Author Topic: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home  (Read 9554 times)

lifejoy

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Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« on: January 16, 2018, 04:29:48 AM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?

- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning?

- how to secure excellent stable neighbours if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive) neighbourhood?

- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit?

- how to give multiple kids their own space?

- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes?

- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist?

- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite).

- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances?

I don’t necessarily believe in the points that all of these questions put forth, but I would love to hear some counterpoints that make these objections seem irrelevant,or at least, unimportant. All of the above has been asked to me when I explain I would like to live in a smaller home. I can think of my own ways to refute these points but I’d live to hear from you smarties! Thanks :)

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2018, 05:05:03 AM »
Small is relative, but I'll answer from the perspective of living in an 1,100 sqft 3 bed 2 bath home on a 1/4 acre lot.   We have a garage and a covered patio that isn't included in the 1,100 soft, but no basement and very little usable attic space.  The pool takes up a good chunk of the backyard, but we have a good sized front yard.  So plenty of space for working outdoors. 

Hope it helps! 


- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?
We have lots of friends and peers and colleagues that live in country club neighborhoods and giant McMansions - not kidding that one is 5,000 sqft!.  They've never been anything but gracious and kind when they visit our home.  Maybe they go home and gossip about how small it is behind our backs but probably not.  People just honestly dont care that much about other people's lives. 


- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning?
We went with 2 bathrooms, but they are small.  Together they are ~ 75 sqft, while the average new bathroom constructed today is 100sqft.   


- how to secure excellent stable neighbours if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive)
We bought in an "older neighborhood" without a hoa.  It attracts a specific kind of person who doesn't want to deal with that bs and has been very stable.  Here that is something plotted in the 1950's or 60's, and ours is one of the older homes, built in the mid 80s.   As it's filled in, the homes keep getting bigger and nicer so the latest one was a 3000sqft place for $700K+. 


- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit?
Well, it would be tight.  We could put an air mattress in the office for 2, then the futon in the guest/media room for 2 more.   The couch in the living room could sleep 1, and then the hammock on the covered patio is technically a double so you could get two more out there.   They'd just be quite cozy.  Or you could put them up in a hotel and tell them what time to show up for breakfast. =)


- how to give multiple kids their own space?
No kids, but we each have plenty of space in the house.  I assume the kids would get the two bedrooms that we currently use for other interests. 


- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes?
Small homes in nice neighborhoods get the same schools as big homes in nice neighborhoods. 


- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist?
Lots of shelves in the garage for all our tools and we planned our kitchen cabinetry very strategically to fit everything when we redid it.  I don't think anyone would call us minimalist. 



- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite).
Again, we have 2 bathrooms.  The bigger of which (40sqft!!!) is connected to the master bedroom. 


- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances?
Convertible furniture. We don't have a separate dining room, but when we redid our kitchen/dining area we built a table that slides out and a built in bench seat.  When it's all pushed in, 4-5 people fit at the table, but you get another 2-3 if you pull it out and have people sit on the bench.  Before this we could only seat maybe 3-4 people at our old table, so it put a crimp in the entertaining when it was too hot or too cold.   

Parizade

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2018, 05:14:08 AM »
A number of these issues could be solved for if you purchase a nice condominium. My brother and his wife lived in a condo with a large (shared) party room/kitchen, home theater room, craft party room, and hobby shop. Their condo also maintained a two bedroom "guest suite" that could be reserved at no charge for overnight guests. The landscaped courtyard included a pergola and gas grill for outdoor entertaining. Their home became the hub of all family parties while they lived there.

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2018, 05:17:10 AM »
I think it is less about being in a small house and more about being in a "right-sized" house. We downsized from a bigger house to a much smaller home, but we focused less on size to one that fit our needs. We wouldn't consider a house with one bathroom...we have two kids and I wanted at least two toilets. We also wanted them each to have their own bedroom, but we ditched the idea of a guest bedroom. We stay in a hotel when we're visit family and figure they can do the same. We also didn't want a formal dining space because it was just wasted space for us. We found an older home in a nice neighborhood which is literally next to our old neighborhood. My kids didn't even have to change schools.

I think you focus on something that fits you needs and be comfortable with your choices. That means not sorting about what others think or feeling that you owe them an explanation because you don't.

Cranky

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2018, 06:24:04 AM »
If you’ve got friends who would think less of you for having a small house, maybe shop around for some new friends? I’d find that pretty annoying, but I’m happy to talk to people about my values (which are more about wise use of resources than money.)

And I had 3 girls , so my nonnegotiable in a house was a second bathroom, even if it was just a basement bathroom.

Other than that, raising the kids in a small house in a low income neighborhood has been fine. The schools were fine. My neighbors have been fine. Poor people don’t actually make worse neighbors than rich people, as it happens.

We have a basement and an air mattress and a futon. We have company. The kids had sleepovers. We have a big outside party every summer, but we also have people over to dinner, and we host a monthly church dinner for 10 or 12 people.

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2018, 06:50:38 AM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?

Our spouses share a profession, I think. Your husband may not have any school debt he's looking to eradicate, in which case you can disregard this, but my wife has found that mentioning we'd rather kill her student loans than hop aboard the big house, fancy car train typically ends the interrogations.

lifejoy

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Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2018, 07:13:08 AM »
Wow...well...the thing is that there’s a huge range between 300 sqft apartment and 4000 sqft McMansion.

I mean, I can’t even begin to parse that list because it’s all about priorities.

Like anyone else who buys a house, you have to hammer out your collective family priorities and move forward from there. If having multiple bathrooms is a priority then get a place with multiple bathrooms.

I could write out replies to all of your questions, but that’s not really what you need.
Your DH isn’t expressing these concerns because he wants them rationally addressed, he’s expressing these concerns as a way of communicating that a smaller and less expensive house in a cheaper neighbourhood isn’t his priority.

Instead of trying to refute his rationale for his personal priorities, try to establish that *your* priorities matter as much as his and that you two will have to find some kind of middle ground to both be happy.

I don’t live in the kind of place I want to live in. It’s not practical for our shared lifestyle and financial goals. Where we live meets our needs perfectly, it’s just not what I want at all, but after we sat down and hammered out our priorities, I happily accepted that what I want isn’t practical until we retire, and that’s cool, it’s something I get to look forward to.

Work on this together, don’t try to convince him he’s wrong, that’s just going to make you his opponent on this.

Excellent points but I have to clarify: most of these objections are from my parents and my husband’s parents! DH is not opposed to a modest-sized or very small home

Nor am I. But I’m trying to make sure I’m not being naive or failing to see the big picture.

lifejoy

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2018, 07:16:33 AM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?

Our spouses share a profession, I think. Your husband may not have any school debt he's looking to eradicate, in which case you can disregard this, but my wife has found that mentioning we'd rather kill her student loans than hop aboard the big house, fancy car train typically ends the interrogations.

I think I was unclear, DH is not opposed to a smaller home, it’s our parents (whose opinions I generally respect) who are the major objectors and I just want to make sure I’ve thought this through properly.

But yes - in some ways we should’ve kept those student loans around so that we could have an excuse to buy smaller ;)

rubybeth

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2018, 07:54:07 AM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?

Our spouses share a profession, I think. Your husband may not have any school debt he's looking to eradicate, in which case you can disregard this, but my wife has found that mentioning we'd rather kill her student loans than hop aboard the big house, fancy car train typically ends the interrogations.

I think I was unclear, DH is not opposed to a smaller home, it’s our parents (whose opinions I generally respect) who are the major objectors and I just want to make sure I’ve thought this through properly.

But yes - in some ways we should’ve kept those student loans around so that we could have an excuse to buy smaller ;)

Well, the best argument then is that your parents and his parents don't have to live there and pay for it. ;) You can just say, "This is our value system, we want a more modest house, at least for our first house, and we'll see how it goes." There's nothing that says you have to buy a house and live in it until you die. If you have a bunch more kids, maybe having a larger space will make sense, so you sell your first house and buy another. Or maybe you'll just have one more and the two kids will want to share a bedroom (my sister and I loved sharing a room for a number of years, and then frequently had "sleepovers" in the other's room, since we had a bunk bed in one of them--it was fun!), and staying put will make sense.

Also, you can alleviate a lot of this by having 2 bathrooms, and look for a house that has one of those bathrooms next to the master, with a pass-through door between master and family bathroom (or look for a way to add a door later). I have seen many homes like this--you get access to a bathroom from the master without having to clean a whole separate bathroom. You can also add a bathroom later in a lower level or whatever for guests.

For guests, you have a variety of options--get fold-out couches, air mattresses, and have a standard guest room that's a shared space. Do you follow Young House Love (website or podcast)? They have a large house but still have a shared sewing room/guest room situation that works well for them. Get a fold-out couch for a study/office and it can be a guest space in a pinch. Get bunk beds for a kid's room and have your child sleep in your room (or sleep in theirs) when guests are there. Use a family room as a guest space, or a living room.

All of the school/neighborhood issues have been addressed by others--get a smaller house in one of those nicer areas and you're set. It's far easier to change a house than the house's location.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2018, 08:46:30 AM »
I think your premise is flawed. You don't have to justify anything to anybody.

My wife and I pre-qualified for a $300,000+ home two years ago.  Where I live (NE Ohio), that's a 3,000 square foot house with everything you could dream of.  I think everyone assumed we would buy this type of house, or at least something big in the $250,000 range.

We instead elected to buy a 1,062 square foot home with a finished basement for about $127,500.  Right after buying I started a thread about how to make my home as efficient as possible: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/tips-for-making-an-1100-square-foot-house-work/

As I indicated in that thread, pretty much everybody said, "Oh, that's cute, you'll move out when you have kids." So we took the proactive steps to make sure we could still grow into the house. That thread is chalk full of useful information for making a small space feel bigger than it is and being efficient.

We've lived here for two years now, and we've stuck to the script.

-There is nothing in the smallest bedroom

-There is nothing in the second bedroom closet (except suitcases, which can easily be put downstairs, but we don't like bringing them up and down the steps)

-The furniture we bought for the livingroom includes significant storage space

-The garage is incredibly empty besides the cars, lawncare equipment, and a few tools/car washing stuff

-The basement storage is only about 50% full, and we are going to have a "purge" to throw stuff away this month

Nobody ever comes over and raises any of the objections you mentioned.  We just had my wife's family over this weekend (six people) and it was great. We put a leaf in the dinner table, hosted upstairs, and hosted downstairs. I should post pictures of the layout now because it's all intentionally efficient while not being over the top minimalist.

The one constant thing we do hear is "Your house is so tidy and clean."  That's pretty easy to do when your house is pretty small--we can vacuum the entire upstairs without having to unplug the thing!

Also, as I said, we haven't intruded the other bedrooms, so when we do have kids, they will have their own space.  We also might renovate the current downstairs office/exercise room into another bedroom, finish the bathroom down there, and then turn the small bedroom into the exercise room.

I'll end my ranting post by finishing where I started--you do you and don't worry about others may think. Find a floor plan that works for you, be intentional with things you purchase, and everything will be fine.


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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2018, 09:01:51 AM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?  are you sure coworkers will know where you live? My coworkers have never seen my house. Beyond that, why is he so concerned with what other people think? challenge him on that. "So, if all your coworkers abusing animals, you'd start abusing animals just to fit in?" Don't need to be a lemming.

- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning? Buckets. Sinks. And what are the chances that EVERYONE gets food poisoning/flu at the same time and is throwing up at the same time? Plus, 1.5 baths exist.

- how to secure excellent stable neighbors if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive) neighborhood? Neighbors are a crap shoot no matter where you live. I live in a nice neighborhood, and on one side I have the unmedicated bipolar bitch who has 10+ year long feuds with everyone else on the block. The other side is an older man who's going to die of alcohol poisoning, a drug overdose, or liver failure. My friends who live 10 minutes from me in a less expensive area have better neighbors.

- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit? Air mattress, couch, hotel, Airbnb. Why are you going to buy a house that's large enough to accomidate something that happens once a year?
 You have to clean, heat, cool, and maintain it year round.


- how to give multiple kids their own space? Outside exists for a reason. Learning to live with other people is a skill, and it's a valuable one to have.

- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes? Define excellent. Because the school ratings really tell you about the demographics of the student body, not how good the teachers are.

- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist? Learn to be happy with less stuff. Multipurpose stuff as well. Clever use of space. Basements and attics are very nice as well if you have them.

- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite). be in the bathroom to begin with? Realistically, if you're fielding these types of questions, he's never going to agree to the house you're looking at.

- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances? Be realistic. Do you currently, regularly, actually do this? If no, it's isn't going to start. If yes, spread out around a couple rooms, be less formal, people sit wherever.

I don’t necessarily believe in the points that all of these questions put forth, but I would love to hear some counterpoints that make these objections seem irrelevant,or at least, unimportant. All of the above has been asked to me when I explain I would like to live in a smaller home. I can think of my own ways to refute these points but I’d live to hear from you smarties! Thanks :)

Sounds like you're either dealing with someone who absolutely don't get it, or you're really looking at places that are too small.

Edit:
I missed LifeJoy's update, eye to brain error. It's simple. They're out of line, tell them so. Be as polite or impolite as you wish. I think at one point I told my mom that her opinion did not factor into my decision making. She figured it out and backed off.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 12:36:25 PM by Sibley »

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2018, 09:27:11 AM »
Did you and your partner actually grow up in McMansions?  If not, I imagine your parents successfully dealt with many of the problems they are now inventing for you, in which case, it seems a good answer might be that "we'll manage, just like you did!".

In general, I think you can probably also make a convincing argument that smaller homes are trendier now and that having one isn't necessarily such a social step "down" (which seems to be the concern behind quite a few of the questions you mention).

Things like managing food poisioning, "marital relations", etc are just grasping at straws.  I would try to shut down the conversation before things like that even come up.

When you do buy a home, make sure you talk up all the positive attributes of the home or the area to your relatives (such a walkable neighborhood!, so cozy when it's cold out!, such nice neighbors we met the other day!, cutest little shopping district nearby!). 

Cowardly Toaster

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2018, 09:51:40 AM »
Let's see.

Find an older small house with a lot of character. People will see it for what it is. Work hard to make it really cute and beautiful.

Smaller houses are great precisely because you don't hoard too much stuff. I've gotten better at practicing the one thing out for every one thing in rule. You'll get good at organizing stuff efficiently.

As far as guests, get a pull out couch with a bed, or get some fancy cots or something.

Get a house with 1.5 bathrooms.

Plenty of small houses have open spaces for entertaining. Shop around.

Neighbors? Thanks to Millinniels getting fed up with mcmansions, lots of them are reviving neighborhoods with older, smaller houses.

Most of all, if you're worried about what people think, come up with a standard, pithy, but inoffensive answer for when someone notices your small house.

Noodle

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2018, 10:19:55 AM »
Since you and your husband are on the same page, the most useful answer to everyone else is probably not a logical argument but a response of "Thank you so much for caring about us! We look forward to having you over!" or some other non-answer that acknowledges that the questions are coming from a place of love and concern but you are not engaging with them.

The one exception might be the bathroom issue...that might be coming from someone who has a bathroom-related problem and is concerned about access when visiting, but doesn't want to get into details. Having access to two toilets can be a definite improvement in daily life, much more so than the other concerns which are all maybes, or once in a great while.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2018, 10:33:46 AM »
Most of all, if you're worried about what people think, come up with a standard, pithy, but inoffensive answer for when someone notices your small house.

My go to is "I'm too lazy to take care of a big house and a big yard," and people seem to get a laugh out of that.

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2018, 10:53:02 AM »
We moved from a ~4800 square ft house to a townhouse and I posted about some of the reasons / results in the following thread

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/right-size-my-life/

Not sure I would want to go down to 1 bathroom for something I owned but for a temporary rental I could make it work.

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2018, 11:01:00 AM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!

- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning?
Good question, I can't remember this happening at all growing up though (5 in a house with a single bathroom). Realistically, I've found you can puke in a bucket if it gets that bad though.

- how to secure excellent stable neighbours if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive) neighbourhood?

- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit?
Hotel with a pool, that keeps the kids entertained

- how to give multiple kids their own space?
Parenting choice, personally I think my kids should interact more...

- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes?
smallest house in best neighbourhood?

- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist?
Come see my house, I have ingenious storage solutions that are fun DIY projects. Or jst incorporate designs from the tiny house movement in regular sized houses

- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite).
House coats...in hindsight I now realize I saw my parents doing this :(

- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances?
Rent out restaurants, it's less out of pocket than having a larger mortgage. Or host intimate dinner parties of 4. But really, do you actually like hosting large parties (I don't)
I live in 920 sf with a now finished basement. I have 3 bedrooms and a second bathroom in the basement suite (at one time I rented out the basement).

Its actually fun to retrofit the house to make it more livable. I have hidden alcoves in between the wall studs, for extra storage. I have pocket doors to maximize floor space. You get the idea.

As an aside, you don't have kids. You can be one of the smart people that buys a house and then moves into a larger house later on, if you change your mind. You can keep the original as a rental, its pretty common. Buying a house isn't a permanent thing, its just a few years of living arrangements.

People who complain are often short sighted. If you find it too small...you can move at any point. Meanwhile you'll pocket a lot of cash in reduced living expenses.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 11:04:55 AM by Prairie Stash »

Fishindude

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2018, 11:07:55 AM »
Give me a small mortgage or a paid for home any day over an big McMansion and a pile of debt.
Ever see a picture of Warren Buffetts house?

lifejoy

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2018, 11:22:27 AM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?

Our spouses share a profession, I think. Your husband may not have any school debt he's looking to eradicate, in which case you can disregard this, but my wife has found that mentioning we'd rather kill her student loans than hop aboard the big house, fancy car train typically ends the interrogations.

I think I was unclear, DH is not opposed to a smaller home, it’s our parents (whose opinions I generally respect) who are the major objectors and I just want to make sure I’ve thought this through properly.

But yes - in some ways we should’ve kept those student loans around so that we could have an excuse to buy smaller ;)

Well, the best argument then is that your parents and his parents don't have to live there and pay for it. ;) You can just say, "This is our value system, we want a more modest house, at least for our first house, and we'll see how it goes." There's nothing that says you have to buy a house and live in it until you die. If you have a bunch more kids, maybe having a larger space will make sense, so you sell your first house and buy another. Or maybe you'll just have one more and the two kids will want to share a bedroom (my sister and I loved sharing a room for a number of years, and then frequently had "sleepovers" in the other's room, since we had a bunk bed in one of them--it was fun!), and staying put will make sense.

Also, you can alleviate a lot of this by having 2 bathrooms, and look for a house that has one of those bathrooms next to the master, with a pass-through door between master and family bathroom (or look for a way to add a door later). I have seen many homes like this--you get access to a bathroom from the master without having to clean a whole separate bathroom. You can also add a bathroom later in a lower level or whatever for guests.

For guests, you have a variety of options--get fold-out couches, air mattresses, and have a standard guest room that's a shared space. Do you follow Young House Love (website or podcast)? They have a large house but still have a shared sewing room/guest room situation that works well for them. Get a fold-out couch for a study/office and it can be a guest space in a pinch. Get bunk beds for a kid's room and have your child sleep in your room (or sleep in theirs) when guests are there. Use a family room as a guest space, or a living room.

All of the school/neighborhood issues have been addressed by others--get a smaller house in one of those nicer areas and you're set. It's far easier to change a house than the house's location.

I’ll check out young house love!

True, it’s less wanting to justify or decision and more that I value input from our parents but don’t agree and want to make sure I’m not totally naive.

lifejoy

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2018, 11:23:43 AM »
I think your premise is flawed. You don't have to justify anything to anybody.

My wife and I pre-qualified for a $300,000+ home two years ago.  Where I live (NE Ohio), that's a 3,000 square foot house with everything you could dream of.  I think everyone assumed we would buy this type of house, or at least something big in the $250,000 range.

We instead elected to buy a 1,062 square foot home with a finished basement for about $127,500.  Right after buying I started a thread about how to make my home as efficient as possible: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/tips-for-making-an-1100-square-foot-house-work/

As I indicated in that thread, pretty much everybody said, "Oh, that's cute, you'll move out when you have kids." So we took the proactive steps to make sure we could still grow into the house. That thread is chalk full of useful information for making a small space feel bigger than it is and being efficient.

We've lived here for two years now, and we've stuck to the script.

-There is nothing in the smallest bedroom

-There is nothing in the second bedroom closet (except suitcases, which can easily be put downstairs, but we don't like bringing them up and down the steps)

-The furniture we bought for the livingroom includes significant storage space

-The garage is incredibly empty besides the cars, lawncare equipment, and a few tools/car washing stuff

-The basement storage is only about 50% full, and we are going to have a "purge" to throw stuff away this month

Nobody ever comes over and raises any of the objections you mentioned.  We just had my wife's family over this weekend (six people) and it was great. We put a leaf in the dinner table, hosted upstairs, and hosted downstairs. I should post pictures of the layout now because it's all intentionally efficient while not being over the top minimalist.

The one constant thing we do hear is "Your house is so tidy and clean."  That's pretty easy to do when your house is pretty small--we can vacuum the entire upstairs without having to unplug the thing!

Also, as I said, we haven't intruded the other bedrooms, so when we do have kids, they will have their own space.  We also might renovate the current downstairs office/exercise room into another bedroom, finish the bathroom down there, and then turn the small bedroom into the exercise room.

I'll end my ranting post by finishing where I started--you do you and don't worry about others may think. Find a floor plan that works for you, be intentional with things you purchase, and everything will be fine.

Your house sounds great! And thanks for the link!

I agree, no point in justifying my decision. I simply wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing seeing part of the picture :)

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2018, 11:26:05 AM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?  are you sure coworkers will know where you live? My coworkers have never seen my house. Beyond that, why is he so concerned with what other people think? challenge him on that. "So, if all your coworkers abusing animals, you'd start abusing animals just to fit in?" Don't need to be a lemming.

- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning? Buckets. Sinks. And what are the chances that EVERYONE gets food poisoning/flu at the same time and is throwing up at the same time? Plus, 1.5 baths exist.

- how to secure excellent stable neighbors if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive) neighborhood? Neighbors are a crap shoot no matter where you live. I live in a nice neighborhood, and on one side I have the unmedicated bipolar bitch who has 10+ year long feuds with everyone else on the block. The other side is an older man who's going to die of alcohol poisoning, a drug overdose, or liver failure. My friends who live 10 minutes from me in a less expensive area have better neighbors.

- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit? Air mattress, couch, hotel, Airbnb. Why are you going to buy a house that's large enough to accomidate something that happens once a year?
 You have to clean, heat, cool, and maintain it year round.


- how to give multiple kids their own space? Outside exists for a reason. Learning to live with other people is a skill, and it's a valuable one to have.

- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes? Define excellent. Because the school ratings really tell you about the demographics of the student body, not how good the teachers are.

- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist? Learn to be happy with less stuff. Multipurpose stuff as well. Clever use of space. Basements and attics are very nice as well if you have them.

- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite). be in the bathroom to begin with? Realistically, if you're fielding these types of questions, he's never going to agree to the house you're looking at.

- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances? Be realistic. Do you currently, regularly, actually do this? If no, it's isn't going to start. If yes, spread out around a couple rooms, be less formal, people sit wherever.

I don’t necessarily believe in the points that all of these questions put forth, but I would love to hear some counterpoints that make these objections seem irrelevant,or at least, unimportant. All of the above has been asked to me when I explain I would like to live in a smaller home. I can think of my own ways to refute these points but I’d live to hear from you smarties! Thanks :)

Sounds like you're either dealing with someone who absolutely don't get it, or you're really looking at places that are too small.

I think it’s a bit of both! And I like your points in red :)

And fwiw the objections are not from my husband so I’m welcome to ignore them eh! Lol

lifejoy

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 11:27:43 AM »
Did you and your partner actually grow up in McMansions?  If not, I imagine your parents successfully dealt with many of the problems they are now inventing for you, in which case, it seems a good answer might be that "we'll manage, just like you did!".

In general, I think you can probably also make a convincing argument that smaller homes are trendier now and that having one isn't necessarily such a social step "down" (which seems to be the concern behind quite a few of the questions you mention).

Things like managing food poisioning, "marital relations", etc are just grasping at straws.  I would try to shut down the conversation before things like that even come up.

When you do buy a home, make sure you talk up all the positive attributes of the home or the area to your relatives (such a walkable neighborhood!, so cozy when it's cold out!, such nice neighbors we met the other day!, cutest little shopping district nearby!).

I really like the idea of talking up all the positives :)

And you make a really good point- both me and DH grew up in huge homes so it’s possible our folks can’t envision happiness in a space much smaller. We will have to show them it can be done!

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2018, 11:29:45 AM »
Let's see.

Find an older small house with a lot of character. People will see it for what it is. Work hard to make it really cute and beautiful.

Smaller houses are great precisely because you don't hoard too much stuff. I've gotten better at practicing the one thing out for every one thing in rule. You'll get good at organizing stuff efficiently.

As far as guests, get a pull out couch with a bed, or get some fancy cots or something.

Get a house with 1.5 bathrooms.

Plenty of small houses have open spaces for entertaining. Shop around.

Neighbors? Thanks to Millinniels getting fed up with mcmansions, lots of them are reviving neighborhoods with older, smaller houses.

Most of all, if you're worried about what people think, come up with a standard, pithy, but inoffensive answer for when someone notices your small house.

Like... “it’s not the size, but how you use it!”

Or “do you ever find that people who buy big flashy things are overcompensating for something?”

LOL

thanks for your thoughtful answer, you’re helping me feel very positive about sticking to my guns instead of doing what’s expected of me.

lifejoy

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2018, 11:30:41 AM »
One of the reasons that many McMansions are so huge is that they are VERY poorly designed.   A 1500 sq ft house that is thoughtfully designed can feel much bigger than a poorly designed 3000 sq ft house.  See http://www.notsobighouse.com/ (and her books as well) for more on this.

Personally I think at least 1.5 baths (1.75 if you plan to have frequent overnight guests) is worth it.  Doesn't take up much more room but greatly improves convenience/quality of life.

Thanks for the link and the advice!!

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2018, 11:31:50 AM »
Since you and your husband are on the same page, the most useful answer to everyone else is probably not a logical argument but a response of "Thank you so much for caring about us! We look forward to having you over!" or some other non-answer that acknowledges that the questions are coming from a place of love and concern but you are not engaging with them.

The one exception might be the bathroom issue...that might be coming from someone who has a bathroom-related problem and is concerned about access when visiting, but doesn't want to get into details. Having access to two toilets can be a definite improvement in daily life, much more so than the other concerns which are all maybes, or once in a great while.

Two toilets does sound like a worthwhile investment.

Also: I love that non-answer answer!!

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2018, 11:32:39 AM »
Most of all, if you're worried about what people think, come up with a standard, pithy, but inoffensive answer for when someone notices your small house.

My go to is "I'm too lazy to take care of a big house and a big yard," and people seem to get a laugh out of that.

That is me in SPADES!!!

Too cheap, too!

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2018, 11:33:48 AM »
We moved from a ~4800 square ft house to a townhouse and I posted about some of the reasons / results in the following thread

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/right-size-my-life/

Not sure I would want to go down to 1 bathroom for something I owned but for a temporary rental I could make it work.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Thanks for the link! Sounds like a positive move!

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2018, 11:37:12 AM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!

- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning?
Good question, I can't remember this happening at all growing up though (5 in a house with a single bathroom). Realistically, I've found you can puke in a bucket if it gets that bad though.

- how to secure excellent stable neighbours if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive) neighbourhood?

- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit?
Hotel with a pool, that keeps the kids entertained

- how to give multiple kids their own space?
Parenting choice, personally I think my kids should interact more...

- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes?
smallest house in best neighbourhood?

- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist?
Come see my house, I have ingenious storage solutions that are fun DIY projects. Or jst incorporate designs from the tiny house movement in regular sized houses

- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite).
House coats...in hindsight I now realize I saw my parents doing this :(

- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances?
Rent out restaurants, it's less out of pocket than having a larger mortgage. Or host intimate dinner parties of 4. But really, do you actually like hosting large parties (I don't)
I live in 920 sf with a now finished basement. I have 3 bedrooms and a second bathroom in the basement suite (at one time I rented out the basement).

Its actually fun to retrofit the house to make it more livable. I have hidden alcoves in between the wall studs, for extra storage. I have pocket doors to maximize floor space. You get the idea.

As an aside, you don't have kids. You can be one of the smart people that buys a house and then moves into a larger house later on, if you change your mind. You can keep the original as a rental, its pretty common. Buying a house isn't a permanent thing, its just a few years of living arrangements.

People who complain are often short sighted. If you find it too small...you can move at any point. Meanwhile you'll pocket a lot of cash in reduced living expenses.

I love those ideas!!! Thanks so much! The renting out a restaurant or event space particularly resonates with me as I *love* hosting and planning parties and that would be a blast! Great idea.

Also I stopped being a DINK just over 5 months ago ;) so I guess I am not so smart, lol! (Just kidding)

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2018, 11:37:43 AM »
Give me a small mortgage or a paid for home any day over an big McMansion and a pile of debt.
Ever see a picture of Warren Buffetts house?

Yes, he’s a good example!

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2018, 11:48:54 AM »

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?

Be choosy about whom you invite over.  Make your house look awesome anyway.  Talk about how cheap your bills are :)

- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning?

Unlikely...but, ya know.  Pass a couple of people off to other homes that have additional bathrooms?  Sleep outside on the floor and take turns.  Use cleaned out ice cream buckets (my mom kept a stash for keeping by our beds when we were kids.  We didn't always make it to the bathroom to puke otherwise)

- how to secure excellent stable neighbours if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive) neighbourhood?

Do your best to talk to neighbors when you first look at a house to move into.  Ask around the prospective neighborhood about how quiet people are, problem neighbors, etc.

- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit?

Sleeper sofa and air mattresses; find a local air bnb to house them at; give up your own beds and camp out yourselves if that is more your preference

- how to give multiple kids their own space?

Bunkbeds on either side of room with curtains around the bottom for privacy.  Loft beds on either side with desks and headphones for privacy.  teepees for little kids are cute.  Headphones are key.  My family had 5 kids in 3 bedrooms.  Brother always had his own room...the weirdo.  Sisters all shared.

- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes?

Realize that schools are different, and it doesn't neccesarily make one better than the other; work at one so the kids can come with you; send them to online schooling or private school; homeschool them

- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist?

Cupboards, underbed storage, shed in the backyard, don't have junk, closet organizers, beds and bunkbeds with built in storage

- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite).

This one makes me lol...and I understand.  Have 'sex towels' in the bottom drawers of a nightstand for clean up right after, and keep an old pair of ratty undies and robe in your bedroom to slip down the hall inconspicuously after using the towels.  Full disclosure, we have 'sex towels' in the bottom drawers of both of our nightstands and i have passed that tip along before...lol

- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances?

Finger food only, a norden table from idea, or fancier fold out version, finger food and wine can be wicked classy....or just set up multiple tables (extras in living room for instance)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 11:51:33 AM by alewpanda »

kaypinkHH

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2018, 11:52:00 AM »
Yay smaller houses!!

When I was a kid I dreamed of having a McMansion. I had the dream floor plan and everything. After living in our tiny 700 sqft house (+ an additional 250 sqft finished basement suite we rented out), and now moving and looking at houses, I actually went to see a similar house to my "dream layout" and hated it. Give me a small house!

Tips for smaller house living:

Biggest tip: Get a house that will suit your life 90% of the time, and make it work for those one off times (guests etc.) vs the other way around.

Convertible furniture: We did not have a dining room, but we had a lovely ikea table thing that folded out in our living room the few times we hosted dinner parties. Our kitchen we really small, but we had a fold down table from the wall that doubled as a prep surface. (Not convertiable, but our apartment sized oven did a full turkey dinner!)

Guest space: Even our tiny little house had 2 bathrooms, but we didn't have access to the 2nd one at times, and we all survived. We rented out our basement suite on Airbnb, and booked it unavailable when people came to visit us. It was a 12'x20' room, with a double bed, and two small fold out couches. I think we counted at one point and between that suite, and the rest of our house, (one air mattress) we could have probably hosted 9-10 people. In the future we could have stopped renting out the basement and we could have made it into two rooms, one guest bedroom, and one rec room/den with fold out couches for more guests. As kids came in to the picture, we would make our guests stay on the fold-a-beds.

Outdoor space: Our tiny house meant we had a decent back yard for the area. We wow'd people with our beautiful backyard, so they would ignore the tiny kitchen. We did most of our hosting in the summer, which meant other people invited us over for the winter months!

Big dinner parities: In hindsight, if we had ever needed to host a big event, we could have booked out the airbnb suite and converted it into a big dining area! My grandparents used to do this for big family Christmas dinners (set up tables in the basement rec room. It was nbd).

People's opinions: Anytime someone goes "wow that is a tiny kitchen" you go "yes it is small {dramatic sigh}, it takes us 15 minutes to clean." Also, we used a cute colour scheme and matching decor (most sourced on kijiji/cheap stores), I think it made our place look nice. If a tiny place is clean and well organized, then people don't feel like it is small, they feel like it is cozy!

Storage: Dejunk Dejunk Dejunk. Every year we would do a huge purge. We weren't minimalists by any means, but keeping a handle on stuff is critical. Also, go vertical. We could have been smarter with a lot more vertical storage in some of the rooms.

I guess what it boiled down to for us was having a bonus room in the basement really gave us the flexibility to do whatever we wanted. The past year it worked as a guest suite/airbnb, but in the future could have turned into a rec room/third bedroom/GIANT DINING ROOM or even a master bedroom suite.

Oh last bit of advice...buy one of the smaller/older homes in the nice neighborhood...you get the benefit of the "good schools etc' and your home will have good resale value!  (Oh Prairie stash already said that :D)

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 12:09:59 PM »
Oh one last thing...in terms of judgey people.

I have some judgey people in my life, and the biggest thing I heard about our tiny house was our tiny kitchen. One "friend" was moving into a rental (I owned my little house at this point..not saying that is better, but this friend made a big deal about how she could never afford to buy etc.).  I went to help her move, and the houses were similar design, and I made a comment "I love it, it is just like my house" and she snarked back "Well my kitchen isn't as small as yours. I don't know how you live with such a tiny kitchen". It was such a rude comment, a mutual friend was there to witness it, and then whenever it naturally came up with the 2 friends I would say things like "We cooked dinner in our SUPER TINY KITCHEN the other night" or "we cleaned our TINY KITCHEN" , or "We did all of our meal prep this week, it was so hard in our TINY KITCHEN." Friend 2 and I would die laughing, and friend 1 had no idea she was the butt of a joke. Super passive aggressive but it made me happy.

Note that friend 1 never invited ANYONE over to her rental because she was embarrassed about how small/old it was.  She let her smaller sized house "ruin" a few years of her social life, whereas we made it work and loved every minute of it.

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2018, 12:27:07 PM »
The favourite of all the houses we have owned was 1300 sq ft., and followed the 'buy the worst house in the best neighbourhood' suggestion.  The rooms weren't huge, but the layout worked.  It had 1 and a half baths, and I will say that half bath was a plus during our Christmas of Norovirus.  A half bath fits in a very small space, and is pretty easy to shoe horn in sometimes.   If you can finish the basement, that will take care of future kids play/hangout space and guest space.

Our current house is 1600 sq. ft., (the largest we've ever owned) with a small kitchen and no formal dining area - just a 'great room'.  We've had up to 20 people for buffet style dinner - everyone just finds a spot to sit once the table is full.  No one has every refused to come because it is by necessity so informal.   : )  Our next house will be smaller again, and I will have no regrets about giving up the extra space.

Neighbours are definitely a crap shoot.  Even if they are wonderful when you move in, there is no guarantee they will stay.  We've lived through turnovers that went both ways.  I wouldn't pick a house based on immediate neighbours, but rather the feel of the entire neighbourhood.  Does it have the amenities you want?  How much traffic?  Transit service?  Could your kids walk to school, or will they be bused?  Do you see people standing outside, chatting with their neighbours?  (Hard to see in Canada in winter maybe, but if you'd driven by our street after our last snow dump, you would have seen all the neighbours out helping each other clear their driveways and catching up on all the gossip.

PBK's journal has a link to a container house - have you seen the hall bench/murphy bed rig there?  Genius use of space.

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2018, 12:54:54 PM »


I love those ideas!!! Thanks so much! The renting out a restaurant or event space particularly resonates with me as I *love* hosting and planning parties and that would be a blast! Great idea.

Also I stopped being a DINK just over 5 months ago ;) so I guess I am not so smart, lol! (Just kidding)
I keep forgetting that you have a new little bundle, I really need to start paying better attention. I have two myself, definitely changes things.

The smart move is to buy the bigger house later, if you change your mind, when you have all the kids you desire (I'm guessing you have a number between 1-10). If you buy it now with the intent of filling it with three kids, you'll be blessed with triplets on your third pregnancy. At which point you'll be house shopping with 5 kids in tow :(

The overall theme is to wait and buy the house you need when you need it. Buying a house for a future need is locking yourself into a path that may change.

I'm still in my temporary house 11 years on, now with a wife and two kids. Its interesting how perspective changes as we age. But like I tell my wife, we have the money to move whenever we decide this house doesn't work, then we back down because moving is more work than its worth ;)  (Until we move overseas in FIRE perhaps, the culmination of cheaper living is we can live abroad later on, with our kids)

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2018, 01:05:47 PM »
...

I'm not doing quotes around each of your questions, you'll just have to figure it out ;) Also I'm feeling a little snarky today.

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?
He will do his very best to not mock his colleagues for having giant, pointless homes when he is invited over.

- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning?
Assure them that you have a sizable stash of buckets. And bleach. Hey, they asked! If they insist on continuing the conversation, go into "the plan" in *excruciating* detail until they change the subject.

- how to secure excellent stable neighbours if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive) neighbourhood?
You don't want to expose your family to the kinds of values endemic in Those kinds of neighborhoods. Did you know the Stanford rapist came from a "nice" neighborhood like that? In seriousness, there are small homes (even apartments) in perfectly good neighborhoods if you look hard enough.

- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit?
Use the $$$ you're saving on your mortgage to put them up in a hotel. Or they can sleep on the floor. Or a tent in the yard. Their choice.

- how to give multiple kids their own space?
Put each kid in a storage tote. KIDDING. But as I mentioned on someone's "can our kids share a room" thread, "own space" does NOT have to be "own room." Kids have shared rooms for the entirety of civilization. And that way they get practice for college.

- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes?
Point them to Palo Alto, CA, which has experienced a rash of teenage depression and suicide, often traced back to the academic pressures they feel in the "excellent public schools." [https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/03/03/cdc-report-youth-suicide-rates-in-county-highest-in-palo-alto-morgan-hill/] But actually see above about nice neighborhoods... I went to great public schools (in the US) while my parents rented 2 BR apartments for 5 of us (for a short 2-year stint, a 3 BR). This will have more strength if you come up with some examples... 

- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist?
Why *not* be somewhat minimalist? A small house will have plenty of space to not have to be *super* minimalist. You aren't looking at "tiny houses" are you? Efficient shelving. Stuff under the bed. If worst really comes to worst, a storage unit for the long-term storage stuff does cost less than twice as much house...

- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite).
Buckets. Kidding! But seriously put on a robe and walk, don't run, to the nearest bathroom. Keep some wet wipes by the bed for on-the-spot emergencies. Where's the problem??? I'd be more concerned about noise...

- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances?
Buffet style instead of sit-down dinner. Rent out a space. Co-host with a McMansion friend (you cook, they clean!) Be an introvert and invite smaller groups. Or just invite smaller groups more frequently. Finally, my parents definitely had upwards of 20 people, seated at a table, in the 2-BR apartment's living room for their moving-away party... they lined up several folding tables with our dining table, close friends brought extra folding chairs. Great fun was had although at one point our Christmas tree was knocked over :O .  But it wasn't really a problem.

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2018, 01:17:08 PM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?
I've been to the homes of maybe 1-2 of the hundreds of people I've worked with. It's just not that typical anymore. Is this a small town? If anyone said anything, I'd flat out retort "we're looking to retire several years early thanks to this little house." You might have more tact and say something like "this little house is so easy to keep up with it allows us to focus more on work, family, and hobbies."

- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning?
Buckets for upper. Taking turns for lower. Builds character :) . Let's call this a twice-in-a-lifetime event. On those couple of occasions, how many tens of thousands of dollars would I have to pay you to negotiate resources with other family members instead of using the other bathroom?

- how to secure excellent stable neighbours if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive) neighbourhood?
Accept that neighbors are not a controllable factor. Even in a fancy neighborhood, you might live next to the person with the dog that yaps ALL NIGHT LONG. If the neighbor's yard looks cluttered, build a privacy fence or plant a hedge. Working class neighbors are much less likely to sue you for not sodding that bare part in the back yard.

- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit?
AirBNB has solved this problem for a fraction of the cost of buying, heating, cooling, insuring, and maintaining two extra bedrooms full-time. Offer to pay a few hundred for the rental since you're saving thousands on the house, but don't humblebrag ;)

- how to give multiple kids their own space?
You'll earn more of their appreciation giving multiple kids their own time with a parent. You'll afford the luxury of family time by not being a corporate overtime drone and achieving FIRE in a few years. Someday, the kids will appreciate you again for giving them their own inheritance.

- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes?
I live in one of the most segregated cities in the nation, in terms of socioeconomic status. However, standardized test scores for various neighborhood schools are all over the map. It seems some kids do poorly because of factors associated with poverty, but others do poorly because their upper-middle-class parents were too busy with the rat race to read them a half-dozen books a day.

- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist?
I'm looking at getting a "storage bed" with drawers underneath. Also, laundry or dining rooms can serve as expansion kitchen areas with spaces for coffee makers, blenders, crock pots, etc. Attics are your friend. As a last resort, consider that a backyard shed can be hand-built for less than $2k - much less than adding house square footage.

- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite).
Have a towel for immediate cleanup. Then just march down the hall. If anyone asks, just say you have to piss and look at them like "why are you so concerned about my pissing?" For a deeper dive on this subject, consider whether negative attitudes about sex are causing the shame that master bathrooms were sold to address. Remember that for most of human history, entire families lived and procreated in teepees or one-room huts. Back then, it had to be normal to know what one's parents did. Think we modern people are normal? What could be more dysfunctional than financing an extra $20,000 bathroom in the hope of avoiding the mere potential of certain after-sex emotions like shame?

- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances?
Depends how large of course. Look for a small house with a decent-sized dining area, and space sacrifices made elsewhere, such as bedroom/bathroom size. E.g. many newer houses have large drafty bathrooms and dining areas that are too small. This is backward IMO. Furniture choices also help.

I don’t necessarily believe in the points that all of these questions put forth, but I would love to hear some counterpoints that make these objections seem irrelevant,or at least, unimportant. All of the above has been asked to me when I explain I would like to live in a smaller home. I can think of my own ways to refute these points but I’d live to hear from you smarties! Thanks :)

I'm in a similar position with my SO, and this has been a good rehearsal. Thanks for bringing up these common arguments/excuses for housing waste.

ixtap

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2018, 01:18:20 PM »

1) Don't involved your personal value in the size of your house. If it is common to have colleagues over, just invite the colleague that most recently hosted you for a more intimate gathering, or use outdoor space for hosting.

2) buckets

3) don't be a snob. There are excellent stable working class neighborhoods throughout this country. I live in  HCOL and I can still tell you where a number of those neighborhoods are. What tends to destabilize them is gentrification, so get involved in the existing community, rather than courting higher class amenities and businesses.

4) choose the right layout. Floor space and convertible furniture are your friends. As are hotels and Airbnb.

5) how much space do you think they need? Over the bed tents can give a place to hide in a shared room.

6) there are excellent schools in working class neighborhoods. Do your research. Furthermore, the single best predictor of student success is parental involvement.

7) Again, layout and planning. However, you will likely find that you will prefer more and more minimalism. We find the best time to sort is when we have pulled everything out looking for that one thing we know we have somewhere. I won't let it go back where it came from without considering what we never use.

- condoms and wipes

- why do dinner parties have to be large? Invite another couple or family over and enjoy actually spending time with those specific people.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 02:44:38 PM by ixtap »

ysette9

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2018, 01:43:08 PM »
Our house is 3/2, about 1100 ft^2. We used to live in a 3/1 and having just second toilet is Such Luxury! Space has been a problem initially as e don’t have a garage and have had to spend a good amount of time declittering. The less we have though, to happier I am. It would be nice to have a bath attached to the master bedroom, but we have dealt with that for years now via towels or Kleenex. :)

I honestly don’t know why you should give a flying fuck about what your coworkers or anyone else thinks about the size of your house. That is such a high school thing to think about. We are confident adults around here who don’t need approval from the popular clique at school.

Our house was built in 1947 and was originally a 2/1 with an attached one car garage that was later converted. This was a very common size at the time it was built. Somehow many people raised their families in this size house siccessfully for what has been two generations now. I am sure you can figure it out also. :)

partgypsy

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2018, 02:19:48 PM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!
- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?

I always thought Britishy people eccentricity is a positive trait? Wouldn't it just be considered an interesting eccentric quirk? For goodness sake don't need to be like all those tasteless folk! Many people I know live in newer bigger houses. They still enjoy hanging out in my house and consider it homey and also exclaim about the plaster walls, 10 foot ceilings (insert other interesting feature your house may have).

- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning?

Even if you don't have 2 full baths, I do think having 2 (versus 1) toilet, as Martha Stewart would say, "a good thing." Might be something you can install after purchase.


- how to secure excellent stable neighbours if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive) neighbourhood?

I think people know where the ghetto is, but after that, it's a crap shoot. You can always after you visit a house check it out or even knock on doors. But even Rand Paul who lives in a tony neighborhood, crapped out in this department.

- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit?

Two options: accept the cost of getting a motel room for visiting guests, that you can now afford, due to saving all this money with a smaller home! Or be creative. I have just under 1500 square feet house. 3, bed and 2 bath and had 4 family members stay for a week. Niece slept on top bunk in youngest bedroom. I offered my mom my bed but she preferred the couch pull out in study. Brother slept on couch in living room and sister slept on cot in living room as well. Honestly the biggest pain was the kitchen was small for maneuvering when everyone wanted breakfast at the same time.

- how to give multiple kids their own space?

We have 3 bedrooms and have 2 kids so each got their own room. Also, having creative away spaces (sun room, den, tree house etc) where people can get away from each other is nice.

- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes?

Just do your research and find the best schools in the neighborhood you are living in. Parents also have a lot of influence (even just how much they read) on outcomes for children.

- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist?

I'm in a decluttering process. The more I declutter the happier I am and the nicer my house looks. Results may vary.

- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite).

I think for me having a close by bathroom is, a priority, unless you want to put a bidet in your bedroom.

- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances?

You need to be creative. I can barely fit 6-7 people around the table, but we have also set up a kids table in the study and split people up. You will probably not be able to have formal dinners with 30 people at wintertime. I don't know how much of a priority that is for you.

I don’t necessarily believe in the points that all of these questions put forth, but I would love to hear some counterpoints that make these objections seem irrelevant,or at least, unimportant. All of the above has been asked to me when I explain I would like to live in a smaller home. I can think of my own ways to refute these points but I’d live to hear from you smarties! Thanks :)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 02:23:29 PM by partgypsy »

GoConfidently

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2018, 04:02:50 PM »
I am well aware of the benefits of a smaller home. But I could use some help in refuting some of the alleged downsides!

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?

- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning?

- how to secure excellent stable neighbours if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive) neighbourhood?

- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit?

- how to give multiple kids their own space?

- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes?

- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist?

- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite).

- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances?

I don’t necessarily believe in the points that all of these questions put forth, but I would love to hear some counterpoints that make these objections seem irrelevant,or at least, unimportant. All of the above has been asked to me when I explain I would like to live in a smaller home. I can think of my own ways to refute these points but I’d live to hear from you smarties! Thanks :)
- Don’t invite colleagues over. Dinner out if entertaining is necessary.
- Home Depot orange buckets. $5 each and good for mopping and car washing until food poisoning becomes an issue.
- No one picks their neighbors. Bad ones happen everywhere.
- Hotels
- Backyard and local parks
- Excellent public schools exist outside of swanky neighborhoods. Buy in the fringes.
- What’s wring with being a minimalist?
- Tissues and a trash can. Or walk to the bathroom like an adult and take a shower. Is this an issue? I’ve never sprinted to the toilet after sex.
- Restaurant reservations

Gerard

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2018, 06:10:07 PM »
I can't help with everything, but a couple of thoughts:

1. Generally, urban and suburban Canada doesn't have a large gap between rich/"good" and poor/"bad" schools. Partly because the negative factors (lower SES, different family first language) correlate with the positive ones (parents needing a good education score to get into the country).

2. If you end up somewhere with no party room options, Loblaw's and its relatives usually have a "community kitchen" that could be fun to rent. You can even shoot your own cooking videos in some of them!

3. Do that northern-country thing and have all your big parties in the summer!

Good luck with your house search, however it turns out!

Retire-Canada

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2018, 06:58:12 PM »
I live in a small house with my GF and kitty. My only real complaint is one bathroom. If we had another toilet and sink we'd be golden.

Our house is definitely not impressive so we don't get any social status from that, but that's okay. The freedom to travel and the ability to retire earlier than normal will be totally worth it.

lifejoy

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2018, 07:36:51 PM »
Wow, this is my new favourite thread! Thank you so so much everyone for your thoughtful and ingenious answers. You’ve helped me feel more confident with my gut feeling, and also confirmed that a modest-sized home is for me!

But maybe two bathrooms :)

ixtap

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2018, 07:44:50 PM »
I live in a small house with my GF and kitty. My only real complaint is one bathroom. If we had another toilet and sink we'd be golden.

Our house is definitely not impressive so we don't get any social status from that, but that's okay. The freedom to travel and the ability to retire earlier than normal will be totally worth it.

Our boat has a vanity sink ingeniously concealed in the larger stateroom. We only use it to brush our teeth when we have company.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2018, 08:36:11 PM »
Our boat has a vanity sink ingeniously concealed in the larger stateroom. We only use it to brush our teeth when we have company.

It's not really the second sink that's important. It's the toilet, but if you are going to have a second toilet you might as well add a sink.

lifejoy

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2018, 09:33:40 PM »
It’s my in-laws, my parents, my friends... so hard to not buy the nicest X you can afford!

Well actually, not hard at all, but not everyone will “get” it.

lifejoy

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2018, 05:18:46 AM »
It’s my in-laws, my parents, my friends... so hard to not buy the nicest X you can afford!

Well actually, not hard at all, but not everyone will “get” it.

Uh...yeah...of course they don’t “get” it. If they did, they would *do* it. Most brilliant ideas will seem weird to the average person. Thinking and behaving outside the box always makes people uncomfortable.
People don’t like when others do things financially different from them, especially doing frugal things. Part of it is that it instantly makes them feel like you are judging them. They then need to put down your decisions in order to bolster their faith in their own choices.
You get used to it and you also train them over time to react differently. You will eventually learn to stop defending your decisions when you realize that there’s actually no need to.

As the saying goes: opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.
Being frugal is like the financial equivalent of being a vegan; it’s going to weirdly piss people off and they’re going to behave as if their somehow entitled to be judgemental about it even if it has zero impact on them.
Just don’t bother engaging people who are giving you their opinion for no real constructive reason, and definitely don’t get sucked into feeling like you need to justify yourself to them.

My “go to” response for almost all comments about my frugality choices is “I’m really good at math” and then the conversation pretty much ends unless they have a genuine interest in why I make the choices that I do.

Hopefully this is just one of many lifestyle choices that will puzzle and perturb those around you.
Try being a dentist who drives a used Corolla with roll up windows and who lives in a small and very dated row house in a neighbourhood so sketchy that it’s famous for sex workers and crack heads all over the main street, which is literally lined with payday loan shops and marijuana dispensaries.

I stopped giving a shit when I moved from the most prestigious neighbourhood in town to the sketchiest, and bloody everyone had a stupid opinion about it and it bored me pretty quick, so I just stopped engaging unless their questions felt genuine and curious instead of incredulous and judgey.

Lastly, the more you own your decisions instead of defending them, the easier you will find it to make those decisions without being influenced by the opinions of others, and that is a powerful thing.

I dig your perspective!

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2018, 05:21:08 AM »

- how for husband (in high-earning career) to save face when workplace peers and close friends live in McMansions?  1st, let your SO know that you absolutely love a small home and would hate a big one; 2nd de-friend anyone that judgey, you don’t need them.

- how to survive with one bathroom if the whole family gets food poisoning? If you can’t get 2 toilets, at least see if you can find a split toilet from the bathroom/shower.

- how to secure excellent stable neighbours if not buying into a really good (read: more expensive) neighbourhood? Find the best place in the worst neighborhood and make an effort to smile and be nice to people. The old, we’re new, here are cookies never hurts.

- how to comfortably house guests, especially the 4-7 (7 if future spouses come) close family members that live far away but we love to have visit? Sofa beds and air mattresses but more importantly, send their asses to Airbnb’s close by. Let everyone know how Smalls your place is, they’ll stay somewhere else.

- how to give multiple kids their own space? Lofts and bunk beds. Do lots of things outside the house. Give each kid alone time with each parent, special kid dates.

- how to get kids attending excellent public school if not buying into a neighbourhood with bigger nicer homes? Do your research well and be prepared to bus them or drive them. Also, get them tutors so that even if not a rich school, they are in the advanced classes of a mediocre school.

- how to store all your stuff and not have to be super minimalist? Be as minimalist as you can be anyways, we all have too much stuff. Otherwise, get IKEA furniture with storage.

- how to have adult relations with your partner and not have to run down the hall to the bathroom afterwards? (See: living without a master bedroom ensuite). Focus on the hot sex and don’t care about the journey, your place is small, you don’t have far to go.

- how to host large dinner parties (and in general be social and have large groups over) during Canadian winter (can’t eat outside) or other poor weather circumstances?  Get one of those tables that can expand and set it up in the living room or whichever space has the most room. Or rent cheap places to host events. Your bathroom situation might make big parties tough. Otherwise, join forces with someone that has space and do more work.


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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2018, 06:08:53 AM »
We live in approximately 1300 sq ft 3BR/1.5BA. We have 3 full timers living here (including one kid) and another kid visits on the weekends. The extra toilet is, in my opinion, a necessity. The stomach flu experience of 2016 taught us that. All of our family live nearby, so we do not host overnight guests, but we do host family get-togethers regularly, with 12-14 people on average. We set up a long table in our living room to eat, and if it's a kid's birthday party or something with presents, we remove the table later to make room for other activities.

Honestly, the most judgment we've gotten about our home has come from my mom, and it was directed at our outdated kitchen. We bought the worst house on the nicest block we could afford, and it needs updating. One day she sat in my kitchen and stated "I would have gutted this room before I even moved in, if I were you. I don't know how you can stand to live like this." ("Like this" being with 1970s cabinets and no dishwasher.) I flatly reminded her that my outdated kitchen allows me to loan her thousands of dollars every year when she lives beyond her own means. That shut her up quick.

lifejoy

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Re: Help me address these objections to having a smaller home
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2018, 09:10:31 AM »
We live in approximately 1300 sq ft 3BR/1.5BA. We have 3 full timers living here (including one kid) and another kid visits on the weekends. The extra toilet is, in my opinion, a necessity. The stomach flu experience of 2016 taught us that. All of our family live nearby, so we do not host overnight guests, but we do host family get-togethers regularly, with 12-14 people on average. We set up a long table in our living room to eat, and if it's a kid's birthday party or something with presents, we remove the table later to make room for other activities.

Honestly, the most judgment we've gotten about our home has come from my mom, and it was directed at our outdated kitchen. We bought the worst house on the nicest block we could afford, and it needs updating. One day she sat in my kitchen and stated "I would have gutted this room before I even moved in, if I were you. I don't know how you can stand to live like this." ("Like this" being with 1970s cabinets and no dishwasher.) I flatly reminded her that my outdated kitchen allows me to loan her thousands of dollars every year when she lives beyond her own means. That shut her up quick.

People used to always ask when we were going to gut our 70s kitchen.
I used to always do the confused-dog head-tilt and say “I’ve never looked at a kitchen cupboard and though wistfully ‘I would enjoy you more than luxury vacation’. They’re just cupboards, they open, they close, they hold cans. It’s not a complicated job.”

Now I would be far more blunt and say “obviously I don’t give a flying fuck about cupboards”, but I’m getting problematically direct as time goes on.

Funnily enough though, I am incredibly picky about the esthetic of my home. Cupboards and “finishes” just aren’t a key part of my esthetic, and I simply don’t care about what other people think my house should look like. I like it to look the way *I* want it to, and I think it’s beautiful.

We all have our priorities.
My whole point is that other people’s priorities simply don’t matter.
It’s not that I think luxury cupboards/countertops or having a big home shouldn’t matter to anyone, it’s that they don’t matter to me, and what matters to me isn’t anyone’s damn business. Period.

I mean, I have a rich and beautiful original art collection. My house looks like a bloody art gallery, and I don’t walk around other people’s houses and ask them when they’re going to upgrade from Big Box Store generic prints to original artworks.
Maybe they don’t give a flying fuck about art and find the print from Ikea pretty. That’s cool, that’s their jam. There’s no law that says that people need to care one iota about art.

Besides, the more we’re all the same, the more boring we all are. Plus that whole phenomenon of exaggerating small details becomes an issue. The more everyone has the same big open-concept homes with similar finishes, the more people notice the differences in size, layout and finishes and conflate their importance.

Granted, this is now a little tangential to the OP’s main questions, but it still speaks to the concern of addressing people’s useless opinions about her choice of home.

I like it.
1. Don’t care about what people expect or think.
2. Make your home special to you in a way that you care about.

Hooray :)