll ever be able to achieve 55 mpg at 80 mph with advances in engine efficiency alone. There are some ultra aerodynamic cars that can probably do it (see VW XL1), but it requires severe compromises in other areas (practicality, cost, etc).

Pesky physics...
Thank you @JLee and @RWD.

DeniseNJ

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2021, 06:49:23 AM »
Bought a new Kia Sorento on a Saturday. By Monday morning I was cursing about it on my way to work. I think the whole thing ended up costing almost 30K. That was in 2014. I found this site a few years later and cursed louder. I used to leave it unlocked hoping it would get stolen. Then my kid wrecked it.  Happiest day of my life (increased insurance though).

Went out and bought a 2010 Pontiac Vibe for $3,300 cash in March.  LOVE IT.  LOVE LOVE LOVE.  Have been fixing things up here and there and learning more about cars. I love working on it, I love cleaning it, I love that it was less than 4K, even after I put new tires and struts on it. (Put the struts on myself.)

You might regret buying an expensive car, but you won't regret buying a cheap car--and even if you do, it was cheap. I could by another one every yr for ten years and still be ahead of the Kia. 

I'm nearing a million NW, and have a household income of $245K, for reference. I could go out tomorrow and buy a 50K car. But in ten yrs, I'll have a ten yr old car instead of 100K. 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 07:02:53 AM by DeniseNJ »

RainyDay

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2021, 08:07:38 AM »
You don't say whether you NEED a new car (like because your 20 year old current car finally went belly up), so it sounds like it's really a decision on how fast you want to make it to FI.  The new car purchase will delay your FI date.  If you're good with that and the new car will increase your happiness/life satisfaction/whatever by the amount of dollars you're going to spend, then it's worth it.

Ecky

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2021, 08:48:38 AM »

For me they still refuse to make what I want and haven't made anything like it for 15 years so I buy used for my long range travel car. I still can't believe there isn't a gas car that can get 55mpg at 80mph yet, it's actually pretty embarrassing for the automotive industry on the whole.
1 gallon of gas contains 33.4 kWh of energy. It requires about 28 kW to maintain 80 mph in a 0.29 Cd vehicle. So 55 mpg would require the engine (plus drivetrain) to be 58% efficient at converting gasoline to power ((80 miles / 28 kWh) * 33.4 kWh * Eff). Direct injection engines have about a 35% efficiency (minus drivetrain losses) and there are some Formula 1 engines that can hit 50% efficiency (but those aren't designed to last longer than ~1,500 miles).

So its very unlikely we'll ever be able to achieve 55 mpg at 80 mph with advances in engine efficiency alone. There are some ultra aerodynamic cars that can probably do it (see VW XL1), but it requires severe compromises in other areas (practicality, cost, etc).

Pesky physics...

I have two cars in my driveway that get around 55-60mpg @ 80mph. They're small cars though, and bordering on "ultra aerodynamic" at ~0.25 Cd. They're also both 20 years old and extremely lightweight.

Yes, physics is the limiting factor. You have to cut drag a bit and downsize from the current humongous vehicles to hit those economy numbers, but there are cars on the road that can do it.

GuitarStv

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2021, 09:03:36 AM »
I have zero regrets after buying a new Toyota Corolla in 2005.  It cost just under 13 grand out the door, and has continued to be a reliable vehicle to this day.

joe189man

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2021, 09:04:48 AM »
We bought a new Honda Odyessy a few years back, mid trim, i sometimes regret that model/trim, but not buying new, the next vehicle we get will be new also. This is the one thing i personally disagree with in the MMM community ethos. I prefer to buy a new car over a used car, as long as you can afford it and it fits with your long term goals. Our van will take our family around the country for the next 10+ years and maybe take the oldest to college if they still sell fuel in the 2030s. i bought a 2010 mazda 3 hatch new in 2011, left over for ~15% off msrp and 0% interest, plan to drive it till we hit some personal net worth goals then want to get a new electric truck

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2021, 09:15:13 AM »
I do not regret purchasing a brand new Ford Fusion Hybrid in 2011. Ten years later, it's going strong and I fully expect it to last another ten to fifteen years before it needs to be replaced. That's a good purchase.

RWD

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2021, 09:34:11 AM »
For me they still refuse to make what I want and haven't made anything like it for 15 years so I buy used for my long range travel car. I still can't believe there isn't a gas car that can get 55mpg at 80mph yet, it's actually pretty embarrassing for the automotive industry on the whole.
1 gallon of gas contains 33.4 kWh of energy. It requires about 28 kW to maintain 80 mph in a 0.29 Cd vehicle. So 55 mpg would require the engine (plus drivetrain) to be 58% efficient at converting gasoline to power ((80 miles / 28 kWh) * 33.4 kWh * Eff). Direct injection engines have about a 35% efficiency (minus drivetrain losses) and there are some Formula 1 engines that can hit 50% efficiency (but those aren't designed to last longer than ~1,500 miles).

So its very unlikely we'll ever be able to achieve 55 mpg at 80 mph with advances in engine efficiency alone. There are some ultra aerodynamic cars that can probably do it (see VW XL1), but it requires severe compromises in other areas (practicality, cost, etc).

Pesky physics...

I have two cars in my driveway that get around 55-60mpg @ 80mph. They're small cars though, and bordering on "ultra aerodynamic" at ~0.25 Cd. They're also both 20 years old and extremely lightweight.

Yes, physics is the limiting factor. You have to cut drag a bit and downsize from the current humongous vehicles to hit those economy numbers, but there are cars on the road that can do it.

Let me guess, you're talking about the original Honda Insight? That's a hybrid which is kind of cheating if you wanted to praise the efficiency of the gas engine. Lightweight, very aerodynamic (plus tiny cross sectional area), and skinny tires is definitely a formula that can achieve high efficiency. But like I said before, this requires severe compromises. We're talking about a tiny two-seater with a combined 77 horsepower and A/C being an optional feature.

windytrail

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2021, 10:06:09 AM »
Just here to counterbalance the pro-car hawks on these forums:

MMM's take on luxury living rooms on wheels -- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/22/curing-your-clown-like-car-habit/

Average cost per year of vehicle ownership rises 5% to $9,282 -- https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/average-annual-cost-of-new-vehicle-ownership

Car ownership associated with obesity -- https://academic.oup.com/inthealth/article/13/2/143/5862587

JLee

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2021, 10:10:02 AM »
Just here to counterbalance the pro-car hawks on these forums:

MMM's take on luxury living rooms on wheels -- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/22/curing-your-clown-like-car-habit/

Average cost per year of vehicle ownership rises 5% to $9,282 -- https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/average-annual-cost-of-new-vehicle-ownership

Car ownership associated with obesity -- https://academic.oup.com/inthealth/article/13/2/143/5862587

Meanwhile, he bought a new car.

bryan995

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2021, 10:43:14 AM »
Just here to counterbalance the pro-car hawks on these forums:

MMM's take on luxury living rooms on wheels -- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/22/curing-your-clown-like-car-habit/

Average cost per year of vehicle ownership rises 5% to $9,282 -- https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/average-annual-cost-of-new-vehicle-ownership

Car ownership associated with obesity -- https://academic.oup.com/inthealth/article/13/2/143/5862587

Meanwhile, he bought a new car.

Bingo.  Also take a look into the TESLA (M3/MY) depreciation curves.  They are beyond wild.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 10:51:49 AM by bryan995 »

Ecky

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2021, 11:00:45 AM »

Let me guess, you're talking about the original Honda Insight? That's a hybrid which is kind of cheating if you wanted to praise the efficiency of the gas engine. Lightweight, very aerodynamic (plus tiny cross sectional area), and skinny tires is definitely a formula that can achieve high efficiency. But like I said before, this requires severe compromises. We're talking about a tiny two-seater with a combined 77 horsepower and A/C being an optional feature.


One of the two was dropped off at my house as a non-runner, with a failed hybrid system. I removed all of the hybrid electronics and it retains effectively the same fuel economy, though with considerably slower acceleration.

Yes, it required some severe compromises, but we're also talking about a vehicle built with 20 year old technology, and the fuel economy is largely unaffected with the electric assist removed.

Laura33

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2021, 11:27:45 AM »
Do you actually need a new car?  Or do you just want BrightShinyPretty?

If you actually require a replacement vehicle, your choice isn't a horrible one.  The used car market is absolutely ridiculous right now, so new may be the more prudent long-term choice.

If you do not require a replacement vehicle, then yes, it is a horrible idea.  Part of that is because, as noted above, this is an absolutely terrible time to buy a car because of ongoing supply-chain issues.  But a larger part is because you are looking at the car to satisfy something other than a transportation need -- you're bored, or you want something that tells yourself or your friends that you're "successful," or you want to feel better about taking a paycut by reassuring yourself you can still have nice things, or or or or . . . .  The problem with that is that any purchase is just a stopgap -- it's a quick dopamine hit that makes you feel immediately better, but that underlying emotion is still there, so once that feeling fades, you'll need to do it again with something else -- and usually something more expensive still to get the same kind of emotional hit.  The more effective way to manage yourself and your spending is figuring out what the actual emotion is that is pushing you to buying the car -- what need is not being met -- and figure out a less-expensive way to meet that need.  Your emotions and needs are completely valid, and you should absolutely be doing what you need to to meet them.  But spending money on a Thing is a distraction, not a solution.

One thing to keep in mind is that you can have many things you want, but you cannot have everything.  No one can, no matter how much money they make.  You chose to buy a home -- yay for you!  You chose to take a lower-paying job for your own well-being.  That was a great choice to make!  But those choices mean that something else has to give -- specifically, either you decrease your lifestyle expectations, or you extend your time to FIRE.  So, yes, you can "afford" the car you're looking at, for sure.  But how many more months -- or years! -- will you need to work if you devote that much of your assets/income to a consumption item?  Is something that's going to be ShinyPretty for a few months or a year worth that extra time? 

Now, if you're a car guy, my answer might be different.  Most people have a "thing" that they are irrational about, and that's ok; the key is to figure out how to fit that totally irrational lust into your larger plan so it doesn't distract too much from your other goals.  Cars are my weakness (well, one of), and I have a StupidCar for which there is no possible legitimate justification.  For me, it's worth it; I saved for many years, met all my other priorities, and I absolutely enjoy the hell out of driving it every time I start it up and put the top down -- hell, even hearing the engine turn over gives me a little shiver of happiness.  But it's also a decision I made intentionally and planned for for a long time, with full knowledge of the tradeoffs involved.  I mean, I'd also love a stone patio with a big stone fireplace/pizza oven/grilling setup and a screened-in porch, you know?  I just don't want them as much as I wanted that car.  So I have an awesome car and a $250 Ooni pizza oven sitting on my deck on a $150 stainless-steel work table, next to my Home Depot fire pit and comfy chairs for making s'mores.  I have the specific thing I care about the most, and the other stuff I have "good enough." 

JLee

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2021, 11:36:46 AM »
Just here to counterbalance the pro-car hawks on these forums:

MMM's take on luxury living rooms on wheels -- https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/04/22/curing-your-clown-like-car-habit/

Average cost per year of vehicle ownership rises 5% to $9,282 -- https://www.aaa.com/autorepair/articles/average-annual-cost-of-new-vehicle-ownership

Car ownership associated with obesity -- https://academic.oup.com/inthealth/article/13/2/143/5862587

Meanwhile, he bought a new car.

Bingo.  Also take a look into the TESLA (M3/MY) depreciation curves.  They are beyond wild.

You're not kidding! I literally just sat down after a conversation with a coworker who just bought a lightly used 2020 Model 3 -- he paid $3k more than I paid for mine new last year (and didn't get the $5k state rebate that I did, so really $8k).

bryan995

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2021, 12:46:28 PM »
it is absurd.

We bought a model 3 LR RWD about 3-4 years ago for cash.  All in was close to 50k net.  We put almost 20k miles on it before we realized it was just too small.

Sold to an out of state buyer from AZ, with some sort of tax incentive to buy from folks in CA.  It sold for 47,000.

Over the ~2 years, we incurred  $0 in maintenance, and saved a ton on electric over gas.
3 years and 15k miles later, it cost of ~3,000 == 0.20c/mile or $83/mo.  Not bad! I'll take that any day!

Our current MY SR was bought for 45k all in, with a potentially (pending) retroactive 7500-10000 federal tax rebate.
Current used prices show >60k.

What is happening!?!?

tweezers

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2021, 01:53:55 PM »

For me they still refuse to make what I want and haven't made anything like it for 15 years so I buy used for my long range travel car. I still can't believe there isn't a gas car that can get 55mpg at 80mph yet, it's actually pretty embarrassing for the automotive industry on the whole.
1 gallon of gas contains 33.4 kWh of energy. It requires about 28 kW to maintain 80 mph in a 0.29 Cd vehicle. So 55 mpg would require the engine (plus drivetrain) to be 58% efficient at converting gasoline to power ((80 miles / 28 kWh) * 33.4 kWh * Eff). Direct injection engines have about a 35% efficiency (minus drivetrain losses) and there are some Formula 1 engines that can hit 50% efficiency (but those aren't designed to last longer than ~1,500 miles).

So its very unlikely we'll ever be able to achieve 55 mpg at 80 mph with advances in engine efficiency alone. There are some ultra aerodynamic cars that can probably do it (see VW XL1), but it requires severe compromises in other areas (practicality, cost, etc).

Pesky physics...

I have two cars in my driveway that get around 55-60mpg @ 80mph. They're small cars though, and bordering on "ultra aerodynamic" at ~0.25 Cd. They're also both 20 years old and extremely lightweight.

Yes, physics is the limiting factor. You have to cut drag a bit and downsize from the current humongous vehicles to hit those economy numbers, but there are cars on the road that can do it.

My 1993 Honda Civic hatchback (manual transmission) got 46-50 MPG on the highway.  I loved that car.  We sold it last year because the rear seats don't have headrests and my growing children could no longer sit in the backseat safely.  Someone else is loving the great mileage now.

RWD

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2021, 02:17:23 PM »
For me they still refuse to make what I want and haven't made anything like it for 15 years so I buy used for my long range travel car. I still can't believe there isn't a gas car that can get 55mpg at 80mph yet, it's actually pretty embarrassing for the automotive industry on the whole.
1 gallon of gas contains 33.4 kWh of energy. It requires about 28 kW to maintain 80 mph in a 0.29 Cd vehicle. So 55 mpg would require the engine (plus drivetrain) to be 58% efficient at converting gasoline to power ((80 miles / 28 kWh) * 33.4 kWh * Eff). Direct injection engines have about a 35% efficiency (minus drivetrain losses) and there are some Formula 1 engines that can hit 50% efficiency (but those aren't designed to last longer than ~1,500 miles).

So its very unlikely we'll ever be able to achieve 55 mpg at 80 mph with advances in engine efficiency alone. There are some ultra aerodynamic cars that can probably do it (see VW XL1), but it requires severe compromises in other areas (practicality, cost, etc).

Pesky physics...

I have two cars in my driveway that get around 55-60mpg @ 80mph. They're small cars though, and bordering on "ultra aerodynamic" at ~0.25 Cd. They're also both 20 years old and extremely lightweight.

Yes, physics is the limiting factor. You have to cut drag a bit and downsize from the current humongous vehicles to hit those economy numbers, but there are cars on the road that can do it.

My 1993 Honda Civic hatchback (manual transmission) got 46-50 MPG on the highway.  I loved that car.  We sold it last year because the rear seats don't have headrests and my growing children could no longer sit in the backseat safely.  Someone else is loving the great mileage now.

Probably not at 80 mph though. Was that the VX model? The Civic VX was really cool with deliberate weight reduction for fuel savings. I feel like we're finally getting a bit of a revival of that efficiency mindset with EVs as they have to maximize range due to battery size limitations.

desert_phoenix

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2021, 08:21:27 PM »
This has been some really great discussion, and I appreciate everyone weighing in from the different perspectives. 

A couple of updates, I actually entirely forgot one of my investment accounts, haha. My invested total is $420k, not $332k. I also gave my older investment numbers. If I don't get a new car, I will be able to invest ~$36,000 a year on that $98,000 gross pay and have around $1650 in take home pay every two weeks.

I also definitely do not need a new car, and I think I would 100% regret it if I did it.  I might not even need a car at all.

The long version that gives the background context of this is that I sold my car a few months ago when the market for used cars first went nuts. It was a deal so stupid, I could not say no. I had wanted to try the car free life out before, but only decided to make the jump when I was getting offered almost $5,000 more for my (paid off) car than what I'd have gotten for it last year.

Living car free was a bit inconvenient but not too hard through spring. But after summer arrived in full force (I live in a part of the country that is extremely humid), I have started to regret it, haha.

I walk about a mile to a bus stop that takes me to within about 3 blocks of my workplace. I walk a bit further than a mile to either of my nearest grocery stores. This is where the trouble begins.  It has been too damn hot to safely get groceries home if they were refrigerated or frozen!  I guess maybe what I really needed to do was start a thread about what kind of bicycle to get that needs to go 5 miles or less round trip and that I can safely transport groceries on. I suppose I could go pretty nuts bike wise and still be infinitely ahead of where I'd be with even a reasonably priced older car...Or get advice on well insulated bags for grocery shopping, haha.

Somewhat related, a lot of bus lines in my city shut down due to covid, and one that picks up 150 feet from my house and drops off immediately next to my work bus starts running again on July 19th. So at least the walk to work will be less miserable, and that one also separately drops off within like a two minute walk of a couple of grocery stores. 

TL;DR: I need to resolve getting groceries home so I can cook healthy meals and save money since I have been doing more delivery and hot prepared meals at the grocery stores since selling my car! The other day, when I posted, it was just a particularly hot day and I was feeling a bit regretful at not having my car since it had been a miserable walk home from the library.

It seems plausible I could get by without a car entirely, and I feel like I should give it like 6 months past the bus lines coming back on to assess if the trade off inconveniences are worth it for me.

Thanks to everyone for helping me think through my thoughts a bit more!

iris lily

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2021, 08:26:27 PM »
I’m not sure on the hair shirt we wear as Mustashians is allowed to be relaxed? Ha ha kidding.

In 2009 we bought not one but two brand new vehicles, two of them! One factor was at the time the Cash for Clunkers program had eliminated many used cars. We were also at the height of our working life and were  super busy just working for The Man and living our life otherwise, and we didn’t want to spend time searching for used cars when the availability was so limited.

Today we’re still driving both of them and each has  under 100,000 miles
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 10:41:15 AM by iris lily »

Malcat

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2021, 08:31:48 PM »
What about grocery delivery? Taking a car service home from the grocery store?

You likely have many options for staying car free and getting your groceries home in a reasonable way, tons of people do.

It doesn't sound like you will drive much period, which makes buying a brand new car kind of useless, because unless you drive enough, you simply can't come out ahead of a used car in most cases.

As I said before, your shiny new car becomes a run of the mill used car very quickly. If you aren't driving much, then if you want fancy, you could buy a much, much nicer car with high mileage and probably still spend less.

Dicey

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2021, 08:43:26 PM »
What about grocery delivery? Taking a car service home from the grocery store?

You likely have many options for staying car free and getting your groceries home in a reasonable way, tons of people do.

It doesn't sound like you will drive much period, which makes buying a brand new car kind of useless, because unless you drive enough, you simply can't come out ahead of a used car in most cases.

As I said before, your shiny new car becomes a run of the mill used car very quickly. If you aren't driving much, then if you want fancy, you could buy a much, much nicer car with high mileage and probably still spend less.
Wait! My 2014 is still my shiny new car! I love it! Our other vehicles are 2012, 2004, and 2002. All are in great shape and going strong.

jac941

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2021, 09:12:15 PM »
What about grocery delivery? Taking a car service home from the grocery store?

You likely have many options for staying car free and getting your groceries home in a reasonable way, tons of people do.

This. You could have ALL of your groceries delivered or take a car service home every time you grocery shop and you would still come out way ahead of owing a car. Other options are car share membership or a bike. Allowing yourself this type of small “luxury” will make living car free much more sustainable.

Monerexia

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car? **OP update post #34**
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2021, 09:23:28 PM »
Whenever I think of a purchase I go into a sucker being-space, like a moon-faced mallard walking around a car lot with a target on my forehead haha. But I probably should buy a new toilet since have been reaching into tank for three years :)

AccidentialMustache

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2021, 10:06:02 PM »
I also definitely do not need a new car, and I think I would 100% regret it if I did it.  I might not even need a car at all.

The long version that gives the background context of this is that I sold my car a few months ago when the market for used cars first went nuts. It was a deal so stupid, I could not say no. I had wanted to try the car free life out before, but only decided to make the jump when I was getting offered almost $5,000 more for my (paid off) car than what I'd have gotten for it last year.

Living car free was a bit inconvenient but not too hard through spring. But after summer arrived in full force (I live in a part of the country that is extremely humid), I have started to regret it, haha.

I walk about a mile to a bus stop that takes me to within about 3 blocks of my workplace. I walk a bit further than a mile to either of my nearest grocery stores. This is where the trouble begins.  It has been too damn hot to safely get groceries home if they were refrigerated or frozen!  I guess maybe what I really needed to do was start a thread about what kind of bicycle to get that needs to go 5 miles or less round trip and that I can safely transport groceries on. I suppose I could go pretty nuts bike wise and still be infinitely ahead of where I'd be with even a reasonably priced older car...Or get advice on well insulated bags for grocery shopping, haha.

Somewhat related, a lot of bus lines in my city shut down due to covid, and one that picks up 150 feet from my house and drops off immediately next to my work bus starts running again on July 19th. So at least the walk to work will be less miserable, and that one also separately drops off within like a two minute walk of a couple of grocery stores. 

TL;DR: I need to resolve getting groceries home so I can cook healthy meals and save money since I have been doing more delivery and hot prepared meals at the grocery stores since selling my car! The other day, when I posted, it was just a particularly hot day and I was feeling a bit regretful at not having my car since it had been a miserable walk home from the library.

It seems plausible I could get by without a car entirely, and I feel like I should give it like 6 months past the bus lines coming back on to assess if the trade off inconveniences are worth it for me.

Thanks to everyone for helping me think through my thoughts a bit more!

So we used to live near a highly walkable grocery store (0.3 mi). We are currently 0.8 mi from another (tends to get biked not walked). We have a cargo bike (RadWagon) with decent but not amazing panniers. We're in the midwest, so we get heat, hot sun, and humidity aplenty during the summer.

For a quick trip to get milk, the bike is fine, even in the summer, at either store. It isn't faster than the car because of the time to lock it, but it is comparable. We did find walking in the summer, the milk would spoil a day or two sooner than we'd expect it to otherwise. I've also found ice cream likes to melt on the way home from the 0.8 mi without an insulated bag/ice pack.

A bigger problem is space. By the time we go to the store, we usually need to buy more than fits in the panniers. Also, those "large and good-sale" items like Kleenex or TP when you find a good sale? Yeah, it is a sad day.

If you want to do it, take ice packs (16 oz pop bottles 3/4ths full of water and frozen work great) and get an insulated bag or two. You will at least want a cargo rack and panniers on the bike. A cargo bike does potentially offer more storage (although my panniers are the same as I used on my regular bike, pre-cargo-bike, but I don't kick them as much when they are full now since the bike is bigger).

All that said... for the use case you listed, have you considered a well-used nissan leaf? Or any of the other early electrics with a kinda low range? You already aren't using a car to commute massive distances, so the low range isn't a big deal, and low range means they're probably still cheap and not being hammered by the used car shenanigans right now.

Another possibly interesting idea you could explore would be trying to find something like an https://organictransit.com/ ELF, used. You keep the bike aspect. The problem is they cost more than a used leaf, despite using 90% less materials.

Radagast

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car? **OP update post #34**
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2021, 10:22:02 PM »
OK, good job, you are more badass than I gave you credit for :D Still, I'd encourage you to take your experiment all the way: one whole year of carlessness. No point selling high, and buying just as high! Those last year models will almost certainly be more affordable in March 2022 if you still want them.

When I was walking to work and the store I used Uber for those days the weather was unreliable. For a while I was churning a credit card that had a side perk of $20 per month Uber credit. You might take Uber once of twice a week when weather is at its worst. Also, for some reason money spent on Uber is highly noticeable, in a way money spent on a car really isn't.

Malcat

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2021, 06:23:33 AM »
What about grocery delivery? Taking a car service home from the grocery store?

You likely have many options for staying car free and getting your groceries home in a reasonable way, tons of people do.

It doesn't sound like you will drive much period, which makes buying a brand new car kind of useless, because unless you drive enough, you simply can't come out ahead of a used car in most cases.

As I said before, your shiny new car becomes a run of the mill used car very quickly. If you aren't driving much, then if you want fancy, you could buy a much, much nicer car with high mileage and probably still spend less.
Wait! My 2014 is still my shiny new car! I love it! Our other vehicles are 2012, 2004, and 2002. All are in great shape and going strong.

Yeah, but if you were to buy it now, it would be a used car.

I've only bought used cars and loved all of them. My point is that the concept of buying new doesn't permanently buy a new car. It becomes a used car.

Dicey

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2021, 03:47:47 PM »
What about grocery delivery? Taking a car service home from the grocery store?

You likely have many options for staying car free and getting your groceries home in a reasonable way, tons of people do.

It doesn't sound like you will drive much period, which makes buying a brand new car kind of useless, because unless you drive enough, you simply can't come out ahead of a used car in most cases.

As I said before, your shiny new car becomes a run of the mill used car very quickly. If you aren't driving much, then if you want fancy, you could buy a much, much nicer car with high mileage and probably still spend less.
Wait! My 2014 is still my shiny new car! I love it! Our other vehicles are 2012, 2004, and 2002. All are in great shape and going strong.

Yeah, but if you were to buy it now, it would be a used car.

I've only bought used cars and loved all of them. My point is that the concept of buying new doesn't permanently buy a new car. It becomes a used car.
Hey Mal, it's me, Dicey. Of course we bought the 2014 used! The RV (2012) was also used. The other two were bought new. DH does all the maintenance and they all have lots of good miles left in them.

Actually, I've never purchased a brand new car. I used to drive a company car, so I've had the new car experience a number of times, but always on someone else's dime. Which reminds me that I have purchased my old company car for myself, a friend or a family member at least four times. If you know the car's history, a used fleet vehicle can be a screaming deal.

Malcat

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2021, 08:23:51 PM »
What about grocery delivery? Taking a car service home from the grocery store?

You likely have many options for staying car free and getting your groceries home in a reasonable way, tons of people do.

It doesn't sound like you will drive much period, which makes buying a brand new car kind of useless, because unless you drive enough, you simply can't come out ahead of a used car in most cases.

As I said before, your shiny new car becomes a run of the mill used car very quickly. If you aren't driving much, then if you want fancy, you could buy a much, much nicer car with high mileage and probably still spend less.
Wait! My 2014 is still my shiny new car! I love it! Our other vehicles are 2012, 2004, and 2002. All are in great shape and going strong.

Yeah, but if you were to buy it now, it would be a used car.

I've only bought used cars and loved all of them. My point is that the concept of buying new doesn't permanently buy a new car. It becomes a used car.
Hey Mal, it's me, Dicey. Of course we bought the 2014 used! The RV (2012) was also used. The other two were bought new. DH does all the maintenance and they all have lots of good miles left in them.

Actually, I've never purchased a brand new car. I used to drive a company car, so I've had the new car experience a number of times, but always on someone else's dime. Which reminds me that I have purchased my old company car for myself, a friend or a family member at least four times. If you know the car's history, a used fleet vehicle can be a screaming deal.

Lol, I thought the idea of you buying a new car was weird.

Dicey

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2021, 11:44:28 PM »
What about grocery delivery? Taking a car service home from the grocery store?

You likely have many options for staying car free and getting your groceries home in a reasonable way, tons of people do.

It doesn't sound like you will drive much period, which makes buying a brand new car kind of useless, because unless you drive enough, you simply can't come out ahead of a used car in most cases.

As I said before, your shiny new car becomes a run of the mill used car very quickly. If you aren't driving much, then if you want fancy, you could buy a much, much nicer car with high mileage and probably still spend less.
Wait! My 2014 is still my shiny new car! I love it! Our other vehicles are 2012, 2004, and 2002. All are in great shape and going strong.

Yeah, but if you were to buy it now, it would be a used car.

I've only bought used cars and loved all of them. My point is that the concept of buying new doesn't permanently buy a new car. It becomes a used car.
Hey Mal, it's me, Dicey. Of course we bought the 2014 used! The RV (2012) was also used. The other two were bought new. DH does all the maintenance and they all have lots of good miles left in them.

Actually, I've never purchased a brand new car. I used to drive a company car, so I've had the new car experience a number of times, but always on someone else's dime. Which reminds me that I have purchased my old company car for myself, a friend or a family member at least four times. If you know the car's history, a used fleet vehicle can be a screaming deal.

Lol, I thought the idea of you buying a new car was weird.
One further clarification: the two new (now oldest) cars were purchased by DH, long before he was my DH. And for anyone who's counting (and you should be), we have three adult drivers in our household.

Kimm

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car? **OP update post #34**p
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2021, 06:38:08 PM »
I just bought a RAV4 prime plugin hybrid. I have a 20 year old Subaru and traded in a 11 year old Subaru. Both bought new. I love this car!! I too could have paid cash but went with a good down payment and the trade in..2% interest rate. The trade in needed about $3,000 (head gasket, brakes and timing belt) of work so I somehow in my mind justified it with no maintenance for a few years. I keep cars for a good long while. I think everyone needs to make their own justification but sometimes a reality check, if you can't pay cash, might want to rethink it.

Car Jack

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car? **OP update post #34**
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2021, 08:26:36 AM »
desert_phoenix:  This is not an unreasonable purchase.  To put this in perspective, I'm going to use 2 examples in my own family.

Oldest son has been working for a year since college graduation.  He takes home about $80k including bonuses and such.  Commute is 50 miles one way.  He maxes his 401k and Roth.  He owns (well, the bank does) 2 cars.  A 2004 Honda S2000 bought for $21,800 and a 2020 Subaru STi bought for $35,000.  He has low rate loans on both and pays monthly for both plus insurance.  His student loans (about $25k) are still frozen, but will likely have to start being paid sometime in the next year.  He can easily afford them.  He lives at home so gas, computer stuff and energy drinks are his main expenses besides those payments.  He even brown bags lunch, so there's not much to spend money on.  I don't see him as atypical.  He's got around $30k saved for retirement in the 401k plus the Roth.

I bring home something like $200k with bonuses and ESPP and RSUs and such.  I have no debt and own my home.  Have about $3.4M in liquid investment/retirement accounts combined with DW who brings in about $80k a year.  I drive a 19 Crosstrek that I paid $22k for.  DW drives a 17 Legacy Limited that we picked up a year old in 18 for $22k also.

So there's what I'd call an average person and an admitted Boglehead.  You're in the middle, in my opinion and there's absolutely nothing wrong or abnormal with your car choice.  If you were asking about a 15 year old Lamborghini Gallardo with a gated manual transmission, I'd say that you're batting above your grade and should rethink the car choice.  But not everyone needs to drive a 10 year old, Beige used Camry with 200k miles or a new Tesla Model 3 for $50k.  (sort of what Bogleheads seem to require) 


Malcat

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car? **OP update post #34**
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2021, 08:43:52 AM »
desert_phoenix:  This is not an unreasonable purchase.  To put this in perspective, I'm going to use 2 examples in my own family.

Oldest son has been working for a year since college graduation.  He takes home about $80k including bonuses and such.  Commute is 50 miles one way.  He maxes his 401k and Roth.  He owns (well, the bank does) 2 cars.  A 2004 Honda S2000 bought for $21,800 and a 2020 Subaru STi bought for $35,000.  He has low rate loans on both and pays monthly for both plus insurance.  His student loans (about $25k) are still frozen, but will likely have to start being paid sometime in the next year.  He can easily afford them.  He lives at home so gas, computer stuff and energy drinks are his main expenses besides those payments.  He even brown bags lunch, so there's not much to spend money on.  I don't see him as atypical.  He's got around $30k saved for retirement in the 401k plus the Roth.

I bring home something like $200k with bonuses and ESPP and RSUs and such.  I have no debt and own my home.  Have about $3.4M in liquid investment/retirement accounts combined with DW who brings in about $80k a year.  I drive a 19 Crosstrek that I paid $22k for.  DW drives a 17 Legacy Limited that we picked up a year old in 18 for $22k also.

So there's what I'd call an average person and an admitted Boglehead.  You're in the middle, in my opinion and there's absolutely nothing wrong or abnormal with your car choice.  If you were asking about a 15 year old Lamborghini Gallardo with a gated manual transmission, I'd say that you're batting above your grade and should rethink the car choice.  But not everyone needs to drive a 10 year old, Beige used Camry with 200k miles or a new Tesla Model 3 for $50k.  (sort of what Bogleheads seem to require)

???

I don't think anyone said the car itself is an unreasonable purchase, and no one insisted that OP buy a very old used car.

Most of us advised that OP assess their *own* situation and make the decision that best fits their priorities. What we advocated against was buying a new car for the sake of scratching an itch of buying something new and shiny, and instead focusing on utility and what is actually needed.

It's exactly this "oh you can afford it, it's reasonable" thinking that leads to people mindlessly spending thousands and thousands of dollars that they don't actually need to in order to be happy.

OP has said they don't even really need a car!
And you're casually endorsing that someone spend 25K (+insurance and maintenance) on buying something they don't even need???

If they don't need it, then it's a pure luxury item, and no different than buying a 25K+ purse or watch, except much worse for the environment.

If this thread was packed to the rafters with face punches, then I could understand someone weighing in with "whoa, it's not like OP is trying to buy a Maserati, this isn't an unreasonable thing to buy", but it hasn't been.

Sorry to pick on you, I'm just kind of gobsmacked by the amount of posts I see where people push back against supposed mustachian ideals that aren't even a reality here.

OP is one of the very, very, very few people here who is actually living without a car. I think that should be celebrated.

iris lily

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Re: How Much Regret with Buying a New Car?
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2021, 08:49:59 AM »
I have higher household income and networth than you, for reference.

In June 2020 my 16 year old car died. It was peak covid and my husband was working 7 days a week making N95's so there was no option for me to not have a car.

I basically went and bought a new car even though I knew it wasn't the best long term choice because I could not even deal with any of the alternatives.

Now one year later it is fine or whatever but I don't love the car. It certainly wasn't a financially terrible decision but otoh the car is meh. For reference I replaced a 2003 civic with a 2019 insight that cost about 19k.

In summary my advice is to take your time and really think about why you are doing it and how that will feel 5 years from now. I fully acknowledged at the time I was doing it out of convenience/to minimize the chances of dying of covid. That doesn't really stand the test of time and now I'm less than thrilled about the car. But I'd probably still do the same thing if the circumstances repeated themselves.
Do we have to love our cars? I am meh about the new car I bought in 2009, it is just reliable transportation.

Now I do have a Love It car, but I didn’t buy that until 2019. It is a fun convertible and I love it. It is not reliable transportation.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 09:05:30 AM by iris lily »