The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Setters-r-Better on September 25, 2014, 06:28:06 PM
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Do you pay for housecleaning? How much does it cost?
How antimustachian is it to pay for this? How do you justify it, especially if you're not FI yet?
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Housecleaning services are generally considered facepunch-worthy.
Remember that the 4% withdrawal rate means that every $10 monthly expense ($120/year) has to have $3,000 of capital backing it up before you can retire. How much is your cleaning service? $50/month? $100? Are you comfortable delaying your financial independence long enough to save an extra $15-30k just so you don't have to clean your own toilets? It sounds like an absurd proposition to me.
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Housecleaning services are generally considered facepunch-worthy.
Remember that the 4% withdrawal rate means that every $10 monthly expense ($120/year) has to have $3,000 of capital backing it up before you can retire. How much is your cleaning service? $50/month? $100? Are you comfortable delaying your financial independence long enough to save an extra $15-30k just so you don't have to clean your own toilets? It sounds like an absurd proposition to me.
Your absurd proposition made me consider getting a housecleaner. When I think of it in terms of would I rather retire now and have to clean my house, or work another couple of months and never have to clean it again, I think I would choose working a couple more months. Clearly I must either hate cleaning more than most people, or like my job a lot more.
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$30K should be enough to buy a "lifetime membership" to having someone clean your house for you ($100/mo)
But there are costs to not doing things yourself too. Usually it starts out with you hire some lady on a recommendation. The first cleaning is great. Eventually business picks up and she hires a helper. Quality of the service goes down a bit. At some point the original person you hired has a team of helpers, and who cleans your house changes from month to month, and quality is horrible. Worst case scenario, valuables start disappearing.
As an example of quality issues, at our last house they would really bang up the trim running the vacuum around. I guess the previous owner had painted the trim without applying a primer so it chipped really easily. Anyway, the cleaning people beat the shit out of it, which cost me a lot of time when we went to sell it. They also broke about half of the drawstrings for our blinds. I won't bother to complain about missed spots, etc.
Anyway, we pay for someone to clean the house once a month, because it keeps the wife happy. But it's not great for saving money, and it's not that great overall.
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
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Housecleaning services are generally considered facepunch-worthy.
Remember that the 4% withdrawal rate means that every $10 monthly expense ($120/year) has to have $3,000 of capital backing it up before you can retire. How much is your cleaning service? $50/month? $100? Are you comfortable delaying your financial independence long enough to save an extra $15-30k just so you don't have to clean your own toilets? It sounds like an absurd proposition to me.
Your absurd proposition made me consider getting a housecleaner. When I think of it in terms of would I rather retire now and have to clean my house, or work another couple of months and never have to clean it again, I think I would choose working a couple more months. Clearly I must either hate cleaning more than most people, or like my job a lot more.
I just talked to SO about this. He suggested we could divide up the money we aren't using (we are retired) into different accounts - one for a cleaner....
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I was paying $110/month for a once a month deep cleaning. but now that my SO is gone I find it very easy to keep the house clean and I cancelled. I think that I hired them in a moment of weakness, because I was so tired of cleaning up after him all of the time. When one person is much neater than the other it is a way to keep the peace, but if everyone picks up after themselves it is really a waste,
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I work at my job about 65 hours per week. I have a cleaning person come every other week. She costs me 20 per hour when she's working, and I can make up to 175 per hour when I'm working. Makes sense to me to have someone help me out with this rather than use my time that way. If I'm doing it, I am losing 155 dollars an hour. If I work an extra hour and a half once a month, I have made enough for her to clean my house two times.
That makes more sense to me than your logic about 30000 paying for 100 dollars in cleaning or whatever. Buy whatever you want if you are reaching your other goals and are not in debt. You'll still FIRE without being an extremist mustachian if you set reasonable goals.
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If I could go back in time to when my children were small, I would hire housecleaning. We were fine before we had children, and we're fine now that the kids are older -- but when I was balancing caring for small children, working, and doing ALL the housework myself, it was too much. It's really the only thing about which my husband and I fought. At that point, we didn't do it because of money, but it absolutely would've made my life better -- and it would've made my husband's life better because I wouldn't have been resentful over the constant issues with cleaning. NOT simply hiring out the job is one of my biggest regrets.
When my girls have children of their own, I'll probably give them a year's worth of housecleaning as a baby shower gift.
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I'm going to weigh in with a different take on this - and that is that hiring someone (local, independent) is a good thing for the local economy. I hired someone who worked hard and did a great job. And the money she made was really important for her family. Her husband was disabled, she had a couple of kids, and the family benefited greatly from her honest work.
Why did I hire her? I was working a job, had an terminally ill husband, and we were running a business. We needed the help. And she needed the work.
Sometimes hiring things out is a good thing for yourself and others.
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Yes
$100 per visit. She does laundry
We are both very busy and are in the top tax bracket. We are very lucky but the cost is a rounding error and much cheaper than getting divorced
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We used to have a housecleaning service, before i started reading MMM. Looking back now, when I first got the housecleaning service, I can still justify it as a needed service. My wife was involved in an auto accident and was unable to perform her role as a SAHM. I immediately cut back to half time at work, and worked from home 100%. I was unexpectedly thrust into the role of SAHD, caretaker of my wife, and was suffering horrible anxiety from dealing with all of this and other unpleasantries. I hired a housecleaning service and lawn service to free up some time to focus on the more important stuff. Honestly, I don't know how you single parents do it all, you folks are superheroes. As my wife was recovering, I told her you know the new cleaning ladies do a much better job than the previous cleaning lady, maybe we should keep them. My wife hates housework, so the old cleaning lady had no problem being fired. BTW, the lawn service did not get renewed the following summer.
The service we hired was a little unique. Five ladies showed up at once, busted their butts and scared the shit out of the cat for an hour and then they were gone. The owner of the company charged $75 every two weeks. Doing the math, that's $15/hr per lady. The owner had liability insurance, mini-vans for the crews, had to pay SS, other expenses, and still needed to turn a profit. I figured the ladies were only getting half at $7.50/hr. I didn't feel right paying them so little, so we left each of them a $5 tip each cleaning. So in reality it cost us $100 every two weeks.
After discovering MMM and doing the math, the cleaning service was going to cost us $37,500 over 10yrs. I whittled away other expenses, but left this one alone. I would drop hints, but I knew my wife was going to be reluctant. She loved having the cleaning ladies and so did I, but I could no longer justify the expense in my head. I showed her the math, and said in 10yrs, both your daughters will be in college. That $37.5K will pay for an entire year of college for one of them. She agreed with my logic and if I would have said then we are cancelling the service she would have gone along and not protested, but I could tell she was still not 100% sold yet. I thought about it some more and came up with a new proposal. I said since the cleaning ladies come every two weeks, why don't we have a family cleaning every two weeks also. Not just you, but me and the girls also. She actually teared up a little and said "I would love that". She was sold. We no longer have a cleaning service and are having family cleaning days. The girls complain somewhat, but are more helpful than I thought they would be and plus they are learning a work ethic. I'm kind of sick, I actually like housecleaning, WHEN I HAVE THE TIME.
I know not all will concur with my logic, but that's my long winded story on housecleaning as it pertains to my new found mustachism.
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If I could go back in time to when my children were small, I would hire housecleaning. We were fine before we had children, and we're fine now that the kids are older -- but when I was balancing caring for small children, working, and doing ALL the housework myself, it was too much. It's really the only thing about which my husband and I fought. At that point, we didn't do it because of money, but it absolutely would've made my life better -- and it would've made my husband's life better because I wouldn't have been resentful over the constant issues with cleaning. NOT simply hiring out the job is one of my biggest regrets.
When my girls have children of their own, I'll probably give them a year's worth of housecleaning as a baby shower gift.
We don't have housecleaning, never have....but this generally sums up how I feel. Im working on training the kids to help, but they are not very good at it (8 and 10 yrs old), and walking them through every step is still a lot of work for me. Everything just feels so gross and grimey all the time, carpet is nasty....etc. I don't think we can afford it yet, but maybe in a couple years....it sure sounds nice.
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Housecleaning services are generally considered facepunch-worthy.
Remember that the 4% withdrawal rate means that every $10 monthly expense ($120/year) has to have $3,000 of capital backing it up before you can retire. How much is your cleaning service? $50/month? $100? Are you comfortable delaying your financial independence long enough to save an extra $15-30k just so you don't have to clean your own toilets? It sounds like an absurd proposition to me.
If it were just cleaning toilets, I would agree. But its the toilets, bathtubs, showers, mirrors, sinks, laundry, dusting, vacuuming, dog bathing, dog brushing, dishes, cooking, windows, wood floors,budgeting, grocery shopping......it just feels like so much.
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
I think it's universally accepted that two adults, two dogs, two kids plus two part time kids are a lot to clean up after.
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Do you pay for housecleaning? How much does it cost?
How antimustachian is it to pay for this? How do you justify it, especially if you're not FI yet?
No, I don't pay for housecleaning. I have hands AND legs, thus am able to move to whatever location in my house is in need of cleaning to perform the task.
If you need to pay for housecleaning it's most likely an indication that something is wrong. Your house is too big, your time is too overbooked, you are too lazy. All of those are fixable, but none by hiring a cleaning service.
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
And yes, I'm a little bit pot stirring here :-) I think I'd have to be nearly FI before I could part with the money for this kind of service. But I totally WANT house cleaning :-)
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If you need to pay for housecleaning it's most likely an indication that something is wrong. Your house is too big, your time is too overbooked, you are too lazy. All of those are fixable, but none by hiring a cleaning service.
+1. If you need a housecleaner, I think you've got an excellent opportunity for some decluttering and simplifying of your life.
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I had cleaning service when kids were small. I was working 3 days a week and home with them 2 days a week. I didn't want to spend my time with them cleaning nor weekend time. It was worth it. I stopped service when they started school. Now they are older I just hired a cleaning service. With the after school activities, homework, sport practices,etc. It is worth our time to pay someone. We are FI.
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We don't have housecleaning, never have....but this generally sums up how I feel. Im working on training the kids to help, but they are not very good at it (8 and 10 yrs old), and walking them through every step is still a lot of work for me. Everything just feels so gross and grimey all the time, carpet is nasty....etc. I don't think we can afford it yet, but maybe in a couple years....it sure sounds nice.
You mean parenting is a lot of work? Maybe you need a cleaning service and a nanny - lol.
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To me it's facepunch-worthy unless you are physically unable to clean your home.
I knew a lady once who, after a divorce, was stressing out about her budget and how she was going to live. She had $150/month budgeted for house cleaning yet claimed she was scared that she was going to "live as a pauper."
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
I think it's universally accepted that two adults, two dogs, two kids plus two part time kids are a lot to clean up after.
Not if everybody cleans up after themselves. Remember when parents used to expect their kids to not make a mess, and do regular chores?
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If you need to pay for housecleaning it's most likely an indication that something is wrong. Your house is too big, your time is too overbooked, you are too lazy. All of those are fixable, but none by hiring a cleaning service.
+1. If you need a housecleaner, I think you've got an excellent opportunity for some decluttering and simplifying of your life.
Disagree.
I own my own business, my husband owns his own businesses. We have a young child (5 years old) and my disabled mother-in-law lives with us. Our weekly housecleaner is some of the best money that we spend. Why?
1. I do not learn a new skill by cleaning toilets, showers, vacuuming, mopping, dusting each week, unlike when I can teach myself electrical wiring or other things DIY with my properties.
2. We pay her about $22/hr. for 2 hours of work each week. I literally do need to budget my time and have a to-do list a mile long of projects, both in my businesses and at home that need my attention. My rate is much higher than $22/hr. And it IS that rate because of #1 (not acquiring any new skills and actually wasting my time not learning other skills).
3. I do not like cleaning. I'm spending $ on my values.
4. I already spend too much time doing laundry, dishes, cooking home cooked meals, etc. and don't spend enough time with my 5 year old son. I've thought about having her do my laundry but my husband doesn't want her touching his underwear.
In my world, it is worth every penny.
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Also, we pick up stuff the day before the housecleaner cleans. Facepunch-worthy, but it is incentive to at least once per week pick the Legos up from the floor, and it gets my son moving because he "doesn't want her to vacuum them up."
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
I think it's universally accepted that two adults, two dogs, two kids plus two part time kids are a lot to clean up after.
Not if everybody cleans up after themselves. Remember when parents used to expect their kids to not make a mess, and do regular chores?
That's what I was thinking.
I know when I was 8 and 10 I was already my Mom clean around the house. So were both my brothers. Of course we never did it as good as my Mom could, but at least the house was clean.
About once a month, my Dad would take the kids out of the house for a couple of hours - go to the library or something, while my Mom would stay home and do a deep cleaning.
I think a lot of people are just really lazy or something.
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Housecleaning services are generally considered facepunch-worthy.
Remember that the 4% withdrawal rate means that every $10 monthly expense ($120/year) has to have $3,000 of capital backing it up before you can retire. How much is your cleaning service? $50/month? $100? Are you comfortable delaying your financial independence long enough to save an extra $15-30k just so you don't have to clean your own toilets? It sounds like an absurd proposition to me.
If it were just cleaning toilets, I would agree. But its the toilets, bathtubs, showers, mirrors, sinks, laundry, dusting, vacuuming, dog bathing, dog brushing, dishes, cooking, windows, wood floors,budgeting, grocery shopping......it just feels like so much.
Everytime this topic comes up, I'm always thankful that I'm not a neat freak that needs everything spotless all the time. Just looking at that list of chores above makes me tired too. Luckily, only grocery shopping, cooking, dishes (in a dishwasher), and laundry (in a clothes washer) need to be done on a weekly basis in my house. I also don't shower daily and definitely don't use a new towel (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/bathing/) each time.
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That $37.5K will pay for an entire year of college for one of them.
That's a fairly expensive college then. My entire bachelor's degree (4 years) cost me less than $50k, including food and housing costs. That was at a state university, not community college.
(sorry for off topic post)
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That's what I was thinking.
I know when I was 8 and 10 I was already my Mom clean around the house. So were both my brothers. Of course we never did it as good as my Mom could, but at least the house was clean.
About once a month, my Dad would take the kids out of the house for a couple of hours - go to the library or something, while my Mom would stay home and do a deep cleaning.
I think a lot of people are just really lazy or something.
Exactly! I didn't do a ton of stuff as a kid personally, but I remember mopping floors, unloading the dishwasher, doing my laundry (me and my sister would combine ours to make a full load), and raking leaves. My sister did other stuff that I can't remember now. Toys were all kept in our rooms, so they definitely didn't end up strewn around for other people to deal with. We always put dirty dishes in the sink and dirty clothes in the hampers. Not much left to clean up after. My mom did spend a lot of time cleaning, but that was more because we had a freakishly huge house.
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That $37.5K will pay for an entire year of college for one of them.
That's a fairly expensive college then. My entire bachelor's degree (4 years) cost me less than $50k, including food and housing costs. That was at a state university, not community college.
(sorry for off topic post)
I was roughly estimating to make a point, but regardless for 2024, I don't think it's expensive based upon current rates and trends. My entire 4 yrs at a state university was $24K including everything, 20+ yrs ago. State schools in 2014, run about $26K-$30K per yr around here. I'd be surprised if it wasn't more than $37.5K, 10yrs from now.
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That $37.5K will pay for an entire year of college for one of them.
That's a fairly expensive college then. My entire bachelor's degree (4 years) cost me less than $50k, including food and housing costs. That was at a state university, not community college.
(sorry for off topic post)
I was roughly estimating to make a point, but regardless for 2024, I don't think it's expensive based upon current rates and trends. My entire 4 yrs at a state university was $24K including everything, 20+ yrs ago. State schools in 2014, run about $26K-$30K per yr around here. I'd be surprised if it wasn't more than $37.5K, 10yrs from now.
I graduated within the last 10 years. The current estimated resident costs at the college I went to is $15k per year (not counting room and board), so it has gone up significantly. I'd like to think (hope) tuition won't continue to rise at this rapid rate...
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
I think it's universally accepted that two adults, two dogs, two kids plus two part time kids are a lot to clean up after.
Not if everybody cleans up after themselves. Remember when parents used to expect their kids to not make a mess, and do regular chores?
Ah, the good ole days that mostly exist in your imagination and not in reality. I'm guessing you don't remember things as clearly as you think you do. And even if you can somehow prove that your memories of your childhood are ironclad, that doesn't mean this harmoniously clean house in which all children pulled their weight was the reality for all families.
One thing that has changed somewhat, is that kids don't spend as much time outdoors as they did in the good ole days. Hence, possibly dirtier homes for families.
I also found the comment about parenting your kids from HairUpperLip was a low blow as well. It's a real pain to train kids to pick up after themselves. It's not like you do it once and they are miraculously trained. You often don't see the payoff from all the work until they are grown. I don't think the person complaining about it was saying they didn't want to do it but rather that it was hard work. And it is!
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I have happily paid for housekeeping in the past and probably will again, because I like a nice clean house and can afford it.
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We are FI. Having a housecleaner once a month is a delightful joy and worth much more to us than spending that money on other things now or in the future. Money is a tool. In this case, we use is to buy time. As an aside, we were able to convince elderly family to accept our gift of money to hire a cleaner because we were doing it too. They initially got offended at the idea they were too old to care for themselves (which is true) and it was easier for them to accept that we wanted to gift them with an enjoyable luxury (which was also true).
For those on the board who don't hate housecleaning, you might consider doing it for others as a side gig.
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So a lot of us here pay for cleaning service. But let's not try to justify it. It's an unjustifiable luxury. It is better to acknowledge that than to try to pretend that it makes sense with ridiculous justifications (my time is so valuable, my house is hard to clean, etc)
For my family, at this point in time, the cleaning service is one place where I've decided to kick the can down the road - I've already started biking to work, am in the process of selling my gas guzzler, we've mostly stopped eating out, etc, etc. This is one that I will get to eventually, but we're not ready for it yet.
For average house prices in my area (~$300K), with current interest rates and 20% down payment, you could pay off a 30 year mortgage a little more than 4 years early if you applied an extra $100 every month. Bottom line is it's not justifiable if you have any debt at all, including mortgage.
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I get hiring people to do things you don't want to. I think a good portion of us do. I don't want to mow my lawn, especially in Houston summers. So I hire a cheap local man to do it. Punch me in the face. Fair enough.
One thing about the house though, I've found that minimizing what I own and living small helps with the clean up, immensely. Empty spaces are easy to vacuum and dust. There is less stuff to pick up, or navigate around to get to a window to clean. The bane of my existence is still my tub/shower, but when I don't have that much else to clean then I have no option. Basically anyone I hire would be done within 1 hour, not even justifying the service.
TL;DR: have less stuff!
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
I think it's universally accepted that two adults, two dogs, two kids plus two part time kids are a lot to clean up after.
Not if everybody cleans up after themselves. Remember when parents used to expect their kids to not make a mess, and do regular chores?
Ah, the good ole days that mostly exist in your imagination and not in reality. I'm guessing you don't remember things as clearly as you think you do. And even if you can somehow prove that your memories of your childhood are ironclad, that doesn't mean this harmoniously clean house in which all children pulled their weight was the reality for all families.
One thing that has changed somewhat, is that kids don't spend as much time outdoors as they did in the good ole days. Hence, possibly dirtier homes for families.
I also found the comment about parenting your kids from HairUpperLip was a low blow as well. It's a real pain to train kids to pick up after themselves. It's not like you do it once and they are miraculously trained. You often don't see the payoff from all the work until they are grown. I don't think the person complaining about it was saying they didn't want to do it but rather that it was hard work. And it is!
I think some basic systems can make a big difference. Keeping toys in a designated location - bedrooms or a play room - makes a HUGE difference (as well as having more relaxed standards in those designated rooms). Making putting your dishes in the sink a normal thing that everyone does immediately after eating makes a difference.
Keeping the overall volume of stuff down makes the HUGEST difference. One thing I remember is how little videos and video games we owned compared to literally everyone we knew, despite watching/playing as much or more - we just rented everything. We also used the library heavily.
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For starters, the only time we had a cleaning lady was when I was post partum with kid #2. Way cheaper than a lot if the other choices (mental hospital, PP doula, etc).
I think I am pretty on top of my kids about cleaning up. There aren't toys scattered everywhere, we keep things tidy. I am pretty minimalist, and I try to influence the kids.
That said, holy shit do four people make a load of mess. Just so, so, so much more than one or two people. I think it's exponential or something. I stay at home so I have time to deal with it, but a significant portion of my day is spent picking up, packing and unpacking bags, cooking and cleaning up, dealing with the explosion of school papers that come home, doing the laundry, etc.
If I worked full time we would be hiring help. If you are talking abut two working parents, what can you reduce to free up the schedule? Stop cooking meals from stratch? Stop letting you kids do any activities? Stop doing the laundry? Stop riding your bike to work since it takes more time?
I do make the kids "clean" and "cook" and "do laundry". All in quotations, because in reality at age 4 and 7, teaching them to help actually takes me way way more time. So long term it will pay off (right around the time they leave for college) but for now, having them help does not cut down the workload.
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
I think it's universally accepted that two adults, two dogs, two kids plus two part time kids are a lot to clean up after.
Not if everybody cleans up after themselves. Remember when parents used to expect their kids to not make a mess, and do regular chores?
Ah, the good ole days that mostly exist in your imagination and not in reality. I'm guessing you don't remember things as clearly as you think you do. And even if you can somehow prove that your memories of your childhood are ironclad, that doesn't mean this harmoniously clean house in which all children pulled their weight was the reality for all families.
One thing that has changed somewhat, is that kids don't spend as much time outdoors as they did in the good ole days. Hence, possibly dirtier homes for families.
I also found the comment about parenting your kids from HairUpperLip was a low blow as well. It's a real pain to train kids to pick up after themselves. It's not like you do it once and they are miraculously trained. You often don't see the payoff from all the work until they are grown. I don't think the person complaining about it was saying they didn't want to do it but rather that it was hard work. And it is!
I think some basic systems can make a big difference. Keeping toys in a designated location - bedrooms or a play room - makes a HUGE difference (as well as having more relaxed standards in those designated rooms). Making putting your dishes in the sink a normal thing that everyone does immediately after eating makes a difference.
Keeping the overall volume of stuff down makes the HUGEST difference. One thing I remember is how little videos and video games we owned compared to literally everyone we knew, despite watching/playing as much or more - we just rented everything. We also used the library heavily.
That's definitely the case. Less stuff definitely translates into a cleaner home.
I, however, vacillate between embracing the cluttered chaos and trying to get rid of it. It really depends on my week. I find sometimes I get more depressed if I fight it and can create some semblance of zen-like contentment if I just accept that my house will often be a cluttered mess until the kiddos move on. And then I will miss the chaos!
Mayday - how I do relate to your post! I have three boys and stay home with them and it really is astounding. Entropy is a powerful force in the home, and I often feel like Sisyphus in my attempts to keep the clutter and mess at bay. And seriously - what's with the "explosion of papers"? We were brutal about recycling the papers that we didn't think were necessarily, and even doing that, at the end of last school year (kindergarten nonetheless) we had a thick stack of them left! I shutter to think what it will be like when all three of my boys are in school.
But back to the cleaning person issue. I've never had one, but if I had children and worked full time, I would absolutely hire one. I think in many respects whether or not you have or want a cleaning person, this runs in families. We never had, and frankly I don't like the idea of someone cleaning my dirt and seeing my things. It seems far too intimate to me. Even my closest friends don't go in my bedroom - why would I pay a complete stranger to? I also wonder if those of us who can tolerate a bit of mess and dirt end up not feeling the urge to do it. I don't have high standards for cleanliness. That doesn't mean we live in filth or anything, but a dust bunny on the floor? Oh, well. I'll eventually vacuum it up.
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Who knew this was such a hot button topic?
Here's my take on the issue. I really really want a cleaning service like Homejoy or Merry Maids. I'm somewhat OCD and the thought that I won't end up with a perfect, DIY result actually causes more procrastination. No one wants to start a task they've already convinced themselves they'll fail. Also, having battled moderate depression most of my adult life, a clean living space is really important in my mental well-being. But, I'm nowhere near FI and have a ton of student loan debt to tackle.
So where's the middle ground? Here: http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/how-to-clean-your-house-in-20-minutes-a-day-for-30-days-131142
And for those of you who have legitimate mental issues - I feel your pain. http://www.unfuckyourhabitat.com/ is an awesome, supportive resource for people like us.
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She does laundry
You mean she puts the laundry in the machine that does the laundry for her?
Anyways, if I could buy a $30k robot that would do all my housekeeping forever, I might actually do that. But I really dislike the idea of other people in my house touching my stuff.
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For starters, the only time we had a cleaning lady was when I was post partum with kid #2. Way cheaper than a lot if the other choices (mental hospital, PP doula, etc).
I think I am pretty on top of my kids about cleaning up. There aren't toys scattered everywhere, we keep things tidy. I am pretty minimalist, and I try to influence the kids.
That said, holy shit do four people make a load of mess. Just so, so, so much more than one or two people. I think it's exponential or something. I stay at home so I have time to deal with it, but a significant portion of my day is spent picking up, packing and unpacking bags, cooking and cleaning up, dealing with the explosion of school papers that come home, doing the laundry, etc.
If I worked full time we would be hiring help. If you are talking abut two working parents, what can you reduce to free up the schedule? Stop cooking meals from stratch? Stop letting you kids do any activities? Stop doing the laundry? Stop riding your bike to work since it takes more time?
I do make the kids "clean" and "cook" and "do laundry". All in quotations, because in reality at age 4 and 7, teaching them to help actually takes me way way more time. So long term it will pay off (right around the time they leave for college) but for now, having them help does not cut down the workload.
Yes, id have to say we're pretty minimalist with clutter and toys. If you've got crap everywhere, I don't really see how hiring a house cleaner would help with that. Maybe my standards are really high, but I really don't think so. I hardly ever have time or energy to cook from scratch anymore, and not because I lack kitchen skills. Kids are in what I consider really minimal activities, just one weekly music lesson each.
I wish all of the responders were clarifying if they are working mothers or some other demographic....I suspect that will make a huge difference in what side they are on.
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She does laundry
You mean she puts the laundry in the machine that does the laundry for her?
Anyways, if I could buy a $30k robot that would do all my housekeeping forever, I might actually do that. But I really dislike the idea of other people in my house touching my stuff.
What about putting the laundry away, like hanging or folding? That's the biggest hassle.
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She does laundry
You mean she puts the laundry in the machine that does the laundry for her?
Anyways, if I could buy a $30k robot that would do all my housekeeping forever, I might actually do that. But I really dislike the idea of other people in my house touching my stuff.
What about putting the laundry away, like hanging or folding? That's the biggest hassle.
Why would you need to do any of those things?
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So a lot of us here pay for cleaning service. But let's not try to justify it. It's an unjustifiable luxury. It is better to acknowledge that than to try to pretend that it makes sense with ridiculous justifications (my time is so valuable, my house is hard to clean, etc)
For my family, at this point in time, the cleaning service is one place where I've decided to kick the can down the road - I've already started biking to work, am in the process of selling my gas guzzler, we've mostly stopped eating out, etc, etc. This is one that I will get to eventually, but we're not ready for it yet.
For average house prices in my area (~$300K), with current interest rates and 20% down payment, you could pay off a 30 year mortgage a little more than 4 years early if you applied an extra $100 every month. Bottom line is it's not justifiable if you have any debt at all, including mortgage.
Lol, in your opinion but thankfully the only person one needs to justify their spending to is theirself and/or a spouse. Having an extra 45 minutes per week because I have a housekeeper keeps me sane. I am grad student, with a kid. I was getting so stressed not being able to get everything done, it was affecting my health. Every female professor I know has recommended that women in the workforce (with kids) have one because really there is only so many hours in a day. I'd rather work an extra year than try to juggle it all and get myself sick from stress.
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
I think it's universally accepted that two adults, two dogs, two kids plus two part time kids are a lot to clean up after.
Not if everybody cleans up after themselves. Remember when parents used to expect their kids to not make a mess, and do regular chores?
Ah, the good ole days that mostly exist in your imagination and not in reality. I'm guessing you don't remember things as clearly as you think you do. And even if you can somehow prove that your memories of your childhood are ironclad, that doesn't mean this harmoniously clean house in which all children pulled their weight was the reality for all families.
One thing that has changed somewhat, is that kids don't spend as much time outdoors as they did in the good ole days. Hence, possibly dirtier homes for families.
I also found the comment about parenting your kids from HairUpperLip was a low blow as well. It's a real pain to train kids to pick up after themselves. It's not like you do it once and they are miraculously trained. You often don't see the payoff from all the work until they are grown. I don't think the person complaining about it was saying they didn't want to do it but rather that it was hard work. And it is!
+1
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She does laundry
You mean she puts the laundry in the machine that does the laundry for her?
Anyways, if I could buy a $30k robot that would do all my housekeeping forever, I might actually do that. But I really dislike the idea of other people in my house touching my stuff.
What about putting the laundry away, like hanging or folding? That's the biggest hassle.
Why would you need to do any of those things?
So your clothes aren't a wrinkled mess?
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This entire thread makes me sad. As a SAHM and a retired cleaning lady some of these comments leave me feeling a bit stabby. But worse yet, those of you that are paying for this service don't even mention the best part. When you walk back into your home and it's all...beautiful. Are you telling me none of you just stand there for a minute and inwardly rejoice at the lovely lines in the carpet, or the sparkle of the floors? You don't feel that calm and peaceful feeling? You don't stroll through and enjoy everything being clean AT THE SAME TIME? Cause I gotta tell you, if you don't feel any of that, then you are wasting your money.
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
I think it's universally accepted that two adults, two dogs, two kids plus two part time kids are a lot to clean up after.
Not if everybody cleans up after themselves. Remember when parents used to expect their kids to not make a mess, and do regular chores?
Ah, the good ole days that mostly exist in your imagination and not in reality. I'm guessing you don't remember things as clearly as you think you do. And even if you can somehow prove that your memories of your childhood are ironclad, that doesn't mean this harmoniously clean house in which all children pulled their weight was the reality for all families.
One thing that has changed somewhat, is that kids don't spend as much time outdoors as they did in the good ole days. Hence, possibly dirtier homes for families.
Well, in the "good ole days" we only had one box of toys between the three of us (I still remember the day my brothers set the box alight, so we ended up with NO toys), and it seems to me that even the most mustashian parents have more toys in their house than that. We also had a much smaller house, which was easier to keep clean (but you had to play outside because there was no room), less clothes, and less stuff! So, even though the children were expected to keep everything clean, there weren't the toys to clean up!
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Everytime this topic comes up, I'm always thankful that I'm not a neat freak that needs everything spotless all the time. Just looking at that list of chores above makes me tired too. Luckily, only grocery shopping, cooking, dishes (in a dishwasher), and laundry (in a clothes washer) need to be done on a weekly basis in my house. I also don't shower daily and definitely don't use a new towel (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/bathing/) each time.
Yup, I could've posted this.
But, even with our lax cleaning standards (and bathing standards, but that's a topic for another day), people who come over seem to go on and on about how clean our house is. Ummmm, don't look too closely b/c that "clean" you see is actually a house that isn't stuffed to the gills full of crap. It's amazing how keeping things clutter free helps with the allusion of "clean."
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If I could go back in time to when my children were small, I would hire housecleaning. We were fine before we had children, and we're fine now that the kids are older -- but when I was balancing caring for small children, working, and doing ALL the housework myself, it was too much. It's really the only thing about which my husband and I fought. At that point, we didn't do it because of money, but it absolutely would've made my life better -- and it would've made my husband's life better because I wouldn't have been resentful over the constant issues with cleaning. NOT simply hiring out the job is one of my biggest regrets.
When my girls have children of their own, I'll probably give them a year's worth of housecleaning as a baby shower gift.
Yes. My son was 1 I think when we gave it a try. My kids are now 8 and 2.
I can see us canceling some day. Facepunch worthy? Meh, I don't care. The kids wake me up in the mornings that I don't go to the gym, and I pass out 15 minutes after they go to sleep. I don't want to spend those 15 minutes cleaning, I prefer to read.
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Lol, in your opinion but thankfully the only person one needs to justify their spending to is theirself and/or a spouse. Having an extra 45 minutes per week because I have a housekeeper keeps me sane. I am grad student, with a kid. I was getting so stressed not being able to get everything done, it was affecting my health. Every female professor I know has recommended that women in the workforce (with kids) have one because really there is only so many hours in a day. I'd rather work an extra year than try to juggle it all and get myself sick from stress.
I am a female professor with a kid. I highly recommend cleaning your own house (insisting that your SO also pulls their own weight), or figuring out how you are living so close to the edge that a requirement of occasional vacuuming and toilet cleaning could make you sick from stress. Seriously, it sounds like there're other larger life issues that need to be addressed if straits are so very dire.
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
I think it's universally accepted that two adults, two dogs, two kids plus two part time kids are a lot to clean up after.
Not if everybody cleans up after themselves. Remember when parents used to expect their kids to not make a mess, and do regular chores?
Have you seen the amount of damage a single toddler can make in just 10 minutes?
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Lol, in your opinion but thankfully the only person one needs to justify their spending to is theirself and/or a spouse. Having an extra 45 minutes per week because I have a housekeeper keeps me sane. I am grad student, with a kid. I was getting so stressed not being able to get everything done, it was affecting my health. Every female professor I know has recommended that women in the workforce (with kids) have one because really there is only so many hours in a day. I'd rather work an extra year than try to juggle it all and get myself sick from stress.
I am a female professor with a kid. I highly recommend cleaning your own house (insisting that your SO also pulls their own weight), or figuring out how you are living so close to the edge that a requirement of occasional vacuuming and toilet cleaning could make you sick from stress. Seriously, it sounds like there're other larger life issues that need to be addressed if straits are so very dire.
Well, one kid.
I am away from the house 10 hours a day. I get 15 minutes to myself at the end of the day before I pass out. I awake 7.5 hours later when the youngest (who is two) wakes up.
A full time, two kids (one a toddler), and zero down time is pretty darned stressful.
When someone invents a magical semiconductor company in my town that allows me to work less than 40-45 hours a week, sign me up!
It's the time that it takes to do things, plain and simple.
(When the toddler was a baby? I was so exhausted from night time feedings that I was asleep before my older son 4 days a week).
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I'm surprised at the narrow views on this. I get that it's a face punch type expense but you can't just generalize this with "I can do it so you can do it same as me" response. Cleaning is actually a very individualized thing. Cleaning (or the thought of) is very stressful for some. That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't do it but just because you can suck it up and just get it done doesn't mean it's less stressful for them. Cleaning is as much mental as it is physical. Occasional vacuuming and toilet cleaning? I could say that's not even cleaning to me but clearly it is to some. It's fine to say that a cleaning service is a luxury expense and one to be avoided but do you really have to minimize someone's feeling to say that?
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I'm surprised at the narrow views on this. I get that it's a face punch type expense but you can't just generalize this with "I can do it so you can do it same as me" response. Cleaning is actually a very individualized thing. Cleaning (or the thought of) is very stressful for some. That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't do it but just because you can suck it up and just get it done doesn't mean it's less stressful for them. Cleaning is as much mental as it is physical. Occasional vacuuming and toilet cleaning? I could say that's not even cleaning to me but clearly it is to some. It's fine to say that a cleaning service is a luxury expense and one to be avoided but do you really have to minimize someone's feeling to say that?
If the concept of taking basic care of themselves is extremely stressful to the point of causing mental problems, that person has much bigger issues than a dirty toilet and should seek professional help.
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She said "getting everything done". If you really believe that she's referring to taking basic care of herself (which I doubt she does much self care) then you should probably be counting your blessings. Maybe she does have issues that would benefit from therapy. Personally I think damn near everyone does. I guess my point is that you can punch someone in the face about an expense without punching them in soul and while I don't generally sugar coat things, I don't have to grind someone down either.
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This entire thread makes me sad. As a SAHM and a retired cleaning lady some of these comments leave me feeling a bit stabby. But worse yet, those of you that are paying for this service don't even mention the best part. When you walk back into your home and it's all...beautiful. Are you telling me none of you just stand there for a minute and inwardly rejoice at the lovely lines in the carpet, or the sparkle of the floors? You don't feel that calm and peaceful feeling? You don't stroll through and enjoy everything being clean AT THE SAME TIME? Cause I gotta tell you, if you don't feel any of that, then you are wasting your money.
That's how a clean house makes me feel :-)
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Lol, in your opinion but thankfully the only person one needs to justify their spending to is theirself and/or a spouse. Having an extra 45 minutes per week because I have a housekeeper keeps me sane. I am grad student, with a kid. I was getting so stressed not being able to get everything done, it was affecting my health. Every female professor I know has recommended that women in the workforce (with kids) have one because really there is only so many hours in a day. I'd rather work an extra year than try to juggle it all and get myself sick from stress.
I am a female professor with a kid. I highly recommend cleaning your own house (insisting that your SO also pulls their own weight), or figuring out how you are living so close to the edge that a requirement of occasional vacuuming and toilet cleaning could make you sick from stress. Seriously, it sounds like there're other larger life issues that need to be addressed if straits are so very dire.
Well, one kid.
I am away from the house 10 hours a day. I get 15 minutes to myself at the end of the day before I pass out. I awake 7.5 hours later when the youngest (who is two) wakes up.
A full time, two kids (one a toddler), and zero down time is pretty darned stressful.
When someone invents a magical semiconductor company in my town that allows me to work less than 40-45 hours a week, sign me up!
It's the time that it takes to do things, plain and simple.
(When the toddler was a baby? I was so exhausted from night time feedings that I was asleep before my older son 4 days a week).
Is there any way that your kids can go to bed earlier so that you have more time to yourself to unwind and refresh your mind and spirit? I know the saving grace in our household of bad sleepers and high need kids is that they all are in bed by 7 p.m. The infant goes to bed around 6:30. I know this is harder to swing when you work full time, but for the time being, it might be helpful to prioritize your own sanity and try to put them to bed earlier.
We go to bed around 8:30 at the moment, because the infant wakes us up 4-6 times a night. But this still manages to give us around an hour and a half of blissful quiet.
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I have 4 house cleaners....they range from 8-15. Deep cleaning to dusting they are capable of doing it all and I am appreciative of it.
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I really was not trying to cut someone to their soul, although frankly, that sounds a bit dramatic to me.
The poster stated that *all* female professors she's met have the same recommendation. And as such, felt it appropriate to point out that there are mustachain female professors (eg., me) with a different view.
And I think it's also to point out that if not cleaning is enough to tip one over the edge, there must be bigger problems beyond cleaning. This is not to be mean, quite the opposite. Isn't one of the points of MMM that people focus on the tiny unimportant details of life (which, frankly cleaning is), think that spending money on them will change one's life in a big way, but really wind up just spending money that could instead buy their freedom? To me, unless one already has their freedom, hiring cleaning people is a great example of this.
And I don't think we should censor pointing this out (on the MMM forum) because somehow cleaning is such a sensitive and emotionally involved topic that it should be exempt from calling it out for what it is, nor do I think that saying one should clean up after themselves or have less stuff is equivalent to punching them in their soul. Seriously. Sounds like a pretty complainy-pants position to me.
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No, I don't. I am a moderate income, one person household.
I think it depends on your income and the cost/benefit for your situation. Part of the cost is the opportunity cost. If you work a lot of hours and get paid a lot for your time, it can be well worth it. Someone mentioned that having a cleaning person enables earning $155 per hour.
If you have a very large income and hiring a cleaning person is a very low percentage of your income, then it is not necessarily anti-mustacian.
For most people, yes, it is anti-mustacian.
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I used the word soul because I couldn't think of a better one. Feel free to put a different word in there if you prefer. Again, I'm not saying you can't point it out. I'm saying empathy costs you nothing and that cleaning can be very overwhelming for some people. Complainy-pants? If you say so. I just don't find it necessary to be so harsh to get a point out there.
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It's also anti-mustachian to eat out, and many of us do that. I think the approach of Rage is the most sensible - do it if you want but admit that it is a luxury and not technically a necessity. We can all create reasonable excuses for what we do, but that doesn't change the fact that certain things we spend money on are not necessary. And if we have anything other than mortgage debt or worse yet are in a hair on fire situation, it truly should be challenged.
And I agree with Emily that shutting down criticism because it makes us uncomfortable kinda goes against the spirit of this blog. Yes, it's uncomfortable to have someone call you on something. And yes, it can be done more diplomatically at times. But what's the point if we all just validate each other and create some sort of virtual cheering squad for all of our financial choices?
I guess it's a fine line. I took issue with someone on another thread for calling having children a luxury akin to owning an Escalade. I guess in some respects I'm saying that certain life choices are unassailable (within reason), and probably there's a slight contradiction there, except for the fact that we're talking about human beings rather than things or services.
But house cleaning? It absolutely should be something that is put under the Mustachian microscope. You might come to the conclusion that you will keep the service for sanity reasons, but it is not a financial sacred cow.
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I'm saying empathy costs you nothing and that cleaning can be very overwhelming for some people.
How I post is not determined by what it costs *me,* but by what I genuinely believe is the most helpful in a big-picture way to both the person I'm posting to, as well as the general tone of the board and others who may be reading.
MMM site and forum are unique compared to other financial sites in that instead of taking the position of immediate comfort in a response along the lines of "I know. Your life sounds so hard. You definitely deserve a cleaning person, and while you're at it consider getting takeout, and paying someone to do your yard work" we tend to look at a bigger picture, longer term path to happiness that is built on self-sufficiency and working toward true freedom vs. the comfort of avoiding any emotional stress that may accompany having to dust our own furniture.
I personally believe that while potentially immediately uncomfortable, this stance is actually far more beneficial in the big picture/long-term, and as such, the more empathetic approach.
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That not even closing to what I was saying so never mind. Carry on.
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Circumstances differ. What is Mustachian for me might not be for someone else. If I had chosen to have
a sacred cow, a kid in my house, I might not choose to spend money on housecleaning or some of the other things I spend money on right now. It really does save me money to have someone else do some of the cleaning for me, though. This is a calculable fact in my life, and this is probably able to be calculated for everyone. In any case, if you have not reached your savings goals or have any consumer debts whatsoever, you should not even consider having a housekeeper, gardener, etc etc etc. (yet). I think Mudge is trying to say that facepunching is okay but harsh or possibly ignorant judgment of others is not. Having said that, the discomfort I feel as a result of a facepunch is what ultimately leads me to change my behavior so that my longer term goals are reached. Being influenced out of the ruts we are in and out of the consumer stances many people have before reading these pages is what everyone, including people who believe they have reached maximum mustache growth, need sometimes. Sorry... I don't know where my little rant is going. I could use a facepunch for wasting words.
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I'm surprised at the narrow views on this. I get that it's a face punch type expense but you can't just generalize this with "I can do it so you can do it same as me" response. Cleaning is actually a very individualized thing. Cleaning (or the thought of) is very stressful for some. That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't do it but just because you can suck it up and just get it done doesn't mean it's less stressful for them. Cleaning is as much mental as it is physical. Occasional vacuuming and toilet cleaning? I could say that's not even cleaning to me but clearly it is to some. It's fine to say that a cleaning service is a luxury expense and one to be avoided but do you really have to minimize someone's feeling to say that?
If the concept of taking basic care of themselves is extremely stressful to the point of causing mental problems, that person has much bigger issues than a dirty toilet and should seek professional help.
Just so we are clear, "taking care of oneself" =/= "taking care of a family of four, including a toddler"
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Lol, in your opinion but thankfully the only person one needs to justify their spending to is theirself and/or a spouse. Having an extra 45 minutes per week because I have a housekeeper keeps me sane. I am grad student, with a kid. I was getting so stressed not being able to get everything done, it was affecting my health. Every female professor I know has recommended that women in the workforce (with kids) have one because really there is only so many hours in a day. I'd rather work an extra year than try to juggle it all and get myself sick from stress.
I am a female professor with a kid. I highly recommend cleaning your own house (insisting that your SO also pulls their own weight), or figuring out how you are living so close to the edge that a requirement of occasional vacuuming and toilet cleaning could make you sick from stress. Seriously, it sounds like there're other larger life issues that need to be addressed if straits are so very dire.
Well, one kid.
I am away from the house 10 hours a day. I get 15 minutes to myself at the end of the day before I pass out. I awake 7.5 hours later when the youngest (who is two) wakes up.
A full time, two kids (one a toddler), and zero down time is pretty darned stressful.
When someone invents a magical semiconductor company in my town that allows me to work less than 40-45 hours a week, sign me up!
It's the time that it takes to do things, plain and simple.
(When the toddler was a baby? I was so exhausted from night time feedings that I was asleep before my older son 4 days a week).
Is there any way that your kids can go to bed earlier so that you have more time to yourself to unwind and refresh your mind and spirit? I know the saving grace in our household of bad sleepers and high need kids is that they all are in bed by 7 p.m. The infant goes to bed around 6:30. I know this is harder to swing when you work full time, but for the time being, it might be helpful to prioritize your own sanity and try to put them to bed earlier.
We go to bed around 8:30 at the moment, because the infant wakes us up 4-6 times a night. But this still manages to give us around an hour and a half of blissful quiet.
Oh man, I have tried SO HARD. In my ideal world, the toddler would be asleep at 7:30 pm, and the 8 year old at 8:15, and I could go to sleep at nine.
The toddler won't go to sleep. He refuses. He will absolutely stand in his crib and yell "Mama! MOMMY. DADDY!! MOMMY!" (and then eventually his brother's name and my actual given name). Forever. At least 30 minutes, even longer. We spent a week or more trying to get him down earlier. He just won't go down. He's loud, then we can't get his brother to sleep (who luckily, once he IS asleep, sleeps like the dead. The little guy is a light sleeper, so at least his 1 am yelling doesn't wake up the big one.) The stubborn is strong in this one.
So I kind of gave up. I realized that I was coming home, killing myself to get dinner on the table at 6 pm (when I walk in the door between 5:30 and 5:40), so I could get him to bed at 7:30...and he was awake until 8:45 anyway. All the cooking and prep on the weekend, chopping veggies after he's in bed. Ugh.
My silver lining - the time change is coming soon, right???
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She does laundry
You mean she puts the laundry in the machine that does the laundry for her?
Anyways, if I could buy a $30k robot that would do all my housekeeping forever, I might actually do that. But I really dislike the idea of other people in my house touching my stuff.
What about putting the laundry away, like hanging or folding? That's the biggest hassle.
Why would you need to do any of those things?
So your clothes aren't a wrinkled mess?
Of course they are.
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I dont use a cleaning service, but I probably should.
This is a response from the other side - I dont/ cant bring myself to pay, and it is cheapness, not frugal.
The once or twice I tried it, either the quality decreased, or I noticed may husband and kids stopped doing their share. So I ended up with less vacuuming but more pick up and dishes, so my workload did not end. Then I realized the cleaning lady drove quite a bit nicer car than us, and I truly hated the cost - about $200 per month at least.
Now, I live a dirtier lifestyle. I like clean bathrooms, kitchen counters, and my clothes so that happens. I have forced myself to stop worrying about the rest. It gets cleaned every 2 wks to month only now. (unless a family member actually does their assigned chore).
This means that we rarely invite anyone over, and it truly reduces our friendships.
Am I lazy? Yes!
Instead of cleaning, I cook, weed, mow, finish home repairs, complete my own taxes, spend family time, etc.
, I have been working 12 hr days this month when in town, and often travel for work 5.5 days a week. I could either spend all saturday cleaning , or live with the dust bunnies, or hire a cleaner. Today I grocery shopped, helped my son clean the pet cage, preserved 15 lb of carrots, cooked pot roast, taught my daughter how to make mashed potatoes, washed and hung three loads of laundry, and drove my son to and from his class. Should I feel bad about choosing to go to a movie with my family (and checking out MMM?) instead of cleaning?
Heck no! Cheers to those who choose to make budgets cuts that dont matter - perhaps keeping to one car or not eating out, to pay for those things that do ( friends and family and of course reading).
Its all about your personal balance of money, goals, living life, FIRE.
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I'm surprised at the narrow views on this. I get that it's a face punch type expense but you can't just generalize this with "I can do it so you can do it same as me" response. Cleaning is actually a very individualized thing. Cleaning (or the thought of) is very stressful for some. That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't do it but just because you can suck it up and just get it done doesn't mean it's less stressful for them. Cleaning is as much mental as it is physical. Occasional vacuuming and toilet cleaning? I could say that's not even cleaning to me but clearly it is to some. It's fine to say that a cleaning service is a luxury expense and one to be avoided but do you really have to minimize someone's feeling to say that?
+1 Like a lot of "women's work" cleaning is assumed to be something easy, unskilled, that everyone can easily do. If someone said they had tried doing yard work but found it very physically stressful, everyone would understand. People would recommend getting rid of the yard, of course, but housekeeping is not so easily avoided.
I mean, if someone came on here saying they'd tried working out and dieting on their own but they really felt weight watchers and a gym helped them keep the weight off and how much was reasonable to pay for that, people would suggest creative ways to save money on those services, cheaper services to try, and all sorts of tips and tricks that they used to minimize their reliance on those services and keep up the motivation to do away with them all together. They wouldn't respond, "Is this a joke question? Just eat less, you fat slob."
I work at my job about 65 hours per week. I have a cleaning person come every other week. She costs me 20 per hour when she's working, and I can make up to 175 per hour when I'm working. Makes sense to me to have someone help me out with this rather than use my time that way. If I'm doing it, I am losing 155 dollars an hour. If I work an extra hour and a half once a month, I have made enough for her to clean my house two times.
That makes more sense to me than your logic about 30000 paying for 100 dollars in cleaning or whatever. Buy whatever you want if you are reaching your other goals and are not in debt. You'll still FIRE without being an extremist mustachian if you set reasonable goals.
But do you have a job where you can choose to work extra hours? And do you actually do so? If the answer to both isn't yes, then you're buying into the opportunity cost fallacy. I mean, there are lots of things you could pay people for for less than your hourly rate. Going out to restaurants, for example, would seem like a bargain. But obviously there's a limit to that.
Point 1 is that most people find it more satisfying to do multiple things a day rather than burn out just focusing on their specialty. See: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/
Point 2 is that you don't really make 175 dollars a hour. Check out the Real Hourly Wage Calculator. http://mustachecalc.com/
Point 3 is the opportunity cost of not investing the money. Rage's point about its costing $30k has more to do with paying for it for the rest of your life and in your case it sounds like you wouldn't keep paying for it after you retired. However, similar to Rage's point, you have to take the total cost of housecleaning during your working years multiplied by the rate of return you would have gotten for investing it. That's how much it really costs you.
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Oh man, I have tried SO HARD. In my ideal world, the toddler would be asleep at 7:30 pm, and the 8 year old at 8:15, and I could go to sleep at nine.
The toddler won't go to sleep. He refuses. He will absolutely stand in his crib and yell "Mama! MOMMY. DADDY!! MOMMY!" (and then eventually his brother's name and my actual given name). Forever. At least 30 minutes, even longer. We spent a week or more trying to get him down earlier. He just won't go down. He's loud, then we can't get his brother to sleep (who luckily, once he IS asleep, sleeps like the dead. The little guy is a light sleeper, so at least his 1 am yelling doesn't wake up the big one.) The stubborn is strong in this one.
So I kind of gave up. I realized that I was coming home, killing myself to get dinner on the table at 6 pm (when I walk in the door between 5:30 and 5:40), so I could get him to bed at 7:30...and he was awake until 8:45 anyway. All the cooking and prep on the weekend, chopping veggies after he's in bed. Ugh.
My silver lining - the time change is coming soon, right???
I'll keep this brief, since this is a thread about housecleaning and not getting kids to sleep.
That sounds like a very difficult situation. You definitely have my sympathies, especially regarding the toddler yelling. Does he nap a lot at daycare? Or is he getting a late afternoon nap that could be reasonably dropped? For us our kids stopped napping at a fairly early age because they were such crap sleepers during light hours. This made it easier to put them to bed early. I know some sleep experts say, "sleep begets sleep" (i.e. the more they sleep during the day the more they will at night), but a late afternoon nap will push the bedtime later. See if the daycare will cooperate with getting the kiddo not to nap after 4 p,m. or even 3. Just spitfiring, trying to get you some much needed free time. :)
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This has been really interesting. Getting the kids trained to help is a lot of work, but I can see it starting to pay off. I think we may end up paying for housecleaning in the future if we can meet some other financial goals first. Or perhaps I can get everyone pitching in harmoniously and we can spend the money elsewhere. I didn't mention that I want to take some classes in the future to advance my career, and wonder if house cleaning service would become a "necessity" at that point. My spouse also wporks full time +, the 8 year old is autistic (high functioning), so coaching him through general hygiene and organization takes more effort than normal. Fortunately, we dont have a lot of clutter, don't partipate in tons of activities, and my commute is short. I can see how this is a really individualized decision before FI. If we're still working after FI, I will probably feel like we deserve it so we can more fully enjoy our time off work.
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I'm surprised at the narrow views on this. I get that it's a face punch type expense but you can't just generalize this with "I can do it so you can do it same as me" response. Cleaning is actually a very individualized thing. Cleaning (or the thought of) is very stressful for some. That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't do it but just because you can suck it up and just get it done doesn't mean it's less stressful for them. Cleaning is as much mental as it is physical. Occasional vacuuming and toilet cleaning? I could say that's not even cleaning to me but clearly it is to some. It's fine to say that a cleaning service is a luxury expense and one to be avoided but do you really have to minimize someone's feeling to say that?
If the concept of taking basic care of themselves is extremely stressful to the point of causing mental problems, that person has much bigger issues than a dirty toilet and should seek professional help.
Just so we are clear, "taking care of oneself" =/= "taking care of a family of four, including a toddler"
What are the other three people doing? Being a doormat would definitely be a lot of work - good thing it's optional!
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It's also anti-mustachian to eat out, and many of us do that. I think the approach of Rage is the most sensible - do it if you want but admit that it is a luxury and not technically a necessity. We can all create reasonable excuses for what we do, but that doesn't change the fact that certain things we spend money on are not necessary. And if we have anything other than mortgage debt or worse yet are in a hair on fire situation, it truly should be challenged.
And I agree with Emily that shutting down criticism because it makes us uncomfortable kinda goes against the spirit of this blog. Yes, it's uncomfortable to have someone call you on something. And yes, it can be done more diplomatically at times. But what's the point if we all just validate each other and create some sort of virtual cheering squad for all of our financial choices?
I guess it's a fine line. I took issue with someone on another thread for calling having children a luxury akin to owning an Escalade. I guess in some respects I'm saying that certain life choices are unassailable (within reason), and probably there's a slight contradiction there, except for the fact that we're talking about human beings rather than things or services.
But house cleaning? It absolutely should be something that is put under the Mustachian microscope. You might come to the conclusion that you will keep the service for sanity reasons, but it is not a financial sacred cow.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. We just recently got a housekeeper and she only comes once a month. That three hours not being on my plate is wonderful but if I lost my job this would be the first thing to go and the second would be the car. Just as we decided that we would do best right now with two cars (another OMG for this group, lol), we decided that right now our life was best served to have a housekeeper. I am a grad student which mean I work six days a week, plus use the seventh to study for my class. My husband just got a postdoc position but it is an hour commute and we have a child. I could give up things that are important to me, like relaxation, sleep, spending time with family, getting good grades or advancing my thesis work to get that three hours to clean or I could live in a house which I don't feel comfortable having guests in or I could pay $100/month and do everything I want and feel happy with my space. My choice, and I am happy with it. :)
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I think it is really easy for some people that never had kids, live a minimalist lifestyle, have a partner that helps, makes it very easy to criticize others. I was a f.t. college student with 3 little boys & a hubby working 2 jobs and I had to clean-could not afford to hire it. Yes having kids is a lot of work. Once i got a good job we paid for a cleaner once per month to do the deep cleaning-totally worth it! Then when kids grew up got rid of it & year later got it back. Then retired got rid of it until I realized that I could pay someone $50/month or do it myself & then pay my Chiro to put my back & neck back in for a cost of $40. Anyone can pick up after themselves, do dishes etc. What most cleaners do is the deeper cleaning & really getting the bathrooms & kitchens sparkling, etc. Yes it is a great feeling to walk into a home where the entire home is clean at once.
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I'm surprised at the narrow views on this. I get that it's a face punch type expense but you can't just generalize this with "I can do it so you can do it same as me" response. Cleaning is actually a very individualized thing. Cleaning (or the thought of) is very stressful for some. That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't do it but just because you can suck it up and just get it done doesn't mean it's less stressful for them. Cleaning is as much mental as it is physical. Occasional vacuuming and toilet cleaning? I could say that's not even cleaning to me but clearly it is to some. It's fine to say that a cleaning service is a luxury expense and one to be avoided but do you really have to minimize someone's feeling to say that?
If the concept of taking basic care of themselves is extremely stressful to the point of causing mental problems, that person has much bigger issues than a dirty toilet and should seek professional help.
Just so we are clear, "taking care of oneself" =/= "taking care of a family of four, including a toddler"
What are the other three people doing? Being a doormat would definitely be a lot of work - good thing it's optional!
The 2 year old is really really awesome at making a huge mess in a very short period of time. He *is* very good at putting his shoes on the shelf, and sometimes cleaning up his blocks, and taking his leftover plate into the kitchen, though sometimes he throws it in the trash can.
Part of that is just teaching the toddler. He wants to feed himself. So we let him. He needs to practice. Of course it means that yogurt gets all over the floor, or the couch if you don't catch him fast enough, and cracker crumbs, and whatever else (hey, more cleanup!) He likes to drink water from a cup, but sometimes spills it (more cleanup!)
The 8 year old is really bad at his shoes, but is starting to make his own lunch (PB&J), and is starting to help with dishes (he's very short, and our counters are on the high side). Of course he can help "pick up toys", and does.
My husband does 100% of the laundry, the yard work, and the trash/recycling when he's not traveling (which really comes and goes).
This leaves me with 100% of the meal planning, grocery shopping, and cooking.
What's left that isn't listed?
Piles of dishes from all of the cooking.
Putting away books and toys (see above: toddler)
Going through/ recycling the piles and piles of papers that come home from the school. I shudder at what it will be like when I have two in school.
Vacuuming, dusting, scrubbing the sinks, counters, toilets, bath tub. Washing the windows. Mopping floors, cleaning out the microwave, fridge, toaster oven. Changing sheets.
I'm sure I'm missing something. So: the three things above? Dishes, toys, papers...yeah, husband and I do that (with our very few hours in the day and weekend.)
The rest? I farm out. Look, pre-kid days, we did the "2-hours on Saturday" thing. Our rules were: laundry doesn't count, and dishes leftover from last night do not count (we did not have a dishwasher). After the first kid, and the second kid, we just cannot set aside two hours, or even one hour. Being at school and/or daycare for 40 hours a week, well you know, my kids want to hang out with me. Go to the park, the pool, play cards, or cars, or whatever. So do I sit at the table and color with my toddler? Do I take the kids to the pool? Or do I clean? I *already* feel like I'm kicking the little guy out of the kitchen so I can do my major cooking and prep, when all he really wants to do is play.
The baby/toddler years are short (relatively). When I find people commenting that "you should stop whining and do it, get everyone else to help!" It's never ever someone with a toddler and a full time job. And frankly, most people don't even remember the soul-crushing exhaustion that comes with having a toddler. Heck, I didn't remember between the two (it comes back when you do it again!) Something about how your memory recalls the good things and not the negative things.
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I'm surprised at the narrow views on this. I get that it's a face punch type expense but you can't just generalize this with "I can do it so you can do it same as me" response. Cleaning is actually a very individualized thing. Cleaning (or the thought of) is very stressful for some. That doesn't mean they can't/shouldn't do it but just because you can suck it up and just get it done doesn't mean it's less stressful for them. Cleaning is as much mental as it is physical. Occasional vacuuming and toilet cleaning? I could say that's not even cleaning to me but clearly it is to some. It's fine to say that a cleaning service is a luxury expense and one to be avoided but do you really have to minimize someone's feeling to say that?
If the concept of taking basic care of themselves is extremely stressful to the point of causing mental problems, that person has much bigger issues than a dirty toilet and should seek professional help.
Just so we are clear, "taking care of oneself" =/= "taking care of a family of four, including a toddler"
What are the other three people doing? Being a doormat would definitely be a lot of work - good thing it's optional!
Again, let's step back. a. We're not merely debating this in the abstract, we're talking about the specific circumstances of an individual, so any name-calling is directed at them. b. Name-calling is not the same thing as face-punching.
I get that defensiveness and excuse-itis for things that one finds very easy is frustrating. But at the point that I'm so good at something or my circumstances are so admirably suited towards a low-maintenance approach to it that I can't perceive a way to constructively offer solutions rather than just insulting the person's character, I recuse myself from the discussion.
(ps. Sorry, I realize both my comments have addressed yours, Zikoris, but I don't mean to call you out as the only one. I mean this in a general way.)
(pps. happy birthday :)
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Recently I had to have a cleaner (and some other help) for a few months due to a severe back injury. I so appreciated the service! Also, as someone who worked as a housecleaner and nanny to put herself through school, I want to thank the folks who hire us and treat us with respect.
I notice that our comfort level with mess/dirt is key. My widowed brother has had to focus on his job and young daughter and let the housecleaning slide - not to disgusting levels, but definitely noticeable. He is at peace with that. (And I agree with his choice of what to focus on.) A single mom friend of mine simply must have an impeccably neat house even if it means less time relaxing with her daughter and getting less sleep. (Can't say I agree with that, but it keeps her sane.)
For those of us who are single w/o kids - there are often housemates to deal with. For example, I share a place with an awesome housemate who is less of a neatnik that I am. I'm using this experience as a sort of Zen exercise in letting go of my need for things to be uber neat and clean. I'm not always successful, but figure cultivating letting go of my environment being how I want it to be is a probably good skill to have (especially for those times when you experience things you don't like/can't control).
Good luck to everyone!
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One thing about the house though, I've found that minimizing what I own and living small helps with the clean up, immensely. Empty spaces are easy to vacuum and dust. There is less stuff to pick up, or navigate around to get to a window to clean. The bane of my existence is still my tub/shower, but when I don't have that much else to clean then I have no option. Basically anyone I hire would be done within 1 hour, not even justifying the service.
TL;DR: have less stuff!
I think some basic systems can make a big difference. Keeping toys in a designated location - bedrooms or a play room - makes a HUGE difference (as well as having more relaxed standards in those designated rooms). Making putting your dishes in the sink a normal thing that everyone does immediately after eating makes a difference.
Keeping the overall volume of stuff down makes the HUGEST difference. One thing I remember is how little videos and video games we owned compared to literally everyone we knew, despite watching/playing as much or more - we just rented everything. We also used the library heavily.
These seem like reasonable things to say. Possibly the problem is not cleaning but organization. I think people tend to be talking about both when they're talking about housecleaners.
I think it's a global thing like a lot of things we discuss here. Like how people are convinced they need a car because they haven't questioned their basic assumptions about how long their commute is. I haven't yet found anything comprehensive like that for housekeeping. Or it's drowned out by all the people who are really visually oriented neat freaks who get satisfaction out of the act of cleaning and organizing. Just because something is work for you doesn't mean you're not a natural. In this area, I'm like the equivalent of someone who doesn't gain any satisfaction from saving money, doesn't care about money, and just needs help understanding why her checking account keeps getting overdrawn.
Personally I've never gone the housecleaner route but I do have people tell me that an area I've cleaned isn't clean enough. It looks clean enough to me. Shrug. Fortunately higher standards seems to be linked to higher ability, or rather, the reason I'm so bad at cleaning is because I can't see the clutter and dirt :) (Or as I prefer to put it, I'm better at focusing on what's important.) But it does make the point to me that what professional cleaners do is a magical skill.
So where's the middle ground? Here: http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/how-to-clean-your-house-in-20-minutes-a-day-for-30-days-131142
I like this, thanks! A lot of people post the unfuck your habitat website and it's never resonated with me.
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Everyone who has decluttered their house seems to say that this reduces the housework. I hope this is true, as I am trying to declutter. Perhaps we are looking at this from the wrong perspective? If the children have so many toys that cleaning is difficult, they may need less toys. If adults have difficulty cleaning their toys, perhaps they also need fewer toys (which might also make moving to a smaller house easier).
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I think it is really easy for some people that never had kids, live a minimalist lifestyle, have a partner that helps, makes it very easy to criticize others. I was a f.t. college student with 3 little boys & a hubby working 2 jobs and I had to clean-could not afford to hire it. Yes having kids is a lot of work. Once i got a good job we paid for a cleaner once per month to do the deep cleaning-totally worth it! Then when kids grew up got rid of it & year later got it back. Then retired got rid of it until I realized that I could pay someone $50/month or do it myself & then pay my Chiro to put my back & neck back in for a cost of $40. Anyone can pick up after themselves, do dishes etc. What most cleaners do is the deeper cleaning & really getting the bathrooms & kitchens sparkling, etc. Yes it is a great feeling to walk into a home where the entire home is clean at once.
Yes, it is the deeper cleaning. I'm not even going to admit how infrequently or shower gets cleaned.
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Everyone who has decluttered their house seems to say that this reduces the housework. I hope this is true, as I am trying to declutter. Perhaps we are looking at this from the wrong perspective? If the children have so many toys that cleaning is difficult, they may need less toys. If adults have difficulty cleaning their toys, perhaps they also need fewer toys (which might also make moving to a smaller house easier).
It does help....kinda....but staying on top of the clutter is also time consuming. Some you can minimize by not buying junk, but some is less avoidable.
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DH and I don't, because we don't want to spend spend the money, but chore division is the by FAR the primary thing we fight about. At some point, we might break down and get housecleaners on the theory that it's cheaper and healthier solution than a divorce. This would likely happen after I get pregnant/we have kids plus full-time jobs.
This topic comes up every few months, with people absolutely convinced they are right. Like anything else, deciding if it's facepunch worthy requires the facts of each situation (although it's 100% facepunch worthy if you still have debt and aren't physically disabled).
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DH and I don't, because we don't want to spend spend the money, but chore division is the by FAR the primary thing we fight about. At some point, we might break down and get housecleaners on the theory that it's cheaper and healthier solution than a divorce. This would likely happen after I get pregnant/we have kids plus full-time jobs.
This topic comes up every few months, with people absolutely convinced they are right. Like anything else, deciding if it's facepunch worthy requires the facts of each situation (although it's 100% facepunch worthy if you still have debt and aren't physically disabled).
You also have to consider what is disabled? For example, I screwed up my trapezius muscle in college and now it locks up to point of constricting blood flow to my occipital lobe and cause pain as the inability to see. If I take my meds, anti-inflammatories daily and my muscle relaxants both Friday and Saturday night, I normally live, well, normally. But if I miss a dose of my muscle relaxants (which knock me out for about 13hours), I am down for the count. And even with all this, I get flair ups. I try to save much of my fun money for massage, get groupons etc, but often the worse flare up come with stress and extra busyness of my life, just the time when I can afford it to happen nor do I have the time for the massage. I would not consider myself disabled nor would the state, but it is a factor I consider. Pay the same for a massage, but then I need to cut out an hour to two for myself plus don't have the chores done, or pay the $100 for the cleaning, reduce the items on my plate and give me time for relaxation and/or some flexibility for when things pop up. I made my choice because it worked. If a person is coming on asking for, so how do I cut, then yea, facepunch away, but everyone has their items they have chosen that matter. As long as it is a conscious choice and people are not whining about the consequences, why does it matter? I do find the comments about how much it adds up to amusing given that not one person made a comment when you have kids and trust me, my daughter costs way more than my housekeeper.
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DH and I don't, because we don't want to spend spend the money, but chore division is the by FAR the primary thing we fight about. At some point, we might break down and get housecleaners on the theory that it's cheaper and healthier solution than a divorce. This would likely happen after I get pregnant/we have kids plus full-time jobs.
This topic comes up every few months, with people absolutely convinced they are right. Like anything else, deciding if it's facepunch worthy requires the facts of each situation (although it's 100% facepunch worthy if you still have debt and aren't physically disabled).
You also have to consider what is disabled? For example, I screwed up my trapezius muscle in college and now it locks up to point of constricting blood flow to my occipital lobe and cause pain as the inability to see. If I take my meds, anti-inflammatories daily and my muscle relaxants both Friday and Saturday night, I normally live, well, normally. But if I miss a dose of my muscle relaxants (which knock me out for about 13hours), I am down for the count. And even with all this, I get flair ups. I try to save much of my fun money for massage, get groupons etc, but often the worse flare up come with stress and extra busyness of my life, just the time when I can afford it to happen nor do I have the time for the massage. I would not consider myself disabled nor would the state, but it is a factor I consider. Pay the same for a massage, but then I need to cut out an hour to two for myself plus don't have the choose done, or pay the $100 for the cleaning, reduce the items on my plate and give me time for relaxation and/or some flexibility for when things pop up. I made my choice because it worked. If a person is coming on asking for, so how do I cut, then yea, facepunch away, but everyone has their items they have chosen that matter. As long as it is a conscious choice and people are not whining about the consequences, why does it matter? I do find the comments about how much it adds up to amusing given that not one person made a comment when you have kids and trust me, my daughter costs way more than my housekeeper.
Yes, I meant 100% face punch worthy if you come on here with a case study. I would not give out unsolicited face punches, however. I think people here can figure out if it's a luxury (which I think it is) worth spending money on or not. (And I'm also not going to say there is a specific definition to disabled - in fact, depending, it can also include the cognitive disabled). I just find it amazing how this topic brings out the self-righteous far more quickly than any other topic. Having a housecleaner does not make you a bad person! It just IS a luxury most of the time.
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Making putting your dishes in the sink a normal thing that everyone does immediately after eating makes a difference.
I know not everyone has (or wants to use) a dishwasher, but for those of us who do, am I the only one who doesn't want anyone to put anything in the sink? Just put it in the dishwasher... it's right next to the the sink! If you leave a bunch of dishes in the sink, they get filled with water from handwashing, etc, pick up additional crap from when I rinse off the cutting board, etc., and then just get nasty over time. In the dishwasher, they quickly dry on the rack until we have enough for a load.
I know putting stuff in the sink is ingrained in our culture somehow as the responsible thing to do, but I'd even rather have dirty dishes on the counter so I can see them and put them in the dishwasher, and so I have actual room in the sink to wash the items that can't go in the dishwasher. Ok, rant over.
If someone said they had tried doing yard work but found it very physically stressful, everyone would understand.
I mean, if someone came on here saying they'd tried working out and dieting on their own but they really felt weight watchers and a gym helped them keep the weight off and how much was reasonable to pay for that, people would suggest creative ways to save money on those services, cheaper services to try, and all sorts of tips and tricks that they used to minimize their reliance on those services and keep up the motivation to do away with them all together. They wouldn't respond, "Is this a joke question? Just eat less, you fat slob."
I really disagree with this. Have you met people here?
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I know not everyone has (or wants to use) a dishwasher, but for those of us who do, am I the only one who doesn't want anyone to put anything in the sink? Just put it in the dishwasher... it's right next to the the sink! If you leave a bunch of dishes in the sink, they get filled with water from handwashing, etc, pick up additional crap from when I rinse off the cutting board, etc., and then just get nasty over time. In the dishwasher, they quickly dry on the rack until we have enough for a load.
I know putting stuff in the sink is ingrained in our culture somehow as the responsible thing to do, but I'd even rather have dirty dishes on the counter so I can see them and put them in the dishwasher, and so I have actual room in the sink to wash the items that can't go in the dishwasher. Ok, rant over.
No, you are not the only one. I just ranted to my husband about this. Put the things we wash by hand on the counter, not in the sink, unless perhaps you are soaking a pot or pan. It's so much easier that way.
I don't want my kids loading the dishwasher, though, because they don't load it right. Neither does my mother, to be honest.
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No, you are not the only one. I just ranted to my husband about this. Put the things we wash by hand on the counter, not in the sink, unless perhaps you are soaking a pot or pan. It's so much easier that way.
I don't want my kids loading the dishwasher, though, because they don't load it right. Neither does my mother, to be honest.
This is also a peeve of mine. I put hand-wash items next to the sink, so I can still use the sink. I've been to other people's houses where the sink is full (sometimes overflowing) with dishes and it's impossible to even wash your hands! Ugh.
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If someone said they had tried doing yard work but found it very physically stressful, everyone would understand.
I mean, if someone came on here saying they'd tried working out and dieting on their own but they really felt weight watchers and a gym helped them keep the weight off and how much was reasonable to pay for that, people would suggest creative ways to save money on those services, cheaper services to try, and all sorts of tips and tricks that they used to minimize their reliance on those services and keep up the motivation to do away with them all together. They wouldn't respond, "Is this a joke question? Just eat less, you fat slob."
I really disagree with this. Have you met people here?
Ha ha, okay, perhaps more wishful thinking on my part than honest description. But it does seem to me that people are more likely to propose solutions to those issues in addition to face punches rather than jumping straight to flabbergasted shock and disgust.
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I have a lady that comes 2 hours each week and she charges $13/hour.
I just this month cut it down to her coming 1 time and for 3 hours, I hope to cut it down even more.
My boys are at the age where they can help a lot more and my youngest is 3 and not nearly as messy as he was a year ago.
I know people just want to punch me, but I am proud of myself for not using her near as much now, I really think I can keep it as clean as we like, without going crazy, I will use her 3 hours a month to deep clean.
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After discovering MMM and doing the math, the cleaning service was going to cost us $37,500 over 10yrs.
I never think of things in these terms. So what if it's X amount over the course of ten years, XXX amount over twenty years? The real question is, is it worthwhile today and is it worth whatever percentage of today's income? In this case, you could say, Is it worthwhile to put strain on your family each and every week of your lives for ten years so you'll have this amount saved?
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If you need to pay for housecleaning it's most likely an indication that something is wrong. Your house is too big, your time is too overbooked, you are too lazy. All of those are fixable, but none by hiring a cleaning service.
+1. If you need a housecleaner, I think you've got an excellent opportunity for some decluttering and simplifying of your life.
Disagree.
I own my own business, my husband owns his own businesses. We have a young child (5 years old) and my disabled mother-in-law lives with us. Our weekly housecleaner is some of the best money that we spend. Why?
1. I do not learn a new skill by cleaning toilets, showers, vacuuming, mopping, dusting each week, unlike when I can teach myself electrical wiring or other things DIY with my properties.
2. We pay her about $22/hr. for 2 hours of work each week. I literally do need to budget my time and have a to-do list a mile long of projects, both in my businesses and at home that need my attention. My rate is much higher than $22/hr. And it IS that rate because of #1 (not acquiring any new skills and actually wasting my time not learning other skills).
3. I do not like cleaning. I'm spending $ on my values.
4. I already spend too much time doing laundry, dishes, cooking home cooked meals, etc. and don't spend enough time with my 5 year old son. I've thought about having her do my laundry but my husband doesn't want her touching his underwear.
In my world, it is worth every penny.
I also disagree. At the point in my life when I SHOULD have hired housekeeping, I was the one doing 100% of the work. As you said, I was an adult who learned nothing from cleaning the toilets and mopping the floor. I was resentful and angry every time I cleaned, and that didn't do anything positive for the household.
When my children grew older, I did involve them, and they did learn -- but I'm talking about the years when they were small children.
Now, at this point in our lives, the house doesn't get as dirty as it used to. My teens are fairly self-sufficient, and they don't require nearly as much hands-on work as they did as toddlers. I mean, they clean their own bathrooms, do their own laundry, and feed themselves. Today housekeeping isn't something that would be a "reasonable spend" for us.
Someday in the future, when I'm really old and can't manage heavy stuff like bathroom cleaning and vacuuming, then it'll be worthwhile to consider housekeeping again.
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Personally, I am SO thankful for those that have their house cleaned. I owned a residential cleaning business for almost 20 years and that is how I made all my money. But with that aside let me give you a little inside view from the thousands of houses that we cleaned.
There was always an agreement that 1 or more persons in the household was suppose to clean.... rarely did that ever happen. But what would happen is that it would 100% of the time cause arguments. I've seen a many a spouse that started out sleeping on the couch because of house cleaning. There are SO many more things that can be said about having a GOOD (<<< key word) house cleaner and not much of it has to do with a clean house at all. If I was a worker bee I'd rather live 50 years with a clean house and pay to have it done than to waste my precious time on earth cleaning my own house. Is it good for saving money? If you will make enough money to begin with you won't have to worry about that part of it.
I have a girl now that is wanting me to go in to the residential cleaning business with her. I might do it if the conditions are right. This time I bring the experience to the table so I will train her for a few months and then all I'll do is the marketing (which is what I love). And my marketing usually doesn't focus on a clean house at all.
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Many people on this thread live in a "perfect world".
I do not live in a perfect world and I pay others to do what I do not want to do.
Go for it. Hire a house cleaner if it is something that you do not have the time or the inclination to do.
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Joke question?
Obviously it's ridiculous to pay someone to clean up your shit in all but extremely extenuating circumstances (illness, injury, etc). If you do it, recognize that it's facepunch worthy.
I don't get it. How hard is it to clean up after yourself? Assuming you're not a complete slob, it shouldn't take much time or effort.
I think it's universally accepted that two adults, two dogs, two kids plus two part time kids are a lot to clean up after.
Not if everybody cleans up after themselves. Remember when parents used to expect their kids to not make a mess, and do regular chores?
Please let me know how to teach the dogs to clean up after themselves. Once that is settled the baby will likely be a toddler and you can explain to me how to get her to do all her own cleaning.
I'm actually not paying a housekeeper, instead going with the slipping standards solution, but it is not as simple as cleaning up after myself and my husband doing the same. The dogs don't vacuum. The toddler won't do dishes, laundry. or clean her bathroom.
In the long run I think I'd rather retire later and have time with my family now, using the money on a housekeeper. Depends how dirty the house gets with the lower standards plan.
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I may be the most unmustachian on this topic, and don't really care. I have had a housecleaner before I was married in a small apt to having a full time nanny (separate conversation). Best decisions of my life, may not be best for others, but sure is for me.
Why? I absolutely despise cleaning. I can't explain why, but I always have even as a child. I hated it so much that even as a child with a messy room, my parents wouldn't let me go out until my room was clean. My friends, would come over, and then help me clean. It frustrated my parents, that I remember one life changing conversation.
My parents (the ultra mustachians) : "What you think you are going to have so much money to throw away, that you will hire someone to clean!?!'
ME: "There are people you can pay to clean, how much extra money do I need to have?"
Parents: " (long conversation about money) essentially lots in income and saved in networth"
This seriously became my goal in life was to make enough money that I could hire someone to do my cleaning. Essentially, I learned that money is merely a tool that allows me to do the things that bring enjoyment and value to my life, and outsource the things that must be done, but either I do not enjoy, takes me way too long to do. To be honest, I am not a neat freak, in fact, I am not tidy at all. I personally don't see the need to clean as much, but I know that it needs to be done when my family makes comments.
There is a conversation of time and money. I am surprised at the number of people here are only seeing the money cost on the impact of FIRE. What about the current quality of life? I will post shortly on my justification.