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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: sweettea on December 14, 2015, 08:09:24 AM

Title: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: sweettea on December 14, 2015, 08:09:24 AM
Within the past week, I've noticed mold appearing in my house. Book spines, wicker baskets, windows, windowsills, and doors, ... anything that has a porous surface and some that don't. We have a indoors drying rack and keep the house on 58, so we do get a lot of condensation on windows, and I'm assuming this is just that our air is too moist.

What is the mustachian way to cure this? Do we quest for a dehumidifier on Craigslist? Use the dryer instead of the clothesrack? Wave a UV lamp over the affected areas? Something else?

Thanks!

(Edit: I'm in Boston, it's only occasionally warm enough to open windows these days.)
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: former player on December 14, 2015, 08:23:32 AM
Open your windows.

Which is to say, I don't know where you are and what your weather conditions are, but your problem is too much humidity in the house, and provided it is not humid weather outside, then opening the windows and letting the house air out will stop the problem getting worse.  To manage the problem through the winter, you need a combination of airing out (to get rid of the humidity created by breathing people and pets, baths and showers, washing up, cooking, damp washing, etc.) and heating.  Dehumidifiers and air exchangers are the technical ways to manage humidity, but humanity managed to keep mold at bay for centuries through simple good housekeeping - dry clothes outside when at all possible, and open your windows and air the house out daily.  Bathrooms need extractor fans in use or an open window after every shower/bath, and don't let the condensation from the bathroom into the rest of the house.

Everything that is covered in mold needs to be cleaned.  If you get your house dry and warm enough, the mold on many items will dry and die and can be dusted/brushed off.  Some things (eg black mold on painted walls) are better washed with bleach or mold killer, but of course that adds to the humidity unless you go through the airing/warming process afterwards.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on December 14, 2015, 08:24:38 AM
You may just need to use the dryer and/or keep your thermostat higher.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: garion on December 14, 2015, 09:29:05 AM
A dehumidifier is probably the best solution. Opening your windows won't help if it's also humid outside. We have been getting a lot of mold lately due to it being humid but not hot or cold enough to have the ac or heat on. We got a dehumidifier for about 200 on amazon, but you could probably find one cheaper secondhand.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: The_path_less_taken on December 14, 2015, 09:30:48 AM
I'm assuming no garage? Because if you moved the clothes drying to the garage....that would probably take a big load off. You could just open the door once a day to release the moisture

When I lived in New York a lot of people had storm doors/windows. Or little storm porches where there was an outside door, 6 feet space,  and then an inside door. Can you put the drying rack there? If not: can you get one of those multiple hook clothes 'over the door' hanger things, and dry stuff there?

If not: I think you should put the drying rack in the bathroom, close the door, and put the fart fan on for an hour. Can't use that much electric and at least you can see if that helps enough.

And run the oven hood fan when you're doing major soup boiling I guess.

I had to run a dehumidifier 24/7 on the Oregon coast...otherwise everything had black fur....disgusting. And the people who clean mold for a living use an exceptionally high percentage of alcohol on it, not bleach.

I was wiping the windowsills with straight Clorox and a week later they had black fur on them....alcohol was good for much longer.

Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Sibley on December 14, 2015, 09:37:55 AM
Given that you don't want to open your windows in winter (completely agree - Chicago here!), either get a dehumidifier or turn the heat up some. Really not sure which is more effective in your situation.

Also, if you have allergies/asthma, children or old people in the house, etc, you need to fix this ASAP. Mold can cause serious health problems for those susceptible, and be on the lookout for health issues in general.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: StacheInAFlash on December 14, 2015, 10:49:46 AM
Seriously, turn up the heat and go get a dehumidifier ASAP! You are being a penny wise and pound foolish right now. The money you're saving by keeping your house at 58, not using the clothes dryer, and not investing in a dehumidifier is going to go right out the window when your house is condemned for mold! You will pay thousands and thousands of dollars to get mold taken care of, and who knows what your homeowners policy will say covering that if they determine it is caused by homeowner "neglect". Seriously! Alarm bells should be going off in your head right now! I'm not saying you need to go total unmustachian here and crank the heat to a permanent 78 and use the dryer for everything; but, getting the house back up to the mid-60s and dropping $150 for a dehumidifier (or getting on used on CL if there is one available for pick up TODAY), and using the clothes dryer a bit more for the next few months are smart, commonsense things that will end saving you money in the end.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: TrMama on December 14, 2015, 11:34:04 AM
Agree that you are being penny wise and pound foolish. You need to do all of the following:

1. Turn up the heat for a few hours and then open the windows for at least 10 minutes. This will help flush all the humid air out of the house.

2. Get a dehumidifier. Run it for several hours every single day.

3. Stop drying clothes inside. Only do this outside.

4. Get a low flow showerhead. The lower hot water ouput causes less steam. Run the bathroom fan for an hour after each shower.

I live in the PNW where mold and cool humidity are a serious problem. We do all of the above and don't have a mold problem.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Le Poisson on December 14, 2015, 11:41:51 AM
House or apartment? Central heat or baseboards? Attic fan? Number of residents in the house? Loads of questions beyond just what town you are in.

I see mold as an air turnover issue. Many tightly built houses now have mold issues because the air movement isn't there to transport warm, moist indoor air out. Most houses around here now require an air exchanger as part of the building code. If it is working properly, that should help with the issue, but if you are in an older apartment, maybe not.

Here is CHMC's factpage on your problem - it has a number of low cost solutions like bathroom fans, etc.

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/odpub/pdf/61033.pdf?fr=1439564219363
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: former player on December 14, 2015, 12:36:37 PM
Even in Boston in winter, windows can and should be opened for ventilation, even if just for a few minutes each morning.  How do you think people kept mold out of all those old houses before air con and air exchangers and dehumidifiers?  Opening the windows is the mustachian answer to the problem.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: jda1984 on December 14, 2015, 01:06:16 PM
If you have a bath fan and/or range hood that exhausts outside, run those 24x7 for a while.  It will pull cooler, drier air into your place and exhaust the higher humidity air out.  We have a pretty tightly build house (1995 construction) that doesn't have a heat exchanger so we run one bath fan all the time and the problems with high humidity have largely been resolved.

Older buildings that aren't as tight tend not to have this problem (at least in our area) as there are more spaces for air to exchange "naturally" via drafts/cracks, etc.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on December 14, 2015, 01:14:28 PM
Seriously, turn up the heat and go get a dehumidifier ASAP! You are being a penny wise and pound foolish right now. The money you're saving by keeping your house at 58, not using the clothes dryer, and not investing in a dehumidifier is going to go right out the window when your house is condemned for mold! You will pay thousands and thousands of dollars to get mold taken care of, and who knows what your homeowners policy will say covering that if they determine it is caused by homeowner "neglect". Seriously! Alarm bells should be going off in your head right now! I'm not saying you need to go total unmustachian here and crank the heat to a permanent 78 and use the dryer for everything; but, getting the house back up to the mid-60s and dropping $150 for a dehumidifier (or getting on used on CL if there is one available for pick up TODAY), and using the clothes dryer a bit more for the next few months are smart, commonsense things that will end saving you money in the end.

This poster is being really, really nice about this.

OP: when mold is showing up in book spines and wicker baskets, that's a big, giant, flashing red light and ear-numbing alarm trying to tell you that you're being cheap, not frugal.

This reminds me of the guy who was asking whether to put off getting his wisdom teeth out because it was an expensive procedure. It took damn near 60 posts of people telling him, "Dude, not getting your wisdom teeth out might lead to some serious infections which are going to cost 5x more than just getting them out."

Different context here obviously, but you are being similarly and absurdly cheap. You are trying to save a few bucks by not using the dryer and keeping your thermostat at a borderline comically low level.  Mold is now is showing up EVERYWHERE you can see (imagine inside the walls? The lumber? Everything!). The mold is basically trying to tell you "THIS IS A REALLY BAD IDEA" and you're still in the wrong mindset.

On top of all this, mold is a serious health issue. I am an attorney and represent a family who eventually found out their apartment is full of mold. Their five year old now has debilitating respiratory issues and has had to quit his martial arts class until they figure out what's going on.

Is all that damage to your house and health worth it to you?

So stop being cheap. Using the dryer is about 36 cents per load.  Temperature in your home is roughly $10 per degree. Right now you are inviting what you already recognize as a multi-thousand dollar problem for the sake of saving what, $45 a month during 4-5 months of the year? It's absolutely absurd.

Other people are recommending turning on your fan and range hood. Well that's electricity that I almost guarantee exceeds the use of the dryer.

So the TL;DR is this: turn up the heat in your house. Buy a dehumidifier (a $200 investment that will save you tens of thousands of damage from mold). Use your dryer unless you can dry your clothes outside. Open your windows every once in a while (you should do this anyway).
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: kite on December 14, 2015, 03:46:35 PM
Within the past week, I've noticed mold appearing in my house. Book spines, wicker baskets, windows, windowsills, and doors, ... anything that has a porous surface and some that don't. We have a indoors drying rack and keep the house on 58, so we do get a lot of condensation on windows, and I'm assuming this is just that our air is too moist.

What is the mustachian way to cure this? Do we quest for a dehumidifier on Craigslist? Use the dryer instead of the clothesrack? Wave a UV lamp over the affected areas? Something else?

Thanks!

(Edit: I'm in Boston, it's only occasionally warm enough to open windows these days.)

Move.

In the two rentals where we had mold, it was systemic.  The dampness was in the house and washing with bleach , airing out, running dehumidifiers, etc wouldn't resolve.  I'm allergic to mold, which I didn't know at the time.  After moving, I didn't have sinus issues for 20 years.  I'd try tuning the heat to 62 after cleaning that which can be cleaned, toss what cannot.  But if you don't own that house, look for another. 
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on December 14, 2015, 04:03:37 PM
Within the past week, I've noticed mold appearing in my house. Book spines, wicker baskets, windows, windowsills, and doors, ... anything that has a porous surface and some that don't. We have a indoors drying rack and keep the house on 58, so we do get a lot of condensation on windows, and I'm assuming this is just that our air is too moist.

What is the mustachian way to cure this? Do we quest for a dehumidifier on Craigslist? Use the dryer instead of the clothesrack? Wave a UV lamp over the affected areas? Something else?

Thanks!

(Edit: I'm in Boston, it's only occasionally warm enough to open windows these days.)

Move.

In the two rentals where we had mold, it was systemic.  The dampness was in the house and washing with bleach , airing out, running dehumidifiers, etc wouldn't resolve.  I'm allergic to mold, which I didn't know at the time.  After moving, I didn't have sinus issues for 20 years.  I'd try tuning the heat to 62 after cleaning that which can be cleaned, toss what cannot.  But if you don't own that house, look for another.
Right, but if he or she owns this house, then they would have to disclose the mold issue before selling it. And that would substantially decrease the value of the home and turn away a huge percentage of potential buyers.

Thus, I think it's in OP's best bet to just do the basics right (as I've noted above) before determining whether this is a systemic issue.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Rural on December 14, 2015, 05:28:50 PM
Turn up the heat right now, to at least 65. Go out in the morning as soon as the stores open and buy a portable dehumidifier and at least one thermometer with humidity meter (you can get these under $20) at a big box store). Get the place under 70% humidity (50 is better), then mix up a solution of one part bleach to ten parts water in a plant mister and mist everything that had mold (yes, even the books, but you can wipe them off afterward).


Get on top of this. I've been there. I nearly died of pneumonia, plus lost many books, everything made of leather, and all clothing that actually required dry cleaning. (As a silver lining I discovered several "dry clean only" items that handled the washing machine just fine).


Quit hanging to dry inside and check that your dryer is properly vented outside.


What kind of heat do you have? It's vented, isn't it? Are you in a house? Could there be drainage issues? If heat +dehumidifier doesn't bring things down fast, check for causes, because you can't let this go.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: MayDay on December 14, 2015, 05:55:15 PM
Are you having a super warm fall/winter?

Here in Ohio we are. High of 60 today means the heat won't kick on. The dampness goes away as soon as the temp drops and the heat actually runs. In the meantime, run the heat higher, open windows, get a dehumidifier, etc.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: sweettea on December 14, 2015, 06:51:46 PM
House; owned; very warm fall; radiant heat.

I have turned up the thermostat as high as I am comfortable (blasted hedonic adaptation to cold), will use the dryer and bathroom fan, will switch out the air when its not foggy outside like now, and am buying a dehumidifier and alcohol and unbuying moldy things.

Thanks for the abundant facepunches. Probably needed, despite wallet screams.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: jawisco on December 14, 2015, 07:43:03 PM
You own this place - I can only agree with the idea that you have to act QUICKLY.

You should turn the heat up to 85 degrees and open some windows and get that place aired out, NOW. 

That will be $25 dollars very well spent for 24 hours.  It probably won't even cost that much since you have warmer than normal temps.

By the end of 24 hours, you will have dehumidifier, and you can close the windows, turn the thermostat to 72 and turn on the dehumifier until you have no more mold growing in your house!  While this is happening, you can figure out why you have a moisture issue and do something about it.  Seriously, don't fuck with mold.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: MMMaybe on December 14, 2015, 07:49:57 PM
We live in the tropics where mould is always an issue.

I would say, definitely get a dehumidifier and run it daily with your cupboard doors open until the humidity level drops. Do the same when your heater is on. We also typically keep those dehumidifier pellets/silica inside shoes and cupboards.

One thing that seems to make a difference, is airflow. I open the windows daily. In our current apartment, they have the old fashioned louvered doors on cupboards and I must say, with all things being equal, I have had far fewer problems with mould. So I would lean towards airing the place out.

Seeing as you already have a problem though, go on the offensive to lower the humidity and then be more prudent in future :)
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: mustachepungoeshere on December 14, 2015, 07:53:19 PM
Clove oil will inhibit mould growth on hard surfaces. Add 1/4 tsp per litre of water.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: johnny847 on December 14, 2015, 09:18:42 PM
With respect to dehumidifers there are two basic types. One that uses a compressor. These are pretty loud.

The other type uses dessicants. It blows air over the dessicants which absorb the moisture. Then the dehumidifier heats the dessicants to extra the water into the bin, thereby allowing it to absorb more moisture.
These are pretty quiet (mostly just the sound of a fan). However, these are generally more expensive that compressor dehumidifiers.

I'm a PhD student and I do some work in my basement apartment. I also don't work well in noise. I'm glad I got my dessicant dehumidifer, as it is much quiter than the compressor based on my parents have.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Rollin on December 15, 2015, 08:52:00 AM
Airflow and light first (e.g., look at leather shoes in closet - no light and no air circulation).  We run the overhead fans all day during this time of year (AC isn't on much to remove moisture and the air is humid).  Works very well.  Sometimes we run the dehumidifier near the bathroom (many showers - no vents), but that raises the power bill a lot, so we do that sparingly.

Dry stuff outside, as you are adding moisture to the room.  After showering, take your towels out too (even wipe the tube out before you take the towel outside).

Too much panic in this thread.  It is usually a simple solution (e.g., mold does not like moving air, therefore a fan in the room).
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: DirtDiva on December 22, 2015, 08:28:42 AM
crank the heat to a permanent 78

Gramma?  Is that you?
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: justajane on December 22, 2015, 08:36:37 AM
Wouldn't it defeat the purpose of the dehumidifier if you open your windows and air out the house - that is, unless you live in a low humidity climate? I always read to trap the dehumidified air in the house.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: big_owl on December 22, 2015, 09:16:44 AM
We had some black mold in our house due to an unseen tiny plumbing leak some years back...now I suffer from painful and life-changing muscular-neurological problems that come on during the times of year when mold is most prevalent.  There are times if I am off my meds that it is a challenge to even lift my eyeballs up to look straight ahead - serious.

So my advice based on my experience is:

1. Throw any mustachian bullshit open the windows advice "out the window" (if your weather is anything like ours in DC this winter so far then it's even more humid outside than inside!)

2. Spend whatever money it takes to buy a quality dehumidifier and run it judiciously, or actually turn your heat up enough to handle the internal humidity

3. Stop air-drying your clothes in the house if you're getting mold!  Don't know how hard your washer spins but it could be up to a couple gallons of week of extra water you're adding to your home's atmosphere.  And with no heat on it'll condense out very quickly on surfaces all over the house.

Mold is no joke, I'd do almost anything to be able to go back in time to prevent what happened to me.


PS - supposedly bleach is ineffective at removing mold from porous surfaces
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: totoro on December 22, 2015, 10:01:38 AM
We had tenants who experienced window condensation and mold growth in the winter in the PNW.  It was weird because the unit below had no problems and had the same construction and general layout.

We brought in an expert who couldn't find the problem.  We gave them dehumidifiers to use.  We also replaced the shower surround and checked the bathroom fan.

These tenants eventually moved out (not because of mold issues - we didn't renew their lease) and new tenants moved in. 

It turned out that the previous tenants did not use the heat in the winter which caused all of the problems.  The current tenants keep the place warm and there is zero condensation on the windows or mold growth.

My view is that dehumidifiers might help a bit but they cost at least as much to run as turning up the heat. You'll probably benefit from a dehumidifier as an interim measure but, as others have said, try turning up the heat and keeping it up.  The energy savings are not worth the health impact of mold.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: justajane on December 22, 2015, 10:45:52 AM
My view is that dehumidifiers might help a bit but they cost at least as much to run as turning up the heat. You'll probably benefit from a dehumidifier as an interim measure but, as others have said, try turning up the heat and keeping it up.  The energy savings are not worth the health impact of mold.

+1. Unless your house if gargantuan (and in that case you are likely going to need multiple dehumidifiers anyway), it would be much more effective to just increase the heat to 62 or above. Be sure it runs a couple times a day at least.

I know some people do it on here, but I couldn't handle anything less than 62. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Rollin on December 23, 2015, 12:06:40 PM
We had some black mold in our house due to an unseen tiny plumbing leak some years back...now I suffer from painful and life-changing muscular-neurological problems that come on during the times of year when mold is most prevalent.  There are times if I am off my meds that it is a challenge to even lift my eyeballs up to look straight ahead - serious.

So my advice based on my experience is:

1. Throw any mustachian bullshit open the windows advice "out the window" (if your weather is anything like ours in DC this winter so far then it's even more humid outside than inside!)

2. Spend whatever money it takes to buy a quality dehumidifier and run it judiciously, or actually turn your heat up enough to handle the internal humidity

3. Stop air-drying your clothes in the house if you're getting mold!  Don't know how hard your washer spins but it could be up to a couple gallons of week of extra water you're adding to your home's atmosphere.  And with no heat on it'll condense out very quickly on surfaces all over the house.

Mold is no joke, I'd do almost anything to be able to go back in time to prevent what happened to me.


PS - supposedly bleach is ineffective at removing mold from porous surfaces

It seems as though this is where the panic is coming in.  Yes, if you have black mold from a plumbing leak you better get that fixed.  If you have surface mold from moist air that is much less drastic.  I may be wrong, but...
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Rollin on December 23, 2015, 12:08:37 PM
We had tenants who experienced window condensation and mold growth in the winter in the PNW.  It was weird because the unit below had no problems and had the same construction and general layout.

We brought in an expert who couldn't find the problem.  We gave them dehumidifiers to use.  We also replaced the shower surround and checked the bathroom fan.

These tenants eventually moved out (not because of mold issues - we didn't renew their lease) and new tenants moved in. 

It turned out that the previous tenants did not use the heat in the winter which caused all of the problems.  The current tenants keep the place warm and there is zero condensation on the windows or mold growth.

My view is that dehumidifiers might help a bit but they cost at least as much to run as turning up the heat. You'll probably benefit from a dehumidifier as an interim measure but, as others have said, try turning up the heat and keeping it up.  The energy savings are not worth the health impact of mold.

Good point! and tells me I should clarify that we use ours in one part of the house that is rather isolated from the rest of the hoouse, so turning up the heat for that one or two rooms is overkill.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Threshkin on December 23, 2015, 03:27:55 PM
If you use a dehumidifier, try to set it up so that it drains automatically.  If it drains into a container it can fill very quickly (in a couple of hours).  Once it is full the device will stop running.  If it drains automatically you don't need to worry about it.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: big_owl on December 23, 2015, 04:32:20 PM
It seems as though this is where the panic is coming in.  Yes, if you have black mold from a plumbing leak you better get that fixed.  If you have surface mold from moist air that is much less drastic.  I may be wrong, but...

Unfortunately I didn't get any choice in the matter of deciding which type of mold was growing in my house.   My research indicated that other types of mold are very effective at triggering negative responses in the body's immune system, as well as seeding long-term allergic reactions.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: sweettea on December 24, 2015, 08:10:52 AM
So I'm led to believe mold prefers to grow in warm environments; might I have success lowering my thermostat further while avoiding humidity?
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on December 24, 2015, 08:21:38 AM
So I'm led to believe mold prefers to grow in warm environments; might I have success lowering my thermostat further while avoiding humidity?

Warm air can hold more water. So warm air in your house will do a better job drying off surfaces. Mold prefers warm and wet but wet is more of a limiting factor than warm within human comfort ranges.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: justajane on December 24, 2015, 08:30:29 AM
So I'm led to believe mold prefers to grow in warm environments; might I have success lowering my thermostat further while avoiding humidity?

Wait, so now you want to lower your heat to less than 58? Do you really sweat at the 62-64 people have suggested? How do you possibly go anywhere but your home in the winter? That's some hard-core adjustment to the cold!
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Another Reader on December 24, 2015, 08:32:40 AM
Warming the air means it can hold more moisture.  The dehumidifier removes moisture from the air, so it works more efficiently at warmer temperatures.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Le Poisson on December 24, 2015, 08:37:48 AM
Think of the windshield in your car. If its covered in moisture, do you turn down the heat, or crank it up?

By cranking the heat, you can clear the moisture quickly. By opening the window you can vent the moisture out and normalize the temperature on both sides of the glass. By turning on the AC you can reduce the moisture content in the air in the car - but its not the cold air that does the defrosting, its the dehumidifier in the AC.

The easiest is to crank the heat. Same applies in your house.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: totoro on December 24, 2015, 09:39:24 AM
So I'm led to believe mold prefers to grow in warm environments; might I have success lowering my thermostat further while avoiding humidity?

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but might I suggest you research it thoroughly online via google if you still have questions remaining about whether you need to raise the temperature or not?

Here is a credible site that could be helpful in understanding things: http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/grho/grho_002.cfm

Warm humid environments can lead to mold growth BUT cold damp leads to excessive condensation and mold growth.  As has been stated, "cool air can hold less moisture than warm air, so the relative humidity (RH) rises as the air cools. For instance, house air at a reasonable 35 per cent RH at 22°C (71°F) will see an increase to 50 per cent RH when the same air is allowed to cool to 16°C (61°F). This can lead to condensation on windows and walls (for instance, in closets or behind furniture) and mold growth.

Basically, you are creating a more humid environment, all things considered, when you allow the house temperature to drop significantly. Window condensation will be the first sign of excessive house humidity. Blinds and curtains usually increase the occurrence of condensation. If condensation is taking place, make sure that you wipe it up diligently or raise the temperature setback (for example, from 16°C to 17°C [61°F to 63°F]) until you have lowered house humidity levels and condensation is no longer a problem.

A third potential problem is a sustained lack of air circulation as the house cools down."
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: sweettea on December 24, 2015, 01:23:02 PM
I was reading wikipedia... It said mold prefers growing from 75 to 90. I was thinking if I have less temperature differential I would have less water in the air and also have less condensation from the lower difference.

My dehumidifier claims to work great down to 42, so i dont think it is a reason to change temp now that I've dried out thw house. What humidity should I set it to for the long-term?

I don't think of 58 as a big deal, its still shortsleeves-indoors weather. I was, indeed, too hot at mid-60s lately and slept with a window open. I established last winter that 50 is a little cold for me when I'm awake, since I don't want to wear a coat or blanket indoors, but it works fine for night, and if cold plus coat helps keep mold defeated a little better than warmer well, seems like a great way of saving more money...

Thank y'all for suggestions so far, the mold seems thoroughly extinguished and not growing back, nor am I permitting condensation without cranking up the dehumidifier.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Exflyboy on December 24, 2015, 10:30:19 PM
HVAC engineer here.

For this reason I will not air dry clothes indoors as all the water in the wet clothes stays in the house.. Each pound of water will take 970BTU's to vapourise the water into steam in the dryer.. If you air dry inside the house, it will still take 970BTU's/lb.. if you dry in the dryer it will be the same amount of energy whether you use the dryer or the house heating system.. Not EXACTLY true because the discharge temperature of the dryer exhaust will be warmer. Also if you heat the house with gas and the dryer is electric then the electric will of course be more expensive.

Even so this difference in cost is not worth the risk of higher humitdity in the house.

If it is cold and frosty outside I would shut the heat off and ventilate the whole house for an hour with fans or open the windows if there is a breeze. then close everything up and warm up the house.. The cold dry air will turn into warm dry air and will suck up moistue like crazy... this will starve the mold of water to grow.

Do this a few times and the RH will drop.. worth investing in and RH meter to test when you have dropped the RH in the house.

if it is warm and wet outside the above method won't work.. then get a dehumidifier like others have suggested.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: sweettea on December 25, 2015, 05:18:01 AM
For this reason I will not air dry clothes indoors as all the water in the wet clothes stays in the house.. Each pound of water will take 970BTU's to vapourise the water into steam in the dryer.. If you air dry inside the house, it will still take 970BTU's/lb.. if you dry in the dryer it will be the same amount of energy whether you use the dryer or the house heating system.. Not EXACTLY true because the discharge temperature of the dryer exhaust will be warmer. Also if you heat the house with gas and the dryer is electric then the electric will of course be more expensive.

Difference: airdrying means those 970 BTUs stay inside as heat, dryering means they go outside wastefully? Perhaps there's something I misunderstand about dehumidifiers... Thanks!
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: justajane on December 25, 2015, 07:37:36 AM
@Exflyboy, but I'm constantly having to run a humidifier in the winter to keep myself from drying out and getting headaches. I figure air drying my clothes is just free humidity. But, then again, I don't have a mold problem. 
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Daley on December 25, 2015, 09:15:21 AM
Difference: airdrying means those 970 BTUs stay inside as heat, dryering means they go outside wastefully? Perhaps there's something I misunderstand about dehumidifiers... Thanks!

The dehumidifiers aren't the only thing you're misunderstanding here. I'm getting on my soapbox, and whether or not you see the love and the concern in the words I've typed is up to you, but it's there. You'll probably get offended, but I suggest you actually read every last word slowly and consider what's being said anyway.

In your quest to be as "mustachian" as possible, you have completely missed the greater lesson by only grasping onto the "cheap" part of the message and you're now progressively spending more and potentially creating more long term problems that will cost you several factors more to fix over the years than the money you're saving not using a clothes dryer or sufficiently heating your home in the winter. This is reactionary, short term planning. It's also called being penny wise and pound foolish. Others might also call it kicking the can down the road. The bottom line is that you're not thinking rationally and long term about your actions and consequences. I would go so far as to state that you are so short sighted and wrapped up in squeezing every last penny NOW that you don't see the hidden cost that will come LATER. Even now as the costs are coming due, YOU'RE STILL IGNORING THE OBVIOUS!

There's an apt phrase, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Have you given this axiom any consideration to unpack its meaning? Hint: It doesn't mean that by weight, the prevention is more expensive than the cure. It also doesn't mean that prevention should be avoided because it's always better to get a bulk deal. The phrase is talking about volume of effort and general resources. Realistically, the ounce of prevention financially actually means less effort poured in, and less money spent overall than the pound of cure takes - yet both fix the same thing.

Think rationally about this. How much money do you honestly think it would have cost just to have kept the house a bit warmer and dried your clothes in the dryer during the winter months? Let's be serious here, and I suspect you probably have a pretty good idea of how much the cost difference is. Now compare that against the cost of the dehumidifier you've now bought and the electrical consumption it will take to run (http://www.cadmusgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Dehumidifier-Metering-Study-Mattison-050912.pdf) and hopefully remediate the mold issue (which it really won't - you're just kicking the can down the road AGAIN). This is just short term cost. Let's go long view on this game.

Once mold sets up in your house, if you don't do something serious to get rid of it and change the environment to ensure it doesn't have the opportunity to set up again, what do you think the cost to fix this situation is going to be? What about the unintended consequences that you didn't think about?

I knew a couple of people with a mold issue in their house. Their grand solution? It wasn't changing how they heated and cooled the house. It wasn't steps to properly reduce home humidity through common sense - such as not making the air moist to begin with leaving them to set up some Rube Goldbergian solution to fix a problem that could have simply been avoided entirely. It wasn't cleaning and scrubbing and replacing mold-damaged items to remove potential sources for continued spore production and further organic waste for more mold to grow in. For 30 years, these people "treated" the mold problem in their house by repeatedly closing it up and leaving for eight hours while they ran an ozone generator to "kill the mold" because they didn't want to put in the effort to actually clean, abate, and do what was needed to make the home unfriendly to mold. They were also packrats. Care to guess how successful that solution was?

Their home is a toxic wasteland now. All of their antiques and rare books that they wanted to hand off to other family members have lost all salvageable value. The wife has a chronic cough and breathing problems now. The husband has had several health and neurological problems (http://www.ei-resource.org/expert-columns/dr.-lisa-nagys-column/neurological-and-immunological-problems-associated-with-mold-and-mycotoxin-exposure/) unusual to his family's medical history. Their legacy in this home is now a dumpster filled with moldy trash. How much money do you think they've really saved over the past three decades compared to what they spent on health care and lost in physical possessions?

This is your future if you don't wise up now, Scrooge McDuck. You're already halfway there, but it's not entirely too late for you... yet.

The Torah actually has some wise words on mold remediation. Even in modern times, this advice rings true and accurate. Read Leviticus 14:33-53 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+14%3A33-53&version=NIV) some time. HaShem didn't just say to bleach the mold, paint over the mold with Kilz, run a dehumidifier or an ozone generator; the advice was to REMOVE the mold, stick your possessions out to be bathed in the sunlight for a week (dry heat and UV), and thoroughly wash all fabric from inside the home.

The people in this community have helped tell you repeatedly what you need to do to change and prevent this mess from getting worse. Stop being a cheapskate and open up your pocketbook to do what actually needs to be done, and that starts with an attitude adjustment towards money - it should be a tool in your life, nothing more. The line between frugality and stinginess can be a fine one sometimes, especially in this forum, but the difference between that stinginess and frugality is the latter is financial prudence tempered with wisdom.... you clearly have not demonstrated wisdom in your judgment process thus far, even with your responses to the solutions offered. Don't do what you want to do, just suck it up and do what actually needs to be done. Certain modern practices have a cost to do right, stop being afraid of paying what you must to do so.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Jack on December 25, 2015, 09:39:18 AM
[wall of facepunches]

"...Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?"

In other words, Merry Christmas from I.P. Daley!
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Exflyboy on December 25, 2015, 10:35:49 AM
@Exflyboy, but I'm constantly having to run a humidifier in the winter to keep myself from drying out and getting headaches. I figure air drying my clothes is just free humidity. But, then again, I don't have a mold problem.

Exactly, I assume you live in a very cold part of the country?.. Cold air is very dry so yes in effect air drying your clothes is 'free" humidity.

Except of course its not really free as it will cost you energy to evaporate the water.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: justajane on December 25, 2015, 12:20:34 PM
@Exflyboy, but I'm constantly having to run a humidifier in the winter to keep myself from drying out and getting headaches. I figure air drying my clothes is just free humidity. But, then again, I don't have a mold problem.

Exactly, I assume you live in a very cold part of the country?.. Cold air is very dry so yes in effect air drying your clothes is 'free" humidity.

Except of course its not really free as it will cost you energy to evaporate the water.

I actually live in the lower Midwest, so not very cold. Much warmer than Boston. But our house is quite uninsulated -- 1920s plaster on brick construction -- so the heat probably has to work harder than it does on newer, more insulated home. Thus, the drier air.

I'm wondering if this house in Boston also has some basement moisture problems as well that the OP hasn't brought up? Some faulty gutters? A need for a sump pump? Or is the house situated in an unfavorable way for moisture? Is water not draining properly from the house?
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Exflyboy on December 25, 2015, 12:36:57 PM
For this reason I will not air dry clothes indoors as all the water in the wet clothes stays in the house.. Each pound of water will take 970BTU's to vapourise the water into steam in the dryer.. If you air dry inside the house, it will still take 970BTU's/lb.. if you dry in the dryer it will be the same amount of energy whether you use the dryer or the house heating system.. Not EXACTLY true because the discharge temperature of the dryer exhaust will be warmer. Also if you heat the house with gas and the dryer is electric then the electric will of course be more expensive.

Difference: airdrying means those 970 BTUs stay inside as heat, dryering means they go outside wastefully? Perhaps there's something I misunderstand about dehumidifiers... Thanks!

Yes at first galnce you would think thats how it works but in reality the energy it takes to evaporate the water is whats called latent heat. "Latent" means hidden. in other words you burn gas or electricity to evaporate the water from the clothes inside the house but the water is now in the atmosphere.

Then the next night when the house cools below the dewpoint (the temperature at which the air cannot hold water anymore because it has reached 100% relative humidity, warm air holds much more water than cold air.. so as you ccol it the ability to hold moisture goes down) the moisture will condense everywhere inside the house.

So guess what happens when you heat up the house again?.. Yup you increase the air temperature but part of that heat goes into evaporating all that moisture all over again.

So you waste energy over and over by re-evaporating the same moisture.. Oh and of course its feeding the mold over and over too.

So its much better to use an electric dryer to dry your clothes, get the moisture ut of the house and then your only evaporating all the water from the clothes just once, rather than over and over.

 Besides which as IP Daley pointed out, if you don't dry that out and kill all those mold spores you could get into real trouble down the road.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Exflyboy on December 25, 2015, 12:40:52 PM
@Exflyboy, but I'm constantly having to run a humidifier in the winter to keep myself from drying out and getting headaches. I figure air drying my clothes is just free humidity. But, then again, I don't have a mold problem.

Exactly, I assume you live in a very cold part of the country?.. Cold air is very dry so yes in effect air drying your clothes is 'free" humidity.

Except of course its not really free as it will cost you energy to evaporate the water.

I actually live in the lower Midwest, so not very cold. Much warmer than Boston. But our house is quite uninsulated -- 1920s plaster on brick construction -- so the heat probably has to work harder than it does on newer, more insulated home. Thus, the drier air.

I'm wondering if this house in Boston also has some basement moisture problems as well that the OP hasn't brought up? Some faulty gutters? A need for a sump pump? Or is the house situated in an unfavorable way for moisture? Is water not draining properly from the house?

Thats a very good point, a damp basement that does not have a vapour barrier between it and the house will do it to.

Any source of moisture has to be eliminated
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: justajane on December 25, 2015, 01:37:44 PM
So you waste energy over and over by re-evaporating the same moisture.. Oh and of course its feeding the mold over and over too.

In a house, however, that doesn't have a mold problem, doesn't high humidity make a house more comfortable in the winter, though? That's what I was always taught - that you can set the thermostat lower if you humidify the air in the winter.

I know that damp cold air can feel very bad, but I recall the few times I've been in low humidity areas when it's cold (like Prescott, Arizona) that is felt really, really cold. I mean, as someone who grew up in the humid South, when the wind whipped at 35 degrees there one winter in Arizona, I thought I was going to die. 35 degrees in the Midwest doesn't feel nearly as cold. Is what I'm saying stupid or is there some truth to it? I think there is a lot of misinformation going around in the interwebs about temperature and energy (e.g. the idea that it costs more to reheat a house therefore you should always keep it warm).

I'm finding this all very educational. Thanks to all those with knowledge in these subjects for sharing.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on December 25, 2015, 01:56:25 PM
Yesterday I opened the windows for a few hours because it was so warm. Yesterday evening my toilets were sweating.

I thought that's what was going on with the freezer, too, but it turns out my fridge broke on Christmas.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: former player on December 25, 2015, 02:31:46 PM
Any source of moisture has to be eliminated
I resemble that remark.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Thegoblinchief on December 26, 2015, 09:27:02 AM
We ran into this issue. Had moisture condensation so bad on the Windows that mold/mildews stuff was growing on the dusty surface of all the flat vinyl window surfaces (middle of the double hung, and the bottom sill of all the windows). It was pretty gross by the time we realized what was happening.

Remediation steps that helped us:

1. Running furnace fan 24/7 so the dehumidifier we need in basement pulls humidity out of whole house, not just basement.

2. Kicking heat up a tad.

3. Not just running shower vent fan but also squeegeeing the walls down so most residual humidity went down the drain instead of needing to evaporate.

4. I'd already given up on line drying indoors earlier in the year.

Question: best chemical to use in spraying down surfaces? Our vinyl Windows have a small groove between glass and the sill that liquid pools in and the mold has been regrowing from there. I have both bleach-based Tilex and Moldex bottles.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: sweettea on December 26, 2015, 10:40:29 PM
For this reason I will not air dry clothes indoors as all the water in the wet clothes stays in the house.. Each pound of water will take 970BTU's to vapourise the water into steam in the dryer.. If you air dry inside the house, it will still take 970BTU's/lb.. if you dry in the dryer it will be the same amount of energy whether you use the dryer or the house heating system.. Not EXACTLY true because the discharge temperature of the dryer exhaust will be warmer. Also if you heat the house with gas and the dryer is electric then the electric will of course be more expensive.

Difference: airdrying means those 970 BTUs stay inside as heat, dryering means they go outside wastefully? Perhaps there's something I misunderstand about dehumidifiers... Thanks!

Yes at first galnce you would think thats how it works but in reality the energy it takes to evaporate the water is whats called latent heat. "Latent" means hidden. in other words you burn gas or electricity to evaporate the water from the clothes inside the house but the water is now in the atmosphere.

Then the next night when the house cools below the dewpoint (the temperature at which the air cannot hold water anymore because it has reached 100% relative humidity, warm air holds much more water than cold air.. so as you ccol it the ability to hold moisture goes down) the moisture will condense everywhere inside the house.

So guess what happens when you heat up the house again?.. Yup you increase the air temperature but part of that heat goes into evaporating all that moisture all over again.

So you waste energy over and over by re-evaporating the same moisture.. Oh and of course its feeding the mold over and over too.

So its much better to use an electric dryer to dry your clothes, get the moisture ut of the house and then your only evaporating all the water from the clothes just once, rather than over and over.

I communicated my idea badly. Suppose you have a perfectly airtight, moldproof enclosure, which transmits heat to a house but does not transmit any water or air to the house. Suppose you linedry inside this enclosure, and also put a dehumidifier into the enclosure.

Assume it takes 970 btus to remove water from a unit of clothes in the dryer, and also 970 btus to remove that much water from air on a dehumidifier. Also assume no energy is stored in liquid water condensed from gaseous water evaporated from liquid water.

With such assumptions, the airtight chamber would airdry clothes, then spend 970 btus in heat condensing the water, then those 970 btus of heat would transmit to the house. Meanwhile, the dryer makes those 970 btus go outside.

Is this a valid line of reasoning? Could I build a 'dryer' in this fashion (ignoring for the moment the problem of airtight moldproof enclosures)?

</tinkering>

Thanks!

-someone who clearly doesn't understand hvac.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: totoro on December 27, 2015, 02:32:42 AM
You can use a dehumidifier to dry clothes inside - some places like Sweden have a separate drying room with a dehumidifier.

It appears that your question is, again, whether it is cheaper to use a dehumidifier than a dryer to dry clothes.  It might be in some cases but you have mold.  Mold is a very serious health issue.  You need to get rid of it and stop the conditions that encourage it as a priority.  You seem to want to leave the temperature down and dry your clothes inside again using the dehumidifier so you can save money. 

Bottom line is that dehumidifiers are useful during periods of damp weather, but are unlikely to stop mold growth by themselves.  They are also much more efficient when the air temperature is warmer.   Turn up the heat, stop drying your clothes inside, put lids on pots when you boil stuff and keep using the dehumidifier.  Remove existing mold thoroughly.

Mold will remain active as long as the humidity remains high, usually 60% or higher. Therefore, if you lower the humidity with a dehumidifier to 50% and maintain it there, the mold will become inactive and not get any worse. However, it will not die and disappear and it will still emit mold spores.

You have stated that, "the mold seems thoroughly extinguished and not growing back, nor am I permitting condensation without cranking up the dehumidifier".

That is pretty remarkable for only 10 days of using only a dehumidifier plus not drying clothes inside given that you had mold growing everywhere - doors, windows, books, wicker baskets, windowsills. How did you get the mold off of the surfaces? Also, have you checked hidden areas like wardrobes, under carpets, behind curtains and furniture?

Finally, here are some of the common symptoms to watch out for with mold in the environment:
• Chronic colds   • Flu-like symptoms • Chronic headaches   • Bloody noses  • Coughing   • Arthritic-like aches  • Sinus congestion   • Equilibrium or balance loss • Upper respiratory distress   • Irritation of the eyes, nose or throat  • Skin rashes   • Nausea

Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: former player on December 27, 2015, 02:40:17 AM
I communicated my idea badly. Suppose you have a perfectly airtight, moldproof enclosure, which transmits heat to a house but does not transmit any water or air to the house. Suppose you linedry inside this enclosure, and also put a dehumidifier into the enclosure.

Assume it takes 970 btus to remove water from a unit of clothes in the dryer, and also 970 btus to remove that much water from air on a dehumidifier. Also assume no energy is stored in liquid water condensed from gaseous water evaporated from liquid water.

With such assumptions, the airtight chamber would airdry clothes, then spend 970 btus in heat condensing the water, then those 970 btus of heat would transmit to the house. Meanwhile, the dryer makes those 970 btus go outside.

Is this a valid line of reasoning? Could I build a 'dryer' in this fashion (ignoring for the moment the problem of airtight moldproof enclosures)?

</tinkering>

Thanks!

-someone who clearly doesn't understand hvac.
If I had an outside which was transmitting heat to the house, then I would assume that outside was warmer than the inside and therefore more likely to dry the clothes quicker and using less energy, so I would dry the clothes outside if at all possible, using the sunniest, windiest spot available.

With a bit of care and timing, in many climates drying outside works pretty well.  It's how humans survived for all those hundreds of years after the common usage of washable clothes and bedding but before the invention of HVAC, dehumidifiers and central heating.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Mmm_Donuts on December 27, 2015, 08:08:34 AM

Question: best chemical to use in spraying down surfaces? Our vinyl Windows have a small groove between glass and the sill that liquid pools in and the mold has been regrowing from there. I have both bleach-based Tilex and Moldex bottles.

I've had success killing the black mold in our bathroom grout and silicone with a paste made of baking soda, liquid Castile soap (dr bronners), and a few drops of tea tree oil. The idea is to kill with antibacterials. I leave the paste in overnight and rinse / dry in the morning. So far it's worked well.

Bleach doesn't seem to kill the mold -- it just bleaches it.

I've read that a hydrogen peroxide solution will also work.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on December 27, 2015, 10:41:34 AM
I can't believe how stubborn OP is. This is one of the most ridiculous and infuriating threads I've ever followed on this forum.

Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Daley on December 27, 2015, 10:53:25 AM
We tried. Sweettea will find out soon enough on their own.

"A foole and his money be soone at debate: which after with sorow repents him too late."
-Thomas Tusser

"Of what use is money in the hand of a fool, since he has no intention of acquiring wisdom?"
-Proverbs 17:16 (NET)
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: sweettea on December 27, 2015, 11:35:00 AM
Dear Mustaches:

Please rest assured that I have been facepunched quite enough. In my previous state, I thought mold was merely a little disgusting-looking, and problematic when it got on books, but no big deal. I have been convinced by all yall that mold is the equivalent of a velociraptor gnawing on my house. My followon question came about because a dehumidifier is an intriguing engineering feat to me and the idea of a low-temperature moisture-remover set my gears turning.

Rabbi Daley provided an excellent set of advices, in particular. When warmth returns, I shall attempt to sunlight my belongings for a week. Meanwhile I can count the belongings which I have not rearranged to check for mold.

I apologize for being infuriating.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Daley on December 27, 2015, 01:15:24 PM
Sweettea, my apologies for heaping on and assuming the worst after your continued line of questioning. I, and I'm sure others here, are certainly thankful to hear that you are moving forward and treating the problem properly.

Regarding the dehumidifier angle against energy efficiency: From an artificial, mechanical engineering standpoint, it roughly takes just as much energy to condense water out of the air as it does to evaporate it. This is why dehumidifiers are such an energy suck to begin with, and why drought stricken areas such as California are turning to recycling waste water and desalination - as expensive as these methods are, it's still cheaper than industrial-scale water condensers. Dehumidifiers are no more complex or amazing than air conditioners, and in fact work the exact same way. The only difference is that you have both ends of the device indoors with the waste heat re-warming the air cooled over the coils to extract the water before being pumped back into the air - same guts but with none of the advantages of beneficial heat exchange.

The reason why heating the air is so much more efficient (mostly time-wise) than dehumidifying for drying is because heat not only accelerates evaporation, it permits the air to hold more water. Unfortunately, that removed moisture eventually has to go somewhere - and that somewhere is out into the world. There's a reason why people in the past didn't really wash their clothes in the Winter. A lot of these technical limitations is the reason why - the RH, the temperature, the ease of drying, etc. Dryers are a miraculous thing for allowing clean clothes during winter months. Could they be more efficient? Certainly! They're a pretty inefficient machine overall, but there are ways to gain and game that efficiency.

The real places where the greatest gains could be had to increase efficiency of a gas or electric clothes dryer when needed is the application of a counterflow heat exchanger between the exhaust air and a dedicated air intake for the dryer itself (something that houses really aren't set up to do), in addition to a high speed spin dryer to remove as much liquid water as possible through centrifugal force before evaporating the rest.

May this additional information help you to better tackle the efficiency issue going forward after resolving the health issue.

Edit: I'm adding a link to a few other alternative clothes drying methods (http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/alternatives-clothes-dryers). Some have utilized dehumidifiers in connection with dedicated wardrobes/rooms for drying (http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Clothes_dryer), which may be in line with some of your earlier thoughts. Ultimately though with the power poured in, even if a dehumidifier and fan has the potential to be more efficient overall with the longer dry time, the system is still pretty well closed with minimal benefit to the rest of the house.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: big_owl on December 27, 2015, 04:28:11 PM
Dear Mustaches:

Please rest assured that I have been facepunched quite enough. In my previous state, I thought mold was merely a little disgusting-looking, and problematic when it got on books, but no big deal. I have been convinced by all yall that mold is the equivalent of a velociraptor gnawing on my house. My followon question came about because a dehumidifier is an intriguing engineering feat to me and the idea of a low-temperature moisture-remover set my gears turning.

Rabbi Daley provided an excellent set of advices, in particular. When warmth returns, I shall attempt to sunlight my belongings for a week. Meanwhile I can count the belongings which I have not rearranged to check for mold.

I apologize for being infuriating.

No worries, sweettea.  Sometimes there's a fine line between mustachian badassity and mustachian dumbassity.  Looks like you're keeping on the correct side of the line now...if the urge to save a few bucks on heating comes back any time soon just remember...it literally hurts to raise my eyeballs to look straight ahead when I'm off my meds.  You don't want that to be you...
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Daley on December 27, 2015, 06:40:49 PM
Edit: I'm adding a link to a few other alternative clothes drying methods (http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/alternatives-clothes-dryers). Some have utilized dehumidifiers in connection with dedicated wardrobes/rooms for drying (http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Clothes_dryer), which may be in line with some of your earlier thoughts. Ultimately though with the power poured in, even if a dehumidifier and fan has the potential to be more efficient overall with the longer dry time, the system is still pretty well closed with minimal benefit to the rest of the house.

Follow-up to this little addendum and an effort to shift the topic towards alternative drying technologies. Before anyone gets too excited about the idea of doing a dehumidifier/fan/wardrobe setup, one should double check the math provided by the writer of that DIYWiki article. It's a bit skewed and biased, lacks substantial and practical evidence regarding general humidity and temperature levels, solid kWh usages (only napkin math estimates), mold risk, and the energy savings aren't anywhere near the 1/17th mark being boasted, as the math is... specious. One of the ironies of the article upon far closer inspection is this statement:

Quote
Why does it use less energy than a tumble dryer?
[snip]
The other use of energy in a tumbler is to turn the drum. Most tumble dryers have no drum bearings, and turn stiffly. This can take 100-200w. There is no such energy use with the dehumidifier.

[snip]
I find a 400W compressor based dehumidifier will dry a load of washing this way in 60 minutes after a 1400RPM spin. Towels and thick denims may require longer.

Now granted, I understand the point trying to be made. Electric dryers especially use considerably more than this (1800-5000W total), but the 400W dehumidifier is interesting - and it's probably running 100% of the time during that hour, making it about 0.4kWh per load roughly. Claims elsewhere are "as low as 0.15kWh per load" if you stretch the time out overnight, yet the price comparisons against electric dryers and energy usage with alternate models aren't consistent with these numbers reported, and appear to be far closer to that 0.4kWh in reality without even factoring additional power overhead for the fan and any potentially needed additional heat getting the dehumidifier up to its optimal efficiency heat range. The same high-RPM (1400+RPM) dryer spin-out reported on the 400W unit before going into an electric dryer shortens dry time to under 20 minutes per load. Michael Bluejay uses both this time estimate and an electric wattage estimate of 4400W for an electric dryer in his guide on saving energy on clothes drying. (http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/dryers.html) So, 4400/3=~1.467kWh per load. That's only a 3.67x power savings, and hardly the 17x numbers actually boasted about - and it probably gets worse with the average 1000RPM or slower spin-out when properly comparing apples to apples. Realistically at ~15¢/kWh, we're talking a difference at best of 16¢ a load. This doesn't factor further potential savings for those using natural gas, either.

The numbers on the DIYWiki also assume you're going to use this for 100% of your drying year round for every method.

Honestly, all of this just underlines the value of a high speed spin dryer across the board for overall energy and time savings. It also highlights the further annual marginal savings when you're only talking about using one of these methods for drying about 1/4th to 1/3rd of the year while line-drying the rest of the year. You're also talking about a larger footprint and extra effort to reinvent the wheel on something that bought used on both ends, run about the same cost to set up, but only if you already have the closet or wardrobe in advance.

Is it clever? Yes. Is it a potentially great energy savings? Ehh. Is it a more complex system? Yes. Does it come with greater risks? Possibly. I'm immensely frugal and practical, I'm even known for ranting about people who use more than 100MB of data on their mobile phones after all... which runs me dangerously close to the stingy line myself on occasion even if it is a reasonably justifiable rant. I'm also a dyed-in-the-wool environmental conservationist and advocate using less resources in general. Does it mean I'll be buying a dehumidifier to line dry clothes indoors after thoroughly dissecting the proposal? Probably not. There's a lot of trade-off and hidden costs with more mechanically complex systems, and we're pretty well talking about a savings of maybe $15-20 a year for most people who typically line dry in the first place.

Just some thoughts.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Exflyboy on December 27, 2015, 07:19:46 PM
The theory of using the dehumidifier is sound, how well it works in practice is up for debate of course.

The theory: A dehumidifier is a heat pump that will have a coefficience of performance of say 3 to 1, for arguments sake.

This means you pump 1 unit of electical energy in to get 3 units of cooling on the cold coil (this is what condenses the evaporated water). The 4 units of "waste" heat come from the warm coil. (i.e the 3 units from the cold coil plus the 1 unit of electrical energy).

so you put the wet clothes in the sealed closet the cold coil gets cold and the warm gets warm (duh).. and the closet gets a bit warmer than ambient due to the extra unit of electrical energy.

The nice warm air then evaporates, and each pound of water will take 970BTU's from the warm air in the closet... this evaporation will drop the closet temperature somewhat which will make the air less able to evaporate moisture.. so its a bit of a balancing act as to how fast water will be evaporated.

The warm moist air hits the coling coil, condenses below the dewpoint and the resulting water is collected inside the drip tray.. The cold air is then re-heated by the warm coil and you have warm air at a very low humidity ready to evaporate more water.

Bottom line.. In theory you are getting 3 times the dehumdifying than you are actually paying for... i.e COP= 3:1, so 3 units of dehumidifying for 1 unit of electrical energy.

But here is the rub.. this is all fine in theory but unless you are blowing the air through the fabric then the water will only evaporate from the outside of the clothes.. so the max rate of water extraction will be limited by this fact.

The problem of course is that the dehumidifier doesn't care whether it is happily condensing water.. it will still use the same amount of energy to run no matter how much water is being extracted.

For this reason dehumidifiers are very good at dehumidifying air, but I suspect less so at drying clothes and the savings compared to an electric dryer are somewhat less than the theory would imply.

So I would agree with IP Daley's hypothesis that it is likely great in theory, but less effective in real life.

All this to say, dry your clothes on the line OUTSIDE the house in the Summer (unless you want the moisture to stop your nose drying out), but certainly if you have mold use the electric dryer during the Winter.

Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: justajane on December 27, 2015, 08:12:44 PM
I think the OP should definitely use a dryer until the mold situation is solved, but FWIW I line dry a large percentage of my clothes and sometimes run a dehumidifier because it is better for the clothes. They last so much longer if you don't dry them. Plus no shrinkage. So the cost savings of having to buy clothes less often somewhat mitigates the increased cost of having to run a dehumidifier or increasing the heat.

Considering we've gotten EIGHT INCHES of rain in the past two days, our dehumidifier is working hard at the moment. 
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: pbkmaine on December 27, 2015, 08:25:47 PM
I live in Florida, and except for a few delicate items of clothing, everything goes in the dryer. Humidity is the enemy here.


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Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Exflyboy on December 27, 2015, 08:43:08 PM
Here in the Pacific Northwest where the state flower is mildew we also have to be very careful. Next door they are building this 3000sq ft house (monstrousity) and the framing has been soaked for several weeks day after day.

My fear is that they will wrap this thing in House wrap, put the roof shingles on and subesquently trap all that moisture in the timber of the house. Considering they have demolished several $1M+ homes due to black mold in recent years then as the homeowner I would be very concerned about this.

Personally I'd cover in in tarps until the Spring where it can dry out for a couple of weeks before I wrapped it.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: flower on December 28, 2015, 01:03:54 AM
Here's something I have always wondered about. When clothes are dried in the dryer, there are very few that need to be ironed. When they are line dried a lot more ironing has to happen.

I have always wondered how much electricity is really saved if you have to do a lot more ironing when you dry clothes on the line. Does anyone have ideas about this?

Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Frankies Girl on December 28, 2015, 04:40:39 AM
Here's something I have always wondered about. When clothes are dried in the dryer, there are very few that need to be ironed. When they are line dried a lot more ironing has to happen.

I have always wondered how much electricity is really saved if you have to do a lot more ironing when you dry clothes on the line. Does anyone have ideas about this?

Irons don't use anything near the same level as a clothes dryer, but the best solution is: Buy clothes that don't need to be ironed.

I'm not trying to be funny; I realized a while back that certain items made out of certain fabrics wrinkle like crazy and always have to be ironed, so I got rid of them and replaced them with items that never have to be ironed no matter how they are washed/dried. It saved me so much time and frustration.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Exflyboy on December 28, 2015, 11:21:26 AM
As pointed out earlier, it takes 970BTU's to evaporate moisture.

Whether that is done in the dryer or with an iron, the energy consumption is the same.. But of course if you iron indoors the moisture ends up inside the house. Thats a pretty small quantity though.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: KiwiSonya on December 28, 2015, 12:24:21 PM
Shit, this is my problem too. I get prolonged respiratory infections in winter due to mould. But was drying washing inside with dehumidifier on. Face punching accepted and practices will change.  I'm in New Zealand so enjoying summer right now but will sort my shit come winter. Thanks for the reminder not to be cheap.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: TomTX on December 28, 2015, 06:13:57 PM
Fortunately, I'm in a dry climate (central Texas) and don't have this issue. Running the electric dryer costs me at least 4x what running the gas furnace does on an equivalent BTU basis.

When I'm not line (rack) drying clothes inside in the winter, the humidity is often down to around 20% RH (yes, we keep it too warm. Compromises) - with a couple of wet loads spread around, it might get to 40%, peak at maybe 50% briefly if I just opened the dishwasher too, or there is cooking going on.

We've never had an indoor mold issue.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Bracken_Joy on December 28, 2015, 06:24:04 PM
TomTX, I don't understand the concept of 20-40% humidity (see attachment) . As mentioned upthread, mildew is the state flower out here!
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Exflyboy on December 28, 2015, 06:36:24 PM
Fortunately, I'm in a dry climate (central Texas) and don't have this issue. Running the electric dryer costs me at least 4x what running the gas furnace does on an equivalent BTU basis.

When I'm not line (rack) drying clothes inside in the winter, the humidity is often down to around 20% RH (yes, we keep it too warm. Compromises) - with a couple of wet loads spread around, it might get to 40%, peak at maybe 50% briefly if I just opened the dishwasher too, or there is cooking going on.

We've never had an indoor mold issue.

Right thats the opposite "problem" where you want moisture inside the house. In that case you still need the 970BTU's to evaporate the moisture.. but its a lot cheaper to burn gas then electricity.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Exflyboy on December 28, 2015, 06:45:13 PM
TomTX, I don't understand the concept of 20-40% humidity (see attachment) . As mentioned upthread, mildew is the state flower out here!

Exactly, never one to miss a teaching moment.. notice how the high humidity (relative) happens when the temperature is quite low.

In fact the RH of air when its cold with ice all over the place outside will be darn near to 100%.

So the question is what does "Realtive Humidity" mean. Well it is a measure of the moisture content of the air (in pounds of water in the English system of units), divided by the MAXIMUM moisture content of water in the air at THAT temperature.

As warm air can hold a LOT more water than cold air.. if you take cold air at close to 100% RH and warm it up but don't add any moisture the RH will drop rapidly.. because the ratio of actual moisture compared to the moisture which CAN be held at the higher temp goes way down with rising temperature.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Bracken_Joy on December 28, 2015, 07:05:15 PM
TomTX, I don't understand the concept of 20-40% humidity (see attachment) . As mentioned upthread, mildew is the state flower out here!

Exactly, never one to miss a teaching moment.. notice how the high humidity (relative) happens when the temperature is quite low.

In fact the RH of air when its cold with ice all over the place outside will be darn near to 100%.

So the question is what does "Realtive Humidity" mean. Well it is a measure of the moisture content of the air (in pounds of water in the English system of units), divided by the MAXIMUM moisture content of water in the air at THAT temperature.

As warm air can hold a LOT more water than cold air.. if you take cold air at close to 100% RH and warm it up but don't add any moisture the RH will drop rapidly.. because the ratio of actual moisture compared to the moisture which CAN be held at the higher temp goes way down with rising temperature.

Lightbulb moment. Thank you! Teachable moment indeed. I feel smarter now.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: TomTX on December 28, 2015, 07:32:53 PM
TomTX, I don't understand the concept of 20-40% humidity (see attachment) . As mentioned upthread, mildew is the state flower out here!

If you take that 39F/92% Relative Humidity air and heat it up to 70F, you drop the Relative Humidity to a bit below 40%.
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Exflyboy on December 28, 2015, 09:31:16 PM
TomTX, I don't understand the concept of 20-40% humidity (see attachment) . As mentioned upthread, mildew is the state flower out here!

If you take that 39F/92% Relative Humidity air and heat it up to 70F, you drop the Relative Humidity to a bit below 40%.

Correct, the tool most comonly used to determine this is the psychrometric chart shown below. This is very handy because it shows you the energy state of air at any condition (in BTU's per pound of air).. as the rate of change of energy is power (i.e BTU/Hour, where there are 3413BTU/Hr per killowatt), you can calculate how much power you have to pump in (or extract from) to the airstream when you want to change the state of the air at a known flowrate.

Its a very handy tool...:)

http://www.truetex.com/psychrometric_chart.gif
Title: Re: Help! Mold everywhere... how to stop?
Post by: Bearded Man on December 28, 2015, 10:35:15 PM
Seriously, turn up the heat and go get a dehumidifier ASAP! You are being a penny wise and pound foolish right now. The money you're saving by keeping your house at 58, not using the clothes dryer, and not investing in a dehumidifier is going to go right out the window when your house is condemned for mold! You will pay thousands and thousands of dollars to get mold taken care of, and who knows what your homeowners policy will say covering that if they determine it is caused by homeowner "neglect". Seriously! Alarm bells should be going off in your head right now! I'm not saying you need to go total unmustachian here and crank the heat to a permanent 78 and use the dryer for everything; but, getting the house back up to the mid-60s and dropping $150 for a dehumidifier (or getting on used on CL if there is one available for pick up TODAY), and using the clothes dryer a bit more for the next few months are smart, commonsense things that will end saving you money in the end.

This.