The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: EconDiva on May 08, 2017, 05:33:30 PM
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By 'do' I mean...find time for absolutely anything besides work.
I am seriously wanting to know this because this was my day today:
7:30 - Wake up..check work emails on phone to see if anything urgent. Brush teeth/wash face/shower
8:00 - Start working...I work from home
3:00 - Oh crap...haven't eaten yet...warm something up in microwave, go back to room and eat it while working (20 minutes)
7:30 pm - Oh crap...If I don't leave now I won't get to the gym in enough time for my 1.2 hour workout. Close a few emails out, get gym shoes, etc together, head out to gym
8:00 - 9:30 work out (not a full hour and a half but one hour of cardio and maybe 15 minutes of weights...trying to lose weight)
9:30 - Oh crap...what am I gonna eat tonight? Grab a Panera soup/salad
10:15 - Arrive home. Shower. Check a few emails, maybe answer a few or take care of a few minor work things.
11:00 - Oh crap...it sure is late to be eating. Let me have some me time now and eat.
11:30-12:30 - Try to get in some more work but brain is dead. Get a few last things done in between surfing the net and falling asleep at my laptop.
Ok so this isn't EXACTLY my day every day BUT...it's close. I mean, I can't afford to buy Panera every day obviously.
But my point is, I'm working from home now and still don't get how some families can fit in a commute, picking up the kids, cooking, cleaning, taking out the dog, helping the kids with homework, getting a workout in to stay healthy *and actually have a job*.
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Single mom to a 5 year old boy here.
5:30-5:45 get up, shower, prepare breakfast for kid, prepare his snacks (he eats lunch at school). Let the 2 dogs out one at a time as they no longer get along (in fact one passed away today breaking my heart)
6:50 wake up kid and feed him (dry my hair, etc while he is eating).
7:25-7:30 leave house (he needs to be at school by 7:45)
8:15ish get to work
4:30 leave work (i leave half an hour early due to a company relocation but it will change soon)
5ish pick up kid
5:15 get home (if no need to go grocery shopping)
5:15 let the dogs out
5:30 start cooking dinner
6-6:30 eat dinner
6:30-7:30 watch tv with son then he drinks his milk
7:30 bath time for son (every other day)
8 his bed time
8:30 i start dozing off
9:30-10 i go to bed
I usually do chores on the weekend. It is very tiring but i make it work. As my son gets older, he will be able to help more making it easier.
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It looks like you spent 8:00 am to 7:30 pm working?
That is almost 12 solid hours of work.
I work a traditional 8.5 hour day. 7:30-3:00. I have two children under 3. No pets. One husband. We cook most of our meals.
There are many chore shortcuts to keep us functional but not pinterest-worthy. We don't sleep as much as we'd like. And while the baby is under 6 months old, working out kind of doesn't happen (although we go for long walks almost every day before dinner).
My commute takes about 30 minutes/direction. Annoying waste of time, but it could be worse. You don't even have a commute!
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My day starts at 5:00. I have a half hour-45 min commute. It used to include daycare drop off (dh did pick-up). I work an 8 hour day. There is no "me" time, period. Cleaning and errands get done on weekends, including batch cooking for the upcoming week and keeping the freezer stocked.
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Your problem is obviously that you work too much. Stick to a normal workload and watch your life come back.
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You need to be more efficient with workouts. One day weights one day cardio or smoething like that. 1.5 hours for working out make no sense if the goal is weight loss and some strength building. Maybe your intensity is way to low.
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Umm, I don't work 12 hrs/day?
My fairly standard day for the past @12 yrs:
Up at 5:30-6. DH deals with kids in morning.
Workout days used to be drive to office @6:30, run, shower (at work), eat (brownbag), ready by 8ish. Now crossfit near home 6-7, commute, shower, eat, still ready by 8ish. Non-workout days: leave by 7, eat at office, again ready to go by 8ish.
Work 8ish until 4-4:30, leave for daycare pickup. (1-2 days/week my mom does pickup and I can work until 6-7).
Home by 5-5:30. Make dinner, kids do homework. Eat sometime between 6-7 when DH gets home.
7:00: supervise any remaining homework, requisite nags, dinner cleanup, etc. Do any necessary follow-up work (rare).
8:00: chill. Bed by 10-10:30.
Some weekend work, again rare. Standard workweek 40-45 hrs, sometimes 50. Less when kids were young and I was 80%.
Other things that help:
- Low standards. I prioritize fun over chores/cleaning/"shoulds."
- Paid help so we don't spend all weekend cleaning/mowing
- One kid activity at a time (harder now that they are older and baseball = 3 nights/week)
- Planning/cooking/all errands on weekends.
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Hah, well I have a 15-minute commute (including stopping at daycare) but definitely wouldn't dream of 1.5 hour workouts! Although even pre-kid I could never spend more than a half hour on exercising (unless I was off hiking)...
These days I mostly don't (exercise). I do still care about watching my figure so I've gradually adjusted my diet and calorie intake correspondingly as I've gotten older. I also have an evening alarm to squeeze in a bite-sized workout usually consisting of a few quick sets of light toning... and half the time I ignore it due to fatigue.
But, no matter what job I've been doing in life I've always made time for meals and mental breaks if not physical ones...
With kids it is harder to find time for other diversions I'm interested in like long hikes, tinkering in art and music, occasional concerts and restaurants, but when you have kids it's inevitable that some things will fall by the way side, at least for a few years.
When I was pregnant my sister told me, "yeah parenthood is this big tiring, life altering thing, but you kinda just do it"
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I do it by getting up really really early. Single mom, two kids.
0445 up and put the door by 0500. Workout for 60-90 minutes at work (20 minute drive). Most work days are 10 hours - but two of those days I have a couple hours of telework. On telework days I get a second workout in on my way home. I work four days per week and volunteer on the fifth day at my kids school and for a wounded warriors adaptive cyclist program.
Kids are home around four. Dinner, homework, telework, cleaning, etc. I make dinner from scratch most night. I'm pooped out by ten. Kids are settled before that. I sometimes order groceries online and I have a cleaner no lady come weekly to keep the house in order.
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Working 8-7:30 + extra emails before and after?
Yuck.
Do you make tons of money? If so, hire out things for convenience. Including lots of childcare. People who work super long hours, either their spouse stays home and handles everything, or if they both work that much they have both daycare and a nanny to cover all the hours.
If you don't make tons of money, I'd be looking for a different job.
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12+ hours of work, plus answering emails at a few other times during the day? Most people don't do that. I work 8.5 hours a day and don't think about work at all once I leave.
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By 'do' I mean...find time for absolutely anything besides work.
I am seriously wanting to know this because this was my day today:
7:30 - Wake up..check work emails on phone to see if anything urgent. Brush teeth/wash face/shower
8:00 - Start working...I work from home
3:00 - Oh crap...haven't eaten yet...warm something up in microwave, go back to room and eat it while working (20 minutes)
7:30 pm - Oh crap...If I don't leave now I won't get to the gym in enough time for my 1.2 hour workout. Close a few emails out, get gym shoes, etc together, head out to gym
8:00 - 9:30 work out (not a full hour and a half but one hour of cardio and maybe 15 minutes of weights...trying to lose weight)
9:30 - Oh crap...what am I gonna eat tonight? Grab a Panera soup/salad
10:15 - Arrive home. Shower. Check a few emails, maybe answer a few or take care of a few minor work things.
11:00 - Oh crap...it sure is late to be eating. Let me have some me time now and eat.
11:30-12:30 - Try to get in some more work but brain is dead. Get a few last things done in between surfing the net and falling asleep at my laptop.
Ok so this isn't EXACTLY my day every day BUT...it's close. I mean, I can't afford to buy Panera every day obviously.
But my point is, I'm working from home now and still don't get how some families can fit in a commute, picking up the kids, cooking, cleaning, taking out the dog, helping the kids with homework, getting a workout in to stay healthy *and actually have a job*.
If you can work a 12 hour day and make efficient use of those 12 hours day after day, more power to you. I couldn't do that on any prolonged basis. So I am going to speculate it is due to spending too much time goofing off at work when you could be working a shorter day. But if you say otherwise i'll take your work for it.
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I have a 3.5 year old and a 3 week old. I have the modern more-than-40 hours job, and my wife works significantly more than I do. We're still working on the routine for the 3 week old, but we had a pretty good routine for the eldest.
First off, I've become much better at setting boundaries at work than I used to. When I accepted my current job, I was up-front with my need to leave work at 4:30 every day. That doesn't mean I don't go back online later at night, or I don't ask my wife to cover daycare pickup when things get super busy. I do the same for her.
Interestingly, I'm actually better at my job after setting boundaries. I'm much better at saying "no" to the unimportant requests, which leaves me more time for things that are real priorities. My reviews over the last few years reflect this as well.
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I currently work 4 days/wk at my FT job. I also do one day on my side hustle (freelance writing/editing), but that's an easy day without much schedule.
Work days look like this:
7:15 am - Alarm goes off. Shower, get dressed, get kiddo up and dressed, pack my lunch, kiddo & I eat breakfast together
8:20 am - Leave for work
9:00am - 7:00 pm (with an hour for lunch most days) - Work.
7:45ish pm - Home from work. Eat dinner (husband cooks), spend time with kiddo, do one load of laundry, pay bills, do kiddo's bath/bedtime.
9:30 pm - Sit down on couch, talk to husband, check email, surface Facebook & MMM, etc.
10-11pm - Get ready for bed, put out clothes for next day, etc. (I aim for 10 but it ends up being 11.)
I really need to be exercising, but it isn't happening right now. I have a lot of excuses, but realistically I just need to be getting up at 6:30am to do the Beachbody workouts that a friend suckered me into buying.
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If I had to guess, your work is expanding to fill the available space. I was the same way pre-kid (we have a 2yo son). It's easy for that to happen when you don't feel urgency to clear space for other stuff- which often happens once a baby (or other compelling personal life demand) comes along.
You're so massively lucky that you work from home, assuming you're considering having kids. That's already a huge advantage for designing your lifestyle in a way that's family friendly. I'd guess that the trips to the gym, and 1.5+ hour workouts, will fall by the wayside if a baby is in the picture. Have you thought about a standing/ treadmill desk? Do you own home exercise equipment? Working out during my son's nap time (home elliptical, yoga, workout videos) was key for my sanity during my maternity leave.
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As one of my friends with 8 kids likes to say, same way as everybody else, we just do it more often
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Working 8-7:30 + extra emails before and after?
Yuck.
Do you make tons of money? If so, hire out things for convenience. Including lots of childcare. People who work super long hours, either their spouse stays home and handles everything, or if they both work that much they have both daycare and a nanny to cover all the hours.
If you don't make tons of money, I'd be looking for a different job.
I make 90k a year.
I don't have kids or a spouse. But this question had come up amongst myself and another friend recently who works a lot as well and is also single. We were wondering how families do it all...
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Your problem is obviously that you work too much. Stick to a normal workload and watch your life come back.
I guess I'm waiting for those that work similar jobs to chime in....?
Surely everyone here doesn't have a 9-5...
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It looks like you spent 8:00 am to 7:30 pm working?
That is almost 12 solid hours of work.
I work a traditional 8.5 hour day. 7:30-3:00. I have two children under 3. No pets. One husband. We cook most of our meals.
There are many chore shortcuts to keep us functional but not pinterest-worthy. We don't sleep as much as we'd like. And while the baby is under 6 months old, working out kind of doesn't happen (although we go for long walks almost every day before dinner).
My commute takes about 30 minutes/direction. Annoying waste of time, but it could be worse. You don't even have a commute!
Yeah I know....
I don't think I can do this forever. I just don't know how much longer to hold on. It's just the type of job where you're always 'on'. For instance I have an 8:00 pm meeting tomorrow. I have to host the meeting so I can't do other things during that time. Which means no evening workout or dinner with a friend or whatever. I host evening meetings 1-2 times a week.
Of course "hypothetically" I could work out earlier and have the flexibility to do something like go to lunch in the middle of the day if I liked since I work from home. My boss has mentioned I can be flexible with these sorts of things. The 'issue' is in real life, it's not that easy. My company is global and my work/emails don't ever stop as once the US starts shutting down, the people I work with on the other side of the world start waking up.
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Your problem is obviously that you work too much. Stick to a normal workload and watch your life come back.
What is 'normal' these days?
I would think a 40 hour work week was for people in certain jobs like nursing where you can 'turn off' once you leave work (I consider it a job where you're only 'on' while at work).
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You need to be more efficient with workouts. One day weights one day cardio or smoething like that. 1.5 hours for working out make no sense if the goal is weight loss and some strength building. Maybe your intensity is way to low.
As I mentioned it's not a full hour and a half.
For instance last night was 50 minutes cardio plus 15 minutes lifting. I did have to wait on one machine though. I'm probably eating too much. I get so hungry after workouts now after doing all that cardio.
I do agree my workouts aren't efficient enough. But I just feel less stressed after a long cardio session.
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My day starts at 5:00. I have a half hour-45 min commute. It used to include daycare drop off (dh did pick-up). I work an 8 hour day. There is no "me" time, period. Cleaning and errands get done on weekends, including batch cooking for the upcoming week and keeping the freezer stocked.
When does your day end?
Also you have to get in 'some' me time...right?
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Agreed with others - you're working yourself to death. That is the source of your other issues and needs to change asap.
Cardio workouts made me hungry and I end up eating more. Made it hard to lose weight, never mind the ridiculous length of workouts. I lost a lot by building up muscle with push-ups and pull-ups. Total workout time is about 5 min per day. Workout at home so you don't waste time commuting.
Even more important than the workouts is what and how much you eat. Try eating at set times and plan your meals in advance, even snacks.
I do know all of this in regards to the workouts...I think something about zoning out on cardio is therapeutic for me. Anyways as a 5 foot tall female without any other girlfriends who want to buddy up at the gym I get bogged down on cardio machines as it's what I'm used to. I'd love to do more free weights but I'm inexperienced. I mean, I went to the "men's section" to do squats last week and it was like the entire section stopped to watch. O.O I don't know if they thought I was gonna hurt myself or were just shocked to see a woman lifting or just a bit creepy but trust in that section of my gym as a female someone if not multiple people will just watch you lift. It creeps me out.
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The short answer is that most people compromise, and exercise is often the part that is given up. Other people work fewer hours (and sometimes realise that their output is the same) or work just as hard and rarely see their family. It's all about prioritisation.
What job do you have? Very few people genuinely need to be sending work emails at midnight.
Get up earlier. Lift the intensity of your workout and reduce the duration. Do it before work or at lunchtime. Find a closer gym or, even better, workout from home. That's just saved you a chunk of time each day.
Eat dinner at a more reasonable time, and then only log back in if absolutely necessary.
As a single person this really isn't that hard.
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I would think a 40 hour work week was for people in certain jobs like nursing where you can 'turn off' once you leave work.
I'm a lawyer. There's no "off" -- you just have to make your own "off." I block off @4-7 every day to get the kids, get dinner going, and eat dinner as a family (except when activities intervene); obviously, that doesn't happen every day, and I have backups, and backups for my backups, but my baseline is I do.not.work. during those three hours.
The secret is all in how you approach it. I have worked with people whose natural approach is "I will ask the client when they want to do something and adjust my own schedule to accommodate their convenience." My approach, OTOH, is to start with what works for me, and adjust only as necessary -- e.g., "I have a slot between 2-4 tomorrow, is that convenient for you?" The other key: you have "meetings" and "commitments" at those inconvenient times. No one needs to know what your "meeting" is. Yes, I do have clients and coworkers to whom I can say, hey, I have daycare pickup, can we do it before 5 or after 6? But with other people, the answer is just "I'm sorry, I have another meeting at 5, can we do it before then or after 6?"
Oh: and when I go to bed, the phone stays downstairs.
Tl;dr: If you think your job requires you to be "on" 24-7, your bosses and coworkers will be happy to oblige. Find a way to set boundaries and protect time to do what you value. No one can work 12-hr days endlessly without getting burned out. Kids or no.
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The short answer is that most people compromise, and exercise is often the part that is given up. Other people work fewer hours (and sometimes realise that their output is the same) or work just as hard and rarely see their family. It's all about prioritisation.
What job do you have? Very few people genuinely need to be sending work emails at midnight.
Get up earlier. Lift the intensity of your workout and reduce the duration. Do it before work or at lunchtime. Find a closer gym or, even better, workout from home. That's just saved you a chunk of time each day.
Eat dinner at a more reasonable time, and then only log back in if absolutely necessary.
As a single person this really isn't that hard.
I work in pharma. I 'manage' people by region but for some reason I've been assigned regions in 'and' outside of my time zones. For instance, I'm assigned management of US but also have Asia. So sometimes when I'm ready to start winding down Asia comes online with requests.
When I was newer to all this I had a cut off time and wouldn't respond to much after say 7 pm. But I noticed there were a few times when my boss would chime in late in the evening and say, "Since I see EconDiva hasn't addressed this with you yet, I will respond..." I felt it was a passive aggressive way of saying as long as I'm up I should be responding to emails.
Anyways, you're right. I need to make some adjustments. But I do think the job is still a bit too much 'on' and not enough 'off' for me.
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I get to the office at 5:30 AM 3 X a week to get a nice lift in before starting my day.
I tend to work from 8 AM - 5 PM and get home at 5:30......then I have ~5 hours every night to do whatever I want.
On the weekend I hit the gym either Saturday or Sunday morning, if I don't have anything fun planned that requires the whole weekend (travel, events, short day trips etc).
You have to set your own boundaries. If you chose to work 60-70 hours a week, then yes you won't have as much time to do other things.
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If you are expected to work a few hours in the evening, then why can't you take a two-three hour lunch break, exercise, and eat. Or take off from 4-7, then work again 7-10.
Your boss says you can take time during the day. So why don't you take it? Also the gym will be empty at 2 pm. Bonus!
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I work 8-5 and I am paid hourly, so the amount of times I work over that (not allowed to work overtime) is very limited. I make 47 plus 100% health for whole family and for me the work-life balance is a big factor in jobs I would consider. I highly value never having to check my email at home or worry overmuch on days off.
I wanted to chime in and point out that losing weight is overwhelmingly about your diet and not your exercise. Exercise is fantastic for health and can help with metabolism, but what you eat will always have more of an effect on net calories. I think what you need in life is more scheduling. You can still work 12 hours a day and feel better than you do now. Wake up at 6:30, do some bodyweight exercises and make yourself a healthy breakfast before showering or even looking at email. Work 7:30-12:30, then make lunch. Then work 1-6, workout and make dinner in a 2 hour break. Work 8-10, then take an hour to yourself with no phone before going to bed. And the longest anyone is going before getting a response is 2 hours/overnight.
I mean it's still not the work-life balance I would want, but it would give you time to prepare and eat healthier meals and still work the hours you need. I think you might want to look into books by some CEOs because you might be able to increase your efficiency, especially with emails.
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When I worked from home I simply set a timer every hour and took a 5 minute break. (shorter than most smokers I know). I could run laundry, make food to eat, or do some workouts like pull ups or push ups or w/e. I definitely could of started at 8 and lost myself till 3, but getting up to stretch and reset is shown to be good for getting back to tasks. The military even did research into how long people can sit and hone in on a lecture which is why they only do roughly 45 minutes before taking a 15 minute break. If you work from home and a boss messages or calls you because you stepped away for a minute, it's no different than a bathroom break.
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Do HIIT workouts from home. (High intensity interval training, short duration) I do benderfitness.com. But there's a ton out there. Definitely make healthy meals your priority.
I agree with setting alarms and honoring them. Yes you can be "on" all the time, but if you are taking a short break (15 minutes), that's still a prompt response, right? Or does it need to be really prompt? Can you set an autoresponder during your breaks that says "Thanks for your question, I'll get back to you at x:00"
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If you are expected to work a few hours in the evening, then why can't you take a two-three hour lunch break, exercise, and eat. Or take off from 4-7, then work again 7-10.
Your boss says you can take time during the day. So why don't you take it? Also the gym will be empty at 2 pm. Bonus!
Because it's busy during the day.
So this works in theory but the vast majority of the time there are other meetings and work to be done.
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+1 to everything Laura33 said.
You need to work on setting boundaries being more efficient with everything. Get up earlier. Get your workout out of the way first. Take breaks during your work day. If you have to have a late meeting or answer emails after hours then make up that time during the day. Set a time when you will no longer look or respond to email. If your boss expects you to be on 24/7, then it's time to start looking for a new boss because that is unreasonable.
I have a director level job making mid six figures. I could let my job take over my life if I didn't set boundaries and be extremely efficient when I am working. Married with two little kids, this is my typical day-
4:45 get up, put workout clothes on and pack lunches
5:30-6am- drink coffee and read, catch up on emails or have me time
6am-6:45- workout
6:45- 7:15 shower get ready
7:15-8am- drive 4 year old to preschool and commute to my office
8am-12- work
12-12:30- take walk on treadmill in office gym
12:30-4:45- work
4:45-6pm- pick up children at two different schools and commute home- working to find nanny for our house from 3-6 so that I can stop doing this
6-7pm- heat up dinner that I cooked on the weekend and eat, or some nights we have sports or boy scouts during this time
7pm-8:30- family time- NO SCREENS FOR ANYONE, then baths for children
8:30- tuck in children- SNUGGLES
8:30-9pm- try to have conversation with husband before passing out. maybe watch a show or read. or if it has been a horrid week, I'll log back on and do some work, but I try to keep this to an absolute minimum.
9-930ish asleep
Rinse and repeat. Someone once told me that this would be the "lost years". I believe they might be right.
I often work a couple hours really early on weekend mornings instead of working out. This is to clean up any loose ends, especially during budget time. I feel that if my job can't be done in say, 45 hours a week then there is a problem. Either I have to be more efficient or I need to work with my boss and team to adjust my work load. Sometimes it's as simple as negotiating a reasonable deadline for something or stopping work that isn't necessary.
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If you are expected to work a few hours in the evening, then why can't you take a two-three hour lunch break, exercise, and eat. Or take off from 4-7, then work again 7-10.
Your boss says you can take time during the day. So why don't you take it? Also the gym will be empty at 2 pm. Bonus!
Because it's busy during the day.
So this works in theory but the vast majority of the time there are other meetings and work to be done.
Can you evaluate the necessity of all the meetings. I work with one team that likes to meet about everything. I find them incredibly inefficient. I've stopped accepting many of their meeting requests for that reason.
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If you are expected to work a few hours in the evening, then why can't you take a two-three hour lunch break, exercise, and eat. Or take off from 4-7, then work again 7-10.
Your boss says you can take time during the day. So why don't you take it? Also the gym will be empty at 2 pm. Bonus!
Because it's busy during the day.
So this works in theory but the vast majority of the time there are other meetings and work to be done.
i think you have your answer in this thread plainly laid out... you're working too much. so you should get to the root cause of that.
1. is your work asking too much of you -
2. are you getting OT - if so great - i assume not - if so have them hire someone else b/c you're overloaded
3. are you inefficient at what is being asked of you? <- this more than anything is what i see in my field ... the people who are overworked are much less effiicient.
so the answer would be to work less - and i'd start figuring out how to do that sooner vs. later. whether its a new job or figuring out how to make your time more efficient or reducing your responsiblities. your life will get infinitely better regardless of having children or not.
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Look for a new job. You don't need to be working 12+ hour days for that kind of money.
My office has a standard 37.5 hour workweek. I rarely work more than 37.5 hours, and I'm good at my job so it gets done quickly. For a lot of jobs, if you can't fit the work into a 40 hour workweek, the company either needs to hire another head, or you aren't doing the job right. (For a lot of jobs... not all!) I do have a 45 minute (one way) commute, but it is worth it for the job and the pay ($92K). DH works part time and we have 2 kids. It can get hectic, and unlike feeding yourself, which you can put off and usually not affect anyone else, kids demand food at regular intervals.
If you aren't willing to get a new job, find ways to combine exercise and work time. You might be able to work from your laptop on a stationary bicycle, for instance.
My schedule can be irregular, because sometimes I get the kids ready for school, and sometimes DH does, but one of my days where I get a workout in looks like this:
6:15 wake up
6:30 drive to gym (which is halfway+ to work)
7:00 cycle class
8:15 drive to work
8:30-4:15 work
4:15-5 drive home
5-8 dinner and family time (kids are 5 & 8 and get essentially zero screen time)
8-11 clean up the house, prep for the next day, and relaxing time (dishes, pick up messes, lunches, school forms, some TV, reading, chatting with DH)
We are lucky in that our schedules allow for one of us to be home when the kids are home. We have done the daycare thing before and the day was gone by the time we got home with kids. That was hard.
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Something else to consider here is that although 90k sounds like an awesome income for a single person with no kids, your hourly rate right now very reflective of that. If you're working just M-F the way you described (so 60 hours) then you're making 28.8/hr. If you work 5 more hours on the weekend your'e making 26.6/hr and if you work 10 hours on the weekend you're making 24.7/hr.
My 47.5k over 40 hours is 22.8/hr. I could have seen myself working a job like yours while single, but I would have wanted to know an end date where I could transition to better hours, even if it meant taking a small salary cut.
Are there any more measured jobs in your field that you could plan to move into once you hit a certain saving threshold?
You just have to decide how much your time is worth to you.
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I got an app on my phone for a 7 minute workout. The full body workout is free but you have to purchase the other workouts on iPhone (android has more free options). I do three rounds twice a week at home but you could probably take small breaks during the day and spread it out through your workday. It's simple exercises like jumping jacks, squats, push-ups, crunches, etc. I can feel myself getting stronger and if I do several rounds, it gets my heart rate up too.
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+1 to what Laura33 said. You need to put boundaries between work and home. 90k for 60+ hours of work is not a very good hourly rate. I used to work a lot when single (I'm a computer engineer so I always have some coding or tinkering to do - it was also my hobby so I was happy with it) but once spouse and kids came into picture, I moved to a more reasonable work time. And I find that my efficiency is way better now than when I was working 50+ hours. Either get a huge raise to justify your working so long and hard or work on having systems in place when you are out. For example, what happens if you are out on vacation or out sick for a few weeks? Does your company stop operating or do they find others to get their queries resolved?
Also if your boss answers because you haven't or because you are not available post 7 pm, that's his/her call. He can do it and screw his work life balance. It doesn't mean you need to as well. Think about it.
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I don't doubt that you work hard and long hours, but I don't know anyone who works from home in front of a computer who doesn't spend some part of their day doing a little surfin. Heck, I'm at work right now and I've checked the boards twice today and it ain't 10am in my time zone yet.
If you can really work 8am to 3pm without taking enough time to grab a sandwich from your kitchen, then I admire your ability to focus exclusively on work. I know I'm not capable of that. Is it possible that you're taking a few side breaks to look around online (check MMM forums, cough cough ... ) perhaps even enough of these breaks throughout the day that when you add these up it is a sizeable amount of time? Honestly, I would be shocked if you didn't take some number of breaks.
When I do big writing projects, I use some apps/software that blocks the internet for X hours so I don't write a paragraph and then think "I sure deserve a break! I wonder if there is an update on my favorite MMM journal?" It also made me very aware of how often I take a 5 (or more!) minute break during the day to surf around a little. Perhaps it would be worth it to keep track of any breaks OR see if how long you can work without taking a break. I'd be surprised if you didn't find some leisure time in there.
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I work 12 hours, 3 days a week. DH stays home with the kiddo on those days, and I pretty much do nothing but work and sleep. On good days I get in a workout by biking to work. When I am on the early shifts the whole schedule is shifted 2 hours earlier. I used to do rotating nights so this is much better. The schedule is something like:
0530: wake up, drink coffee, pack lunch, get ready for work, maybe journal or do some light chores
0630: leave for work (leave at 0620 if biking)
0650: arrive at work
I get 2 30 minute breaks at around 0900 and 1400, I usually squeeze in a short walk after I eat
1900: leave work
1930: shower and eat (usually leftovers or frozen pizza)
2030: play with kiddo a little or watch TV
2200:bed
DH is great with the kiddo but not so good about house chores, so if I work 3 days in a row the whole place is a disaster. All chores, errands, cooking, and "me time " happen on my days off. Workouts usually consist of going running with my son in the stroller, or maybe a yoga video or some yard work while he naps. During the school year I work an additional 9 hours/ week at my side gig, plus time at home grading papers. I make about 90k/ year between both jobs.
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Is this your first professional job?
Either your boss is a jerk, or you are reading too much into his words. Email is an asynchronous medium. There should be no expectation of immediate response, and certainly no expectation of always-on at this paygrade.
Try working 9 to 5, then set aside 15 minutes every two hours to respond to emails until you go to bed, which gives you a more than reasonable SLA. And definitely incorporate some of your household tasks during your 9 to 5.
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If you are expected to work a few hours in the evening, then why can't you take a two-three hour lunch break, exercise, and eat. Or take off from 4-7, then work again 7-10.
Your boss says you can take time during the day. So why don't you take it? Also the gym will be empty at 2 pm. Bonus!
Because it's busy during the day.
So this works in theory but the vast majority of the time there are other meetings and work to be done.
Block it off on your calendar.
Figure out how to be more efficient.
Whatever. It's your life. If you like working 13 hours days, you do you. But it's really easy to change. You say no. You block time. Less important stuff either doesn't get done or gets passed on to others. The end.
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I work a fulltime job for $76k, but I have full autonomy and my workplace trusts me to get my work done no matter where or what time I do it. This translates into a lot of flexibility, ability to work from home a few times a week, leave the office early if work is done, leave office early and finish up work at home, etc.
I and DH have no children or pets, so it makes things easier.
7:30am - wake up
8:00 - catch bus to work
8:45 - get into office, start working
12:15 - realize I'm hungry, eat my brownbag lunch for 20 minutes, get bored and go back to work
12:45 - answer some emails
3:45 - catch a bus back home to avoid most of the traffic
4:10 - get home and usually answer 1 or 2 emails, then shut off the laptop and not think about work the rest of the night. Other nights I will do an hour or two of more work if needed at home, depends entirely on my workload. Usually its pretty chill though.
5:00 - DH and I do a workout (body weight exercise, running, etc)
6:00 - 3 days a week make bulk dinner, other nights this time is used for tinkering on personal projects, larger chores (laundry, cleaning kitchen, etc), or reading
7:00 - eat dinner
7:30 - clean up, then rest of the night is hanging out together, reading, etc
10:00 - start thinking about going to bed, do another quick sweep of the house and neaten things
So... I have like a 7 hour workday, so I essentially am working a 40 hr/wk job with just 35 hours per week, meaning my hourly pay is over $40. If I had a more intense job I would be completely wiped out and have no energy for things that I actually want to do. I have no interest in working more than 7 hours a day lol
I like to have a lot of relaxation time in the evening, and we make this work by having a "No TV on weeknights" rule, which we found sucked up a lot of our evening time. Now we have more time for hobbies and projects that interest us.
For chores, a lot of it is taken care of by another rule, "Go to bed with a neat house". So both DH and I pick things off the floor and put things away each night, meaning things don't have a chance to pile up. "Neat" doesn't mean "clean", the actual deep cleaning and scrubbing usually happens on the weekends.
I also work at a 24/7 international company and was worried about being pulled into meetings on my "off" hours. I got around this by keeping a lower rung on the hierarchy scale (but not on the pay scale, software companies are great like that) so I'm not a decision-maker, and I also physically put recurring "busy" meetings on my calendar after hours so no one reasonably tries to schedule stuff with me at that time. After 3 years of doing this everyone I work with knows my schedule so things have leveled out and no one even tries a late meeting with me, and this lack of "give a damn" hasn't translated to less responsibility given to me or my employer having less confidence in my work; just the opposite. I've been given higher pay raises and responsibility increases than expected, but I can still get it done in 35 hours. I love my job because it recognizes that I am a human with a life and I can organize my job around my life instead of my life around my job.
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My day is pretty scheduled. You make me laugh. And here's why:
1. I remember my best friend (when she was single), telling me she didn't have time to do laundry, much less cook.
2. I remember my good friend in DC's schedule, much like yours. Started with getting to work at 6:30 am to get parking, ended with eating dinner at 9 pm (takeout) in front of the TV
3. I remember my schedule when I was single. It involved:
- working 9 hours a day
- working out 1-2 hours a day
- playing in volleyball leagues 2-4 days a week
- taking classes 2 days a week
No wonder.
So, how do we do it?
1. It is extremely rare for me to work >40 hours a week. My husband does, but he gets a lot less sleep
2. Food prep on the weekend. I cook 2 big meals on the weekend, and in addition, spend a couple of hours washing and prepping fruit and veg.
3. Kids pretty much demand your attention, and they like to eat 3 meals, so you can't just ignore your hunger.
4. My workouts are short, and not every day. I probably swim or run 30-40 min 2x a week, do a long run (2 hours) once a week, and lift for 15 minutes once or twice a week. I walk 30 minutes on my lunch break.
Typical day:
4:40 am: alarm goes off. Wake up, do my morning stuff.
5:10 am: at the gym, waiting for it to open
5:30 am: gym open, go to pool, get my favorite lane. Swim 30-45 minutes.
6:30 am: back home. Spend 20 minutes packing 3 lunches. (Kid: fruit, raw veg, string cheese, sliced turkey. Me: salad, fruit salad, pasta. Hubs: salad, fruit salad, sandwich. He makes his own sandwich). Drink coffee, make toast and egg for breakfast. Eat.
7:20 am: leave for work
7:30 am until 3:15 or 4:30 pm (depends on if kid activity): work
3:15 pm: leave work. Go to school. Pick up kid. Go home, get him in uniform. Drop off at baseball at 4 pm. Go to preschool. Pick up younger kid. Back to baseball game.
5:00 pm - 6:40 pm. Take turns watching baseball and playing on playground with hubby.
6:40 pm: go home, make dinner so as to avoid takeout. Baseball not over yet. But I can prep and microwave a vegetable and cook up chicken or fish or quesadillas before hubby and big kid get home.
7:30 pm dinner done, do dishes.
8:00 pm, chill with kids
8:30 pm start bedtime for little kid (hubby does this)
9:00 pm my bedtime and big kids'.
If it is not a sports day, then I leave work at 4:30 pm, get home at 5:15 pm, chill a few minutes, prep dinner (usually a fresh veg and whatever leftovers from the weekend). Dinner at 6:15 pm, dishes at 6:45 pm, then more time to play with the kids, do some crocheting, whatever.
The hard part with kids is sick days, dr's appts, these make it literally impossible for me to work a full 40 hour week. My spouse can swing it, because he either does not exercise or gets a lot less sleep.
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It looks like you spent 8:00 am to 7:30 pm working?
That is almost 12 solid hours of work.
I work a traditional 8.5 hour day. 7:30-3:00. I have two children under 3. No pets. One husband. We cook most of our meals.
There are many chore shortcuts to keep us functional but not pinterest-worthy. We don't sleep as much as we'd like. And while the baby is under 6 months old, working out kind of doesn't happen (although we go for long walks almost every day before dinner).
My commute takes about 30 minutes/direction. Annoying waste of time, but it could be worse. You don't even have a commute!
Yeah I know....
I don't think I can do this forever. I just don't know how much longer to hold on. It's just the type of job where you're always 'on'. For instance I have an 8:00 pm meeting tomorrow. I have to host the meeting so I can't do other things during that time. Which means no evening workout or dinner with a friend or whatever. I host evening meetings 1-2 times a week.
Of course "hypothetically" I could work out earlier and have the flexibility to do something like go to lunch in the middle of the day if I liked since I work from home. My boss has mentioned I can be flexible with these sorts of things. The 'issue' is in real life, it's not that easy. My company is global and my work/emails don't ever stop as once the US starts shutting down, the people I work with on the other side of the world start waking up.
Here's the thing. If you left at 3 pm to go workout for 1.5 hours, and you don't have your laptop, it doesn't matter if people are sending you emails!
I worked 30 hrs/ week for awhile, and when my first kid was born, I adjusted my work hours to be 7 to 3:30. It was VERY VERY hard to leave that early, even though I'd already worked a full day. It takes discipline. It feels "weird". But you get used to it. (I trained the rest of my group to ask for things by 1 pm).
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It looks like you suck at feeding yourself. I find last minute carry out to be more of a time suck than cooking most meals. Do your entire meal plan on the weekend and stick to the schedule.
We have 3 under 3. The hours of 6am to 8pm are pretty kid-centric. I'm FT and my wife is PT. She does a great job of doing most house chores during her "days off", and weekends are for family time and projects. 8pm-6am is our time, we keep it sacred.
We make errands like grocery shopping fun (yay Costco!) No more gym workouts, we make exercise family friendly (yay bike trailers!)
As others said, you work too much, or too inefficiently?
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If you are expected to work a few hours in the evening, then why can't you take a two-three hour lunch break, exercise, and eat. Or take off from 4-7, then work again 7-10.
Your boss says you can take time during the day. So why don't you take it? Also the gym will be empty at 2 pm. Bonus!
Because it's busy during the day.
So this works in theory but the vast majority of the time there are other meetings and work to be done.
Work will always expand to fill the time you allow it to fill.
You *have* to set boundaries.
People with families usually learn this because kids are vocal, needy little buggers.
But plenty of single, kid-free people learn this too, at an early age. I've worked with plenty of people who pencil in days for a lunch time run, swim, volleyball game, lifting session. When training for a triathlon, I left for 2 hours once a week to swim in the ocean. I came in at 6 am on those days (you learn a lot about which shift workers are pulling their weight by doing that.)
If you worked less, and were maybe less stressed out, you might not need 50 minutes of cardio to de-stress.
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I make more than you but work a lot less. Wake up 6am, at work by 7:30am and home between 4 and 5. I usually eat lunch at my desk, but also do banking/online reading at that time too (and during conference calls too). I occasionally answer emails outside of my in-office time because I'm on the west coast and have a lot of east coast contacts. I work a mile from the office so I functionally have no commute (walk or ride my bike). I cook at home every night, but do most of the cleaning/laundry on the weekends. My husband stays home and home schools our kids, and I put them to bed every night.
Others have said this but the key thing that seems to be missing for you is setting boundaries. I think its very easy to fall into the trap that one must respond instantly, and if you set that benchmark as the norm then you can really pigeonhole yourself into feeling like you need to work constantly to meet those expectations. I'm successful in my job, and my underlying mantra is to under-promise and over-deliver. Sometimes urgent issues come up and I work longer/differently, but for the most part people know that they will get something from me ASAP and that's good enough.
If your employers expect you to work 12 hour days you need to be paid more.
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If you are expected to work a few hours in the evening, then why can't you take a two-three hour lunch break, exercise, and eat. Or take off from 4-7, then work again 7-10.
Your boss says you can take time during the day. So why don't you take it? Also the gym will be empty at 2 pm. Bonus!
Because it's busy during the day.
So this works in theory but the vast majority of the time there are other meetings and work to be done.
Can you evaluate the necessity of all the meetings. I work with one team that likes to meet about everything. I find them incredibly inefficient. I've stopped accepting many of their meeting requests for that reason.
No.
It's the culture. For instance, I've been doing the same 2 hour meeting every Monday for the past 3 years. Every.Single.Monday. At most I talk 10 minutes during these meetings.
When I was working on site, I couldn't work during those meetings as I'd be physically in the room with my boss and would get called out if I tried to multi-task; it obviously would come off as not paying attention although I was. It's part of the reason I went remote...so I could work during some of these meetings. Many of the meetings I am responsible to hold/run though.
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My day starts at 5:00. I have a half hour-45 min commute. It used to include daycare drop off (dh did pick-up). I work an 8 hour day. There is no "me" time, period. Cleaning and errands get done on weekends, including batch cooking for the upcoming week and keeping the freezer stocked.
When does your day end?
Also you have to get in 'some' me time...right?
After getting dinner on the table, cleaning up, most nights taking a kid to dance/music lessons/TKD. etc., maybe doing a little laundry or the like, I usually get to bed by 10-11.
I guess if you count me time as being able to read a bit while sitting at dance lessons, maybe. My kids are older now, so it's not nearly as bad. When I had to read to them and supervise homework it was fairly awful. But through junior high, no, I pretty much never had me time. And I'm fortunate in that my partner is also very involved with the kids, so while I was at dance with one, he was at TKD with the other. But he has lots of work he has to do at home at night.
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If you are expected to work a few hours in the evening, then why can't you take a two-three hour lunch break, exercise, and eat. Or take off from 4-7, then work again 7-10.
Your boss says you can take time during the day. So why don't you take it? Also the gym will be empty at 2 pm. Bonus!
Because it's busy during the day.
So this works in theory but the vast majority of the time there are other meetings and work to be done.
i think you have your answer in this thread plainly laid out... you're working too much. so you should get to the root cause of that.
1. is your work asking too much of you -
2. are you getting OT - if so great - i assume not - if so have them hire someone else b/c you're overloaded
3. are you inefficient at what is being asked of you? <- this more than anything is what i see in my field ... the people who are overworked are much less effiicient.
so the answer would be to work less - and i'd start figuring out how to do that sooner vs. later. whether its a new job or figuring out how to make your time more efficient or reducing your responsiblities. your life will get infinitely better regardless of having children or not.
RE #1 - sometimes, yes. For instance, we had a deadline last month we HAD to meet. Because I'm working closely with teams in Asia, I had to respond to urgent requests that came up during this time...I had several nights where I started working at 7/8 am but stayed up til 4 am because come bed time Asia started working and urgent requests that had to be responded to by me or else it would potentially mean us not meeting our deadline. Extreme case but an example nonetheless. Things like this have a domino effect as I got behind in my other major project putting in hours like this at the time and I'm still catching up from that.
RE #2 - No I don't get OT
RE #3 - Yes, I can be inefficient sometimes. I realize that although my boss actually begs to differ. I think when I am inefficient it is during times where I am trying to find a response to a question (a 'large' part of my work is being a resource/answering questions) but it is taking a LONG time. There is a balance between doing the research and learning/finding out the answer myself (which my boss praises) versus going to say my boss for the answer for instance which 'would' be more efficient because it would take less time however THAT would likely be seen as not taking enough initiative to figure things out on your own.
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If you are expected to work a few hours in the evening, then why can't you take a two-three hour lunch break, exercise, and eat. Or take off from 4-7, then work again 7-10.
Your boss says you can take time during the day. So why don't you take it? Also the gym will be empty at 2 pm. Bonus!
Because it's busy during the day.
So this works in theory but the vast majority of the time there are other meetings and work to be done.
i think you have your answer in this thread plainly laid out... you're working too much. so you should get to the root cause of that.
1. is your work asking too much of you -
2. are you getting OT - if so great - i assume not - if so have them hire someone else b/c you're overloaded
3. are you inefficient at what is being asked of you? <- this more than anything is what i see in my field ... the people who are overworked are much less effiicient.
so the answer would be to work less - and i'd start figuring out how to do that sooner vs. later. whether its a new job or figuring out how to make your time more efficient or reducing your responsiblities. your life will get infinitely better regardless of having children or not.
RE #1 - sometimes, yes. For instance, we had a deadline last month we HAD to meet. Because I'm working closely with teams in Asia, I had to respond to urgent requests that came up during this time...I had several nights where I started working at 7/8 am but stayed up til 4 am because come bed time Asia started working and urgent requests that had to be responded to by me or else it would potentially mean us not meeting our deadline. Extreme case but an example nonetheless. Things like this have a domino effect as I got behind in my other major project putting in hours like this at the time and I'm still catching up from that.
RE #2 - No I don't get OT
RE #3 - Yes, I can be inefficient sometimes. I realize that although my boss actually begs to differ. I think when I am inefficient it is during times where I am trying to find a response to a question (a 'large' part of my work is being a resource/answering questions) but it is taking a LONG time. There is a balance between doing the research and learning/finding out the answer myself (which my boss praises) versus going to say my boss for the answer for instance which 'would' be more efficient because it would take less time however THAT would likely be seen as not taking enough initiative to figure things out on your own.
so your job is the problem. find a new one.
the answer to your question is people with families dont DO what you're doing. or if they do they get paid way more or one person works. or they have a ton of hired help b/c well they get paid way more. i would question that you're assuming too much of what is asked of you is required. start pulling on that string and see what they say when you do a little less.
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12 hour days is not sustainable. Look for another job or even a transfer to a different team within the company. Learn to set boundaries. I've been working at large (and small) companies for over 20 years and here's the truth:
Companies will suck as much time/life from you as they can. It's up to you to push back and reduce your work level. Because they never will.
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12 hour days is not sustainable. Look for another job or even a transfer to a different team within the company. Learn to set boundaries. I've been working at large (and small) companies for over 20 years and here's the truth:
Companies will suck as much time/life from you as they can. It's up to you to push back and reduce your work level. Because they never will.
my company is very up front and you'll here management say this. we're employee owned. you gotta find your own balance. and you have to say nope thats too much. You're a grown individual.
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Look for a new job. You don't need to be working 12+ hour days for that kind of money.
My office has a standard 37.5 hour workweek. I rarely work more than 37.5 hours, and I'm good at my job so it gets done quickly. For a lot of jobs, if you can't fit the work into a 40 hour workweek, the company either needs to hire another head, or you aren't doing the job right. (For a lot of jobs... not all!) I do have a 45 minute (one way) commute, but it is worth it for the job and the pay ($92K). DH works part time and we have 2 kids. It can get hectic, and unlike feeding yourself, which you can put off and usually not affect anyone else, kids demand food at regular intervals.
If you aren't willing to get a new job, find ways to combine exercise and work time. You might be able to work from your laptop on a stationary bicycle, for instance.
My schedule can be irregular, because sometimes I get the kids ready for school, and sometimes DH does, but one of my days where I get a workout in looks like this:
6:15 wake up
6:30 drive to gym (which is halfway+ to work)
7:00 cycle class
8:15 drive to work
8:30-4:15 work
4:15-5 drive home
5-8 dinner and family time (kids are 5 & 8 and get essentially zero screen time)
8-11 clean up the house, prep for the next day, and relaxing time (dishes, pick up messes, lunches, school forms, some TV, reading, chatting with DH)
We are lucky in that our schedules allow for one of us to be home when the kids are home. We have done the daycare thing before and the day was gone by the time we got home with kids. That was hard.
It appears that you essentially have family time at home from 5 - 11 pm....that is really good.
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+1 to what Laura33 said. You need to put boundaries between work and home. 90k for 60+ hours of work is not a very good hourly rate. I used to work a lot when single (I'm a computer engineer so I always have some coding or tinkering to do - it was also my hobby so I was happy with it) but once spouse and kids came into picture, I moved to a more reasonable work time. And I find that my efficiency is way better now than when I was working 50+ hours. Either get a huge raise to justify your working so long and hard or work on having systems in place when you are out. For example, what happens if you are out on vacation or out sick for a few weeks? Does your company stop operating or do they find others to get their queries resolved?
Also if your boss answers because you haven't or because you are not available post 7 pm, that's his/her call. He can do it and screw his work life balance. It doesn't mean you need to as well. Think about it.
When I am out of the office, I change my Outlook email to state to contact me by phone if something is urgent and state that otherwise I will respond upon my return. We don't have a great backup system but my boss is in copy on a lot of things so she would probably either step in or ask someone else to help if she saw something come through while I was gone that I didn't get to. Honestly I've always had my laptop on every vacation I've taken since starting here as it's the norm here. So nothing has gone unresolved just because I'm out. I try not to work but I do still have to check emails as I simply would get buried if I didn't.
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I don't doubt that you work hard and long hours, but I don't know anyone who works from home in front of a computer who doesn't spend some part of their day doing a little surfin. Heck, I'm at work right now and I've checked the boards twice today and it ain't 10am in my time zone yet.
If you can really work 8am to 3pm without taking enough time to grab a sandwich from your kitchen, then I admire your ability to focus exclusively on work. I know I'm not capable of that. Is it possible that you're taking a few side breaks to look around online (check MMM forums, cough cough ... ) perhaps even enough of these breaks throughout the day that when you add these up it is a sizeable amount of time? Honestly, I would be shocked if you didn't take some number of breaks.
When I do big writing projects, I use some apps/software that blocks the internet for X hours so I don't write a paragraph and then think "I sure deserve a break! I wonder if there is an update on my favorite MMM journal?" It also made me very aware of how often I take a 5 (or more!) minute break during the day to surf around a little. Perhaps it would be worth it to keep track of any breaks OR see if how long you can work without taking a break. I'd be surprised if you didn't find some leisure time in there.
Guilty as charged (hence this thread). But it's not an every day thing though.
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12 hours a day is more than one person's workload. Why are you willing to take on and be responsible for more than your fair share?
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+1 to what Laura33 said. You need to put boundaries between work and home. 90k for 60+ hours of work is not a very good hourly rate. I used to work a lot when single (I'm a computer engineer so I always have some coding or tinkering to do - it was also my hobby so I was happy with it) but once spouse and kids came into picture, I moved to a more reasonable work time. And I find that my efficiency is way better now than when I was working 50+ hours. Either get a huge raise to justify your working so long and hard or work on having systems in place when you are out. For example, what happens if you are out on vacation or out sick for a few weeks? Does your company stop operating or do they find others to get their queries resolved?
Also if your boss answers because you haven't or because you are not available post 7 pm, that's his/her call. He can do it and screw his work life balance. It doesn't mean you need to as well. Think about it.
When I am out of the office, I change my Outlook email to state to contact me by phone if something is urgent and state that otherwise I will respond upon my return. We don't have a great backup system but my boss is in copy on a lot of things so she would probably either step in or ask someone else to help if she saw something come through while I was gone that I didn't get to. Honestly I've always had my laptop on every vacation I've taken since starting here as it's the norm here. So nothing has gone unresolved just because I'm out. I try not to work but I do still have to check emails as I simply would get buried if I didn't.
Ok, so do this even when you're not out of the office (no one will know!)
I recommend creating a block schedule for yourself. You say there's work all day, but pick a "slowish" time and block it off as "busy in a meeting" on your calendar, and set your email to that phone message.
Examples:
6 am: workout at home
7 am: make breakfast
8 am: work
9 am: 30 minutes responding to emails
9:30: work
12:30: set up your email to say you're out of the office
--get a load of laundry going
--put away yesterday's clean laundry
--wash dishes
--make a decent lunch
2:00: spend 30 minutes answering emails
2:30: work
5:00: set up email to say you're out
--random chores
--shower?
--make an awesome dinner
--do something fun for you
7:30: spend 30 minutes answering emails
8:00: set up email to say you're out
--go for a walk
9:00: go to bed early makes a man healthy wealthy and wise :D
OK, so that's just a random example. You can tweak it. But basically set up your ideal schedule and stick to it!
I turned off message notifications on my phone. I was really scared to do it, because what if someone couldn't contact me? My team picked it up pretty quickly and called with urgent stuff. I get more done because I'm concentrating and not being distracted by messages all the time.
Set yourself some boundaries. Make your ideal schedule. You are the only one who can make others respect your time. Figure out how to make yourself a rested, stress-free happy person and your employer will benefit.
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As others have said, set boundaries. Stop responding to emails after your workday is over. Check them if you want to, but don't reply. You're just conditioning folks to ask you questions because you always answer. Why can't those folks do the research and find the answer like you do?
Tell your team you will only answer emails in your off hours if they also call to bring them to your attention, otherwise you will answer at your earliest convenience. Tell your boss the same if she complains about a non-response in the evening.
If you are a supervisor, why can't you delegate the stupid meeting you have to host (I assume that means launching WebEx or some similar product) so you don't always have to attend (or can drop off after your 10 minute update)?
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As others have said, set boundaries. Stop responding to emails after your workday is over. Check them if you want to, but don't reply. You're just conditioning folks to ask you questions because you always answer. Why can't those folks do the research and find the answer like you do?
Tell your team you will only answer emails in your off hours if they also call to bring them to your attention, otherwise you will answer at your earliest convenience. Tell your boss the same if she complains about a non-response in the evening.
If you are a supervisor, why can't you delegate the stupid meeting you have to host (I assume that means launching WebEx or some similar product) so you don't always have to attend (or can drop off after your 10 minute update)?
Well, I'm not a supervisor or manager in the sense that I have no direct reports.
My job consists of holding a good deal of meetings to communicate things others have to do that actually don't report to me. But since we work in such a large Team environment it's my job to explain what needs to be done, in many cases how to do it, by when, and to make sure they do it.
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To try to sum things up: your hours are unreasonable for the money you are making. This could be due to one of two reasons:
1. Your employer is unreasonable, these are all real expectations, and if you don't meet them, you will be fired.
2. Your employer is reasonable and these are not real expectations, you just think they are. And, like every other employer, your boss will take as much as you are willing to give.
If the reason is #1, you need a new job. If the reason is #2, you need to start carving out time for yourself and training people *not* to expect an immediate response at 11:30 at night.
So why not start with option 2? If it turns out you're wrong and you get fired, well, see option 1 -- you needed a new job anyway.
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And if you need a new job, one of the beauties of MMM lifestyle is you're not living paycheck to paycheck (right??). So you can afford to take the time to find a better work solution.
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As others have said, set boundaries. Stop responding to emails after your workday is over. Check them if you want to, but don't reply. You're just conditioning folks to ask you questions because you always answer. Why can't those folks do the research and find the answer like you do?
Tell your team you will only answer emails in your off hours if they also call to bring them to your attention, otherwise you will answer at your earliest convenience. Tell your boss the same if she complains about a non-response in the evening.
If you are a supervisor, why can't you delegate the stupid meeting you have to host (I assume that means launching WebEx or some similar product) so you don't always have to attend (or can drop off after your 10 minute update)?
Well, I'm not a supervisor or manager in the sense that I have no direct reports.
My job consists of holding a good deal of meetings to communicate things others have to do that actually don't report to me. But since we work in such a large Team environment it's my job to explain what needs to be done, in many cases how to do it, by when, and to make sure they do it.
Sounds like your job is a project management type from the description you give. Have set hours that you can handle without burning out. I'm guessing you are in your late 20s, early 30s. You still have decades ahead of you. You don't want to burnout too early, do you? Let your boss pick up slack for anything that requires attention past 7 (6?). She'll realize how much you are working and either she'll split the work for two people to handle or give you a raise :) also, don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness.
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Look, I worked 10-12 hour days in my twenties (doing three jobs plus commute) and I got burnt out so badly that I never got my working mojo/ambition back.
It wasn't worth it.
I now have a reasonably well paid job (42/hr) which I do part time, though I have a full time workload (I guess they want to get the max out of me while they are paying me for 3 days only). 2.5 hour commute. At least I can read on the train and do all the housework and family related planning. I eat al desco and have a 30 min swim at lunchtime.
There is very little me time with a family. On my days off I have technically 5 hours to do the shopping,cooking,cleaning,laundry, which frees up the weekend for family time and travel. And of course the kids have activities those afternoons I have to drive them to. It gets better as they are a bit older and don't demand my physical presence all the time, so at least these days I can go to the loo alone. That is sheer luxury.. Right now, we have this 'leave mummy alone for 10 minutes after dinner' rule, just to give me a bit of space. Tragic, but true.
So, all I can say is, try to enjoy your life more while you don't have to look after a family. If you can't carve out more time for hobbies and entertainment you got the work life balance wrong and it has to be adjusted.
Is this job worth it? I would personally take a pay cut for a better work life balance and would find a job which doesn't take over my life completely. You don't have to do it. You can choose a better life. The best thing about this frugal living is that it gives us the freedem to not work 12 hour days. You don't have to work 12 hour days to live a decent lifestyle.
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I didn't have children so I have no clue what I'm talking about but would anyone here put off FIRE to hire a nanny at least part time? I'm exhausted just reading some of your schedules.
I can see why our great and dear leader didn't have children until after FIRE.
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I didn't have children so I have no clue what I'm talking about but would anyone here put off FIRE to hire a nanny at least part time? I'm exhausted just reading some of your schedules.
I can see why our great and dear leader didn't have children until after FIRE.
I have a mother's helper come every few days to help with chores around the house. We also have daycare (9-5) so we can both work. Still, we are hands on with kids because it is fun, though exhausting at times. Would cutting out the mother's helper accelerate FIRE? Yes by a month or two - not worth the effort. I guess you just do enough to not burn out or feel resentment for either spouse or for entire family. How you get there (nanny, mother's helper, cleaners, one/both going part time, SAHP) depends on your circumstances.
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I didn't have children so I have no clue what I'm talking about but would anyone here put off FIRE to hire a nanny at least part time? I'm exhausted just reading some of your schedules.
I can see why our great and dear leader didn't have children until after FIRE.
Lots of these schedules include full time daycare...but we are working during that time. It is indeed exhausting, but I'd be pretty sad to get any less time with my kids than I do already (they are in daycare about 45 hours/week).
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To try to sum things up: your hours are unreasonable for the money you are making. This could be due to one of two reasons:
1. Your employer is unreasonable, these are all real expectations, and if you don't meet them, you will be fired.
2. Your employer is reasonable and these are not real expectations, you just think they are. And, like every other employer, your boss will take as much as you are willing to give.
If the reason is #1, you need a new job. If the reason is #2, you need to start carving out time for yourself and training people *not* to expect an immediate response at 11:30 at night.
So why not start with option 2? If it turns out you're wrong and you get fired, well, see option 1 -- you needed a new job anyway.
There is a #3, which is that you are doing these hours now in the expectation that you will be paid significantly more in later years. It's the standard IB / law trade-off.
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As others have said, set boundaries. Stop responding to emails after your workday is over. Check them if you want to, but don't reply. You're just conditioning folks to ask you questions because you always answer. Why can't those folks do the research and find the answer like you do?
Tell your team you will only answer emails in your off hours if they also call to bring them to your attention, otherwise you will answer at your earliest convenience. Tell your boss the same if she complains about a non-response in the evening.
If you are a supervisor, why can't you delegate the stupid meeting you have to host (I assume that means launching WebEx or some similar product) so you don't always have to attend (or can drop off after your 10 minute update)?
Well, I'm not a supervisor or manager in the sense that I have no direct reports.
My job consists of holding a good deal of meetings to communicate things others have to do that actually don't report to me. But since we work in such a large Team environment it's my job to explain what needs to be done, in many cases how to do it, by when, and to make sure they do it.
Sounds like your job is a project management type from the description you give. Have set hours that you can handle without burning out. I'm guessing you are in your late 20s, early 30s. You still have decades ahead of you. You don't want to burnout too early, do you? Let your boss pick up slack for anything that requires attention past 7 (6?). She'll realize how much you are working and either she'll split the work for two people to handle or give you a raise :) also, don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness.
Yes...I'm in a project management role.
I agree with others that I need to incorporate better efficiencies. The 'challenge' with hours is that, as I mentioned, I'm covering a team in the US but I'm also covering a team in Australia, a team in New Zealand and a team in Japan. Those teams start their day as I'm ending mine and I obviously can't stay up all night and work 'with' them on their hours but it means my meetings with them are in the evenings and occasionally things pop up I should respond to if I see before going to bed basically.
I'm in my late 30s.
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The 'challenge' with hours is that, as I mentioned, I'm covering a team in the US but I'm also covering a team in Australia, a team in New Zealand and a team in Japan. Those teams start their day as I'm ending mine and I obviously can't stay up all night and work 'with' them on their hours but it means my meetings with them are in the evenings and occasionally things pop up I should respond to if I see before going to bed basically.
Would it help if you thought of your job as a split shift? E.g., make sure you are available for the first and last hour or two of each area's workday (unless that is middle of the night), and schedule the mandatory catch-up meetings then. Then train people that the time in-between is your quiet work time to research and answer the questions they have asked (and carve out time for you in the middle of the day, when it is mid-shift for everyone). So maybe you work, say, 7-11 AM, to cover COB in Asia and opening hours here; then break from 11-2 for you-time (which covers US lunchtime anyway), then work again 2-6, break for dinner, and hop back on for another hour or two before bed to make sure Asia is up and running.
FWIW, managing people's expectations, and retraining people to wait, is really really hard -- especially when you enjoy being responsive; you almost need to retrain yourself more than them. But I can tell you that people do adjust. I have a similar issue in that my job has two parts, one of which involves answering longer-term client questions, and the other of which involves frequent interruptions for quick internal questions; I find it very easy to get distracted by the latter, and then not make the progress I need on the former. So I started looking at my calendar for the week and blocking out periods every day to work on the short-term internal questions; the rest of the time I focus on the other part of my job. Sure, there are times that doesn't work, but, you know, 90% of the time it's just fine.
The irony: in the end, the change was harder on *me* than on the people who were calling me. They were fine -- *I* was the one who felt like I was going through withdrawal, not having that excitement of jumping on the urgent thing. Turns out the people I was blaming for my problems didn't actually require me quite as instantly as I thought they did. So if what you are doing now isn't working for you any more, it may be worth trying something else.
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Yes...I'm in a project management role.
I agree with others that I need to incorporate better efficiencies. The 'challenge' with hours is that, as I mentioned, I'm covering a team in the US but I'm also covering a team in Australia, a team in New Zealand and a team in Japan. Those teams start their day as I'm ending mine and I obviously can't stay up all night and work 'with' them on their hours but it means my meetings with them are in the evenings and occasionally things pop up I should respond to if I see before going to bed basically.
I'm in my late 30s.
Another PM here... (late 40's no kids, always wonder how people with families do it...)
I have nothing more to add then what the others are saying. As I read this thread, I thought wow, must be a PM...
Just glad to read I am not the only one who exists in that type of role. Most PM's publicly go on about how much they "thrive" on this lifestyle...
Thank you for posting this.
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Here's the thing. My take is that you're doing a lot of what you're doing out of a general sense of obligation (""it has to get done...if I don't do it, who will?") and a strong but latent desire to impress your boss (see all the comments you've made about how your boss basically loves you). I was the same way. But somewhere along the way I realized that I was basically choosing to spend time impressing my bosses (partners I worked with at my law firm) rather than the MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE IN MY LIFE (my husband, other family members, and eventually my son). Realizing that made it a whole lot easier to start putting up boundaries and dictating my own schedule. I feel like you're being taken advantage of (and enabling that) because you're not putting your foot down or protecting your personal time. I didn't see where you said what your salary was but if it's less than 200-300k, or you're not saving impoverished children or something intrinsically worthwhile, this schedule is NOT worth it. No way. Nope. Ultimately it's up to you to decide how you want to spend your time. If you decide to have kids, I guarantee you'll start putting up those boundaries.
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I didn't have children so I have no clue what I'm talking about but would anyone here put off FIRE to hire a nanny at least part time? I'm exhausted just reading some of your schedules.
We thought about it. Honestly, during the busy times, trying to juggle three schedules (me, DH, my mom) to make sure someone gets daycare pickup every day can be exhausting in and of itself.
But the reality is that I liked being at 80% -- I liked having my default schedule be "leave at 4 and make dinner and have dinner together"; I liked having that extra time at home with my family and my kids. Having a nanny would have required me to go full-time to pay for it and not get home until 6:30-7 every night; more work and less family time would have taken things in the wrong direction.
I guess I never thought of the idea of "stay at 80% but save less" -- at the time, we were saving only maybe 20% anyway, and there was no way I was going to cut that back for something I didn't truly need. When things got really tough, I gave on other things instead (cooking less, exercising less, etc.).
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1. read the 4 hour work week
2. if you can't make your current situation better, look for another job. 90k isn't bad, but it sure isn't worth it for the hours you're putting in. you are not actually making as much as you think if you break it down to an hourly rate.
3. you get to work from home, which is a nice perk, the next step is to find ways to cut and become more efficient. If you find it is not possible, find something else.
Good luck
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Here's the thing. My take is that you're doing a lot of what you're doing out of a general sense of obligation (""it has to get done...if I don't do it, who will?") and a strong but latent desire to impress your boss (see all the comments you've made about how your boss basically loves you). I was the same way. But somewhere along the way I realized that I was basically choosing to spend time impressing my bosses (partners I worked with at my law firm) rather than the MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE IN MY LIFE (my husband, other family members, and eventually my son). Realizing that made it a whole lot easier to start putting up boundaries and dictating my own schedule. I feel like you're being taken advantage of (and enabling that) because you're not putting your foot down or protecting your personal time. I didn't see where you said what your salary was but if it's less than 200-300k, or you're not saving impoverished children or something intrinsically worthwhile, this schedule is NOT worth it. No way. Nope. Ultimately it's up to you to decide how you want to spend your time. If you decide to have kids, I guarantee you'll start putting up those boundaries.
Good post and good summary of many of the things that have been said here.
My salary is 90K base with a small annual bonus.
There is a reason I posted this...I moved back home to a different state to work from home to gain more work/life balance. I felt lucky/grateful my employer allowed me to do this. However, I don't have much more work/life balance. I mentioned in another posting that I was having this discussion with another friend of mine. However, he is male. Same age, a little more responsibility in his role than in mine. But like me he is also single without children and working on changing that soon. We were both talking about how we have no clue how families can get anything done outside of work.
I'm in a fairly new relationship with a person I absolutely adore but it's long distance now. Anyways, sometimes my mind wonders about the future and how I can be a good girlfriend/wife/daughter/friend/etc. when I am spending so much time working. I often wonder if my salary, which is the most I've ever had, is even worth it. It's hard thinking that as I worked pretty hard just to get here.
Sometimes I think I should test the waters somewhere else. Now that's I've got several years under my belt here I'm hearing there are other companies that have a better balance for their employees but....I just don't know. If the issue is more on my end and not setting enough boundaries, it 'may' be worth staying here. I really need to do more self reflection and figure that out. But I am surrounded at work by so many people who just 'seem' to work SO much...I've never seen anything like it. As an example, I'm mentoring a 23 year old who was just thrown into a role a bit bigger than she should have been given and she's been up working through 2 am very frequently (as in at about half her working days) for the past 2 weeks. I have brought this to my boss's attention and she says resourcing changes will be made 'at some point soon' so she's not 'drowning'....but to me this is an immediate issue that needs addressing as I just don't think it's acceptable. Working like this sets a precedence. My boss works on all her vacations, so we tend to bring our laptops on vacations too....'just in case'. It's the nature of the role that is very hard to get away from because it's also built into the culture...everyone wants everything done now now now NOW. We just had a Team member taken off of my Team because my boss felt she didn't work/respond to items fast enough. So on one hand there is all this talk about work/life balance but on the other hand...you can start disappearing for a set number of hours each day if you want...not everyone is going to be okay with that and I guess perhaps this may vary based on who you report to. So that brings up the issue of whether maybe some of my self imposed obligations are based on my need to stay on boss's good side...who happens to be on the good side of some of the most influential people in my area.
You stated I'm basically choosing to prioritize my job over more important things...I basically agree. It's what is starting to bother me and why I am questioning if others are able to prioritize those people/things they love in their life *and* their job. Thank you to those who have posted/shared their schedules, jobs, family dynamics/stories. It is very helpful/insight to see how people's daily lives are being run. Basically, I have started to 'look further into the future' and I recognize I can't have important hobbies and be a good girlfriend or wife or friend or whatever AND continue to work the way I do now. It's not possible. (Just 10 minutes ago I got invited out to a dinner with a friend. She lives 30 minutes from me and I haven't seen her since I've moved back 2 months ago. I had to decline because....I have an 8 pm meeting.)
I think this thread is insightful and important because I understand that part of the MMM philosophy is about being able to prioritize those things that are 'really' most important in your life and realizing that it's not usually a bunch of material things or the money that buys those material things...it's the people and activities and experiences in life. If I can live my life in such a way that I am able to have enough time to enjoy those people and experiences I love only then will I truly be happy. I understand all of that...I get it. I just need to figure out how to do it because I am realizing now that I've gotten a 'decent' paying job for perhaps the first time in life, I also can't let it just take over all of the other important things that truly bring joy into my life.
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12 hours a day is more than one person's workload. Why are you willing to take on and be responsible for more than your fair share?
Well it's not quite that simple. I'm not sure if you read the entire thread but I'm salaried. Many salaried people don't have 9-5 jobs.
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12 hours a day is more than one person's workload. Why are you willing to take on and be responsible for more than your fair share?
Well it's not quite that simple. I'm not sure if you read the entire thread but I'm salaried. Many salaried people don't have 9-5 jobs.
The problem really seems to be your boss and his/her expectations.
I believe that most if not all of the people who posted on this thread are salaried, and we are ALL saying we don't work that much.
Someone has fed you a line of bullshit and you've bought it. As I said before, I make more than you and work WAY less. Yes I'm salaried.
You need to start setting some boundaries and pushing back in your current position, and if it doesn't work then that answers your question about if you need to work somewhere else.
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I had a similar issue at my first real job. Went into public accounting, had my email connected to my phone, and during tax season I was always "on." The problem is, they then came to expect that (or at least I perceived that they expected it). It would have been incredibly difficult for me to change that while staying at the same place.
When I changed jobs, I was very deliberate in setting expectations and boundaries. I now do not check email outside of office hours, or do work outside of office hours except in very special circumstances. This will be harder for you since you work at home.
All this to say, if you want a good work-life balance, you may need to look for a new position.
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I had a similar issue at my first real job. Went into public accounting, had my email connected to my phone, and during tax season I was always "on." The problem is, they then came to expect that (or at least I perceived that they expected it). It would have been incredibly difficult for me to change that while staying at the same place.
When I changed jobs, I was very deliberate in setting expectations and boundaries. I now do not check email outside of office hours, or do work outside of office hours except in very special circumstances. This will be harder for you since you work at home.
All this to say, if you want a good work-life balance, you may need to look for a new position.
Public accounting is totally known for this. It's totally churn and burn. Or entice them with the ever elusive partner track.
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If the culture demands 12 hour work days then you just need to find a new job. I would never work 12 hours a day, there are plenty of jobs that don't require that.
When I got a promotion all the sudden my hours went from 40 to 50 then 50 to 60 and soon I realized my company would let me work as much as I was willing to, and I'd never run out of work. I immediately dialed it back to 45 hours a week. That was 5 years ago and I have NEVER been told to work more. Many people at my company work long hours and some of them wear it as a badge of honor. It's just not necessary in most places (but not all places). I work from home too. I shut my computer off at 5pm and stop checking emails. My team knows if it's a real emergency they can call me and I'll work, but that rarely happens. I almost never think about work after 5pm. It's worth noting it took me about a year to be okay with this and not feel guilty.
Same thing happened to my wife at her new job. She said the culture is to answer emails all night and it's required. I pushed her to stop doing it and she fought back at first. But after about six months of doing it she stopped the night time emails. Nobody has said a word, and that was a year ago.
Your company may be one of the ones that demands it. If that's the case then you need to look elsewhere. If you do a good job for those 40 hours I think most places want to keep a great employee that does a good 40 hours of work. Most studies say that's about all the brain is good for anyways, productivity goes way down after that.
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+1 to what Laura33 said. You need to put boundaries between work and home. 90k for 60+ hours of work is not a very good hourly rate. I used to work a lot when single (I'm a computer engineer so I always have some coding or tinkering to do - it was also my hobby so I was happy with it) but once spouse and kids came into picture, I moved to a more reasonable work time. And I find that my efficiency is way better now than when I was working 50+ hours. Either get a huge raise to justify your working so long and hard or work on having systems in place when you are out. For example, what happens if you are out on vacation or out sick for a few weeks? Does your company stop operating or do they find others to get their queries resolved?
Also if your boss answers because you haven't or because you are not available post 7 pm, that's his/her call. He can do it and screw his work life balance. It doesn't mean you need to as well. Think about it.
When I am out of the office, I change my Outlook email to state to contact me by phone if something is urgent and state that otherwise I will respond upon my return. We don't have a great backup system but my boss is in copy on a lot of things so she would probably either step in or ask someone else to help if she saw something come through while I was gone that I didn't get to. Honestly I've always had my laptop on every vacation I've taken since starting here as it's the norm here. So nothing has gone unresolved just because I'm out. I try not to work but I do still have to check emails as I simply would get buried if I didn't.
Ok, so do this even when you're not out of the office (no one will know!)
I recommend creating a block schedule for yourself. You say there's work all day, but pick a "slowish" time and block it off as "busy in a meeting" on your calendar, and set your email to that phone message.
Examples:
6 am: workout at home
7 am: make breakfast
8 am: work
9 am: 30 minutes responding to emails
9:30: work
12:30: set up your email to say you're out of the office
--get a load of laundry going
--put away yesterday's clean laundry
--wash dishes
--make a decent lunch
2:00: spend 30 minutes answering emails
2:30: work
5:00: set up email to say you're out
--random chores
--shower?
--make an awesome dinner
--do something fun for you
7:30: spend 30 minutes answering emails
8:00: set up email to say you're out
--go for a walk
9:00: go to bed early makes a man healthy wealthy and wise :D
OK, so that's just a random example. You can tweak it. But basically set up your ideal schedule and stick to it!
I turned off message notifications on my phone. I was really scared to do it, because what if someone couldn't contact me? My team picked it up pretty quickly and called with urgent stuff. I get more done because I'm concentrating and not being distracted by messages all the time.
Set yourself some boundaries. Make your ideal schedule. You are the only one who can make others respect your time. Figure out how to make yourself a rested, stress-free happy person and your employer will benefit.
I appreciate the suggestion. I really do. I can tell you though my boss would have a fit at this. Changing my email to state out of office during "normal business hours" would not fly unless I'm taking (vacation) time off.
Let me give a small example of how things can be just a tad bit unreasonable in my line of work:
I have a friend, she used to work on my Team in Europe. She was brilliant...a PhD, could easily do my boss's job. She worked from home 100% of the time. To make long story short my boss somehow had a hunch she wasn't always working from home in her 'actual' home. She was right...ended up asking and found out the coworker was working in her mother's house an hour away from her own home a few days a week. She was doing this as her mom was extremely sick and in/out of the hospital so it for a few weeks it made it easier to be there sometimes in case something happened.
The colleague wasn't underperforming, never missed a meeting...she was working as usual. Still being 'on' til late hours like everyone else. However, my boss told on her about this and mentioned to me how bad it made the colleague look and how my boss's boss said she should have taken a medical leave of absence. The colleague got reprimanded for it actually. I couldn't believe they'd rather her leave her job and put more work on others simply because they found out the 'home' she was working from wasn't her usual home location occasionally. She's since gone now successfully working for her own company and occasionally contracting for other companies.
Anyway...my point being is the company isn't as flexible as they like to say they are. And I think this somewhat dependable on who you report to/who they report to/etc. I just know this suggestion of blocking off time during the day each day or even most day would not be acceptable to my boss. (I'm actually a bit lower on the totem pole here so it would be hard to do as I have a good bit of meetings to attend during the day. Plenty of days with 2-4 hours worth of meetings. They wouldn't change these for me and it's not an option to not attend fyi.)
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12 hours a day is more than one person's workload. Why are you willing to take on and be responsible for more than your fair share?
Well it's not quite that simple. I'm not sure if you read the entire thread but I'm salaried. Many salaried people don't have 9-5 jobs.
Seems like you just refuse to accept that 12 hours a day is unusual, salaried or not. It really is. I've spent a career making near or over 6 figures, working with lots of people who are deep into 6 figures, and none of them worked 10 or 12 hours a day consistently. Only at crunch times.
You. Don't. Have. To. Do. It.
Free yourself!
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12+ hours of work, plus answering emails at a few other times during the day? Most people don't do that. I work 8.5 hours a day and don't think about work at all once I leave.
Are you hourly?
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12 hours a day is more than one person's workload. Why are you willing to take on and be responsible for more than your fair share?
Well it's not quite that simple. I'm not sure if you read the entire thread but I'm salaried. Many salaried people don't have 9-5 jobs.
I don't think you're quite getting that just because you're salaried does not mean you have to work 24/7. I am salaried. I work 7-3:30. Occasionally a big issue comes up that I work a couple extra hours, but I don't work 12 hours a day all week.
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12+ hours of work, plus answering emails at a few other times during the day? Most people don't do that. I work 8.5 hours a day and don't think about work at all once I leave.
Are you hourly?
i think you have your answers and steps to mitigate whats happening. if you just wanted a place to vent ok. but i think we've isolated the issue now its up to you to make an action.
and quit the hourly vs salaried thing this thinking has probably put you in the position you're in .. i'm salaried i work 7 to 4 daily. and make quite a bit more than what you do and when i leave 99% of the time i dont think or do work.
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The only time I put in such long hours was when I was a contract engineer (still salaried, but had to account for all of my hours to charge back to the client). In 2005 - 2007 we were forced by the company into over time (10 extra hours per week paid, but no extra benefits). Funny thing was, lots of folks left the company during that time because they realized they could make just as much, if not more at another job working a standard 40. Maybe this is you - if you are that valuable to the company that they need 12 hours/day out of you then shop yourself around a bit (both inside and outside the company). You may be pleasantly surprised to find yourself working less and being paid more, or at least being better compensated for your outlandish work hours.
I honestly shake my head in dismay recalling those years from 2003 (our first child) to 2005 (second child, single income family with me gone all the time) up to 2007 when I was at the end of my rope. It worked out fine in hindsight, even with the stock market crashing in 2008. Don't put up with a situation that is making you miserable, you'll just burn yourself out and could start having issues in your 40's if you aren't prioritizing health and social life outside work.
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12 hours a day is more than one person's workload. Why are you willing to take on and be responsible for more than your fair share?
Well it's not quite that simple. I'm not sure if you read the entire thread but I'm salaried. Many salaried people don't have 9-5 jobs.
I don't think you're quite getting that just because you're salaried does not mean you have to work 24/7. I am salaried. I work 7-3:30. Occasionally a big issue comes up that I work a couple extra hours, but I don't work 12 hours a day all week.
I'm also salaried and don't work as much as you are (and make more than you do). I had work-life balance issues when I first left grad school (where I was used to working 12 hours a day on my research, teaching, grading, etc.) and its hard to pull back from. If these are truly the hours expected by your company I would seek another position. As someone mentioned up thread, try dialing it back first. Good luck.
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I always worked 10-12 hour days plus usually a little on Saturday, however my wife didn't work and stayed home to raise the kids full time. The long hours didn't bother me too much, as that's the way I was raised and I was self employed so the extra effort benefited me personally. Continued to work 10 hour days up until retirement last fall. Long days are kind of the culture in the construction industry, "make hay when the sun shines".
One thing I never did was take business phone calls and emails during my off hours unless it was a serious emergency. I see many friends that are constantly interrupted during their free time with this stuff. I think that is ridiculous and also somewhat rude to have your phone ringing and taking calls when you are supposed to be doing "fun things" with others.
If you work those kind of hours it's also important to utilize your vacation time to decompress and get away from things for a while.
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12 hours a day is more than one person's workload. Why are you willing to take on and be responsible for more than your fair share?
Well it's not quite that simple. I'm not sure if you read the entire thread but I'm salaried. Many salaried people don't have 9-5 jobs.
I don't think you're quite getting that just because you're salaried does not mean you have to work 24/7. I am salaried. I work 7-3:30. Occasionally a big issue comes up that I work a couple extra hours, but I don't work 12 hours a day all week.
Right...based on my thread you can understand why. That's not my life or the lives of those I'm working with every day so I haven't been seeing that.
So honestly I've just been chugging along for a while now assuming this is just how life is for the vast majority of salaried people with a decent job earning a decent income. I mean this thread literally is showing me it's not the case for many.
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Yes...I'm in a project management role.
I agree with others that I need to incorporate better efficiencies. The 'challenge' with hours is that, as I mentioned, I'm covering a team in the US but I'm also covering a team in Australia, a team in New Zealand and a team in Japan. Those teams start their day as I'm ending mine and I obviously can't stay up all night and work 'with' them on their hours but it means my meetings with them are in the evenings and occasionally things pop up I should respond to if I see before going to bed basically.
I'm in my late 30s.
Another PM here... (late 40's no kids, always wonder how people with families do it...)
I have nothing more to add then what the others are saying. As I read this thread, I thought wow, must be a PM...
Just glad to read I am not the only one who exists in that type of role. Most PM's publicly go on about how much they "thrive" on this lifestyle...
Thank you for posting this.
I am glad you got something out of this thread!
I don't know if you thrive in your role but I don't. But I work around many many people who 'live to work'.
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Let me give a small example of how things can be just a tad bit unreasonable in my line of work:
I have a friend, she used to work on my Team in Europe. She was brilliant...a PhD, could easily do my boss's job. She worked from home 100% of the time. To make long story short my boss somehow had a hunch she wasn't always working from home in her 'actual' home. She was right...ended up asking and found out the coworker was working in her mother's house an hour away from her own home a few days a week. She was doing this as her mom was extremely sick and in/out of the hospital so it for a few weeks it made it easier to be there sometimes in case something happened.
The colleague wasn't underperforming, never missed a meeting...she was working as usual. Still being 'on' til late hours like everyone else. However, my boss told on her about this and mentioned to me how bad it made the colleague look and how my boss's boss said she should have taken a medical leave of absence. The colleague got reprimanded for it actually.
OK, how can I say this in words that are strong enough: your boss is a doink lunatic raging asshole toxic subhuman abuser. This is not a reasonable response in any way, shape, or form. You deserve better than working for someone like that.
It is not your "line of work" that is unreasonable, it is your specific boss/employer. You are in a toxic environment that will wear you down, chew you up, spit you out, and replace you with Widget #6732. GTFO.
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I have a personal rule-
I don't work for people that talk about my coworkers with me. It is so unprofessional. And it usually indicates that they are or will talk about you to your coworkers. That's what I call a bad boss.
I agree with others- GTFO.
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+1 to what beancounter said. Boss talking about co-worker to you is an indication they'll talk about you to others. It's a toxic environment. You have years of experience under your belt now. Start looking for another job and get out of that place before things get worse.
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You might benefit from reading Dr. Doom's Job Experience series, especially the part working with Chthulu. https://livingafi.com/2014/06/13/the-job-experience-tech-support-year-1/ (https://livingafi.com/2014/06/13/the-job-experience-tech-support-year-1/)
Bad managers suck and bad jobs that steal your entire life suck even worse.
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So honestly I've just been chugging along for a while now assuming this is just how life is for the vast majority of salaried people with a decent job earning a decent income. I mean this thread literally is showing me it's not the case for many.
There is only a tenuous relationship between salary and how hard people work.
I am a programmer and have worked with PMs of all shapes and sizes, sometimes who didn't even reside on the same continent as me. Some were always on, some weren't. Some were good, some were bad.
The really good ones removed the choke point around them. It's counter-intuitive to many equate email volume to "look how important to the company I am". The best PM conduct light, productive meetings. They make it so that I never have to wake them in the middle of the night because unknowns are kept to a minimum. Their projects are delivered roughly when they said they would. Their job is to remove friction so teams can get things done. There are many ways to achieve that, and they don't require being the central point of failure 24/7.
Seriously, if your remote team is blocked for hours every time you're not responding to them immediately, there is something very wrong with the way your company is conducting business.
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I have a friend, she used to work on my Team in Europe. She was brilliant...a PhD, could easily do my boss's job. She worked from home 100% of the time. To make long story short my boss somehow had a hunch she wasn't always working from home in her 'actual' home. She was right...ended up asking and found out the coworker was working in her mother's house an hour away from her own home a few days a week. She was doing this as her mom was extremely sick and in/out of the hospital so it for a few weeks it made it easier to be there sometimes in case something happened.
The colleague wasn't underperforming, never missed a meeting...she was working as usual. Still being 'on' til late hours like everyone else. However, my boss told on her about this and mentioned to me how bad it made the colleague look and how my boss's boss said she should have taken a medical leave of absence. The colleague got reprimanded for it actually. I couldn't believe they'd rather her leave her job and put more work on others simply because they found out the 'home' she was working from wasn't her usual home location occasionally. She's since gone now successfully working for her own company and occasionally contracting for other companies.
Anyway...my point being is the company isn't as flexible as they like to say they are. And I think this somewhat dependable on who you report to/who they report to/etc. I just know this suggestion of blocking off time during the day each day or even most day would not be acceptable to my boss. (I'm actually a bit lower on the totem pole here so it would be hard to do as I have a good bit of meetings to attend during the day. Plenty of days with 2-4 hours worth of meetings. They wouldn't change these for me and it's not an option to not attend fyi.)
What happened to your friend is the most ridiculous and petty micromanaging I have heard of in a long time-- what a load of complete and utter !&^&#^%Q%1666625!!!!!
It also tells you everything you need to know about your boss and your company. Any manager or company who is more concerned about APPEARANCES than RESULTS is going to be a nightmare to work for.
Start looking for another place to work. Today.
I do understand the challenges of global work. For nearly two years, I was based in Asia, managing a team of 8-9 people across 7 programs/projects, and our local office, but my manager was based in DC and I also had to interact with/be accountable and responsive on an almost daily basis with core functional staff (finance, legal, HR, etc) in NY and DC. I was also still doing roughly 1/4 of the day to day work on the program I was originally responsible to (I had two other co-workers who picked up maybe 1/2 of what I had done previously as my role expanded, but there was still a lot I had to do myself due to the complexity of the relationships, management level decisions I needed to make, etc). I worked 60-80 hour weeks for the better part of those 2 years. I had a supportive boss who encouraged me to set, and keep, limits, but he was a workaholic himself with an even crazier jobs (management oversight for 8-9 international offices, many in complicated parts of the world with lots of issues that needed to be worked out/through). At least a couple of times a week I needed to be on conference calls from 9 pm my time --after having been up at 5:30 on my end and working a 8-9 hour day in the office. It sucked, big time. But like I said, my manager was a real mensch and would help me with pushback with finance, etc. when they wanted repeated late night meetings, etc.
I strongly recommend the book Necessary Endings by Henry Cloud. It focuses a lot on how to set proper boundaries at work, and on how to decide whether or not a situation is untenable if/when those boundaries are not respected.
There are a few times that my boss has said things that I always keep in the back of my mind and it's because these scenarios give me insight as to how they are 'really' thinking about us employees. The above scenario was one of them. The other scenario was when a colleague in Europe took vacation (you know how much time off they get over there). My boss stated to me that "some people just don't understand that just because you have vacation doesn't mean you should be taking all of it." When things like this slip is when I realize my boss and their managers are not playing around...meaning I can't trust if they say they're all about the work/life balance because they really aren't.
I'm glad you can understand/appreciate the challenges of working in a global environment. It's not always easy working with teams in your country *and* on the opposite side of the world.
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So. I almost can't believe the conversation I just had with my boss. Like, it's actually kind of eery....
So she called to give me a 'resourcing update'. I mentioned earlier I'm on two huge global projects. Usually people with my position are only on one. Well she called me to say I'm being taken off of one. Long story short one of them we 'think' may start to wind down a bit, but the other is unexpectedly ramping up even more so I need to be back on the other. Plus the one that's ramping up more again it just makes sense I focus on time-wise and not be back across both projects handling so many different time zones.
It actually doesn't alleviate the number of night meetings I'm having because I'm taking back 2 more countries in Asia again so it'll be the same in terms of the number of evening calls. However, my boss said she eventually wants to get me off of evening calls. She actually got someone hired at my company within the past few days to help with that but just found out once the person starts they're not even going to put them on her/our team. So she said she'd actually been working on that in the background but it just didn't work out and that she was actually pretty angry she went through all of that only for them to 'take that person away and put them with someone else' against what was originally discussed.
She said she tried because she knows how hard it is to have a normal life and at this point she knows we're making sacrifices. I even mentioned to her the dinner I just cancelled for tonight. She literally said that she is over doing this and she is now going to start putting her foot down and that I need to do it too. She said...and I quote...."Listen. If you need to go somewhere or do something during the day you need to block that time off of your calendar and do it. Take that time or else you're going to get burnt out. Go have lunch. Or go to your doctor's appointment. Or whatever. I don't need to know about all these things; just block the time off and do it. Or else you'll be like I've been the last however many years I've been working here. I know because I've been doing it. But no more for me; I'm done. You are responsible for making sure you have a life and if you don't do it then it won't ever happen working here."
So...um....yeah. That just happened!
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That is awesome! Now put it into practice. Go to dinner with your friend, reschedule or miss the meeting :)
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Yay! Now take your boss' advice and carve out time for yourself.
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I have similar hours to you (ranging from slightly to significantly longer), and where I work anyone with kids has a stay-at-home spouse.
4:15 -- wake up, shower, dress, eat, pack lunch
5:00 -- Drive to work
5:20-6:20 -- Work
6:20-6:50 -- Drive home
6:50-7:30 -- Work out every other day, otherwise eating moves up
7:30-7:45 -- Eat
7:45-9:00 -- Stupid admin stuff that wastes time (no internet or phone at work), or maybe reading
9:00-10:00 -- Get ready for bed, read
That's only 5 days per week, as I normally have weekends to myself for cooking and shopping and recovering. Clearly, for the people who have kids and share my schedule, they do it by arriving to a meal already cooked, playing with their kids for a few minutes, and skipping workouts. What better FIRE motivation could there be?
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As others have said, most people don't work 11-12 hour days. If you are working days that long I would assume (or hope) you're making a shit load of money in which case depending on your age you would really benefit from aiming of early retirement so that by the time you are ready to have kids you could be retired.
But to work hours that long do you really love your job? I can't imagine working that many hours in a day but I have never had a job that I love. That might make it hard to just retire early (essentially just going cold turkey from work to have children) if you love your job or have been working in it so much that you might define yourself by it.
Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
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Sorry using stupid Tapatalk app I didn't see this thread is so long I was only answering original question & not everything else so ignore me, I can't see how to delete my post :)
Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
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Yeah, I just wanted to +1 for the folks who are getting screwed on salary like it's their boss' job.
I am in sales. In my particular industry, the salary behavior is pretty normal, and with a twist. New guys work hard, and old guys don't even see or call their accounts, for 3-5x the pay. New guys walk in behind the retirees and get the wall of complaints from clients. I am the only one I know of working to buy my way out with a burly 'stache among the younger crowd. It's hard to stay sane, even with that.
The next job tier up may be a 33% pay hike and the same or MORE hours. The route to the semi-retired old-guys doesn't exist anymore - the industry is consolidating. The current spot pays so much more than other jobs I'm likely to get in under a year (with 4-6% raises), and with the second best benefits I've heard of, that by the time I landed a replacement career, I could be FI. So, I'm still trying to see if I can endure it long enough to decisively get off the bus. I wouldn't even attempt this job with a family - I don't have it in me to phone it in, and I don't have it in me to be an absent husband and father. Those who said "set boundaries" are right - even if you're expendable, this kind of boss wants a really well-documented path to fire you if they're going to, so they don't have to pay unemployment insurance, so you always have more time (and leeway for boundaries) than they'll ever tell you.
Managerial strategy is almost exclusively "Maximum Pressure." You have so much shit to do you can't do it, and they know you can't do it - they want you to 110% until you burn out because they think that it's easier to do that and replace you than allow you to get comfortable. They have their own threats every month and their own targets they can't possibly hit. Many coworkers have difficulty believing a compliment from the boss given how short-lived it is (you may get one in a month if you're getting high results, immediately before the next demand). They know you need a rocket pack to jump to the next ship and that most don't have time or energy to build one. Where you really lose is if you believe this is what every job is like - however, there are more jobs like this for the 30s crowd these days than most of the 50s crowd seems to believe.
The other option than jumping ship is learning to smooth your tie, ignore half the noise, generate results too good to get fired, and then fire yourself before you have a heart attack. I'm baffled that people are posting they have better jobs... no kidding.
I have no kids, but I feel awful for my coworkers who do.
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YAY!
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She said she tried because she knows how hard it is to have a normal life and at this point she knows we're making sacrifices. I even mentioned to her the dinner I just cancelled for tonight. She literally said that she is over doing this and she is now going to start putting her foot down and that I need to do it too. She said...and I quote...."Listen. If you need to go somewhere or do something during the day you need to block that time off of your calendar and do it. Take that time or else you're going to get burnt out. Go have lunch. Or go to your doctor's appointment. Or whatever. I don't need to know about all these things; just block the time off and do it. Or else you'll be like I've been the last however many years I've been working here. I know because I've been doing it. But no more for me; I'm done. You are responsible for making sure you have a life and if you don't do it then it won't ever happen working here."
So...um....yeah. That just happened!
If this isn't the universe telling you to take our advice and make some room for your personal life, I don't know what is! So glad to hear this update (while also being a little wary of your boss bc frankly she sounds a little all over the place...).
Also, some words of encouragement about having a life AND kids. I've been able to maintain a significant hobby/athletic involvement, an active social life, and overall a great lifestyle post-baby (DS is 2.5 now). We travel multiple times per year, have a strong marriage, and are involved family members with our broader families too. There are major challenges and times when we suck at a bunch of things, but overall life is awesome and we don't feel like we gave up ourselves when we had our kid. The hardest thing for us has been getting less sleep and giving up sleeping in regularly (we were big sleepers on weekends pre-kid). I credit financial security, a kick ass partner who loves being a dad and does more than 50% of household stuff/childcare (he has a very 9-5 professional job), and being able to work an 80% schedule at my law firm. Not a perfect life, but happy, fun, and a constant adventure. :)
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So. I almost can't believe the conversation I just had with my boss. Like, it's actually kind of eery....
So she called to give me a 'resourcing update'. I mentioned earlier I'm on two huge global projects. Usually people with my position are only on one. Well she called me to say I'm being taken off of one. Long story short one of them we 'think' may start to wind down a bit, but the other is unexpectedly ramping up even more so I need to be back on the other. Plus the one that's ramping up more again it just makes sense I focus on time-wise and not be back across both projects handling so many different time zones.
It actually doesn't alleviate the number of night meetings I'm having because I'm taking back 2 more countries in Asia again so it'll be the same in terms of the number of evening calls. However, my boss said she eventually wants to get me off of evening calls. She actually got someone hired at my company within the past few days to help with that but just found out once the person starts they're not even going to put them on her/our team. So she said she'd actually been working on that in the background but it just didn't work out and that she was actually pretty angry she went through all of that only for them to 'take that person away and put them with someone else' against what was originally discussed.
She said she tried because she knows how hard it is to have a normal life and at this point she knows we're making sacrifices. I even mentioned to her the dinner I just cancelled for tonight. She literally said that she is over doing this and she is now going to start putting her foot down and that I need to do it too. She said...and I quote...."Listen. If you need to go somewhere or do something during the day you need to block that time off of your calendar and do it. Take that time or else you're going to get burnt out. Go have lunch. Or go to your doctor's appointment. Or whatever. I don't need to know about all these things; just block the time off and do it. Or else you'll be like I've been the last however many years I've been working here. I know because I've been doing it. But no more for me; I'm done. You are responsible for making sure you have a life and if you don't do it then it won't ever happen working here."
So...um....yeah. That just happened!
Didn't read this entire thread, but I did read your posts. While this update is welcome, you seem to not be good at setting boundaries and expectations of your co-workers and clients.
I'm an attorney who is theoretically always "plugged in." When I meet with clients, I squarely tell them at our first meeting that I will not take phone calls after 5:00. I also tell them that I will respond to all emails within two business days. This sets the expectation that I will not be responding to a 7:00 PM email asking me a stupid question.
As for my bosses (I am the only associate in a 24 lawyer firm), I simply do not respond to anything after 5:00. I respond when I get in the office the next morning. The only time I'm bothered after 5:00 is if a partner has almost blown a deadline and needs my help getting something filed by the next day. That happens like 2-3 times a year.
Part of the reason that happens so little is that I come in every weekend and look at every matter I'm working on. I notice a deadline is coming up in a week and ask the partner, "Hey, you want me to get this started?" That avoids emergencies and stupidly long nights.
Anyway, this whole modern concept of always being "plugged in" is only as bad as you make it. Start setting boundaries. Stop replying to emails right away. Stop doing tasks right when you are asked. Take preventative measures to stop having shit hit the fan.
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One thing I noticed is that you are spending 2.5 hours on a 1.2 hour workout. I started running because I couldn't afford the time to go to the gym and back. I do my workout in the morning. Wake up at 515am. Wake up, get dressed, poop and try to be out the door by 530. I have a 6 mile loop that for me is about an hour. Get back, cool down by un/loading dishwasher and making lunch. Hop in the shower and go. My 1 hour workout 'costs' me pretty much 1 hour as all of the other stuff would happen any way. If I had to drive to the gym, that would be 20 minutes there, 20 minutes back on top of whatever time there-not worth it. I know many others that choose running because of the time thing-as soon as we hit the door we are exercising.
I purchased dumbbells to do weights on my off days. I don't want to spend the money on a big set up so can't do the heavy weights like at the gym so I focus on lighter weight and higher reps.
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Personally I hate gyms. They are just big cubicles with exercise equipment in them instead of office equipment. I don't run but I do bike. Exercising outside is soooo much nicer than being stuck in a gym sweating my @ss off.
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Yes...I'm in a project management role.
I agree with others that I need to incorporate better efficiencies. The 'challenge' with hours is that, as I mentioned, I'm covering a team in the US but I'm also covering a team in Australia, a team in New Zealand and a team in Japan. Those teams start their day as I'm ending mine and I obviously can't stay up all night and work 'with' them on their hours but it means my meetings with them are in the evenings and occasionally things pop up I should respond to if I see before going to bed basically.
I'm in my late 30s.
It is a challenge. For a few years, I managed the team of engineers that worked the 24/7 shifts to keep the manufacturing line running. So I had 6 engineers, they worked 12 hour shifts. I was on call nights and weekends. I considered it to be my job, however, to train them to handle things themselves. Over time, they got good at identifying what was worth an after-hours call. I also let them know that my cell phone was off at home. They needed to call my landline. For some reason, 20 somethings are loathe to do that.
We no longer do our own manufacturing, it's now in Japan. So now I have meetings with Japan. There are meetings every day, at the end of our day/ beginning of their day. I simply cannot be in a meeting from 4 to 6 pm every day, so I've specifically chosen the 2 that are essential. I set aside time to respond to their needs, but also set expectations that they learn to do things on their own. The days that I work late for these meetings I also start late.
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12+ hours of work, plus answering emails at a few other times during the day? Most people don't do that. I work 8.5 hours a day and don't think about work at all once I leave.
Are you hourly?
I'm an engineer, almost 47, have been working and salaried for 25 years.
I've never consistently worked 12 hours a day.
At one job, crunch time (we eventually went out of business), I had a month of 12 hour night shift. Technically was supposed to be 3 day one week/ 4 day the next. But was actually 4-5 days a week. At the end of the month I took a week of comp time. I didn't ask for it, I told my boss I was taking it.
At one job, I had a couple of years of 9-9.5 hour days. I'd say my typical week was 47.5 hours a week (yes, I kept track). I was 30-32 years old.
I've done senior engineering, management, project management. Never worked 12 hours a day for longer than a month. And now way less. Working even those hours didn't earn me a ton more money, or better promotions. Changing jobs is the way to get that.