Author Topic: Help with a Prenup  (Read 29965 times)

LowER

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2013, 06:51:22 PM »
Imagine paying someone you hate every month for the rest of your life, not until you retire - until you DIE!!!  Now that's mustachian....

Most states don't do permanent alimony anymore - generally it's rehabilitative, reimbursement and/or limited-duration.  I tried to look  up which are still permanent and couldn't find it easily.

Is it mustachian to go back on a commitment?  Imagine relying on someone's promises to take care of you, so you quit your job and give up your career to take care of the kids, spouse and household.  You homeschool/drive kids to events and classes/cook meals and save money/pay the bills, schedule the dr appts, take care of the broken appliance and other admin details for years.   Then you get divorced in your late 50s when your kids are off at college and your spouse thinks 1-2 years of alimony is enough because after all, s/he made the big bucks not you so it's their money.  Never mind you agreed together way back that you would stay home - it's ok to change the rules now at the end.  Now you're at an age where it's 1) hard to get any job (they think you'll be retiring soon, even if age discrimation is illegal, and won't hire you, plus the economy is not great and you have no work exp), and 2) impossible to ever work your way up the career ladder to the position you would have been.  This is why I always advocate people talking through all of the issues, particularly before making big decision like getting married, or one person staying home with kids.

It can go both ways.  Yes, divorce sucks, and I agree that alimony rules can be improved (my state, MA did this in 2011), but it doesn't seem to me that this is the appropriate place to post about swearing off marriage, when the OP isn't asking about that advice.  Instead I suggest you start a new thread.

You highlight many of the reasons why this is such a polarizing subject.  My state still enforces lifetime alimony at the whim of the judge.  The OP should know what may lie ahead in the arena of finances which seems salient to their post asking about prenups.

CommonCents

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2013, 07:57:35 PM »
Imagine paying someone you hate every month for the rest of your life, not until you retire - until you DIE!!!  Now that's mustachian....

Most states don't do permanent alimony anymore - generally it's rehabilitative, reimbursement and/or limited-duration.  I tried to look  up which are still permanent and couldn't find it easily.

Is it mustachian to go back on a commitment?  Imagine relying on someone's promises to take care of you, so you quit your job and give up your career to take care of the kids, spouse and household.  You homeschool/drive kids to events and classes/cook meals and save money/pay the bills, schedule the dr appts, take care of the broken appliance and other admin details for years.   Then you get divorced in your late 50s when your kids are off at college and your spouse thinks 1-2 years of alimony is enough because after all, s/he made the big bucks not you so it's their money.  Never mind you agreed together way back that you would stay home - it's ok to change the rules now at the end.  Now you're at an age where it's 1) hard to get any job (they think you'll be retiring soon, even if age discrimation is illegal, and won't hire you, plus the economy is not great and you have no work exp), and 2) impossible to ever work your way up the career ladder to the position you would have been.  This is why I always advocate people talking through all of the issues, particularly before making big decision like getting married, or one person staying home with kids.

It can go both ways.  Yes, divorce sucks, and I agree that alimony rules can be improved (my state, MA did this in 2011), but it doesn't seem to me that this is the appropriate place to post about swearing off marriage, when the OP isn't asking about that advice.  Instead I suggest you start a new thread.

You highlight many of the reasons why this is such a polarizing subject.  My state still enforces lifetime alimony at the whim of the judge.  The OP should know what may lie ahead in the arena of finances which seems salient to their post asking about prenups.

Oh, I am not actually opposed to prenups or to their discussion, I just think they have their time and place and this may not be it.  (Much earlier in the thread I posted reasons for prenups: vastly different assets/debts (to be determined in the eye of the beholder, but taking into consideration the pain & expensive & emotional effort in getting a prenup done), family business or business with partners, inheritance expectations, prior kids.  I didn't think it was particularly needed in this case, particularly as short-term marriages where the accumulation of money OP has is likely not to have much alimony at play, if any.)  I just find it a quite bothersome the one-sided viewpoint that I'm starting see frequently on this forum, that marriage is the devil because women are out to suck blood and money from men.  This makes me want to post on the other side, based on what I saw on the other side in pro bono family work.  On the other hand, I've got a friend that started working at Google early on (and has inheritance expectations), and I very much hope he's got a good prenup.  My DH and I even discussed one.  We opted not to get it however.

LowER

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2013, 09:11:17 PM »
Imagine paying someone you hate every month for the rest of your life, not until you retire - until you DIE!!!  Now that's mustachian....

Most states don't do permanent alimony anymore - generally it's rehabilitative, reimbursement and/or limited-duration.  I tried to look  up which are still permanent and couldn't find it easily.

Is it mustachian to go back on a commitment?  Imagine relying on someone's promises to take care of you, so you quit your job and give up your career to take care of the kids, spouse and household.  You homeschool/drive kids to events and classes/cook meals and save money/pay the bills, schedule the dr appts, take care of the broken appliance and other admin details for years.   Then you get divorced in your late 50s when your kids are off at college and your spouse thinks 1-2 years of alimony is enough because after all, s/he made the big bucks not you so it's their money.  Never mind you agreed together way back that you would stay home - it's ok to change the rules now at the end.  Now you're at an age where it's 1) hard to get any job (they think you'll be retiring soon, even if age discrimation is illegal, and won't hire you, plus the economy is not great and you have no work exp), and 2) impossible to ever work your way up the career ladder to the position you would have been.  This is why I always advocate people talking through all of the issues, particularly before making big decision like getting married, or one person staying home with kids.

It can go both ways.  Yes, divorce sucks, and I agree that alimony rules can be improved (my state, MA did this in 2011), but it doesn't seem to me that this is the appropriate place to post about swearing off marriage, when the OP isn't asking about that advice.  Instead I suggest you start a new thread.

You highlight many of the reasons why this is such a polarizing subject.  My state still enforces lifetime alimony at the whim of the judge.  The OP should know what may lie ahead in the arena of finances which seems salient to their post asking about prenups.

Oh, I am not actually opposed to prenups or to their discussion, I just think they have their time and place and this may not be it.  (Much earlier in the thread I posted reasons for prenups: vastly different assets/debts (to be determined in the eye of the beholder, but taking into consideration the pain & expensive & emotional effort in getting a prenup done), family business or business with partners, inheritance expectations, prior kids.  I didn't think it was particularly needed in this case, particularly as short-term marriages where the accumulation of money OP has is likely not to have much alimony at play, if any.)  I just find it a quite bothersome the one-sided viewpoint that I'm starting see frequently on this forum, that marriage is the devil because women are out to suck blood and money from men.  This makes me want to post on the other side, based on what I saw on the other side in pro bono family work.  On the other hand, I've got a friend that started working at Google early on (and has inheritance expectations), and I very much hope he's got a good prenup.  My DH and I even discussed one.  We opted not to get it however.

Without looking back at any of my other posts, am I a woman or a man?  If you think you know, ask yourself why you think you know.  I think (could be wrong) that my posts have been gender neutral/blind.  If they are not, that was not my intent.

Speaking of friends, I have one who was sentenced to lifetime alimony in the very early 40's, after a 15 year marriage, and they are both working professionals.  Why should (s)he have to pay for 45 years after a 15 year marriage?  There was income disparity, but not much.  Oh, and the payee went on to inherit millions just a few years after without recourse of the other party.  To top it all off, the payee was the one, the only one, having the extramarital affair - which doesn't matter in my state.  And that divorce happened right before mine, in the same court with the same judge.  It just ain't right, sometimes.....

CommonCents

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2013, 09:25:35 PM »
If you don't trust your partner for life with your money, maybe you shouldn't be getting married yet.
How many have people gotten in trouble when they trust their partner too much? I don't see a problem with a prenup. If a woman wont marry because of one, maybe it's not just the person she is in love with, but the financial security instead.

Oh I wasn't pointing at you specifically with the comment about the marriage bashing/women=the devil, but the one above earlier in the thread, and as I mentioned, other threads like this one, http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/welcome-to-the-forum/progress-and-%27lessons-learned%27-on-pending-fire/msg145114/#msg145114  I specifically tried to be general neutral in my post responding to you as well, using "spouse" rather than husband or wife.

grantmeaname

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2013, 05:52:43 AM »
Two examples, one by a known troll, is hardly a 'quite frequently'.

CommonCents

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2013, 08:26:32 AM »
Two examples, one by a known troll, is hardly a 'quite frequently'.

Well, I actually didn't say "quite frequently."  I said "I'm starting see frequently on this forum," although you are probably right it would have been more accurate to phrase it simply as "I'm starting see on this forum."  I'm not going to hunt through the forums to find the other posts I've read, but it wasn't just those two, they were just the easy pickings ones I could recall off the top of my head.  Regarding the "known troll", all I can say it that may be known to you, but it wasn't to me.  I would hope if it's really a known troll to others in this community that the account/IP address would be suspended and the posts moderated, as they were done earlier in this thread to remove a personal attack.

In any event, this has digressed from the OP's question, so I will step out of the thread now.  Cheers.

DoubleDown

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2013, 08:52:17 AM »
Federal law tells the states how to assess military pensions in a divorce proceeding.  I'm not sure that there's any way to "exclude" a military pension from divorce proceedings if the spouse meets the federal qualifications to be awarded a portion of it.  However I could be wrong, so if any of you posters know otherwise I'd appreciate a link to include in a post on the subject.


Nords, I don't have a link for you at the moment, but I'm nearly certain federal pensions can be excluded from splitting in a divorce. It does require the spouse to sign a waiver releasing their lawful claim to the pension, so clearly this would have to be spelled out in a prenuptial or postnuptial agreement. If nothing is written and signed otherwise, then as you've stated, Federal law will dictate that the pension will be split.

I have such a clause in my prenuptial agreement (written and reviewed by two attorneys in my state). There is a slight quirk, I think: The federal government requires the spouse who is waiving their right to the pension to sign the government's own release forms at the time the pension is being disbursed, or when a divorce occurs. So, the prenuptial agreement really just says that your intended agrees to sign any federal paperwork needed to effectuate the actual release at the time of retirement (or divorce). If the pensioner and spouse are still married at retirement age, this also allows the pensioner to choose the option of the higher pension payout, without surviving spouse benefits (although that would seem pretty heartless to me unless the spouse was independently wealthy).

This setup of agreeing to sign the paperwork later on is probably a good thing, overall, IMO. In this way, a spouse (or ex-spouse) can still claim survivor benefits if the pensioner dies while they're still married, and everyone is better off (well maybe not the dead pensioner, but at least they don't need the pension any more). But if a divorce should precede death (or retirement) of the pensioner, then as part of the divorce proceedings any necessary federal forms can be filled out releasing the claim.

Nords

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2013, 10:03:03 AM »
Federal law tells the states how to assess military pensions in a divorce proceeding.  I'm not sure that there's any way to "exclude" a military pension from divorce proceedings if the spouse meets the federal qualifications to be awarded a portion of it.  However I could be wrong, so if any of you posters know otherwise I'd appreciate a link to include in a post on the subject.

Nords, I don't have a link for you at the moment, but I'm nearly certain federal pensions can be excluded from splitting in a divorce. It does require the spouse to sign a waiver releasing their lawful claim to the pension, so clearly this would have to be spelled out in a prenuptial or postnuptial agreement. If nothing is written and signed otherwise, then as you've stated, Federal law will dictate that the pension will be split.

I have such a clause in my prenuptial agreement (written and reviewed by two attorneys in my state). There is a slight quirk, I think: The federal government requires the spouse who is waiving their right to the pension to sign the government's own release forms at the time the pension is being disbursed, or when a divorce occurs. So, the prenuptial agreement really just says that your intended agrees to sign any federal paperwork needed to effectuate the actual release at the time of retirement (or divorce). If the pensioner and spouse are still married at retirement age, this also allows the pensioner to choose the option of the higher pension payout, without surviving spouse benefits (although that would seem pretty heartless to me unless the spouse was independently wealthy).

This setup of agreeing to sign the paperwork later on is probably a good thing, overall, IMO. In this way, a spouse (or ex-spouse) can still claim survivor benefits if the pensioner dies while they're still married, and everyone is better off (well maybe not the dead pensioner, but at least they don't need the pension any more). But if a divorce should precede death (or retirement) of the pensioner, then as part of the divorce proceedings any necessary federal forms can be filled out releasing the claim.
Whew, that description of the process probably has enough loopholes for a team of pitbull lawyers to drive a fleet of Mack trucks through.  The divorcing spouse would start with "Well, there was a lot of pressure on me to sign, I didn't think it would come to this, I didn't understand my benefits when I signed it, the benefits back then were worth a lot less than they are now, and today I'm risking my life to do this for our children..."

I guess this situation is like an insurance policy:  you buy it because you couldn't handle the financial disaster with your own assets, the price seems cost-effective, and you hope disaster never happens.  But you never really know whether or not you're actually insured until you file a claim, and even then the cost of the litigation may exceed the insurance payout.

DoubleDown

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2013, 10:36:56 AM »
Whew, that description of the process probably has enough loopholes for a team of pitbull lawyers to drive a fleet of Mack trucks through.  The divorcing spouse would start with "Well, there was a lot of pressure on me to sign, I didn't think it would come to this, I didn't understand my benefits when I signed it, the benefits back then were worth a lot less than they are now, and today I'm risking my life to do this for our children..."


Yes, nothing in the federal law can be simple I suppose! But the protection of the prenup in this case is actually very solid, and there is plenty of case precedent to back it up (meaning, it will withstand the team of pitbull lawyers). Sure, nothing's ever 100% guaranteed, but when you've gone through all the mechanisms including having both spouses review and sign with their own attorneys, with lots of lead time, and it absolutely conforms to federal and state law, it's highly unlikely it would be tossed out by a court. When both sides have legal representation (a foundation of a solid prenup), it's pretty difficult if not impossible for someone to claim they "didn't understand." Courts don't buy that argument in just about every instance, or they'll file it under the category of "Oh well, you should have, because you signed it having the benefit of legal counsel representing you."

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2013, 12:25:04 PM »
Yeah, I don't know why anyone would enter into a business contract like marriage without a contingency plan.

Until someone invents a Crystal Ball, there is no guarantee that both parties are going to grow/evolve on similar trajectories.  Come up with a plan to protect all parties in the worst case scenario. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2013, 12:48:13 PM »
A prenup is not a contingency plan.  It's planning a failure.  It is disincentive to spend effort to work on your marriage and provides confidence that you don't have to marry the right person.

DoubleDown

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2013, 02:21:52 PM »
A prenup is not a contingency plan.  It's planning a failure.  It is disincentive to spend effort to work on your marriage and provides confidence that you don't have to marry the right person.

Because divorce is so easy and fun as long as the financial ties are easier to sort out?

Is auto insurance a plan to get in a catastrophic accident? I realize no analogy is 100% apt, but I don't see how making contingencies for something outside your full control to potentially go wrong, is the same as laying the groundwork and then actively working towards it going wrong.

Insanity

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2013, 02:35:54 PM »
I think it is obvious that those against the pre-nup would not marry someone who asked them to sign one..

Nords

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2013, 03:16:48 PM »
A prenup is not a contingency plan.  It's planning a failure.  It is disincentive to spend effort to work on your marriage and provides confidence that you don't have to marry the right person.
I think it is obvious that those against the pre-nup would not marry someone who asked them to sign one..
Like buying insurance, it's all in the sales pitch.

This is probably the wrong way to do it:
"Sweetie, will you marry me?"
"YES!!"
"Kewl, let's talk prenup!"

Like everything else that goes into a marriage, it's better to discuss it before the engagement.  Watch for opinions or even have a casual chat about prenups to see if you're on the same page.  If the two of you are diametrically opposed (like financial savers vs spendthrifts, or childless vs six kids) then you move on.  If you agree with each other then you're probably ready to start discussing terms. 

60+ posts ago the OP said:
I'm starting to get nervous about not having a prenup.  I'm planning to be married in April and am entering the marriage with the same amount of savings as my SO has debt (student loans only, but a high rate).  We currently operate with combined finances and make about the same amount of money each.  We're getting married in California.
Should I push for a prenup?  I'm more likely to out earn her if we both stick with slow and steady salary + bonus jobs, but she's in startups and always has the 1:1,000,000 shot of hitting it big.  I don't want any money from her; I just don't want her to initiate a divorce and take my money for the rest of my life.
If yes, which I think is the right answer, how do I approach this bad boy?
The way he states the issue gives the impression that the two of them agreed to get married before they'd explored their feelings on prenups.  Now the OP is using the "I" word to describe what he wants to get out of a "we" relationship.  I could see how his fiancée might feel a bit of disenchantment at this potential renegotiation of the terms.  It certainly would not enhance one's emotional security.

So in this case it seems like a bad situation.  However if both sides of the happy couple happen to share the same opinion on prenups, and they've had that conversation before the engagement (or whatever ceremony marks their commitment) then I think a prenup will work.  Who knows, TurboLTFiancée might be posting on TRUU Confessions right now that she'd really like to find a way to tell her spouse-to-be that she wants to shield her startup options with a prenup.

That's the financial advice I'd give my daughter.  She's already decided (with all her life experience of 20 years) that she wants a prenup in her marriage.  I see no reason to encourage her to lower her seduction selection criteria to encourage an even larger pool of gold-diggers...

LDoon

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2013, 05:22:02 PM »
A prenup is not a contingency plan.  It's planning a failure.  It is disincentive to spend effort to work on your marriage and provides confidence that you don't have to marry the right person.

I'd counter that if the reason a person is staying married is financially based, then the marriage has already failed its purpose. 

I'd like to think we can all agree that a marriage is primarily an emotional commitment to another person, and that the financial aspect is secondary.  But unforeseen events can always happen, and sometimes do.  Should a divorce occur, a pre-nup helps mitigate the financial damage but there is no mitigation against the emotional damage (which most would argue has far greater impact than the financial damage).  I personally don't agree with those that are implying that a person who has a pre-nup is less emotionally committed than a person without one.    But this is an issue where the only opinions that matter are those of the two people considering marriage.

[Btw, completely agree with Nords that the topic should be discussed well before the proposal]

GuitarStv

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2013, 05:35:14 PM »
A prenup is not a contingency plan.  It's planning a failure.  It is disincentive to spend effort to work on your marriage and provides confidence that you don't have to marry the right person.

Because divorce is so easy and fun as long as the financial ties are easier to sort out?

Is auto insurance a plan to get in a catastrophic accident? I realize no analogy is 100% apt, but I don't see how making contingencies for something outside your full control to potentially go wrong, is the same as laying the groundwork and then actively working towards it going wrong.

Statistically you are expected to have four accidents in your driving career.  That's why car insurance is required by law.  I'd argue that being on a road with thousands of distracted drivers who you don't know every day is somewhat different than getting to know one person for many years before deciding to join your lives and families together forever.

If you're so sure that your marriage will end in divorce . . . I don't understand why you would marry at all.  What are you expecting marriage to provide that simply living together would not?  Even easier than a divorce is . . . no divorce because there was never a marriage.  Why go to all the work of getting a prenup and then getting married so that your divorce is easier?

limeandpepper

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2013, 06:21:16 PM »
I don't think there's anything wrong with a prenup if it makes sense for your current and/or future situation. Definitely something you want to see eye to eye with your partner though, whether your views are for or against. I suspect couples who are on the same page on their general values and philosophies will most likely be on the same page on this issue as well. As has been said, it should be discussed earlier on. In my relationship it was just randomly brought up when we watched a TV episode where the idea of prenups was part of the storyline, we asked each other about our thoughts on prenups and neither of us had a problem with it. It was nice to know that we're both okay either with having or not having one. For me that is the ideal situation... I think I would be uncomfortable with someone who is either extremely for or against it. Life is not black and white.

DoubleDown

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #67 on: October 09, 2013, 10:19:57 AM »
First off GuitarStv, let me say I appreciate your tone in this discussion, and have frequently laughed at your humor on this site. With that ass-kissing out of the way, I wanted to address the specific points.


Statistically you are expected to have four accidents in your driving career.  That's why car insurance is required by law.  I'd argue that being on a road with thousands of distracted drivers who you don't know every day is somewhat different than getting to know one person for many years before deciding to join your lives and families together forever.


Yes, and statistically a marriage has a 40 -50% chance of failure. Obviously the two situations are not identical, and we can do much to mitigate the risks in our own personal cases (like driving more safely, or picking a good spouse). Still though the risk is there, and anyone who thinks they can weed out a potentially bad marriage partner 100% of the time is being naïve in my opinion. As many others have noted through their own personal experience, people do often change over the years, and it's not always possible to know how someone will behave when things are not going well in a relationship for whatever reason.


If you're so sure that your marriage will end in divorce . . . I don't understand why you would marry at all.  What are you expecting marriage to provide that simply living together would not?  Even easier than a divorce is . . . no divorce because there was never a marriage.  Why go to all the work of getting a prenup and then getting married so that your divorce is easier?

That is a false portrayal. No one is "so sure their marriage will end in divorce." It is not logical to assume people go into a marriage because they believe it will fail. They recognize that it can fail, despite their best efforts.

Some people do conclude that they have no reason to marry and cohabitate instead. But there are certain legal advantages to marriage such as Social Security survivor benefits, pension benefits to spouses, and so on. Not to mention the obvious social or cultural influences towards marriage. And in some places, states will treat cohabitation as a common law marriage anyhow, so you can't always escape the financial threats of splitting up, even if you never marry.

GuitarStv

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #68 on: October 09, 2013, 11:25:05 AM »
No worries.  I get that some people are into the whole prenup idea . . . it is a bit abhorrent to me, but I understand the basic reasoning behind it.

Many marriages fail.  If I lose a big chunk of my money because my marriage fails . . . so be it.  So far it has been worth the price of admission.

unpolloloco

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2013, 12:48:03 PM »
A prenup is not a contingency plan.  It's planning a failure.  It is disincentive to spend effort to work on your marriage and provides confidence that you don't have to marry the right person.

Because divorce is so easy and fun as long as the financial ties are easier to sort out?

Is auto insurance a plan to get in a catastrophic accident? I realize no analogy is 100% apt, but I don't see how making contingencies for something outside your full control to potentially go wrong, is the same as laying the groundwork and then actively working towards it going wrong.

Statistically you are expected to have four accidents in your driving career.  That's why car insurance is required by law.  I'd argue that being on a road with thousands of distracted drivers who you don't know every day is somewhat different than getting to know one person for many years before deciding to join your lives and families together forever.

If you're so sure that your marriage will end in divorce . . . I don't understand why you would marry at all.  What are you expecting marriage to provide that simply living together would not?  Even easier than a divorce is . . . no divorce because there was never a marriage.  Why go to all the work of getting a prenup and then getting married so that your divorce is easier?

Statistically, you're expected to have about one divorce in your life (40-50% of first marriages fail, 60-67% of second marriages do, 70-73% of thirds do - add all those up and you get about one per person) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/galtime/second-and-third-marriage_1_b_2551496.html).  Why aren't prenups mandated then?  Would lower court costs...

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2013, 12:51:59 PM »
A prenup is not a contingency plan.  It's planning a failure.  It is disincentive to spend effort to work on your marriage and provides confidence that you don't have to marry the right person.

Because divorce is so easy and fun as long as the financial ties are easier to sort out?

Is auto insurance a plan to get in a catastrophic accident? I realize no analogy is 100% apt, but I don't see how making contingencies for something outside your full control to potentially go wrong, is the same as laying the groundwork and then actively working towards it going wrong.

Statistically you are expected to have four accidents in your driving career.  That's why car insurance is required by law.  I'd argue that being on a road with thousands of distracted drivers who you don't know every day is somewhat different than getting to know one person for many years before deciding to join your lives and families together forever.

If you're so sure that your marriage will end in divorce . . . I don't understand why you would marry at all.  What are you expecting marriage to provide that simply living together would not?  Even easier than a divorce is . . . no divorce because there was never a marriage.  Why go to all the work of getting a prenup and then getting married so that your divorce is easier?

Statistically, you're expected to have about one divorce in your life (40-50% of first marriages fail, 60-67% of second marriages do, 70-73% of thirds do - add all those up and you get about one per person) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/galtime/second-and-third-marriage_1_b_2551496.html).  Why aren't prenups mandated then?  Would lower court costs...

Yeah, why even call the marriages too? We could just have our lawyers preside over the ceremony. The judge will now pronounce us "merged".

grantmeaname

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2013, 04:34:16 PM »
The median person has no divorces, and that's probably a better measure of centrality for distributions like this. Further, you're assuming everyone gets married. They do not.

sobezen

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2017, 02:25:41 PM »
Wanted to share a good article on the benefits having a prenuptial agreement http://www.themoneyhabit.org/normal-people-need-prenups-write-dead-simple-one/

Thoughts?

SKL-HOU

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2017, 09:02:13 PM »
It is funny how many posters think it is not a real marriage, why even get married if you want a prenup but with so many marriages ending in divorce, it would be naive to think if any of you have a safe marriage. I have read so many posters in various boards where they lecture others about what is a real marriage and how theirs is better because they share everything then come back later with their divorce story. Prenup is the smart thing to do. Also, if the person is not marrying for financial gain then i would think they wouldn't have an issue.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2017, 10:06:24 PM »
I don't understand the squeamishness about prenups. Divorce is a realistic possibility for every single couple who is in love and trusts each other.

My parents got divorced after 20 years of marriage. I love my husband very much and think we have a successful marriage at the 13 year mark - but my parents were also still happy at the 13 year mark. Their doomed marriage still had 7 years to go at this point in their timeline.

My husband's parents made it a paltry 3 years.

Obviously, since we got married, we assumed we're different than our forebearers. We unlocked the secrets of a happy marriage that our parents were never able to figure out! Right? Right? Let's hope so. But on the practical side of things... we went ahead and signed the prenup.

People who say they would never marry someone who asked for a prenup - would never entertain the notion! (OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE NOT IN LOVE!!!) - are supposing that they're better at predicting whether or not a marriage will be successful than all those losers who get divorced. Or they pretend they don't care if they lose a bunch of money and pay alimony.

Guess what? I don't have a single divorced client who is happy about paying alimony. And on the other side of the table, most of their ex-spouses are also unhappy with the amount of alimony. It's a huge bone of contention in post-marital parenting relationships.

None of us are perfect. We don't have the secrets to a perfect marriage. Discussing the terms of a prenup helps to lay the groundwork for a good divorce if you need it. And if you don't, it just sits in a drawer. No big deal.

As an example of what else a prenup can do - I gave up a lot to marry my husband - I moved countries, gave up scholarships, had limited employment prospects, was far away from any support system. Our prenup set out a settlement that would protect me financially and legally and ensure I could start over where I wanted without financial hardship. I barely paid attention at the time, because I was blinded by love and didn't really care (like so many anti-prenup posters!) but I recently found our prenup and was pleasantly surprised by how the attorney who drafted it made every effort to ensure I was safe and secure in the event of a divorce.

I don't need that protection any more, but that doesn't mean we didn't do a good thing by making sure we had that in place in case I did need it. These days, many of those prenup provisions would be unimportant, but our prenup still guaranteed that there won't be alimony and formalizes our original intention to settle property in a specific way. Still not planning to get divorced though. 7 more years until I beat my parents' marital record.

astvilla

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #75 on: May 06, 2017, 06:12:54 AM »
Kind of off topic but do prenups handle potential future inheritances?

For example, one spouse has very rich parents/rich family, the other does not.  Are you allowed to say an inheritance goes only to 1 person in a marriage and not the whole couple?  Or is that something handled in a will, not prenup?

Cause sometimes, a potential partner visits your parents' house and internally factors that in when thinking about a future with you.  Dumb but they think about having a piece of that property/wealth/ whatever it is.

SKL-HOU

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Re: Help with a Prenup
« Reply #76 on: May 06, 2017, 08:54:03 AM »
Kind of off topic but do prenups handle potential future inheritances?

For example, one spouse has very rich parents/rich family, the other does not.  Are you allowed to say an inheritance goes only to 1 person in a marriage and not the whole couple?  Or is that something handled in a will, not prenup?

Cause sometimes, a potential partner visits your parents' house and internally factors that in when thinking about a future with you.  Dumb but they think about having a piece of that property/wealth/ whatever it is.

I am pretty sure spouses never have rights to inheritences automatically. But you have to keep it very separate and not comingle.