Author Topic: honesty & money in relationship  (Read 14352 times)

scrubbyfish

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honesty & money in relationship
« on: April 01, 2015, 09:57:18 AM »
Reflecting on a very specific catch-point in my life; would really love to hear the wisdom.

I'm creative and flexible and think things through to make my own decisions, but I'm also pretty "by the book". If there's a rule, or what seems to me like a reasonable fact, I err on the side of honesty. If there's uncertainty, I'll ask, pursue a negotiation, etc.

This morning I realized that the common thread in why I've left the relationships I've left is because of the partner's dishonesty.

When one sold an item on Craigslist, the buyer accidentally handed him an extra $100, and he kept it.
They buy stolen items.
On their taxes, they don't report entire side businesses.
They lie to get reductions in insurance premiums, or to be able to get insurance at all.
Etc.
It's not all money -they lie to me about anything from what they had for lunch to who they ate it with- but I use the above examples because of the forum we're on.

I do know people who have decided to ignore dishonesty in a partner. One woman told me it's that, fight, or divorce because her husband believes in these approaches to wealth and freedom.

Questions to you:

Have you all found super honest partners? i.e., Do they exist?
Or do you think that to partner, one must be willing to ignore/live with some dishonesty?
What forms or degrees of honesty/dishonesty are acceptable to you, totally no worries?

JLee

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2015, 10:03:03 AM »
Quote
Have you all found super honest partners? i.e., Do they exist?
I have one. :)

Quote
What forms or degrees of honesty/dishonesty are acceptable to you, totally no worries?
Dishonesty for purposes of 'positive deception', i.e. surprise party or something, is fine. Anything else? Not so much.

Skipper

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2015, 10:04:28 AM »
I think putting up with any level of dishonesty that makes you uncomfortable will eventually destroy the relationship, and everyone's level of that is different. If it bugged you that much, keep looking for someone who doesn't do those things. In my experience they exist.

My boyfriend only lies about stupid stuff (blaming traffic for being late when he left late, etc.). If he lied about anything bigger, like who he was eating meals out with, I'd have a big problem with it. That said, maybe the things that I label "stupid" would be a big deal to you, and that's your prerogative. No one else can judge what's right for you.

Sibley

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2015, 10:05:06 AM »
You're dating the wrong type of people. Try giving someone who's completely not your "type" a chance.

swick

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2015, 10:10:52 AM »

Questions to you:

Have you all found super honest partners? i.e., Do they exist?
Or do you think that to partner, one must be willing to ignore/live with some dishonesty?
What forms or degrees of honesty/dishonesty are acceptable to you, totally no worries?

I have totally left relationships for pathological lying/issues with honesty, several in fact. I have found my super honest partner though, and value it more than anything.

These questions:
Quote
Or do you think that to partner, one must be willing to ignore/live with some dishonesty?
What forms or degrees of honesty/dishonesty are acceptable to you, totally no worries

Are a little grayer. I think there has to be some sort of sliding scale. The research on deception is that in the average 10 minute conversation the average person will lie 2-3 times. The might be little white lies, lies of omission, big whoppers or anything in between. So everyone has to decide what personal level they are okay with...not only accepting from their partner, but what they are willing to tell. Some lies are so internalized they become "fact"

When you ask the cashier at the store "how are you?" do you really want to hear anything other then "I'm fine, thanks, how are you?"

If someone asks for your help, do you say "Sorry, I cant" because that is a lie, usually the truth is more "Sorry I don't WANT to"

Usually I try my hardest to re-frame something so I don't have to lie, or deliver the truth a little less brutally.

Interesting thought exercise






MsPeacock

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2015, 10:14:45 AM »
BF is super honest and I value it highly.

Cheating ex-H was not honest, obviously- and lied about many things. He would be the sort not to tell if he got extra change by mistake, or would lie on his taxes. He hated getting caught in lies and the resulting consequences, but that had no impact on his behavior.

Gray Matter

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2015, 10:16:30 AM »
I agree that you're dating the wrong type and don't have to accept that kind of dishonesty in a relationship.  That said, I think a totally honest person is rare (and might be something like autistic).  Most people lie, mostly white lies designed not to hurt others feelings or to get themselves out of minor trouble.

I consider myself very honest, but occasionally engage in (what I think are minor) lies of omission.  Like, once DH came across a receipt for a $500 donation I made and had a hissy fit (he feels little compunction to donate).  I told him that I'm going to continue to donate money, that it's an important value of mine, and I just quietly do it.  He has full access to our on-line records and paper files, but he doesn't look, and he doesn't ask.  If he did ask, I would tell him how much I give away, but I'm not going to announce it because I know he wouldn't like it.

DH, on the other hand, used to lie when we first got married about little things, and it really bothered me.  I think it stemmed from growing up with a tyrant of a dad who meted our overly harsh punishment.  It was safer/smarter to lie about things to try to get out of them, and that carried over into his adult life.  He always swore he never lied about important stuff (and I believe him), but I had to let him know that lying about little things make me worry about lying about the big stuff, and I also had to learn not to make a big deal out of every little thing so he didn't feel like he had to lie, and I do absolutely trust him even though his first impulse is sometimes to lie to avoid conflict.  He's not what I would call unethical (doesn't lie about taxes, income, whereabouts, etc.), and that matters a great deal to me.
 

Coonz

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2015, 10:36:10 AM »
I'm honestly ;) a little shocked that you have found a string of partners who have been so dishonest. Perhaps it is a byproduct of a certain personality quirk that you seek out in a partner. I am just a youngin so perhaps people get worse with age, but I have never found a problem finding honest folk to keep company with.

If honesty is important to you, do not ignore it. It sounds like their form of dishonesty is out of selfishness. Do you want a selfish partner? Do you want a partner who serves their self before taking any other person into consideration? As others have mentioned, some forms of dishonesty (white lies) are used to help encourage people (you're almost at the top of this hill!!) or to help lubricate social situations (sorry I missed last week's luncheon, I was under the weather vs. I WAS PUKING MY BRAINS OUT).

Seriously, the behavior you outlined is messed up. Wouldn't you rather have a partner that uses $100 to anonymously do a good deed....or invest it in retirement??... rather than steal it from somebody? That does not speak well of their moral fiber. What comes next, taking money out of YOUR wallet? Selling your possessions without telling you? Lying about their location at all times? Putting your joint/married finances at risk with tax fraud? Lying about their income so they can hide their personal money without you knowing? Lying about you and your behavior in order to get custody/alimony when you finally decide to divorce such a person? Look down the line and think about the way the "smaller" behaviors could manifest in the future. That is a dangerous road to follow.

Yes, I believe in honest people. I have several decade-long friendships and have enjoyed several partners with people who find no reason/value in living a dishonest life. Those who live on a foundation of dishonest practices tend not to make it past the acquaintance stage. Stop settling.

Allie

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2015, 11:00:42 AM »
My lovely husband is usually pretty honest.  He'll exaggerate to make a good story, like the time he was chased by a bear and it was the size of a house ;), or misrepresent his experiences to make others feel better, like how I am ssoooo witty all of the time.  If he is being dishonest about other things he is really good at it and I have no idea.

But, you aren't talking about honesty vs. dishonesty.  You are talking about care for others vs. self interest.  All of the examples you gave, and likely the ones you didn't list because they weren't money related, involved your partners using other people to their advantage.  Taking from others what is not offered for their own personal gain by any means necessary.  Anyone who actively seeks to siphon off the happiness and resources of others should be avoided.  Happiness and success are not a zero sum game anyone who plays that way will end up hurting people.

scrubbyfish

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2015, 11:05:43 AM »
Interesting!! And a RELIEF!!! Truly, a relief!

I'm so excited to know that you folks value honesty very much, and have found partners who do too.

Absolutely I know not to settle anymore, yes. But I was wondering if such honesty is "neurotic" (which would be the kind of case these past partners would try to make about me) or, yes, specific to autism spectrum disorder (because I lean that way). On the other hand, I let my kid "lie" to me this morning doing a heap of April's Fools jokes on me, and I "lied" to him by pretending he'd fooled me, lol. So I'm definitely roomy with what I consider benign/playful/silly, including Santa Claus when they're little (I had a neighbour that was opposed to this, and gave me what for about it), surprise parties, etc.

I have lots of friends who are honest, and my family members are, but yep, found a string of blatantly dishonest partners and also colleagues/professionals/etc. So I was wondering if my "standard" for honesty is simply too high or if it is healthy (therefore meetable).

Coonz, most of the other examples you gave -of the next manifestations of this habit- I also witnessed in them, yes.

I'm single now, and have been single for a year. I'm interested in partnering, and am exploring these kinds of things to prevent the same scenario. Alternatively, I came to this thread open to the possibility that this kind of dishonesty may be a trade-off for partnership, in which case I'd have to decide whether I really want one or not. I've learned I really cannot tolerate it, but wondered if I should be learning how to, much the same as I had to learn how to do some math, which was also very difficult/intolerable for me.

I don't have a "type" physically, but definitely my favourite people are independent thinkers, creative, gentle, etc. Off hand I can't think of any specific trait I love that would lead to dishonesty. Perhaps I've also been drawn to people who are immature or selfish OR that I'm a little too trusting before that's merited. Off hand, the latter rings resoundingly true, and certainly people in my life have said this.

swick

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2015, 11:16:11 AM »

I don't have a "type" physically, but definitely my favourite people are independent thinkers, creative, gentle, etc.

This is interesting. I think in general people who are more independent thinks/creatives tend to not necessarily outright lie - but are more creative with the truth, or see things in many shades of grey as opposed to black and white. Also "lying" can be a form of self preservation. Many times people fundamentally don't understand you or your thought processes, or you are asked/forced to conform to situations that stifle you (traditional school, work etc) <--- thoughts from someone who would consider themselves "honest" but also "creative" who work with a lot of creative people.

Dicey

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2015, 11:27:48 AM »
You're dating the wrong type of people. Try giving someone who's completely not your "type" a chance.
+1000
I didn't marry until late in life, but I dated loads of men. My job allowed me to meet a wide variety of men*, but I think I was looking for the wrong type of man. I dated one great guy after another, but few of the relationships felt just right. The ones I thought were a good fit didn't think I was right for them. I finally just kind of gave up and focused on getting my shit together so I could finally FIRE.

The guy I married is nothing like anyone I dated before. We've been married two and a half years and I never imagined it could be so good.

A long preamble to answer your question. You must pay attention to everything in the early stages of a relationship. Anything that makes you uncomfortable must be examined. Many times I made the mistake of thinking "Well, he's good about a, b and c so I'd hand him the rest of the alphabet and ultimately be disappointed. Pay attention to the little things beccause soon enough the bad ones become Big Things.

DH is not the type of man I thought I'd marry, but I am oh, so glad I waited for him. All the BS and heartbreak was worth it in the end. And yes, he's honest. And kind, and fair in his dealings with people, good with money, able to distinguish between wants and needs, etc. x3.

*Don't get any funnny ideas. I sold men's clothing at Nordstrom in major cities for ten years.

scrubbyfish

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2015, 12:05:20 PM »
Also "lying" can be a form of self preservation. Many times people fundamentally don't understand you or your thought processes, or you are asked/forced to conform to situations that stifle you (traditional school, work etc)

Yep. When I was younger, I dated people who (like me) had survived abuse, lived on the streets, etc. So, some of their moves during and shortly after that stage I could understand: If you didn't lie/cheat/steal, you didn't eat.

What threw me more was where we were all moving into better lives, some continued lying/cheating/etc. It was no longer about physical survival; it had become an ingrained habit or something.

Then, what threw me even more were the last few, who had never had dire circumstances and just seemed to lie almost randomly. Even though it wasn't about surviving dire circumstances, it still seemed like an effort of self-preservation. In some cases, an effort to "keep everyone happy", but specifically as though they could not tolerate anyone else's disappointment or anger. In other cases, a belief that cheating was the only way to get ahead financially. I guess I don't want to date people who attempt to "keep everyone happy" at the expense of authentic living, honest relationships, etc, nor a person who believes that cheating is the only path to financial success (especially while they blow big amounts on non-essentials).

scrubbyfish

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2015, 12:07:33 PM »
Many times I made the mistake of thinking "Well, he's good about a, b and c so I'd hand him the rest of the alphabet and ultimately be disappointed. Pay attention to the little things beccause soon enough the bad ones become Big Things.

How perfectly stated!!! Yes, the alphabet-handing is what I did.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2015, 12:12:42 PM »
I have a super honest and generous guy, although he tends to exaggerate stories. I think it's because he misremembers details so he truly believes the exaggerations. George Costanza would be proud: it's not a lie if you believe it.

mozar

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2015, 08:17:40 PM »
Oh scrubbyfish!* When someone does something that goes against your values, your reaction to that behavior is an indication that it won't work out for you. This is otherwise known as a red flag.
If honesty is on your list of requirements (which it sounds like it is), disregard all suitors who aren't.
I just watched this, I liked it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3fIZuW9P_M

*My heart goes out to you!
p.s. also consider telling people you trust what you are looking for in your town. Use the good looks to find what you are looking for!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 08:45:26 PM by mozar »

ender

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2015, 08:33:35 PM »
Pretty sure you are dating losers.

ryanthequark

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2015, 11:16:41 PM »
The latest episode of This American Life, which I love, has a fascinating story about a family that believed in utter honesty, and the impact it had on the children. It's the "need to know" episode, and it may pertain.



deborah

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2015, 04:19:50 AM »
This was definitely a deal breaker for me a few times. SO definitely doesn't lie - I can remember him finding a wallet many years ago with several thousand dollars in it in a red light district. He handed it to the cops, who said that no-one would claim it because it was either a druggie's or a pimp's - turned out it was the local baker making deliveries (and he did claim it).

Sometimes it depends a bit on your workplace and friendship group as to how much is tolerated. At my past workplace honesty was very much valued. A few of us were in a seminar where the guy gave each group a card, in what was effectively a cheating game. Each group was given an ace (ace was low), but we were to say what we had received, and the group who said second highest card won a prize. Our group was only the second in all the years he had run the course that didn't cheat (the other groups all did).

Catomi

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2015, 05:05:07 AM »
Out of curiosity, what level of honesty do you expect from a partner in dealing with yourself vs other people? I think of my SO as being pretty honest (and he's very good at being upfront with me, including on big/tough topics). However, there is a fair to good chance that my SIL (his sister) will ask us for money soon. We are nowhere near FIRE but have a lot more than someone living paycheck to paycheck (by choice, though she'd deny it if asked). And, after discussing it between ourselves, we have no intention of helping her financially, and no intention of letting on that we could. If her family is going to wind up homeless then we will let them live with us briefly, but otherwise "our budget doesn't allow for that." I have no qualms about telling her this, though it is a lie, and depending on your perspective a pretty big one.

deborah

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2015, 05:07:54 AM »
But your budget DOES NOT allow for that - it is not a lie - it is the truth (if, unlike me, you have a budget). I can guarantee there is not a line item "Help SIL" with a $ figure for it.

Catomi

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2015, 05:16:06 AM »
But your budget DOES NOT allow for that - it is not a lie - it is the truth (if, unlike me, you have a budget). I can guarantee there is not a line item "Help SIL" with a $ figure for it.

Nope, there sure isn't!  I'm sure she wouldn't see it this way, though.

Lyssa

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2015, 06:09:15 AM »
DH, on the other hand, used to lie when we first got married about little things, and it really bothered me.  I think it stemmed from growing up with a tyrant of a dad who meted our overly harsh punishment.  It was safer/smarter to lie about things to try to get out of them, and that carried over into his adult life.  He always swore he never lied about important stuff (and I believe him), but I had to let him know that lying about little things make me worry about lying about the big stuff, and I also had to learn not to make a big deal out of every little thing so he didn't feel like he had to lie, and I do absolutely trust him even though his first impulse is sometimes to lie to avoid conflict.  He's not what I would call unethical (doesn't lie about taxes, income, whereabouts, etc.), and that matters a great deal to me.

Sounds familiar. SO used to and sometimes still does answer 'yes' when I ask 'did you do xyz', despite the fact that he didn't. That's simply because any 'no, not yet' would have resulted in a beating from his father when he was a kid. Drives me nuts, but I try to factor in my understanding where this is coming from.

Same for a friend who grew up with an alcoholic father. She once cancelled a meeting with me under some pretense only to call five minutes later and tell me 'i'm sorry, but I just lied to you. The truth is, when you asked if I have time for x, I forgot I alreaedy had commited to do y. I just did not want to admit.' This call impressed me and I can see how covering up the drunken episodes and hangovers of your father can instill a habit of dishonesty which is difficult to break.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 06:16:29 AM by Lyssa »

Lyssa

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2015, 06:24:38 AM »
But your budget DOES NOT allow for that - it is not a lie - it is the truth (if, unlike me, you have a budget). I can guarantee there is not a line item "Help SIL" with a $ figure for it.

Lying and making up witty justifications is still lying. :-)

The truth is, most people - myself included - judge how bad or benign a certain lie is also according to whom you're lying to. I guess nobody would defend 'this is not in our budget' or 'we can't afford it' if told to one's spouse. To relatives looking for a handout? Fine with most people.

I think this has something to do with the lie being seen as an appropriate defense against inappropriate questions and requests. Much like the legal concept in the EU when an applicant for a job is granted the right to lie when answering illegal questions (most prominently 'are you pregnant').
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 08:36:14 AM by Lyssa »

deborah

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2015, 06:32:42 AM »
Is that a witty justification? Anyway, I don't have a budget, so I wouldn't use that excuse. "Our money is all earmarked for other things" is what I would say - and it is true. Just like SO says that he will do something, but that he still has time to procrastinate about when (there are some things that are yet to be done, but are still on his list, after 20 years - but he still intends to do them some day).

Grid

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2015, 06:55:22 AM »
Hey scrubbyfish,

Perhaps you are attracted to men who are more dishonest than usual due to your unusually high level of sincerity?  Just a question.

scrubbyfish

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2015, 08:18:29 AM »
What a great discussion!!

I'm looking forward to watching the YouTube video mozar linked to, and listening to the Need to Know episode ryanthequark mentioned. Will do.

Justified lies? I have a pretty clear policy, and have taught it to my son: To me it's okay to lie to:
(a) facilitate a benign surprise, fairytale, etc (party, gift, Santa, etc);
(b) protect health or life (your own or someone else's);
(c) protect confidentiality (your own or someone else's).

e.g., Hiding people from genocide attempts, or claiming so-and-so had not been my client in the methadone clinic when asked straight-up by a person whose business it wasn't. As Lyssa put it, "an appropriate defense against inappropriate questions and requests."

At the same time, I teach him that outside of these to be as honest as possible. I really believe that most matters can be responded to honestly. If someone asks me how I am, I'm one of those people who says, "Great!" Or, "Not so hot, actually, but I'm going to go for a walk in a bit and feel better." And I only ask others even this question when I have the courage and time to truly listen. And I highly value taking some minutes to truly hear a cashier's true answer.

Me, I don't see it as lying to say, "[Donation to SIL] is not in the budget" if it's not. But in my case, I literally have a budget line for "gifts to family, strangers" so I wouldn't say that. But I would say, "No." Or, "I'll think about it and let you know if I decide yes." Or, "I've looked at my finances and decided not to."

I think honesty does demand courage and time. I know that for me, a major interest in FIRE was that it gives us time to be honest. We can ponder before responding. We can spend 15 minutes really listening to and receiving another's reaction. We can negotiate. The last partner that was doing a lot of lying was always in a hurry, and I think that really impacted his willingness to be truthful. He didn't want to be diverted from moving quickly. Me, my big dream in my early 20s was to have enough time to "be available" to others, to work out the truth and tell it, etc.

I know my last partner admired my honesty, and was starting to actively practice it, actually try it. That was cool to watch. The example of Lyssa's friend calling back to tell the truth, to me that's the ultimate in awesome! A phenomenal example of courage. When we mess up because of past habits based on crappy experiences, taking this option shows incredible integrity and strength. I would surely trust this person!

Grid: Funny you mention that...In a counselling session a year or so ago, I realized I sometimes find other people's lying/cheating/etc refreshing. lol. I was kind of fascinated by their relative lack of conscience, and thought that must be a sort of relaxing way to live!

frugaldrummer

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2015, 08:57:40 AM »
My husband showed these kinds of "minor" dishonesty starting when we were dating. I overlooked them and bought his argument that I was too uptight (good Cstholic girl).

Well, I'm divorced now and guess why?  Yup, he cheated on me. Don't ignore those things, they say something about character.


begood

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2015, 10:09:41 AM »
My husband and my father are the two most ethical men I  know. I joke that I married my dad, but it's absolutely true that I looked for some of the qualities I love in my dad when looking for a partner: reliability, honesty, strong moral compass.

Those kinds of people definitely exist, and I think they make wonderful partners because they tend to be consistent.

As a parent, I tell my kid, "Tell me the truth about small things and I'll believe you about big things."
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 07:42:04 AM by begood »

scrubbyfish

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2015, 10:14:20 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3fIZuW9P_M

Oh wow, I LOVED this, mozar! What a delightful presenter, a gorgeous hearty laugh! (I would marry her!) I've been a fan of self-marriage for a long time, a big believer in its premise, but it was more compelling to me hearing it from her than from some others, with her childhood, bumpy journey, etc. I also like that she landed at what the founder of somatic experiencing therapy calls "felt sense", which is what I've been actively learning for a couple of months now and am increasingly looking to. (After one date, I vomited. How was that for overwhelming felt sense? And then I dated him for several years. So you all see where I've gone wrong. However, I've had no such wrong turns in five years now.)

It's strange to me that I haven't known that I might be able to be with a person who is not only smart, funny, creative, and independent-in-thought, but also reliable, honest, kind, etc. Something I love about this forum is all the evidence I get of how many people there are like this. Good news!

I did have a neat experience yesterday, spending about half an hour with a person I'd only known in passing, and finding myself so comfortable and increasingly happy in her presence. I realized I felt safe, soothed, increasingly relaxed and warm. I liked how gentle she was, while also being true to herself and excited in her very introverted way about her Life. The day before that, I spent some time with another woman who I realized is a heckuvalot like me -very introverted, very organized, minimalist, etc, but also something in her manner, perhaps another INFJ- so I asked her how she and her (equally lovely) husband found each other. So, stepping gently toward the next round of exploration.

Killerbrandt

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2015, 06:01:04 AM »
My wife is the most honest person I know! I understand there are times to lie for safety reasons or confidentiality, but overall it is very important to find someone honest for the most part. It is a hard challenge to find that person, but they are out there.

lifejoy

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2015, 10:51:25 AM »
My partner is insanely honest. In our early days I would try on an outfit at a store and ask him what he thought: "Blech" was his brutally honest answer! Haha I introduced him to the art of tact and sugar-coating ;)

So I would say it is 100% possible to find an honest guy. I would accept nothing less, myself.

mtn

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2015, 11:07:08 AM »
In general, I have no room for lying. There are some exceptions that haven't been noted here, but those are few and far between, and extremely special cases.

The one that comes to mind is a sports official. In instances where you cannot reverse the call, there are times when, depending on the game, you will back up your partner 100% even if you know the call was wrong. There are not many situations like this--most of the time it is better to say "Hey, look, I missed that one. I apologize", but there are instances where defending the wrong thing is the right thing to do.

lifejoy

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2015, 11:12:13 AM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3fIZuW9P_M

Oh wow, I LOVED this, mozar! What a delightful presenter, a gorgeous hearty laugh! (I would marry her!) I've been a fan of self-marriage for a long time, a big believer in its premise, but it was more compelling to me hearing it from her than from some others, with her childhood, bumpy journey, etc. I also like that she landed at what the founder of somatic experiencing therapy calls "felt sense", which is what I've been actively learning for a couple of months now and am increasingly looking to. (After one date, I vomited. How was that for overwhelming felt sense? And then I dated him for several years. So you all see where I've gone wrong. However, I've had no such wrong turns in five years now.)

It's strange to me that I haven't known that I might be able to be with a person who is not only smart, funny, creative, and independent-in-thought, but also reliable, honest, kind, etc. Something I love about this forum is all the evidence I get of how many people there are like this. Good news!

I did have a neat experience yesterday, spending about half an hour with a person I'd only known in passing, and finding myself so comfortable and increasingly happy in her presence. I realized I felt safe, soothed, increasingly relaxed and warm. I liked how gentle she was, while also being true to herself and excited in her very introverted way about her Life. The day before that, I spent some time with another woman who I realized is a heckuvalot like me -very introverted, very organized, minimalist, etc, but also something in her manner, perhaps another INFJ- so I asked her how she and her (equally lovely) husband found each other. So, stepping gently toward the next round of exploration.

+1 great video!!

bacchi

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2015, 01:09:17 PM »
In some cases, an effort to "keep everyone happy", but specifically as though they could not tolerate anyone else's disappointment or anger.

These people are sometimes in the same category as those who are always late. In an effort to appease, the always-late person over commits. "Sure, I can be there at 1:15 [if I'm super-lucky in traffic and leave the previous meeting early]."

Some -- not all -- grow out of this.

scrubbyfish

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2015, 01:30:37 PM »
In some cases, an effort to "keep everyone happy", but specifically as though they could not tolerate anyone else's disappointment or anger.

These people are sometimes in the same category as those who are always late. In an effort to appease, the always-late person over commits. "Sure, I can be there at 1:15 [if I'm super-lucky in traffic and leave the previous meeting early]."

Some -- not all -- grow out of this.

Yes! That same thing happened with the same people!

You guys are smart. You know things I haven't known. But I'm starting to know them, in the same way I've learned about money since joining. And my money is kinda rockin' it now. I'm starting to feel a similar "quickening" sensation in this topic that I did in my "one investing question at a time" thread. Perhaps same results will come.

MBot

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2015, 02:07:45 PM »
Honesty is really, really important to both of us. In a sense it makes us uncomfortable with others sometimes.

We don't mask our IP addresses to get the American instead of Canadian Netflix, for example; or fail to correct errors in our favour on bills.

Or if I ask my husband how a dress makes me look, he'll tell me exactly whether it's flattering or not. I truly appreciate his honest feedback and I try to do the same.

I think that only works in a relationship that's also full of relentless compliments and honour and unconditional love, but it works.

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2015, 03:14:14 PM »
Honesty is very important to me in a relationship. So what I look for in an SO is that they never say "the right thing". Basically the guy who doesn't say anything that ladies want to hear, isn't "charming", says weird things or random things, doesn't care what other people think of him - that's the guy I want. Those are the signs of honesty to me. They are just - this is how I am - take me or leave me.

I try to be honest to the point that I'll say nothing rather than something untrue, even if it's just a social nicety, like commenting on a haircut or something. And I don't ask "How are you?" if I don't actually want to know.

Admittedly I'm hypocritical in the area of honesty as I was dishonest with my husband for the last two years of our marriage. So yeah, big lies of omission or lies out of fearing the consequences - yep, I'm guilty of that. I decided to live more authentically, and tell the truth, so we're separated. But at least now I'm not lying to him or anyone else anymore, and am living much more ethically.

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2015, 04:13:12 PM »
I think it just means your values were out of synch with your former partners. There are honest people just as there are liars. Everyone has a different comfort level.

Since you mentioned you were wondering about these things, I thought I would recommend a book. It's called Boundaries in Dating. I found a copy at the library. It's from a traditional Christian perspective but even if you're not (as I'm not) I found it very helpful and thought provoking. Honesty is just one of the values it discusses and asks you to think about.

I thought this was also a very helpful exercise for accessing dating partners:
http://www.eharmony.com/dating-advice/using-eharmony/top-10-must-haves-and-cant-stands/#.VR8QVfnF8us



southern granny

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2015, 04:22:17 PM »
I would not date a dishonest man.  Twice we have found billfolds that contained credit cards and cash and both times we returned them intact.  If we are given too much change, we give it back.  Once the cashier almost cried because she said she would have been fired if her register was short.  If a man will cheat someone else he will cheat (or cheat on) you.  There are honest men out there.  Keep looking.

madgeylou

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2015, 05:21:18 PM »
My husband is more honest than me. I was kind of a dirt bag for a lot of years -- I was good to my friends, but felt free to ignore bills and shoplift and run up credit cards I couldn't pay.

I don't beat myself up too much about it, because I didn't have anyone in my day-to-day life as a kid who taught me to be honest. My dad lied a lot, made a lot of promises he couldn't keep, and though I knew that he was only doing it to make people happy and get approval, it still sucked. But it took me a while to figure out a different way to be.

Once I did figure it out, though, the problem was that I kept dating people who had my old set of values -- rock'n'roll, partying, being loud and wild and crazy. After a while, though, I saw what was happening, and it was like my eyes were opened because I started to see dudes in a totally different way. I started to be attracted to different things, like how my lovely friend of ten years was not only quietly handsome but also honest and trustworthy and loyal in a way I had never really seen anyone be before. I found myself falling for him for a lot of reasons but most especially those.

I admire these traits in him, and being around him inspires me to live out of the better part of my own character. I've learned a lot seeing how he (and his parents) show up in the world -- with forethought and dedication and generosity and good humor -- and I hope some of it rubs off on me!

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2015, 06:04:08 PM »
I don't beat myself up too much about it...

AWESOME! Because we shouldn't beat ourselves up for what we did before today. We're allowed to screw up first, and we're allowed to ultimately align ourselves with our values/true self.

I've only recently come to understand, though, that I need to be dating the person who has already done the latter -aligned himself- and is not still in the former phase.

One counsellor I saw, in the last relationship, said, "People don't change." I was horrified. Yes, they do! I have! Loads of friends have! miss madge has! I think a person who thinks people don't change shouldn't be counsellors. (And I went to a different one after that session.)

scrubbyfish

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2015, 06:11:02 PM »
Since you mentioned you were wondering about these things, I thought I would recommend a book. It's called Boundaries in Dating. I found a copy at the library. It's from a traditional Christian perspective but even if you're not (as I'm not) I found it very helpful and thought provoking. Honesty is just one of the values it discusses and asks you to think about.

Thank you! I do get a lot out of books, and am a-okay reading things from various perspectives. I will request this one from the library.

I did try to read a different book-on-dating-from-a-traditional-Christian-perspective the other day. It was making a case against living together, but all the premises seemed false, so all credibility was lost for me and I let it go. But any perspective is fine if it gives me truthful and relevant tips, yes!

I have to admit, when I think about changing this up in my life, I feel sad. I feel sad because it would mean I couldn't date the people I've dated, all of whom I really, really enjoyed. Isn't that something...

There's one awesome, single, honest, etc, guy where I live, who I think is wonderful. The catch? He is gay and I'm not a guy, dammit.

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2015, 06:20:41 PM »
One counsellor I saw, in the last relationship, said, "People don't change." I was horrified. Yes, they do! I have! Loads of friends have!
I can see her point. People cannot be expected to change in the way that you want them to change. Everyone changes with each new experience or relationship they have. But people don't necessarily change in ways they want to change, or that others want them to change.

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2015, 06:48:26 PM »
It took me a long time to be honest with my husband about the little stuff. Growing up, lying was a survival skill and it was a hard lesson to learn that I could be truthful (usually about my feelings) without negative consequences. As far as the big stuff, neither he nor I manage dishonesty well. I could forgive physical infidelity much more easily than I could financial infidelity. Thankfully, we've created an atmosphere in our relationship where it is safe to tell the truth.

On the other hand, some in my family of origin are still not safe people to be truthful with, and when necessary I will lie with a straight face and sleep peacefully at night having done so to avoid their disruptive, harmful influence in my life. Thankfully, we have very low contact, so I do not need to do so often. But I will protect my little nuclear family at all costs and feel no moral delimma if I lie to do so.

scrubbyfish

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2015, 08:04:11 PM »
I can see her point. People cannot be expected to change in the way that you want them to change. Everyone changes with each new experience or relationship they have. But people don't necessarily change in ways they want to change, or that others want them to change.

Agreed.

So it would have been accurate for the counsellor to say, "People don't change (just) because someone wants them to. People change because factors within themselves -in response to self reflection, a jarring awake by a circumstance, etc- trigger them to." But that's not what he said. He only said, "People don't change." And then made a whole case for that idea. He seemed depressed to me. I had a strong sense he was going through a terrible break up or something (or perhaps just job burnout).

scrubbyfish

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2015, 08:08:22 PM »
...feel no moral delimma if I lie to do so.

In such a case, I wouldn't either. For me, some such circumstances would fall under "lying to protect health or life."

I've also become aware (via experience, because yes, one lying person also had physical affairs) that I care far less about sexual infidelity than I do about lying. That was a surprise to me in the last few years.

mozar

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2015, 08:37:22 PM »
I'm so glad you enjoyed the video! I also enjoyed the book "Love Factually"
There is some science about why not to live together, but that's only if you are looking for marriage. This book is not as feminist as I would like but it's leaps and bounds better than most dating advice out there.

deborah

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2015, 08:40:11 PM »
He only said, "People don't change." And then made a whole case for that idea. He seemed depressed to me. I had a strong sense he was going through a terrible break up or something (or perhaps just job burnout).
Sounds like he wasn't the right counsellor for anyone!

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Re: honesty & money in relationship
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2015, 05:15:51 AM »
I've only recently come to understand, though, that I need to be dating the person who has already done the latter -aligned himself- and is not still in the former phase.

that is a such a good and valuable thing to explicitly know and verbalize!

this is something i really love about how you show up here scrubbyfish -- you are very good about being extremely clear about topics that many people just make assumptions about.

One counsellor I saw, in the last relationship, said, "People don't change." I was horrified. Yes, they do! I have! Loads of friends have! miss madge has! I think a person who thinks people don't change shouldn't be counsellors. (And I went to a different one after that session.)

wow, right? cause isn't the point of counseling to get support in moving to the next level? doesn't that mean changing?

with that kind of mindset in that kind of job, no wonder he was depressed! imagine, listening to people's problems all day every day and having no faith that any of them will ever transform out of them!