Author Topic: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?  (Read 2688 times)

teltic

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Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« on: August 25, 2019, 01:27:27 PM »
Hello!  Someone smashed into my parked car Thursday night... Luckily they left their info and their insurance is covering the expenses!

Totaled car: 2013 Hyundai Elantra (Paid $9300 in 2015)
KBB value: ~$6101 - $7740. (assuming "good" condition)

We will see what the insurance company offers me...

I've always been attracted to electric cars.  I love the technology/newness of it.... But finance is king....

Work has free charging stations, which I plan to work here for at least 2 years.  I spent ~$1k on gas last year.

I drive around 10k a year.  Grocery/work/gym within 3 miles from home.  I do visit friends and family that are ~60 miles round trip on weekends.


#1 https://cars.ksl.com/listing/5815567?ad_cid=5

Nissan Leaf 2014 S with a new battery.  $7100. Online says 84 mile range, pictures show 69 miles (Not exactly sure if that picture shows fully charged).  I am worried on weekends I won't be able to do a roundtrip to a friends house (especially winter time).


#2 https://cars.ksl.com/listing/5805010?ad_cid=3

2013 Chevy Volt. $9450 with 75k miles.  I like the idea of having 38 mile range, then it switches to gas. that 38 mile range will cover 75-85% of my driving (guessing).

3. https://cars.ksl.com/listing/5701825?ad_cid=6

2013 Toyota Prius. 50mpg?  148k miles (should I be worried?).


4. Kind of serious.... 2019 Nissan Leaf S: $31690. - $7500 (fed rebate) - $3500 (utility rebate) = $20,690. kbb.com value of a 2018 Nissan Leaf S with 15k miles is $21,332.... Could I potentially buy a new car and resell summer 2020...  and repeat?  I don't see any wording whether an individual can reuse fed/utility rebates...

Taxes is 6.85% (UT); so a $2170 bill... I won't be "breaking even", but losing $1-2k a year in depreciation is what I was getting with my previous car.  Maybe I'm oversimplying the numbers here.


Anyway.... Would love some suggestions/advice!  What would you do if you were me? 


Edit: an EV that has ~150 mile range would eliminate my stress over my car dying on me.  I can see 2018+ leafs (leaves?) are 150+.  But I also get buying new is stupid.  I've also thought about buying a car that will last me 3-4 years, then sell off to buy a used 2018-2019 Leaf for ~$7k (assuming they follow the same depreciation trend as previous models).
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 01:30:28 PM by teltic »

gaja

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2019, 03:05:50 PM »
There are no other evs on the second hand market? Like the eGolf, Zoe, bmw i3, etc? https://elbil.no/om-elbil/elbiler-idag/ has good numbers for winter range (tested in real winter conditions).

nereo

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2019, 06:31:11 PM »

Linea_Norway

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2019, 02:23:46 AM »
Disclaimer: I don't have an EV and don't know so much about it, but I am considering buying one myself and reading up a bit on the subject.

How many fast charging stations are there in the areas that you visit in the weekends? Most EVs can fast-charge to 80% in 30-60 minutes or so (Edit: longer in the winter). I guess it would be doable during a weekend trip to have a charging break somewhere? To load the car at a friend's home at a normal electricity outlet might take many hours to fill it up.

Also keep in mind that if you want to load your EV at home in the future, that you might need to have a home charger installed, which is a bit of an investment. This is to be able to full charge your car within reasonable time, as some cars need 19 hours to full charge on a normal outlet.

In your case, if you can load during the weekend trips, it seems like your usage pattern matches very well with driving an EV.

If you have place to park 2 cars, you could also consider to have an EV and a beater normal car for the weekends. Does your area have a "borrow a neighborhood car" system? Would that be an alternative for the weekends?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 04:48:02 AM by Linea_Norway »

Zamboni

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2019, 02:31:54 AM »
Sorry your car got smashed, which is inconvenient, but looking at cars can be fun! Based upon what you wrote, the Volt seems like the best fit for you.

Around where I live you could make a Leaf work easily as there are frequently unoccupied charging stations at the public libraries, city parking garages, and various other locations. My employer has also set some up in our lots. Where my brother lives, though, I am certain a Leaf wouldn't work well because they just haven't invested in the infrastructure around him. So, it seems like you could do more research to see if the Leaf is really a viable option in your specific location . . . for example, you can ask your friends that you visit if they have noticed any charging stations around where they live.

Good luck!

habanero

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2019, 03:37:25 AM »
I own an EV and I would never, under any circumstances, buy an EV unless I could charge it at home whenever I wanted. Only exception would potentially be if there was  100% guaranteed free public spots right next to where I lived. As in just across the street. Its just a major hassleto not be able to charge at home. Especially with a short-range EV requiring frequent charging. 

Fast charging stations are also quite inconvenient for semi-short trips (like the mentioned 60 miles roundtrip). That turns a quite short trip into a rather long one timewise. When I drive long-distance on the Tesla network I stop for charging every 2-3 hours - which is fine as that's when I like to take a brake anyway. Anything more frequent than that would start becoming a hassle.

Dave1442397

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2019, 06:19:13 AM »
In your situation, I'd go with the Volt. Those cars have depreciated quickly, so they're a pretty good deal used.


Linea_Norway

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2019, 06:38:54 AM »
Also consider a plugin hybrid car: drive electric in your own town and use fuel in the weekend.

gaja

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2019, 07:49:59 AM »
Notice the difference between those who own evs and those who donít, in this thread and in other situations. Before buying an ev, people look for rapid chargers, and think slow chargers are an inconvenience. After buying, people figure out that slow charging is the less time consuming of them all: who cares whether it takes 19 hours to trickle charge the car, if that is time you spend sleeping, going to the grocery store, working out, etc. Rapid charging is boring, and not something you want to rely on for regular travels. Every so often on holidays or for infrequent family visits, or for those days where you forgot to charge the car; sure. But not several times a week.

Slow charging takes 20 seconds: the time you spend plugging it in. Rapid charging takes15- 20 minutes, or even more for cars with very large batteries.

habanero

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2019, 07:55:48 AM »
Almost all my charging is done at home. And it's not just a slow charger - it's a slow charger at close to the lowest possible setting (I charge on 7A out of 13A possible for fire safety reasons). This gives me a whopping 7km / 4 miles per hour the car is plugged in. The point, however, is that my car, like pretty much every car, spends the majority of its life being parked. So as gaja points out - it doesn't matter how slow it is as long as it's fast enough. That basically means "able to charge the everyday driving needs overnight". As I don't drive a lot and never commute by car my daily driving is very low. But the situation would be the same with a 50 mile commute each way. I would still be able to charge it at home from a slow charger.



economista

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2019, 07:57:36 AM »
My husband and I went through this debate and we settled on a plug-in Prius. It takes 5 hours to fully charge on a normal outlet in our garage and the full charge gets us around 30 miles on electric only. Once every 2-3 weeks we have a day when we run out of the charge and switch over to gas for a few miles to get home. The gas engine is 55 mpg. Our current average mpg factoring in both driving modes is 337 mpg.

Before buying it I also calculated the cost of charging it at home vs paying for gas. If we fully charge the car every night it will cost $26 per month, but I would say it only gets a full charge around half of the month.

gaja

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2019, 08:26:56 AM »
Tale from everyday ev life:

This weekend we have had 3 evs parked outside our house: my Nissan env200 van, dhís Tesla, and my parentsí Kia Soul. They drove 600 km to visit us (and the same distance back home). They did charge on a few rapids on the way, but did not spend much more time than when they use their diesel car, since they like taking breaks to eat, visit museums, etc. they were at 50% when they arrived, and trickle charged up to 94% before they left. When they were done charging, we also topped up the van. Total consumption: 20-30 kWh.

We mainly used the Tesla while they were here, to visit neighboring towns and the beach. Due to bad planning, we had to charge it for a few minutes on a rapid after going to the beach. That added 15 minutes to that trip. And DH also chose to go to the supercharger last night, to make sure I had enough for a 60 km job journey today. We could easily get enough if we trickle charged overnight, so I suspect the supercharging was more about him getting a break.

teltic

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2019, 10:16:06 AM »
Thanks for all the input!  After spending way too much researching cars (I'll admit it's kind of fun car shopping), I'm leaning heavily on the chevy volt.  I plan to do more research on other plug in hybrids (Interested in the Prius plug in)...

Looking around online, there seems to be a lot of charging stations around downtown salt lake city.  The 3 particular regular trips on the weekends (friends houses), 1 of the 3 have charging stations nearby.  I'd feel a little weird asking friends/family if I could plug in while I hang out with them... But maybe that's something you just have to get over?

I think a ~150 range car would be perfect for me... But it seems those are only available for a Tesla, or a 2018+ EV car.  I'm not going to pay $20k to get the range I'd prefer.  I could see myself buying those 2018-2019 EVs 3-5 years later.


Rocking a 2012 Chevy Volt for $8k for 3-5 years, then switching to a 2018 leaf/bolt for $8-10k.


Another question for you all...

Which year would you get?  It seems most of the deprecation has been hit after 3 years....

(prices via private party listings online)
2019 = $34k
2018 = $26k
2017 = $18k
2016 = 15k
2015 = 13k
2014 = 12
2013 = 10
2012 = 9k

After 2016, it seems it's a ~$1-1.5k depreciation per year... Do I get a 2016 for $15k, that is the 2nd gen (which gives me 53 EV range), to then sell (or not) in 4 years for $9k ($6k loss)... Or buy a 2012 for $9k to sell in 4 years for $4k ($4k loss, guessing it continues at a $1k rate).

« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 10:19:23 AM by teltic »

habanero

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2019, 10:35:34 AM »
I'd feel a little weird asking friends/family if I could plug in while I hang out with them... But maybe that's something you just have to get over?

Yes, both you (and they if they have an issue with it). Plugging into a regular household socket for a few hours consumes electricity for around a buck give or take some depending on local prices. Granted, Norway has quite cheap electricity but charging my Tesla from zero to full costs about 10 dollars for reference. It would require being plugged in for almost 30 hours.

ketchup

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2019, 10:44:57 AM »
Volt sounds perfect for your use case.

gaja

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2019, 11:12:02 AM »
Why do you need 150 miles? There are plenty of bevs that can cover the 60 mile need you mentioned. Even an old leaf in wintertime can manage that. Is the 150 miles a want or a need?

I would not buy a hybrid. The tests iíve sen show a substantially higher fuel consumption than advertised. And having a double set of engine stuff that can go wrong is not something I wish for in a car.

nereo

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2019, 11:44:35 AM »
Why do you need 150 miles? There are plenty of bevs that can cover the 60 mile need you mentioned. Even an old leaf in wintertime can manage that. Is the 150 miles a want or a need?

I would not buy a hybrid. The tests iíve sen show a substantially higher fuel consumption than advertised. And having a double set of engine stuff that can go wrong is not something I wish for in a car.

The biggest beef I have with BEVs are the massive costs (both environmental and energy) of the large lithium battery pack they cart around, when only a fraction of it is used on a regular basis.  It's not dissimilar to how people drive huge SUVs daily for the 2% of the time when they actually might need that kind of capacity.

As for teh double-stuff of stuff that can go wrong (electric drivetrain and ICE for charging) - it doesn't seem like its been a significant issue for most.  When your gasoline engine only kicks on 5-15% of the time you can put 100,000 miles on teh car but have an engine that's still practically brand new.

teltic

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2019, 12:20:57 PM »
Why do you need 150 miles? There are plenty of bevs that can cover the 60 mile need you mentioned. Even an old leaf in wintertime can manage that. Is the 150 miles a want or a need?

I would not buy a hybrid. The tests iíve sen show a substantially higher fuel consumption than advertised. And having a double set of engine stuff that can go wrong is not something I wish for in a car.

There are times on the weekend when I hang out with multiple people/areas.  Call me a wimp if you must, but the idea of requiring to be 100% charged to go to my friends house and back, with no margin of error, is a tad inconvenient. Range anxiety I guess. Requiring to ask my friends/family to plug in to charge so I can get enough range to make my way home (or if I want to go to a specific restaurant on my way home), it's inconvenient.

While the leaf claims to have 84 mile range.  Most of the used (2013-2015) leafs are showing 50-60.  To buy a 60 mile range leaf, I will assume in 5 years my leaf will now only go 40 miles (2011s are rocking numbers like this).

Range anxiety. 

nereo

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2019, 12:29:49 PM »

While the leaf claims to have 84 mile range.  Most of the used (2013-2015) leafs are showing 50-60.  To buy a 60 mile range leaf, I will assume in 5 years my leaf will now only go 40 miles (2011s are rocking numbers like this).


That's not why the various model year Leafs get those different ranges.

Nissan improved their battery usage and regenerative breaking in 2013, which is the main reason why the 2011 models get worse range.  In 2016 Nissan made the battery pack bigger, which also increased the range.
The 2013-15 leafs won't "go to 40" simply because that's where the 2011 models are at.

That said, Nissan really didn't do a very good job with thermal management and their battery packs, which has caused a lot of problems.

More important question is: what kind of charging infrastructure exists near you?  My family has a Volt, and I've never, ever had a problem plugging it in at a family or friend's house while visiting, though you only get a 3-4 extra miles per hour charging.


Arbitrage

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2019, 02:50:49 PM »
I know this isn't why you posted, but this is the MMM forum, so I have to ask - if grocery/work/gym are within 3 miles of home, why even drive?  Those are all within easy biking distance. 

teltic

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2019, 03:40:54 PM »
I know this isn't why you posted, but this is the MMM forum, so I have to ask - if grocery/work/gym are within 3 miles of home, why even drive?  Those are all within easy biking distance.

Good question!  I'm a weak human and require an gas/electric powered wheelchair.  I do visit friends/family nearly every weekend and crank 60 mile round trips then... Which I couldn't do via bike.

I'm simply lazy. I'll accept the face punches.


While the leaf claims to have 84 mile range.  Most of the used (2013-2015) leafs are showing 50-60.  To buy a 60 mile range leaf, I will assume in 5 years my leaf will now only go 40 miles (2011s are rocking numbers like this).


More important question is: what kind of charging infrastructure exists near you?  My family has a Volt, and I've never, ever had a problem plugging it in at a family or friend's house while visiting, though you only get a 3-4 extra miles per hour charging.



For the places I commute; eh.  I do have stations at my work; so my Monday Through Friday is fine.

Saturday/Sunday; 1 of the 3 consistent-ish places I go to will be fine. 

I could manage a 2016 107 mile one (their 30 kWh version)...  I can see a 2016 24kWh for $12k right now... No 30kWh though...


teltic

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2019, 04:44:34 PM »
https://cars.ksl.com/listing/5796844?ad_cid=18

120 mile range 2012 ford focus electric for $10k?  Hm....  New battery in 2017...

orangewarner

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2019, 10:05:17 PM »
You're in Utah, have you considered getting a natural gas Honda Civic? Cng is about $1.75 here. You can get a civic for $3000-7000...

gaja

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Re: Help me get a new car: Electric vehicle?
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2019, 04:09:33 PM »
https://cars.ksl.com/listing/5796844?ad_cid=18

120 mile range 2012 ford focus electric for $10k?  Hm....  New battery in 2017...

AFAIK there is no way to rapid charge a 2012 Ford Focus.

Nereo is right about the batteries. It is only an issue in first gen leaf (mainly 2011). So a new battery on a 2012 Ford Focus would be a red flag for me. Why did they need to replace it? Is it a lemon, or did they treat it poorly?

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!