How do you lose weight without using up all your willpower?

[GuitarStv]

Exercise because you have to not to frickin' die it's a powerful antidepressant and mood elevator, it helps you look good naked, it helps with confidence, has been shown to improve your mental acuity, burns some calories, and because (if you find the right activity) it's really fun.

I fixed that for you.  :P

I mean, those are all great bonuses, but the not fucking dying one take precedence for me.

Or better yet I should say not dying a slow, painful death as you rot over your latter half of your life as every system crumbles under the weight of your neglect.

Better?

Can you tell I've treated A LOT of seniors?

Yes!  The bolded part has always been of concern to me.

[jeninco]

Exercise because you have to not to frickin' die it's a powerful antidepressant and mood elevator, it helps you look good naked, it helps with confidence, has been shown to improve your mental acuity, burns some calories, and because (if you find the right activity) it's really fun.

I fixed that for you.  :P

I mean, those are all great bonuses, but the not fucking dying one take precedence for me.

Or better yet I should say not dying a slow, painful death as you rot over your latter half of your life as every system crumbles under the weight of your neglect.

Better?

Can you tell I've treated A LOT of seniors?

Yes!  The bolded part has always been of concern to me.

So much so, that after taking a careful look at my mom (a relatively in-shape 85-year old) and a dear friend of about the same age (and who has also been fairly active) I went to a trainer and said: help me build up my reservoir of strength and mobility so that when I'm 85 (with luck, and the creeks don't rise) I do not have the same back problems that those two do. And let's make it fun, so I can stick with it, M'Kay?

[Metalcat]

Exercise because you have to not to frickin' die it's a powerful antidepressant and mood elevator, it helps you look good naked, it helps with confidence, has been shown to improve your mental acuity, burns some calories, and because (if you find the right activity) it's really fun.

I fixed that for you.  :P

I mean, those are all great bonuses, but the not fucking dying one take precedence for me.

Or better yet I should say not dying a slow, painful death as you rot over your latter half of your life as every system crumbles under the weight of your neglect.

Better?

Can you tell I've treated A LOT of seniors?

Yes!  The bolded part has always been of concern to me.

So much so, that after taking a careful look at my mom (a relatively in-shape 85-year old) and a dear friend of about the same age (and who has also been fairly active) I went to a trainer and said: help me build up my reservoir of strength and mobility so that when I'm 85 (with luck, and the creeks don't rise) I do not have the same back problems that those two do. And let's make it fun, so I can stick with it, M'Kay?

My mom just had a massive brain bleed. She has complex health issues but a very healthy lifestyle. She does Pilates daily, eats really well, meditates, and gets out often in nature.

She should have been in rehab for months but they kicked her out after only 3 weeks because her muscle mass and muscle memory was so exceptional for her age and level of damage that she bounced back incredibly quickly. They expected her to have major problems with balance, but because she's worked on her balance and core strength for decades, she was fine after just a few exercise sessions and able to ditch the walker from literally one day to the next.

She has some cognitive damage, but that's not what would keep her in rehab. The people who are there for months are the people who are at constant risk for falling over due to weakness and balance problems, much of which is due to weak stabilizer muscles, not just due to the brain damage, which is why so much of stroke rehab is physical exercise (mostly clinical Pilates).

The impact of preserving core muscle mass and strength is astounding.

I personally think everyone should do Pilates, preferably clinical Pilates if they have any problems. DH has always been very active and fit, but once I got him doing Pilates at least once a week, it's unbelievable the difference it's made in his overall well being and comfort in his own body.

I'm a big, BIG fan of Pilates, and seeing it basically save my mom's life has just emphasized that. Incidentally, she's the one who introduced me to it back in the 90s.

Granted, I don't like a lot of Pilates classes and videos that are out there. They suffer from the same problem as most pre-packaged exercise systems IMO, they make them unnecessarily long in duration and difficult in intensity.

I take huge issue with the way exercise programs are designed these days, very few people can keep up with them consistently and they've convinced an entire generation that exercise needs to be that brutal to "count."

This is one of the benefits of being disabled, no one tells me to push harder or that it should hurt to benefit me. I do everything gently and easily. My routines are catered to what I can comfortably do AND what I enjoy. If I tell my PT I hate a certain exercise, she removes it.

Consistently is SO MUCH MORE important than intensity. And it's crazy how little exercise and how little intensity you need to maintain good strength, muscle mass, and balance.

Sure, you won't get super strong, super fast, or have super endurance, but do you actually need that? What super feats of physical prowess are people aiming for??

Intense exercise is great, but few average people have the capacity to sustain it as a daily routine, and this batshit crazy focus on intensity has fostered a dangerous all-or-nothing culture about exercise that's super toxic and not helping anyone...it sure does make a lot of money though by getting people to bail on exercise.

You have to side eye an exercise industry whose profit comes from people trying something and bailing on it quickly and then blaming *them* for failing to maintain the habit that was purposefully designed for them to quit.

I did a yoga class a few years ago for a work retreat thing and I couldn't believe how challenging they made it. I didn't bother doing it and just did my usual, gentle, PT exercises instead. It was a team of older, out of shape women and most of them came out of it hating yoga and wanting to never try it again.

It's just so unnecessary.

[Metta]

You have to side eye an exercise industry whose profit comes from people trying something and bailing on it quickly and then blaming *them* for failing to maintain the habit that was purposefully designed for them to quit.

I did a yoga class a few years ago for a work retreat thing and I couldn't believe how challenging they made it. I didn't bother doing it and just did my usual, gentle, PT exercises instead. It was a team of older, out of shape women and most of them came out of it hating yoga and wanting to never try it again.

It's just so unnecessary.

I agree with everything you've said here.

Regarding yoga, part of the problem is that yoga can mean anything from meditation/breathing exercises to PT-like exercises to a nearly competitive level of intensity. People who hire yoga instructors do not necessarily know that there are even differences or even know what questions to ask.

That said, it was in yoga (Iyengar yoga) that I learned that I should strive to be connected with my body and not do anything that violated where my body was that day and that each day differed. It was the opposite of every other exercise class I'd taken, which emphasized continuous progress. Iyengar yoga was also where I learned how to set up a home practice and why it was a good idea and how to modify any pose for my body's strengths or frailties. That class and instructor changed the course of my life with my body two decades ago and is why we have a home practice of daily yoga today. I wish everyone could find this, or something else that brings them the same wisdom and joy.

[GuitarStv]

I was taught at an early age that studying yoga makes your limbs supernaturally long and allows you to occasionally breathe fire.  And if Street Fighter II can't be trusted to tell me the truth then I don't think the truth is worth knowing.

[Metalcat]

You have to side eye an exercise industry whose profit comes from people trying something and bailing on it quickly and then blaming *them* for failing to maintain the habit that was purposefully designed for them to quit.

I did a yoga class a few years ago for a work retreat thing and I couldn't believe how challenging they made it. I didn't bother doing it and just did my usual, gentle, PT exercises instead. It was a team of older, out of shape women and most of them came out of it hating yoga and wanting to never try it again.

It's just so unnecessary.

I agree with everything you've said here.

Regarding yoga, part of the problem is that yoga can mean anything from meditation/breathing exercises to PT-like exercises to a nearly competitive level of intensity. People who hire yoga instructors do not necessarily know that there are even differences or even know what questions to ask.

That said, it was in yoga (Iyengar yoga) that I learned that I should strive to be connected with my body and not do anything that violated where my body was that day and that each day differed. It was the opposite of every other exercise class I'd taken, which emphasized continuous progress. Iyengar yoga was also where I learned how to set up a home practice and why it was a good idea and how to modify any pose for my body's strengths or frailties. That class and instructor changed the course of my life with my body two decades ago and is why we have a home practice of daily yoga today. I wish everyone could find this, or something else that brings them the same wisdom and joy.

Agree. A lot of yoga is very different from the typical fitness industry nonsense.

The yoga class we had was taught by an instructor from a high end gym, not a spiritual yoga organization.

It's the same way I recommend Pilates, but I specify clinical Pilates, which works with your body's strengths and limitations.

When I recommend starting Pilates for someone who isn't seriously injured I recommend a particular Winsor Pilates video from decades ago that I used to have on VHS because it's extremely gentle, only 20 minutes, and a great routine for daily exercise.

DH did that one a few times a week until he upgraded to the immensely more intense 1 hr video and he does that only once a week because it's ridiculous. He exercises every day otherwise, so that's not a problem.

But if someone is a non-exerciser, then they're going to benefit infinitely more from doing 20 minutes a day of gentle Pilates than of doing 1hr, getting their ass kicked, and then dreading it.

Unfortunately Big Fitness will take any beneficial exercise and convert it into an unsustainable intense version that's designed to be abandoned.

Except Tai Chi, no one has figured out how to fuck up Tai Chi yet as far as I know.

[zygote]

Consistently is SO MUCH MORE important than intensity. And it's crazy how little exercise and how little intensity you need to maintain good strength, muscle mass, and balance.

Sure, you won't get super strong, super fast, or have super endurance, but do you actually need that? What super feats of physical prowess are people aiming for??

Intense exercise is great, but few average people have the capacity to sustain it as a daily routine, and this batshit crazy focus on intensity has fostered a dangerous all-or-nothing culture about exercise that's super toxic and not helping anyone...it sure does make a lot of money though by getting people to bail on exercise.

You have to side eye an exercise industry whose profit comes from people trying something and bailing on it quickly and then blaming *them* for failing to maintain the habit that was purposefully designed for them to quit.

I did a yoga class a few years ago for a work retreat thing and I couldn't believe how challenging they made it. I didn't bother doing it and just did my usual, gentle, PT exercises instead. It was a team of older, out of shape women and most of them came out of it hating yoga and wanting to never try it again.

It's just so unnecessary.

I've had kind of an existential crisis around exercise lately, so this conversation about intensity vs. consistency is timely.

A few years ago, I had a good routine of a 20 minute elliptical workout 3-4 times a week. I used the time to watch videos, so I always enjoyed it and looked forward to it. My gym was a block away, so the barrier to go was low and the time commitment wasn't too bad.

I have a bunch of friends who are always trying to do marathons and half marathons, and while I was happy with my elliptical workouts, I was curious if I had the mental and physical fortitude to do a half marathon with the right training. I entered the lottery for the 2020 NYC half marathon on a whim, and was actually selected.

So instead of the elliptical, I ran 4 times a week and built up mileage to get ready for the race. Covid hit, I got sick, and the race was canceled anyway.

My exercise tolerance took a huge hit after having covid, so I took a break for a while. I kept training on and off until the race finally happened in 2022. I managed to finish, but slower than I would have in 2020.

I also messed up my IT band the week before the race, so I went to physical therapy afterwards. Just as I was finishing that up and was ready to start running again, I got covid again two more times within six months.

Now here I am with no race goal to motivate me, and much less fitness than I had before. Running doesn't feel good anymore because my heart rate goes nuts.* My gym permanently closed during covid, and the tiny elliptical I can fit in my apartment isn't nearly as good of a workout as the real one I used to use. So now I'm kind of floundering.

I do walk a ton living in NYC, so at least there's that. But I know I need to figure out something better to get in more cardio, and I've never done any kind of strength/core training, which I know is important to set my body up as I age. Plus I'm not sleeping as well as I used to, and I think the lack of exercise plays a role.

Are there any pilates/strength training videos online you recommend that are effective but not super intense and easy to do at home? Is that Winsor Pilates video on YouTube somewhere? Yoga might be an option too, but going upside down too much makes me feel gross. My old routines are just not working for me under my current circumstances, so I need to figure out a new one.

*I did go to a cardiologist after the first time I had covid, and he ordered a stress echo. It was normal, so his response to my complaint that my heart rate gets too high when I run was basically run less/slower. But the pace I have to go and the amount I have to stop and walk to keep my heart rate below even 90% of my max is excruciatingly slow, so it's really not enjoyable.

[getsorted]

I've been on a journey to figure out why dieting sometimes feels effortless and satisfying to me, and why it's sometimes emotional torture, and here is what I've come up with so far.

1. If you want to diet successfully, you have to learn to eat, and to overeat, without shame.

What? Why? Well, because you're gonna fuck up from time to time, because unfortunately you're made of meat and not circuits. And if every time you stray from your plan, you go into a spiral of self-loathing and despair, then you're going to have a terrible time. And again, because you're made of meat, you're going to avoid terrible times.

What makes dieting possible without feeling awful is the ability to screw up and accept that from a place of true neutrality. "Oh, hang on. That wasn't the plan. Oh well, tomorrow is a new day!"  And then not make drastic overcompensations, or give up entirely. This is the part of the process that takes the longest. It's like learning to walk.

You also can't learn a damn thing from within a shame spiral, and if you want to gradually reduce the number of times you stray from your plan, you are going to have to learn what influences you to stray from the plan, and learn what thoughts you have when those influences occur, and create new responses.

2. If you want to diet successfully, you have to learn your different kinds of hunger, and your different kinds of wanting to eat.

By definition, overeating means you have learned to ignore and over-ride your body's indicators of satiety, and maybe also that you're eating a lot of foods technologically engineered to override those signals.

When you have really done the work of learning to notice when you are full, what makes you feel full and keeps you there (and I am adamant that this can look very different for different people), and especially to notice the discomfort of having eaten badly, not overeating and eating healthy food starts to become something you naturally want to do. Bad food starts looking bad. Good food starts sounding good.

3. You have to stay away from people and situations that make you crazy about food, bodies, and exercise. Once you get in that good headspace, you protect it like hell.

I have an eating disordered parent who has repeatedly wrecked their health via starvation. They don't acknowledge this whatsoever and they are probably going to die prematurely because of it. I am a grown-ass woman who has fully processed her childhood traumas, of which the eating disordered parent is but a minor instance, but if I have to listen to my parent talk about diet and exercise, it will do my head in. I will start plotting ways to make my own behavior more extreme. I will feel ashamed that I haven't been as extreme as they are. I will work myself up into a state of anxiety and then I will crash. It's just an old pattern I haven't quite un-learned yet.

So, although I love my parent, I acknowledge that they have been deliberately trying to instill moral panic in me over every bite of food I put in my mouth since years and years before I ever got fat in the first place. And I just don't eat with them if I can help it. And if I can't help it, I know I'm going to have to have a good long angry journal afterwards.

I stay away from eating with people who moralize food as much as possible. Food is just food. I know what foods make me feel good and what foods make me feel bad, and I don't need everybody else's opinion constantly dancing through my brain and throwing that sense off.


4. Increase ambient joy.

Sometimes we eat because we just want to feel something nice. Wanting to feel something nice is totally fine! It's a good part of life we should all want! It's been my observation that people who have an easy time eating moderately have alternative ways of rewarding themselves, bribing themselves, caring for themselves in hard times, celebrating, etc. Coming up with these was hard for me, but it's well worth taking time to put together a big list of ways to do all of those things in ways that support building the life you want to have.

Highly recommend this book, although it is a hefty one: "Beating Overeating Using the Compassionate Mind Approach," Ken Goss. Also sometimes titled "The Compassionate Mind Approach to Beating Overeating (Compassion Focused Therapy)."

[Metalcat]

I've had kind of an existential crisis around exercise lately, so this conversation about intensity vs. consistency is timely.

A few years ago, I had a good routine of a 20 minute elliptical workout 3-4 times a week. I used the time to watch videos, so I always enjoyed it and looked forward to it. My gym was a block away, so the barrier to go was low and the time commitment wasn't too bad.

I have a bunch of friends who are always trying to do marathons and half marathons, and while I was happy with my elliptical workouts, I was curious if I had the mental and physical fortitude to do a half marathon with the right training. I entered the lottery for the 2020 NYC half marathon on a whim, and was actually selected.

So instead of the elliptical, I ran 4 times a week and built up mileage to get ready for the race. Covid hit, I got sick, and the race was canceled anyway.

My exercise tolerance took a huge hit after having covid, so I took a break for a while. I kept training on and off until the race finally happened in 2022. I managed to finish, but slower than I would have in 2020.

I also messed up my IT band the week before the race, so I went to physical therapy afterwards. Just as I was finishing that up and was ready to start running again, I got covid again two more times within six months.

Now here I am with no race goal to motivate me, and much less fitness than I had before. Running doesn't feel good anymore because my heart rate goes nuts.* My gym permanently closed during covid, and the tiny elliptical I can fit in my apartment isn't nearly as good of a workout as the real one I used to use. So now I'm kind of floundering.

I do walk a ton living in NYC, so at least there's that. But I know I need to figure out something better to get in more cardio, and I've never done any kind of strength/core training, which I know is important to set my body up as I age. Plus I'm not sleeping as well as I used to, and I think the lack of exercise plays a role.

Are there any pilates/strength training videos online you recommend that are effective but not super intense and easy to do at home? Is that Winsor Pilates video on YouTube somewhere? Yoga might be an option too, but going upside down too much makes me feel gross. My old routines are just not working for me under my current circumstances, so I need to figure out a new one.

*I did go to a cardiologist after the first time I had covid, and he ordered a stress echo. It was normal, so his response to my complaint that my heart rate gets too high when I run was basically run less/slower. But the pace I have to go and the amount I have to stop and walk to keep my heart rate below even 90% of my max is excruciatingly slow, so it's really not enjoyable.

I have POTS and from what I've read covid can trigger symptoms of POTS, so I know *exactly* what you mean about heart rate. Mine will jump up to 160 just from windexing my bathroom mirror. My Fitbit thinks I do hardcore exercise for hours a day.

Yeah, you just need to embrace lower intensity. Not a big deal.

Super intense cardio is great for...well...being able to do even more super intense cardio, but it's not exactly critical for staying healthy. My cardiologist has no concerns about my lack of brutally intense cardio, the fact that I'm active every day is fantastic (when I'm not hobbled, of course).

This is why I'm not a fan of performance goals.

I mean, cool, if you like a particular sport and want to get crazy good at it, then go ahead and have performance goals.

But don't base your overall health on them because then you're vulnerable every time something practical interrupts your performance level.

I'm not sure if I shared here or elsewhere the story of the former competitive swimmer who put on a ton of weight and asked me what exercise I did for weight and I was like "swimming" and she raved about how much she missed swimming and how much she hates the gym. Turns out she can still swim, but without a race goal, she can't bring herself to do it, so instead she gets no exercise and keeps putting in more and more weight.

Yeah...don't be that person.

As for Pilates here's the video I get everyone to do
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2z72js

After you watch you will get the joke my DH and I say to each other when one is being lazy and half adding something: "stop being such a fucking Dagne about it and just do it right."

[jrhampt]

Consistently is SO MUCH MORE important than intensity. And it's crazy how little exercise and how little intensity you need to maintain good strength, muscle mass, and balance.

Sure, you won't get super strong, super fast, or have super endurance, but do you actually need that? What super feats of physical prowess are people aiming for??

Intense exercise is great, but few average people have the capacity to sustain it as a daily routine, and this batshit crazy focus on intensity has fostered a dangerous all-or-nothing culture about exercise that's super toxic and not helping anyone...it sure does make a lot of money though by getting people to bail on exercise.

You have to side eye an exercise industry whose profit comes from people trying something and bailing on it quickly and then blaming *them* for failing to maintain the habit that was purposefully designed for them to quit.

I did a yoga class a few years ago for a work retreat thing and I couldn't believe how challenging they made it. I didn't bother doing it and just did my usual, gentle, PT exercises instead. It was a team of older, out of shape women and most of them came out of it hating yoga and wanting to never try it again.

It's just so unnecessary.

I've had kind of an existential crisis around exercise lately, so this conversation about intensity vs. consistency is timely.

A few years ago, I had a good routine of a 20 minute elliptical workout 3-4 times a week. I used the time to watch videos, so I always enjoyed it and looked forward to it. My gym was a block away, so the barrier to go was low and the time commitment wasn't too bad.

I have a bunch of friends who are always trying to do marathons and half marathons, and while I was happy with my elliptical workouts, I was curious if I had the mental and physical fortitude to do a half marathon with the right training. I entered the lottery for the 2020 NYC half marathon on a whim, and was actually selected.

So instead of the elliptical, I ran 4 times a week and built up mileage to get ready for the race. Covid hit, I got sick, and the race was canceled anyway.

My exercise tolerance took a huge hit after having covid, so I took a break for a while. I kept training on and off until the race finally happened in 2022. I managed to finish, but slower than I would have in 2020.

I also messed up my IT band the week before the race, so I went to physical therapy afterwards. Just as I was finishing that up and was ready to start running again, I got covid again two more times within six months.

Now here I am with no race goal to motivate me, and much less fitness than I had before. Running doesn't feel good anymore because my heart rate goes nuts.* My gym permanently closed during covid, and the tiny elliptical I can fit in my apartment isn't nearly as good of a workout as the real one I used to use. So now I'm kind of floundering.

I do walk a ton living in NYC, so at least there's that. But I know I need to figure out something better to get in more cardio, and I've never done any kind of strength/core training, which I know is important to set my body up as I age. Plus I'm not sleeping as well as I used to, and I think the lack of exercise plays a role.

Are there any pilates/strength training videos online you recommend that are effective but not super intense and easy to do at home? Is that Winsor Pilates video on YouTube somewhere? Yoga might be an option too, but going upside down too much makes me feel gross. My old routines are just not working for me under my current circumstances, so I need to figure out a new one.

*I did go to a cardiologist after the first time I had covid, and he ordered a stress echo. It was normal, so his response to my complaint that my heart rate gets too high when I run was basically run less/slower. But the pace I have to go and the amount I have to stop and walk to keep my heart rate below even 90% of my max is excruciatingly slow, so it's really not enjoyable.

Have you tried biking?  I also had to run at a much slower pace for about a month after I had covid, since my heart rate also felt bad.  It's since recovered, but I love biking for the sheer joy of it, and you can work your way through a book of local scenic rides, bike to a local bakery, use the rail trails, whatever you'd like to do to make it enjoyable.  I also highly, highly recommend joining a local pickleball league if your town rec center has one.  You get to meet lots of nice local friendly people, and you get exercise without even trying.

[mm1970]

I've been on a journey to figure out why dieting sometimes feels effortless and satisfying to me, and why it's sometimes emotional torture, and here is what I've come up with so far.

1. If you want to diet successfully, you have to learn to eat, and to overeat, without shame.

What? Why? Well, because you're gonna fuck up from time to time, because unfortunately you're made of meat and not circuits. And if every time you stray from your plan, you go into a spiral of self-loathing and despair, then you're going to have a terrible time. And again, because you're made of meat, you're going to avoid terrible times.

What makes dieting possible without feeling awful is the ability to screw up and accept that from a place of true neutrality. "Oh, hang on. That wasn't the plan. Oh well, tomorrow is a new day!"  And then not make drastic overcompensations, or give up entirely. This is the part of the process that takes the longest. It's like learning to walk.

You also can't learn a damn thing from within a shame spiral, and if you want to gradually reduce the number of times you stray from your plan, you are going to have to learn what influences you to stray from the plan, and learn what thoughts you have when those influences occur, and create new responses.

2. If you want to diet successfully, you have to learn your different kinds of hunger, and your different kinds of wanting to eat.

By definition, overeating means you have learned to ignore and over-ride your body's indicators of satiety, and maybe also that you're eating a lot of foods technologically engineered to override those signals.

When you have really done the work of learning to notice when you are full, what makes you feel full and keeps you there (and I am adamant that this can look very different for different people), and especially to notice the discomfort of having eaten badly, not overeating and eating healthy food starts to become something you naturally want to do. Bad food starts looking bad. Good food starts sounding good.

3. You have to stay away from people and situations that make you crazy about food, bodies, and exercise. Once you get in that good headspace, you protect it like hell.

I have an eating disordered parent who has repeatedly wrecked their health via starvation. They don't acknowledge this whatsoever and they are probably going to die prematurely because of it. I am a grown-ass woman who has fully processed her childhood traumas, of which the eating disordered parent is but a minor instance, but if I have to listen to my parent talk about diet and exercise, it will do my head in. I will start plotting ways to make my own behavior more extreme. I will feel ashamed that I haven't been as extreme as they are. I will work myself up into a state of anxiety and then I will crash. It's just an old pattern I haven't quite un-learned yet.

So, although I love my parent, I acknowledge that they have been deliberately trying to instill moral panic in me over every bite of food I put in my mouth since years and years before I ever got fat in the first place. And I just don't eat with them if I can help it. And if I can't help it, I know I'm going to have to have a good long angry journal afterwards.

I stay away from eating with people who moralize food as much as possible. Food is just food. I know what foods make me feel good and what foods make me feel bad, and I don't need everybody else's opinion constantly dancing through my brain and throwing that sense off.


4. Increase ambient joy.

Sometimes we eat because we just want to feel something nice. Wanting to feel something nice is totally fine! It's a good part of life we should all want! It's been my observation that people who have an easy time eating moderately have alternative ways of rewarding themselves, bribing themselves, caring for themselves in hard times, celebrating, etc. Coming up with these was hard for me, but it's well worth taking time to put together a big list of ways to do all of those things in ways that support building the life you want to have.

Highly recommend this book, although it is a hefty one: "Beating Overeating Using the Compassionate Mind Approach," Ken Goss. Also sometimes titled "The Compassionate Mind Approach to Beating Overeating (Compassion Focused Therapy)."

Super intense cardio is great for...well...being able to do even more super intense cardio, but it's not exactly critical for staying healthy. My cardiologist has no concerns about my lack of brutally intense cardio, the fact that I'm active every day is fantastic (when I'm not hobbled, of course).

This is why I'm not a fan of performance goals.

I mean, cool, if you like a particular sport and want to get crazy good at it, then go ahead and have performance goals.

But don't base your overall health on them because then you're vulnerable every time something practical interrupts your performance level.

Whoa, I'm going to say that these 2 posts really are speaking to me today.  I've been in a healthy coaching group (for the first time ever), and for months before signing up I thought the whole idea is stupid, because the lady is super skinny and NOT menopausal.  The reason that I take everyone else's opinion with a grain of suspicion is because I gained 15 lbs in 9 months with zero changes in my habits.  But what do I have to lose?  In a moment of weakness, I signed up.

And...yeah.  A lot of what @sadiesortsitout here is spot on from what I've been learning.  There are no bad foods, and you need to eat without shame.  And you need to learn when you are satisfied.  It's okay to decide to overeat occasionally if you really want to, but you need tools to decide not to.  (not make it the default).

Probably the only hard part that I don't agree with in this program is the daily weighing.  Most of the time I'm okay with it - the point is to track something consistently, whether it be habits or weight.  But when the weight is coming off SLLOOOWWLY (1 lb a month), it can occasionally be demoralizing.  Like, by the end of April, the scale was between 161.1 and 162.9.  So, the highest high is under 163 and the lowest  low is > 161.  The month before, it was a pound up from that.  One week vacation, up 2 lbs, doesn't drop away right away.

On the flip side, while I do spend time thinking about all this...so far, this 1 lb a month is mostly painless, as long as I eat with awareness.
--
On exercise -
Shew I was pretty hard core for a long time with the half marathons and such.  And I read a lot of books - read Next Level by Dr. Stacy Sims - which tells peri and menopausal women athletes the optimum way to exercise for their health, based on scientific research.  Plus, I follow random internet dudes (and dude-ettes) on IG who make recommendations on exercise and fat loss.  Sprint training, heavy lifting, cross fit etc.  I am aware that strength training is good as you age.

But...I find it difficult sometimes to balance things out.  I lift a few days a week at home in my living room with my DH.  I can lift heavy-ish, but I have an occasionally frozen shoulder, and sometimes my back is tweaked from something and...you know.

How much does it REALLY matter if I'm deadlifting 50 lb x 10 reps x 3 sets, vs the "optimal" heavier weights fewer sets.  I'm still staying strong and building muscle, no?  I don't have the equipment for >75 lb deadlifts, and I don't want to drive to the gym.

If my shoulder press is limited to 12.5 lbs right now and not 19 lbs, will the world come to an end?

If my running is reduced to 1x a week for 45 minutes at 14:00 miles (run/walk)...am I still an athlete?

If I modify the HIIT workouts because jumping lunges hurt my knees and I don't have the bladder control to jump rope...it's okay right?

I think I spent WAY too much time over a few years training for half marathons and lifting with hard core folks, and I lost the joy of doing a damn step aerobics workout.  I love variety.  I love doing a little bit of this and that and walking the dog - and this means I'm mediocre (at best) at everything.  And I struggle with being okay with that, sometimes.

[Metalcat]

People say a lot of shit and cite a lot of research that doesn't actually say what they claim it says.

Just do what you enjoy and do something you enjoy every day.

People make A LOT of money by trying to make it all stupidly more complicated than it needs to be. Honestly, just tune that shit out and do some enjoyable exercise every day.

[getsorted]

because the lady is super skinny and NOT menopausal. 

I feel you there. Perimenopause has come early for me and just... wow. I've been reading "The Hormone Repair Manual," which I'm not sure if I trust yet, but just getting the outline of what exactly happens to a woman's hormones between 40 and 60 has been so enlightening and helpful. Things feel different. Foods affect me differently (and I'm so glad I did the intuitive eating work I did years ago, because otherwise I don't think I'd even notice that they affect me differently). I retain and shed water like I never did before. It absolutely feels like the whole game is changing.

I have definitely found that activity needs to be different for me at different points in my cycle, particularly since I'm not making much progesterone. I have big swings in endurance, strength, pain....

Probably the only hard part that I don't agree with in this program is the daily weighing.  Most of the time I'm okay with it - the point is to track something consistently, whether it be habits or weight.  But when the weight is coming off SLLOOOWWLY (1 lb a month), it can occasionally be demoralizing. 

I don't weigh myself except at the doctor, partly because yes, the pace of healthy weight loss can be demoralizing, but also because it sets off something in my brain I don't want to encourage. I begin to hyperfocus and do things that I should not do because I want the number to go down. I can track calories and steps without the same obsessiveness, so that's what I do.

I think it's totally okay to focus on the habits instead of the outcomes, especially when you are trying to get the joy back. The joy is what makes all this sustainable, especially in times when life is otherwise hard!

[Cassie]

A few days ago the newer diabetes drugs were all over the evening national news because of the weight loss. They did say that once people quit taking them the weight comes back. Much better to develop an exercise and eating plan that you can stick to without a lot of effort.

Doesn't have to be a false dilemma.  I've had an exercise and eating plan that worked for decades.  As you get older, it's harder to ramp up exercise and you can only cut out gluten, dairy, sugar, and limit carbs so much...

I thought I would never lose weight below 200 lbs, other than temporarily with extraordinary effort like my final week training and running a half marathon or using 48 hour fasts... got me below 200 but was unsustainable to keep me there for a full month.  I have now been below 200 lbs for over a month and I have a 'normal' life - eating smaller portions while enjoying more variety, exercising in a more realistic, sustainable regimen like walking/hiking, swimming, biking.  I basically *had* to run or get my heart rate over 160 every day in order to stay below 200 lbs prior to Semaglutide. 

I'm not out to get super skinny or attractive, I just want to feel energetic and reduce damage to my joints so I can continue an active lifestyle as long as possible.

I am 69 in 2 months so well aware of what age does to your metabolism and the same with menopause. At 50 I had to go on a beta blocker for HBP and a too fast erratic heartbeat. A beta blocker slows down your metabolism. Not only do those drugs cause some pretty nasty side effects for some people but according to the news are going to cost 1k/month. Not to many people can afford that. In addition, people gain the weight back once they quit taking it.  So much better to figure out how to be a healthy weight with regular exercise the old fashioned way.

[dividendman]

Have you tried biking?  I also had to run at a much slower pace for about a month after I had covid, since my heart rate also felt bad.  It's since recovered, but I love biking for the sheer joy of it, and you can work your way through a book of local scenic rides, bike to a local bakery, use the rail trails, whatever you'd like to do to make it enjoyable.  I also highly, highly recommend joining a local pickleball league if your town rec center has one.  You get to meet lots of nice local friendly people, and you get exercise without even trying.

Haha... I do this sometimes... I'm quite sure the calories I eat from the baked goods more than cancels out the bike ride. I still like it though.

[jrhampt]

Have you tried biking?  I also had to run at a much slower pace for about a month after I had covid, since my heart rate also felt bad.  It's since recovered, but I love biking for the sheer joy of it, and you can work your way through a book of local scenic rides, bike to a local bakery, use the rail trails, whatever you'd like to do to make it enjoyable.  I also highly, highly recommend joining a local pickleball league if your town rec center has one.  You get to meet lots of nice local friendly people, and you get exercise without even trying.

Haha... I do this sometimes... I'm quite sure the calories I eat from the baked goods more than cancels out the bike ride. I still like it though.

It may cancel out the *calories burned* from the bike ride, but it does not cancel out the enjoyment or fitness benefits from the bike ride.  It's not all about calories!! 

Anyway, this is how I got some of my friends into biking...one of them loves bakeries, so I biked her to bakeries.  One of them loves wineries, so I biked her to wineries.  Whatever works ;-)

[getsorted]

Anyway, this is how I got some of my friends into biking...one of them loves bakeries, so I biked her to bakeries.  One of them loves wineries, so I biked her to wineries.  Whatever works ;-)

Um, can I be your friend? I mean, I already like biking, but I can pretend not to if the result is being biked to bakeries and wineries!

[zygote]

Have you tried biking?  I also had to run at a much slower pace for about a month after I had covid, since my heart rate also felt bad.  It's since recovered, but I love biking for the sheer joy of it, and you can work your way through a book of local scenic rides, bike to a local bakery, use the rail trails, whatever you'd like to do to make it enjoyable.  I also highly, highly recommend joining a local pickleball league if your town rec center has one.  You get to meet lots of nice local friendly people, and you get exercise without even trying.

Thanks for the suggestion! In another life, I think I would enjoy biking. But logistically where I am now it's not a good fit. I live in a 5th floor walkup in NYC. There is no way I am buying a bike and carrying it up and down 4 flights of stairs every time I want to use it. I supposed I could use the citi bike rentals but they're kind of inconvenient and expensive. That's why running was so great for a while - free and no equipment needed.

Regardless, I'm kind of terrified to bike here. No way I would feel comfortable biking in the street (I know plenty of people do but it is not for me with how unpredictable drivers and other bikers are), and even the lanes in the parks are so crowded with pedestrians and other bikers they're hard to navigate.

Swimming is another one that I would really physically enjoy, but it's too difficult/expensive to get regular access to a pool here.

I'm gonna try Metalcat's video at home tonight, and I'm hoping I'll like it!

[wenchsenior]

Have you tried biking?  I also had to run at a much slower pace for about a month after I had covid, since my heart rate also felt bad.  It's since recovered, but I love biking for the sheer joy of it, and you can work your way through a book of local scenic rides, bike to a local bakery, use the rail trails, whatever you'd like to do to make it enjoyable.  I also highly, highly recommend joining a local pickleball league if your town rec center has one.  You get to meet lots of nice local friendly people, and you get exercise without even trying.

Thanks for the suggestion! In another life, I think I would enjoy biking. But logistically where I am now it's not a good fit. I live in a 5th floor walkup in NYC. There is no way I am buying a bike and carrying it up and down 4 flights of stairs every time I want to use it. I supposed I could use the citi bike rentals but they're kind of inconvenient and expensive. That's why running was so great for a while - free and no equipment needed.

Regardless, I'm kind of terrified to bike here. No way I would feel comfortable biking in the street (I know plenty of people do but it is not for me with how unpredictable drivers and other bikers are), and even the lanes in the parks are so crowded with pedestrians and other bikers they're hard to navigate.

Swimming is another one that I would really physically enjoy, but it's too difficult/expensive to get regular access to a pool here.

I'm gonna try Metalcat's video at home tonight, and I'm hoping I'll like it!

I know it's close to heresy on this forum, and I understand why, but I will never be biking on city roads other than neighborhood streets. I understand the broadscale statistics indicated biking is not that dangerous, but unfortunately my personal sample size in my life has been terrifying. Two people I know (one a good friend) killed by cars while biking in the city, one good friend crushed by a falling tree and ended up in the emergency room (I understand that if the fluke tree had hit a car, they might still have been hurt, but clearly not as badly), and another good friend injured by a car strike such that he required two reconstructive surgeries to shoulder and arm and more than 5 YEARS of continuous rehab to be able to use one arm close to normally again. ETA: Oh shit, I forgot another good friend who has been struck multiple times by cars and broken multiple bones. Not sure if he's still biking any more.

Not to mention (on the other end of the spectrum) I was walking across campus and was struck by someone on a bike and it blew out my ACL so that I required surgery and rehab as well.

Basically mixing pedestrians with bikes or bikes with cars is not for me.

[oneday]

Isn't living in a 5th floor walkup enough added exercise? Walking up and down stairs can be great cardio and strength training for your legs.

IME living on the 3rd floor for well over a decade: firstly, I had all kinds of strategies to avoid making multiple trips on the stairs and secondly it only gets you in good enough shape to go up that number of flights of stairs. Does not profoundly impact fitness level. But maybe that's just lazy ol' me.

[Metalcat]

Isn't living in a 5th floor walkup enough added exercise? Walking up and down stairs can be great cardio and strength training for your legs.

IME living on the 3rd floor for well over a decade: firstly, I had all kinds of strategies to avoid making multiple trips on the stairs and secondly it only gets you in good enough shape to go up that number of flights of stairs. Does not profoundly impact fitness level. But maybe that's just lazy ol' me.

Also, a few flights of stairs takes, what, less than a minute?

When I had legs that worked I frequently walked up 20 flights of stairs and it would take me the duration of a single song on my "stairs" playlist, and that was not taking them at a fast pace at all, like, slower than any normal person would take a normal flight of stairs.

Stairs feel like they take a long time, but a flight takes seconds.

[zygote]

Isn't living in a 5th floor walkup enough added exercise? Walking up and down stairs can be great cardio and strength training for your legs.

IME living on the 3rd floor for well over a decade: firstly, I had all kinds of strategies to avoid making multiple trips on the stairs and secondly it only gets you in good enough shape to go up that number of flights of stairs. Does not profoundly impact fitness level. But maybe that's just lazy ol' me.

Also, a few flights of stairs takes, what, less than a minute?

When I had legs that worked I frequently walked up 20 flights of stairs and it would take me the duration of a single song on my "stairs" playlist, and that was not taking them at a fast pace at all, like, slower than any normal person would take a normal flight of stairs.

Stairs feel like they take a long time, but a flight takes seconds.

The trek up the stairs is indeed good cardio (it makes even our most fit friends huff and puff when they visit), but I only do it once or twice a day, and it's very brief. I'm sure it's good for me on some level, but it's not making or breaking my overall fitness.

I did try that pilates work out last night, and it was really good! Thanks again for the recommendation. Today my core is a good level of sore. It's clear I did something productive, but I didn't overdo it. I unfortunately did have to be a fucking Dagne about it, though, because I don't have enough room in my living room for the full range of motion for a lot of the exercises, haha.

[RetireOrDieTrying]

People say a lot of shit and cite a lot of research that doesn't actually say what they claim it says.

Just do what you enjoy and do something you enjoy every day.

People make A LOT of money by trying to make it all stupidly more complicated than it needs to be. Honestly, just tune that shit out and do some enjoyable exercise every day.

If anyone takes ANYTHING from this thread, listen to this woman's advice right here. Pick something you like eating (and which isn't terrible for you), and eat that in moderation. Pick some activity you like doing, and do it. Getcher ass to bed on a schedule. The end.

I personally pay attention to my nutrition counts, because it's analagous to paying attention to the credit card bill. If I don't count the in and out then I'll rack up a debt one way or the other, but I don't spend more than a few seconds doing this.

I'm here to tell you, this approach works for me in a big way. As of this morning I've dropped 30 pounds in the last 2.5 months. My exercise is about a total of 3 minutes of sit-ups, push-ups, lunges, and pull-ups every other day. One set of each and done. THAT'S IT.

I'll shut up now - I need to head over to Duluth Trading to get a couple of clothes which actually fit without falling off. :)

[Shuchong]

Swimming is another one that I would really physically enjoy, but it's too difficult/expensive to get regular access to a pool here.

Not sure where you live in NYC, but I used to go to a public rec center in midtown east that had a pool.  (https://www.nycgovparks.org/facilities/recreationcenters/M130)    They also have a small indoor track, some cardio machines/treadmills, a weight room, and a basketball court, and a random dance studio with mats that you can use to stretch.  I've since moved, but if I hadn't, I'd absolutely still be going there.   

There are a few other rec centers that have the same -- you can look them up on the nycgovparks website.  Annual membership fee is $150 (yes, annual, not monthly).

Another general stay-in-shape alternative: I just adopted a dog.  Now, I must go for three walks a day, and am also way more conscious of my snacking since she wants to come over and investigate every single piece of food I take out of the fridge. 

[Metalcat]

Isn't living in a 5th floor walkup enough added exercise? Walking up and down stairs can be great cardio and strength training for your legs.

IME living on the 3rd floor for well over a decade: firstly, I had all kinds of strategies to avoid making multiple trips on the stairs and secondly it only gets you in good enough shape to go up that number of flights of stairs. Does not profoundly impact fitness level. But maybe that's just lazy ol' me.

Also, a few flights of stairs takes, what, less than a minute?

When I had legs that worked I frequently walked up 20 flights of stairs and it would take me the duration of a single song on my "stairs" playlist, and that was not taking them at a fast pace at all, like, slower than any normal person would take a normal flight of stairs.

Stairs feel like they take a long time, but a flight takes seconds.

The trek up the stairs is indeed good cardio (it makes even our most fit friends huff and puff when they visit), but I only do it once or twice a day, and it's very brief. I'm sure it's good for me on some level, but it's not making or breaking my overall fitness.

I did try that pilates work out last night, and it was really good! Thanks again for the recommendation. Today my core is a good level of sore. It's clear I did something productive, but I didn't overdo it. I unfortunately did have to be a fucking Dagne about it, though, because I don't have enough room in my living room for the full range of motion for a lot of the exercises, haha.

I'm always the Dagne when I do Pilates, my twisted legs can't do it properly.

But the joke is for when one of us is half assing something else, like if DH is being lazy about changing his whole outfit to go out for dinner and thinks just putting a nice sweater over his daytime Garanimals will suffice, then I'm like "don't be a fuckin' Dagne about it and change your damn clothes."

[mspym]

I am quite often the Dagne and I appreciate that they put her in. If you haven't worked those core muscles before and also don't know how to engage them, you can absolutely do more harm than good by accidentally cranking your neck or hip flexor muscles to get through the movement. [I first threw out my back coming out of the Plow at a yoga class! It was a horrible surprise and not a good time!]

[cannotWAIT]

I've done mat Pilates for a few years now, it's great, but I just started taking a reformer Pilates class and holy hell, it is so amazingly great. I would heartily endorse it for anyone who has not not been exercising regularly, too, because it doesn't feel effortful at all. Sliding around on the reformer makes it easy and fun. The first class I took I was mentally grousing the whole time "why aren't we doing more reps? why aren't we using more resistance?" but then the next day I was exactly the right amount of sore all over and now just a few classes later I'm already seeing and feeling a big difference. It's wonderful for my operated back, my operated shoulder, my impinged hip, my angry knee, everything.

[Metalcat]

I am quite often the Dagne and I appreciate that they put her in. If you haven't worked those core muscles before and also don't know how to engage them, you can absolutely do more harm than good by accidentally cranking your neck or hip flexor muscles to get through the movement. [I first threw out my back coming out of the Plow at a yoga class! It was a horrible surprise and not a good time!]

Lol, okay, for the last time, the joke isn't actually about modified Pilates, of course it's beneficial to have someone demonstrate modified form. I just thought it was funny to share an inside joke, which anyone who watches the video would instantly get the reference.

[wenchsenior]

For some reason, Metalcat, when you've mentioned doing pilates (in this thread and others) I somehow got the impression that you'd tracked down some super-specialized version of it run by a physician (not sure why I thought this). So when I checked that link I was expecting something I'd never seen before.

And then I was all, "Oh, shit, not THIS class that used to kick my ass more than 20 years ago!"

LOL.  It goes to show, sometimes the most basic versions of things are always the best.

Also, I'm old. ETA: Not really, but it feels like it sometimes.

[Metalcat]

For some reason, Metalcat, when you've mentioned doing pilates (in this thread and others) I somehow got the impression that you'd tracked down some super-specialized version of it run by a physician (not sure why I thought this). So when I checked that link I was expecting something I'd never seen before.

And then I was all, "Oh, shit, not THIS class that used to kick my ass more than 20 years ago!"

LOL.  It goes to show, sometimes the most basic versions of things are always the best.

Also, I'm old. ETA: Not really, but it feels like it sometimes.

When *I* do Pilates, I do specialized Clinical Pilates that is customized to my particular injuries and needs.

That is the video I recommend to others who want to try Pilates who don't need clinical Pilates.

[wenchsenior]

For some reason, Metalcat, when you've mentioned doing pilates (in this thread and others) I somehow got the impression that you'd tracked down some super-specialized version of it run by a physician (not sure why I thought this). So when I checked that link I was expecting something I'd never seen before.

And then I was all, "Oh, shit, not THIS class that used to kick my ass more than 20 years ago!"

LOL.  It goes to show, sometimes the most basic versions of things are always the best.

Also, I'm old. ETA: Not really, but it feels like it sometimes.

When *I* do Pilates, I do specialized Clinical Pilates that is customized to my particular injuries and needs.

That is the video I recommend to others who want to try Pilates who don't need clinical Pilates.

Ah, so I wasn't hallucinating. Good to know :)

[mm1970]

I just finished reading the book Burn:

https://www.amazon.com/Burn-Research-Really-Calories-Healthy/dp/0593421043/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=Burn+Book&qid=1683562292&sr=8-6

I need to process it more, because really - it's pretty technical, but if you are looking for a how-to, it's not really that.  A few takeaways:

1. We lose weight by controlling our food intake.
2. We don't lose weight by exercise.  Plenty of recent studies show that our bodies burn calories using a constrained metabolism - if you exercise more, you will burn slightly more calories, but mostly, the body compensates by using fewer calories for other bodily functions.
3. Metabolism is heavily correlated to body weight, more specifically lean body mass.
4. The brain (hypothalmus), is particularly good at instructing you to eat more - thanks to evolution, it wants you to eat what you ate when you were heavier.  This is one reason why most people gain the weight back.
5. A 2018 (?) study took 3 groups of people - a group of people who had been formerly overweight or obese, and lost weight and kept it off.  They were members of the NWCR.  A second group of overweight/obese people who matched the first group's starting weights.  A third group of people who had always been normal weight but matched the first group's final weight.

- Group 1, the formerly obese?  Their daily energy usage was the same as the overweight/ obese, and notably higher than the never overweight.
- The reason for this was increased activity.  Their bodies pushed them to eat more, so they compensated with about an hour of additional low intensity general movement a day, and 40 min of medium to high intensity.  So, exercise can be helpful for weight maintenance, if not weight loss.

Generally, whether you are a hunter/gatherer Hadza or a couch potato first world human, your energy output tracks with your weight, and not your activity level.

[GuitarStv]

Sounds wrong.

I weigh about 200 - 205 during the winter, and then spring to fall will steadily lose weight.  By the end of the fall I'm usually around 190-195 lbs.  This is very reliable . . . it has been happening for ages every year for me now.  There are a few differences in my lifestyle:
- I cycle much more during the warmer months, spending 8-12 hours each week riding my bike at a decent pace (70-90% of my max heart rate).
- I eat much more.  Somewhere between 10 - 15,000 additional calories each week because I'm always starving due to the cycling.

If people don't lose calories through exercise then explain how eating more and exercising more causes weight lose.  The only conclusion that I can come to is that the book is missing something quite fundamental and drawing invalid (or incomplete) conclusions.

[Metalcat]

Sounds wrong.

I weigh about 200 - 205 during the winter, and then spring to fall will steadily lose weight.  By the end of the fall I'm usually around 190-195 lbs.  This is very reliable . . . it has been happening for ages every year for me now.  There are a few differences in my lifestyle:
- I cycle much more during the warmer months, spending 8-12 hours each week riding my bike at a decent pace (70-90% of my max heart rate).
- I eat much more.  Somewhere between 10 - 15,000 additional calories each week because I'm always starving due to the cycling.

If people don't lose calories through exercise then explain how eating more and exercising more causes weight lose.  The only conclusion that I can come to is that the book is missing something quite fundamental and drawing invalid (or incomplete) conclusions.

His book is essentially just saying that you can't put exercise a bad diet, which is pretty common knowledge.

Not that exercise doesn't modify daily caloric burn, but that even a lot of intense exercise will generally keep your metabolism within a certain range of burn daily.

So if you aren't managing your intake to a reasonable level, you can't just indefinitely offset it with more exercise.

It's not a radical conclusion at all, it's basically just what everyone already knows but with some interpretation of research to support it.

That's why it's also not a weight loss book, it's just a book saying that you have to manage your diet to manage your weight. You can't just neglect that part, hit the gym, and expect to lose a ton of weight.

[mm1970]

Sounds wrong.

I weigh about 200 - 205 during the winter, and then spring to fall will steadily lose weight.  By the end of the fall I'm usually around 190-195 lbs.  This is very reliable . . . it has been happening for ages every year for me now.  There are a few differences in my lifestyle:
- I cycle much more during the warmer months, spending 8-12 hours each week riding my bike at a decent pace (70-90% of my max heart rate).
- I eat much more.  Somewhere between 10 - 15,000 additional calories each week because I'm always starving due to the cycling.

If people don't lose calories through exercise then explain how eating more and exercising more causes weight lose.  The only conclusion that I can come to is that the book is missing something quite fundamental and drawing invalid (or incomplete) conclusions.

Well, @Metalcat already answered.  The book doesn't claim to answer all questions...but many studies he reports are done using doubly labeled water.

But also...there's an entire chapter about "but what about people like these extreme athletes", and it holds true for them too, but recognizing that there are outliers who just burn a little bit more.

One of the studies reported results from people who ran cross country, basically doing a marathon a day (there weren't that many participants, so the data is limited).  For the first month (?) their calorie burn was off the charts - they were actually burning the additional "marathon" calories.  But as time when on, their bodies adjusted so that they didn't burn as many calories every day.

Anyway, I'm doing a bad job of summarizing, but I recommend the book.  The science-y parts about apes and monkeys were pretty fascinating too.

[jeninco]

For some reason, Metalcat, when you've mentioned doing pilates (in this thread and others) I somehow got the impression that you'd tracked down some super-specialized version of it run by a physician (not sure why I thought this). So when I checked that link I was expecting something I'd never seen before.

And then I was all, "Oh, shit, not THIS class that used to kick my ass more than 20 years ago!"

LOL.  It goes to show, sometimes the most basic versions of things are always the best.

Also, I'm old. ETA: Not really, but it feels like it sometimes.

When *I* do Pilates, I do specialized Clinical Pilates that is customized to my particular injuries and needs.

That is the video I recommend to others who want to try Pilates who don't need clinical Pilates.

Ah, so I wasn't hallucinating. Good to know :)

Haha, when I'm looking for a Pilates class, I specify "Classical Pilates", because I just want ... you know, basic Pilates, without bells and whistles, and hyphens (Pi-Yo, or whatever hyphenated thing they've come up with now). Just 3-5 perfect whatevers, then move on to the next thing, please! The teachers I've most liked have been the ex-dancers who trained with Romana, and aren't trying to invent the next great thing.

And I really enjoy pilates reformer classes. There's a flavor of playground jungle-gym to it!

[Metalcat]

Sounds wrong.

I weigh about 200 - 205 during the winter, and then spring to fall will steadily lose weight.  By the end of the fall I'm usually around 190-195 lbs.  This is very reliable . . . it has been happening for ages every year for me now.  There are a few differences in my lifestyle:
- I cycle much more during the warmer months, spending 8-12 hours each week riding my bike at a decent pace (70-90% of my max heart rate).
- I eat much more.  Somewhere between 10 - 15,000 additional calories each week because I'm always starving due to the cycling.

If people don't lose calories through exercise then explain how eating more and exercising more causes weight lose.  The only conclusion that I can come to is that the book is missing something quite fundamental and drawing invalid (or incomplete) conclusions.

Well, @Metalcat already answered.  The book doesn't claim to answer all questions...but many studies he reports are done using doubly labeled water.

But also...there's an entire chapter about "but what about people like these extreme athletes", and it holds true for them too, but recognizing that there are outliers who just burn a little bit more.

One of the studies reported results from people who ran cross country, basically doing a marathon a day (there weren't that many participants, so the data is limited).  For the first month (?) their calorie burn was off the charts - they were actually burning the additional "marathon" calories.  But as time when on, their bodies adjusted so that they didn't burn as many calories every day.

Anyway, I'm doing a bad job of summarizing, but I recommend the book.  The science-y parts about apes and monkeys were pretty fascinating too.

Yeah, it's basically just saying metabolisms can't be permanently pushed to their extremes. Bodies will always adjust towards a range of homeostasis pretty much no matter what you subject them to.

Bodies just don't want to lose a ton of weight, so they'll throw up whatever mechanism necessary to slow that process.

If you eat too little, your system will slow to a crawl to burn less to match your intake. If you exercise a ton, your system will maximize its efficiency and find a way to lose less weight.

The system has evolved to hold onto weight by just about any means necessary. So a reasonable fluctuation like GuitarStv's makes perfect sense. It's just variation around the mean of his normal range.

But losing substantial amounts of weight is where it gets tricky, or trying to offset excessive caloric intake with exercise. Anything in the extremes starts pushing the system to regulate itself.

I lost weight no problem because I lost so incredibly slowly, but it did slow my metabolism after 4 years, especially combined with being I'll and often physically inactive.

I couldn't lose weight unless I ate under 1000 calories a day, it was horrifying.

As I said, bodies just DO NOT like losing a lot of weight. The body will fight back.

[TheAnonOne]

2 month update on Tirzepatide:

260->237, for 23 lbs down.

Very little exercise, 1-2 days light weight lifting and a bit of walking.

Other than occasionally feeling a little "off" if I eat too much, and sometimes feeling a bit sluggish, very minor side effects. My appetite isn't even that bad, but the weight still comes off.

Magic so far.

[StarBright]

I couldn't lose weight unless I ate under 1000 calories a day, it was horrifying.

As I said, bodies just DO NOT like losing a lot of weight. The body will fight back.

This is what my mother is dealing with right now: About 1200 calories a day and walking somewhere between 20-30k steps. She is 5'8". Her bloodwork is perfect, but it just seems miserable. She just watches us and nibbles at veggies when we eat together or busies herself serving food/cleaning so that she doesn't have to watch.  I hate it for her and hope that it isn't my own future. 

[Metalcat]

I couldn't lose weight unless I ate under 1000 calories a day, it was horrifying.

As I said, bodies just DO NOT like losing a lot of weight. The body will fight back.

This is what my mother is dealing with right now: About 1200 calories a day and walking somewhere between 20-30k steps. She is 5'8". Her bloodwork is perfect, but it just seems miserable. She just watches us and nibbles at veggies when we eat together or busies herself serving food/cleaning so that she doesn't have to watch.  I hate it for her and hope that it isn't my own future.

It was brutal for me. I basically had to eat like an anorexic person just to not actively gain. I felt miserable and just lugging my body out of bed felt like carrying bags of wet sand.

I was not a happy camper.

[getsorted]

I've been trying and failing to find an article that was published in response to the "Biggest Loser" study several years back, about metabolic adaptation after substantial weight loss. The gist of it was that the metabolic slowdown could almost entirely be attributed to muscle loss. Despite looking more muscular after their transformations, most participants had lean body mass significantly less than before starting. It's impossible not to lose some muscle mass in a prolonged calorie deficit; the best you can do is minimize it. The conclusion was that every big "cut" (weight loss) needed to be followed by a "bulk" (building lean muscle mass).

When I was in my late-20s, my immune system decided to kill my thyroid and I was constantly exhausted; I reached muscle fatigue from things like walking up a few stairs, or even from chewing. My metabolic slowdown was so severe that I couldn't stay awake for an entire day and my endocrinologist was concerned that I was at risk of myxedemic coma. Even after thyroid hormone levels were normalized by medicine, it was obvious to me that I had lost a lot of muscle-- not even counting the large muscle groups, I suddenly couldn't open jars; my face would become sore if I smiled or laughed too much; I couldn't hold yoga poses that a year earlier had been simple.

After my thyroid hormone levels were normalized, I went on a diet and found that my basal metabolic rate was much lower than the Harris-Benedict equation predicted-- like some of you up-thread, I was eating 1000 calories a day and still losing very slowly (I'm 5'8").

By contrast, I am now 10 years older and dieting again, and my caloric burn is now quite a lot higher than it was at the same weight then (I have the spreadsheets!). I think the main reason is that I have restored a lot of muscle mass by doing a lot of weight training and PT while keeping my caloric intake steady.

Maybe you can't exercise your way to weight loss, but you can't restore your metabolic rate without adding back lean mass lost in the process.

[bryan995]

Have any (non diabetics) used a CGM to monitor sugar levels in response to different foods / fasting / exercise etc?

I asked my PCP for a Rx and he was very supportive.;  Obviously insurance won't cover (do they cover anything? ha), so the cost was $74.99 at Costco for two 14-day sensors (Freestyle Libre 3).  Its only day 1, but I suspect this will be quite eye-opening to see how my body responds in real time to specific foods/drinks. 

[Metalcat]

Have any (non diabetics) used a CGM to monitor sugar levels in response to different foods / fasting / exercise etc?

I asked my PCP for a Rx and he was very supportive.;  Obviously insurance won't cover (do they cover anything? ha), so the cost was $74.99 at Costco for two 14-day sensors (Freestyle Libre 3).  Its only day 1, but I suspect this will be quite eye-opening to see how my body responds in real time to specific foods/drinks.

There's A LOT of controversy as to what the data from CGM even means for non diabetics.

A lot of the "gurus" that make claims about CGM data are known to stretch their interpretations of the existing research pretty far.

It can't hurt, and it would be interesting, but I wouldn't let it guide my eating necessarily.

[Mariposa]

I've been making changes now for 2 months. First, I cut out most processed foods and started eating mostly nutrient-dense foods. Then I cut out most snacking. This basically lead to no weight loss after about a month. But then I got sick and didn't feel like eating much, and then I went 36 hours with no eating to prepare for a screening colonoscopy. I am now consistently down 2lbs, and I can tell that some of it is fat loss.

My goal is to go down ~10lbs of mostly fat and build up lean muscle in order to control my pre-diabetes. This would actually be a huge change to my body composition, so I plan on doing this over a year or so.

Some observations:

1. Eating nutrient-dense foods really does help with food cravings. I eat a salad with lots of raw chopped vegetables for lunch, and this keeps me full for hours.

2. Going 36 hours without eating showed me that hunger is just a feeling; it doesn't mean than my blood sugar is about to tank, or I'm about to crash. I think @Metalcat said that the feeling of hunger is your body preparing to eat; doesn't mean your body NEEDS food RIGHT NOW.

3. My palate has definitely changed. I ate my kid's leftover chocolate cake a while ago and felt totally nauseated. I now sometimes crave raw red pepper.

4. Now that I've developed "food awareness" of what I'm putting into my body each day, I can ease up on the no snacking. I'm eating ~1600 calories on relatively sedentary days and ~2000 calories on days I exercise 1-2 hours. Eating many of the same foods every day for breakfast and lunch helps. I change up the chopped vegetables in my salad for variety.

5. Restaurants are a downfall. We order too many courses (we're rich!), but it's one of the few things everyone in my family enjoys doing, so I'm going to have to figure something out for that. I also hate wasting food, so eating my kid's leftovers (see chocolate cake above) is another problem.

6. Going to the climbing gym has been great for building muscle. Even going once a week, it's now easier for me to open jars, and I can lift the KitchenAid out of the high cabinet. My kid is taking a break from lessons at the moment, so it's harder for me to do this. I'm probably going to get my own membership at some point. In the meantime, I'm doing sets of 1-leg squats on most days and core workout 2x a week, in addition to biking and ice skating 2x a week.

7. I have the bandwidth to carry out this plan because I'm working minimally. I don't need to reward myself with food.

8. I'm weighing myself on most days, to make sure the overall trend is down. Also, it's actually somewhat reassuring to me that I'm going down almost imperceptibly. I'm trying to change my body composition in a big way, and I want this to be sustainable.

[StarBright]

@sadiesortsitout   - is it this one? https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html

I sent it to my parents when they were encouraging drastic dieting strategies for me.

It was still in my email :)

[getsorted]

@sadiesortsitout   - is it this one? https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html

I sent it to my parents when they were encouraging drastic dieting strategies for me.

It was still in my email :)

That's not it, but that's the article that the article I mean was replying to!

As a fellow child of serial drastic dieters-- whatever shuts them up, keep sending that. Haha

[bryan995]

Have any (non diabetics) used a CGM to monitor sugar levels in response to different foods / fasting / exercise etc?

I asked my PCP for a Rx and he was very supportive.;  Obviously insurance won't cover (do they cover anything? ha), so the cost was $74.99 at Costco for two 14-day sensors (Freestyle Libre 3).  Its only day 1, but I suspect this will be quite eye-opening to see how my body responds in real time to specific foods/drinks.

There's A LOT of controversy as to what the data from CGM even means for non diabetics.

A lot of the "gurus" that make claims about CGM data are known to stretch their interpretations of the existing research pretty far.

It can't hurt, and it would be interesting, but I wouldn't let it guide my eating necessarily.

No?  I plan to let it monitor my current eating habits for a few weeks, and then will make changes that trend things in the right direction.

It can predict metabolic health and insulin resistance.  It can also make it blatantly obvious which foods one should avoid, or how stress impacts overall health (and BG).  I'll use it for a few months and see what value it adds.  But I don't expect it to be totally worthless for non-diabetics !

[Malossi792]

Have any (non diabetics) used a CGM to monitor sugar levels in response to different foods / fasting / exercise etc?

I asked my PCP for a Rx and he was very supportive.;  Obviously insurance won't cover (do they cover anything? ha), so the cost was $74.99 at Costco for two 14-day sensors (Freestyle Libre 3).  Its only day 1, but I suspect this will be quite eye-opening to see how my body responds in real time to specific foods/drinks.

There's A LOT of controversy as to what the data from CGM even means for non diabetics.

A lot of the "gurus" that make claims about CGM data are known to stretch their interpretations of the existing research pretty far.

It can't hurt, and it would be interesting, but I wouldn't let it guide my eating necessarily.

No?  I plan to let it monitor my current eating habits for a few weeks, and then will make changes that trend things in the right direction.

It can predict metabolic health and insulin resistance.  It can also make it blatantly obvious which foods one should avoid, or how stress impacts overall health (and BG).  I'll use it for a few months and see what value it adds.  But I don't expect it to be totally worthless for non-diabetics !

Monitor whatever you like, but please consult your physician before/during/after.

[Metalcat]

Have any (non diabetics) used a CGM to monitor sugar levels in response to different foods / fasting / exercise etc?

I asked my PCP for a Rx and he was very supportive.;  Obviously insurance won't cover (do they cover anything? ha), so the cost was $74.99 at Costco for two 14-day sensors (Freestyle Libre 3).  Its only day 1, but I suspect this will be quite eye-opening to see how my body responds in real time to specific foods/drinks.

There's A LOT of controversy as to what the data from CGM even means for non diabetics.

A lot of the "gurus" that make claims about CGM data are known to stretch their interpretations of the existing research pretty far.

It can't hurt, and it would be interesting, but I wouldn't let it guide my eating necessarily.

No?  I plan to let it monitor my current eating habits for a few weeks, and then will make changes that trend things in the right direction.

It can predict metabolic health and insulin resistance.  It can also make it blatantly obvious which foods one should avoid, or how stress impacts overall health (and BG).  I'll use it for a few months and see what value it adds.  But I don't expect it to be totally worthless for non-diabetics !

The research is suggestive but unclear and the "normal" range for non-diabetics isn't certain either. It would be great for catching pre-diabetes, that's true. But I have so little concern about diabetes that I personally don't see a clear benefit to wearing one or clear indicators as how I should modify my behaviour based on readings that don't yet have clear interpretations.

The research in this area is explosive though because marketing CGMs to healthy people is ENORMOUSLY profitable, and it's easy to study, so I expect droves and droves of more useful data to come out.

[jrhampt]

Someone mentioned restaurant eating as a dieting downfall.  Here are my strategies for being able to eat delicious things at restaurants without gaining weight and feeling gross/bloated afterwards (I live on the shore so I tilt heavily to seafood):

1.  If there is raw seafood on the menu, I order that (poke bowl, tuna tartare, raw oysters, ceviche).  All of this stuff is low calorie protein that is highly nutritious.  If you're not into raw seafood, any seafood that is not fried will work - steamed mussels, steamed clams, salmon filet etc.  If you hate seafood, a steak or the beef tartare is not that high calorie compared to a cheeseburger, especially if you eat it with a side of vegetables.

2.  If there is a dish that allows you to sub healthier options like fresh spinach for pasta (for example, the cioppino at one of my favorite places), I do that.

3.  Never, ever order anything with fries.  Always substitute some kind of vegetable even if it costs more (I like asparagus with my lobster roll, for example, instead of fries).

4.  If you're having dessert, split it with someone else.

5.  Do not order an app, an entree, AND a dessert - you only need one or max two of these at a sitting.

6.  Drinks.  Huge source of empty calories and can easily double your bill besides.  If you drink alcohol (guilty), then know what your lower calorie options are and stick to those if you must.  Wine, champagne or champagne cocktails (french 75, kir royale etc.), an old fashioned, etc.  You WILL gain weight if you are drinking margaritas or pina coladas with your meals, and it's just not worth it.  If you want something nonalcoholic other than plain water, a friend of mine orders sparkling water.

7.  Try to find a place that has at least one or two really good salads so you don't feel like you're sacrificing anything when you eat your vegetables.  There's a burger/hot dog joint near me that has a fantastic bibb lettuce salad with pears and candied walnuts and gorgonzola.  It's delicious and filling and nutritious.

8.  Basically, identify whatever is healthiest on the menu that you find delicious, and double down on that.  Order extra avocado on everything or add the prosciutto to the salad if that's what it takes to make something healthy even more delicious and more enticing to you than the cacio e pepe.