Author Topic: House Robbers  (Read 15660 times)

DollarBill

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House Robbers
« on: May 24, 2014, 05:05:44 AM »
The last couple of days I've seen a few police cars in the neighborhood. I found out today that 3 houses have been broken into in the last 3 days. My neighbor came by and said he saw 2 kids hopping fences in the back yard and at one point he saw them carrying a sledge hammer but didn't confront them or call the police (WTF??). Oh how I wish I was the one who seen them! All were done during mid day and one was next to a police officer that always parks his duty vehicle in the driveway. I live in a good neighborhood in a good part of town, in a cul-de-sac, in the mid-west, and live on the out skirts of the city of 500,000 (It doesn't get more vanilla the this) .

I know it can happen any where and any time but I'm wondering what would you do at this point to protect yourself and your belongings?? Security system, video cameras, make your house look dumpy or just count my blessings for not being a target? Also, I will be moving next year...do you have any tips for the new house? Is this something you think about when buying a house? I thought I did good with this one

I do have two medium size dogs so maybe that's one reason I wasn't targeted but they are older. One of the houses had a couple of dogs and bark a lot but they are small. I did go door to door to let everyone know what was going on and I will make some fliers for other houses.

Primm

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2014, 05:12:46 AM »
A friend of my dad's who is a police inspector said the best deterrent against burglars is a dog. Any dog, because they're unpredictable. So looks like you've got that one covered already.

BPA

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2014, 05:25:12 AM »
I have a dog, live in a neighbourhood where people know each other well and look out for each other, and have little stuff thieves would be interested in.  I have basically no jewelry and my fanciest piece of electronics is my nine year old 32" Sony Bravia. 

Thegoblinchief

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2014, 05:53:46 AM »
Unless police response in your area is fantastic, alarm systems aren't worth it.

Don't have stuff worth stealing, or if you do, don't display it in the window. Back up irreplaceable photos and stuff with a cloud backup. You can replace the computer but you can't replace pictures of your kids, etc.

Expect the police to do jack shit. House burglaries are way, way down their priority list.

chasesfish

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2014, 06:02:38 AM »
Dog and firearms.  I am not really worried about a break-in when I'm not at home, its just stuff..  If I'm at home, that's what my friends Smith and Wesson are for. 

Basenji

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2014, 06:23:19 AM »
2 dogs, and when any stranger comes to the house (repair man, delivery, etc.) I lie and make a big deal about how my dogs want to kill people. One of my dogs would probably go home with anyone who asks. The other one might put up a fight and defend the house. I just like making it sound like they are uncontrollable vicious curs.  Who knows if this is working but I figure if someone is casing our neighborhood, they won't go first for the place with the "attack" dogs.

oldtoyota

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2014, 06:47:59 AM »
My neighbor did the same thing. He saw the guy who broke into my house in my backyard. He did not see him enter the house....but...call the police maybe? No, he did not do that. Sigh.

My back window got broken. Things that were not hidden got stolen. My laptop was hidden, so it did not get stolen. I started hiding my laptop after someone I knew had a burglar break into his apartment in NY while he was sleeping.

The burglar entered our house around noon on a weekday. Your 'hood doesn't matter. They will drive in from other places, leave their van somewhere, break into houses, and bring the loot back to the van. I am fairly certain that is what they did in our area.

Someone got caught. I am not sure if it was the same person or someone from the same gang, but he was caught kicking in a front door at noon on a weekday.

Things they did not bother stealing: guitar, amp, TVs. Our TVs are older than the hills.

Things they stole: one laptop and change.

We made it easy for this person, too. I'd asked spouse to move and chain up the ladder. That did not happen, and it provided easy entrance to the back window. Next time, we might just put a sign outside with instructions on how to break into our house. Or, maybe we'll leave them some cookies...like they are Santa Claus.

forestbound

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2014, 07:10:58 AM »
DOGS!

My neighbor got broken into. Her house was harder to break into than mine, I had a big TV and a new stereo system in plain view from my front porch. I also have a large dog who is intimidating if you didn't know him. He got extra dog food that day! I have also had cops look at my dog and say, you'll never be broken into. Little do they know he's a whimp with a great bark!

paddedhat

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2014, 07:35:17 AM »
Unless police response in your area is fantastic, alarm systems aren't worth it.

       I Don't know if thieves differ by location, but around here, this is 180* backwards. We live in a very rural area full of second homes. They are a frequent target of low grade shit bags that grab stuff like partially full whiskey bottles, and nearly worthless electronics. Bottom line with this demographic is that they work hard to avoid the attention that an alarm brings.  Local law will tell you that they investigate  patterns of thieves working down a street and skipping past anything that even has any kind of alarm notices in the yard, or stickers in the windows.
That's not to say that you need to get fleeced by a high pressure alarm sales outfit that wants you to give then $40 a month for life to "monitor" your house. There are plenty of low cost ways to DIY wireless motion detectors, horns and even dialers that contact the police VIA a dirt cheap SIM card from a prepaid cell phone. I know of at least one builder who swears that it isn't even that complicated, and just uses yard signs and window stickers on new homes. In a decade of having spec. homes for sale is many areas prone to this type of break in, he never had an issue. It only makes sense. Why kick a door in, and create a wailing siren for all the neighbors to hear, if you can find three other houses on the block without alarms?

rtrnow

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2014, 07:39:11 AM »
Unless police response in your area is fantastic, alarm systems aren't worth it.

       I Don't know if thieves differ by location, but around here, this is 180* backwards. We live in a very rural area full of second homes. They are a frequent target of low grade shit bags that grab stuff like partially full whiskey bottles, and nearly worthless electronics. Bottom line with this demographic is that they work hard to avoid the attention that an alarm brings.  Local law will tell you that they investigate  patterns of thieves working down a street and skipping past anything that even has any kind of alarm notices in the yard, or stickers in the windows.
That's not to say that you need to get fleeced by a high pressure alarm sales outfit that wants you to give then $40 a month for life to "monitor" your house. There are plenty of low cost ways to DIY wireless motion detectors, horns and even dialers that contact the police VIA a dirt cheap SIM card from a prepaid cell phone. I know of at least one builder who swears that it isn't even that complicated, and just uses yard signs and window stickers on new homes. In a decade of having spec. homes for sale is many areas prone to this type of break in, he never had an issue. It only makes sense. Why kick a door in, and create a wailing siren for all the neighbors to hear, if you can find three other houses on the block without alarms?

I work with public safety quite a bit. In general I hear that monitored alarms don't help that much bc it will usually be >10 minutes before they are even dispatched. However, you're right on that a loud siren will cause most burglars to grab something and run rather than hang around.

zataks

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2014, 08:04:06 AM »
Everything I've read/seen discussed on forums/reddit is that the illusion of security is essentially all you need. 
One security pro discussed the fact the even very high grade reinforced security doors are only rated to last up to 10 minutes against determined forced entry.  So, as he put it, you could spend thousands on reinforcing doors, security equipment, monitoring, etc.  Or you could put up signs/stickers, get a dog, lock everything, put valuables out of plain sight, and make it look like your neighbor's place is easier to break into than yours and be just about as safe.
I think most thieves want as little resistance and attention as possible. 


DollarBill

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2014, 08:15:22 AM »
I just read some good articles about prevention and here are some thoughts I think helped me to not be a victim. For one the other house that got robbed have six foot fences and all have basement windows a foot off the ground. On those houses I can't see someone in their back yard so it would be easy to jump the fence then your hidden. I have about 12 houses that have a clear view of my back yard and have wooden dowels in the window frame and my front yard is in the cul-de-sac circle the other houses were on the main streets. I also come home various times for lunch, never a set time and sometimes it's extended times (hehe). My dogs are out often and never on a leash or fenced in. Both are very friendly but one is part pit-bull and the other looks like a hunting dog (pointer like). I wear camo for my work...could be a deterrent :). I also use the dead lock on the door to the garage every night. I put up a baby gate to keep the dogs out of the basement so that would make some noise/buffer if someone was coming up the stairs. I think I'll look into some motion lights for the outside.

I do have a concealed carry license but don't carry often since I can't take it on the base but once I retire I most likely carry every day. I do have places that I conceal weapons in different rooms with magnets. So I'm always about an arms reach from taking the life of a robber :). I also have other alternatives such as I carry a self defensive pen (made by Uzi, has a glass breaker on one side) and peeper spray in my car. Lastly I keep a real like pistol BB gun (Like just like a M&P .40) on the night stand. I bought it for target practice in the garage. I leave it on the night stand in case if I do get robbed they will find that and stop looking for my real stache. I know I'm a bit nutty but a well prepared nut :).

This last Christmas I bought my Mom and Sister a "monkey fist" to put on their key chains. These things look colorful and harmless but believe me these little things can do some major damage with one swing. It has a 1inch steel ball in the end of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DsCxarlpN0
       

zataks

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2014, 08:27:42 AM »
This last Christmas I bought my Mom and Sister a "monkey fist" to put on their key chains. These things look colorful and harmless but believe me these little things can do some major damage with one swing. It has a 1inch steel ball in the end of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DsCxarlpN0

That looks like a modern-day version of what I thought was called a blackjack (a quick google search shows that as a baton though) which my grandfather told me a business acquaintance used to carry while traveling: about 12" of leather strap with a lead weight in the end.  Same principle. 

DollarBill

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2014, 09:13:17 AM »
This last Christmas I bought my Mom and Sister a "monkey fist" to put on their key chains. These things look colorful and harmless but believe me these little things can do some major damage with one swing. It has a 1inch steel ball in the end of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DsCxarlpN0

That looks like a modern-day version of what I thought was called a blackjack (a quick google search shows that as a baton though) which my grandfather told me a business acquaintance used to carry while traveling: about 12" of leather strap with a lead weight in the end.  Same principle.

I've heard that "Blackjacks" are illegal...wonder why when other things are deadly too.

I wonder what they would take if I was robbed. They can take my 47 inch TV because it blurry one the right side. They can have my laptop, it has a virus. Don't have any jewelry. They probably won't find my guns and everything else seems too big to take. It almost doesn't make much sense to rob people now-a-days since products are so cheap and they probably won't get much if they pawned it. Plus, all of the ways police can track you and the items that they stole and all the cameras every where.

zataks

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2014, 09:21:37 AM »
I've heard that "Blackjacks" are illegal...wonder why when other things are deadly too.

I wonder what they would take if I was robbed. They can take my 47 inch TV because it blurry one the right side. They can have my laptop, it has a virus. Don't have any jewelry. They probably won't find my guns and everything else seems too big to take. It almost doesn't make much sense to rob people now-a-days since products are so cheap and they probably won't get much if they pawned it. Plus, all of the ways police can track you and the items that they stole and all the cameras every where.

I heard that about blackjacks too.  But if it's (at least the leather ones) are essentially the same as the monkey fist, why aren't they illegal also?  I like the idea of the monkey fist for my GF though.

I think the same thing about my place.  The TV is nice but would be a PITA to steal and is scratched.  My laptop has the battery removed because it failed so only functions while plugged in.  I guess a tablet or the iPad I got for free is desirable but to me their replaceable (and the GF is the only that touches the Apple product).  The things I like in my home are the things only a really knowledgeable or dedicated thief would take: my bed, my handmade coffee table, some kitchen knives.  And these things have very little cash value but are valuable to me as comforts and tools.  I guess my toolbox is stealable but all the tools bargain bin pieces anyway so the weight of hauling that thing off isn't worth it. 

tl;dr: it's hard for me to envision someone finding stuff worth stealing my place too!

NinetyFour

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2014, 09:30:55 AM »


I do have a concealed carry license but don't carry often since I can't take it on the base but once I retire I most likely carry every day. I do have places that I conceal weapons in different rooms with magnets. So I'm always about an arms reach from taking the life of a robber :). I also have other alternatives such as I carry a self defensive pen (made by Uzi, has a glass breaker on one side) and peeper spray in my car. Lastly I keep a real like pistol BB gun (Like just like a M&P .40) on the night stand. I bought it for target practice in the garage. I leave it on the night stand in case if I do get robbed they will find that and stop looking for my real stache. I know I'm a bit nutty but a well prepared nut :).

This last Christmas I bought my Mom and Sister a "monkey fist" to put on their key chains. These things look colorful and harmless but believe me these little things can do some major damage with one swing. It has a 1inch steel ball in the end of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DsCxarlpN0
       

I'm glad I don't have to live like this--with a house full of weapons.

Greg

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2014, 11:17:29 AM »
Smash and grab robberies like this can only get so much.  And can happen anywhere anytime.  How well you defend your house against break in depends on how you want to live.  You can have a dog, alarm, weapons, fences, bars on the windows, all those things have different effects and all have their tradeoffs.

One thing about patio doors, or any glass door, or a place with nice big windows is the best lock won't keep someone from breaking the glass.  But, window film will make it less likely that they get in easily.  Most large window and all door glass is tempered, which means it breaks into tiny pieces when broken, leaving a big hole in say a patio door.  But, with window film on the inside, it becomes an opaque flexible sheet of unpleasant glass gravel a thief has to deal with instead.  It's also good for earthquake safety.   Armorcoat is one brand of glass film for this purpose.
http://www.armorcoatglass.com/

johnintaiwan

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2014, 11:18:38 AM »
       
[/quote]

I'm glad I don't have to live like this--with a house full of weapons.
[/quote]

not "have to" it should be "get to"


DollarBill

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2014, 11:35:57 AM »
Quote
I'm glad I don't have to live like this--with a house full of weapons.

Maybe you can hit them with your cell phone after you dial 911. I just timed myself making a call to a friend (pretending it's a 911 call) it took about 25 seconds to be connected. So I recommend you throw the phone first.

iris lily

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2014, 01:40:23 PM »
I live in the urban core and I think car or house alarms are fairly worthless. The perps around here perform "smash 'n grab" crimes, and two minutes of an alarm blaring is enough to grab the tv and run back out, down the street, toward the public housing projects where all of our stuff disappears.

I've lived here for 25  years and only once, just a few years ago, was our house broken into. And our little dogs barked but that did not deter the perps. That was a period where we were without a big bulldog, and I am somewhat relieved, because I'm not sure that the perps would have treated a bigger dog kindly.

We mistakenly had a flat screen tv right by the front windows which is very near the public sidewalk, so we were an attractive target. They broke down the back door (a steel door) and jumped over a dog gate, grabed the tv and ran back out.

Now we are back to having a large bulldog with a deep voice so I suppose he acts as a deterrent.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 01:43:54 PM by iris lily »

DollarBill

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2014, 01:57:03 PM »
"Perps" why does this make me laugh? lol

theSchmett

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2014, 02:34:59 PM »
Vanilla?

tganewbie

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2014, 02:39:51 PM »
We have laptops cabled up. Just in case. Cables are usually around $20.

Hope this helps.

mustachianteacher

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2014, 06:05:25 PM »
Our house was burglarized once, and my brother-in-law is a police officer; this is what they suggested at the time:

1. Get a dog, preferably a jumpy one. Then post a "Beware of dog" sign on the back gate just to be clear.

2. Always leave a light on somewhere in the house (and not the same one every day), and a radio, preferably to a talk station. Best bet: Get a small radio you can move from room-to-room. You want to give the impression that someone is home.

3. Don't make it possible for someone to peer through a window and see right through the house. Close some doors halfway, pull a few shades down, etc. Don't close it up so much that it's like no one is home, but don't leave all the window shades up and doors open either.

4. Have outdoor lights on motion sensors, and a few key indoor lights on timers. The house should never be all dark.

5. If you have elderly neighbors or neighbors who are home a lot, invite them to park their cars in your otherwise-empty driveway.

6. Get a safe and put any valuables in there anytime you leave.

DollarBill

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2014, 07:35:57 PM »

livetogive

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2014, 12:37:18 AM »
Dog and firearms.  I am not really worried about a break-in when I'm not at home, its just stuff..  If I'm at home, that's what my friends Smith and Wesson are for.

+1

I HATE thieves and criminals but also pity one who threatens my family by breaking in.  Dogs are great but so are firearms held by people who practice with them often.

grantmeaname

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2014, 02:39:43 AM »
Even though the statistics say that the gun is much more likely to harm accidentally than protect anyone? Those are just statistics, and your house is different somehow?

libertarian4321

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2014, 05:42:26 AM »


I do have a concealed carry license but don't carry often since I can't take it on the base but once I retire I most likely carry every day. I do have places that I conceal weapons in different rooms with magnets. So I'm always about an arms reach from taking the life of a robber :). I also have other alternatives such as I carry a self defensive pen (made by Uzi, has a glass breaker on one side) and peeper spray in my car. Lastly I keep a real like pistol BB gun (Like just like a M&P .40) on the night stand. I bought it for target practice in the garage. I leave it on the night stand in case if I do get robbed they will find that and stop looking for my real stache. I know I'm a bit nutty but a well prepared nut :).

This last Christmas I bought my Mom and Sister a "monkey fist" to put on their key chains. These things look colorful and harmless but believe me these little things can do some major damage with one swing. It has a 1inch steel ball in the end of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DsCxarlpN0
       

I'm glad I don't have to live like this--with a house full of weapons.

You don't "have to" do anything.  You can just take your chances if you want, it's a free country.

Yes, I could sit back, do nothing, and hope that I get lucky and nothing happens.  That "I don't care, I'm not going to prepare" attitude is pretty prevalent in the USA, whether you are talking about financial issues or home preparedness.

I don't live in an especially high crime area, but crime happens everywhere.  I choose NOT to bury my head in the sand and hope nothing happens.  I'd rather be prepared, on the chance that something does go wrong.

So my wife and I are both good with weapons.  Actually, I'm really good.  I'm ex-military and have been shooting since I was 13.  My wife is no Rambo, but she's more than competent with a pistol or a shotgun.

We've been living in our current home for 18 years.  No break ins.  But that doesn't mean we get fat, lazy, and stupid and hope nothing will ever happen.  We regularly go to the range and practice. 

Note:  Going to the range on a Saturday afternoon is not only helpful, it can be Hell of a lot of relatively inexpensive fun.  You can't imagine the number of liberal "anti-gunners" I've taken to the range and "converted" after about 3 rounds down range.  Just last weekend, my wife and I took one of her liberal, Hispanic "Hillary Lovin" female grad school friends to the range for the first time (she's a new homeowner and wanted to "be prepared").  I swear, the girl just about had a freakin' orgasm.  I had to advise her to settle down and practically had to wrestle the damned 9mm out of her hands after she'd gone through the first clip.   BTW, she was damned good for a beginner- she put together a very close shot group right on target- far better than you'd expect from a first timer.

And you don't need "a house full of weapons."  A good, short barreled shotgun is your best option for home defense (a Mossberg Maverick with the pistol grip is a good choice).  A pistol or two as back up- e.g. if you are the primary person with the shotgun, choose a weapon for your wife that she can handle- don't get a damned cannon, just a simple .38 revolver or a 9 mm semi-auto that she feels comfortable with.

Okay, end of gun rant.




grantmeaname

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2014, 05:51:20 AM »
You don't "have to" do anything.  You can just take your chances if you want, it's a free country.

Yes, I could sit back, do nothing, and hope that I get lucky and nothing happens.  That "I don't care, I'm not going to prepare" attitude is pretty prevalent in the USA, whether you are talking about financial issues or home preparedness.
I think describing this attitude as head-burying totally misses the point. There are risks that come with not having a gun in the home - such as that someone will take some of your stuff in a way that you could have prevented - and there are risks that come with having a gun in the home - homicide during domestic confrontations, suicide, misfiring, the burglar/whoever getting control of the weapon. Some people, such as those who understand statistical reasoning and can think critically about risk, look at those costs and decide they're not worth it. Others have such big balls that they just don't care what the facts say, or know that they're just different somehow than the population as a whole.

libertarian4321

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2014, 06:05:03 AM »
Even though the statistics say that the gun is much more likely to harm accidentally than protect anyone? Those are just statistics, and your house is different somehow?

You posted a link that requires a login (in other words, useless), so I didn't read it.

You will find "statistics" massaged to fit both sides of the argument.

If you look at those who "harm" family members, they are almost invariably typically nut jobs (who would harm their family with a gun, knife, or their bare hands) or IDIOTS who don't follow the basic rules of gun safety.

Like the overwhelming majority of gun owners, I am neither a nut job nor an idiot.  No one in my family is in any danger of being hurt by our (multiple) firearms, because like most gun owners, we are perfectly sane, well trained, safety conscious gun owners.   I worry far more about my wife being hurt by her BMW than her 9 mm pistol.  Because, frankly, she's far better about gun safety than she is on the road.  The woman has a lead foot.

We have people visit all the time- within a few feet of our "stockpile" of guns.  We are pillars of our community.  While everyone knows we are well armed, no one "worries" about our guns.

On the other hand, if you are a criminal planning to break into our home late at night, you are going to find that we can be a whole lot less hospitable.  I've got a whole other attitude towards those folks...

And BTW, I do NOT believe everyone should have guns.  If you want them, and feel comfortable with them, and know how to use them, feel free to be well armed.  But if you aren't comfortable with them, don't keep them around.  My dad is a combat Army vet (Korean War), who grew up around weapons, but as he's gotten older (80+), he just doesn't feel comfortable having weapons in the house (though he had them when we were kids)- that's fine- do whatever you feel is best for you.

libertarian4321

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2014, 06:40:04 AM »
You don't "have to" do anything.  You can just take your chances if you want, it's a free country.

Yes, I could sit back, do nothing, and hope that I get lucky and nothing happens.  That "I don't care, I'm not going to prepare" attitude is pretty prevalent in the USA, whether you are talking about financial issues or home preparedness.
I think describing this attitude as head-burying totally misses the point. There are risks that come with not having a gun in the home - such as that someone will take some of your stuff in a way that you could have prevented - and there are risks that come with having a gun in the home - homicide during domestic confrontations, suicide, misfiring, the burglar/whoever getting control of the weapon. Some people, such as those who understand statistical reasoning and can think critically about risk, look at those costs and decide they're not worth it. Others have such big balls that they just don't care what the facts say, or know that they're just different somehow than the population as a whole.

"Some people, such as those who understand statistical reasoning and can think critically about risk, look at those costs and decide they're not worth it. Others have such big balls that they just don't care what the facts say, or know that they're just different somehow than the population as a whole."

I've got a BS in Chemical Engineering from RPI, an MEng from MIT in Env. Engineering, and an MBA from Boston University.  You might be surprised, but all three of those degrees required courses in statistics (though, to be fair, I tested out of the MBA statistics requirement). I've spent 29 years as a professional engineer and manager (yeah, I've done a fair bit of stats, there, too- on almost a daily basis- though far more as a manager than as an engineer).  Bottom line: I've had a bit of experience with statistics.  Seriously, I'm pretty sure I understand stats (I won't mention the fact that I took college level stats classes while still in HS through a program for gifted students through Syracuse University, because that would just make me look like a dickhead, right?).

I'm taking a bit of a risk here (though a rather small one) when I say that it's likely that my ability to "understand statistical reasoning and think critically about risk" is at least equivalent to yours.  If not, please feel free to exploit your superior knowledge and beat me up over my shocking inability to understand statistics (yeah, I know, it ain't going to happen).

Aside from being an MBA/Engineer, I was also a boy scout/soldier, and grew up in a family of hunters.  My grandfather hunted until the day he died, and collected guns - he probably had enough to invade a small nation.  I'm talking shit tons of guns.  A whole room full of them, probably at least 50 rifles, pistols, shotguns, and automatic weapons- everything from BB guns to elephant guns- pistols, rifles, even a Tommy gun (that required a special license). My dad was also an Army vet, though less enthusiastic about guns, though he always had a rifle in the house as we grew up.  I've lived 51 years in homes with guns.   Shockingly, no one was ever shot.  How could this be, Mr. Statistics Know it all?

So here are some statistics that make sense, even to those who aren't as arrogant as you are about "statistics." If you visit my house as a guest, you have a 0% chance of being shot.  Not even if we disagree.  God knows, as a Libertarian, I've had plenty of heated debates on the patio with both Republicans and Democrats.  You'll be well fed (perhaps excessively fed, my wife has a tendency to go a bit too far on "laying out the spread"), and well entertained, even if we don't agree politically.  We are great hosts.

If you break into my house late at night as a criminal, you have a 100% chance of leaving in a body bag.  I'm a nice guy, wouldn't hurt anyone, but I've got a 'whole different attitude when it comes to criminals endangering my family.  I go back into Army mode.

End of story.

BPA

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2014, 07:47:27 AM »
If I ever needed another reason to disdain libertarianism, I've found it.

Wow.  I'm glad I don't live in your world with your mindset.


Daleth

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2014, 08:38:04 AM »
I think describing this attitude as head-burying totally misses the point. There are risks that come with not having a gun in the home - such as that someone will take some of your stuff in a way that you could have prevented - and there are risks that come with having a gun in the home - homicide during domestic confrontations, suicide, misfiring, the burglar/whoever getting control of the weapon. Some people, such as those who understand statistical reasoning and can think critically about risk, look at those costs and decide they're not worth it. Others have such big balls that they just don't care what the facts say, or know that they're just different somehow than the population as a whole.

May I ask why the only risk you perceive from not having a gun is someone taking your stuff, while death and mayhem are the risks of having a gun? Open the newspaper once in a while and you may observe that in addition to burglary, criminals who break into homes also commit rape, murder and kidnapping.

A few examples of people using guns to prevent rape, aggravated assault and/or murder:

"As reported, a rape victim shot and killed an attacker in Cape Girardeau, MO when he broke into her home to rape her for a second time this week. The 57-year-old woman shot 47-year-old Ronnie W. Preyer, a registered sex offender, in the chest with a shotgun after he cut the power to her apartment and then broke through her locked basement door. Preyer had previously broken into the woman’s home, punched her in the face, and then raped her in her bedroom.  The county prosecutor has stated that the woman acted properly in defending herself, and will not face charges."
https://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/11/03/woman-shoots-rapist-who-came-back-to-rape-her-for-a-second-time/

A group of college students said they are lucky to be alive and they’re thanking the quick-thinking of one of their own. Police said a fellow student shot and killed one of two masked me who burst into an apartment.
Channel 2 Action News reporter Tom Jones met with one of the students to talk about the incident.
Apparently, his intent was to rape and murder us all,” said student Charles Bailey.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/college-student-shoots-kills-home-invader/nD9XG/

Kenny Guffey said he was driving home from work around 6:30 p.m. on Wednesday when he called is 83-year-old mother, Christine Guffey.
"We were talking probably ten minutes and then all of the sudden her voice panicked and she said, 'What are you doing in my house, oh no, he's got a knife. What are you doing with the knife?'" said Guffey.
Luckily, Guffey was only two minutes away from her Balsam Road home. When he got there, he went inside with his gun drawn.
"I went through the door and he was standing over her with the shovel, I didn't see the knife, it was dark in there," said Guffey.
http://www.local8now.com/news/headlines/Man-saves-mothers-life-by-holding-intruder-at-gunpoint-248896781.html

Police say that at about 5:30am, a man broke into a home on Minnesota Avenue in Cape Girardeau, Missouri, armed with a knife. The man reportedly entered the daughter’s room and climbed on top of her, preparing to rape her. When the attacker put down his knife, the daughter reportedly grabbed it then screamed for help, prompting her mother to grab a handgun and rush to her daughter’s aid. The mother is said to have order the rapist out of the house at gunpoint. Police apprehend a suspect, reportedly identified as 51 year old Craig Kizer, who the mother and daughter reportedly identified as the intruder, according to news reports. Kizer is said to have be a worker who helped renovate the home, according to the mother.
https://www.learnaboutguns.com/2010/06/05/armed-mother-saves-her-daughter-from-a-home-invading-rapist/

iris lily

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2014, 10:19:22 AM »
If I ever needed another reason to disdain libertarianism, I've found it.

Wow.  I'm glad I don't live in your world with your mindset.

That's funny, because I was thinking that I'd really like him to be my neighbor.

zataks

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2014, 11:08:58 AM »
While I feel they many people I hear talking about owning/using firearms for home safety are fritattas and more likely to hurt themselves through lack of experience or training, libertarian4321 represents the kind of person who should use firearms.  He's trained, knowledgeable, and maintains his skills.
It seems like to many think simply owning a gun and brandishing it or the fact they possess it is adequate. These are the folks that hurt themselves.

DollarBill

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2014, 01:16:55 PM »
While I feel they many people I hear talking about owning/using firearms for home safety are fritattas and more likely to hurt themselves through lack of experience or training, libertarian4321 represents the kind of person who should use firearms.  He's trained, knowledgeable, and maintains his skills.
It seems like to many think simply owning a gun and brandishing it or the fact they possess it is adequate. These are the folks that hurt themselves.

Agree...there is great responsibility that comes with gun ownership. Some of the best training I get is shooting at a video range at Gander mountain. They have a 360 room where they can take you through real life scenarios. They can do this through the eyes of Military, Police or concealed carry. They can control the scenarios so it can play out differently every time and add/remove the realness factor. Even the shooting feels real because they use real glocks or Springfield's with a CO2 blow back. Plus, it's cheaper and safer then real shooting. It's also a great way to get non shooters into the sport.

BlueMR2

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2014, 01:55:09 PM »
It seems like to many think simply owning a gun and brandishing it or the fact they possess it is adequate. These are the folks that hurt themselves.

This, plus those are the people that get their own gun used against them.  If you're not prepared to use it, you have no business carrying it.

Training and the appropriate mindset are critical to firearms.  With those in place, you improve your safety.  Without those, you're just making things worse for everyone.

Hedge_87

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2014, 02:01:21 PM »
I live in the mid-west so you never know what the meth heads around here are going to try and do. I'm not sure I want to try and wrestle with one of them when they are all strung out. I'm saying I'm not taking a chance in finding out if they are just going to take my stuff and leave or look at my wife and decide to stay for a while. I don't have any military background but I have grown up with and around fire arms and go at least bi-weekly (would love to go more) with my buddies on the PD to the range.

livetogive

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2014, 02:06:57 PM »
Even though the statistics say that the gun is much more likely to harm accidentally than protect anyone? Those are just statistics, and your house is different somehow?

This is my attempt to keep this post from turning into a flame war.  Bottom line, if the OP feels firearms are unsafe then don't take my advice.

I work in data and know stats, especially those around emotionally charged issues, aren't perfect.  Both sides of the debate choose to follow some figures and ignore others, for example the efficacy of gun legislation in crime prevention (turns out poverty is a much higher predictor of violence btw).  I personally know many who have used firearms for protection and I choose to own them. 

As for the "my house is different somehow" tone, attitudes like that aren't helpful for anyone.  If you don't like firearms or feel they are unsafe then don't own them.  Too easy.

Edit:  although I couldn't log into your source either I always laugh when medicinal research is taken as gospel.  For some reason in that industry you're never allowed to question the current point of view or acknowledge previous mistakes (Tylenol and liver failure? Fen-Phen is safe? Smoking "smooth" cigarettes is ok?)


« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 02:14:00 PM by TurboLT »

Jack

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2014, 02:21:46 PM »
My grandfather hunted until the day he died...

Technically, that statement applies to everyone who was accidentally shot while hunting too. ; )

(I'm not anti-gun, I just thought that was a funny choice of words.)

Cpa Cat

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2014, 03:19:44 PM »
... and there are risks that come with having a gun in the home - homicide during domestic confrontations, suicide, misfiring, the burglar/whoever getting control of the weapon. Some people, such as those who understand statistical reasoning and can think critically about risk, look at those costs and decide they're not worth it. Others have such big balls that they just don't care what the facts say, or know that they're just different somehow than the population as a whole.

In all fairness, each and every one of the risks that you listed can be mitigated by the gun owner. Some can be eliminated completely.

When it comes to thinking critically about risk, you are correct that people who are suicidal or prone to abusing/attacking their family members shouldn't own guns. That said, you can't really correlate guns to this behavior. Guns don't make people kill themselves or someone else - they just happen to be a particularly effective tool for people seeking to inflict deadly harm. Your chances for failing to kill yourself or others increase if you don't own a gun.

But owning a gun doesn't increase the inherent risk that you will be suicidal or homicidal. Just like owning a belt doesn't make you hang yourself and owning pesticides doesn't make you swallow them (FYI - far more popular choices for suicide, worldwide); having hands doesn't make you strangle your wife and owning a knife doesn't make you stab her (also more popular choices than guns).

If you are afraid of guns, then you shouldn't own one, because your fear and discomfort likely increases your risk of misfiring or having the gun used against you in a crisis. But you shouldn't project that risk onto others who do not share your lack of training/discomfort/fear - because their risk is quite a bit lower than yours. People who want to mitigate those risks of gun ownership are able to do that - by training, practicing, choosing the correct firearm, etc.

People are different from the population as a whole. The population as a whole is an average. Some people are above average and some people are below average. There is a vast list of socio-economic, cultural, physical and mental factors that make each individual different from the population as a whole. The population as a whole is made up of everyone from gang members (high gun risks) to elderly people in nursing homes (low gun risks) - it would be disingenuous to suggest that "facts" and "statistics" show that they share the same risks because they are both members of the population as a whole.

DollarBill

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2014, 05:44:09 PM »
Let's all agree weapons are a choice and I'm glad we still have a choice. So lets separate sides and stick to other ideas on how to keep you home safe.

-You can leave out dog toys in the yard
-Keep wasp spray next to your bed (Shoot like 25 ft)
-If you buy something new cut up the boxes
-Prevent Identity Theft By Changing Identity Every Three Years

Hedge_87

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2014, 05:55:12 PM »
Quote
Prevent Identity Theft By Changing Identity Every Three Years
Quote

This sounds existing and confusing lol so sir whats your name again???? crap I don't know man it used to be bill but I think i'm George now

swiper

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2014, 06:08:39 PM »
Let's all agree weapons are a choice and I'm glad we still have a choice. So lets separate sides and stick to other ideas on how to keep you home safe.

-You can leave out dog toys in the yard
-Keep wasp spray next to your bed (Shoot like 25 ft)
-If you buy something new cut up the boxes
-Prevent Identity Theft By Changing Identity Every Three Years

You forgot one important option: Pick up your shit and move somewhere safer!

Also, how/why would you change your identity every three years? Wouldn't all the extra logistics/paper trail actually increase the potential of identity theft?


DollarBill

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2014, 07:29:44 PM »
Let's all agree weapons are a choice and I'm glad we still have a choice. So lets separate sides and stick to other ideas on how to keep you home safe.

-You can leave out dog toys in the yard
-Keep wasp spray next to your bed (Shoot like 25 ft)
-If you buy something new cut up the boxes
-Prevent Identity Theft By Changing Identity Every Three Years

You forgot one important option: Pick up your shit and move somewhere safer!

Also, how/why would you change your identity every three years? Wouldn't all the extra logistics/paper trail actually increase the potential of identity theft?

That was kind of a joke from the "onion website".

grantmeaname

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2014, 02:18:01 AM »
You posted a link that requires a login (in other words, useless), so I didn't read it.
Sorry, it worked yesterday but isn't working today. It's an abstract only so it's odd that it wants a database when accessed directly from the URL and shows it when accessed from a search engine.

Quote
You will find "statistics" massaged to fit both sides of the argument.
Certainly, and I'm not one who thinks anything published as a statistic is unquestionable truth.

Quote
If you look at those who "harm" family members, they are almost invariably typically nut jobs (who would harm their family with a gun, knife, or their bare hands) or IDIOTS who don't follow the basic rules of gun safety.

Like the overwhelming majority of gun owners, I am neither a nut job nor an idiot.  No one in my family is in any danger of being hurt by our (multiple) firearms, because like most gun owners, we are perfectly sane, well trained, safety conscious gun owners.   I worry far more about my wife being hurt by her BMW than her 9 mm pistol.  Because, frankly, she's far better about gun safety than she is on the road.  The woman has a lead foot.
You may think that, and I agree with the notion that you can dramatically control your risks by being a responsible gun owner, but that doesn't change the fact that the risks are significant for anyone, and that many of the people who choose not to own guns do so in cognizance of the risks.

Quote
And BTW, I do NOT believe everyone should have guns.  If you want them, and feel comfortable with them, and know how to use them, feel free to be well armed.  But if you aren't comfortable with them, don't keep them around.  My dad is a combat Army vet (Korean War), who grew up around weapons, but as he's gotten older (80+), he just doesn't feel comfortable having weapons in the house (though he had them when we were kids)- that's fine- do whatever you feel is best for you.
You just characterized everyone who doesn't own a gun as irresponsible and unprepared one post earlier. Don't pretend this is your opinion if it's clearly not!

If you are afraid of guns, then you shouldn't own one, because your fear and discomfort likely increases your risk of misfiring or having the gun used against you in a crisis. But you shouldn't project that risk onto others who do not share your lack of training/discomfort/fear - because their risk is quite a bit lower than yours. People who want to mitigate those risks of gun ownership are able to do that - by training, practicing, choosing the correct firearm, etc.
And again, this is not about whether I am too dainty to own a gun, but I appreciate your concern for my psychological level of comfort around firearms. I'm saying that the reason that some people choose not to own guns is because they have weighed the risks of doing so against the risks of not doing so, perhaps using the statistical evidence available, and decided that it's not worth it.

Edited to add:
I think everyone in this conversation agrees that there are risks to gun ownership and risks to non-gun-ownership too, and the differences between the sides largely derive from the degree to which each believes these risks can be mitigated. I just found it frustrating that we've got a big community of rational, intelligent, insightful people and any time there's a political thread, people throw all of that away and instead of considering others' points of view we turn into caricaturists and suddenly everyone who disagrees with us is unprepared, ill-informed, a pansy, or a moron. I don't even really have much of a horse in this race, but I entered the thread in the first place because it was apparent to me that one whole side of the conversation wasn't being given the respect that everyone normally receives in every thread on this site. My post didn't do a ton to help that, so maybe I should work harder to just stick to the non-political threads and stay out of it.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 04:46:38 AM by grantmeaname »

Cpa Cat

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2014, 11:24:42 AM »
I don't even really have much of a horse in this race, but I entered the thread in the first place because it was apparent to me that one whole side of the conversation wasn't being given the respect that everyone normally receives in every thread on this site. My post didn't do a ton to help that, so maybe I should work harder to just stick to the non-political threads and stay out of it.

I agree, and I apologize for wading in. I don't even really care about firearm ownership - like you, I have no horse in the race. I'm not sure why I chose to throw my hat in there. It was unhelpful to the original poster and added nothing to anyone's life (including my own).

frugaliknowit

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2014, 12:04:22 PM »
I would strategically place bright lights with motion sensors around the outside of your house.  Inside I would program lights to go on/off at various times.  Always have someone (such as a neighbor) park in your driveway.  The dogs are great.

Gun?  Statistically, if a gun you own ever goes off (other than at a range), it will most likely hit the wrong person (like you or someone in your family).  This is not TV fiction.

Document all of your home inventory with pictures and make sure you keep up with the homeowners insurance.  Good luck!!

Scandium

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2014, 01:14:58 PM »
I appreciate grantmeaname's contribution, as it's close to my own opinions. I have used firearms and have some training and I have weighted their benefits against the risk, and the fact that my wife dislike them and found that for me I prefer to live without them (Or "bury my head in the sand and wait to be raped" if you will..). If I hear something in the house I don't think me stumbling around in the dark with a pistol will do much good. But if other people want to knock yourself out (just keep them locked up please so the thieves dont rob me with your gun..)

Latwell

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Re: House Robbers
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2014, 02:49:27 PM »
Unless police response in your area is fantastic, alarm systems aren't worth it.










A family down the street has an alarm, but they don't pay for the service. It just makes an awfully loud beeping noise (only know this because I was watching their home for them and I couldn't get the thing to turn off b/c they gave me the wrong number for the keypad and stood there for a half hour before they answered their phones, haha). I'm pretty sure the illusion of it being connected to a service provider is scary enough for most people to stop what they are doing and run away.