How to find a job with 40 hour a week schedule

[SpendyMcSpend]

I started my new job a couple of months ago and they had done the old bait and switch, in which they said in interviews and to the recruiter that my hours would be 9:30-5:30-6 but in reality we get emailed at all hours with expectation of responses soon after.  For example, one of my "people" emails me at 1:30am my time cause he's in Asia and expects something done by morning my time.  I have been going about my business and answering when I am actually in the office (say 9:30am like they told me which is when everyone physically arrives) but I'm afraid that eventually I will get hit with a "why is this not done" from one of the many people I have to answer to.  Not to mention that to actually keep up with the work you would probably have to stay late/work from home in the evenings.

I now do not look at my phone after 7pm (even though it's somewhat compulsive) and not till I am almost into the office in the morning.  I also don't stay late.  However, I know this is not sustainable and I also can't take lunch.  I had a dentist appointment today that I missed bc I had so much pending work.  I am also very efficient so I know it's not me it's jut that there's piles of emails and work to do for all of us.

I will stay for the time I have to for it not to look "bad" on my resume and I know we are having a title change soon that will give me more money in the market place.  My salary is really good.

So, I guess my question is, if the employer says one thing in the interviews and turns out the job is another, how can I be sure the NEXT job will be what they say? I just plain do not want to work any hours like this, or be expected to respond and be on call.  I want to work 9-6 MAXIMUM and take an hour lunch.  I am upset they bait and switched me.

[Hotstreak]

You just need to ask them.  So, when you ask about hours and they say 930-6, you should ask "is there any expectation to be available for email or phone calls outside of those hours?"  Ask what kind of hours people in this position realistically work per week, what the workload looks like, etc.  You can't stop them from lying to you, but most won't lie if you ask detailed questions.  Your issue is that you only asked what hours to "work" which leaves "work" up to interpretation.  They might not consider responding to a few emails "work" in the same way you do.

[Debts_of_Despair]

Govt workers are often part of a union with clearly defined working hours.

[CanuckExpat]

Become a contract worker. When they have to pay you for every hour you work, it seems there is less incentive to spring stuff on you :)

[sokoloff]

If an email comes in overnight from a timezone you have some work hours overlap with, it seems reasonable to try to reply that during the work hours that overlap. This can buy you an extra "cycle" per solar day. If it comes from India (with no timezone overlap with continental US), then I'd just make sure you don't let it go without a reply during your day, but whether that's 9 AM or 3 PM has relatively little bearing on the cycle time.

I also think you're self-imposing some of the pressure you feel. I'd wait to be challenged on my work habits before assuming yours are outside the bounds of acceptable to your boss. (I'm a boss and I have team members with wildly different working styles. I try to accommodate them all, rather than force everyone into how/when I like to work.)

As for skipping lunch and dentist appointments, I too went down that road. It's just not worth it. Even when things seem like everything is urgent and you're hopelessly behind, for the most part one hour here and there isn't going to make or break the company or your performance review.

All that said, I'm pretty much a workaholic. I love my job and don't have any kind of hard boundaries between work and home. Once the kids are in bed, I'm likely to put in a couple more hours of puttering around, half work, half interesting tech things (that are arguably work-adjacent, but are driven by my interest, not company demands). I'll regularly have work-related video or phone calls with my boss on a Saturday and a Sunday of a given weekend when there's a deadline of sorts for our LT. I don't mind it, even kind of like it sometimes, but I don't turn around and press that expectation onto my team.

If I had someone in your situation who wanted to watch the clock like a hawk, I'd have a place for you provided you did good work when you were working, but you also probably wouldn't have the same career trajectory as someone equally talented and hard-working per hour, but who put in 1.5 times the hours you did. That's just a reality of the consequences of choosing a different point on the work-life balance spectrum. It sounds like you're OK with and prefer that, but don't be surprised when someone else who out-hustles and out-works you ends up having a steeper career path than you.

[SpendyMcSpend]

It's not necessarily my boss it's the *partners* who email back and forth.  I report to my boss but we answer to all these other people.  It's also not my boss but my peers who are training me who will say "oh did you see that email from so and so in Hong Kong?" He likes to have a response when he wakes up.   That sort of thing.  So say Hong Kong.  He worked from 8:30am to 7pm his time, which is 8:30pm to 7am my time.  No overlap.

[SpendyMcSpend]

I also find that quite bothersome that someone who is willing to put in weekends and long hours would have a steeper trajectory as that definitely discriminates against people who have home lives with children, caretaking elderly relatives or other interests.  Promotions should be about your merit and not whether you take a call at 9am on a Saturday. 

[sokoloff]

It's not necessarily my boss it's the *partners* who email back and forth.  I report to my boss but we answer to all these other people.  It's also not my boss but my peers who are training me who will say "oh did you see that email from so and so in Hong Kong?" He likes to have a response when he wakes up.   That sort of thing.  So say Hong Kong.  He worked from 8:30am to 7pm his time, which is 8:30pm to 7am my time.  No overlap.

Right. He likes to have a response when he wakes up. He is 12 hours offset from you. If he sends you a mail at 1:30AM your time, you have until about 6 PM your time to get him a reply that will be waiting when he wakes up. I've worked cross-timezone for a while (collaborating with global colleagues and traveling myself collaborating with the home office). Getting one good "cycle" in per day is enough; you find ways to compensate generally.

I also find that quite bothersome that someone who is willing to put in weekends and long hours would have a steeper trajectory as that definitely discriminates against people who have home lives with children, caretaking elderly relatives or other interests.  Promotions should be about your merit and not whether you take a call at 9am on a Saturday. 

I understand your point of view. The world pretty much doesn't work that way, though, which is why I mentioned it. If someone else is equally talented as you and is going to outwork you by 50%, that's a form of merit.

[SpendyMcSpend]

It's not necessarily my boss it's the *partners* who email back and forth.  I report to my boss but we answer to all these other people.  It's also not my boss but my peers who are training me who will say "oh did you see that email from so and so in Hong Kong?" He likes to have a response when he wakes up.   That sort of thing.  So say Hong Kong.  He worked from 8:30am to 7pm his time, which is 8:30pm to 7am my time.  No overlap.

Right. He likes to have a response when he wakes up. He is 12 hours offset from you. If he sends you a mail at 1:30AM your time, you have until about 6 PM your time to get him a reply that will be waiting when he wakes up. I've worked cross-timezone for a while (collaborating with global colleagues and traveling myself collaborating with the home office). Getting one good "cycle" in per day is enough; you find ways to compensate generally.

I also find that quite bothersome that someone who is willing to put in weekends and long hours would have a steeper trajectory as that definitely discriminates against people who have home lives with children, caretaking elderly relatives or other interests.  Promotions should be about your merit and not whether you take a call at 9am on a Saturday. 

I understand your point of view. The world pretty much doesn't work that way, though, which is why I mentioned it. If someone else is equally talented as you and is going to outwork you by 50%, that's a form of merit.

No, he would want it within a few hours, so that he can read it/revise it before he leaves work.  So he emails 1:30pm his time (1:30am my time) and wants it by 7pm his time (7am my time).

[SpendyMcSpend]

Or, guy in Asia will email something and sure I could wait a whole cycle, but then I have my "peers" forwarding me the email, and then I have to say to them, yes I can handle my own accounts, this is my 3rd priority after so-and-so.  So the peers want to do it before a cycle has passed.  That has been the expectation before I arrived so I assume I'd have to comply with it.  If I try to do a whole cycle, they will "remind" me because everyone is cc'd on every email at this place (another issue).

[sokoloff]

No, he would want it within a few hours, so that he can read it/revise it before he leaves work.  So he emails 1:30pm his time (1:30am my time) and wants it by 7pm his time (7am my time).

Even as an admitted workaholic, his expectation is simply unrealistic and he can cram it as far as I'm concerned.

Edit to add: what are you supposed to do? Set an alarm for 5:30 AM every day just to check if this random dude in Hong Kong sent an adhoc email that he wants a fully-formed answer to by 7 AM?

If someone in your local management chain wants to back him up on that set of facts, let them. I doubt they will if you're an otherwise hard-working employee.

[SpendyMcSpend]

No, he would want it within a few hours, so that he can read it/revise it before he leaves work.  So he emails 1:30pm his time (1:30am my time) and wants it by 7pm his time (7am my time).

Even as an admitted workaholic, his expectation is simply unrealistic and he can cram it as far as I'm concerned.

Edit to add: what are you supposed to do? Set an alarm for 5:30 AM every day just to check if this random dude in Hong Kong sent an adhoc email that he wants a fully-formed answer to by 7 AM?

If someone in your local management chain wants to back him up on that set of facts, let them. I doubt they will if you're an otherwise hard-working employee.

Thanks, I have to agree with this.  I do enjoy the actual work for the most part, which makes me even more annoyed about the "enabling" culture of this firm.  Yes, I like doing the work on a reasonable schedule (even logging in after hours IF appropriate).  But the problem is our department is creeping in on other departments tasks, and feeling like we have to "oversee" those departments and make sure other things get done.  This is a travesty as we are too overwhelmed and should be focusing on our own primary tasks and doing them well first before creeping onto other groups who have their own processes.  I think that problem is largely the fault of my director, who does not know who should do what, and thinks that we are responsible for all.

[YoungInvestor]

I also find that quite bothersome that someone who is willing to put in weekends and long hours would have a steeper trajectory as that definitely discriminates against people who have home lives with children, caretaking elderly relatives or other interests.  Promotions should be about your merit and not whether you take a call at 9am on a Saturday.

Please define "merit".

In some environments, it means putting aside other obligations to work on your career.

In others, being an advocate of your team with internal or external partners.

In some places, it might be coaching skills.

Merit is a very broad term, which depends a lot on the context.

[frugaliknowit]

In an interview, you can pose the question as "What's the work culture like here" and see what kind of response you get.  If expectations do not become clear, you can try, "Please tell me about work/life balance" at company X.

Ultimately, the best source of information is people who work there or have worked there.  You might try making contacts on Linkedin for that.

[CanuckExpat]

How close are you to saving up between 20 and 30 times your annual expenses? Once you do, you can work 40, 4, or 0 hours a week if you want. The closer you get to that number, the closer you get to not caring about crap :)

[nobody123]

Frankly, you need to set boundaries and clarify the expections of your role with your boss.  You can then accept the role or start looking elsewhere.  Personally, I have a rule that I may look at emails after my office hours and reply, but there is no guarantee I'll do so.  If it's an emergency and someone needs a response NOW then they have to call me.  Turns out, folks are pretty reluctant to wake you up unless there is an actual emergency.  If someone from the other side of the globe needs consistent feedback from someone in the US, your company should staff a third shift to deal with that reality.

[ooeei]

For my current job I asked during the interview what a typical workweek was like here. They said 40 hours, with an occasional extra 5-10 a week, and a very rare extra 20 if it's a big project that has something weird happen. I was up front with them and said I don't mind working extra here and there as needed (and mentioned times I'd done it at my last job), but I don't really want to go somewhere that my workweek is going to creep up over time to being 50-60 hours standard.

If the company is smart, they won't hire you if you make it clear at the beginning that you don't want that kind of job. This place hired me and I'd say there's maybe 2 weeks a year I work over 40 hours.

With that being said, plenty of people here do put in 50-60-80 hours a week, and I'm sure they complain to their friends/family about how rough the company is on them. I know plenty of people like this who impose these crazy schedules on themselves and assume they'll get fired if they don't do it. If you only want to work 40 hours, just work 40 and see what happens. Maybe do an extra hour here and there for projects you know are a huge deal. Until a superior at work has explicitly told you you aren't working enough, I don't think you should worry about it. If a superior does approach you about not working enough, just be genuinely curious about what the expectations are, and mention your interview process and how it went. Again, reiterate that doing it once in awhile is okay, but ask if you're really expected to be checking your email at 1am every night. If you are, or you can tell the person is pissed, start looking for a new job.

The reality is, even companies that only require 40 hours aren't going to stop you from pushing yourself to 50-60+. That guy in Hong Kong isn't going to tell you not to respond to him, because there's no downside to him. There will always be more work, if you take it all personally you'll work yourself to death. As far as I'm concerned if your 40 hours isn't enough to get all of your work done they need to pay you more for extra hours, hire more people, or accept that things will take longer. I literally have enough work to last me for the next 2-3 years if we stopped taking on new projects today, and I still work 40 hours a week. The work will be there tomorrow when you get back, and the more you do the more they'll give you. You have to take some initiative and actually talk to some people rather than making assumptions. You could also have a conversation with your boss about these concerns, depending on how comfortable you are with him.

[MrMoneySaver]

I will stay for the time I have to for it not to look "bad" on my resume

How long would this time be, in your view? I am wrestling with this myself.

[FLBiker]

I also find that quite bothersome that someone who is willing to put in weekends and long hours would have a steeper trajectory as that definitely discriminates against people who have home lives with children, caretaking elderly relatives or other interests.  Promotions should be about your merit and not whether you take a call at 9am on a Saturday.

I have to disagree here.  You're more valuable to an employer if you don't have a work-life balance, so it makes sense to me that they would reward that.  And I say that as someone who 100% has opted for a work-life balance.  And while I've been pretty successful, I've also not gotten (or even applied for) certain positions where maintaining that balance would be impossible.

[PlainsWalker]

I will stay for the time I have to for it not to look "bad" on my resume

How long would this time be, in your view? I am wrestling with this myself.

Serial job hopping can look bad on a resume. If you've generally held jobs for a few years and this is a one off that only lasted a couple of months it could easily be explained as a bad fit in future interviews. The flip side of this is that some hiring managers look at an applicant who has spent a decade+ at one employer as possibly being institutionalized to the point that they may not adapt well to a new work environment. Life's just full of little trade offs.

[SpendyMcSpend]

I have people in SF, NY, London and Asia.

[formerlydivorcedmom]

Everything ooeei said.  Everything.

One thing you'll learn is that just because the team culture is a certain way, it doesn't mean that's the way it has to stay.  Yes, maybe there's a habit that people answer emails all hours of the night....but maybe there's also high turnover or burnout.  Maybe projects are being delayed because people are jumping from one task to another instead of finishing things.

Talk to your boss.  Be specific - "What are the expectations for doing X, Y, and Z?"  Sometimes there will be a general SLA (service-level agreement), and then a VIP SLA (e.g., for this person, we drop everything).  If there isn't an SLA...well, with employees around the world, there SHOULD BE one.  Maybe you can volunteer to talk to your teammates and put a proposal together.  It would help everyone better plan their projects.

Also talk to your boss about your preferred time management style.  Is this acceptable given the team SLAs?

You may find you have nothing to worry about because you've been putting these expectations on yourself.  Your boss may be excited to impose more structure on the group.  Or, you may find they have expectations or a culture that doesn't align with what works for you.  In that case, you'll need to leave - either for another group or another job.

I've been in multiple toxic work environments.  Some I've managed to change the culture.  Some, I sucked it up and worked crazy hours for a specific project/time frame.  Some, I pushed back (at one point, boss and I had a standoff in the middle of the open working environment over whether or not I would be cancelling my Christmas vacation to do a project; I won...and immediately started looking for another job; half my team quit shortly after I did).

I actually felt so burned by my last job that I'm working contract-to-hire right now.  I wanted the "tryout period" of the contract to make sure I wasn't making another mistake with the culture.

[mm1970]

I can sympathize.

I've had jobs where I've worked with folks (or managed them) on 24/7 shifts.
I now work a job where some of my coworkers are in Asia.  So my 4:00 pm is their 8:00 am.

Some of the things that I do, or others do:

1.  Train the people who are off-site to give you more time.  In other words, if they need something by time/date "X", they need to give you "Y" hours/days of advanced notice.  I had to do this years ago when I changed by schedule to work 7 am to 3:30 pm.  I'd inevitably get a coworker looking for test data at 3:15 pm.  I trained him to ask by 1:00 pm.

2.  Figure out which things are MOST important.  Case in point: I work with two people in Asia (different sites) who are on the front lines, so to speak.  Each morning, when I come in, I do an email search for their names - I respond to them ASAP.  No, I do not respond to them at 1 am.

3.  I work late 2 days per week, so I get overlap with the Asia folks - it's only about a 2 hour overlap, but you'd be surprised how helpful that is.

4.  My boss works really late hours because he needs to overlap even more - he has weekend meetings, late night phone calls.  He doesn't roll into the office until 11 am most days.

5.  Some people who have weird hours because of the overseas connection work late and come in late OR take a break in the middle of the day to go to the gym, go surfing, go for a bike ride.  Their overall hours stay reasonable.

6.  They cannot take advantage of you without your permission.  I'm at a job where we've had enough layoffs (and a certain culture), that I literally cannot finish everything that needs to be done.  And I never will.  I absolutely refuse to work 50-60 hours a week in order for it all to happen (plus, I'm too damned old for that). I do what I can get done in a reasonable amount of time.  I prioritize.  But what doesn't get done, doesn't get done.  I know I'm efficient enough that I get a LOT done. 

[Schaefer Light]

I don't think I'd want to work for a company where I had to collaborate closely with people in other countries.  The opportunities for forcing people to work odd hours are just too plentiful in that situation.  I have a hard enough time scheduling conference calls with people in a different time zone in the same country.  The headache of thinking about someone else being on totally different schedule just isn't worth it to me.

[Lanthiriel]

For my current job I asked during the interview what a typical workweek was like here. They said 40 hours, with an occasional extra 5-10 a week, and a very rare extra 20 if it's a big project that has something weird happen. I was up front with them and said I don't mind working extra here and there as needed (and mentioned times I'd done it at my last job), but I don't really want to go somewhere that my workweek is going to creep up over time to being 50-60 hours standard.

If the company is smart, they won't hire you if you make it clear at the beginning that you don't want that kind of job. This place hired me and I'd say there's maybe 2 weeks a year I work over 40 hours.

With that being said, plenty of people here do put in 50-60-80 hours a week, and I'm sure they complain to their friends/family about how rough the company is on them. I know plenty of people like this who impose these crazy schedules on themselves and assume they'll get fired if they don't do it. If you only want to work 40 hours, just work 40 and see what happens. Maybe do an extra hour here and there for projects you know are a huge deal. Until a superior at work has explicitly told you you aren't working enough, I don't think you should worry about it. If a superior does approach you about not working enough, just be genuinely curious about what the expectations are, and mention your interview process and how it went. Again, reiterate that doing it once in awhile is okay, but ask if you're really expected to be checking your email at 1am every night. If you are, or you can tell the person is pissed, start looking for a new job.

The reality is, even companies that only require 40 hours aren't going to stop you from pushing yourself to 50-60+. That guy in Hong Kong isn't going to tell you not to respond to him, because there's no downside to him. There will always be more work, if you take it all personally you'll work yourself to death. As far as I'm concerned if your 40 hours isn't enough to get all of your work done they need to pay you more for extra hours, hire more people, or accept that things will take longer. I literally have enough work to last me for the next 2-3 years if we stopped taking on new projects today, and I still work 40 hours a week. The work will be there tomorrow when you get back, and the more you do the more they'll give you. You have to take some initiative and actually talk to some people rather than making assumptions. You could also have a conversation with your boss about these concerns, depending on how comfortable you are with him.

You're my hero. This has been my approach to my career for about the last 3.5 years, and I'm much happier. So far it hasn't affected my earning capacity. We'll see if that holds true.