Author Topic: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?  (Read 20342 times)

Cassie

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There is plenty of land for people to build out. We have parking issues because we are a 1950’s neighborhood with 1 car garages.   The whole feel of the area would change.  Plus we are fairly close to the university and nobody wants to deal with college students as neighbors.

ysette9

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I feel a lot of these issues are the result of our crappy zoning laws in the US that are unnecessarily limiting and prescriptive. Allowing cities to grow and adapt to larger populations doesn’t need to be rocket science and doesn’t necessarily need to put neighbors against us. Many cities around the world have figured out how to provide quality living conditions and accommodate denser populations.

Linea_Norway

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It is shocking to me that your neighbours can just do this without informing the adjacent neighbours. In Norway you need to get your neighbour's signatures on your detailed plans for rebuilding your existing home or building a new home, before you can start building. The neighbours can give their opinion and protest. You need to inform about the period of building and about any inconveniences.

dougules

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It is shocking to me that your neighbours can just do this without informing the adjacent neighbours. In Norway you need to get your neighbour's signatures on your detailed plans for rebuilding your existing home or building a new home, before you can start building. The neighbours can give their opinion and protest. You need to inform about the period of building and about any inconveniences.
I was surprised by that too but after looking it up, apparently they don't have to give you any notice unless they are changing zoning laws - building a commercial or business or apt complex. So they can legally build as big of a house as they want as long as it is 5 feet from all property lines and no more than 2 stories tall - or a big house plus a smaller one on the same lot and the neighbors wouldn't know until the bulldozer shows up one morning. Reminds me of Arthur Dent from Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy. Hope my neighbor knows where her towel is and then everything will be OK ;-).

ETA: one thing that is interesting is that in that hood and area there are a lot of Buddhist Monasteries in the expanded  SFHs. I would think that would be considered commercial or business but apparently it's not so the adjacent neighbors don't need to be informed before the Monastery  house is built or expanded. Then it goes on the "Monastary" tour and the giant tour buses show up every week parked in the middle of the neighborhood street.

That's random, but I guess it isn't any more random than all the strange places they put churches around here.  Since monasteries are religious institutions, it's probably a lot harder to regulate their activities given the first amendment.  I remember when I lived in Oregon a church decided to raze several buildings downtown for a parking lot.  Since it was a church there was nothing the city could do to stop them.   

Why do monasteries have tour buses come through?

Goldielocks

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@dougules  -- I think the core of the "problem" with not being able to do anything about new builds, is not limited to churches.

Cities have zoning bylaws, and each property is in a zone.  If the new build / new use fully conforms to the zoning for that property, then the city can do very little other than enforce safety, zoning rules, parking rules, ensure trash is picked up, construction does not just stop halfway, buildings are not left to rot, etc.

The city needs to change the zoning rules (that apply to hundreds of properties, and require public consultations) and/or add more zoning rules to get more restrictive.

As for notifying the neighbors, they will not be notified unless either a)  The whole area has a building permit rule that neighbors must be notified about any new construction  (rare, special identified areas only), or b)  The new build will not fully conform to the zoning rule.

As for churches being special -- that is only the case if they have made a specific "church" zone.  Here, I think churches are zoned just like recreational building spaces (assembly spaces, like a theatre), and need to comply with those zoning setbacks and parking rules.  In fact, the only unique thing about churches is that the spot that the building is on (but often not the parking lot) is property tax reduced / free, by long standing convention.  For that reason, it is very very difficult to get a new property zoned to be "church".  You have to buy an existing one, tear it down or renovate.

The buddist / asia religious centres are growing here, too.  And people often start them in homes, because they have a leader there and can create space by opening up a few rooms.  It starts with just 10 people and grows. Queue parking problems in the residential area.  Several have been told to go rent space in the nearby rec centres, or buy land and build using assembly zoning, but would not get the church tax status.  One that grew like this here was on farm land, building adhoc structures was told to tear it all down, get rezoned, get permits and rebuild with inspections.

Lastly, I have a suspicion that the church property you named, that tore down buildings to put in a parking lot may have had a few underlying causes -- older, under used buildings that needed expensive repairs maybe with those tiny meeting/class rooms that was the style in the 70's but now churches want larger group meetings for 30 people at a time, or they were residences for religious students that they no longer have......or most likely the city told them to -- they are not compliant with city parking regulations for their zone, and have the abilty to charge for parking during the week (if they are close to downtown) and get some income.

Cassie

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I would definitely not want to deal with monastery tours and bus loads of people. Thankfully that has not happened here.  Millennials and retirees are buying the small houses in our neighborhood and remodeling them but not tearing the houses down. Most aren’t even adding on in the back.

Goldielocks

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I would definitely not want to deal with monastery tours and bus loads of people. Thankfully that has not happened here.  Millennials and retirees are buying the small houses in our neighborhood and remodeling them but not tearing the houses down. Most aren’t even adding on in the back.
Just wait until there are enough younger / newer families that you start to have the "Monster halloween haunted house" or "Christmas light display"... with volunteers and collection of donations for a charity.

These things are terrific. to have close by.. until they start attracting more than 300 people a night.

Cassie

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I will probably be dead before that happens. On the west coast but not California.

Linea_Norway

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It is shocking to me that your neighbours can just do this without informing the adjacent neighbours. In Norway you need to get your neighbour's signatures on your detailed plans for rebuilding your existing home or building a new home, before you can start building. The neighbours can give their opinion and protest. You need to inform about the period of building and about any inconveniences.
I was surprised by that too but after looking it up, apparently they don't have to give you any notice unless they are changing zoning laws - building a commercial or business or apt complex. So they can legally build as big of a house as they want as long as it is 5 feet from all property lines and no more than 2 stories tall - or a big house plus a smaller one on the same lot and the neighbors wouldn't know until the bulldozer shows up one morning. Reminds me of Arthur Dent from Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy. Hope my neighbor knows where her towel is and then everything will be OK ;-).


Maybe it works that that here as well. I just remember that many neighbours have gotten our signature for rebuilding their existing house. It could be that plans for new houses only are displayed at the community office for those who remember to go there by themselves. Like Arthur Dent didn't.

dougules

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@dougules  -- I think the core of the "problem" with not being able to do anything about new builds, is not limited to churches.

Cities have zoning bylaws, and each property is in a zone.  If the new build / new use fully conforms to the zoning for that property, then the city can do very little other than enforce safety, zoning rules, parking rules, ensure trash is picked up, construction does not just stop halfway, buildings are not left to rot, etc.

The city needs to change the zoning rules (that apply to hundreds of properties, and require public consultations) and/or add more zoning rules to get more restrictive.

As for notifying the neighbors, they will not be notified unless either a)  The whole area has a building permit rule that neighbors must be notified about any new construction  (rare, special identified areas only), or b)  The new build will not fully conform to the zoning rule.

As I was discussing earlier all the zoning, bylaws, and resistance to change is having a lot of bad consequences, too, like the price of housing.  I don't want to go political again, but I'll just say that it really isn't simple.  It's not straightforward to strike a balance of how and how much neighborhoods should or should not change with changing needs.  All the zoning and city layout you are familiar with were experimental regulatory models within the lifetime of people still alive today.  They have their upsides and their downsides. 

Quote
As for churches being special -- that is only the case if they have made a specific "church" zone.  Here, I think churches are zoned just like recreational building spaces (assembly spaces, like a theatre), and need to comply with those zoning setbacks and parking rules.  In fact, the only unique thing about churches is that the spot that the building is on (but often not the parking lot) is property tax reduced / free, by long standing convention.  For that reason, it is very very difficult to get a new property zoned to be "church".  You have to buy an existing one, tear it down or renovate.

The buddist / asia religious centres are growing here, too.  And people often start them in homes, because they have a leader there and can create space by opening up a few rooms.  It starts with just 10 people and grows. Queue parking problems in the residential area.  Several have been told to go rent space in the nearby rec centres, or buy land and build using assembly zoning, but would not get the church tax status.  One that grew like this here was on farm land, building adhoc structures was told to tear it all down, get rezoned, get permits and rebuild with inspections.

Lastly, I have a suspicion that the church property you named, that tore down buildings to put in a parking lot may have had a few underlying causes -- older, under used buildings that needed expensive repairs maybe with those tiny meeting/class rooms that was the style in the 70's but now churches want larger group meetings for 30 people at a time, or they were residences for religious students that they no longer have......or most likely the city told them to -- they are not compliant with city parking regulations for their zone, and have the abilty to charge for parking during the week (if they are close to downtown) and get some income.

The older buildings were still usable, and even if they did need extensive repairs, the economics of land in downtown Portland would have easily supported it.  The city did not want them to add parking as that they're trying to reduce the number of cars downtown. 

Interestingly enough an old house about a mile north of me has been converted into a Vietnamese Buddhist temple.  I had seen the big Buddha out front, and just now looked it up.  I guess it's not just California. 

It looks like you are in Canada, so there would be different laws on how zoning can work with religious buildings.  The US constitution makes it a lot harder to regulate things when it's a religious institution involved. 

Goldielocks

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It looks like you are in Canada, so there would be different laws on how zoning can work with religious buildings.  The US constitution makes it a lot harder to regulate things when it's a religious institution involved.
Not really..at the country level. It is all based on local ordinances.  Some states and cities are more "free for all", some are less so when it comes to church properties.  I worked both sides of the border.   I have never seen a jurisdiction that did not enforce building safety regulations when it comes to churches, for example.... unless grandfathered in due to age.   They may be lenient on timeline, but no one is willing to take on the liability of approving an unsafe structure.   Likewise, I have not seen any that ignored local parking regulations and bylaws... they would accept reasonable alternatives, but not ignore it.

robartsd

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ADU’s were going to be allowed in our neighborhood if your lot was 10,000. However, the neighborhood mobilized and the ordinance was not changed to allow it.

And hence the root of the housing crisis.
So I take it that if you were a long term homeowner in a tract of small houses you'd be OK with them building large high rise apt complexes on 3 sides of your house? Or even a 2 or 3 story mcmansions across the full lot? A lot of us support building small ADUs but its the building extremely large houses or multi-unit apts/housing/AirBNBs and ADUs on one small lot that is the problem for many homeowners.

In any case I didn't want this thread to get political as I was only looking to see how others would feel about something like a giant house with lots of people going up next door to them and if it would cause them to move and, if so, whether it was best to wait until finished or sell asap.
Most 10k+ sf lots are plenty big for a smal ADU. While state law allows ADU, local jurisdiction could set reasonable limits to minimize impact on neighbors (setbacks, off-street parking requirements, limitation on short-term rentals, maximum occupancy limits).

Cassie

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That definitely changes things but if the owners are living on site they aren’t going to want to live in a noisy party house either.

robartsd

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Since it appears to mostly be international students from Asia there may be different rules. Here one example of a room rented to students in another town:
I highly doubt that the rules are different, but the international students expectations for privacy and space likely is different than US born students. If they are indeed quiet and respectful (and also mostly car-free) then the impact on the neighborhood might not be too bad; but I'd still rather not have the big house right next to my property line. The good news about a housing impacted college town is that residential property values are unlikely to decline.

dougules

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A big question to me would be if she does move, where would she go, and what would it cost?

Goldielocks

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International students with the owners on site is a LOT quieter/ better than many other higher density rental situations.

dougules

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At this point her best bet is probably to wait it out and see what happens.  If the project ends up being successful but annoying to live next to, she'll most likely be able to sell to a developer wanting to replicate the successful model.

Or she sells to a developer now.  I can't see any mainstream family wanting to buy her place while the construction is going on and before the results are known.  At least not at a reasonable price.

+1  There's a good chance it won't be as bad as she thinks it is once the construction dust settles. 

That is unless she could get really good money relative to where she wants to move. 

It seems mildly ironic that she wants to move to a condo. 

mm1970

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At this point her best bet is probably to wait it out and see what happens.  If the project ends up being successful but annoying to live next to, she'll most likely be able to sell to a developer wanting to replicate the successful model.

Or she sells to a developer now.  I can't see any mainstream family wanting to buy her place while the construction is going on and before the results are known.  At least not at a reasonable price.

+1  There's a good chance it won't be as bad as she thinks it is once the construction dust settles. 

That is unless she could get really good money relative to where she wants to move. 

It seems mildly ironic that she wants to move to a condo.

Only mildly though, as condos generally have assigned parking, more rules about who can live there, open spaces.

ChpBstrd

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A friend of mine put his house on the market in a panic when he learned a WalMart super center was to be built down the road. I checked the neighborhood prices a few years after the sale and after the WalMart and the prices had increased in line with all the other neighborhoods in the area. They lost probably tens of thousands of dollars in house-trading expenses for nothing.

ChpBstrd

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That type of thing is happening to my neighborhood in Seattle too.  My neighborhood is mostly post WWII, small houses.   Four houses on my street (in one block) have been scraped and rebuilt as luxury homes.   That says to me the value of my house is almost entirely in the land.  And that's probably true for your friend as well.  Since the value is in the land, it probably doesn't matter too much when she sells.  But as a SWAG, it might be better to wait until after they build and sell the McMansions, because that's proof of concept that the tear down model is viable in your neighborhood.   

...which leaves me a little torn.   If my house's value is mostly in the land, I could scrap it myself, rebuild with a McMansion, and then sell it.   Because I bought before the huge run-up in real estate, my cost basis would be much lower than the new McMansion down the street.  Like $550K lower.   If those guys are making money, I could make even more.   But I've put considerable sweat equity into my house and yard and I've become attached.  I realize it is foolish to become attached to inanimate objects, yet here I am.

As someone living in a part of the country where home price appreciation has been 1-2% for the past several decades and where home prices per square foot rarely exceed the cost of building per square foot, I would love to switch places with you and be able to become a millionaire simply for the trouble of hiring a developer. Zero plus a rounding error of people in the world have such an opportunity in front of them. I hope you appreciate that, because I'd be all over it. I also wonder how long such exuberance can last.

Goldielocks

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Neighbors sold their home last fall, and I was in fear of a large home (4500 sq.ft) going up because the lot is larger and a second storey would have a view.

It would also loom over my home, and eliminate yard privacy as there is a 8ft ground height difference between us already.

I was very relieved to see the new owners gutting and rebuilding the place, without making large changes to the outside, so far.  Yay!  However, they are doing it themselves / with small contractors who appear to be business contacts, and instead of moving in in Feb, they are not in yet.   And they have a lot of garbage out front (city gave them a notice, it was that bad...). 

The challenge is that they have not mowed their lawn yet this year, obviously don't care while construction goes on.   Grass on their patch was well over knee height and about to self seed all over my flower beds.   I mowed it yesterday for them... I sure hope they aren't environmentalist - nazis....

Jimbo

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.   I mowed it yesterday for them... I sure hope they aren't environmentalist - nazis....

Environmentalist-nazis??

What poor choice of word. Ugh!

Cassie

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Gold, I totally understand them not wanting to move in until the work is done. We did the same thing and it took my husband and a helper 4 months working 12 hours day / 7 days a week. However, they should have removed the junk and cut the grass.

WanderLucky

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That type of thing is happening to my neighborhood in Seattle too.  My neighborhood is mostly post WWII, small houses.   Four houses on my street (in one block) have been scraped and rebuilt as luxury homes.   That says to me the value of my house is almost entirely in the land.  And that's probably true for your friend as well.  Since the value is in the land, it probably doesn't matter too much when she sells.  But as a SWAG, it might be better to wait until after they build and sell the McMansions, because that's proof of concept that the tear down model is viable in your neighborhood.   

...which leaves me a little torn.   If my house's value is mostly in the land, I could scrap it myself, rebuild with a McMansion, and then sell it.   Because I bought before the huge run-up in real estate, my cost basis would be much lower than the new McMansion down the street.  Like $550K lower.   If those guys are making money, I could make even more.   But I've put considerable sweat equity into my house and yard and I've become attached.  I realize it is foolish to become attached to inanimate objects, yet here I am.

As someone living in a part of the country where home price appreciation has been 1-2% for the past several decades and where home prices per square foot rarely exceed the cost of building per square foot, I would love to switch places with you and be able to become a millionaire simply for the trouble of hiring a developer. Zero plus a rounding error of people in the world have such an opportunity in front of them. I hope you appreciate that, because I'd be all over it. I also wonder how long such exuberance can last.

I'm pondering the same thing here in Seattle. My house is over a hundred years old and the maintenance is starting to get too much for me. And despite it being a place I love, it's a 2Bdrm/1Bath, inefficient house, taking up 5000 sqft in an awesome neighborhood. I've been getting weekly offers from developers that have recently climbed to $1.2M. I'm so tempted because as you say, how long can this last? And at the same time, if they are willing to give me $1.2M for the land, then how much are they profiting? Could I do this myself by hiring my own builders? Ultimately, I'd love to have one of the new units because I do love the neighborhood (at least for now; everything is changing so fast), and I know I would have a hard time getting back into this neighborhood - Right now, there are only 13 townhouses (no SF houses) for sale in my neighborhood and only one of them is appealing to me. And the price range is $725k-$1.25M. It's getting a little out of hand, and I do realize that I am one of the lucky ones.

Telecaster

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I'm pondering the same thing here in Seattle. My house is over a hundred years old and the maintenance is starting to get too much for me. And despite it being a place I love, it's a 2Bdrm/1Bath, inefficient house, taking up 5000 sqft in an awesome neighborhood. I've been getting weekly offers from developers that have recently climbed to $1.2M. I'm so tempted because as you say, how long can this last? And at the same time, if they are willing to give me $1.2M for the land, then how much are they profiting? Could I do this myself by hiring my own builders? Ultimately, I'd love to have one of the new units because I do love the neighborhood (at least for now; everything is changing so fast), and I know I would have a hard time getting back into this neighborhood - Right now, there are only 13 townhouses (no SF houses) for sale in my neighborhood and only one of them is appealing to me. And the price range is $725k-$1.25M. It's getting a little out of hand, and I do realize that I am one of the lucky ones.

They are offering you $1.2M for the lot?!?   I think I'd be willing to move out of the neighborhood for that much.

Around me, the last two houses that sold went for $700K and $770K.  The $770K house got redeveloped but hasn't been resold yet.   Nobody ever moved into the $700K house and it just went on the market again after six months, and just sold for an undisclosed amount.   That house had never really been updated, so I'm sure it was supposed to have been a scrape and rebuild.

Here's my situation (and I guess I'm sort of asking for advice here).  I owe $130K on the mortgage (mostly thanks to a too high down payment.  I didn't know better at the time).  My house is conservatively worth $700K.  I believe more, because when I bought it was a 2Br/1Ba, and now it is a legal 3/2.   Plus a metric ton of other sweat equity (upgraded electricity, plumbing, etc). 

Cost estimates I hear for custom homes in Seattle are on the order of $300/SF.   So 3,000 SF house would cost $900K and sell for...shoot, now I'm really guessing...$1.5 million?   Doesn't really pencil out.  $1.8 million probably does, and new construction can go for that much.   

The other issue is the $130K mortgage.  That means my actual cost of living is pretty cheap.    If I sold now, I'd get about $500K in equity, which using the 4% rule translates to $1,600/month.   Basically, if I captured the equity I'd have to leave Seattle, which I don't want to do. 

seattlecyclone

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I'm pondering the same thing here in Seattle. My house is over a hundred years old and the maintenance is starting to get too much for me. And despite it being a place I love, it's a 2Bdrm/1Bath, inefficient house, taking up 5000 sqft in an awesome neighborhood. I've been getting weekly offers from developers that have recently climbed to $1.2M. I'm so tempted because as you say, how long can this last? And at the same time, if they are willing to give me $1.2M for the land, then how much are they profiting? Could I do this myself by hiring my own builders? Ultimately, I'd love to have one of the new units because I do love the neighborhood (at least for now; everything is changing so fast), and I know I would have a hard time getting back into this neighborhood - Right now, there are only 13 townhouses (no SF houses) for sale in my neighborhood and only one of them is appealing to me. And the price range is $725k-$1.25M. It's getting a little out of hand, and I do realize that I am one of the lucky ones.

Interesting situation. I wonder how amenable some of these builders might be to a deal where they give you $250k and one of the townhomes that they would have sold for ~$1 million, rather than $1.2M cash. Seems like it could be a win-win. You'd get a newer, likely bigger house with less need for maintenance in the short term, perhaps with some input on the layout to make sure it's more like the one that appeals to you and less like the 12 that don't. The builder would have a less risky project, with less up-front cost and one unit that is spoken for regardless of what happens to market prices during construction.

Or you could go the route of hiring your own builders, but that doesn't really seem to be for the faint of heart. I'd bet it's pretty common for developers to lose money on their first project(s) as they learn the business.

ChpBstrd

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That type of thing is happening to my neighborhood in Seattle too.  My neighborhood is mostly post WWII, small houses.   Four houses on my street (in one block) have been scraped and rebuilt as luxury homes.   That says to me the value of my house is almost entirely in the land.  And that's probably true for your friend as well.  Since the value is in the land, it probably doesn't matter too much when she sells.  But as a SWAG, it might be better to wait until after they build and sell the McMansions, because that's proof of concept that the tear down model is viable in your neighborhood.   

...which leaves me a little torn.   If my house's value is mostly in the land, I could scrap it myself, rebuild with a McMansion, and then sell it.   Because I bought before the huge run-up in real estate, my cost basis would be much lower than the new McMansion down the street.  Like $550K lower.   If those guys are making money, I could make even more.   But I've put considerable sweat equity into my house and yard and I've become attached.  I realize it is foolish to become attached to inanimate objects, yet here I am.

As someone living in a part of the country where home price appreciation has been 1-2% for the past several decades and where home prices per square foot rarely exceed the cost of building per square foot, I would love to switch places with you and be able to become a millionaire simply for the trouble of hiring a developer. Zero plus a rounding error of people in the world have such an opportunity in front of them. I hope you appreciate that, because I'd be all over it. I also wonder how long such exuberance can last.

I'm pondering the same thing here in Seattle. My house is over a hundred years old and the maintenance is starting to get too much for me. And despite it being a place I love, it's a 2Bdrm/1Bath, inefficient house, taking up 5000 sqft in an awesome neighborhood. I've been getting weekly offers from developers that have recently climbed to $1.2M. I'm so tempted because as you say, how long can this last? And at the same time, if they are willing to give me $1.2M for the land, then how much are they profiting? Could I do this myself by hiring my own builders? Ultimately, I'd love to have one of the new units because I do love the neighborhood (at least for now; everything is changing so fast), and I know I would have a hard time getting back into this neighborhood - Right now, there are only 13 townhouses (no SF houses) for sale in my neighborhood and only one of them is appealing to me. And the price range is $725k-$1.25M. It's getting a little out of hand, and I do realize that I am one of the lucky ones.

$1.2M is my FIRE number in my LCOL area. I've been saving 10 years so far, with 5 more to go, trying to reach the number you could reach just by moving. 15 of the best years  of my life is what that square of dirt is worth. Amazing...

I suppose everyone who wanted to retire from real estate profits has already done so. The only people left are the ones who love that specific location, and who are willing to work hard to stay there.

Telecaster

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Around me, the last two houses that sold went for $700K and $770K.  The $770K house got redeveloped but hasn't been resold yet.   Nobody ever moved into the $700K house and it just went on the market again after six months, and just sold for an undisclosed amount.   That house had never really been updated, so I'm sure it was supposed to have been a scrape and rebuild...

...Cost estimates I hear for custom homes in Seattle are on the order of $300/SF.   So 3,000 SF house would cost $900K and sell for...shoot, now I'm really guessing...$1.5 million?   Doesn't really pencil out.  $1.8 million probably does, and new construction can go for that much.

Welp, the $770K demo and new build just went on the market.   Asking price is $2.1 million.   

dougules

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Around me, the last two houses that sold went for $700K and $770K.  The $770K house got redeveloped but hasn't been resold yet.   Nobody ever moved into the $700K house and it just went on the market again after six months, and just sold for an undisclosed amount.   That house had never really been updated, so I'm sure it was supposed to have been a scrape and rebuild...

...Cost estimates I hear for custom homes in Seattle are on the order of $300/SF.   So 3,000 SF house would cost $900K and sell for...shoot, now I'm really guessing...$1.5 million?   Doesn't really pencil out.  $1.8 million probably does, and new construction can go for that much.

Welp, the $770K demo and new build just went on the market.   Asking price is $2.1 million.

That's insane.  When I lived in Oregon a friend of mine who had been priced out of San Diego told me he thought the whole West Coast would eventually be only for rich people.  I kind of shrugged off the notion that it would also apply to the PNW, but I guess that day has come. 

WanderLucky

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #79 on: June 02, 2019, 07:42:47 PM »
I'm pondering the same thing here in Seattle. My house is over a hundred years old and the maintenance is starting to get too much for me. And despite it being a place I love, it's a 2Bdrm/1Bath, inefficient house, taking up 5000 sqft in an awesome neighborhood. I've been getting weekly offers from developers that have recently climbed to $1.2M. I'm so tempted because as you say, how long can this last? And at the same time, if they are willing to give me $1.2M for the land, then how much are they profiting? Could I do this myself by hiring my own builders? Ultimately, I'd love to have one of the new units because I do love the neighborhood (at least for now; everything is changing so fast), and I know I would have a hard time getting back into this neighborhood - Right now, there are only 13 townhouses (no SF houses) for sale in my neighborhood and only one of them is appealing to me. And the price range is $725k-$1.25M. It's getting a little out of hand, and I do realize that I am one of the lucky ones.

Interesting situation. I wonder how amenable some of these builders might be to a deal where they give you $250k and one of the townhomes that they would have sold for ~$1 million, rather than $1.2M cash. Seems like it could be a win-win. You'd get a newer, likely bigger house with less need for maintenance in the short term, perhaps with some input on the layout to make sure it's more like the one that appeals to you and less like the 12 that don't. The builder would have a less risky project, with less up-front cost and one unit that is spoken for regardless of what happens to market prices during construction.

Or you could go the route of hiring your own builders, but that doesn't really seem to be for the faint of heart. I'd bet it's pretty common for developers to lose money on their first project(s) as they learn the business.

That is a great idea. I have no idea if they would be open to doing that but I just asked (via email) the latest developer to send over an offer to see what they say.

Telecaster

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2019, 04:50:28 PM »
Welp, the $770K demo and new build just went on the market.   Asking price is $2.1 million.

I did a walk through at the open house this weekend.  It is almost 4K square feet, so it is big.  And it is nice, but it isn't that nice.   They did pay some attention making sure there was good natural light in each room (important in the PNW) and there is a legit Mt. Rainier view from the upper deck.  High quality appliances and countertops, and hardwood flooring in most rooms.   The finish work was below what I would have expected for the price.

Be interesting to see if they get the asking price. 

Telecaster

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2019, 07:50:14 PM »
Thank you!  Here's the link:

https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/6802-36th-Ave-NE-98115/home/166865309

Not far from the View Ridge house. 

seattlecyclone

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2019, 10:36:25 AM »
Thank you!  Here's the link:

https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/6802-36th-Ave-NE-98115/home/166865309

Not far from the View Ridge house.

Yeah, that price point is really high for Wedgwood.  I'm guessing it will go for 1.9, tops.

At least it isn't a flat-top box.  I like the vaulted ceilings on the top floor.  But agree that the finishes are underwhelming for such an expensive house.  Also surprised that with so much space they didn't put a kitchenette in the basement to make it immediately feasible as a rental.  I guess you could probably add one pretty easily, but with the potential for both long-term and short-term rentals near the UW putting it in during construction seems like a no-brainer -- I mean, even if you only use that space as a rec room/kids hang out area, a small kitchen with a sink, microwave and fridge would be a plus.

Under current rules if you want to permit an ADU on your property in Seattle you need to file a covenant promising that the owner will always live on site. While I'm sure pretty much anyone buying a brand new $2 million house in Seattle is doing so with the intention to live there, who would really promise that their life will never take them out of town for a couple years? If I were building houses for an undetermined buyer, I wouldn't want to limit the pool of customers in that way. Instead I'd put in all the plumbing and electrical connections needed for the buyer to easily make that upgrade if they want, but not take that final step.

Good news on that front is that legislation to loosen this and other onerous ADU permitting requirements is nearing the finish line after many years of "environmental" appeals from anti-housing groups.

mm1970

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2019, 02:54:30 PM »
Thank you!  Here's the link:

https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/6802-36th-Ave-NE-98115/home/166865309

Not far from the View Ridge house.

Yeah, that price point is really high for Wedgwood.  I'm guessing it will go for 1.9, tops.

At least it isn't a flat-top box.  I like the vaulted ceilings on the top floor.  But agree that the finishes are underwhelming for such an expensive house.  Also surprised that with so much space they didn't put a kitchenette in the basement to make it immediately feasible as a rental.  I guess you could probably add one pretty easily, but with the potential for both long-term and short-term rentals near the UW putting it in during construction seems like a no-brainer -- I mean, even if you only use that space as a rec room/kids hang out area, a small kitchen with a sink, microwave and fridge would be a plus.

Under current rules if you want to permit an ADU on your property in Seattle you need to file a covenant promising that the owner will always live on site. While I'm sure pretty much anyone buying a brand new $2 million house in Seattle is doing so with the intention to live there, who would really promise that their life will never take them out of town for a couple years? If I were building houses for an undetermined buyer, I wouldn't want to limit the pool of customers in that way. Instead I'd put in all the plumbing and electrical connections needed for the buyer to easily make that upgrade if they want, but not take that final step.

Good news on that front is that legislation to loosen this and other onerous ADU permitting requirements is nearing the finish line after many years of "environmental" appeals from anti-housing groups.
Can't speak for Seattle but...we have the same ADU rule here (owner must live on site).

I assume that means that, if you need to go out of town for a year or so, then you can rent your main house but not the ADU.

seattlecyclone

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2019, 03:55:33 PM »
Can't speak for Seattle but...we have the same ADU rule here (owner must live on site).

I assume that means that, if you need to go out of town for a year or so, then you can rent your main house but not the ADU.

Actually the rule as written says that the ADU must be physically "decommissioned," which I understand to mean that you must remove enough of the kitchen that the city doesn't consider it to be a separate habitable dwelling unit anymore. So that backyard cottage that you paid upwards of $200k to build is now a really nice backyard shed that you're not allowed to recoup your investment on anymore, and you have to hire a contractor to put the kitchen back in when you move back to town. And if you happened to have a renter living there at the time you decided to leave? Too bad for them. They have to go. It's very hard for me to see the good in this policy.

Telecaster

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2019, 04:29:48 PM »
I guess that makes sense -- looking forward to those zoning changes if/when they ever come.

If I were in the  market for a 1.5-2 mill house, I'd take this one over Telecaster's neighbor any day:

https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/10049-Lake-Shore-Blvd-NE-98125/home/318854

It's not waterfront (that would probably push it up to 2.2-2.5 mill), but it has the lake view and is just a few blocks from the public access at Matthews Beach, and right off the BG.  I love that street.....  Much better yard than the Wedgwood and View Ridge houses, too.  I think this one will go fast, and for at or over list.

I used to live a block from that house in Lakeshore Blvd NE.   The morning I moved out there was a amazing sunrise over Lake Washington and I remember thinking "WTF am I doing?"

robartsd

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2019, 04:44:28 PM »
Pretty easy to make "not a kitchen" function as a kitchen. Just leave out the major cooking appliance and be sure to provide a wet bar with plenty of counter space and regular electrical circuits. Some combination of microwave, portable induction burner, toaster oven, and/or automatic cooking pot can meet just about all small scale cooking needs. Add a fridge and without any "remodeling" you have a functional kitchen.

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #87 on: July 10, 2019, 07:53:55 PM »
If she is patient, it will be foreclosed on in the next down turn...

Lots on my street are 15,000 sf plus, with setbacks required.  No sidewalks.  There is one house a couple of blocks up that has been expanded to the maximum coverage,  Setbacks plus an upslope in back keep it from being too overbearing.  Not many first generation immigrants here, so less of an expectation this type of project will be done.  Entry price point of $1.5MM keeps a lot of this crap out.

Going to be a lot of demand here from those high paid Google types once the downtown campus is finished.  The higher lever managers and executives that will buy here will have a handle on the City bureaucrats and politicians so preservation is likely.


Another Reader

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #88 on: July 11, 2019, 04:46:12 AM »
The real estate market is cyclical.  Sometimes the cycles are more extreme than typical.  Make investment decisions with that in mind...

Telecaster

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #89 on: July 11, 2019, 10:43:19 AM »
Another scraper just sold in my neighborhood

https://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/6842-36th-Ave-NE-98115/home/317609

$688,000.   I assume it is a scraper anyway.   The house has never been updated.   


MayDay

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2019, 12:56:05 PM »
Llamo and Telecaster, the two "modern" houses you posted at the top of this page totally fascinate me.

I'm no architect bit they seem like a cheap hodgepodge of the various "modern" random decors you can buy on Wayfair. And I say that as someone who has furnished much of my house in exactly that way! But my house is worth 300k, lol. And I am also not a "professional".

It just boggles my mind that at that price point you wouldn't have an actual architect or designer who produces a cohesive high quality design.

I'm not just talking about the furnishings (which I'm sure is just staging), but the choices of finishes and the layout. It just does BAD, and if it is bad in pictures, it's probably really bad in person.

And also I hate their photography.


ChpBstrd

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #91 on: July 11, 2019, 01:19:49 PM »
Llamo and Telecaster, the two "modern" houses you posted at the top of this page totally fascinate me.

I'm no architect bit they seem like a cheap hodgepodge of the various "modern" random decors you can buy on Wayfair. And I say that as someone who has furnished much of my house in exactly that way! But my house is worth 300k, lol. And I am also not a "professional".

It just boggles my mind that at that price point you wouldn't have an actual architect or designer who produces a cohesive high quality design.

I'm not just talking about the furnishings (which I'm sure is just staging), but the choices of finishes and the layout. It just does BAD, and if it is bad in pictures, it's probably really bad in person.

And also I hate their photography.

If the hatred runs deep enough, you could always submit it to McMansionHell.com . Just saying.

MayDay

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #92 on: July 11, 2019, 01:56:21 PM »
Llamo and Telecaster, the two "modern" houses you posted at the top of this page totally fascinate me.

I'm no architect bit they seem like a cheap hodgepodge of the various "modern" random decors you can buy on Wayfair. And I say that as someone who has furnished much of my house in exactly that way! But my house is worth 300k, lol. And I am also not a "professional".

It just boggles my mind that at that price point you wouldn't have an actual architect or designer who produces a cohesive high quality design.

I'm not just talking about the furnishings (which I'm sure is just staging), but the choices of finishes and the layout. It just does BAD, and if it is bad in pictures, it's probably really bad in person.

And also I hate their photography.

If the hatred runs deep enough, you could always submit it to McMansionHell.com . Just saying.

I love that blog, but it has been super slow lately. Do you by chance subscribe to her Patreon? I've been wondering if there is enough content to justify it given the small amount of content on the main blog.

It would be cool to see her analysis of a modern mcmansion.

Abe

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #93 on: July 13, 2019, 12:58:42 PM »
If they'd just make some attempt, just even consider for a second, a bit of symmetry, a lot of the architecture in suburban US would be much nicer. Some of the roof profiles look like a semi-random pile of shingles. Also wouldn't it be cheaper to have windows that are the same size rather than a random assortment of sizes?


Another Reader

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #94 on: July 14, 2019, 05:19:30 PM »
If they'd just make some attempt, just even consider for a second, a bit of symmetry, a lot of the architecture in suburban US would be much nicer. Some of the roof profiles look like a semi-random pile of shingles. Also wouldn't it be cheaper to have windows that are the same size rather than a random assortment of sizes?
I went on a little tour of some of the big new construction houses within about 5 miles and so many (all?) were really over kill on all the house "amenities" with various turrets, towers, abutment, gargoyles, etc. Especially since most (all?) were in hoods comprised of very modest small single story houses. Although in the right setting or just alone the are beautiful in a macmansion he'll kind of way.

One that was for sale and had an open house  was a new construction  house similar in size to the house being built in my old hood but more modern and contemporary then most that are going up and also.doesn't have an ADU and also 2 less bedrooms and baths. It sold for $310k and now they are asking $1,475,000.

  https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/14771-Donegal-Dr-Garden-Grove-CA-92844/25188011_zpid/

And here's a nice little house near by the I'm sure @HBFIRE is familiar with.

When the 7.5 magnitude hits on the nearby fault system, the soil (sand) will likely liquefy and these beasts will sink into the morass.  Only the turrets will remain in view.  Kind of like the La Brea tar pits...

Abe

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2019, 06:29:56 PM »
If they'd just make some attempt, just even consider for a second, a bit of symmetry, a lot of the architecture in suburban US would be much nicer. Some of the roof profiles look like a semi-random pile of shingles. Also wouldn't it be cheaper to have windows that are the same size rather than a random assortment of sizes?
I went on a little tour of some of the big new construction houses within about 5 miles and so many (all?) were really over kill on all the house "amenities" with various turrets, towers, abutment, gargoyles, etc. Especially since most (all?) were in hoods comprised of very modest small single story houses. Although in the right setting or just alone the are beautiful in a macmansion he'll kind of way.

One that was for sale and had an open house  was a new construction  house similar in size to the house being built in my old hood but more modern and contemporary then most that are going up and also.doesn't have an ADU and also 2 less bedrooms and baths. It sold for $310k and now they are asking $1,475,000.

  https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/14771-Donegal-Dr-Garden-Grove-CA-92844/25188011_zpid/

And here's a nice little house near by the I'm sure @HBFIRE is familiar with.

When the 7.5 magnitude hits on the nearby fault system, the soil (sand) will likely liquefy and these beasts will sink into the morass.  Only the turrets will remain in view.  Kind of like the La Brea tar pits...

I’m definitely evacuating my family when that happens. My surgical skills will be needed, but otherwise I’d leave too. It will take several years to recover. I doubt my rental is if unusually high quality, and it being a rental I can’t have it retrofitted. Also no turrets so...

BicycleB

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2019, 09:26:10 PM »

When the 7.5 magnitude hits on the nearby fault system, the soil (sand) will likely liquefy and these beasts will sink into the morass. 

What? You can't build a house on sand??? LOL.

 

Only the turrets will remain in view.  Kind of like the La Brea tar pits...

California is still a good place to see cinematic sights, then. (nods, duly impressed at SoCal's creative foresight)

zolotiyeruki

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2019, 09:34:02 PM »
If they'd just make some attempt, just even consider for a second, a bit of symmetry, a lot of the architecture in suburban US would be much nicer. Some of the roof profiles look like a semi-random pile of shingles. Also wouldn't it be cheaper to have windows that are the same size rather than a random assortment of sizes?
I think part of the issue is that the people paying for these houses have lots of money and a big wish list, but lack practical design skills or any sense of architectural design.  It's a classic case of "Your <homeowners> were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."  So you get "ooh, a turret looks cool, I want one!" and "I neeeeed a five-car garage!" and "we can afford a pool!" with no realization that turrets are horribly unusable, the only reason you want a five-car garage is because you have too much junk, and that pools are maintenance-intensive and just generally a pain in the neck.

Several years ago, DW and I happened upon an open house for this house (realtor.com listing) near Houston.  (That road is lined with a couple dozen McMansions, across the street from a golf course)  To call it ridiculous is to be too kind, although it had no turrets (some of the neighbors do, though!).  If you'd like a little entertainment, zillow and realtor.com both still have some photos, but from what I remember:

--From the top of the front stairs, you could see no fewer than three different types of hardwood flooring--one in the upstairs, a second in the office (visible in the remaining photos on zillow), and a third in the formal dining room.
--The master bathroom had ugly, (worn) gold-leaf swan-shaped faucets, and a jetted tub up on a plinth.
--There were 5 separate A/C units for the house
--Every bedroom had a private bathroom
--The enormous kitchen had a giant, T-shaped island, top-of-the-line appliances of all kinds, and cobblestone floors.
--The small powder room off the kitchen had three different patterns of wallpaper, including leopard print.
--The upstairs bonus room had Route 66-themed wallpaper, and the furniture had matching upholstery.

It's been a long time since then, so I'm sure I've forgotten a lot of the details.  But it was at once humorous because of the lack of taste, and a little bit depressing, because it felt like a home where a six-person family would live separate lives.

Seriously, though, if you're looking for some high-quality architectural humor, take a Street View Stroll down Cypresswood Drive.

Abe

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2019, 10:30:21 PM »
Yeah, people rich enough for a clown house but not rich enough for a designer or architect. That house sounds like a sad Epcot center Disneyland ride. I kind had of want to see it now.

ChpBstrd

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Re: House next door razed. Giant mcmansion to be built. Sell now or wait?
« Reply #99 on: July 15, 2019, 10:12:02 AM »
But it was at once humorous because of the lack of taste, and a little bit depressing, because it felt like a home where a six-person family would live separate lives.

McMansions and luxury SUVs are physical expressions of the idea that stuff=happiness and stuff=love. These associations are reinforced by advertising to the point that many people adopt consumerism as a personal philosophy/religion.

The executives working 70+ hour weeks to pay for these things genuinely believe they and their families have a “better” life than than those middle class blokes who share bathrooms, lack 5-car garages, and must swim at public pools. Surely all that space/luxury and the social status symbols function to remove stress, help the family cohere, and make joy happen just as the marketers promised. If for some reason one is not absolutely thrilled with McMansion life or if the kids come to resent their absentee parents, it could only be because one is underspending on luxury. That’s the only logical explanation within the stuff=happiness/ stuff=love framework.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!