Author Topic: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)  (Read 1758 times)

Linea_Norway

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Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« on: November 18, 2019, 05:47:03 AM »
I am sorry if I asked this before, but I couldn't find a thread I created. It might have been mentioned partly in other threads or my own journal. Now I create a dedicated subject for our situation, as we still haven't decided and I would appreciate more points of view than our own.

Our situation is that we have a 10 year old Subaru Outback on diesel (195.000 km) and an 18 year old, small Suzuki on petrol  (110.000 km).

We currently live on a hill where we need 4x4 to get up in the winter. Both our cars have that. The house is on sale and we don't know yet where we will end up living after this. Probably not at an equally steep hill. But still in Norway with lots of winter weather.
We also own a cabin that is 150-200 meters from away the parking place and the parking place has no electricity. The village where that cabin is, also doesn't have a fast charger. The nearest fast charger is about an hour driving and we pass that charger on our way there.

Our typical car usage is either very local (like 20-50 km trips). Or very long: 380 km one way to our cabin, 2000 km round trip to visit relatives abroad, up to 6000 km round trip up to north Norway for summer vacations. We do local trips very often (3-10 times per week) and long trips once a month or so. On long trips, we often bring along a shitload of camping stuff. For this, we prefer to have a station car. Maybe a car with a roof box would also work.
We sometimes use a trailer, especially when we sell a house or move.

We could like to drive more electrical (my country has a lot of water generated clean energy). And I also generally prefer 4x4 cars as they don't get stuck so easily in winter time. I want a fuel efficient car, not a 4x4 square car.

Norway has made EVs very attractive, as you don't pay VAT and don't pay the approx 600$ registration fee when you buy a car and you don't pay the yearly 350$ fee for having the car on the road. The tax advantages for EVs might disappear after 2020, we don't know yet.

We don't feel like buying a Tesla. We know that Tesla model 3 would be a good, affordable alternative with 4x4 and optimal distance per battery size. Only, Tesla has produced so many Monday morning cars in the later years because of lacking quality control. They have very long waiting time on repairs in Norway. And when you need to replace e.g. a window, you need to do it at Tesla, and can't go to a general window repair shop. We are just become a bit skeptic towards that brand. We also don't want to spend a fortune on a new electric car. That disqualifies cars like the Jaguar iPace.

Soon we will stop working and we think we could manage living with only 1 car, like we did for many years. We are in doubt between the following scenarios:

Replace both cars with one plugin Hybrid car, a used Mitshubishi Outlander PHEV 2018 model that had 7 years of guarantee when new.
Pros:
- Allround car, no worries about charging at cabin or during long trips.
- Can drive electric on most local trips. Has lower fuel consumption than fossile fuel car during petrol driving.
- Has 4x4 and can pull a trailer.
- Has enough space to take along our stuff during vacations.
- Still 5 years of guarantee.
- Only one car to take care of. Only one insurance.
Cons:
- The car is not very streamlined compared to the best EVs.
- The use of petrol during long trips is expensive.
- Does not get the tax advantages of EVs.
- When driving on petrol, the car pulls along a heavy battery. Smaller petrol tank than normal fossile fuel car.
- Less good conscience.

Replace both cars with one reasonably priced new EV, for example the new Scoda Vision iV that is supposed to come in 2020.
Pros:
- Has 4x4.
- Reasonably long driving distance on full battery in summer time, ca 500 km.
- Tax advantages
- Cheaper and cleaner energy on all trips.
- Car is very streamlined, designed for low energy use.
- Good conscience.
- New car means 5-7 years of guarantee.
Cons:
- Need to let an electrician install a good quality electricity outlet with lock at our cabin's parking place. Or be able to use someone else's. Not sure if they want to install it over such a long distance.
- More planning around loading stations during long trips. There are popping up more and more loading stations.
- Loading stations can have queues, especially for non-Tesla cars. Loading takes generally half an hour. Sometimes there is a 1,5 hour queue. We as retirees might not be so effected, as we will avoid the typical rush hours.
- It is probably smaller than our current station car, but might be big enough for our use.
- Not sure it can pull a trailer. But maybe we could swap cars with someone else on those few occasions we need a trailer. We might need a trailer regularly in the next year.

Replace only the Suzuki with a cheap, used EV, like a Nissan Leave and keep the Subaru.
Pros:
- All local trips can be done with the EV, but diesel car available for the long trips.
- Car for trailer pulling available.
- Cheapest alternative. You can get a used Nissan Leave very cheaply. And other Nissan Leave owners like that car a lot.
- Two cars available for the times when that is practical (one in repair).
Cons:
- The Subaru could become rusty of little use by the time you need it.
- Need to store two cars, two sets of tires, buy two insurances. Currently not a problem, but we don't know if our future house will have a double garage or enough parking space.
- An EV without 4x4 needs to wait until we have moved away from our current home. I really hope to sell it before next winter.
- The Nissan Leave is probably a bit small for DH's very long CC skis. We would need to install something on the roof for the skis.

Replace both cars with a not-plugin hybrid
Pros
- Can buy a (used) 4x4 station car, lots of choice.
- Can pull trailer.
- Lower fuel usage than normal fossile fuel car, as it changes while driving downhill.
Cons:
- No whole electric driving.
- No tax advantages
- No good conscience
- This type of car might become unattractive in future, like our diesel car is now. Low resale value.

What is your advice or input? @habaneroNorway @gaja or others?

habaneroNorway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2019, 06:20:46 AM »
As long as you can travel off-peak hours and generally not be in a hurry you would probably be ok with any long-range EV. But charging stations are quite scarce in the northernmost part of Norway if that's somewhere you go often. It is also quite expensive to use the public charging stations - it can be significantly more expensive than using petrol/diesel on road trips.

I did the maths on my car now - it's an almost 5 years old Tesla Model S with 85kWh battery and 4x4. I could probably sell it for ~500k at mom. It comes out as comparable to buy a used car for around 200k when factoring in all the costs (deprecation, tires, fuel, toll roads, insurance, annual road tax etc). The unkown is the cost when it's no longer under warranty - expensive repairs can tip the balance.

If I didn't live in Oslo it would look different - we save about 10k NOK / year on toll roads, of which most in and around Oslo but also on road trips - we drive E6 north quite often and that costs lik 300 per trip round trip. Insurance is quite expensive, but partly offset by the 3k annual road tax difference. Fuel is way cheaper of course, and I have "free, forever" so I don't pay to use Tesla's charging network which is by far the best there is.

I don't need to be able to pull a trailer. I thought I did, but I really don't. With the rooftop box it can transport serious amounts of cargo.

The cabin thing can turn out very expensive. Long runs require heavier wire which costs significantly more. If the run is very long (like 50 meters+) the voltage drop can be so significant the car won't charge and you will need thicker wire with less resistance to maintain the voltage. Call an electrician to get a ballpark beforehand to avoid any surprises (it's likely you will be surprised, but then at least you know before deciding...). The cable might also have to be dug down to a certain depth which will cost money as well.


Linea_Norway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2019, 06:35:53 AM »
As long as you can travel off-peak hours and generally not be in a hurry you would probably be ok with any long-range EV. But charging stations are quite scarce in the northernmost part of Norway if that's somewhere you go often. It is also quite expensive to use the public charging stations - it can be significantly more expensive than using petrol/diesel on road trips.

I did the maths on my car now - it's an almost 5 years old Tesla Model S with 85kWh battery and 4x4. I could probably sell it for ~500k at mom. It comes out as comparable to buy a used car for around 200k when factoring in all the costs (deprecation, tires, fuel, toll roads, insurance, annual road tax etc). The unkown is the cost when it's no longer under warranty - expensive repairs can tip the balance.

If I didn't live in Oslo it would look different - we save about 10k NOK / year on toll roads, of which most in and around Oslo but also on road trips - we drive E6 north quite often and that costs lik 300 per trip round trip. Insurance is quite expensive, but partly offset by the 3k annual road tax difference. Fuel is way cheaper of course, and I have "free, forever" so I don't pay to use Tesla's charging network which is by far the best there is.

I don't need to be able to pull a trailer. I thought I did, but I really don't. With the rooftop box it can transport serious amounts of cargo.

The cabin thing can turn out very expensive. Long runs require heavier wire which costs significantly more. If the run is very long (like 50 meters+) the voltage drop can be so significant the car won't charge and you will need thicker wire with less resistance to maintain the voltage. Call an electrician to get a ballpark beforehand to avoid any surprises (it's likely you will be surprised, but then at least you know before deciding...). The cable might also have to be dug down to a certain depth which will cost money as well.

We will most likely move out of the Oslo region and into the country. Maybe to Trøndelag and maybe not so very central. We spend a lot of time up in the north, as we like it there in summer times. We typically do drive the E6 regularly.

Your deal with "Tesla free forever" was of course the best deal ever for long trips. In our case, we would have to charge at home or public, or at camp sites over night.

For the cabin, maybe we could build a new outlet at someone else's house. There is a farm close by, maybe we can make a deal with them. I will talk to an electrician. I just remembered we have a couple of electricians at work I could ask for an advice. The frost free depth is pretty deep in that area.

But with your comments, buying a hybrid, or keeping the Subaru for long trips and an EV for short trips sound like the better alternatives.

trollwithamustache

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2019, 10:07:45 AM »
What are the economics on renting cars over there for long trips/times you need a bigger vehicle?

Linea_Norway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2019, 10:57:51 AM »
What are the economics on renting cars over there for long trips/times you need a bigger vehicle?

About 430 euro for 2 weeks, from Rent a Wreck which I hope is the cheapest.
The negative part of renting a car, is that you often need to collect it some place else and need to plan ahead. We like to have spontaneous trips.

I also know myself. If I need to pay extra, I won't hire a rental car. Then I rather don't go on that trip.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 11:00:52 AM by Linea_Norway »

habaneroNorway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2019, 11:00:42 AM »
What are the economics on renting cars over there for long trips/times you need a bigger vehicle?

I have looked into it - the idea was to have a small, cheap EV for local trips and then rent a larger car for road trips. It didn't really produce any savings to speak of. It ends up being very sensitive to number of trips per year, not distance driven. As we go to cabins we drive longer than small-cheap-EV-range quite often and also in winter when range becomes significantly lower. I found break-even at around 4-5 trips to cabin / year (we do more) + one 2-week rental in the summer. The flexibility is also much lower and if you move out of a city it can be hard just to get a rental as they don't have lots of shops.

I live in the capital and there are good options for being member of a carpool where you can rent a car matching your needs if it's a getaway for 2 people to a large estate wagon for a family or a transporter if moving or hauling stuff. It works well if you don't need it too often and not stay away too long. When we go to the cabin in the winter for a school holiday we are away for a week but distance driven round-trip is only about 300 miles so it becomes very expensive per mile as it's billed per day + some for distance.

All in all I concluded that the best option for us is to have one large car covering all bases for us. I have a fancypants Telsa Model S because it's the only electric that does cover all bases for us and the incentives for EVs are massive in Norway and regular cars + fuel are stupid expensive and electricity is quite cheap. And I bought it befor reading this forum;) The total cost of ownership for a Tesla Model S is comparable to say a Volkswagen passat or similar family car give or take some so it kind of makes somewhat sense despite being a fancy car.

gaja

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2019, 12:01:04 PM »
Are you sure you *need* the 4x4 and the ability to pull a trailer? I hear a lot of people saying that type of stuff, but I am having trouble empathising. I have lived on top of a mountain in a snowy and icy area, used to regularly drive Ørnesvingane in Geiranger in wintertime, and never had 4x4. The first car I had was a Toyota carina without servo steering or traction control. We had to put a couple of sandbags in the trunk in winter time, but with that and good tyres, we have been able to drive everywhere. And with an EV, it got much easier, since the weigth is better distributed and you have better control of the speed when there are no gears to worry about. For the trailer part; I get it if it is a camping trailer, but otherwise? Do you really need to bring so much stuff? If you do; just rent out your car on nabobil.no, and spend the money on renting a truck the few times you need it.

We have two EVs; a Nissan eNV200 and a Tesla S. Both are first gen. The Nissan is for enthusiasts, especially if you travel in the far north. But I think you are wrong about the Tesla. We have had our issues; it is a 2013 with over 200 000 km. All the wear and tear is starting to show, and we have had to pay to get new break pads and stuff like that. But even with that age and milage, a surprisingly large part of the repairs have been on warranty. We were struck by the long waiting times last spring, but got a refurbished battery on warranty out of it. Tesla have built a massive number of repair shops, and the waiting lists are gone now. The other day, when it started showing error codes, it took them less than a week to bring it in, change all the brakes, and switch out the drive unit and a lot of other stuff. What we have paid in repairs over the last few years is substantially less than for fossil fuelled cars with similar milage. And the money you save on fuel, oil, toll roads, ferries, etc, adds up very fast. When our Tesla was waiting for repair last summer, we got a fossil fuelled car, and it was shocking how expensive everything was.

The Tesla charging network is gold, and saves us a lot of hassle on road trips. I have never had any big issues with charging queues in Norway, and don't think I have ever waited more than 10 minutes. There are so many chargers now, that if there is a long line you just go to the next place. In the far north there are less chargers, but also far less EVs, so waiting time is not an issue there either. Also, the pricing structure and peer pressure ensures that noone hogs the chargers here very long. This is a much bigger challenge in parts of Europe where the chargers are free, or where they pay per kWh or by session. If you buy a second hand Tesla from 2013-2014, you get grandfathered into the free charging for life-scheme.

I know I sound like I'm selling Teslas, but honestly; I don't really like the car. I by far prefer driving my Nissan eNV200. The Tesla feels like driving a big sofa, it is a hassle to park, and there are all these fancy controls and stuff. But you are looking for a big car, and you need the range. So for you, I think the Tesla is a good deal. You can get them for less than 300 000 NOK now (~30 000 Euro). This, for instance, has already had all the normal wear and tear replaced: https://www.finn.no/car/used/ad.html?finnkode=161741332

gaja

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2019, 12:16:31 PM »
For other alternatives: The taxi company in Fredrikstad are currently testing Kia eNiro, and are very happy. It is quite large, and they are able to fit a wheelchair in the trunk. Also, it is fuel efficient, compared to many other EVs (eg the Jaguar and Tesla). A coworker of mine recently got a Hyundai Kona, and is very happy. Neither of these can pull a trailer. The new Skoda might not be a bad option, but I don't know a lot about it yet. It probably has a lot in common with the Audi, and my gut says that means you will have a realtively high energy consumption. But my gut has been wrong before.

The old Leafs are decent and well tested cars, but the range is a limit. And for the newer leafs with larger battery, there is a reason people are talking about the scandal "charge-gate". Nissan tried to save money, and have not added cooling to the larger battery packs. The feedback I'm hearing from experienced EV drivers, is that they are hating the car, since they can't use it more than one rapid charge per day. After that, the battery gets so warm that the car will only accept trickle charge.

All evs that can pull trailers: https://www.elbil24.no/nyheter/her-er-elbilene-med-hengerfeste/70564259
All evs on the norwegian market now: https://elbil.no/om-elbil/elbiler-idag/

habaneroNorway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2019, 12:34:37 PM »
I think a 4x4 is very handy in Norway. It costs a bit extra, but it also makes the resell value better as a lot of people prefer 4x4. I have a slightly odd take on it, however, where it is the most handy is the places people don't think about. Driving on roads and to the cabin in the winter is normally not an issue - the snow is removed and main roads are salted. But if you are doing stuff like parallel parking in the city, maybe have a steep driveway (my in-laws have, and we visit often) a 4x4 might be a lot better. I've never had a RWD Tesla, but according to those who have it's shockingly good in winter conditions.

Im baffled by how many norwegians are obsessed with being able to pull a trailer. Yes, its very handy if renovating the house etc, but it's generally not something you need every day and it's most likely possible to borrow from a friend or a neighbor. I have "trailer service" maybe twice a year (FIL does it for me) but even without that option it would be solvable by other means.

Unless you really drive a lot the "free forever" isn't worth that much money. I've not done the exact math on it, but it adds up to maybe 1-2k per year maximum.  For newer cars Tesla bill charging at a bit more than domestic charging, but nothing like the other fast charges available. I use the superchargers less than once per month, but they get heavy use when we go on summer holiday in Norway. Apart from that I charge at home or at the cabin. But it depends on how much, how long per trip and where you drive.

I would seriously consider a used model S. You need the panoramic glass roof to be able to attach a ski box etc and you won't get the trailer option, but trailer is likely to be less important than you think.

If I had known what I now know I would have bought a smaller battery pack (mine is 85kWh). With my use I just don't need it and it is not worth the extra cost.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2019, 02:02:37 PM »
The ability to pull a trailer is optional, as we don't do that often. We could rent a car or a van for these occasions.
The 4x4 is vital where we currently live. There are many cars without 4x4 in our neighbourhood and they are always stuck in the snow when the snow is heavy. I don't want to be one of them. My neighbour with Tesla earlier had to use improvised robe snowchains to get up, before he got himself a Tesla with 4x4.
When we sell the house and move out, the 4x4 is not equally important, but nice to have. Before we had 4x4 we sometimes got stuck and that is annoying. If we don't need 4x4, there is a lot more choice in EVs.

Good to know that Tesla has solved their queue problems. Then we could look at a new or newish Tesla 3. I think we would like a car that is newer than 2013.
About that Nissan Leave, that was only meant for local use, so no fast charging at all. And keep another car beside it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 11:10:29 PM by Linea_Norway »

habaneroNorway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2019, 02:27:12 PM »
Having 2 cars is quite expensive as the fixed costs add up even if it isn't used much. Deprecation, capital cost, insurance, annual road tax, bi-annual service (normally required for the warranty to be vaild) adds up to a fair bit so having one more expensive car covering all needs might end up cheaper. In the countryside 2 cars are quite common as it can be impossible to get anywhere without a car. Another plus with Tesla is that no regular service is required. They have now dropped the service intervals completely for Model S and they were never compulsory to start with. Dont know about the Model 3.

How much do you drive per year? The economics of an EV is better the more you drive - We don't really drive very much, maybe 12-13k per year so in that respect I find the car I have to be way too fancy and would ideally have something much cheaper.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 02:31:22 PM by habaneroNorway »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2019, 02:40:03 PM »
I am sorry if I asked this before, but I couldn't find a thread I created. It might have been mentioned partly in other threads or my own journal. Now I create a dedicated subject for our situation, as we still haven't decided and I would appreciate more points of view than our own.

Our situation is that we have a 10 year old Subaru Outback on diesel (195.000 km) and an 18 year old, small Suzuki on petrol  (110.000 km).

We currently live on a hill where we need 4x4 to get up in the winter. Both our cars have that. The house is on sale and we don't know yet where we will end up living after this. Probably not at an equally steep hill. But still in Norway with lots of winter weather.
We also own a cabin that is 150-200 meters from away the parking place and the parking place has no electricity. The village where that cabin is, also doesn't have a fast charger. The nearest fast charger is about an hour driving and we pass that charger on our way there.

Our typical car usage is either very local (like 20-50 km trips). Or very long: 380 km one way to our cabin, 2000 km round trip to visit relatives abroad, up to 6000 km round trip up to north Norway for summer vacations. We do local trips very often (3-10 times per week) and long trips once a month or so. On long trips, we often bring along a shitload of camping stuff. For this, we prefer to have a station car. Maybe a car with a roof box would also work.
We sometimes use a trailer, especially when we sell a house or move.

We could like to drive more electrical (my country has a lot of water generated clean energy). And I also generally prefer 4x4 cars as they don't get stuck so easily in winter time. I want a fuel efficient car, not a 4x4 square car.

Norway has made EVs very attractive, as you don't pay VAT and don't pay the approx 600$ registration fee when you buy a car and you don't pay the yearly 350$ fee for having the car on the road. The tax advantages for EVs might disappear after 2020, we don't know yet.

We don't feel like buying a Tesla. We know that Tesla model 3 would be a good, affordable alternative with 4x4 and optimal distance per battery size. Only, Tesla has produced so many Monday morning cars in the later years because of lacking quality control. They have very long waiting time on repairs in Norway. And when you need to replace e.g. a window, you need to do it at Tesla, and can't go to a general window repair shop. We are just become a bit skeptic towards that brand. We also don't want to spend a fortune on a new electric car. That disqualifies cars like the Jaguar iPace.

Soon we will stop working and we think we could manage living with only 1 car, like we did for many years. We are in doubt between the following scenarios:

Replace both cars with one plugin Hybrid car, a used Mitshubishi Outlander PHEV 2018 model that had 7 years of guarantee when new.
Pros:
- Allround car, no worries about charging at cabin or during long trips.
- Can drive electric on most local trips. Has lower fuel consumption than fossile fuel car during petrol driving.
- Has 4x4 and can pull a trailer.
- Has enough space to take along our stuff during vacations.
- Still 5 years of guarantee.
- Only one car to take care of. Only one insurance.
Cons:
- The car is not very streamlined compared to the best EVs.
- The use of petrol during long trips is expensive.
- Does not get the tax advantages of EVs.
- When driving on petrol, the car pulls along a heavy battery. Smaller petrol tank than normal fossile fuel car.
- Less good conscience.

Replace both cars with one reasonably priced new EV, for example the new Scoda Vision iV that is supposed to come in 2020.
Pros:
- Has 4x4.
- Reasonably long driving distance on full battery in summer time, ca 500 km.
- Tax advantages
- Cheaper and cleaner energy on all trips.
- Car is very streamlined, designed for low energy use.
- Good conscience.
- New car means 5-7 years of guarantee.
Cons:
- Need to let an electrician install a good quality electricity outlet with lock at our cabin's parking place. Or be able to use someone else's. Not sure if they want to install it over such a long distance.
- More planning around loading stations during long trips. There are popping up more and more loading stations.
- Loading stations can have queues, especially for non-Tesla cars. Loading takes generally half an hour. Sometimes there is a 1,5 hour queue. We as retirees might not be so effected, as we will avoid the typical rush hours.
- It is probably smaller than our current station car, but might be big enough for our use.
- Not sure it can pull a trailer. But maybe we could swap cars with someone else on those few occasions we need a trailer. We might need a trailer regularly in the next year.

Replace only the Suzuki with a cheap, used EV, like a Nissan Leave and keep the Subaru.
Pros:
- All local trips can be done with the EV, but diesel car available for the long trips.
- Car for trailer pulling available.
- Cheapest alternative. You can get a used Nissan Leave very cheaply. And other Nissan Leave owners like that car a lot.
- Two cars available for the times when that is practical (one in repair).
Cons:
- The Subaru could become rusty of little use by the time you need it.
- Need to store two cars, two sets of tires, buy two insurances. Currently not a problem, but we don't know if our future house will have a double garage or enough parking space.
- An EV without 4x4 needs to wait until we have moved away from our current home. I really hope to sell it before next winter.
- The Nissan Leave is probably a bit small for DH's very long CC skis. We would need to install something on the roof for the skis.

Replace both cars with a not-plugin hybrid
Pros
- Can buy a (used) 4x4 station car, lots of choice.
- Can pull trailer.
- Lower fuel usage than normal fossile fuel car, as it changes while driving downhill.
Cons:
- No whole electric driving.
- No tax advantages
- No good conscience
- This type of car might become unattractive in future, like our diesel car is now. Low resale value.

What is your advice or input? @habaneroNorway @gaja or others?

I prefer  and recommend the versatility  of a hybrid.

2 friends have and like them.

Presently, I do not have one.

Where I live I would never have an all-electric car because if there were prolonged power outages,
planned or unplanned, during a wildfire I may not be able to charge my car's battery.

If ordered to evacuate I want the peace of mind of knowing I've got the reliability of a gasoline-powered hybrid.

Where it's very cold a  battery will be "used up" faster than where it's warm.

Where you live it's very cold which will substantially reduce the range of an all-electric car so I think you should purchase a hybrid for its enhanced reliability and range.




« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 02:51:15 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

habaneroNorway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2019, 02:55:04 PM »
Where it's very cold a  battery will be "used up" faster than where it's warm.

Where you live it's very cold which will substantially reduce the range of an all-electric car so I think you should purchase a hybrid for its enhanced reliability and range.

Norway has the world's highest density of EVs so the concept is well tested over here. If you have a long-range EV, range is not really an issue. I can drive 250 miles in the summer and ~190-200 in the winter before I need charging and this is much longer than the distance between any 2 Tesla superchargers in most of Norway. The infrastructure for EVs is very good here. And we don't really have wildfires or similar and power outrages are extremely rare, at least one lasting for a long time. The most likely natural disasters here are road blocks due to snow avalanche, a landslide due to heavy rainfall or a hurricane blowing down trees. In either case you won't get anywhere no matter how long range your car has.

Range anxiety is most prominent among people who do not own an EV. EV owners are normally pretty chilled about it as it isn't much of an issue in real life. I keep my car charged between 40 and 70% of capacity to maximize battery life and I never go on any long trip without it being panned and know a few days in advance so plenty of time to get a full charge. And in every direction I can drive long-distance there is a Tesla supercharger within less then 50 miles away from where I live. There are so many places to charge that it doesn't really require any planning.

Norway has one of the most reliable power grids in the world. I have experienced one outrage in the last 20 years. It was in the mountain cabin and it lasted almost a full hour.

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2019, 03:26:13 PM »
Where it's very cold a  battery will be "used up" faster than where it's warm.

Where you live it's very cold which will substantially reduce the range of an all-electric car so I think you should purchase a hybrid for its enhanced reliability and range.

Norway has the world's highest density of EVs so the concept is well tested over here. If you have a long-range EV, range is not really an issue. I can drive 250 miles in the summer and ~190-200 in the winter before I need charging and this is much longer than the distance between any 2 Tesla superchargers in most of Norway. The infrastructure for EVs is very good here. And we don't really have wildfires or similar and power outrages are extremely rare, at least one lasting for a long time. The most likely natural disasters here are road blocks due to snow avalanche, a landslide due to heavy rainfall or a hurricane blowing down trees. In either case you won't get anywhere no matter how long range your car has.

Range anxiety is most prominent among people who do not own an EV. EV owners are normally pretty chilled about it as it isn't much of an issue in real life. I keep my car charged between 40 and 70% of capacity to maximize battery life and I never go on any long trip without it being panned and know a few days in advance so plenty of time to get a full charge. And in every direction I can drive long-distance there is a Tesla supercharger within less then 50 miles away from where I live. There are so many places to charge that it doesn't really require any planning.

Norway has one of the most reliable power grids in the world. I have experienced one outrage in the last 20 years. It was in the mountain cabin and it lasted almost a full hour.

Noted.

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2019, 03:45:30 PM »
The difference between how hybrids and bevs are treated here are massive, and will often amount to many hundred euros and substantially more hassle a year. Bevs have free or very cheap toll roads, at least 50% rebate for parking and ferries, 0 annual taxes, etc. Hybrids have none of these advantages. It is even not uncommon that public chargers are reserved for bevs (if the sign says Elbil or EL, you can’t use them with a hybrid). I would never buy a hybrid in Norway.

It is dangerous to try to predict the future, but I will try anyway:
The current government has pledged to keep the subsidies as they are until the end of 2021. I believe them, since it would backfire horribly on the liberals if they broke this promise. After that, we will probably get a government including the greens and the socialists (based on last election and polls, it would take a miracle to turn that trend). The new rulers might introduce some taxes on the most expensive new evs (as Labour recently suggested). So if that is what you want; buy it before 2022. If you buy secondhand, you should be safe (see: greens and socialists). It might not happen, since the farmers’ party might stop them from “punishing people in rural areas”. The main goal of no new fossil fueled vehicles sold after 2025 will probably still stand. That could go both ways for selling second hand hybrids or ICE vehicles, but considering how we are now seeing petrol stations retrofitted to charging stations, I think it will become increasingly difficult to sell something that requires access to fossil fuel infrastructure. It is at least two years since I heard the first case of a car seller (in Trøndelag, BTW) talking about how a customer wanted an Electric golf, not a fossil fueled one, because charging stations were more easily available than petrol stations.

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2019, 11:42:23 PM »
We drive between 20.000 - 25.000 km per year. I don't really expect that to change when we stop working.

I very much agree that two cars is more hassle than one car, apart from when the one car needs service. We never have an insurance that gives you a loan car during a service, because I always buy the cheapest insurance. We could of course reconsider that, and behave like everyone else does. It typically costs 100 euro per year more.

Maybe we should look into EVs without 4x4 as well, because that gives a lot more choice. ThatbKia looks good. But then we'll need to wait until we have moved from here. I suppose that we would typically like to buy an EV with best energy use. I've heard the Hyundai Kona is very effective, only it is a small car. Ford has now also introduced an EV with 4x4 that we should like at. I would at least like to stay under 500K NOK for a new car and preferably far under. The newly suggested tax on expensive EVs wouldn't apply, and doesn't apply for the whole sum anyway, only for the highest part.

I am not per definition looking for the biggest car, but one that is big enough to carry our trip gear. I have heard that Tesla X is difficult to park in parking houses, which I meet regularly in shopping senters. We also have very narrow roads here and even driving the Subaru is sometimes challenging when passing other cars. We are considering using a roofbox for the longer trips, but know that this will add at least 10% more energy usage. And the risk that we don't take it off fast enough. Not all EV cars support roofboxes. I have shown DH MMM's suggestion for a box behind the car, but he was not so enthusiastic about that.

I am now thinking about getting a long range EV and keeping the Subaru for another year, just for the moving and for visiting the cabin. I think we should spend some time in the new year test driving EVs. But it would be nice if Skoda actually had a car to test drive. If the tax advantages for EVs last the whole of 2021, that helps, then we are not in a hurry.

A propos power outages. We have them very often at the cabin, but they don't last long. At home they appear about once a year, maximum some hours. For evacuation purposes, bicyles could come in handy on blocked roads. Don't expect that Norway will never have forest fire evacuations. We have had some very hot summers now with lots of fires. And we have had flooding. It is a valid point to consider.

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2019, 12:37:38 AM »
I asked an electrician at work about the possibility of making an electricity outlet at the cabin. He said it depended on the distance from the cabin to the generator. But he thought it could be possible. I should contact a local electrician who would have to collect more information about the electricity network in the area to know it for sure.
The cable could be dug down into the ground or hung up in poles. We could ask the owner of the existing poles (the electricity network company) whether we can use theirs. Or ask the ground owner to put up new poles. I think there are some electricity poles already.

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2019, 12:52:41 AM »
Energy use for an EV depends almost as much on how you use it than the cars official usage. If you have many short tips in cold weather the average energy use is way higher than if you drive more long-distance as heating the cabin just for a short trip uses quite a bit of energy averaged out over few kilometers. My average electricity consumption is around 15% higher than the official use stated by Tesla. I know others who have an average 10-15% below, but they generally drive longer distances per trip and at quite low speeds (i.e. not on highways). The "fuel cost" is so low anyway I couldn't really be bothered.

In Norway a rooftop box doesn't really matter that much as you generally drive below 80 km/h, on the highways where you go 110-120 the effect is quite noticable. I put mine on when the skiing season starts and take it off when it ends. We try to not use it during summer holiday as the car gets noticable noiser inside with the ski box on, not to same some tiny amount of energy. A box beheind the car will affect the aerodynamics as well - remember a rooftop box is built to have small air drag to start with. The real killer is if you transport bikes on the roof. I have never taken off the rails on the roof as it is quite a job to take them on and off and I might suddenly need it to transport something anyway.

I know power outrages are more common outside the cities as the main cause is trees falling over local power lines, but as you say they are generally fixed pretty quickly. For the main high-voltage countrywide grid the lines are built much higher than trees and surrounding trees are cut down anyway.


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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2019, 01:14:48 AM »
We regularly use roof bars on our current car, but we try to remember to take them off before long trips. It is a bit of hassle, but doesn't take more than 10-15 minutes. Sometimes we forget about them and that annoys me. I would like the car to at least have the option of roof bars. We sometimes put a canoe on the roof, mostly over short distances driving. One we drove all the way to Sweden with a canoe on the roof, but that would not be a good idea to do with an EV. It is an Ally, so we can take it apart and put it inside the car.

We also want to be able to transport bicycles sometimes, preferably on the roof. There is of course the option to store bicycles on the back of the car, making it more difficult to open the hatch. If the car is big enough, you can also put to bikes in the back on top of each other, but not store so much else. Maybe an occasional rack on the back would be the best option for an EV.

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2019, 05:31:09 AM »
As EVs are so ubiquious all aspects of the pros and contras have been debated countless times and pretty much beaten to death on lots of discussion boards. An attempt on a summary would go roughly as follows:

- Most people who actually own long-range EVs have no problem with range as the range is longer than any distance driven in one sitting anyway
- As the number of cars explode, charging is starting to become more of a problem during peak hours around school holidays etc
- Most people think they drive long-distance much more often than they actually do. The will to buy an (oversized) car based on some edge case that at some point in time might pop up is quite strong. Ditto buying a large car becuause of something that happens quite seldom, like getting the boat to and from the ocean before/after the season or pulling a big trailer. Most such tasks can be solved in another way than owning a big SUV or similar for this specific task
- Up until quite recently the choice of large-ish EVs with 4x4 has been limited and the cars are pricey despite having low operating costs. For a lot of folks this is the only type of cars which would cover all bases. Some of the cheaper models are quite small for a family with children.
- Its quite common to have a small EV as a secondardy car for commuting due to the incentives and lower costs (especially if commuting to/from a city with toll roads). This car generally ends up being car number #1 and the percieved car #1 gets less and less use as ppl realize their actual transportation needs instead of the imaginary ones. And the running costs of an EV are much lower.
- There are some, for which no EV is a good choice due to where they live, how long they have to drive on a regular basis, bad charging infrastructure, lack of some of the incentives and quite high costs for a relevant car. This is especially the case if living out somewhere in the countryside.
- Some just don't find an electric motor and its silent operation manly enough. Nor are there cars that are very sporty. The Tesla has ridicilous acceleration when going in a straight line, but the car is big, heavy and certainly ain't no sports car.
- For some, a car is an important part of their idenity, a hobby or whatever. For others its just a means of transport without any sentimental value.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2019, 06:19:44 AM »
As EVs are so ubiquious all aspects of the pros and contras have been debated countless times and pretty much beaten to death on lots of discussion boards. An attempt on a summary would go roughly as follows:

- Most people who actually own long-range EVs have no problem with range as the range is longer than any distance driven in one sitting anyway
- As the number of cars explode, charging is starting to become more of a problem during peak hours around school holidays etc
- Most people think they drive long-distance much more often than they actually do. The will to buy an (oversized) car based on some edge case that at some point in time might pop up is quite strong. Ditto buying a large car becuause of something that happens quite seldom, like getting the boat to and from the ocean before/after the season or pulling a big trailer. Most such tasks can be solved in another way than owning a big SUV or similar for this specific task
- Up until quite recently the choice of large-ish EVs with 4x4 has been limited and the cars are pricey despite having low operating costs. For a lot of folks this is the only type of cars which would cover all bases. Some of the cheaper models are quite small for a family with children.
- Its quite common to have a small EV as a secondardy car for commuting due to the incentives and lower costs (especially if commuting to/from a city with toll roads). This car generally ends up being car number #1 and the percieved car #1 gets less and less use as ppl realize their actual transportation needs instead of the imaginary ones. And the running costs of an EV are much lower.
- There are some, for which no EV is a good choice due to where they live, how long they have to drive on a regular basis, bad charging infrastructure, lack of some of the incentives and quite high costs for a relevant car. This is especially the case if living out somewhere in the countryside.
- Some just don't find an electric motor and its silent operation manly enough. Nor are there cars that are very sporty. The Tesla has ridicilous acceleration when going in a straight line, but the car is big, heavy and certainly ain't no sports car.
- For some, a car is an important part of their idenity, a hobby or whatever. For others its just a means of transport without any sentimental value.

- Most people who actually own long-range EVs have no problem with range as the range is longer than any distance driven in one sitting anyway

For us, the distance to the cabin would be such a distance. That is currently 380km and we usually take only short bathroom breaks. Only long range EVs can manage that distance and in winter, we might have to load somewhere. Shouldn't be a problem. I have understood that EV also can load for just 10 minutes if that is the time you want to spend.

- As the number of cars explode, charging is starting to become more of a problem during peak hours around school holidays etc

We should be able to avoid those peak hours.

- Most people think they drive long-distance much more often than they actually do. The will to buy an (oversized) car based on some edge case that at some point in time might pop up is quite strong. Ditto buying a large car becuause of something that happens quite seldom, like getting the boat to and from the ocean before/after the season or pulling a big trailer. Most such tasks can be solved in another way than owning a big SUV or similar for this specific task

Very long distance driving, longer than to the cabin, is typically twice a year so far. Once to further north in Norway in summer time. And once in December to the Netherlands, if we don't fly. This could change when we FIRE, as I expect that we will do more longer trips. But then we should have the time to stop and charge. If that is done every 400 km or so, that would be acceptable. Normally we stop every 2 hours for switching chauffeurs or take longer break.

- Up until quite recently the choice of large-ish EVs with 4x4 has been limited and the cars are pricey despite having low operating costs. For a lot of folks this is the only type of cars which would cover all bases. Some of the cheaper models are quite small for a family with children.

We need 4x4 as long as we live here. After that it would be convenient. We often bring along a lot of stuff to the cabin or on other trips, about once a month. Therefore, despite not having children, a largish car would be convenient. But maybe a roof box can compensate for this. We are open for that.

- Its quite common to have a small EV as a secondardy car for commuting due to the incentives and lower costs (especially if commuting to/from a city with toll roads). This car generally ends up being car number #1 and the percieved car #1 gets less and less use as ppl realize their actual transportation needs instead of the imaginary ones. And the running costs of an EV are much lower.

I have heard that as well, from people who own a Nissan Leave as second car. I imagine we would use it as our only car for local and medium far use. But again, we would have to wait until we have moved. They don't yet make small EVs with 4x4, like our old suzuki has. Having only one car less would be less hassle altogether (switching tires, EU control etc).

- There are some, for which no EV is a good choice due to where they live, how long they have to drive on a regular basis, bad charging infrastructure, lack of some of the incentives and quite high costs for a relevant car. This is especially the case if living out somewhere in the countryside.

This would depend on where we move to. Or we would have to plan the move according to the infrastructure. I expect us to charge mostly at home. But we should be able to charge if we for example would drive to Finnmark to go fishing in Stabbursdalen or a place like that. We have been there many times before (also by plane) and I expect us to visit there more often. Or places like Indre Dividalen. Those places have a town nearby and I think I saw charging station on a map there. Børgefjell, where we also go often (in summer), is typically far from any town and a bit more critical to reach. We also typically travel on RV17 and on Lofoten/Vesterålen and I haven't seen many stations there, although I have seen some occasionally. Most of the stations northwards are placed along the E6.

- Some just don't find an electric motor and its silent operation manly enough. Nor are there cars that are very sporty. The Tesla has ridiculous acceleration when going in a straight line, but the car is big, heavy and certainly ain't no sports car.

That is not us, not DH either. But DH has noticed that the Toyota Prius typically pulls up very slowly, like an el cheapo rental car of the smallest kind and that was a bit too slow for his taste. But he experienced that the BMW EV can pull up fast, more than fast enough for us. I would like a car that pulls up like the Subaru outback at least (a turbo diesel, but nothing fancy). I have understood that EVs that can pull up really fast need good (and therefore expensive) tires. I would rather pay for normal tires and a normal car.

- For some, a car is an important part of their identity, a hobby or whatever. For others its just a means of transport without any sentimental value.

For us it is the latter. It just needs to be functional.

habaneroNorway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2019, 06:31:52 AM »
For us, the distance to the cabin would be such a distance. That is currently 380km and we usually take only short bathroom breaks. Only long range EVs can manage that distance and in winter, we might have to load somewhere. Shouldn't be a problem. I have understood that EV also can load for just 10 minutes if that is the time you want to spend.

Keep in mind that if you go to a mountain cabin in the winter, there are 3 important factors for energy consumpion.
1) The distance
2) The temperature
3) The net elevation

If you have a car weighting 1800kg including cargo, start at sea level and cabin is 1000 meters above sea level and a listed energy consumption of say 0,16kWh/km you will loose about 33-34km of range. There is no way getting around this, this is just pure physics from the extra energy required to lift the car up assuming 90% efficiency of the engine.

You can charge just for a short time if you need just a little more, but for such a break to actually be only 10 minutes there has to be a charger available and it has to be quick to get to and plug into and you need to get decent charging speed out of it. I do this when we go to our winter cabin - I would make it there but battery would be close to empty which I don't want when up in the mountain in the winter with kids so I do a short stop just to have some margin. I normally spend the time grocery shopping whatever we found out we forgot to bring.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2019, 07:04:31 AM »
For us, the distance to the cabin would be such a distance. That is currently 380km and we usually take only short bathroom breaks. Only long range EVs can manage that distance and in winter, we might have to load somewhere. Shouldn't be a problem. I have understood that EV also can load for just 10 minutes if that is the time you want to spend.

Keep in mind that if you go to a mountain cabin in the winter, there are 3 important factors for energy consumpion.
1) The distance
2) The temperature
3) The net elevation

If you have a car weighting 1800kg including cargo, start at sea level and cabin is 1000 meters above sea level and a listed energy consumption of say 0,16kWh/km you will loose about 33-34km of range. There is no way getting around this, this is just pure physics from the extra energy required to lift the car up assuming 90% efficiency of the engine.

You can charge just for a short time if you need just a little more, but for such a break to actually be only 10 minutes there has to be a charger available and it has to be quick to get to and plug into and you need to get decent charging speed out of it. I do this when we go to our winter cabin - I would make it there but battery would be close to empty which I don't want when up in the mountain in the winter with kids so I do a short stop just to have some margin. I normally spend the time grocery shopping whatever we found out we forgot to bring.

Our cabin is at 700 meters. And it is in a very cold area (around Femund). Up to -40 C/F in the winter. We often drive with -15C and then we need to put on the heater, as well as have the blower on the front window. And/or throw a blanket over our knees. Maybe we should wear a warm suit when driving in winter...
There are charging stations in Trysil (crowded) and in Engerdal (very quiet). We usually shop at the local shop near the cabin, to keep it open. We would definitely need a charger at the cabin, not in the least place to have a motor warmer for the electric motor. Our current diesel car doesn't like starting at -20C which we do sometimes.

I am also not sure whether we will keep this cabin forever. It depends on where we are going to live and what kind of activities you can do there. But so far, we haven't planned to sell it. I told DH that I want to sell it if we ever buy a camper van, as I don't want both.

habaneroNorway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2019, 07:53:17 AM »
I don't think an electric motor requires any pre-warming, but not 100% sure. Never heard of anyone using it at least.

Under those conditions the range will be much shorter than advertised. When we drive to our cabin in the spring/summer/fall I generally arrive with around 80km remaining range. In the winter I charge en route as said and it's never been as could as you describe when I drive there. On the plus side the heating system is very good so don't have to wait until the engine is hot (which takes forever when driving downhill) for the heating to start working.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2019, 09:23:30 AM »
I don't think an electric motor requires any pre-warming, but not 100% sure. Never heard of anyone using it at least.

Under those conditions the range will be much shorter than advertised. When we drive to our cabin in the spring/summer/fall I generally arrive with around 80km remaining range. In the winter I charge en route as said and it's never been as could as you describe when I drive there. On the plus side the heating system is very good so don't have to wait until the engine is hot (which takes forever when driving downhill) for the heating to start working.

I meant perhaps battery warmer. I have understood that Tesla might have a built in system for that.
And if you warm up the inside of the car from an outlet before you drive, you don't need to use batteri capacity for that. So the outlet at the cabin should preferably support that.

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2019, 12:35:11 PM »
Here is the official map of chargers in Norway: https://www.ladestasjoner.no/kart/ Most of the places you mentioned should be no problem, and my experience from Lofoten is that it was easy to navigate in an EV. Also, while on holiday we usually park at camping sites, and use the plugs there to charge the car over night. For mainland Europe, plugshare has the most comprehensive map, while zapmap is the standard in the UK. Finland also had their own thing, but I can't remember what it was.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2019, 01:39:04 PM »
Here is the official map of chargers in Norway: https://www.ladestasjoner.no/kart/ Most of the places you mentioned should be no problem, and my experience from Lofoten is that it was easy to navigate in an EV. Also, while on holiday we usually park at camping sites, and use the plugs there to charge the car over night. For mainland Europe, plugshare has the most comprehensive map, while zapmap is the standard in the UK. Finland also had their own thing, but I can't remember what it was.

We often stay at campsites as well, so we should charge there as well.
I see that Finnmark has very few charging stations. Most of the other places should be OK.

gaja

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2019, 02:23:29 PM »
Here is the official map of chargers in Norway: https://www.ladestasjoner.no/kart/ Most of the places you mentioned should be no problem, and my experience from Lofoten is that it was easy to navigate in an EV. Also, while on holiday we usually park at camping sites, and use the plugs there to charge the car over night. For mainland Europe, plugshare has the most comprehensive map, while zapmap is the standard in the UK. Finland also had their own thing, but I can't remember what it was.

We often stay at campsites as well, so we should charge there as well.
I see that Finnmark has very few charging stations. Most of the other places should be OK.

Yes, Finnmark has been an issue for a long time. But Enova has now given funding for a substantial number of rapid chargers up there, and I think it will be ok in a year or two. It will never become as easy as in the south, but with a decent-long range EV it shouldn't be a problem in a few years.

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2019, 03:44:17 PM »
If the car is big enough, you can also put to bikes in the back on top of each other, but not store so much else.
I would not transport bikes like this - too easy to damage parts like rear derailleur and bottom bracket.

I have understood that EVs that can pull up really fast need good (and therefore expensive) tires.
High-performance cars need high-performance tires (EV or otherwise).

I meant perhaps battery warmer. I have understood that Tesla might have a built in system for that.
And if you warm up the inside of the car from an outlet before you drive, you don't need to use batteri capacity for that. So the outlet at the cabin should preferably support that.
Lithium batteries need to be above freezing to charge (or else they'll be damaged), so a battery warming system is essential.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2019, 11:57:26 PM »
If the car is big enough, you can also put to bikes in the back on top of each other, but not store so much else.
I would not transport bikes like this - too easy to damage parts like rear derailleur and bottom bracket.

I have understood that EVs that can pull up really fast need good (and therefore expensive) tires.
High-performance cars need high-performance tires (EV or otherwise).

I meant perhaps battery warmer. I have understood that Tesla might have a built in system for that.
And if you warm up the inside of the car from an outlet before you drive, you don't need to use batteri capacity for that. So the outlet at the cabin should preferably support that.
Lithium batteries need to be above freezing to charge (or else they'll be damaged), so a battery warming system is essential.

DH is a bike person and he was also skeptic to transport 2 bikes that way. One way okay according to him. But we transport bikes on the roof maybe twice a year, so we could put them on the roof for those occasions.

We don't really need a high performance car. Just normal performance, with the ability to pull up to pass a camper would be sufficient.

For the battery warmer, we will have to investigate the car we will buy and talk with the sellers (if they are to be trusted). And maybe ask on local EV forums where there are lots of enthusiasts.

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2019, 12:13:23 AM »
Lithium batteries need to be above freezing to charge (or else they'll be damaged), so a battery warming system is essential.

Then every EV will have some system to heat the battery before charging otherwise the car would not be usable in cold weather.

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2019, 09:00:47 AM »
Lithium batteries need to be above freezing to charge (or else they'll be damaged), so a battery warming system is essential.

Then every EV will have some system to heat the battery before charging otherwise the car would not be usable in cold weather.
Yes, I'm sure every EV designed for northern Europe includes a system (really it'd only make sense to omit one in tropical climates). It's just a factor in energy consumption for cold weather. Parked outside in very cold weather any EV will use a bit of energy keeping batteries warm. I imagine that when plugged in, the batteries would be warmed to 5-10 C before charging. When unplugged, the car might even use battery power to heat the batteries when it is below -10 C.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2019, 12:03:01 AM »
https://www.tesla.com/no_no/cybertruck

This is an ugly car in my personal opinion. Buy it might actually fit our specs. Long range in the most expensive version, can pull a trailer, has 4x4 and lots of storage space. We could skip the rear seats.
Petty ot won't be avaible before 2022. Maybe there will be VAT on EVs by then.

habaneroNorway

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Re: Help me choose our next car (electric or hybrid)
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2019, 12:53:57 AM »
Yes, I'm sure every EV designed for northern Europe includes a system (really it'd only make sense to omit one in tropical climates). It's just a factor in energy consumption for cold weather. Parked outside in very cold weather any EV will use a bit of energy keeping batteries warm. I imagine that when plugged in, the batteries would be warmed to 5-10 C before charging. When unplugged, the car might even use battery power to heat the batteries when it is below -10 C.

Where it's most visible is on the regenerative breaking. My Tesla has a peak regenerative breaking power of 50kW (90 horsepower). It's powerful enough that you hardly need to use the actual brakes at all when driving unless something unforseen happens. As it gets colder towards the end of the year the effect is lower and lower the colder it gets. If it gets really cold (like -10) is non-existent when you start driving. You have to drive for quite some time for it to get it fully back.