Author Topic: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?  (Read 11632 times)

DougStache

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How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« on: May 29, 2013, 09:09:23 PM »
Hey all!

After reading The True Cost of Commuting a few weeks ago, I started taking public transit to work ($1.50/day instead of $7.00/day).  While everyone else is fighting rush hour traffic, I get to read a book for either relaxation, personal improvement, or both.  I love it!  Inevitably coworkers caught on as we left the office and I turned towards the bus stop instead of the parking garage, and the general reaction was an implied "You're taking the bus? Like a poor person?" 

Rather than explain my choice as a financial decision, I prefer to explain the non-financial aspects of my recent lifestyle changes.  For example:

  • Taking the bus: I get to read instead of fight traffic.
  • Biking for errands: The weather is beautiful, I enjoy it, and it works additional exercise into my routine.
  • Eating out less: The food my fiance and I cook tastes better anyways!

What are some life style changes you have made that have had non-financial benefits?  If others ask, do you explain the financial aspect, the non-financial aspect, or both?

icefr

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2013, 11:32:41 PM »
I walk to work. It's not about the money. I like the exercise and it's relaxing.

Bringing my lunch isn't about the money. It's about portion control.

Going out to dinner infrequently isn't about the money. It's that I find cooking at home more relaxing. Also, I can read the internet / watch TV while cooking. Or talk to people.

Meal planning isn't about the money. It makes the week easier. I always decline dinner invitations on Sunday night so that I can cook to have leftovers to eat between work and climbing on Monday nights. That makes total sense to my friends who also optimize things. I had an awesome half hour conversation with a friend about optimizing our lives once. We optimize different things, but he still understand the art of optimizing!

I like library books because the probability of me reading something again is pretty low.

I don't pay for data on my cell phone because I don't need to check my email while I'm hanging out with friends or commuting.

I'm not shopping for new clothes much lately because I already have lots! (I can, uh, go 4-5 weeks without running out of tops depending on the weather. Oops.)

I don't drive to work because I hate driving. It's so stressful.

nktokyo

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 12:25:08 AM »
It doesn't matter how you dress it up, before you become FI you'll be unconventional and "not playing the game", after you hit FI you'll be "lucky".

I just told people I was trying to pay for rental properties faster. It worked most of the time.

N

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2013, 12:55:34 AM »
you dont have to respond to implications.
you dont even have to respond to actual words said.

its none of their business! its rude for them to  proffer unsolicited opinions, so ignore it.
do you really care what they think? enough to not do it?

you could reply jovially, or sarcastically, or not at all.

DougStache

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2013, 05:44:54 AM »
It doesn't matter how you dress it up, before you become FI you'll be unconventional and "not playing the game", after you hit FI you'll be "lucky".
you dont have to respond to implications.
you dont even have to respond to actual words said.

its none of their business! its rude for them to  proffer unsolicited opinions, so ignore it.
do you really care what they think? enough to not do it?

you could reply jovially, or sarcastically, or not at all.

I think I accidentally implied a hateful work environment, when it's really quite amiable.  I am not looking to justify myself to people I dislike or don't know, but looking for ways to explain my decisions to people I'm not close enough to discuss financials with.

I'm also indirectly looking for other low hanging fruit: places I could save money, but also improve my lifestyle.  However, I'm getting convinced 90% of the impact is: drive less, cook your own damn food, and don't impulse buy.

Villanelle

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2013, 06:20:23 AM »
It depends on the undertones I get from the conversation. If it feels snarky, then I'd mostly just ignore.  If it feels like the person is genuinely interested or truly perplexed, then I might take a moment to briefly describe why I made the choice.  And I'd certainly include the financial benefits, as well as any other.  I'd not get bogged down on details, but "the bus is less than half the cost of driving and yet I like it more because I can read and relax during that time, instead of focusing on traffic", covers the basics.  If they bring up a specific concern ("Isn't public transportation scary?") then I'd address that. "I've found that most people just keep to themselves and I've never felt uncomfortable or unsafe."

nktokyo

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2013, 06:53:30 AM »
Actually I was speaking from my own experience :-)

MorningCoffee

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2013, 07:00:28 AM »
It doesn't matter how you dress it up, before you become FI you'll be unconventional and "not playing the game", after you hit FI you'll be "lucky".

I hate it when I hear that "you're so lucky", which is often followed by "but my situation is so different", "you don't understand what it's like" and of course "I couldn't possibly do that!".

I now try and avoid conversations that relate to finances and when asked, I keep it honest, but short.
And bite my tongue.


rubybeth

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2013, 08:24:42 AM »
Well, if anyone asks, I usually explain that I'd rather save the money from one thing in order to do a something else. People usually get that there are trade-offs with every choice you make. I'm part of a jewelry forum (which is where I actually first heard about MMM), and newbies are always asking "how can you afford to spend money on jewelry?" and the response from those who have been around for a while and who have pretty amazing collections is usually a variation of... it's my only indulgence, I barely go out to eat, never get my hair done professionally, drink coffee/tea at home, don't get any other gifts during the year, don't do manicures, no designer clothes, an older car that's paid for, modest house, etc. Mustachians just take some of this a few steps farther, which isn't all that difficult, but people tend to think in the short term "I want it now" kind of way and don't think about the long-term impact of that manicure or $80 pair of jeans.

No Name Guy

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2013, 11:49:40 AM »

I take those types of comments as an opportunity to set someone straight: I'm not any luckier than most people, I just make sacrifices conscious choices which I will detail if a person is open to hearing about them.

Most people, though, aren't able to wrap their heads around sacrifice conscious decision making; they're too (self?)absorbed in instant gratification to realize that resources are finite and must be carefully applied against wants and needs.

Tweaked it for you.  ;-)

Keylime FI

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2013, 12:53:25 PM »
I think Villanelle has it right -- it depends on the tone of the question/comment. My basic reply would most likely be something like "taking public transport allows me time to read" or "respond to emails" "and relax". No need to explain much further.

I recently bought a Prius C -- which I love and am selling the fancypants BMW. I get many questions with a tint of "money problems??" in them. No money problems at all just a desire to quit wasting resources -- gas, money, etc.

Happy to post here.

oldtoyota

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2013, 03:17:03 PM »

I don't pay for data on my cell phone because I don't need to check my email while I'm hanging out with friends or commuting.


What plan do you have that lets you avoid paying for data? I found cheaper plans than what I have now. However, the ones I've seen lump data into the total cost. There is not an option to remove it. I could get by without it by using home and work wifi.


oldtoyota

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2013, 03:19:14 PM »
It doesn't matter how you dress it up, before you become FI you'll be unconventional and "not playing the game", after you hit FI you'll be "lucky".

I hate it when I hear that "you're so lucky", which is often followed by "but my situation is so different", "you don't understand what it's like" and of course "I couldn't possibly do that!".

I now try and avoid conversations that relate to finances and when asked, I keep it honest, but short.
And bite my tongue.

I do the same. I wish I had people I could talk to about finances. Actually, I have one person. She inherited enough to be FI and she is also really cool, so I either talk to her or use message boards like these.

In my experience, people find what I am doing a tiny bit threatening to their thinking so I find it's better to keep everything quiet.


icefr

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2013, 07:20:04 PM »

I don't pay for data on my cell phone because I don't need to check my email while I'm hanging out with friends or commuting.


What plan do you have that lets you avoid paying for data? I found cheaper plans than what I have now. However, the ones I've seen lump data into the total cost. There is not an option to remove it. I could get by without it by using home and work wifi.

I'm with Ting. They're a Sprint MVNO. My bill is usually around $6 base, $3 for 100 minutes, $5 for 1000 texts, and $0 for data or $3 for 100 MB depending on the month.

DougStache

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2013, 07:48:31 PM »
I do the same. I wish I had people I could talk to about finances. Actually, I have one person. She inherited enough to be FI and she is also really cool, so I either talk to her or use message boards like these.

In my experience, people find what I am doing a tiny bit threatening to their thinking so I find it's better to keep everything quiet.
I'm with you, definitely wish I had people to talk finances with face to face.  Especially around coworkers, I find it best to keep FI quiet lest they figure out I'm plotting my freedom; for all they know I'm trying to save money for a house.  Most of my friends are die hard consumers that know they should be smarter with money, but "oooo, shiny!"  That's why I started hanging around here :)

ny.er

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2013, 09:12:34 PM »
I got the same reaction when I started walking to work in April (are you crazy?? poor??) One person asked rather sarcastically "are you trying to save on gas?" I don't like talking about money at work. My husband retired early, not by choice, and before we were FI, and I can't/don't want to compete with my co workers silly spending.
About walking, I say "it's a nice day, it's nice to be outside; or something about wanting to get rid of weight gained over the winter, or about getting in shape. Actually, all these things are true, I also see my town from an entirely different perspective, AND I don't have to sit in traffic! I quit my daily wine habit in April too; at work I say "it was making me fat and broke," which is also true. I'm the only one in my (small) office w/o a smart phone-I don't need it, and I say so if asked.
   I've been reading MMM since Feb, and this is my first comment (!). After my husband's layoff/turned ER, 4 years ago (at 50), my hubby and I had been both panic stricken and sulky, but with the help of this blog, and after running the numbers, we are now incredibly PROUD that we've been able to manage without his FT job. I'm okay with working 'til whenever since I got to stay home with my 3 kids until they were in HS :) Hubby contributes some income from his hobby; and savings and investments fill the gaps until we can tap into retirement funds.

dcheesi

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2013, 05:44:50 AM »
Back when I was in walking distance to work, I regularly had co-workers stop and offer to give me a lift. They just assumed that my car broke down or something. Of course part of that was my fault for not making walking a more regular thing (I was young and un-mustachian back then).

Rollin

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2013, 06:40:47 AM »
Sometimes I spend more energy telling people that I want to walk and don't need a ride than I spend on the walk (to complete an errand).

I use 4 different modes of travel to get to work each day (5 once, and that was walking when I lived 4.5 miles from work, but I now live 7+ miles away).  They include (average/generally, so they don't add up): auto (2 of 5 days), motorcycle (1 of 5), bicycle (2 of 5), and bus (1 of 5).

I live in an area that bus riding is considered something that poor people do (or you have a DUI).  Riding a bike to work is also not done by 99.9%, even though we have great year-round weather and a perfect north-south trail (working on the east-west).
 
I simply do not explain to people what I do.  I have so many reasons for what I do that if I did start to explain much would be lost.  Besides, when you explain that just gives people more information to use in their judgement of what you are doing.  They should be the ones who are questioned and judged (that might be harsh, but often that is what I think).

I applaud you for breaking from the herd (yes, that may be a judgement as well, but at least it is supportive).  Just do what YOU think is right, enjoy YOUR journey.  I'll bet you smile most of the time as well!!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 07:41:30 PM by Rollin »

Rollin

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2013, 06:42:55 AM »
icefr:

Well-done.  I like what you wrote.

I walk to work. It's not about the money. I like the exercise and it's relaxing.

Bringing my lunch isn't about the money. It's about portion control.

Going out to dinner infrequently isn't about the money. It's that I find cooking at home more relaxing. Also, I can read the internet / watch TV while cooking. Or talk to people.

Meal planning isn't about the money. It makes the week easier. I always decline dinner invitations on Sunday night so that I can cook to have leftovers to eat between work and climbing on Monday nights. That makes total sense to my friends who also optimize things. I had an awesome half hour conversation with a friend about optimizing our lives once. We optimize different things, but he still understand the art of optimizing!

I like library books because the probability of me reading something again is pretty low.

I don't pay for data on my cell phone because I don't need to check my email while I'm hanging out with friends or commuting.

I'm not shopping for new clothes much lately because I already have lots! (I can, uh, go 4-5 weeks without running out of tops depending on the weather. Oops.)

I don't drive to work because I hate driving. It's so stressful.

Rollin

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2013, 06:53:01 AM »
Well, if anyone asks, I usually explain that I'd rather save the money from one thing in order to do a something else. People usually get that there are trade-offs with every choice you make. I'm part of a jewelry forum (which is where I actually first heard about MMM), and newbies are always asking "how can you afford to spend money on jewelry?" and the response from those who have been around for a while and who have pretty amazing collections is usually a variation of... it's my only indulgence, I barely go out to eat, never get my hair done professionally, drink coffee/tea at home, don't get any other gifts during the year, don't do manicures, no designer clothes, an older car that's paid for, modest house, etc. Mustachians just take some of this a few steps farther, which isn't all that difficult, but people tend to think in the short term "I want it now" kind of way and don't think about the long-term impact of that manicure or $80 pair of jeans.

"...and I want it all."

chucklesmcgee

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2013, 10:24:01 AM »
It doesn't matter how you dress it up, before you become FI you'll be unconventional and "not playing the game", after you hit FI you'll be "lucky".

Eh, there are ways to explain your choices such that they're seen as being less hostile and judgmental of the listener's lifestyle. "Because of my particular situationI like doing this thing differently" labels you as different but is much nicer compared to the (hyperbolic) "I do this because the alternative (which you happen to do) is objectively costly and dumb/unhealthy/stress-inducing/chains you to your desk for 10 years". In one you present your own particular values, in the other you try to make a value judgement suggesting other's value system are wrong.

hybrid

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2013, 12:06:29 PM »
I'm blessed, I have several friends I can talk about home economics with in detail, and of course there are some that I cannot or choose not to.  I'm a guy and unless I have it wrong the folks in this thread who have more difficulty doing this are moer often than not women.  It may just be a cultural thing, but in general I've found that men are much more comfortable crunching numbers with each other than women.  Does that sound about right or am I way off the mark?

MorningCoffee

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2013, 12:16:30 PM »
I'm blessed, I have several friends I can talk about home economics with in detail, and of course there are some that I cannot or choose not to.  I'm a guy and unless I have it wrong the folks in this thread who have more difficulty doing this are moer often than not women.  It may just be a cultural thing, but in general I've found that men are much more comfortable crunching numbers with each other than women.  Does that sound about right or am I way off the mark?

I have no problem crunching numbers with people, man or woman (and I'm a woman). If someone wants to talk finance or asks me for help, I'm happy to do so. (Probably a little too much :) I'm happy to help someone who wants to help themselves.

I have trouble hearing whining and excuses and generally don't want to walk around face-punching people. It doesn't accomplish anything and doesn't make me very popular at parties.

MakingSenseofCents

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2013, 02:58:08 AM »
I don't live Mustachian 100%, but I do certain things which a lot of people question. Some think I'm crazy and think that we are poor, but once we explain everything they realize that we are geniuses :)

TrulyStashin

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2013, 10:56:20 AM »
How about this response ANYTIME non-Mustachians are perplexed:

"Constant optimization."  [big smile]

That's it.  Leave 'em scratching their head.

catmustache

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2013, 12:21:49 PM »
I think it's interesting that people, in general, are so unwilling to talk about money. Whenever I've talked to people about choices to bring my own lunch or take public transportation, I've phrased it as my way to save money to pay off debt and they've seemed interested. Granted, I usually talk to younger people who have similar debts to mine, so that may impact the response.

jiggy-z

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2013, 02:37:15 PM »
There are different kinds of talk:
For example, you are going to need to talk to your spouse much differently than you talk to others, because lets face it, you won't get very far with this way of life without them.  Believe me, I know.

For others, they need to be ready to hear your spiel, the whole thing, unless you are just having some kind of water cooler talk.

I liken it to diet.  I have been doing the paleo thing for 10 months, I have lost 30 lbs, under 10% body fat, I am 46 and can do things I couldn't do in my 20s. The list of goodness goes on and on.
Lots of my friends/associates ask me what I did.  I tell them its the easiest thing in the world and costs nothing.  Yet, when they find out that they can't eat pasta, bread, junk food, sodas, etc. they are immediately put off-ie not ready, despite the results standing right there in front of them.

I consider going full "stach" much more difficult than going paleo (also the body of proof is not standing there in front of them either), so therein the difficulty lies. Also, something like diet is completely within your immediate control-no debt to dig out of, no arrangements to cancel, no contracts to void, no new purchases to consider, and no one else to involve.

Now, I am very new to the "stach" so it will be awhile before I am handing out any technical advice on this matter, but they gotta be ready, otherwise you are just wasting your breath.

Rollin

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2013, 07:00:12 PM »
they gotta be ready, otherwise you are just wasting your breath.

I've been around awhile and I've been asked thousands of times how I do (or did) something that someone was interested in.  I don't recall many, if any that tried out what I offered, let alone followed the advice offered and stuck with what I was saying.

BTW - palio rocks!

TansyPants

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Re: How do you present Mustachian choices to non-Mustachians?
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2013, 08:01:49 PM »

"Constant optimization."  [big smile]
     -Mad Stache Moony.