The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: outdoorsyfreedom on August 24, 2018, 08:17:42 AM
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Hello! Thanks for reading my story! I hope you can help with some thoughts/tips/advice - as I am at a loss!
First, some background: My husband and I make just under 200K/year combined. I went to school for 8 years and incurred a mountain of student loan debt in that time. My husband brought no debt into our marriage. I found MMM about 2 years ago (wish it was sooner!) when I realized that we shouldn't have to work our whole lives while making this much money. Everything he says makes sense to me and I am always working to adapt his ideas into our lives. My husband does not read MMM (he doesn't like his writing style) or any other personal finance resources, for that matter. He has never been a huge spender, but when he wants something, he is very fussy until he gets it. Enter "Jack", my husband's friend who loves sports cars, giant pick ups and fishing boats - none of which my husband ever mentioned wanting to me before Jack came along.
The problem: My husband now has his heart set on a fancy new sports car, so he can go "riding with Jack" Specifically, a souped up Camero for around 60K. (!!!). He says, "with all the money we make, and how hard I work, we can afford it and I deserve it! Jack agrees!" In addition to Jack agreeing, he also gets his other co workers and friends on his side. I don't understand cars enough to see why this is necessary. To him it HAS to be this model, no compromising. And to top it all off, this stupid car will hardly get driven! He drives a company vehicle for his job - so only when he has somewhere else to go/something else to do with out me (I won't drive in it).
I have tried to talk him out of it, talk to him about alternatives, and talk to him about a less fancy car that we can buy used, all with no luck. He wants this car. And Jack is on the side lines egging him on. I no longer know what to do and am on the verge of caving him. We would have to finance this car (currently the only debt is the remainder of my student loans and the mortgage). I am thinking, if possible on a car like this, of attempting to compromise with a lease. That way he can have his fun for a few years at significantly less of a cost, but I doubt he will agree.
What do you guys think? Any suggestions on what I can do? Thanks in advance for your help!
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MOD EDIT: Merged Duplicate Posts.
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Maybe you could show him a calculation like this - https://www.budgetworksheets.org/invest/invest.php?amount=60,000
If you plug in $60k at 6% for five years, you would have $80k. So his $60k car is costing more than he thinks, and that's not even counting insurance, registration, maintenance, etc.
It's hard to talk someone out of their toys. My brother-in-law spent $35k on a Harley, and then I found out that they have a 72-month loan on their Toyota RAV-4, which they had just leased for the previous three years. Not too smart.
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I think you need to sit down and have a very serious talk about what both of your priorities are for the future. If he wants to keep working forever and you don't, then you need to separate finances. I know several married couples that do this successfully. That would mean he could get the car but would be 100% responsible for paying for it while contributing 50% to shared, agreed upon expenses (like the house, groceries etc). Then if it's his decision and your not in support of it, he is footing the bill and you can continue to save with your income. If your husband doesn't care about retiring early you can't force that to be his priority just like he can't force the car to be yours.
Now on the other hand if you sit down and he DOES want to retire early maybe showing him a timeline and how the car affects that timeline would be a good illustration to drive the point home.
Good luck!
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Presumably Jack's car is a 2 seater. I would suggest your husband plant his ass in the passenger seat, then they can actually talk while they "go out together". Driving in separate cars and then meeting up later to talk about what happened while you were driving separately seems dumb to me but I'm not a car person.
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To be perfectly honest it doesn't sound like retiring early is something you discussed prior to marriage. I think it is perfectly normal for him to want a 'cool' car, and you can't expect him to change his life completely. It's unfortunate that you decided on this lifestyle after marriage, would have been much better to discuss first. I am not saying that its your fault you decided on it after, just that it is inconvenient.
I say have a serious talk about financial goals, and although you guys probably won't 100% agree, you can at least try to meet in the middle. If neither of you compromises, maybe separate finances and just split bills. My mother does that with her husband and it works very well.
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Us boys like our toys.
Sorry, you're probably not going to come up with a good argument against his line of thinking. It'll take time and perseverance to turn that train around. As the other poster suggested, separate finances aren't a bad place to start such that you can minimize the damage on your goals.
As a former car guy, I can relate. But eventually I realized that most car culture is just an excuse for guys to get together to talk about themselves. I still very much enjoy talking about myself on a regular basis with the guys, but I've figure out how to do it cheaper. Cars eventually gave way to motorcycles which gave way to bicycles.
I still spend a crazy amount of money on bicycles, but it's nowhere near $60k. And I can still hang out and talk about myself and my bicycles for hours on end.
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I'd usually recommend this thread -
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-to-convert-your-so-to-mmm-in-50-awesome-steps/
but looking at no. 21 you've been though most of those steps already.
Have you and your husband worked out exactly what the car will cost, in lost investments, depreciation and running costs? How does that fit into your current budgets? What are you giving up for this car, in terms of extra years worked or other things forgone?
Would your refusal to ride in the Camaro cause future friction? How would you and your husband handle that?
Is there anything you can do to find out about whether a pickup and fishing boat will be the next "I need it"s?
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Your husband uni-laterally spending 1/3 of your HH income seems...bizarre! Yet I agree that you will find certain limits to what you can dictate he experience because of the initial understandings of the marriage.
If there is no other dimension on which to compromise, I would argue that you at least figure out a way to pay cash for the vehicle. Show a willingness to sacrifice. Express reminders that you are a team, and that you want to find a way for this purchase to align with the prudent values that have motivated you paying off your debt.
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That car is nothing other than a "Toy". You do not borrow money for toys.
If he can't pay cash for it, he can't afford it.
Perhaps he should start setting money away weekly / monthly for his new toy fund. I'll bet by the time he has $60K sitting in the fund, that Camaro will be about the last thing he will want to spend it on?
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A Camaro is not what I'd call a "fancy" car and I'd never pay $60k for one. You could get a new Corvette for that much. It's also more than we spent on our Porsche...
I'm going to assume he's talking about the Camaro ZL1, as I don't think there's another one that costs that much. 650 hp sounds awesome, but it's essentially attached to a boat anchor (4,120 lb). The ZL1 has been available since 2012 so we have some real world depreciation numbers. Turns out the ZL1 has not been a value-preserving classic. Five year old ZL1s are priced at under $35k. So you're looking at losing $5k+/year to depreciation alone. If he's really set on a ZL1 the used ones are a much better deal, as they've already lost a ton of value and are only a few tenths of a second slower in acceleration. All of them get terrible fuel economy.
Tell you what, there's a reasonable alternative for the guy who wants a Chevy muscle car with 600+ hp. You can get a 2009 Corvette ZR1 for under $60k. 638 hp and weighs a much more reasonable 3324 lb. It accelerates better and probably handles better than the Camaro ZL1. It is actually a collectors car and won't lose any value. And it's waaaaay cooler than a brand new Camaro that just anyone can buy.
Or maybe that's too old of a car for him? No problem, the 2015 Corvette Z06 also has 650 hp and actually gets 29 mpg on the highway! Available for under $65k. Though likely still depreciating, it won't be as bad as a brand new Camaro.
If you want a cheaper counter offer look at the previous generation Corvette Z06. The oldest ones (2006) are available for under $35k and still have 505 hp. Not bad! There are so many cheaper and better ways to get a nice sports car than a brand new Camaro. The Camaro is just such an uninspired choice. "Jack" clearly is not a man of refined tastes.
Obviously the best outcome is for him to give up on the idea entirely, but if that doesn't pan out then hopefully the above gives you some ideas to divert his attention to less expensive (but actually more cool) options.
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He says, "with all the money we make, and how hard I work, we can afford it and I deserve it!
I would discuss what he means by "we can afford it." (Other than, "the dealer will approve us financing it.")
You say you'd have to finance this car, so "we can afford it" clearly doesn't mean, "we have enough cash sitting around doing nothing to pay for this car and its upkeep." That suggests that affording the Camaro would mean you could no longer afford something else. What would that something else be? Your vacation every year till the car is paid off? A year of retirement? Is there a trade-off you could both live with?
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The concerning thing for me is that he wants to do what other people tell him to do. If it was just a one time thing maybe, but where does it stop? What else is Jack going to try to get him to buy? If he can't or won't have a conversation about his life goals than separate accounts are probably best. But he might resent you later if you retire early and he's still paying for his toys. That's why this isn't really about the car.
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Tldr; I recommend spending <60k on a classic antique car instead. Justification below.
Current "car guy" here, I'll attempt to weigh in
My "car guy"-ness is not about new things, I take old things and put a lot of hours and sweat into restoring them over years of work. Eventually you end up with something you've turned every bolt on, saved from the junkyard, and you can be immensely proud of it, for well less than the cost of that new camaro (if you're smart about it)
Anyway, my $.02
I see two separate problems here
1. Convincing him this is dumb
2. Him gracefully exiting the situation with his peers
1. Can be achieved with a good discussion about FIRE, life goals, lost opportunity costs, the true cost of this machine (really well over 100K, there are posts that will help calculate), most importantly the well founded psychological evidence that after a couple months it will bring him absolutely no further happiness.
Assuming you get through that, you're stuck with problem 2. Unfortunately to his peer group, cars & toys = manliness, wife saying no = bitch wife, wife winning the argument = dickless husband to be mocked. (Not true, but it sounds like that's his social circle)
So to really have a win here, he needs to get SOME kind of toy, OR, have a good story to his friends about where it's going instead (vacation or something fatherly)
One possible solution I see, is to get a 1960s classic muscle car.
Why this is better?
- loans can be secured through your local credit union or bank relatively easily
- It is an appreciating asset, rather than depreciating. Worst case is keeps up with inflation.
- Classic car insurance will cost FAR less (like 90% less)
- Antique car registration in many states is cheaper
- it will cost you less than $60K (especially if you can deviate from camaros or mustangs and into less "iconic" cars, which are still just as cool)
- You can both retain your pride, and he'll actually be the envy of his friends because classic cars are cooler
- when this fad passes, you can sell it for relatively little loss
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Your husband definitely needs some sense knocked into him. If you're going to spend $60,000 on Chevy, why not get a Corvette?
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If he wants exactly what he wants, no compromising... then he should have stayed single.
Marriage is compromise.
You have deeper issues than just "he wants this, I don't." The main issue right here is that you are willing to bend and compromise to get a used or cheaper model of car toy, but he refuses to consider anything other than X.
Ask him why it is okay for him to not compromise. Ask him why it's okay to listen to everyone else outside of his marriage, but his own spouse's concerns and offers to bend are not important?
And then ask yourself if this is the way your relationship has been, and will be going forward.
It's not just a car/toy issue; it is a "how we deal with disagreements and respect each other's opinions on decisions in our marriage" issue.
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It looks like the forum double posted this, I'll put this in both threads
Tldr; I recommend spending <<60k on a classic antique car instead. Justification below.
Current "car guy" here, I'll attempt to weigh in
My "car guy"-ness is not about new things, I take old things and put a lot of hours and sweat into restoring them over years of work. Eventually you end up with something you've turned every bolt on, saved from the junkyard, and you can be immensely proud of it, for well less than the cost of that new camaro (if you're smart about it)
Anyway, my $.02
I see two separate problems here
1. Convincing him this is dumb
2. Him gracefully exiting the situation with his peers
1. Can be achieved with a good discussion about FIRE, life goals, lost opportunity costs, the true cost of this machine (really well over 100K, there are posts that will help calculate), most importantly the well founded psychological evidence that after a couple months it will bring him absolutely no further happiness.
Assuming you get through that, you're stuck with problem 2. Unfortunately to his peer group, cars & toys = manliness, wife saying no = bitch wife, wife winning the argument = dickless husband to be mocked. (Not true, but it sounds like that's his social circle)
So to really have a win here, he needs to get SOME kind of toy, OR, have a good story to his friends about where it's going instead (vacation or something fatherly)
One possible solution I see, is to get a 1960s classic muscle car.
Why this is better?
- loans can be secured through your local credit union or bank relatively easily, or if cheaper you can pay cash
- It is an appreciating asset, rather than depreciating. Worst case is keeps up with inflation.
- Classic car insurance will cost FAR less (like 90% less)
- Antique car registration in many states is cheaper
- it will cost you less than $60K (especially if you can deviate from camaros or mustangs and into less "iconic" cars, which are still just as cool)
- You can both retain your pride, and he'll actually be the envy of his friends because classic cars are cooler
- when this fad passes, you can sell it for relatively little loss
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Your husband definitely needs some sense knocked into him. If you're going to spend $60,000 on Chevy, why not get a Corvette?
Ha ha ha exactly!
I agree with Magnet and I also 2nd his point about a good DISCUSSION. Key word!!! Not you coming in saying NO THIS CAR IS STUPID, not him coming saying BUT I WANNA BUY ITTTT, but just a normal discussion where you both discuss your needs/wants/future plans.
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Miata is the answer to everything!
They just came out with a brand new one that goes even faster. And its only half price of the camero, hell he could get one for both of you. (maybe lend it to jack on the weekends?)
But seriously though, who gives fuck what Jack thinks? Itis your marriage, and between you two what you do with your money. I've never heard of a marriage where a person can spend that kind of money without getting approval from their spouse. Whats worse is this is a toy (I assume you have other cars) its not like you went out and blew 60k on a DP for a rental property or something. Have the difficult discussion. He does not have to be on the MMM band wagon but its not ok for him to disregard what you want in this sort of a decision.
Maybe try renting a fancy sports car for the weekend and see if that scratches his itch. Heck let him rent a car 4x a year, probably would give him more variety and save you a bunch of money.
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Is your husband at all mechanically inclined? Sounds like your husband was not a "car guy" prior to Jack coming along, and I get the impression that Jack isn't a car guy either but rather a car snob.
There is absolutely no reason your husband needs to get a brand new Camaro, even if that is the specific car he wants. The current model has been out for a few years, so used ones are available. The previous generation was no slouch either, and can be had relatively cheaply. Are you able to give any more specifics about the particular Camaro he is wanting and what kind of driving he'll be doing? Then maybe we can put together a list of comparable used cars that could cost significantly less.
While I don't know you, your husband, or Jack, I get the impression that the "car guy" thing is a passing fancy rather than a life-long passion. In that case, IF you can't convince him to abandon the toy car pursuit entirely, a lease may be a less-costly option.
For full disclosure, I am a car guy. I have a toy car that initially cost $2500, but I've spent several times that in modifications. This has pushed out FIRE for sure! However, this was all done with full disclosure with my spouse and we both get to enjoy it (her first track day is in a couple weeks).
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If he wants exactly what he wants, no compromising... then he should have stayed single.
Marriage is compromise.
You have deeper issues than just "he wants this, I don't." The main issue right here is that you are willing to bend and compromise to get a used or cheaper model of car toy, but he refuses to consider anything other than X.
Ask him why it is okay for him to not compromise. Ask him why it's okay to listen to everyone else outside of his marriage, but his own spouse's concerns and offers to bend are not important?
And then ask yourself if this is the way your relationship has been, and will be going forward.
It's not just a car/toy issue; it is a "how we deal with disagreements and respect each other's opinions on decisions in our marriage" issue.
This.
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I feel like there are a lot of non-money issues at work here, as well as some straightforward money stuff. I agree that you should check out the thread about getting your spouse on board.
I think what happened is that you were very spendy, so you married a very spendy man. Now you don't want to be spendy anymore and he is still the guy you married, so now you want him to change. It's also significant that you brought lots of debt to the relationship and he didn't, so he may feel in a way that he has license to incur his own debt via financing a fancy car. I know you say it's all this guy Jack's influence, but I don't think that's true at all, because your husband has mind of his own, and you also say " He has never been a huge spender, but when he wants something, he is very fussy until he gets it. " I think being "fussy" until you get what you want is pretty much the hallmark of a high spender.
I'm also curious about what your communication is like, especially around money. Do you talk about goals? Do you budget and track net worth together? Do you have joint accounts or keep things separate? Where do you each want to be in 10 years? Do you have regular meetings about personal finance, and if so, are they super emotional or calm and logical? Do you feel like you have a parent/child dynamic? Do you check in with each other before making decisions? It's hard for me to imagine that you're 100% on the same page with everything else, and super open and communicative around every issue, except money.
Have you asked your husband why he wants this stuff all the sudden? Is he unhappy about something? I think without understanding all the underlying stuff it's hard to give advice on this. Keep us updated! We want to help!
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From a financial viewpoint, that car sold for about $3,200 in 1960. It has appreciated at a rate of about 5.25%
not too bad a return. The car should continue to appreciate if cared for and mileage is limited. Cars like this are considered investments to most people who purchase them.
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From a financial viewpoint, that car sold for about $3,200 in 1960. It has appreciated at a rate of about 5.25%
not too bad a return. The car should continue to appreciate if cared for and mileage is limited. Cars like this are considered investments to most people who purchase them.
That's only if you hold for 50+ years
For the first 25 years, you'll take a loss
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This thread is making me nauseous with anxiety. Posting to follow while I go get popcorn and praise God that this isn't my circus.
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From a financial viewpoint, that car sold for about $3,200 in 1960. It has appreciated at a rate of about 5.25%
not too bad a return. The car should continue to appreciate if cared for and mileage is limited. Cars like this are considered investments to most people who purchase them.
I'd be careful about buying a 1960 classic car and expecting the value to continue to rise. The 12 year old boys who fell in love with the car when it first came out turned 70 this year. They don't have too many car buying years left before the market starts to shrink.
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It doesn't sound like this has anything to do with cars at all - this sounds like it might be a purchase intended to demonstrate wealth. It's more about impressing people than the actual thing.
You don't mention if he doesn't like MMM ideals along with the writing style, but that's a pretty important distinction.
Without knowing the income split and how the two outstanding debts compare to this toy car cost, it's tough to gauge what's really going on, but my guess is there is some pent up frustration between you two having to do with unspoken differences in financial goals. Sounds like Jack is having a pretty big influence - is Jack paying cash for all his toys? Is your husband getting frustrated with paying down your student debt? How long has your combined income been where it is? Is this situation relatively new to you both?
Sounds like you guys need to get on the same page on your financial goals, and compare them to the apparent financial goals of the people you guys are spending time with. If your "friends" are suggesting that you take on 60k of debt on a depreciating asset, it's fair to assess their financial situations. BTW, cars like this are a gateway - there is so much more shxt you have to have once you have the toy.
Just curious - what was your husband like pre-Jack? Jack sounds like one of these exciting, charismatic people that shows up and inspires you to do a bunch of things you wouldn't have before. It's worth taking a step back to see who is really calling the shots.
Having been down a similar road myself (hanging out with friends while playing with noisy, fast toys), my own experiences with impressing friends while doing activities of an automotive or mechanical nature, my best results have come from renting a cooler toy than my friends had and then doing something with my rented toy that they couldn't do with their toys. Or buying something cheap that I *could* afford, and becoming skillful at using it. In the end, the cars all get crashed, or their engines blow up, or they collect dust while you raise your family, and all you're left with are the stories and the photos.
Maybe send Jack and your husband off for a weekend in a rented Ferrari or Hellcat (or whatever ridiculous car floats their boat), then buckle down and get one of those big debts taken care of.
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From a financial viewpoint, that car sold for about $3,200 in 1960. It has appreciated at a rate of about 5.25%
not too bad a return. The car should continue to appreciate if cared for and mileage is limited. Cars like this are considered investments to most people who purchase them.
I'd be careful about buying a 1960 classic car and expecting the value to continue to rise. The 12 year old boys who fell in love with the car when it first came out turned 70 this year. They don't have too many car buying years left before the market starts to shrink.
A significant portion, possibly majority, of the market for 60s mustangs and camaros is 16-18 year old boys who loved them as their first cheap beat up cars in the 70s, those guys are in their late 50s with plenty of years left.
And the stuff from the 40s and 50s still hasn't exactly dropped to zero
Likewise, stuff from the 80s is starting to rise, especially 4x4 stuff like IH scouts, broncos, Toyota trucks, etc. For some reason.
Anyway, i would never buy a car as an investment more than I would buy jewelery or art as an investment, but you can at least expect a classic car to keep up with inflation instead of losing 70% of what you put into it in 10 years like a $60K Camaro would
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Out of curiosity, how big was the mountain of debt you brought to the marriage and how much do each of you make? Also, what’s your current spending like?
You’re obviously a team, but if any of those numbers are very extreme it could impact your decision making.
People have a LOT of interests and hobbies that most people will never understand, which is why everyone’s hobbies aren’t the same. I’m sure every person here has some interests that the rest of us would internall think, “omg why would they waste their time with that?” It’s what makes us unique. Yes, unfortunately some cost more than others.
I love the new ZL1’s and their performance is remarkable. I do agree with the others that there are some other affordable or less depreciable options.
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compromise. Let him rent out a car a couple of times a month for a few months. He'll probably get the thrill out of his system by then. Show him the trajectory of your fire path if he rents a few times vs. leasing vs. owning. you can show him this trajectory on all major purchases.
Have you discussed when you both want to FIRE? Is this purchase going to push out that date? By how much?
another tack would be talking up MMM to Jack......show him that FIREing is the new cool. Only "losers" own expensive stuff which forces themselves to work decades longer. of course there are always going to be people who are wealthy enough to have all the things AND FIRE, but is Jack one of those people? I'm not saying you should take down to him about his purchases, but talk up your FIRE plans.
Like, "Have you heard of MMM? It's this guy who saved up a big chunk of his money every year and was able to retire in his early thirties! So, I did some calculations and figured if I save X% for the next Y years, I can retire by Z!!" If he is truly a friend he would want you/husband to reach your goals. If he is still, "Buy the expensive car that is not a necessity and push your FIRE date out a couple of years because I said so." then, he is not a friend and really out to destroy you. Jack sounds competitive. I bet if he knew you guys were on a path to FIRE, he would change his ways and try to reach FIRE sooner than you. Which, is not a bad thing, for him, and definitely better for you.
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compromise. Let him rent out a car a couple of times a month for a few months. He'll probably get the thrill out of his system by then.
Ooh you are a smart cookie. Nice suggestion.
I am curious what the husband would say if OP wanted to drop $60k on a nice present/toy for herself.
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is most everyone here under the assumption that the car will depreciate like a new car off the lot? Because that isn't the case. This car will be worth at least $60K or more for the next 20 or 30 years or more. Buying it is much like putting money in a savings account with a 1% yield. Big deal.
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Hey everyone! Thanks for all of your responses! You have all offered some perspective on the situation for me to think about and I really appreciate all your help! I also appreciate those of you who offered alternatives! I will be looking into those as well.
Some of you had additional questions in your posts that I will try to answer:
-In regards to money discussions before/after marriage - we have always talked about money and approached it as a team. Before marriage, we did not know specifically about FIRE or the community, but we discussed working and saving a lot so we could cut down to part time at some point (undefined) and enjoy more life less work. It was me researching the best way to do this that I found MMM and the FIRE community. A lot of it can seem very extreme in terms of frugality and my husband does not like that, where I am more flexible. I have not and would never expect him as frugal as a lot of you and MMM - that's just not him. But I do still expect him to be reasonable. He was never a big super spender and always made sure to have savings. That's a lot of the reason this car is so shocking - it seems rather uncharacteristic in terms of money and what he's always says he wants/doesn't want in terms of cars.
-In regards to my loans - my husband and I have been together for 12 years, married for 3. He was with me through my entire education and knew how much debt I accumulated. We had a plan together to pay it off within 6 years after graduation. The total amount was 190K. We are now at about 80K, with a pay off date ahead of time. Yes, there are times he makes me feel guilty about the debt, but he knew about it all and it was never a secret. Of the money we make, I am the higher income earner. All our money became joint when we got married. I always thought we were on the same page as money arguments were rather few and far between, but apparently, I missed something along the way.
-In regards to Jack - I hate mentioning him in this and bringing him up, but I felt he was important because as he and my husband hung out more, I started to hear more about him and his toys. I understand that they can be tempting and fun. I don't know if they are in debt from them or not. But any time we try to talk about this situation, my husband brings up Jack, what he has, and what he thinks my husband should get for his own toy chest. I do worry that this is the first and eventually the chest will need to be filled. I do not know if this is a one time thing or not. And I frankly could not care less about what Jack thinks since he does not have the specifics to our financial life. But he is influencing my husband so it is influencing our lives. I would have said before Jack, my husband was not a car guy. He liked to look, but it never went beyond that. But he loves Jack's car (Charger) and wants his own. My personal opinion, is that he is trying to "keep up with the Joneses" and match Jack on his toys. He denies that.
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is most everyone here under the assumption that the car will depreciate like a new car off the lot? Because that isn't the case. This car will be worth at least $60K or more for the next 20 or 30 years or more. Buying it is much like putting money in a savings account with a 1% yield. Big deal.
This assumes that the car is well maintained and continues to be in good condition. OP's husband doesn't sound like a gearhead and probably lacks the knowledge and skills to care of it on his own, which means shelling out more on to keep it mint condition.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
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is most everyone here under the assumption that the car will depreciate like a new car off the lot? Because that isn't the case. This car will be worth at least $60K or more for the next 20 or 30 years or more. Buying it is much like putting money in a savings account with a 1% yield. Big deal.
Okay, perhaps we have somewhat different assumptions from reading the OPs original post.
My husband now has his heart set on a fancy new sports car, so he can go "riding with Jack" Specifically, a souped up Camero for around 60K. (!!!).
I read the fancy new sports car as meaning at '18 or '19 Camero. As far as I know these do depreciate relatively rapidly in the early years after purchase.
Am I correct in understanding that your reading was that OP's husband wants to buy a new-to-him classic Camero (from decades ago)? If so, I'd agree that in that case the car is unlikely to further depreciate if properly maintained.
From the info currently posted, I'm not sure we can confidently conclude whether the car being discussed is a new-off-the-lot or old-but-new-to-OP's-husband car.
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He wants a 2018 Camero.
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Gotcha. In that case I was say significant depreciation seems likely (although perhaps some folks with more car experience can weigh in).
I'm sorry I don't have any particular advice of my own to offer, the fights about money and long term priorities as a couple are the hardest ones.
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Thanks for filling us in! You have my sympathy OP, you're in a really tough position and your husband is putting you there. IMO, when you become a partnership you do so with the understanding that you each have to take responsibility for your own lives, as well as for each other (plus kids if you have them). Instead of saying to himself 'I want this thing, but I can't afford it, oh well I'll get over it' he's forcing you to be the person to say yes or no. So now, you have to be the bad guy. This is ridiculously unfair and not a loving thing to do.
This is no different than a woman demanding a $60k diamond necklace because her friend has one, and then telling her husband that she deserves it and making it known that she'll be unhappy until she gets it, AND being totally unwilling to compromise with a less expensive piece of jewelry...all while knowing the husband cannot afford it. I'm guessing if this were the scenario the face punches would be coming wayyyyy faster for the wife, but since men like "toys" your husband is getting the light touch treatment here.
Basically, he's being a baby. You guys need to sit down and hash out the money details of your budget together, and if he's still being ridiculous I would at least consider separate finances. Based on what you said (I understand the inclusion of Jack moreso now) I highly doubt this will be the last "toy" (ugh, hate that term) that he needs/deserves.
On a more compassionate note, do you think your husband is unhappy? I'm sure I'm biased but I tend to think people who need flashy things (diamonds, sports car) are trying to compensate for something that's missing. Maybe that's not true though.
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He wants a 2018 Camero.
I suck at relationship advice, so instead I'll try to estimate the true cost of this vehicle for your reference.
Assumption: 2018 Camaro ZL1 coupe with manual transmission and navigation as the only option.
MSRP: $63,790 after incentives
Sales tax: $3k, give or take (depends on state)
Initial registration and other fees: $800 (also depends on state)
VLT: $600/year after the first year (also depends on state)
Fuel cost: $213.33 per 1000 miles (55% city driving)
Insurance: $61/month (this is an actual quote on my policy adding it as a third vehicle, your own quote will vary)
Maintenance and repairs: $900/year (source, KBB)
Depreciation: $5k/year
Financing cost: $824/year (2.49% for 60 months)
Opportunity cost: $2k/year (investing the payments in the stock market instead of the car)
So your grand total cost of owning the car for five years, assuming 5k miles driven per year is.... $58,800
KBB has their own total cost of ownership calculation which comes out to $72,700 (https://www.kbb.com/chevrolet/camaro/2018/zl1/?vehicleid=429307&intent=buy-new) for five years (assumes 12k miles of driving per year). So I think my number should at least be in the ballpark and is probably a lower end estimate.
About 42%-53% of the ownership costs are depreciation, which is why buying used cars that aren't expensive enough for depreciation to hurt or are collectible enough that they have stopped depreciating is the best way to go. If your husband gets exactly this car it will cost approximately 8% of your post-tax income (~$1k/month).
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If you cannot talk some sense into him I would separate your finances and he pays for the car. I wouldn’t put my name on the loan either. We are not super frugal but this is such a huge waste of money.
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Get rid of Jack. Hustle and make some new friends to spend time together with.
Does your hubs actually make you feel guilty about the debt or is this you feeling guilty?
No one can make you feel anything without your permission. And someone need to work on boundaries.
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is most everyone here under the assumption that the car will depreciate like a new car off the lot? Because that isn't the case. This car will be worth at least $60K or more for the next 20 or 30 years or more. Buying it is much like putting money in a savings account with a 1% yield. Big deal.
That's almost certainly not true. I assume this is a Zl1 (based on the price). Five years ago they cost about $55K new. Now they go for about $25-30K used.
Sports cars go in and out of fashion. For example, a used Porsche 911 SC used to cost around $10,000. And it cost that much for years and years. Literally decades. The next model was seen as superior, so people would just get the next model and no one really wanted the 911 SC. Welp, something snapped recently and the price shot up to more like $30,000 for no real reason that I can determine. Suddenly, people wanted them. Coincidentally, the new price was around $30,000. So, I guess if your holding period was 35 years and you don't factor in inflation or maintence you broke even. But there are other Porsche models that you can buy for well under $10K. Are they going to bump up in price too? No idea.
If this model Camaro becomes and stays fashionable it will hold its value. But the next model type is viewed as more favorable the price will plummet like a rock. Maybe it will come back, maybe it won't.
To the OP: I suck at relationship advice too, but I'll give some anyway. Sometimes you just have to let people make their own mistakes. I think this is clearly a mistake, but sometimes you just have to do life wrong in order to learn how to do it right.
The other bit is you have to pick your battles. This might be a battle you can win, but winning comes at a cost too. Keep that in mind. Best of luck regardless how things turn out.
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Well you guys have been doing a great job paying down that student loan, and it sounds like you have a pretty solid foundation of shared financial goals.
It sounds like you guys need to do a reset on where you are with your financial goals. Go back over the various goals you've set over the years, and review how you've done meeting them. That should give some perspective on where you are, and might make it easier to discuss the financial damage that can be done by a poor choice.
Perhaps your husband just needs a new challenge to keep him busy. Show him this MMM: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/01/28/the-man-who-gets-his-cars-for-free/ Perhaps your husband is turning into a car guy, it does happen.
Make a deal that the new hobby can't involve debt, and if it starts out with an eye to eventually becoming an income generator, it can be pretty fun trading up.
Or perhaps deflect by suggesting that you guys start looking into buying some rental property. Sounds like Jack's influence is the real issue here.
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is most everyone here under the assumption that the car will depreciate like a new car off the lot? Because that isn't the case. This car will be worth at least $60K or more for the next 20 or 30 years or more. Buying it is much like putting money in a savings account with a 1% yield. Big deal.
That's almost certainly not true. I assume this is a Zl1 (based on the price). Five years ago they cost about $55K new. Now they go for about $25-30K used.
Sports cars go in and out of fashion. For example, a used Porsche 911 SC used to cost around $10,000. And it cost that much for years and years. Literally decades. The next model was seen as superior, so people would just get the next model and no one really wanted the 911 SC. Welp, something snapped recently and the price shot up to more like $30,000 for no real reason that I can determine. Suddenly, people wanted them. Coincidentally, the new price was around $30,000. So, I guess if your holding period was 35 years and you don't factor in inflation or maintence you broke even. But there are other Porsche models that you can buy for well under $10K. Are they going to bump up in price too? No idea.
If this model Camaro becomes and stays fashionable it will hold its value. But the next model type is viewed as more favorable the price will plummet like a rock. Maybe it will come back, maybe it won't.
To the OP: I suck at relationship advice too, but I'll give some anyway. Sometimes you just have to let people make their own mistakes. I think this is clearly a mistake, but sometimes you just have to do life wrong in order to learn how to do it right.
The other bit is you have to pick your battles. This might be a battle you can win, but winning comes at a cost too. Keep that in mind. Best of luck regardless how things turn out.
I just checked eBay and 4-5 year old ZL1’s go from around $33k with higher mileage (40k miles +) up to $45k for mint low mileage cars.
Let’s look at a 2013 mustang GT500. Brand new msrp they were around $63k. After the new car hype wore off they could be had for around $60k. Now, 5 years later, mint very low mileage ones can still bring in close to $50k. They may be 5 years old but there aren’t many other 662hp muscle cars available right now. I’d pick it over a hellcat (not a dodge fan)
So, that’s $10k of depreciation over 5 years - or - less than $200/mo.
Of course, this is assuming very low miles and mint.
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is most everyone here under the assumption that the car will depreciate like a new car off the lot? Because that isn't the case. This car will be worth at least $60K or more for the next 20 or 30 years or more. Buying it is much like putting money in a savings account with a 1% yield. Big deal.
That's almost certainly not true. I assume this is a Zl1 (based on the price). Five years ago they cost about $55K new. Now they go for about $25-30K used.
Sports cars go in and out of fashion. For example, a used Porsche 911 SC used to cost around $10,000. And it cost that much for years and years. Literally decades. The next model was seen as superior, so people would just get the next model and no one really wanted the 911 SC. Welp, something snapped recently and the price shot up to more like $30,000 for no real reason that I can determine. Suddenly, people wanted them. Coincidentally, the new price was around $30,000. So, I guess if your holding period was 35 years and you don't factor in inflation or maintence you broke even. But there are other Porsche models that you can buy for well under $10K. Are they going to bump up in price too? No idea.
If this model Camaro becomes and stays fashionable it will hold its value. But the next model type is viewed as more favorable the price will plummet like a rock. Maybe it will come back, maybe it won't.
To the OP: I suck at relationship advice too, but I'll give some anyway. Sometimes you just have to let people make their own mistakes. I think this is clearly a mistake, but sometimes you just have to do life wrong in order to learn how to do it right.
The other bit is you have to pick your battles. This might be a battle you can win, but winning comes at a cost too. Keep that in mind. Best of luck regardless how things turn out.
My assumption was the camaro is a 1960 model. If he wants a new 2018, tell him to pack sand.
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I don't know if they are in debt from them or not. But any time we try to talk about this situation, my husband brings up Jack, ...
It seems like your husband wants to climb BrokeJack Mountain.
Yeah, I'll never understand why people way a friend's opinion (esp a newer friend in this case) more than their spouse's.
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My response would be: "if Jack want's you to have that car then why don't you get him to buy it for you".
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wait, if you guys are ahead of schedule on paying down the debt, how can you say he isn't on board with the financial plan?
There is a lot of talk about compromise and hammering on this guy for not compromising... which doesn't seem entirely fair if they are currently *exceeding the main financial goal* of reducing the debt.
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My response would be: "if Jack want's you to have that car then why don't you get him to buy it for you".
Why stop there? They could get married.
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*shrug* Wanting to keep up with the Joneses seems to be a pretty well engraved human instinct. Some of us are good at overcoming up. Some of us aren't good at overcoming it, but understand the negative effects well enough that we can engineer our way out of it by choosing where we live and who we associate with so that our personal Joneses aren't particularly hard to keep up with.
I think RWD's approach is best. This decision will -- largely irrevocably -- commit approximately 10% of your total income for the next five years. If you calculated it as a percent of disposable income it'd be even higher. If you calculated it as your husband's "share" of the disposable income (depending on how you'd chose to split it out) it'd be higher still.
Over the next five years, I'm sure that your husband's friends (whether Jack or others) will also be willing buying other expensive items. Some will have higher disposable incomes than the two of you. Some will be sacrificing in other areas in order put more one into one particular hobby or interest. Some will be pushing their consumption habits higher through unsustainable consumer debt.
Sooner or later you and your husband will not be able to keep up anymore and he's going to feel the pain of falling behind his chosen set of Joneses. If the pain is inevitable, I'd argue he might as well experience it now, rather than spending a lot of money which will only delay the time when he experiences the same pain. But I'm not him, so all I can do is shout some advice from the sidelines, two steps removed. Good luck, outdoorsyfreedom.
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My assumption was the camaro is a 1960 model. If he wants a new 2018, tell him to pack sand.
Gotcha. My bad. I agree a vehicle of that vintage is unlikely to depreciate.
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wait, if you guys are ahead of schedule on paying down the debt, how can you say he isn't on board with the financial plan?
There is a lot of talk about compromise and hammering on this guy for not compromising... which doesn't seem entirely fair if they are currently *exceeding the main financial goal* of reducing the debt.
Reducing the debt is a good thing. Wanting to buy an expensive toy (and adding debt) because Jack and coworkers want him to, is not good. Would we be okay with it if she came here, but instead of hubby wanting a car she wanted a Hermes bag that cost $30K because 'Betty' and her coworkers wanted her to get one, even though 'they are exceeding the main financial goal'?
Folks have offered up some good options, including renting one for a couple days. The bigger issue I think is Jack, because if he does manage to talk hubby into the car against the OP's wishes, will the 'toy talk' end there or will it be something else? "Hey, you know what would be cool? If you had a boat! And not just any boat, but one we could go out and hand out in on the weekends. I don't think the car can tow a boat, so you might need a truck. Here's a great one, a 2019...It'll be perfect!". Slippery slope. I think the best option would be to ditch Jack.
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wait, if you guys are ahead of schedule on paying down the debt, how can you say he isn't on board with the financial plan?
There is a lot of talk about compromise and hammering on this guy for not compromising... which doesn't seem entirely fair if they are currently *exceeding the main financial goal* of reducing the debt.
Reducing the debt is a good thing. Wanting to buy an expensive toy (and adding debt) because Jack and coworkers want him to, is not good. Would we be okay with it if she came here, but instead of hubby wanting a car she wanted a Hermes bag that cost $30K because 'Betty' and her coworkers wanted her to get one, even though 'they are exceeding the main financial goal'?
Folks have offered up some good options, including renting one for a couple days. The bigger issue I think is Jack, because if he does manage to talk hubby into the car against the OP's wishes, will the 'toy talk' end there or will it be something else? "Hey, you know what would be cool? If you had a boat! And not just any boat, but one we could go out and hand out in on the weekends. I don't think the car can tow a boat, so you might need a truck. Here's a great one, a 2019...It'll be perfect!". Slippery slope. I think the best option would be to ditch Jack.
For me, the bolded above is the most critical issue. Based on what the OP has shared, if the OP never met Jack this discussion never happens. This isn't some pining boyhood dream, this is just peer pressure.
As a personal example, based on a combination of a bad medical event and an injury, I have had what I lovingly call "old man back" since I was a tween. When I was a broke teenager working in the mall, I discovered something amazing: If I went to the Sleep Number store on my breaks to use the mattress there for even just a few minutes, I felt soooo much better. Flash forward 1.5 decades and I am getting married and moving into a house with my wife. She has heard me talk fondly about the SN bed for a number of years and we got one for our new house. It was expensive as all get out, but it is everything I had dreamed about for all of those years. It is important to note though that we talked about this for years and budgeted it into buying the new house, plus we tried out a number of options for the bed multiple times to make sure DW would be comfortable in the bed too.
Had I just came home tady and told DW that Dave down the street just got a the top of the line Sleep Number bed and I wanted to go buy one today so we could talk about our numbers, having never shown any preference or interest in our mattress before now, she should rightfully think I'm nuts, regardless of whether or not 'we can afford it' or that I 'work hard and therefore deserve it'.
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This thread is making me nauseous with anxiety. Posting to follow while I go get popcorn and praise God that this isn't my circus.
preach.....amen
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wait, if you guys are ahead of schedule on paying down the debt, how can you say he isn't on board with the financial plan?
There is a lot of talk about compromise and hammering on this guy for not compromising... which doesn't seem entirely fair if they are currently *exceeding the main financial goal* of reducing the debt.
Reducing the debt is a good thing. Wanting to buy an expensive toy (and adding debt) because Jack and coworkers want him to, is not good. Would we be okay with it if she came here, but instead of hubby wanting a car she wanted a Hermes bag that cost $30K because 'Betty' and her coworkers wanted her to get one, even though 'they are exceeding the main financial goal'?
OP is no mustache saint. 8 years of schoolin' debt is both a lot and a lot more than is actually needed to get a decent paying professional job. That amount of school should be viewed as a luxury.
now, a few years later OP wants a different standard applied to the car luxury. Not the car many of us would pick, but most of us here need to be aware that we are, well, weird and not normal in our financial values. Hubby wasn't a mustachio when they hitched up, and he hasn't changed. As long as he didn't lie to OP and say he was a mustache, him not changing isn't a sin.
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My wife and I each get $100 a month to spend on whatever, or 1200 a year.
It keeps us from subjecting each other to our fanciful personal purchases.
Maybe you and your husband can work out an annual number that you each get to blow on whatever you like. He might just have to consider this a 5-10 year personal purchase.
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Maybe sitting and having a conversation with your husband with a curiosity mindset could help the situation. Here's an exercise called the "5 Why's" that may help DH realize that this purchase doesn't align with your family's stated goals. The trick is, YOU, op, enter this conversation from a place of curiosity and acceptance, NOT judgement. You listen to listen and absorb, not listen to formulate a reply. The conversation won't expire, you can leave the conversation, digest what he said, and come back with your own response/reaction/feelings another evening. In order for this to work, you have to keep DH from getting defensive and activated, so you need to be calm, patient, and interested-in-his-viewpoint to actually get the information you need.
Anyway, the "5 Why's" goes like this. You sit him down, and simply ask him: "Why do you want this car?" and listen/accept his answer. He might answer something like...
"Because it's cool."
"Because Jack has one and I like it."
"Because I deserve it."
"Because my old car isn't fun to drive."
etc.
Now, you follow the rabbit down the hole. Don't just leave his first answer as-is. You follow up with a second "Why". WHY does he think it's cool? WHY does he like it? WHY does he deserve it? WHY isn't his old car fun to drive anymore? And he will answer again. And again you follow the rabbit down the hole, each time dredging up more and more reasons, and more deep, personal reasons.
Eventually, the more levels of "whys" you go down, you might reach answers like:
"because I feel bad about myself and I think this toy may help me feel better"
"because I think Jack thinks I'm lame"
"because I don't want people to think I'm poor"
etc.
And THOSE^ you can have an actual, rational conversation about, instead of skimming the surface and addressing the symptoms and leaving the actual problem unaddressed. DH may not even know exactly what his problem is that he is trying to "solve" with getting this car, but this exercise could help him articulate it with you. You'll actually have something solid to grapple with, instead of getting deflected off any time you try to make headway at that surface-level (the level that is masking the actual "problem" DH perceives).
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I write this as definitely a car guy. Right before I met my wife, I had a sports car, tinkered with it constantly, and went to the track regularly (open course not drag racing). It was really fun, but the track is unbelievably abusive to cars, so I was always fixing something or tinkering. My car was 10 years old at the time, but it was so very very fun, enough power to get into trouble, but not too much.
The people with really expensive new-ish cars didn't really seem like car people. They liked cars, but never tinkered with them, and they were always onto the next new one. Some of them were really loaded and I would see them change out their car to another completely different model the next time I saw them.
I put an end to that because I was re-entering school for my master's and it wasn't aligning with my goals. My wife coming along 10 years ago prevented that from ever coming back as she is not at all a car person. I still think about it at least once a week. It was so much fun! Plus the camaraderie of car clubs, and car culture was so cool to be a part of. A purse or diamonds are purely status symbols, a car is not like that if you're using it like I did.
That being said, your husband's love of cars does not seem real deep. I knew people with 500hp cars, back then only rich people had them. They would blast it down the straights and go through corners in slow motion. Those cars are terrifying to drive truly fast around the track and not at all fun unless you are a very very good driver (which your husband is not, I can guarantee).
Also, I don't know of any car person who 'needs' a $60k car. Usually you can find a car you really like for a lot less than that. My old '98 BMW M3 cost me (at the time, 14 years ago) $12.5k and it was fast as hell around a track especially after all the work I did on it (which probably added another $5-10k).
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I write this as definitely a car guy. Right before I met my wife, I had a sports car, tinkered with it constantly, and went to the track regularly (open course not drag racing). It was really fun, but the track is unbelievably abusive to cars, so I was always fixing something or tinkering. My car was 10 years old at the time, but it was so very very fun, enough power to get into trouble, but not too much.
I put an end to that because I was re-entering school for my master's and it wasn't aligning with my goals. My wife coming along 10 years ago prevented that from ever coming back as she is not at all a car person. I still think about it at least once a week. It was so much fun! Plus the camaraderie of car clubs, and car culture was so cool to be a part of.
Any reason you can't get a fun car now or maybe again in the future? You can get some pretty enjoyable cars for under $10k that have stopped depreciating. You may be interested in my journal (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/pursuing-rear-wheel-drive/), if only to live vicariously through others.
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wait, if you guys are ahead of schedule on paying down the debt, how can you say he isn't on board with the financial plan?
There is a lot of talk about compromise and hammering on this guy for not compromising... which doesn't seem entirely fair if they are currently *exceeding the main financial goal* of reducing the debt.
Reducing the debt is a good thing. Wanting to buy an expensive toy (and adding debt) because Jack and coworkers want him to, is not good. Would we be okay with it if she came here, but instead of hubby wanting a car she wanted a Hermes bag that cost $30K because 'Betty' and her coworkers wanted her to get one, even though 'they are exceeding the main financial goal'?
OP is no mustache saint. 8 years of schoolin' debt is both a lot and a lot more than is actually needed to get a decent paying professional job. That amount of school should be viewed as a luxury.
now, a few years later OP wants a different standard applied to the car luxury. Not the car many of us would pick, but most of us here need to be aware that we are, well, weird and not normal in our financial values. Hubby wasn't a mustachio when they hitched up, and he hasn't changed. As long as he didn't lie to OP and say he was a mustache, him not changing isn't a sin.
OP's education and career is not a depreciating asset.
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OK, I am both a car guy* and married to a Spendypants, so I have a little experience with this.
First, please don't write this off as keeping up with the Joneses or being led down the wrong path by a bad influence. It might be. But it also might be that he has started to go do fun things with Jack that he had never done before and realized that he really enjoys them and so wants to be able to play himself. Sort of like how I never understood why people went scuba diving when you could snorkel for free and see all the same stuff. Then I married DH, who was a Dive Master, and tried it -- and was completely, instantly hooked. Turns out it's nothing like snorkeling. I had the same reaction when DH took me to see the Mustang convertible he was eyeing -- I had no idea I liked muscle cars at all until I heard the thrum of that V8.
But the bigger picture is that even if it is just a dick-measuring contest, so what? It matters to your husband. And shaming him or lecturing him about how immature that is will get you precisely nowhere -- he is a grown-ass man, he is entitled to make dumb-ass decisions with his own money if he wants to, and becoming the Place Where Fun Goes to Die is not good for the long-term health of your marriage. You need to see his desire as meaningful to him, even if you cannot possibly think of anything stupider that he could possibly blow his money on.
Of course, that doesn't mean you need to say yes. Because, really, it is massively stupid, and it is completely selfish and disrespectful of him to change your entire financial plan for a depreciating asset that is going to cost you an arm and a leg in insurance, gas, and maintenance to boot. So your job is to figure out what it is about the car that compels him, and work with him to find a solution that will meet that legitimate need but in a way that has an acceptable impact on your budget.
So talk -- talk as if the car is a legitimate want. What is it that draws him? What feeling does it give him? Because those feelings are important and legitimate, even if the way he has chosen to get there is not.
And also make sure to talk about your other life goals and plans. How long do you both want to work? Look at the Shockingly Simple Math post and see what kind of savings rate that requires, and compare that to where you are now (assuming you transition loan payments into investments once the loan is gone).
But also look beyond the math. I think there is a tendency to focus on FIRE as a simple math problem, and so anyone who can't see the obvious impact of their choices is just stupid. But the reality is that most of us are driven by emotions. FIRE itself is an amorphous concept; what you need is a vision of what you would actually do if you didn't have to go to work every day. Do you want kids? When? If so, does one or both of you want the ability to stay home with them or work very part-time? Do you want to be able to put them through college? Do you want to take off work and travel the world? Do you have a hobby or craft that you'd love to spend all day doing, maybe turn it into a side-business? "Freedom" sounds good but doesn't really have any emotional impact to someone who is reasonably happy with his job and his life. But "OMG I would love to be able to spend all afternoon in the woodshop every day" is a powerful driver to a guy who loves woodworking.**
You need to find his "thing" -- and yours. Because the only way he is going to be able to fight off his urge for the BrightShiny right in front of him is if there is something else that he wants more in the future, and he can see exactly how much choosing this debt now is going to postpone that dream.
FWIW, I love the idea of the classic cars. Seems like Jack is big on Big and New and Powerful and Manly. Unfortunately, the only way to compete on those terms is to spend a metric shit-ton of money on something that is even Bigger/Newer/More Powerful and comes with testosterone dripping from the tailpipe. So find a way to change the playing field. But don't just tell him -- go with him and get into it yourself! Find a local classic car show and go together and look at everything that is out there. Lead him to other options that allow him to scratch the car itch and one-up Jack not by throwing more money at him, but by buying a one-of-a-kind classic model that is even cooler than Jack's.
And at the same time, set up a separate savings fund that you divert an agreed-on amount of money to each month to fund his StupidCar purchase when he finds just the right thing. It is ok to have some basic ground rules ("no debt for a depreciating asset" seems pretty reasonable to me, except maybe for your first set of needed wheels, but you may have different priorities). But you have to show him that you want to find a way for him to have the thing he wants -- that it is important to you because it is important to him. There just needs to be a compromise -- in price, in time, in type of vehicle, etc.
Really, the tl;dr is that if you act as though you think his choice is stupid, you are forcing him to dig in more to justify the rightness of his position. OTOH, if you can acknowledge that his feelings are legitimate, and show him that you want to find a way to make him happy (even if you don't quite get it yourself), he won't get his back up so much and may be more open to talking and considering a more reasonable compromise -- and then you may have to lead him to what those alternatives are so he can see for himself how cool they might be.
*For context, I currently drive a StupidCar that cost more than your husband's dream vehicle.
**Of course, the risk is that he decides cars are his "thing." ;-) Thanks to my dad's gift of the Porsche Sport Driving School many years ago, my "thing" has become driving a car very fast around a track. So for me, it is worth it to work longer to be able to afford to do that even more when I have all that free time in retirement.
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OP's education and career is not a depreciating asset.
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Fair enough. whats the degree? Med school? or PhD in Philosophy? 'cause it matters a lot if you want to say the degree is cash valuable.
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I write this as definitely a car guy. Right before I met my wife, I had a sports car, tinkered with it constantly, and went to the track regularly (open course not drag racing). It was really fun, but the track is unbelievably abusive to cars, so I was always fixing something or tinkering. My car was 10 years old at the time, but it was so very very fun, enough power to get into trouble, but not too much.
I put an end to that because I was re-entering school for my master's and it wasn't aligning with my goals. My wife coming along 10 years ago prevented that from ever coming back as she is not at all a car person. I still think about it at least once a week. It was so much fun! Plus the camaraderie of car clubs, and car culture was so cool to be a part of.
Any reason you can't get a fun car now or maybe again in the future? You can get some pretty enjoyable cars for under $10k that have stopped depreciating. You may be interested in my journal (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/pursuing-rear-wheel-drive/), if only to live vicariously through others.
My wife hates cars and it would be a major sticking point. It's now 10 years later, and although I think about it a lot, I can't afford to spend that much time on a side hobby. Right now, we're very involved in real estate and I'm trying to FIRE in the next year or two, but real estate is literally consuming pretty much all my free time at this point. After I FIRE and the real estate is more on autopilot, I might reconsider.
But I also found a lot of other hobbies in the last 10 years that I'd like to devote more time to... reading, woodworking, investments, traveling, and generally learning. Cars are so fun, but I don't think I'll ever let it take over my life like it did for those few years. Plus, the environmental impact. I may get a Tesla Model 3 Performance though and take it for a spin on the track in 5 years when they're cheaper to buy used :)
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I went through the graduating and money-crazy people and financed a new car. Fortunately, it was a 2009 toyota camry, which I still own.
Today, 120,000 miles in and in decent shape, it's a good MMM car. I visualize myself re-buying it every day. Couldn't imagine selling it for the price that mint plugs in for it, which has changed very little over the past tw years.
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I'm thinking similar to trollwithamustache. That you came on board with significant student debt while he didn't. While school debt is different than a car, he may feel, hey things feel more tight and I didn't get to enjoy this big paycheck I'm making! and I also understand that fear, esp with guys like Jack around, there may be another must have around the corner (stuff for the car, a boat, who knows?). It's a justifiable fear.
In my (prior) marriage I was the one who made more, but also had an unjustifiable interest (gems and jewelry). We had an informal rule that we would discuss any purchases over $100. We also agreed on a 1K yearly spending allowance for me. I could spend it monthly, yearly, or save up multiple years to get something bigger. that's how I got my anniversary ring. It is a really good system. Our system helped in that I don't typically spend money on things like manicures, makeup, hair or "fun" clothes, bags.
Short of splitting up finances, having an allowance for these kind of discretionary expenses makes sense if you can stick to it. Heck, I would be generous enough to say something to the effect of, I appreciate you getting on board with our shared goals. I know that I came into this marriage with debt. As a one-time thing, I am OKing 20K (or X amount) for your hobby. But that's all I can OK. If you want something more than that you will need to save up for it.
So you are not saying no, in fact you are giving him permission. Permission with boundaries.
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PartG, I think that is a awesome compromise.
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Without knowing your existing budget, I have no sense of how the $20,000 fits in. Are you willing to move to a smaller house to make additional money available for this car purchase?
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Hmm F-you money car. Compromise, he can get a toy but tell him to get a C5 corvette. It'll be faster than his friends camaro, and you can get them for ~$10k.
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Hmm F-you money car. Compromise, he can get a toy but tell him to get a C5 corvette. It'll be faster than his friends camaro, and you can get them for ~$10k.
A new Camaro ZL1 is significantly faster than any [unmodified] C5 Corvette, at least in a straight line. I don't disagree with the advice though. Nobody needs a 650 hp vehicle on the street, especially not someone who just discovered an interest in cars.
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Wait a minute, is this my wife? Hmmm...can't be she's the one always trying to get me to buy a new car cause I want a new car. I just don't want the payments.
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Have him ask Jack to co sign for the loan and see if Jack still thinks it is a great idea.
Basically that is what he is asking you to do since you will be equally responsible right?
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
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Tell him Jack hits on you constantly. Just kidding...
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So, extremely frugal car guy here. Or as I like to say I'm a car guy without a cool car. I drive a 15 yo Cavalier with 273k miles. Rusty but trusty. I absolutely hate every minute driving this car and I will eventually buy a newer car that suits me better. Last year when I thought I was going to buy a new car (wife threatened to sell the car I was driving because she wanted me in a safer car that I also liked) I instead started dumping extra money onto my student loans and paid them off. Then once they were paid off I started increasing my 401k to the max (IRA was already maxed). Sometime earlier this year I realized that I was sacrificing current wants too much by saving too much. What I realized is that life is a compromise. I could save, save, save and eat rice and beans everyday or the wife and I could compromise by choosing an early retirement date, make sure that we put enough money away to achieve that and then we could take family vacations, throw parties at our home, etc... We are to the point that we have a mortgage and a really small amount of student loan debt from her and that's it. We are even ahead of our early retirement goal. All that being said I still have that Cavalier because I haven't pulled the trigger yet because extreme frugality makes me feel guilty about buying stuff for myself.
Or another way to look at it is to put a dollar amount on the joy it brings. I was in sales for years and people would ask me if things were worth it. I would respond they are worth it if it brings that much joy to the person. For me a 60k car would bring me no more joy than a 16k car. You can get a really nice low mileage Camaro or Corvette for 16k. I like fast cars but in reality I wouldn't take my car to the drag strip so how fast can I go on old country roads?
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Dr. Jeckyl, it sounds like you are mustach-ing correctly. Old, rusty junker that you hate driving. Wife begging you to get into something safer?
And--instead--you're pumping that 401(k) like it's one of the tires on that old car.
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OP's education and career is not a depreciating asset.
Fair enough. whats the degree? Med school? or PhD in Philosophy? 'cause it matters a lot if you want to say the degree is cash valuable.
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She did say that she out-earned hubby, so it seems plausible the school was worth it.
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Fair enough. whats the degree? Med school? or PhD in Philosophy?
Sorry to be pedantic...but, by definition, what else could a PhD be? :)
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Fair enough. whats the degree? Med school? or PhD in Philosophy?
Sorry to be pedantic...but, by definition, what else could a PhD be? :)
Typically one has a specialization beyond just Philosophy.
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Hmmm... Philosophy... philo love sophos wisdom. A PhD just says that someone has shown their love of wisdom at an advanced level. Even if (as in my case) that “wisdom” is in science, the degree is still a Doctorate in Philosophy - we shouldn’t let the Arts graduates steal the term Philosophy for themselves!
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Fair enough. whats the degree? Med school? or PhD in Philosophy?
Sorry to be pedantic...but, by definition, what else could a PhD be? :)
Lol, I have several friends with PhDs in philosophy whose heads would explode at the implication that all people with PhDs are somehow all philosophers.
Hahaha! I might say this to them just to watch the steam come out of their ears. Too funny.
Piled Higher... and Deeper.
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Fair enough. whats the degree? Med school? or PhD in Philosophy?
Sorry to be pedantic...but, by definition, what else could a PhD be? :)
Lol, I have several friends with PhDs in philosophy whose heads would explode at the implication that all people with PhDs are somehow all philosophers.
Hahaha! I might say this to them just to watch the steam come out of their ears. Too funny.
Piled Higher... and Deeper.
Which incidentally is the name of a web comic (http://phdcomics.com/).
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So first.....I'm not trying to get anyone to buy any car. In truth, I'm currently into offroad, so would probably be discussion the points of buying a new Rubicon vs finding a used one driven by some 16 year old girl. How are your finances otherwise? I didn't see it (scanned), but are all the student loans paid off? Mortgage going along with extra payments? Would this Camaro be paid for with cash? If all of these questions can be answered yes, then make a deal with your husband. He is allowed to buy this Camaro, but you want to buy an entry level Bentley. A slightly used CPO one would be fine. Then send an ad with a $200k CPO used Continental GT and say that this is the one you're getting. Let it sink in with him that getting this Camaro is actually setting him back $250k. It's a bluff, but it might work.
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I'm starting to worry that CarJack is so wealthy that I can no longer put his advice to work.
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Dr. Jeckyl, it sounds like you are mustach-ing correctly. Old, rusty junker that you hate driving. Wife begging you to get into something safer?
And--instead--you're pumping that 401(k) like it's one of the tires on that old car.
I like the way you put that. It is about the same frequency, good for the 401k bad for the tires, lol.