Author Topic: Help me deal with impending insane purchase  (Read 24092 times)

80Westy

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Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« on: March 22, 2015, 10:31:12 AM »
Hello, and thanks for reading.  I am struggling with the idea that the wife wants to buy a 2012 Jeep Wrangler.  I am not asking for advice to persuade her against this folly, as I have exhausted logical arguments with her about practicality, gas mileage, cost, what's wrong with her current car?, etc.  What I am requesting is help optimizing the purchase and coming to acceptance of this situation.  It's only money, right?

Some of the reasons I am freaking out:
- we don't have enough cash to pay 100%, so I would be borrowing $8-12K. 
- just received a bonus that is the majority of the cash on hand, and I had mentally earmarked these funds to pay the remaining CC debt ($6.6K, 0% until Oct15).  The idea of redirecting these funds to a vehicle is a major disappointment to me.
- Going to LA from the Midwest for spring break in 2 weeks, and based on past experience, it won't be cheap.
- DD starts college in August, and I have IRA funds to cover but income tax will apply to withdrawls. 

Wife has always said she shouldn't have to drive a clunker/rustbucket, and her 2002 Grand Cherokee is rusting at all 4 wheel wells, has had multiple problems in last 12 months which I have fixed (battery, tires (used from CL), cam sensor, crank sensor, new radiator, tie rod end, rear U joint) and am about to fix (sway bar link, 02 sensor code, gasoline smell).  Last fall it seemed like something broke every week.  It also has a loud but fully functional alternator (been like that for years).  Yes, it is getting rough.  It brings me immense satisfaction that I have kept it running.  She is done with it.

I hope to pay $20K for a Wrangler which we drove and she loved, dealer asking $22K.  Vehicle is certified pre-owned, 28K miles, manual, only option is AC, otherwise it is a stripper.  Comes with extended powertrain warranty (53 months remaining / 100K total miles).  Edmunds says in top condition it is worth $21K.

Anyone been in a similar situation with a spouse?  How did you deal?

BlueHouse

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2015, 10:37:01 AM »
Have you explained to your wife that she is using her daughters college fund to pay for the car?  I would ah e a real problem taking anything out of retirement for any reason, but it sounds as if you're rearranging buckets of money so that the wife doesn't mind stealing from retirement but wouldn't steal from daughter ?  If your IRA is off limits, would the choice still be the same? 

Another Reader

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2015, 10:41:38 AM »
Ummmm....just say no?  Say WE cannot afford to do this right now.  How can we solve this problem together, given our financial situation?

Can you switch your car with hers and drive the rust bucket for another year?  You guys don't have much in savings and owe $6,600 in credit card debt.  I would pay that off today with MY bonus.  If you must buy a car, buy something cheaper AND forego the trip to LA. 

And use an IRA to pay for college?  No way would I do that.  DD can work, attend community college, and apply for scholarships.  You can't afford to fund college if it comes out of your retirement.

math-ya

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2015, 10:44:28 AM »
I have a wrangler, and as far as cars go they are real money hogs-.But if your looking for a fun toy- they are super fun. The new wranglers are junk in my opinion and only the rubicons are decent. Get a yj (1995) or older. They last forever and are the easiest cars to work on. I have had my '90 for 10 years and have never had to take it to the shop, and I'm no mechanic!

Murse

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2015, 10:49:35 AM »
You are not going to get the response you want on this forum. This forum is about how to be more of a badass, not how to minimize being soft. The responses are all going to be one of two
1) don't do it, it is stupid. Persuade her.
2) how to minimize the fire if number 1 is unsuccessful.

Honestly, you simply can not afford it. You already have cc debt it sounds like you are trying to pay off and instead of paying it off with cash and then saving for a car, the intent is to use the money to dig a bigger hole? You are going the wrong way buddy. The truth is that if this is followed through future you is going to hate past you. My advice (not what you posted for)- post a case study listing everything out so we can help you win.



use2betrix

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2015, 11:01:04 AM »
Exhausting all other options of the Jeep purchase not taking place - how about a different model? A 1997-2006 are insanely reliable. They have the 4.0L and are incredibly reliable. You could get a good used one for around 12k. Easy and cheap to work on, no need for warranty.

She wants a manual that's not loaded, so no reason for the new ones. She is looking at a '12 which has the 3.8L not the 3.6L, so the fuel mileage will still be poor. About like the 4.0L. The 13 and newer have a new engine.

You can save 8-10k getting the 97-06 models. The big thing is she doesn't want a loaded keep, which makes the prior model almost ideal.

I have had an 01 wrangler and an 09, so I know a lot about them.

DagobertDuck

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2015, 11:14:48 AM »
Veto it. As mentioned above, you can not afford it.

80Westy

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2015, 11:17:41 AM »
I appreciate all your responses. Thank you. 

Bluehouse, no, I had not thought of saying that.  I am afraid wife will take that as manipulative since she knows I am against the purchase.  But, maybe I can get her to come to that conclusion?   

Another Reader, I have been saying no to car replacement for quite some time.  When I say we can't afford something, she points to $600K in 401K/IRA's.  My car is 2001 Neon which she hates, so swapping cars is not an option.

math-ya, I don't think I can talk to her about replacing a 2002 with a 1995 or older. 

Murse.  Thank you for your undoubtedly accurate synopsis of the responses.  I think our financial situation is better than my OP implied as we do have (in my opinion) a substantial egg saved up.  I am trying to keep the savings going and improving, she is just thinking a little differently...

Trixr606, I thought the '12 we drove had the 3.6L, will have to verify.  It did have the newer interior (compared to '07-'11?).  I agree the 4.0L is great, her 2002 GC has it and we've had no base engine trouble.  Will have to look into later TJ's as you suggested.

use2betrix

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2015, 11:28:23 AM »
Ah yes, you are correct. It was 2012. Well that engine is better, however I would still look hard at the 97-06 models. They are great vehicles. I had one for several years and not a single issue.

MrFrugalChicago

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2015, 11:52:51 AM »
I would see a counselor and work on the deeper issues. Otherwise you may win the car battle, but lose the marriage (and thus, 300k of your lovely 600k stash).

You can't force someone to save. You have to both be on the same page. Otherwise there is no point.

A jeep is a super unreliable car. If you must throw money at a new car, it seems a terrible idea.  You could buy a 2012 CRV or Rav4 for more like 16-17k and have a more reliable car (but again, I still say don't do it).

Another Reader

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2015, 11:54:53 AM »
The $600k in retirement is allocated already.  It should not be justification for spending today.  It's your future income and not available to be spent today.  At a 4 percent SWR, that will only provide you $24k annual income when you retire.  Can you live on that?

This is all the savings you have.  If t were not for the IRA, you would have nothing.  It has all been spent.  And more, because you have the credit card debt.  Your wife sees your bonus as more money available to spend.   Instead of paying for past spending, she wants to put you further into debt.

Pay off the credit card debt with your bonus, as planned.  Then deal with the car situation with zero consumer debt and a lot less cash on hand. 

horsepoor

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2015, 12:05:55 PM »
It sounds like her old car truly is a POS that is costing money to keep on the road.  However, maybe you could strike a compromise with her, such as getting a 5-year old economy car to drive for a few years with the agreement that she can get the vehicle she wants when:  college expenses are covered, credit card debt is $0 and the vehicle can be purchased for cash.  Something like a used Civic should be reliable, inexpensive to operate, and not depreciate very quickly over a couple year period.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2015, 12:13:24 PM »
Is there a reason that she needs an SUV?

She may hate your Neon, but she can't possibly hate every single car ever made.

In any case, I'd try to skew a bit older to save on insurance/gas.

For instance, I drive a 2006 Honda Civic hybrid, and it's reliable, gas-efficient and a nice (but relatively generic) looking car. Nothing goes wrong with it ever. The regular Honda Civic looks identical, but skips the hybrid battery (which I would probably do, since those old-model hybrid batteries run the risk of reaching the end of their useful life after 10 years or so, and the mileage benefit is not exciting).

As someone else said on the Fiat thread - the car you can afford is the one you can afford to pay for cash outright, wreck, and then pay for again. For you, that sounds like a $5k-$10k car. Which is easily a decent vehicle without rust. She will get a NICER vehicle by moving out of the SUV category, but I am sure she can find an SUV that isn't falling apart for $10k..

Exflyboy

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2015, 12:15:53 PM »
This is more about your Wife feeling entitled to buy the car she wants.. not what makes sense.

Personally I think a JW is a pretty poor car for most purposes.. Its slow and uses a lot of gas, not very comfortable blah blah. Its a toy car basically.

None of this is relevant of course. Your Wife feels entitled and thats what you have to deal with.. You may have to lose and buy the damn car, but I'd try to re-negotiate to a more sensible vehicle.

Does your Wife make half the income?.. Just thinking of negotiating strategies.

You need to get out of paying consumer debt.. Sounds like you have a decent stash growing.. so pay that CC off no matter what you do.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 12:22:22 PM by Exflyboy »

Stupendous

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2015, 12:32:17 PM »
How old are you? Depending on your age, $600K may be considered low depending on the quality of life you want to have when you retire. Have you showed her what your current income would be in retirement?

80Westy

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2015, 12:33:56 PM »
I forgot, her car nearly overheated 2 weeks ago b/c fan wasn't running.  Fortunately, that had happened before so I knew it was the fan solid-state "relay" because that same part caused that issue a few years back.  $50 and 30 minutes later, good as new.  Ha.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2015, 12:45:47 PM »
I forgot, her car nearly overheated 2 weeks ago b/c fan wasn't running.  Fortunately, that had happened before so I knew it was the fan solid-state "relay" because that same part caused that issue a few years back.  $50 and 30 minutes later, good as new.  Ha.

Look - I don't want to drive your wife's car, either. Seriously. How many times have you told her "good as new," only to have something else break on it within the next 30 days? You're lucky she's not running you over with it while screaming, "GOOD AS NEW! GOOD AS NEW!"

She's done with this vehicle. The only negotiating point left is how much she gets to spend on a new car. Fix the budget and let her choose what she buys with it.

chasesfish

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2015, 12:54:19 PM »
Yeah, so there's good and bad things about a Jeep Wrangler, we have a 2002 that's running strong.

If you buy a 2007 or older, it will hold its value.  They just stop depreciating after around 80k in miles and eight years of age.  It sounds like there are two legitimate issues here:

1) The current car probably needs to be replaced
2) You can't talk her out of a mid-life crisis, she must have a convertible for your marital health.

If she commutes at all for work, she'll either love the car and never get rid of it (my wife), or she will be sick of the tough ride, road noise, lack of storage space, ect after a year or two.  If you stick to a 2007 or older, you'll generally get your money back.

80Westy

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2015, 01:03:12 PM »
MrFrugalChicago, You are correct that we seem to have deeper issues.  She is not fully on board with FIRE, and thinks I save enough / too much (401 maxxed).  I did convince her to fill out the "Get a Life Tree" that was in a book mentioned on the forums to help start a discussion of what do you want.  I didn't really keep the discussion going, and after a 2 week business trip 6 weeks ago we haven't discussed it.  She is prone to depression and has seen a counselor on/off for many years, so she is definitely pro-therapy and would agree to go.  I have no intention of getting divorced over a car, so winning the battle to me is we are both happy and together, not avoiding the expense.

Another Reader, Word.  We have not discussed the actual income this stache would provide, but I agree it ain't enough at current spending levels.  One of the realizations this community has awakened in me is that my after tax saving needs a serious boost.  Yes, we have spent it all.  I get it.  I don't want it to stay that way.  I will take your advice to pay the CC.

horsepoor, I think any car I can keep running with my meager skills beats a more expensive one.  I haven't added up all that was spent recently, but it still pales next to new/nearly new.

Cpa & Happy, She want the Wrangler cause it will be fun.  Can't argue with that, although the fun to me is severely diminished in having to pay for it.  I honesty think she will drive it for a year and then realize it is not practical and doesn't change her life.  She and I are very similar, but she learns best through experiences and not persuasion.

Exflyboy,  She wants it, what can I say?  I have made all the income until recently, and still make 85%.  She did start a job recently for the first time since before DD.

Stupendous, We're both 43.  Stache should be bigger, but it is better than nothing.

Exflyboy

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2015, 01:04:55 PM »
I forgot, her car nearly overheated 2 weeks ago b/c fan wasn't running.  Fortunately, that had happened before so I knew it was the fan solid-state "relay" because that same part caused that issue a few years back.  $50 and 30 minutes later, good as new.  Ha.

Look - I don't want to drive your wife's car, either. Seriously. How many times have you told her "good as new," only to have something else break on it within the next 30 days? You're lucky she's not running you over with it while screaming, "GOOD AS NEW! GOOD AS NEW!"

She's done with this vehicle. The only negotiating point left is how much she gets to spend on a new car. Fix the budget and let her choose what she buys with it.

Yes CPAcat nailed it for me. I had the same issue. I was repairing my Wife's POS car for close to 8 years beyond its working life and while it never let her down it was pretty bad experience to drive. She put up with it until it was 20 years old and eventually had a misfire i could not trace down.

So she cried "Uncle" and we had to get a newer one.

Because I had not pushed it to the point where she wanted to run me over she was quite reasonable in looking for an alternative.

We went to the Hertz used car sales place and picked out a gorgeous Chevvy Cruze, leather interior, heated seats, all the bells and whistles, 2013 for a little over $12k.. paid cash of course.

Now we were in a somewhat better financial position than you guys are, in fact we don't even carry collision insurance on the car because we can afford to throw it away and buy another one if we had to, Plus I am pretty good at doing bodywork and repainting.

I wonder if you have pushed this to a point where your Wife has drawn the battle line and its Jeep Wrangler and nothing else will do?

Hence, renegotiating the choice of car maybe the best you can do at this point.

80Westy

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2015, 01:07:25 PM »


Look - I don't want to drive your wife's car, either. Seriously. How many times have you told her "good as new," only to have something else break on it within the next 30 days? You're lucky she's not running you over with it while screaming, "GOOD AS NEW! GOOD AS NEW!"


Thanks, Cat, that made me laugh

Indexer

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2015, 01:16:52 PM »
You want an argument not to buy the Jeep?  I think you already gave it....

Quote
Wife has always said she shouldn't have to drive a clunker/rustbucket, and her 2002 Grand Cherokee is rusting at all 4 wheel wells, has had multiple problems in last 12 months which I have fixed (battery, tires (used from CL), cam sensor, crank sensor, new radiator, tie rod end, rear U joint) and am about to fix (sway bar link, 02 sensor code, gasoline smell).  Last fall it seemed like something broke every week.  It also has a loud but fully functional alternator (been like that for years).  Yes, it is getting rough.  It brings me immense satisfaction that I have kept it running.  She is done with it.

Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge are horrible cars.  Consumer reports rates just about every car every year.  They also rate them on reliability.  They are completely unbiased, and use reviews from their own readers.  Dodge/Jeep are dead last or next to it every single year for reliability.  If your current Jeep is falling apart the dead last thing I would do is buy a new one! 

I get not buying a rust bucket.  Get a 2008 Honda Fit or something similar.  Its probably going to last longer than a 2012 Jeep anyway.

And looking at my consumer reports car guide.  According to pooled reliability reviews of people who actually drive these cars....

2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee(V6):  Worse than average.   (bad)
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee(V8): Much Worse than average.  (worst rating they give)
2012 Jeep Wrangler(2 door):  Much Worse than average(worst).
2012 Jeep Wrangler(4 door): Much Worse than average(worst).

Honda Fit:  EVERY year from 2009-2014:  Much Better than average(highest possible rating).
Hyundai Elantra: Average or better than average 2009-2014.
Mazda 3:  Better than average or much better than average 2009-2013.  Average in 2014.
Nissan Versa:  Average 2009-2014
Subaru Impreza:  Average or Better 2009-2013, Much better 2014.
Toyota (Anything):  Better than average or Much better than average.

If she doesn't want a rust bucket... then why are you looking at a Jeep?

2ndTimer

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2015, 01:19:16 PM »
I commend you on the value you are putting on your marriage.  If you can't negotiate on the car, can you negotiate on the timing?  As in I really want to you to have what you want, can we work really hard to save up the rest of the cash so we don't have to go in debt for it?  If she gets started down that road, she may find all sorts of slack in the household budget that could go toward the vehicle.  It could turn into a learning experience for her and a win/win for FIRE since she would know all these new tricks afterwards

80Westy

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2015, 01:20:28 PM »
I forgot, her car nearly overheated 2 weeks ago b/c fan wasn't running.  Fortunately, that had happened before so I knew it was the fan solid-state "relay" because that same part caused that issue a few years back.  $50 and 30 minutes later, good as new.  Ha.

Look - I don't want to drive your wife's car, either. Seriously. How many times have you told her "good as new," only to have something else break on it within the next 30 days? You're lucky she's not running you over with it while screaming, "GOOD AS NEW! GOOD AS NEW!"

She's done with this vehicle. The only negotiating point left is how much she gets to spend on a new car. Fix the budget and let her choose what she buys with it.

Yes CPAcat nailed it for me. I had the same issue. I was repairing my Wife's POS car for close to 8 years beyond its working life and while it never let her down it was pretty bad experience to drive. She put up with it until it was 20 years old and eventually had a misfire i could not trace down.

So she cried "Uncle" and we had to get a newer one.

Because I had not pushed it to the point where she wanted to run me over she was quite reasonable in looking for an alternative.

We went to the Hertz used car sales place and picked out a gorgeous Chevvy Cruze, leather interior, heated seats, all the bells and whistles, 2013 for a little over $12k.. paid cash of course.

Now we were in a somewhat better financial position than you guys are, in fact we don't even carry collision insurance on the car because we can afford to throw it away and buy another one if we had to, Plus I am pretty good at doing bodywork and repainting.

I wonder if you have pushed this to a point where your Wife has drawn the battle line and its Jeep Wrangler and nothing else will do?

Hence, renegotiating the choice of car maybe the best you can do at this point.

Exflyboy, I certainly have pushed her to keep the POS longer than she wanted.  But, the Wrangler itself is a relatively new idea of hers.  We have discussed Mazda3 hatches (I love 40 mpg, she thinks ugly), Focus hatch, a newer GC, Escape, X3 & X5 (I convinced her there was a reason that these two beautiful looking cars were only $14K, and that it was gonna cost us).  But, I think the Wrangler idea is pretty hardened now.  I can ask her about going older, but I guess we both have become convinced that these cars hold their value quite well.  The used prices certainly give that impression.

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful responses.  I have no MMM type support IRL.  Everyone I know has a NEW car and thinks I am insane.  I am, but that isn't the reason.

MikeBear

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2015, 01:22:58 PM »
Show her this thread, and let her read the replies.

If she STILL wants the jeep after doing so, there's no hope for you.

80Westy

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2015, 01:25:24 PM »
I commend you on the value you are putting on your marriage.  If you can't negotiate on the car, can you negotiate on the timing?  As in I really want to you to have what you want, can we work really hard to save up the rest of the cash so we don't have to go in debt for it?  If she gets started down that road, she may find all sorts of slack in the household budget that could go toward the vehicle.  It could turn into a learning experience for her and a win/win for FIRE since she would know all these new tricks afterwards

2ndTimer,  Thanks, I think that is an approach she may be open to.  She has accused me of blowing off her requests for a replacement, and she is right as I hoped she would get to where I am that it's just a thing and who cares?  Possibly a specific account we earmark for the purchase would give her assurance I am not blowing her off.

Peacefulwarrior

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2015, 01:33:08 PM »
Buying a 2012 Jeep Wrangler when you don't need one is a luxury. And broke people shouldn't buy luxury items. Enough said.

2ndTimer

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2015, 01:41:16 PM »
I commend you on the value you are putting on your marriage.  If you can't negotiate on the car, can you negotiate on the timing?  As in I really want to you to have what you want, can we work really hard to save up the rest of the cash so we don't have to go in debt for it?  If she gets started down that road, she may find all sorts of slack in the household budget that could go toward the vehicle.  It could turn into a learning experience for her and a win/win for FIRE since she would know all these new tricks afterwards

2ndTimer,  Thanks, I think that is an approach she may be open to.  She has accused me of blowing off her requests for a replacement, and she is right as I hoped she would get to where I am that it's just a thing and who cares?  Possibly a specific account we earmark for the purchase would give her assurance I am not blowing her off.

I think you have the beginnings of a good plan there. 

80Westy

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2015, 05:02:46 PM »
Paid the CC, and since both the funds and the debt are with the same bank, I guess we're CC debt free right now?  I am not including the other cards which are used for daily expenses but always paid at the beginning of the month.

Another Reader

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2015, 05:21:53 PM »
Good for you!  It should show as paid by Tuesday morning

Now sit down with your wife and a spreadsheet and talk about your plans for the future and how the two of you will fund them.  Go over the retirement numbers so she understands that not spending that money means she won't be living under a bridge and eating cat food when you retire.  Show her how much (or rather how little) is saved in cash for emergencies or big expenditures. 

With DD going to college, perhaps DW wants to go back to work full time to help DD pay for her education.  Maybe she would like to reconsider the car purchase, as it is not reasonable to pay the bill for college with your retirement money.  Maybe she can upgrade the car with her earnings if that is what is important to her.  There's a compromise out there somewhere, as long as both parties are willing to work to find it.

Sibley

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2015, 09:33:10 AM »
Non-mechanically inclined female here. Yes, a car is just a thing and who cares. However, that thing serves a purpose, and if it's causing stress, a safety risk, or otherwise not serving its purpose, then it's time to replace it. Who cares if you can keep patching it up so it runs? If the whole thing is falling apart, being able to fix each part as it craps out doesn't help. What happens when the wheels rust through while driving and the car body hits the ground at 60 mph? (or whatever you said about the rusty wheel thing - see my first sentence)

You hit the point of diminishing returns a long time ago. Replace the car, asap. For her physical safety. And next time, don't let it get to this point. If your punishment (and yes, consider this to be a punishment for neglecting to ensure your wife was driving a vehicle that reliably wouldn't try to kill her) is to buy a Jeep, then maybe it'll make the lesson stick. If you're lucky you can work with her to get a less expensive car.

If I were married, had a car in that condition, and my husband wouldn't agree to buying a new (to me at least) car, then I'd have to seriously think about why he didn't care about my safety. Money isn't everything, despite what sometimes comes across on the forums. If you like fixing up cars, then you can drive the falling apart POS.

DoubleDown

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2015, 10:27:08 AM »
I'm a husband. Here's how I would approach it:

Step 1. Say, "You know, I've been thinking about it, and you were right. It really is time to replace your vehicle. It's too unreliable, you've put up with repairs for a long time, and you deserve something better." [It's important to say "You were right" -- don't leave that out]

Step 2. Say, "You've said you want a 2012 Jeep Wrangler -- any reasons you want that car in particular?"

Step 3. LISTEN. Don't say a word to refute anything about the 2012 JW. Listen to everything she says, pay close attention to the reasons she gives. Instead, nod your head, and say things like, "I see" or "That makes sense." If she seems to run out of reasons, ask her "Anything else?" Then listen some more.

Step 4. After she's done giving reasons, say "Okay." Then take some time on your own to think about it. This tells her you listened and will seriously give it consideration. If she presses you to give an answer about it, tell her you'd like a little time to digest what she's said and to look for some ways to get her what she wants.

Step 5. Look around for vehicles that meet the criteria she gave you AND that are cost-effective. Come up with several options for her to consider in addition to the JW. Example: She says "reliability" is her number one concern, you find the Consumer Reports pick for the most reliable car in your price range.

Step 6. Present her with the options, and include the JW as an option. Show her the pros/cons of each vehicle and how they might meet her criteria, and of course include cost in the equation. Now, she should be seeing you as presenting an objective set of choices, not a sales pitch in favor of the car you want her to pick. LET HER MAKE THE CHOICE.

Step. 7. If she chooses the JW despite it being inferior (and more expensive) to the other choices, tell her you want to find a way for the two of you to pay for it without going into debt, decreasing your retirement savings, hampering college for your kids, etc. Ask her what she thinks you both should do -- earn extra income at a second job? Cut expenses somewhere else? Give up some other future purchase or expense like the spring break trip? Make it clear that you want to get her the vehicle she wants, but that there's no free lunch. She'll have to consider tradeoffs if she's going to pick an expensive car "just because."

mskyle

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2015, 10:57:50 AM »
You've pushed her too far and she thinks you're cheap. You needed to get her on board earlier. See if you can talk her into something more reliable and have a serious discussion about how long you will keep your current cars. But let her get the car she wants, because it sounds like she's not feeling listened-to.

Don't try to solve emotional problems with logic!

Forcus

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2015, 11:07:00 AM »
I feel for ya.

It sounds like you live in LA. Which makes a Jeep probably the worst DD one could choose... that being said, if everything else in your life is modest, it might be one of those things that you win by losing. I agree there is something deeper going on but in the grand scheme of things will this seriously damage your future plans? If not, and it won't be used as a stepping stone to increase other spending (bigger house, expensive clothes, etc.), then I would just do it.

To wit, my wife drives a sane, ~30 mpg Escape. She absolutely hates it. It's paid for, has less than 100k miles and has cost us almost nothing to own. But she ties her identity to her vehicle and to be honest I can't say I don't either. So she really wants a used 07-08 BMW 335i. They are known for fuel pump issues, they are complex vehicles, and it is really hard to find a stick that isn't black or has a black interior. I wish she would just keep her Escape but I understand and in the long run (I've run calculations) it doesn't affect our future plans. Will I want to kick it every time I walk by it, probably. Will I be annoyed when it shits expensive parts, yep. But by losing on this one she'll be a little happier and that's ok by me.

Not MMM, but as with many issues on here it is not about the money.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2015, 11:09:22 AM »
I am going to preface this by saying that I have not read any of the other responses to this thread. I am sure people are giving you a lot of great reasons to argue pissing your money away on this car.

My response is from another angle, rust.

If you are getting rust on your car now, you will flip a shit and have much mental anguish in your future going with a late model wrangler.

My father purchased a new one 6 years ago, loved the thing, drove it like any other car he's owned for the past 40+ years. Never off road, never abused etc.

The thing started rusting throughout the entire car unlike anything he has ever seen. We did some research and complained to Jeer, who did nothing about it due to the rust not yet creating full holes in the sheet metal. This is a very common problem on the newer Jeeps.

We have had in the past many MUCH older vehicles and never was excessive rust a problem, a 3-4 year old jeep was heading for the scrap yard in another 3-4 years at this pace.

He was able to dump it at slightly below fair market value and replace with a stripped down base model Subaru Forrester.

All that being said, even if the Jeep is rust proof for life, financially its a very silly move.

ambimammular

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2015, 11:37:48 AM »
Double Down, I love your respectful and reasonable approach.  I hope 80Westy's wife reacts in equal measure.

Seriously, that's some therapist-style thinking!!

jzb11

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2015, 11:52:59 AM »
I think you just need to put your foot down and say no.

With that said I think a fair compromise is getting her into a vehicle like ex fly boy mentioned from hertz or another option 2010 above.

That way you can pay with cash on hand, she gets a newer car, and everyone wins.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2015, 11:56:46 AM »
Ummmm....just say no?  Say WE cannot afford to do this right now.  How can we solve this problem together, given our financial situation?



One person cannot just say no and then phrase it as a WE.

Get rid of the first sentence, and use the other two.


"Putting your foot down" style decision making is really a poor way to go about things. It leads to resentment. She'll just stop asking you.

RunHappy

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2015, 12:36:57 PM »
I'm a husband. Here's how I would approach it:

Step 1. Say, "You know, I've been thinking about it, and you were right. It really is time to replace your vehicle. It's too unreliable, you've put up with repairs for a long time, and you deserve something better." [It's important to say "You were right" -- don't leave that out]

Step 2. Say, "You've said you want a 2012 Jeep Wrangler -- any reasons you want that car in particular?"

Step 3. LISTEN. Don't say a word to refute anything about the 2012 JW. Listen to everything she says, pay close attention to the reasons she gives. Instead, nod your head, and say things like, "I see" or "That makes sense." If she seems to run out of reasons, ask her "Anything else?" Then listen some more.

Step 4. After she's done giving reasons, say "Okay." Then take some time on your own to think about it. This tells her you listened and will seriously give it consideration. If she presses you to give an answer about it, tell her you'd like a little time to digest what she's said and to look for some ways to get her what she wants.

Step 5. Look around for vehicles that meet the criteria she gave you AND that are cost-effective. Come up with several options for her to consider in addition to the JW. Example: She says "reliability" is her number one concern, you find the Consumer Reports pick for the most reliable car in your price range.

Step 6. Present her with the options, and include the JW as an option. Show her the pros/cons of each vehicle and how they might meet her criteria, and of course include cost in the equation. Now, she should be seeing you as presenting an objective set of choices, not a sales pitch in favor of the car you want her to pick. LET HER MAKE THE CHOICE.

Step. 7. If she chooses the JW despite it being inferior (and more expensive) to the other choices, tell her you want to find a way for the two of you to pay for it without going into debt, decreasing your retirement savings, hampering college for your kids, etc. Ask her what she thinks you both should do -- earn extra income at a second job? Cut expenses somewhere else? Give up some other future purchase or expense like the spring break trip? Make it clear that you want to get her the vehicle she wants, but that there's no free lunch. She'll have to consider tradeoffs if she's going to pick an expensive car "just because."

+1  Awesome advice.   i'm going to file this away.

neo von retorch

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2015, 12:56:32 PM »
Have you shown her the CX-5? It's not ideal because they are still so new, but there are a few 2013-2014 models for sale in the $15-17k range. This isn't a huge improvement over the $20-22k you're looking at, but it's much more reliable and efficient. It might serve as a compromise between the "ugly" hatchbacks she doesn't want and the over-the-top truck beast she does want.

SantaFeSteve

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2015, 12:57:16 PM »
Pay off the credit card debt with your bonus, as planned.  Then deal with the car situation with zero consumer debt and a lot less cash on hand.

+1

Jack

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2015, 12:59:50 PM »
The new wranglers are junk in my opinion and only the rubicons are decent. Get a yj (1995) or older. They last forever and are the easiest cars to work on. I have had my '90 for 10 years and have never had to take it to the shop, and I'm no mechanic!

If you buy a 2007 or older, it will hold its value.  They just stop depreciating after around 80k in miles and eight years of age...  If you stick to a 2007 or older, you'll generally get your money back.

+1 to both.

math-ya, I don't think I can talk to her about replacing a 2002 with a 1995 or older. 

Find a really good one (low miles, excellent condition) and tell her it's a classic.

I bought myself a 25-year-old Miata, and ended up with a much better one than I was planning to get (I was looking for a $2000 beater, but ended up with a $3500 creampuff that only has 80K miles and was kept in a garage it's whole life). It was too good to pass up, and I'm consistently amazed at how good it is. It looks, and drives, like it would have done when it rolled off the showroom floor. As far as I'm concerned, I have basically a brand-new car at 1/10th the cost!

Actually, it's even less than 1/10th the cost, because as long as I don't wreck it or something it'll probably still be worth at least $3500 when I eventually sell it.

The point is, find her an old Jeep like that.

I commend you on the value you are putting on your marriage.  If you can't negotiate on the car, can you negotiate on the timing?  As in I really want to you to have what you want, can we work really hard to save up the rest of the cash so we don't have to go in debt for it?  If she gets started down that road, she may find all sorts of slack in the household budget that could go toward the vehicle.  It could turn into a learning experience for her and a win/win for FIRE since she would know all these new tricks afterwards

2ndTimer,  Thanks, I think that is an approach she may be open to.  She has accused me of blowing off her requests for a replacement, and she is right as I hoped she would get to where I am that it's just a thing and who cares?  Possibly a specific account we earmark for the purchase would give her assurance I am not blowing her off.

By the way, a really good old car can take time to find. You might spend months, or even years, looking for exactly the right one... which (in a sneaky way) is good for your finances. ; )

But as long as you're actively looking, she can't complain too much, right?

lifejoy

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2015, 01:13:42 PM »
I'm a husband. Here's how I would approach it:

Step 1. Say, "You know, I've been thinking about it, and you were right. It really is time to replace your vehicle. It's too unreliable, you've put up with repairs for a long time, and you deserve something better." [It's important to say "You were right" -- don't leave that out]

Step 2. Say, "You've said you want a 2012 Jeep Wrangler -- any reasons you want that car in particular?"

Step 3. LISTEN. Don't say a word to refute anything about the 2012 JW. Listen to everything she says, pay close attention to the reasons she gives. Instead, nod your head, and say things like, "I see" or "That makes sense." If she seems to run out of reasons, ask her "Anything else?" Then listen some more.

Step 4. After she's done giving reasons, say "Okay." Then take some time on your own to think about it. This tells her you listened and will seriously give it consideration. If she presses you to give an answer about it, tell her you'd like a little time to digest what she's said and to look for some ways to get her what she wants.

Step 5. Look around for vehicles that meet the criteria she gave you AND that are cost-effective. Come up with several options for her to consider in addition to the JW. Example: She says "reliability" is her number one concern, you find the Consumer Reports pick for the most reliable car in your price range.

Step 6. Present her with the options, and include the JW as an option. Show her the pros/cons of each vehicle and how they might meet her criteria, and of course include cost in the equation. Now, she should be seeing you as presenting an objective set of choices, not a sales pitch in favor of the car you want her to pick. LET HER MAKE THE CHOICE.

Step. 7. If she chooses the JW despite it being inferior (and more expensive) to the other choices, tell her you want to find a way for the two of you to pay for it without going into debt, decreasing your retirement savings, hampering college for your kids, etc. Ask her what she thinks you both should do -- earn extra income at a second job? Cut expenses somewhere else? Give up some other future purchase or expense like the spring break trip? Make it clear that you want to get her the vehicle she wants, but that there's no free lunch. She'll have to consider tradeoffs if she's going to pick an expensive car "just because."

+1  Awesome advice.   i'm going to file this away.

Me, too!

Static Void

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2015, 01:16:24 PM »

Step 1. Say, "You know, I've been thinking about it, and you were right. It really is time to replace your vehicle. It's too unreliable, you've put up with repairs for a long time, and you deserve something better." [It's important to say "You were right" -- don't leave that out]

Step 2. Say, "You've said you want a 2012 Jeep Wrangler -- any reasons you want that car in particular?"

Step 3. LISTEN. Don't say a word to refute anything about the 2012 JW. Listen to everything she says, pay close attention to the reasons she gives. Instead, nod your head, and say things like, "I see" or "That makes sense." If she seems to run out of reasons, ask her "Anything else?" Then listen some more.

Step 4. After she's done giving reasons, say "Okay." Then take some time on your own to think about it. This tells her you listened and will seriously give it consideration. If she presses you to give an answer about it, tell her you'd like a little time to digest what she's said and to look for some ways to get her what she wants.

Step 5. Look around for vehicles that meet the criteria she gave you AND that are cost-effective. Come up with several options for her to consider in addition to the JW. Example: She says "reliability" is her number one concern, you find the Consumer Reports pick for the most reliable car in your price range.

Step 6. Present her with the options, and include the JW as an option. Show her the pros/cons of each vehicle and how they might meet her criteria, and of course include cost in the equation. Now, she should be seeing you as presenting an objective set of choices, not a sales pitch in favor of the car you want her to pick. LET HER MAKE THE CHOICE.

Step. 7. If she chooses the JW despite it being inferior (and more expensive) to the other choices, tell her you want to find a way for the two of you to pay for it without going into debt, decreasing your retirement savings, hampering college for your kids, etc. Ask her what she thinks you both should do -- earn extra income at a second job? Cut expenses somewhere else? Give up some other future purchase or expense like the spring break trip? Make it clear that you want to get her the vehicle she wants, but that there's no free lunch. She'll have to consider tradeoffs if she's going to pick an expensive car "just because."

(I was going to trim the quote, but, nah.)

I'm joining the DoubleDown fan club too. Awe-inspiring Jedi mind-control (of self, not others).

couponvan

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2015, 01:30:16 PM »
80Westy - $600k saved in retirement funds at 43 years of age is commendable.  You are not broke.  Heck, it may have been a financial aid strategy to maximize college funding.  Aggressively pay down mortgage and 401(k) money doesn't count in the calculations.  Now that money left untouched should continue to grow and support you well in retirement. 

I think in the overall scheme, the car is only an issue because of college costs and the plan to tap an IRA to pay for it. DW might be able to work more to help DD with college costs and fund her car.  Right now, I am debating whether my clown car is worth working for - DH wanted it, but I would rather not pay for it.  She may live to regret it. I still have my old minivan, and the guys at the dealership couldn't figure out why I was so attached to it.  For $3k trade in, I am keeping my options open.

We normally have very little liquid investments outside of 401(k)s, IRA and Roth IRAs.

ETA:  This month we have a bunch of cash from DH's annual bonus, but we are debating whether to pay off the mortgage on our 2nd property or replace the roof and do some additional rehab work. I vote for pay off the mortgage, DH votes for the roof and rehab.  We will likely meet in the middle with 50% payoff and only fixing the roof....hopefully your wife will meet in the middle and do a 2008-2009 Wrangler.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 02:11:07 PM by couponvan »

neo von retorch

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2015, 02:33:52 PM »
Off topic - ETA (??) Lately I've seen this in forum threads. I tried to google what it means but I couldn't find it. Can someone end my suffering, please?
ETA: Some improved Google queries landed me the answer... "Edited To Add"
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 02:35:31 PM by neogodless »

seattleite

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2015, 03:23:02 PM »
Step. 7. If she chooses the JW despite it being inferior (and more expensive) to the other choices, tell her you want to find a way for the two of you to pay for it without going into debt, decreasing your retirement savings, hampering college for your kids, etc. Ask her what she thinks you both should do -- earn extra income at a second job? Cut expenses somewhere else? Give up some other future purchase or expense like the spring break trip? Make it clear that you want to get her the vehicle she wants, but that there's no free lunch. She'll have to consider tradeoffs if she's going to pick an expensive car "just because."

I came here to say exactly this.

What would be awesome is for you to be able to give up something together as a way to pay for her new car. Cancel the spring break trip. Sell your house and buy a smaller one. Put a moratorium on buying new clothes for a couple years. Do you have an expensive hobby that you can put a break on for a few years?

Don't make it about you vs her. Show her that you are willing to give up something of your own for her, but you aren't willing to give up spending time with her while happily retired.

use2betrix

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2015, 03:25:33 PM »
Has anyone in this thread ever actually owned a Jeep?

While I understand this is a finance site, a MMM finance site at that, I have yet to see a single person mention the "fun factor" involved in a Jeep Wrangler.

There are NO other SUV's on the job market that you can take the top off, let alone the doors. No top and no doors is a blast. It's like the closest thing to being on a motorcycle, without being on a motorcycle.

People do not buy Jeeps for the fuel mileage, or because of their rough ride, they buy them for their offroad capability (which the wife likely won't utilize) and mostly for the capabilities of losing the top and doors, which I would imagine is what she is after.

I understand the OP's reasoning for not being able to afford it. Makes total sense to me. However, coming from someone who has owned 2 Jeeps and 3 motorcycles, I certainly see where she is coming from as well.


I would just bet, that if you ask her why she wants it, she will say because of the removable top. Not many people take the doors off (some don't even know, I took mine off a ton) but the removable top is huge.

Here is the compromise I would make. I would look for a reliable convertible. Something like a Toyota Solara. Toyota is reliable and it is a convertible. I'd look for something similar to that. My parents are super thrifty, MMM nearly. They love their convertible. They put well over 200k on their Chrysler Sebring, and now have a v6 mustang that they love as well. Their mustang gets close to 30mpg on the highway.

Like I said, I see where the other posters from the 100% PURELY financial spectrum, however I think some people could broaden their spectrum a little bit to see the "fun factor" involved in a Jeep.

Suzuki Sidekicks have/had removable tops I believe and are small SUV's? Good gas mileage, reliable. But they haven't made them in some time. Could be a compromise as well?

JLee

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2015, 03:58:21 PM »
Has anyone in this thread ever actually owned a Jeep?

While I understand this is a finance site, a MMM finance site at that, I have yet to see a single person mention the "fun factor" involved in a Jeep Wrangler.

There are NO other SUV's on the job market that you can take the top off, let alone the doors. No top and no doors is a blast. It's like the closest thing to being on a motorcycle, without being on a motorcycle.

People do not buy Jeeps for the fuel mileage, or because of their rough ride, they buy them for their offroad capability (which the wife likely won't utilize) and mostly for the capabilities of losing the top and doors, which I would imagine is what she is after.

I understand the OP's reasoning for not being able to afford it. Makes total sense to me. However, coming from someone who has owned 2 Jeeps and 3 motorcycles, I certainly see where she is coming from as well.


I would just bet, that if you ask her why she wants it, she will say because of the removable top. Not many people take the doors off (some don't even know, I took mine off a ton) but the removable top is huge.

Here is the compromise I would make. I would look for a reliable convertible. Something like a Toyota Solara. Toyota is reliable and it is a convertible. I'd look for something similar to that. My parents are super thrifty, MMM nearly. They love their convertible. They put well over 200k on their Chrysler Sebring, and now have a v6 mustang that they love as well. Their mustang gets close to 30mpg on the highway.

Like I said, I see where the other posters from the 100% PURELY financial spectrum, however I think some people could broaden their spectrum a little bit to see the "fun factor" involved in a Jeep.

Suzuki Sidekicks have/had removable tops I believe and are small SUV's? Good gas mileage, reliable. But they haven't made them in some time. Could be a compromise as well?

My roommate has one, lifted on 35's. It's a great rock rig, but it seems something's getting fixed every few weeks... It's a shitty commuter, so he drives a $1500 Saturn to work. If the OP's wife doesn't plan on going offroad, I'd agree that a Wrangler isn't the way to go. If it'll get dirty, then sure - I could see that.

I also understand not wanting something that always needs work. I recently sold my offroad truck (80 series Landcruiser with 213k) and my daily driver ('99 Tacoma with 283k) to get something a bit newer (07, 103k). Was it more expensive? Yup. Was it worth it? To some, no. To me, yes, because now I don't always have something that needs tweaking. :)

I used a basic decision matrix to help determine which route I should go. It landed on the route that I took, and I have no regrets.
http://asq.org/learn-about-quality/decision-making-tools/overview/decision-matrix.html

dunhamjr

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Re: Help me deal with impending insane purchase
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2015, 04:30:16 PM »
Is there any way or any reason you cannot at least try to steer her into a 2009/2010 model?

Wranglers have looked nearly the same since the 70's ;), so from a fashion perspective it shouldnt matter.
The engines might be a little different.  The interior might not be quite as shiny. 

But truthfully going from a JGC to a JW, it doesnt sound like the wifey is worried about luxury too much.