What a great discussion!!
I'm looking forward to watching the YouTube video mozar linked to, and listening to the Need to Know episode ryanthequark mentioned. Will do.
Justified lies? I have a pretty clear policy, and have taught it to my son: To me it's okay to lie to:
(a) facilitate a benign surprise, fairytale, etc (party, gift, Santa, etc);
(b) protect health or life (your own or someone else's);
(c) protect confidentiality (your own or someone else's).
e.g., Hiding people from genocide attempts, or claiming so-and-so had not been my client in the methadone clinic when asked straight-up by a person whose business it wasn't. As Lyssa put it, "an appropriate defense against inappropriate questions and requests."
At the same time, I teach him that outside of these to be as honest as possible. I really believe that most matters can be responded to honestly. If someone asks me how I am, I'm one of those people who says, "Great!" Or, "Not so hot, actually, but I'm going to go for a walk in a bit and feel better." And I only ask others even this question when I have the courage and time to truly listen. And I highly value taking some minutes to truly hear a cashier's true answer.
Me, I don't see it as lying to say, "[Donation to SIL] is not in the budget" if it's not. But in my case, I literally have a budget line for "gifts to family, strangers" so I wouldn't say that. But I would say, "No." Or, "I'll think about it and let you know if I decide yes." Or, "I've looked at my finances and decided not to."
I think honesty does demand courage and time. I know that for me, a major interest in FIRE was that it gives us time to be honest. We can ponder before responding. We can spend 15 minutes really listening to and receiving another's reaction. We can negotiate. The last partner that was doing a lot of lying was always in a hurry, and I think that really impacted his willingness to be truthful. He didn't want to be diverted from moving quickly. Me, my big dream in my early 20s was to have enough time to "be available" to others, to work out the truth and tell it, etc.
I know my last partner admired my honesty, and was starting to actively practice it, actually try it. That was cool to watch. The example of Lyssa's friend calling back to tell the truth, to me that's the ultimate in awesome! A phenomenal example of courage. When we mess up because of past habits based on crappy experiences, taking this option shows incredible integrity and strength. I would surely trust this person!
Grid: Funny you mention that...In a counselling session a year or so ago, I realized I sometimes find other people's lying/cheating/etc refreshing. lol. I was kind of fascinated by their relative lack of conscience, and thought that must be a sort of relaxing way to live!