Author Topic: I thought the point was to invest for an income?  (Read 2795 times)

Minotaur

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I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« on: March 28, 2022, 02:47:18 PM »
I was doing some research and saw the stuff about Dividend investing not working so well anymore.
I thought the whole point of this was to invest an amount so you ended up with an income of 7% to retired on?

MDM

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2022, 06:43:51 PM »
7% is optimistic.  Might be worth reading Safe withdrawal rates - Bogleheads.

SwordGuy

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2022, 09:13:06 PM »
I was doing some research and saw the stuff about Dividend investing not working so well anymore.
I thought the whole point of this was to invest an amount so you ended up with an income of 7% to retired on?

Your income from stocks can come from dividends or from selling your stock.  If the stock has gained value since you bought it, you'll get income from that gain in value.

gooki

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2022, 02:33:38 AM »
7% before taxes and inflation.
4% after.

There's many ways to generate that level of passive income. Renting properties, dividend stocks, selling down growth stocks, or a mix of all of them.

reeshau

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2022, 06:24:24 AM »
7% before taxes and inflation.
4% after.


The 4% rule measures the safe level of gross withdrawals from your portfolio.  Including taxes and adjusting for inflation.  (The initial 4% is adjusted for inflation annually)  Any investment fees from mutual funds also have to be included.

A "7% rule" would give you a 45% chance of success over 30 years.

https://retirementresearcher.com/safe-withdrawal-rates-for-retirement-and-the-trinity-study/

Rob_bob

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2022, 12:57:36 PM »
I retired in 2020 and live off dividends.

LightStache

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2022, 09:05:54 PM »
I was doing some research and saw the stuff about Dividend investing not working so well anymore.
I thought the whole point of this was to invest an amount so you ended up with an income of 7% to retired on?

Around here the rule-of-thumb is to save 25x your annual spending, which equates to a 4% withdrawal rate. You keep this 25x "stache" in a broad index of stocks and bonds, which people tailor according to their personal risk tolerance. That blend inherently includes a lot of dividend-paying stocks, but nowhere near 7%.

Today's stocks yielding 7% would be VERY risky. Stable high dividend stocks pay around 4%. But you would probably incur extra risk by concentrating in a high-dividend portfolio.

High dividend companies are like Philip Morris and Exxon Mobil that have major headwinds to their businesses. A good historical example to see what can happen would be General Electric, which used to pay like $6/share and now pays $0.32/share! These companies have high yields now to keep their stock prices up because their future potential doesn't look so good.

jim555

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2022, 12:45:56 AM »
Never invest for income, invest for total return.

ChpBstrd

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2022, 10:37:44 AM »
Imagine there were only 2 categories of stocks: short-duration and long-duration.

Short duration stocks are earning lots of cash now, paying high dividends or doing buybacks, and trade at compelling valuations. However they are not growing, and a case could be made that they are invested in yesteryear's technologies and business modes, which are ripe for disruption. Investors anticipate future earnings will look something like:

Y1: $10
Y2: $10
Y3: $9
Y4: $8
Y5: $8
Y6: $7
...
Y15: $0

This stream of income is worth something, and analysts use discounted cash flow methods to value the company based on their projections.

Long-duration stocks are not earning much money now, and may still be making losses, and they generally pay no dividends, but expectations are high for earnings in the future because they have fast-growing technologies and business models. They tend to trade at high multiples of current earnings metrics, because nobody is buying them for their current earnings, they're buying the distant future. Expected earnings are the opposite of short-duration, and look something like:

Y1: $0
Y2: $0
Y3: $4
Y4: $6
Y5: $8
Y6: $10
...
Y15: $50

Again, a DCF analysis turns these projected cash flows into a present value for the company.

The reason I called them short-duration and long-duration instead of value and growth is because we need to think about the timing of our retirement cash flows.

If all our cash flows are from short-duration companies (e.g. a dividend portfolio), then our portfolio will eventually be rocked by disruptions (e.g. our brick-and-mortar retailers will be disrupted by e-commerce, our coal utilities replaced by now-cheap solar, and our manufacturers will be disrupted by cheaper overseas competitors) and we'll be holding a bunch of obsolete, money-losing companies cutting their dividends and buyback programs.

If all our cash flows are from long-duration companies (e.g. all those people in ARK funds), then we will have to fund our retirement by selling shares rather than through dividends. Also the present value of our distant future cash flows is more volatile than for short-duration companies, so we'll often be selling shares into downturns. The distant future might be bright, but getting there with any shares remaining in your portfolio is the challenge.

Dividend investing / short-duration investing hasn't been working lately because the pace of innovation / obsolescence has been increasing, which has caused short-duration companies to deliver disappointing earnings trajectories. GE is probably the poster child.

Minotaur

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2022, 05:07:33 PM »
Thanks for your replies.
I have not looked in a while and was surprised by this sudden change.
I suppose things like Covid have not helped a lot of the goof dividend stocks either.

boarder42

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2022, 05:26:06 PM »
Thanks for your replies.
I have not looked in a while and was surprised by this sudden change.
I suppose things like Covid have not helped a lot of the goof dividend stocks either.

Dividend investing has always been shit. This wasn't a sudden change.

Minotaur

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2022, 11:53:16 AM »
I retired in 2020 and live off dividends.
Any advice or tips?
Have you stuck FTSE100 or bought far and wide?

Rob_bob

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2022, 05:49:50 PM »
I retired in 2020 and live off dividends.
Any advice or tips?
Have you stuck FTSE100 or bought far and wide?

Broadly speaking I have a core portfolio of ETF in large mid and small cap stocks and some sector ETF and international.  This is the lower dividend higher growth portion.

Then I have an number of dividend paying stocks, REITs in various sectors, energy upstream and mid stream, nothing that issues a K-1 tax document, utilities.

Finally I have a number of Closed End Funds (CEF), low growth higher yields.

My taxable account is the lower yielding portion and Roth is higher yield, yet there is some overlap between the two.  To the dismay of the never invest for yield folks in 2020 my Roth has out performed the taxable account.

It also helps to have very low expenses, but that's why we are on this forum isn't it :)

SwordGuy

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2022, 08:35:59 AM »
I retired in 2020 and live off dividends.

What is your withdrawal rate?

Rob_bob

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2022, 11:28:24 AM »
I retired in 2020 and live off dividends.

What is your withdrawal rate?

My current withdrawal rate is about 2.6%, a little higher if you figure the sale of stock options.  If I were to pull all dividend income out of taxable and Roth accounts I would be at 3.7%.  That is at the current portfolio value which is higher than when I retired.

Minotaur

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Re: I thought the point was to invest for an income?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2022, 02:15:38 PM »
I retired in 2020 and live off dividends.

What is your withdrawal rate?

My current withdrawal rate is about 2.6%, a little higher if you figure the sale of stock options.  If I were to pull all dividend income out of taxable and Roth accounts I would be at 3.7%.  That is at the current portfolio value which is higher than when I retired.
Interesting. Thanks for that.