Author Topic: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?  (Read 1028 times)

Villanelle

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Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« on: March 28, 2025, 10:47:47 AM »
I'd like to have solar panels in our home.  However, we are surrounded by very tall trees, though your large-ish yard is mostly clear.  Does a solar company do some sort of evaluation of one's specific home/lot/roof to see if you get enough sun to make it worthwhile, and if they do, can I trust that evaluation even though it comes from someone trying to sell me something?  (I'm at about 39*N latitude.)

Even if we don't get enough to cover our full use, it would be nice to be at least partially solar and have the system as a back-up if power goes out. (I'd likely do a battery.)  And to help push our energy usage more to off-peak hours, too.  But I don't want to buy an expensive system if it doesn't get enough sun to generate much energy.

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2025, 01:44:54 PM »
Does a solar company do some sort of evaluation of one's specific home/lot/roof to see if you get enough sun to make it worthwhile

This is certainly possible (and not terribly difficult) with some basic solar-calculator software, and good companies will do this for you.  At a minimum, they should be calculating the average solar irradiance for your specific neighborhood for each month, and then incorporating your roof exposure (compass direction), roof pitch, and any obstructions (e.g. trees, other buildings). Software makes this easy now, so there's little excuse for not doing it.

A good company should show you exactly how many kwH of electricity you can expect for each calendar month for your specific roof for a given sized array.

How to tell if they are actually doing said calculations vs just pulling some average number out of ChatGPT?  Here's a few softball questions to ask:  If I removed [Specific Tree] - how much more electricity will I generate in December?  In June?  What is the calculated monthly energy (e.g. in kWh/m2).  If they can't give you specific values, or if their estimates on how removing a tree in Dec vs June are linear ("it goes up by 10%!") They don't know what they are doing.  Ask them to show you their calulations/software.

I can I trust that evaluation even though it comes from someone trying to sell me something? 
Great, you are aware they are salesmen trying to sell you something!  Surprising how many people don't get that dynamic. First, you should get multiple quotes from different companies, and ask each for the solar energy on *your* roof on a monthly basis.  They should be similar, though not exact (it is modeling afterall, and inputs matter). If they diverge, find out why.
Second, get references, and ask them how closely their installer's model matched their actual solar output. Solar installs come with fun little features to track energy over time, and people **really** notice when their system underperforms. Just ask "hey, how many kWh did [Solar Company] say you'd likely generate, and how much did you actually generate last year? Over the course of 1 year, estimates should be within 15%.

Finally, ask the installer if they provide a "Solar Guarantee" for performance.  Some will promise a token amount (usually the rate your utility pays) for underperformance. Usually it's a percentage, starting around 90% and dropping to 80% after a few years.  Warning, it sounds better than it actually is, as your system has to underperform substantially and then you're generally entitled to the difference, which may only be a few dollars a month *if* you bother to file a claim.


I'm at about 39*N latitude.
Your latitude matters far less than your heating/cooling needs, especially at 39ºN.  Even more important is whether you have net metering.  You will generate a lot of electricity in April - July, and very little in November - February.  Your roof angle, exposure and surrounding trees matter less during the summer because of the high sun angle.  It matters a great deal for winter-time production. I'm a bit further northan than you, but I frequently break 30 kWh on sunny days in June but struggle to hit 10 kWh in January on even the best days (3-4 is more the norm). I simply can't heat my house in the winter on solar and rely on net metering to keep my bill at $0 (plus grid-tie fees). 

it would be nice to be at least partially solar and have the system as a back-up if power goes out. (I'd likely do a battery.)  And to help push our energy usage more to off-peak hours, too.
Be aware that most solar installations cannot power your home during a blackout unless there is a battery backup. It's a safety feature so that PV systems aren't sending power back into the grid, potentially injuring line workers or arcing through downed power lines.  Further, your battery configuration will determine whether you draw from the battery vs the grid at night (or during rainy/cloudy days with high usage).  Some configurations will not allow you to recharge your batteries from the solar panels if the grid is down, which means your battery backup may only a night or so.

But I don't want to buy an expensive system if it doesn't get enough sun to generate much energy.
What qualifies as "expensive" is quite subjective.  Almost always, air sealing and improving insulation in your home will have a much bigger impact on energy use than installing solar, until you've done all the easy bits. There's also a value on having an automatic backup power system (in the case of a solar-tied battery) which works silently, even if you are not home, and the value of renewable energy. Those factors might be worth $20k to you, or $20.  On the other side - there's a lot of embodied energy in battery backup systems, so batteries take you in the opposite direction if your goal is to get near carbon neutral.

If your main goal is just to have emergency backup power for occasional (few times/year) blackouts, a gas generator with transfer switch is the most economical choice if you are confident you'll be home during the outage.  An auto-on, whole-house generator can be installed for about the same as what a battery backup will cost, and provide you with way more power (albeit by burning a lot of fuel inefficiently).

Villanelle

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2025, 02:39:59 PM »
Does a solar company do some sort of evaluation of one's specific home/lot/roof to see if you get enough sun to make it worthwhile

This is certainly possible (and not terribly difficult) with some basic solar-calculator software, and good companies will do this for you.  At a minimum, they should be calculating the average solar irradiance for your specific neighborhood for each month, and then incorporating your roof exposure (compass direction), roof pitch, and any obstructions (e.g. trees, other buildings). Software makes this easy now, so there's little excuse for not doing it.

A good company should show you exactly how many kwH of electricity you can expect for each calendar month for your specific roof for a given sized array.

How to tell if they are actually doing said calculations vs just pulling some average number out of ChatGPT?  Here's a few softball questions to ask:  If I removed [Specific Tree] - how much more electricity will I generate in December?  In June?  What is the calculated monthly energy (e.g. in kWh/m2).  If they can't give you specific values, or if their estimates on how removing a tree in Dec vs June are linear ("it goes up by 10%!") They don't know what they are doing.  Ask them to show you their calulations/software.

I can I trust that evaluation even though it comes from someone trying to sell me something? 
Great, you are aware they are salesmen trying to sell you something!  Surprising how many people don't get that dynamic. First, you should get multiple quotes from different companies, and ask each for the solar energy on *your* roof on a monthly basis.  They should be similar, though not exact (it is modeling afterall, and inputs matter). If they diverge, find out why.
Second, get references, and ask them how closely their installer's model matched their actual solar output. Solar installs come with fun little features to track energy over time, and people **really** notice when their system underperforms. Just ask "hey, how many kWh did [Solar Company] say you'd likely generate, and how much did you actually generate last year? Over the course of 1 year, estimates should be within 15%.

Finally, ask the installer if they provide a "Solar Guarantee" for performance.  Some will promise a token amount (usually the rate your utility pays) for underperformance. Usually it's a percentage, starting around 90% and dropping to 80% after a few years.  Warning, it sounds better than it actually is, as your system has to underperform substantially and then you're generally entitled to the difference, which may only be a few dollars a month *if* you bother to file a claim.


I'm at about 39*N latitude.
Your latitude matters far less than your heating/cooling needs, especially at 39ºN.  Even more important is whether you have net metering.  You will generate a lot of electricity in April - July, and very little in November - February.  Your roof angle, exposure and surrounding trees matter less during the summer because of the high sun angle.  It matters a great deal for winter-time production. I'm a bit further northan than you, but I frequently break 30 kWh on sunny days in June but struggle to hit 10 kWh in January on even the best days (3-4 is more the norm). I simply can't heat my house in the winter on solar and rely on net metering to keep my bill at $0 (plus grid-tie fees). 

it would be nice to be at least partially solar and have the system as a back-up if power goes out. (I'd likely do a battery.)  And to help push our energy usage more to off-peak hours, too.
Be aware that most solar installations cannot power your home during a blackout unless there is a battery backup. It's a safety feature so that PV systems aren't sending power back into the grid, potentially injuring line workers or arcing through downed power lines.  Further, your battery configuration will determine whether you draw from the battery vs the grid at night (or during rainy/cloudy days with high usage).  Some configurations will not allow you to recharge your batteries from the solar panels if the grid is down, which means your battery backup may only a night or so.

But I don't want to buy an expensive system if it doesn't get enough sun to generate much energy.
What qualifies as "expensive" is quite subjective.  Almost always, air sealing and improving insulation in your home will have a much bigger impact on energy use than installing solar, until you've done all the easy bits. There's also a value on having an automatic backup power system (in the case of a solar-tied battery) which works silently, even if you are not home, and the value of renewable energy. Those factors might be worth $20k to you, or $20.  On the other side - there's a lot of embodied energy in battery backup systems, so batteries take you in the opposite direction if your goal is to get near carbon neutral.

If your main goal is just to have emergency backup power for occasional (few times/year) blackouts, a gas generator with transfer switch is the most economical choice if you are confident you'll be home during the outage.  An auto-on, whole-house generator can be installed for about the same as what a battery backup will cost, and provide you with way more power (albeit by burning a lot of fuel inefficiently).

Wow.  Thanks for the detailed response!  Lots for me to think about.  I especially love the specific questions to ask to test their calculations methods.

Our heat is powered by heating oil, so offsetting winter heat use isn't a major concern.  Much of our desire for a system is based on environmental concerns and also the potential for rate increases.  Some is for the back-up system.  I suspect we wouldn't break even for years, and we may not be in this house that long. I talked briefly with our RE agent who said that solar might increase our property value slightly, but surely not by as much as we spent on it.  So we could recoup some costs if/when we sell.

I didn't realize that some battery systems won't let you charge the battery during an outage!  That's definitely something I'll keep in mind. 

I know my state does net metering, but haven't dug into the specific, since I know policies vary.  We have TOU rates (I believe we have peak, off-peak, and... medium? lol) and I know some net metering systems play better with that than others.

We moved into this house in mid-September so we haven't experienced summer, but because of the trees, we actually feel like we get more light now, when they have no leaves, than we did when they were still lush but it was sunnier.  That may or may not matter to the solar question though, as that's mostly light coming in the windows (and skylights) than light on the roof, which is surely less affected by the trees/leaves since there are no branches directly overhead or for a small permiter.

We also have to decide where to draw the line on installing solar an an older roof, and whether it would make more sense to wait on solar, replace the roof slightly earlier than we otherwise would, or proceed anyway.

We also have a 500g propane tank that powers the gas fireplace, and we've considered getting a generator that runs off that as back-up.  That's surely cheaper than solar, but only covers the power-outage issue. 

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2025, 03:45:41 PM »
That was an awesome response.  I looked into solar panels for myself in a similar situation of lots of large trees giving my house great shade.  We decided not to put them on our house but when we build a garage and cut down a few more we will likely put them on the detached garage.  As an electrical contractor the way I went, and recommend for those that are frugal is a generlink.  A product that you can plug a generator in and power up your house.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2025, 03:28:40 AM »
You may be able to simply enter your address with google's "project sunroof" to get an idea of how shaded your roof is.

https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/

If your address is supported, it will give you an image like this with estimates for acceptable area for panel installation, total hrs of sunlight per year, and potential savings over a period of time


Villanelle

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2025, 01:14:23 PM »
You may be able to simply enter your address with google's "project sunroof" to get an idea of how shaded your roof is.

https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/

If your address is supported, it will give you an image like this with estimates for acceptable area for panel installation, total hrs of sunlight per year, and potential savings over a period of time



Very cool site.  My address came up, but it was just a very undetailed satellite photo (same as I see on google earth), without any of the heat/solar detail of your, or showing where on the roof we could put useful panels. The photo is also clearly taken in winter when the trees have no leaves, which might also matter.  But it says:

1,031 hours of usable sunlight per year
Based on day-to-day analysis of weather patterns

1,226 sq feet available for solar panels
Based on 3D modeling of your roof and nearby trees.

I have no idea of 1031 hours of usable sunlight per year is... good?  Thats only about 20 hours per week (average) which doesn't seem like very much.  So that's not promising, but I also feel like the analysis doesn't seem granular enough to get solid details for my house.   


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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2025, 02:28:11 PM »
and we may not be in this house that long.

I would just stop thinking about it based on this alone.

Villanelle

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2025, 03:21:27 PM »
and we may not be in this house that long.

I would just stop thinking about it based on this alone.

the thing is that we really don't know.  We estimate DH will work for 5-8 more years (+/-) and we have no idea where were will go after that, so we very well could end up staying here.  Or not. 

uniwelder

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2025, 03:31:09 PM »
Sorry for the brief post. We’re currently traveling, but I wanted to mention the Solar Pathfinder tool. To calculate shading on your roof, the sales person should take this bubble dome device and plop it level at the suspect areas where panels might get shaded. They’ll take a photo, which will show a month by month projection of the number of hours of light that spot will receive. Link here— https://www.solarpathfinder.com/PF?id=FU7iLeR4

My house has tall trees behind it and I borrowed my friend’s pathfinder to check out my own roof. He’s a solar installation contractor.

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2025, 03:53:06 PM »
You may be able to simply enter your address with google's "project sunroof" to get an idea of how shaded your roof is.

https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/

Very cool site.  My address came up, but it was just a very undetailed satellite photo (same as I see on google earth), without any of the heat/solar detail of your, or showing where on the roof we could put useful panels. The photo is also clearly taken in winter when the trees have no leaves, which might also matter.  But it says:

1,031 hours of usable sunlight per year
Based on day-to-day analysis of weather patterns

1,226 sq feet available for solar panels
Based on 3D modeling of your roof and nearby trees.

I have no idea of 1031 hours of usable sunlight per year is... good?  Thats only about 20 hours per week (average) which doesn't seem like very much.  So that's not promising, but I also feel like the analysis doesn't seem granular enough to get solid details for my house.

For our house in southern Arizona it's 2,100 hours. Quick spot-checking I'm seeing 1500 in the northeast and 1200 in the northwest. 1,000 hours seems pretty low to me. Are you in Alaska or something?

Villanelle

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2025, 06:07:22 PM »
You may be able to simply enter your address with google's "project sunroof" to get an idea of how shaded your roof is.

https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/

Very cool site.  My address came up, but it was just a very undetailed satellite photo (same as I see on google earth), without any of the heat/solar detail of your, or showing where on the roof we could put useful panels. The photo is also clearly taken in winter when the trees have no leaves, which might also matter.  But it says:

1,031 hours of usable sunlight per year
Based on day-to-day analysis of weather patterns

1,226 sq feet available for solar panels
Based on 3D modeling of your roof and nearby trees.

I have no idea of 1031 hours of usable sunlight per year is... good?  Thats only about 20 hours per week (average) which doesn't seem like very much.  So that's not promising, but I also feel like the analysis doesn't seem granular enough to get solid details for my house.

For our house in southern Arizona it's 2,100 hours. Quick spot-checking I'm seeing 1500 in the northeast and 1200 in the northwest. 1,000 hours seems pretty low to me. Are you in Alaska or something?

Nope, I'm in the DC region.
 I checked my sister's address in SoCal.  She has solar and they cover their use plus sell back, and her house said something like 1200 hours, so I think there's something off.
 
 It could be the trees at my house, but that doesn't explain hers.

uniwelder

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2025, 11:37:31 PM »
You may be able to simply enter your address with google's "project sunroof" to get an idea of how shaded your roof is.

https://sunroof.withgoogle.com/

Very cool site.  My address came up, but it was just a very undetailed satellite photo (same as I see on google earth), without any of the heat/solar detail of your, or showing where on the roof we could put useful panels. The photo is also clearly taken in winter when the trees have no leaves, which might also matter.  But it says:

1,031 hours of usable sunlight per year
Based on day-to-day analysis of weather patterns

1,226 sq feet available for solar panels
Based on 3D modeling of your roof and nearby trees.

I have no idea of 1031 hours of usable sunlight per year is... good?  Thats only about 20 hours per week (average) which doesn't seem like very much.  So that's not promising, but I also feel like the analysis doesn't seem granular enough to get solid details for my house.

For our house in southern Arizona it's 2,100 hours. Quick spot-checking I'm seeing 1500 in the northeast and 1200 in the northwest. 1,000 hours seems pretty low to me. Are you in Alaska or something?

Nope, I'm in the DC region.
 I checked my sister's address in SoCal.  She has solar and they cover their use plus sell back, and her house said something like 1200 hours, so I think there's something off.
 
 It could be the trees at my house, but that doesn't explain hers.

The number of hours is calculated as ‘peak’, so that’s why it seems off. It should be about 4 per day. 1 peak hour is direct noon sun, so the 3 hours from 9-12 are like 1 peak hour.

Here’s a really good website for calculating your returns with panels, as well as output— https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/

uniwelder

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2025, 09:42:58 AM »
Villanelle-- Any thoughts on moving forward?  I'm back from vacation.  I'm surprised everyone waited for my return before sending more replies ;)

1) The Google Sunroof site gives me the same amount of sun hours.  I think it also assumes no shade because the photo used is during the peak of summer.  Not really worth much in my opinion.  It also suggest more panels than I can fit without going into very shady roof areas. 

Can you upload a couple photos of your roof at various times of the day?  9 AM, noon, and 3 PM, during a clear sky?  There are probably enough leaves on the trees by now to get an idea what kind of shading you'd experience, which will decrease as spring progresses.  Even if you have shade in the winter, it's also not a high productivity time of the year.  April onwards is what you need to be concerned with.  It will also depend on whether a string inverter or micro-inverters are used for your system.

2) Putting panels on an old roof is iffy.  It'll cost a few thousand to remove and reinstall when the roof replacement comes due.  If that happens to coincide with when you sell the house, then things can become very uncertain due to cost/benefit analysis.  How old is it now and how many years more do you think you can get out of it?

3) Which state of the DC region are you?  I'm in Virginia, but perhaps you're in Maryland.  I think Maryland has incentives, whereas Virginia is rather unfriendly toward solar.

4) Did you understand the Solar Pathfinder tool and peak sun hours described in my prior responses?

5) Adding batteries can be quite expensive without much return.  Since you mentioned varying electric rates depending on time of use, then perhaps it can be worthwhile, but typically not.

6) There are local solar companies with long histories.  I have no idea if they're in your area, but where I live, there are two that have been in business for 25 and 17 years.  They're happy to install systems, but don't really have to sell themselves much to get business and their sales people (estimators) don't get paid on commission.  The unfavorable stories I hear about salesman isn't like what exists in my locality, so there's hope that you can find a similar contractor where you are.

Villanelle

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2025, 12:01:36 PM »
Villanelle-- Any thoughts on moving forward?  I'm back from vacation.  I'm surprised everyone waited for my return before sending more replies ;)

1) The Google Sunroof site gives me the same amount of sun hours.  I think it also assumes no shade because the photo used is during the peak of summer.  Not really worth much in my opinion.  It also suggest more panels than I can fit without going into very shady roof areas. 

Can you upload a couple photos of your roof at various times of the day?  9 AM, noon, and 3 PM, during a clear sky?  There are probably enough leaves on the trees by now to get an idea what kind of shading you'd experience, which will decrease as spring progresses.  Even if you have shade in the winter, it's also not a high productivity time of the year.  April onwards is what you need to be concerned with.  It will also depend on whether a string inverter or micro-inverters are used for your system.

2) Putting panels on an old roof is iffy.  It'll cost a few thousand to remove and reinstall when the roof replacement comes due.  If that happens to coincide with when you sell the house, then things can become very uncertain due to cost/benefit analysis.  How old is it now and how many years more do you think you can get out of it?

3) Which state of the DC region are you?  I'm in Virginia, but perhaps you're in Maryland.  I think Maryland has incentives, whereas Virginia is rather unfriendly toward solar.

4) Did you understand the Solar Pathfinder tool and peak sun hours described in my prior responses?

5) Adding batteries can be quite expensive without much return.  Since you mentioned varying electric rates depending on time of use, then perhaps it can be worthwhile, but typically not.

6) There are local solar companies with long histories.  I have no idea if they're in your area, but where I live, there are two that have been in business for 25 and 17 years.  They're happy to install systems, but don't really have to sell themselves much to get business and their sales people (estimators) don't get paid on commission.  The unfavorable stories I hear about salesman isn't like what exists in my locality, so there's hope that you can find a similar contractor where you are.

We are in MD.  Most of our trees are either stlll bare or just starting to show little green blooms, so it will probably be another couple weeks before we have full leaf cover. 

I haven't dug into the Solar Pathfinder thing. The peak sun hours and how that calculates does make sense--somewhat similar to how our heating oil compay calculated "degree days" when figuring out when to come refill our tank.  We discovered a small roof leak (a tiny wet spot on the ceiling) and want to address that before we consider anything else.  I can't recall how old our roof is, but I recall mentally checking the "definitely not new-ish" box in my head. 

For the batteries, if/when we proceed, i guess it would make sense to price out a generator tied to our in-ground propane supply vs battery storage.  That doesn't allow us to shift usage to off-peak hours, but it does cover the "emergency power" aspect that are part of what make batteries appealing. 

We also get a letter last week saying the our power company in MD is doing a program where they group buyers together, then companies bid to get everyone's business.  I need to look more into this, especially to see at what point we are committing vs. the point where the company is chosen and the prices are listed. 

We do have a LOT of roof.  Our house is obnoxiously large, and single-story, meaning there's a lot of roof real estate to use.  So space for sufficient panels is one thing I'm not worried about, though *unshaded* space is a different animal as is the direction the panels would face. 

What I probably need to do is try to find one of the companies like you mention in #6, and have them come out and look at our home and talk us through all of this. 

You've been super helpful so far!  Thank you!!!! 

uniwelder

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2025, 08:56:51 PM »
I'm getting concerned about solar at my own house, fears of 1) federal tax credit being revoked after this year, as well as, 2) Virginia drastically reducing net metering.  I took a look back at the Solar Pathfinder pics I had taken in Oct 2021 to calculate exactly how much shade there is at various points on my roof.  Overall, I only get about 55% of the potential annual energy from panels, maybe more since it could probably generate electricity in the winter through the filtered shade of the bare trees.  In the winter, it would be completely shaded, and in summer, I would get up to 85%.

This is based on the attached pic showing the shaded areas of the Pathfinder tool.  You look at each month and add up the numbers across the arc that are unshaded.  That's the percentage of sun energy for that month.  For example, in September, there would be 6+6+7+7+7+3+3+6+5 = 50%.  From the PVwatts website, it shows month by month how much electricity can be generated, so I reduce it by whatever percentage of shade is appropriate.

Even with all these trees, solar is still worthwhile.  I've been pricing panels, micro-inverters, racking, wiring, etc, and can get a functional system for $0.70/watt used or $0.65/watt new (after taking 30% credit).  It's sad that I can install a completely new system with warranty for less than what anyone is willing to sell used components for, but that's the state of the market.  I'm looking at a break even timeline of about 5 years to recoup my cost.  My wife gave permission to prioritize this project over others, so hopefully something will be going on my roof in the next months. 

Villanelle-- How are you doing with your solar exploration?  Any updates?  How's the roof leak?

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2025, 07:50:26 AM »
That is a super cool way of measuring solar potential!

For anyone wondering--zoom in on the object in the second picture.  I almost moved on to the next post without actually checking it out, thinking you forgot to attach a graph or something.

Villanelle

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Re: Home Solar Efficacy Evaluation?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2025, 02:53:52 PM »
That really is a cool tool.

We've done nothing.  Life has been a minefield of chaos lately, with a dead fridge.  (The house we bought has a sub-zero fridge and separate freezer.  These fuckers are crazy expensive to repair!)  And a sick dog.  Thankfully, the roof has shown no additional leaks either on the ceiling or in the attic, so we've felt okay postponing. 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!