The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Eva_Eva on March 04, 2018, 06:59:45 AM
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I'm a moustachian newbie but have been reading the site for s while...
So this is my dilemma - I just turned 40 and thinking to have a baby on my own but the huge student loan debt is constantly on my mind...and the temptation is to do both at the same time? Obviously, I am terrified. I am at $117K in SL (don't ask, please!) and at 6.5% and I might be able to refinance down to 4% and aggressively pay this off in 5 years. But at 40, I have decided to get pregnant by the end of the year. If I refinance, it would be through my credit union and that means I will no longer benefit from the potential of any legislation that might be passed in the future (if the Dems take back congress, there might be a slim chance) so I am knowingly giving up that opportunity. I have no other debt and my living expenses are pretty low - $3000 which includes $800/student loans.
These are my numbers: NET - 80K/ year, $35K in retirement, emergency $3000. Having a baby on my own + my insurance with Kaiser is about $2K for the fertility clinic and $260 for delivery. I have lots of maternity and baby stuff from friends so I wouldn't need to buy too much.
Should I refi my student loans and throw $3K / month for 5 years until I am done with it, or should I wait until after I have a baby? I am relying on no one but myself with everything.
Thank you,
E.
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You're making 80k a year, and you're 40. You have low personal expenses. So why haven't you paid off your student loans yet?
You're proposing bringing a baby into a single income household with huge debt. You will be starting off short of money, short of time, and short on help. This takes a difficult situation (having a newborn and then toddler) and makes it much harder. Are you proposing having this child from fear of missing out because of your age, or a real desire to care for another human being for 20+ years?
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Hmmm, someone else asked a remarkably similar question very recently. Her situation is close enough to yours that I'm going to give you the same answer I gave her. I hope you find it helpful. Perhaps the two of you can become Forum Friends, as it seems you have a lot in common...
Dear woolgather,
What I love about this forum is that I know others will jump into the math and offer great suggestions.
I have a lot to say, but I'll focus mainly on the topic in your case study that hits home the most. Background: I am from SoCal and lived in LA from '80-'92. I am the oldest of six children. When I grew up, I had no interest in marrying young or having a family. Then I had a rare form of cancer. I realized what matters in life is the quality of the relationships you build. Not job status, not money. Well, not quite. Money was what was going to protect me from a recurrence of cancer, or at least make any future treatment decisions easier. So I set out to make myself financially independent before FI was a "thing", and to find myself a spouse and then have four children. Yup, four.
I worked at this for decades. I dated tons of men of every stripe. Eventually, I decided to step out of my career position and work at Nordstrom in the Men's Department, just to meet more men! I took a huge pay cut, but damn, it worked! It was great meeting new people of the male persuasion every single day. I met tons of guys with great careers and a wide variety of interests. It was fun, and several became long term relationships, but none of them was "the one". The older I got, the more it bothered me. I knew I was not a candidate for single motherhood, primarily because it costs so damn much to live in LA and my income wasn't high enough to go it alone.
Finally, as I got a little too old for childbearing, I said "Fuck this, I need to earn more money." I got the hell out of retail and never looked back. I still dated, but since they weren't coming to me every day any more, I tried online dating, word of mouth, community activities, everything I could thing of. I really, really thought the lesson of cancer was to slow me down and re-focus me in time to be able to find a great partner, build a strong marriage and have a family. Apparently God was busy laughing at my plans.
I was sad, but determined not to be Debbie Downer about what I didn't have. I traveled, did fun stuff, and enjoyed what I could do without dwelling on my dreams that clearly were not coming to fruition. Pretty soon my friends, single and married, were saying that they wanted to have my life. Huh.
Fast forward to 2012. I was 54 and all hopes of children were long gone. Thoughts of marriage were pretty dim, too. However, FI was finally on the very near horizon. I had everything figured out but health insurance (this was pre-Obamacare + pre-existing conditions). I had a chat with a guy I'd known for years. (I let his family use my address to get their kids into a better school district years before, after their house sale in the district fell through.) He was a recent widower. I asked him if he'd consider letting me be his imagionary domestic partner so I could quit my job, buy a motorhome and travel the country.
He readily agreed and then shocked the hell out of me by saying he'd even marry me on paper if that would help, because of what I'd done for his kids. He then said his healthcare plan covered his whole family for the same (almost zero) cost. Plus, he had a motorhome! What the hell??? We went out to dinner to discuss what a crazy-ass idea it was. One dinner led to another, and then dinners somewhere became dates, then we fell in love. We eloped a few months later.
Fast forward five years. We are happy beyond our wildest imagination. His daughter got married and had a baby, making us grandparents! Remember that line, "If we'd known how much fun grandkids are, we'd have had them first"? It's completely true! I was never a mom, but now I get to be a grandmother. I'm here to tell you, it is awesome. I never dreamed any of this, but I am ridiculously glad it turned out this way. I am actually completely comfortable now that I did not have kids of my own, because I don't think I would have been a great mother, much as I was sure it was my destiny.
So that's the short version of my story. Here is my advice: The kid thing is going to sort itself out one way or another and either result will be something you can live with. For now, take care of the relationship that appears to be ending. Figure out your new housing arrangements. Decide if your job pays enough for what you give up. Fix your credit. (Can you become an Authorized User on someone's credit long enough to shape up your own credit?) Work on being the best "YOU" you can possibly be. Everything will fall into place in its own time. And it will be good, even if it is nothing like anything you ever imagined.
Best wishes,
Dicey
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Babies are hard!!! What is your family support like?
Your insurance is great, do you work at Kaiser? How much does daycare cost in your area? Does it line up with your work schedule, or would you have to hire a nanny? What would your day be like if you add drop off and pick up at the ends?
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You're making 80k a year, and you're 40. You have low personal expenses. So why haven't you paid off your student loans yet?
You're proposing bringing a baby into a single income household with huge debt. You will be starting off short of money, short of time, and short on help. This takes a difficult situation (having a newborn and then toddler) and makes it much harder. Are you proposing having this child from fear of missing out because of your age, or a real desire to care for another human being for 20+ years?
Ouch!!! And thanks for your input! It's easy looking from the outside in and there's no shortage of judgement, I can assure you. Without going into personal details and reliving some tough times in my life, here are the numbers: (I make 80K NET which is $130 gross).
Here's some more info:
- my Kaiser Permanente plan pays for fertility treatments (if I need any) at 100%!!!! but all my tests say I can have perfectly healthy babies with no intervention. I am looking to do IUI via sperm donor, to be clear. KP also charges $260 for the either traditional or Cesarian so no expenses there. Considering everything goes well, the actual procedure shouldn't go over $3K.
- I am on pace to save $25K by time of delivery in emergency funds (if I do NOT refinance my student loans - my biggest dilemma!).
- day care (part time) - great suggestion to tour potential child care places, instead of just looking them up online!
- I am maxing out my 401K & bumping up my own Roth IRA (money with which I play to aggressively invest - it's been going great!!).
- I am also (somewhat) relying on my mother to help pre and post birth so the part-time childcare as she wouldn't have it any other way :)
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Babies are hard!!! What is your family support like?
Your insurance is great, do you work at Kaiser? How much does daycare cost in your area? Does it line up with your work schedule, or would you have to hire a nanny? What would your day be like if you add drop off and pick up at the ends?
I know they're hard and I am mentally, emotionally, and (hoping financially) prepared!
- I don't work at Kaiser but I work for a company that very much cares about its employees and they chose this and I just found out Kaiser pays 100% of fertility treatments if I would need any but my doctor says I don't need anything but to select my sperm donor. I have *some* freedom and flexibility at work but not a lot. I can however leave work to feed/check on baby (great work environment, colleagues/boss, etc.). I would need to hire a nanny probably part time - my mother would help somewhat but not with difficult stuff although she can drive here and there to pick up stuff for me, if need be. Daycare (part-time) in the DC area is at about $600/month but I may be fooling myself. I will gather more info on this but even at $1000/month, I can still manage. My only debt is $117K in student loans and my only expenses are: $1700 - housing, $130 phone, $50 internet, $50 electric, $300 food (alone). I will be getting everything I'd need for the baby from family and friends - stroller, clothing, and all the jazz... I am maxing out my 401K & independently investing & playing with my Roth IRA investments (they've been doing great!).
That's everything.
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You're making 80k a year, and you're 40. You have low personal expenses. So why haven't you paid off your student loans yet?
You're proposing bringing a baby into a single income household with huge debt. You will be starting off short of money, short of time, and short on help. This takes a difficult situation (having a newborn and then toddler) and makes it much harder. Are you proposing having this child from fear of missing out because of your age, or a real desire to care for another human being for 20+ years?
Ouch!!! And thanks for your input! It's easy looking from the outside in and there's no shortage of judgement, I can assure you. Without going into personal details and reliving some tough times in my life, here are the numbers: (I make 80K NET which is $130 gross).
Here's some more info:
- my Kaiser Permanente plan pays for fertility treatments (if I need any) at 100%!!!! but all my tests say I can have perfectly healthy babies with no intervention. I am looking to do IUI via sperm donor, to be clear. KP also charges $260 for the either traditional or Cesarian so no expenses there. Considering everything goes well, the actual procedure shouldn't go over $3K.
- I am on pace to save $25K by time of delivery in emergency funds (if I do NOT refinance my student loans - my biggest dilemma!).
- day care (part time) - great suggestion to tour potential child care places, instead of just looking them up online!
- I am maxing out my 401K & bumping up my own Roth IRA (money with which I play to aggressively invest - it's been going great!!).
- I am also (somewhat) relying on my mother to help pre and post birth so the part-time childcare as she wouldn't have it any other way :)
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You're making 80k a year, and you're 40. You have low personal expenses. So why haven't you paid off your student loans yet?
You're proposing bringing a baby into a single income household with huge debt. You will be starting off short of money, short of time, and short on help. This takes a difficult situation (having a newborn and then toddler) and makes it much harder. Are you proposing having this child from fear of missing out because of your age, or a real desire to care for another human being for 20+ years?
... and to answer your question - both! I don't want to miss out on the opportunity - I am super healthy, good looking, sane, great genes, etc... and I have an innate desire to have at least one child. Please abstain from further judgement. It's tough as it is!
Thank you!
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I'm shocked if daycare in DC is that low. Definitely do more research there. It may be twice what you think it is, and preschool will be too. You won't get away from that expense until school age and then there is the cost of after school care.
Also, I would caution you against relying so much on the very low kaiser costs at your current employer. what if you are laid off in the next year? what if the company changes your medical coverage to something worse before delivery?
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You have a great job with great benefits. Yes you have debt, but, whatever, it’s SL, worst case make minimum payments forever. But at 40 your window is closing and if this is what you want, do it. After the kid maybe you can’t do a side hustle that helps pay the loan down? I think you can do this!
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I'm shocked if daycare in DC is that low. Definitely do more research there. It may be twice what you think it is, and preschool will be too. You won't get away from that expense until school age and then there is the cost of after school care.
Also, I would caution you against relying so much on the very low kaiser costs at your current employer. what if you are laid off in the next year? what if the company changes your medical coverage to something worse before delivery?
So I am doubling childcare to be safe at $1,200/ month part-time and am by default a minimalist, I don't eat out ever, I don't buy stuff I absolutely, don't need, etc.
Good cautionary word - I am not fully relying on my employer & Kaiser (I hope people know Kaiser is 100% employer paid), but even with my old insurance/employer (with *bad* benefits), my health was $140/month (medical & dental) so that's not too scary.
And I will take credit for what it's worth because I busted my butt to get where I am, and I am in a very niche industry and job market which pretty much guarantees me no less than $125K for years to come so I am not very afraid of my situation changing too much (unless god forbid something horrible happens but those things nobody can really predict).
Thanks so much for your input!
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You have a great job with great benefits. Yes you have debt, but, whatever, it’s SL, worst case make minimum payments forever. But at 40 your window is closing and if this is what you want, do it. After the kid maybe you can’t do a side hustle that helps pay the loan down? I think you can do this!
Thank you! I think the consensus is to go against refinancing and prioritize saving for the baby while making as high payments into student loans, as possible and in time... I will be debt-free and with a beautiful baby! :)
Thank you!
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You're making 80k a year, and you're 40. You have low personal expenses. So why haven't you paid off your student loans yet?
You're proposing bringing a baby into a single income household with huge debt. You will be starting off short of money, short of time, and short on help. This takes a difficult situation (having a newborn and then toddler) and makes it much harder. Are you proposing having this child from fear of missing out because of your age, or a real desire to care for another human being for 20+ years?
Ouch!!! And thanks for your input! It's easy looking from the outside in and there's no shortage of judgement, I can assure you. Without going into personal details and reliving some tough times in my life, here are the numbers: (I make 80K NET which is $130 gross).
Here's some more info:
- my Kaiser Permanente plan pays for fertility treatments (if I need any) at 100%!!!! but all my tests say I can have perfectly healthy babies with no intervention. I am looking to do IUI via sperm donor, to be clear. KP also charges $260 for the either traditional or Cesarian so no expenses there. Considering everything goes well, the actual procedure shouldn't go over $3K.
- I am on pace to save $25K by time of delivery in emergency funds (if I do NOT refinance my student loans - my biggest dilemma!).
- day care (part time) - great suggestion to tour potential child care places, instead of just looking them up online!
- I am maxing out my 401K & bumping up my own Roth IRA (money with which I play to aggressively invest - it's been going great!!).
- I am also (somewhat) relying on my mother to help pre and post birth so the part-time childcare as she wouldn't have it any other way :)
No judgement intended. I'm looking at the numbers you've quoted for income and expense, and then the amount you've managed to save, and the amount of debt you're accumulated . . . and they're not really adding up. You have great potential to save tons of money, but haven't shown the ability to do so. This is worrying because you're going to depend on the ability to exploit this potential.
I'm glad to hear that you have a designated child care provider / support for yourself in your mother. A newborn child requires an astonishing amount of time, and will eat into your ability to sleep. My wife and I didn't really have any support group to help us, and really struggled to keep it together for this period. When you posted that you were 'relying on no one but myself with everything' that was another big red flag from what I was reading.
What exactly does 'aggressively investing' mean? Stock picking, crypto currency?
Again, my intent wasn't to judge you, but to advise caution. I have a personal friend who made her life very difficult doing similar to what you suggested in the OP. She had a child as a single mother, she had a good paying job, she had nobody who was able to help her with the kid, and she had no savings to speak of. And we're in Canada, where health care costs aren't a factor. After her 30 odd weeks of maternal leave were up, she went back to work while paying an arm and a leg for daycare. Sleep deprivation and lack of focus at work after having the child got her laid off from her job a year later. She couldn't afford daycare without the job, and then looking after her kid became so demanding that she couldn't find another job as a software developer. Five years on, her kid is in school and she's looking for low level jobs . . . as the software development field is pretty competitive and she has a big gap in her resume.
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If everyone waited to get their finances in order before having a baby we would be in a bad spot as a species. If you really want a baby go for it. You’ll figure out the finances later. You will be in a much better spot than many parents just based on your salary and awareness. I think most parents would agree that children are the best irrational decisions ever made.
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GuitarStv has a very good point. Your income compared to savings isn't adding up. If you don't already, you need to track your expenses for a few months to make sure you know what you're spending money on.
You're also counting on your mom to help. Does she know this? Is she agreeable? What's her health like? Taking care of an under 5 is HARD, even if she's willing to help she may not be able to.
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If everyone waited to get their finances in order before having a baby we would be in a bad spot as a species. If you really want a baby go for it. You’ll figure out the finances later. You will be in a much better spot than many parents just based on your salary and awareness. I think most parents would agree that children are the best irrational decisions ever made.
I love how you put it and yes, when I look around me and see perfectly well-raised kids with poor parents I do think I am in a better position. I am not risk-averse -- I have taken some massive risks in my life and I am aware of the hardships a baby may bring. I am the strongest person (not just woman!!) I know and I don't just say this.
Thank you!
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GuitarStv has a very good point. Your income compared to savings isn't adding up. If you don't already, you need to track your expenses for a few months to make sure you know what you're spending money on.
You're also counting on your mom to help. Does she know this? Is she agreeable? What's her health like? Taking care of an under 5 is HARD, even if she's willing to help she may not be able to.
Yes, a very good point indeed but if we must go into personal details, here we go - I am an immigrant who came to the US at 15 yo alone; us immigrants start at negative, not at zero - please understand this! After finishing high-school and after having just lost my father, I took various food service jobs to make ends meet in a new country and also help my family back in the motherland. This forced me to delay going to University and I did (stupidly) choose a good but very expensive one, which in turn made me getting into good jobs while being judge too old for them, which didn't allow me to save much. I have also been financially supporting my mother, made some bad investments at the wrong time in my life, and I haven't been making 130K for 10 years but yea, valid points. My mother is my best friend in the world and she made it clear she wouldn't be able to help with picking up baby, bathing, staying up all night and that's ok - having her emotional support and her cooking is very much appreciated. She's incredibly agreeable, the smartest woman I know, in good health, on her own for 30 years raising 3 kids + a business, etc. and I am her baby for whom she wants nothing but to see happy with a child and (ideally) a loving husband but since that's not happening at the moment, she's understanding of my situation.
Thank you for your comment!
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You're making 80k a year, and you're 40. You have low personal expenses. So why haven't you paid off your student loans yet?
You're proposing bringing a baby into a single income household with huge debt. You will be starting off short of money, short of time, and short on help. This takes a difficult situation (having a newborn and then toddler) and makes it much harder. Are you proposing having this child from fear of missing out because of your age, or a real desire to care for another human being for 20+ years?
Ouch!!! And thanks for your input! It's easy looking from the outside in and there's no shortage of judgement, I can assure you. Without going into personal details and reliving some tough times in my life, here are the numbers: (I make 80K NET which is $130 gross).
Here's some more info:
- my Kaiser Permanente plan pays for fertility treatments (if I need any) at 100%!!!! but all my tests say I can have perfectly healthy babies with no intervention. I am looking to do IUI via sperm donor, to be clear. KP also charges $260 for the either traditional or Cesarian so no expenses there. Considering everything goes well, the actual procedure shouldn't go over $3K.
- I am on pace to save $25K by time of delivery in emergency funds (if I do NOT refinance my student loans - my biggest dilemma!).
- day care (part time) - great suggestion to tour potential child care places, instead of just looking them up online!
- I am maxing out my 401K & bumping up my own Roth IRA (money with which I play to aggressively invest - it's been going great!!).
- I am also (somewhat) relying on my mother to help pre and post birth so the part-time childcare as she wouldn't have it any other way :)
No judgement intended. I'm looking at the numbers you've quoted for income and expense, and then the amount you've managed to save, and the amount of debt you're accumulated . . . and they're not really adding up. You have great potential to save tons of money, but haven't shown the ability to do so. This is worrying because you're going to depend on the ability to exploit this potential.
I'm glad to hear that you have a designated child care provider / support for yourself in your mother. A newborn child requires an astonishing amount of time, and will eat into your ability to sleep. My wife and I didn't really have any support group to help us, and really struggled to keep it together for this period. When you posted that you were 'relying on no one but myself with everything' that was another big red flag from what I was reading.
What exactly does 'aggressively investing' mean? Stock picking, crypto currency?
Again, my intent wasn't to judge you, but to advise caution. I have a personal friend who made her life very difficult doing similar to what you suggested in the OP. She had a child as a single mother, she had a good paying job, she had nobody who was able to help her with the kid, and she had no savings to speak of. And we're in Canada, where health care costs aren't a factor. After her 30 odd weeks of maternal leave were up, she went back to work while paying an arm and a leg for daycare. Sleep deprivation and lack of focus at work after having the child got her laid off from her job a year later. She couldn't afford daycare without the job, and then looking after her kid became so demanding that she couldn't find another job as a software developer. Five years on, her kid is in school and she's looking for low level jobs . . . as the software development field is pretty competitive and she has a big gap in her resume.
I understand but I am used to loss and hardship - trust me and I am preparing for it!
As always, everyone's situation is unique but to give more insight as to why I haven't been able to pay off my student loans, here it is:
If we must go into personal details, here we go - I am an immigrant who came to the US at 15 yo alone; us immigrants start at negative, not at zero - please understand this! After finishing high-school and after having just lost my father, I took various food service jobs to make ends meet in a new country and also help my family back in the motherland. This forced me to delay going to University and I did (stupidly) choose a good but very expensive one, which in turn made me getting into good jobs while being judge too old for them, quite hard thus, I wasn't able to save much.
I have also been financially supporting my mother, made some bad investments at the wrong time in my life, and I haven't been making 130K for 10 years but yea, valid points. My mother is my best friend in the world and she made it clear she wouldn't be able to help with picking up baby, bathing, staying up all night and that's ok - having her emotional support and her cooking is very much appreciated. She's incredibly agreeable, the smartest woman I know, in good health, on her own for 30 years raising 3 kids + a business, etc. and I am her baby for whom she wants nothing but to see happy with a child and (ideally) a loving husband but since that's not happening at the moment, she's understanding of my situation.
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First off I’d like to say that you sound like a wonderful hard working person.
“Life is what happens when your busy making plans”.
I think most people want to grow from their parents. (I’m making assumptions about your mother, I apologize if I’m out of line). I’m assuming your mother came to America to give you a better chance. You have done well for your self. Let’s face it, Anyone making over 100k is doing well. If you do have a child they could further improve the family legacy.
So you have some debt. Perhaps you will break even and your child will be an example of mustacheism. Is that so bad?
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So here's the thing- coming from a person (me) who does not like babies, does not want babies, and thinks the overall focus on reproduction is too overbearing and many time unnecessary. Here's the thing, I also believe in personal choice.
Have a baby if you want a baby. Period. Regardless of your S.Loans.
When people post on these MMM forums with their case studies and they state their debt to income ratios, food costs, etc. etc. and list their family members, no one says "have you considered giving your children up for adoption so that you could cut on food/housing costs?". No one says that. But essentially it's the same thing as people telling you not to have a baby if that's one of your life goals/THE life goal.
People will request advice on these forums who are in DIRE financial situations and they will mention that they also have a newborn at home... people will say "congrats on the baby" and then dish out financial advice that does not otherwise relate to the existence or non-existence of that baby.
Would I have a baby in your situation? Nope. But I wouldn't have one in ANY situation, so who gives a crap about my opinion on what you do with your body and money?
Work out your financial life to get your student loans paid off, or at least pay toward them more aggressively.... and have your baby. If you ask for financial advice here, tell everyone you have a newborn and you'll get more direct advice that doesn't involve NOT having a baby.
Good luck.
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So here's the thing- coming from a person (me) who does not like babies, does not want babies, and thinks the overall focus on reproduction is too overbearing and many time unnecessary. Here's the thing, I also believe in personal choice.
Have a baby if you want a baby. Period. Regardless of your S.Loans.
When people post on these MMM forums with their case studies and they state their debt to income ratios, food costs, etc. etc. and list their family members, no one says "have you considered giving your children up for adoption so that you could cut on food/housing costs?". No one says that. But essentially it's the same thing as people telling you not to have a baby if that's one of your life goals/THE life goal.
People will request advice on these forums who are in DIRE financial situations and they will mention that they also have a newborn at home... people will say "congrats on the baby" and then dish out financial advice that does not otherwise relate to the existence or non-existence of that baby.
Would I have a baby in your situation? Nope. But I wouldn't have one in ANY situation, so who gives a crap about my opinion on what you do with your body and money?
Work out your financial life to get your student loans paid off, or at least pay toward them more aggressively.... and have your baby. If you ask for financial advice here, tell everyone you have a newborn and you'll get more direct advice that doesn't involve NOT having a baby.
Good luck.
Love everything about this.
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So here's the thing- coming from a person (me) who does not like babies, does not want babies, and thinks the overall focus on reproduction is too overbearing and many time unnecessary. Here's the thing, I also believe in personal choice.
Have a baby if you want a baby. Period. Regardless of your S.Loans.
When people post on these MMM forums with their case studies and they state their debt to income ratios, food costs, etc. etc. and list their family members, no one says "have you considered giving your children up for adoption so that you could cut on food/housing costs?". No one says that. But essentially it's the same thing as people telling you not to have a baby if that's one of your life goals/THE life goal.
People will request advice on these forums who are in DIRE financial situations and they will mention that they also have a newborn at home... people will say "congrats on the baby" and then dish out financial advice that does not otherwise relate to the existence or non-existence of that baby.
Would I have a baby in your situation? Nope. But I wouldn't have one in ANY situation, so who gives a crap about my opinion on what you do with your body and money?
Work out your financial life to get your student loans paid off, or at least pay toward them more aggressively.... and have your baby. If you ask for financial advice here, tell everyone you have a newborn and you'll get more direct advice that doesn't involve NOT having a baby.
Good luck.
Well said, Janet
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I'm shocked if daycare in DC is that low. Definitely do more research there. It may be twice what you think it is, and preschool will be too. You won't get away from that expense until school age and then there is the cost of after school care.
This. Infant care is very expensive (at least $1000/month in DC area, if not more) and day care centers usually do not provide "part time" options (who fills the slot the rest of the day?) And you will be paying for care until kindergarten, and after care / summer care for years after.
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You're making 80k a year, and you're 40. You have low personal expenses. So why haven't you paid off your student loans yet?
You're proposing bringing a baby into a single income household with huge debt. You will be starting off short of money, short of time, and short on help. This takes a difficult situation (having a newborn and then toddler) and makes it much harder. Are you proposing having this child from fear of missing out because of your age, or a real desire to care for another human being for 20+ years?
... and to answer your question - both! I don't want to miss out on the opportunity - I am super healthy, good looking, sane, great genes, etc... and I have an innate desire to have at least one child. Please abstain from further judgement. It's tough as it is!
Thank you!
Welcome, I think you must be new here! (The whole point of this forum is to issue face-punches)
Financially, it's pretty clear that you have not done well with the cash that you have been making. Though, I don't think this question is really about that. You will need to change, make more, spend less. The 6% vs 4% is hardly your issue.
You are 40, you want a kid. If you wait, you may not be able to do that, I don't think you even have an option here you basically HAVE to have that kid, if you want it.(which you do)
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Not everything is about $. YOur time is running out to have a baby and if you really want one then I would do it. It also sounds like some of your $ is going to support your Mom which is probably why you have not saved as much as some think you should have.
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- day care (part time) - great suggestion to tour potential child care places, instead of just looking them up online!
- I am maxing out my 401K & bumping up my own Roth IRA (money with which I play to aggressively invest - it's been going great!!).
- I am also (somewhat) relying on my mother to help pre and post birth so the part-time childcare as she wouldn't have it any other way :)
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I have also been financially supporting my mother, made some bad investments at the wrong time in my life, and I haven't been making 130K for 10 years but yea, valid points. My mother is my best friend in the world and she made it clear she wouldn't be able to help with picking up baby, bathing, staying up all night and that's ok - having her emotional support and her cooking is very much appreciated. She's incredibly agreeable, the smartest woman I know, in good health, on her own for 30 years raising 3 kids + a business, etc. and I am her baby for whom she wants nothing but to see happy with a child and (ideally) a loving husband but since that's not happening at the moment, she's understanding of my situation.
So, with your income I honestly don't think the financial side of things is insurmountable, as it sounds like you maybe made some subpar choices in the past but have learned from them, now have a more frugal lifestyle, etc. $100k in student loans is a lot, but it is not like, say...$100k in credit card debt. It doesn't sound like you are set on early retirement so I think if you're willing to work into your 60s yes, you can manage it from a money perspective.
HOWEVER!!! I do also think you really need to get a better handle on childcare costs and also on what the first year of motherhood especially are going to be like.
First, you say you are going to rely on your mother to help with the baby so you will only need PT care. Then you say your mother won't be able to help with "picking up baby, bathing, staying up all night and that's ok". So...what childcare is your mother realistically going to be able to provide? it sounds like she might not be able to handle the weight of a baby? An infant <6 months needs to be fed 6-12x/day. This involves picking them up and holding them. They can't move anywhere on their own so if you want to take them from one room to another you have to pick them up and carry them. Even after 6 months, it's still a loooooooong time before they stop constantly wanting to be picked up, held, and carried. And then once they get older, they get more willful and sometimes you have to pick them up and haul them off to bed, home, wherever, and they WILL use their entire bodies to resist you if they don't want to do whatever it is you need/want them to do. My mom is also 70 and in reasonably good health and when we have visited recently she's made it pretty clear she is not certain of her ability to physically keep up with our toddler if he decides he doesn't want to leave the park, cross the street (while in the middle of the street), etc. She needs my dad or another adult around to do the really physical stuff. And I really have a pretty compliant and well behaved 2 year old, compared to some I have seen. I think you need to have a long hard think about how much help your mother can safely provide, and anticipate that you will have to look elsewhere for much of your childcare. Hopefully she can fill in some gaps to give you some more flexibility in what you need.
So, next up is the cost of getting someone else to care for your kids. I am really shocked at the idea of being able to get FT care in DC for $1200/month. I live in a HCOL area also (SF bay area) and here are some samples of what childcare for a <2 year old might be:
In-home daycare (generally the cheapest option): $1400-$1800/month. I have seen a couple under <$1400 and they were pretty dismal: almost no natural light, crowded, and very small outdoor playspace. You are usually relying on 1-2 people in these cases so closures due to illness or vacation can be more frequent. I toured several near our home and about half the ones I visited had scheduled vacations of 2-3 weeks/year, for example. Then they might be closed for holidays that your office is not closed for. So you will need to have some backup childcare options available there.
Larger daycare center: $1700-$2700/month. Probably somewhat more reliable as they have more staff, but they can still have a lot of scheduled closure days (a co-worker of mine has just started her son at a place that has 35 scheduled closure days each year!).
Nanny: A personal nanny for just your kid is $20-25/hr. Add 10-15% if you want to do it legally with W-2, payroll taxes, etc (and legally you are supposed to do that if you are paying the nanny more than $1900/yr). Your nanny will likely expect to get paid 52 weeks/yr (if you won't, she can find someone else who will!).
Nannyshare: Hire a nanny to watch your kid +1-2 other kids. In our area, the current cost is about $12/hr per kid for 3 kids, $15/hr per kid for 2 kids. Again, budget more to do it legally. This can save you some $$, BUT...you either have to have a space suitable for hosting 1-2 other kids, or schlep your kids to another house every day, which makes it no more convenient than a daycare. Also, the other family (or families) may drop out of the share, and if you can't find another family to fill their spot right away, you wind up eating some costs.
Finally, in our area at least, daycare spots are HARD to find. You may have a certain amount you plan to pay, but find that none of the daycares in your price range have a spot open, so then you wind up being stuck with a more expensive option. Here's what wound up happening with us:
4 months pregnant: found a cheaper daycare ($1400/month) with a spot likely available in 8 months. Perfect! Then spot fell through due to another kid having a sibling on the way, so we were back to square one when we found out (when my son was about a week old).
0-3 months: Maternity leave, so no costs (well, I was at about 50% of my regular pay).
3-5 months: Found a temporary part-time in-home daycare setup and husband and I both did some work from home and used some vacation days so that we only needed care 3 days/week. $225/week, or about $975/month.
5-6 months: Nannyshare, full-time as we could no longer finagle enough WFH/vacation to continue our 3 days/week deal. Intended to do this with 3 families, but could not secure a 3rd family in time. Set up payroll and all that, cost was close to $2800/month. With a 3rd family it went down to about $2100. Other family was also making noise about having nanny prepare kids food when they started solids and that costing another $5/day, so that would have been another ~$150/month or an awkward showdown about what the hell a 6 month old is eating that costs $5/day.
6 months-age 2: got a spot in a daycare center in my office, initially $2000/month, then $2100/month, now down to $1850/month as kid has turned two. From years 3-5 I am guessing it will be about $1700/month (cost goes down as they get older, but fees overall go up every year....).
All this is with my husband in the picture, which means he is able to help with getting the kid to/from care, sometimes stay home with the kid if he is sick, step up and do more childcare if I am sick, and take care of the kid on the weekends so that I have some time to get stuff done or just be on my own. If I did not have a husband in the picture I think I really would need *some* kind of weekend childcare (maybe this is an area your mom can help out with?), and babysitters are about $20/hr. I also know of parents who have to hire a nanny/babysitter to do pickup or drop off from daycare because one of the parents travels a lot or the daycare hours are not compatible with their work schedule (e.g. daycare doesn't open until 8:30 but both parents have to be at work by 8:30).
It may only be for a few years, but I do think for that period you are going to need to budget more than $1200/month for childcare. Probably quite a bit more. If not, hats off to you.
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I'm in the SF bay area and have teenagers.
I just looked up the current price at their preschool, which is not infant daycare but which does take toddlers beginning at age 2.
See attached!
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So here's the thing- coming from a person (me) who does not like babies, does not want babies, and thinks the overall focus on reproduction is too overbearing and many time unnecessary. Here's the thing, I also believe in personal choice.
Have a baby if you want a baby. Period. Regardless of your S.Loans.
When people post on these MMM forums with their case studies and they state their debt to income ratios, food costs, etc. etc. and list their family members, no one says "have you considered giving your children up for adoption so that you could cut on food/housing costs?". No one says that. But essentially it's the same thing as people telling you not to have a baby if that's one of your life goals/THE life goal.
People will request advice on these forums who are in DIRE financial situations and they will mention that they also have a newborn at home... people will say "congrats on the baby" and then dish out financial advice that does not otherwise relate to the existence or non-existence of that baby.
Would I have a baby in your situation? Nope. But I wouldn't have one in ANY situation, so who gives a crap about my opinion on what you do with your body and money?
Work out your financial life to get your student loans paid off, or at least pay toward them more aggressively.... and have your baby. If you ask for financial advice here, tell everyone you have a newborn and you'll get more direct advice that doesn't involve NOT having a baby.
Good luck.
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Thank you - although you just sounded like my mother :), your answer gives me a new perspective and I appreciate that.
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I have a friend from college who basically did that - had two kids by herself, one before 40 and one after 40.
It's super hard. She really had to develop a village. She can't jump work ship easily for more $$ because she needs flexibility and time off.
But she wouldn't have it any other way.
Oh, and she lives in the DC area - was in Old Town Alexandria, now Fairfax area I think.
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So here's the thing- coming from a person (me) who does not like babies, does not want babies, and thinks the overall focus on reproduction is too overbearing and many time unnecessary. Here's the thing, I also believe in personal choice.
Have a baby if you want a baby. Period. Regardless of your S.Loans.
When people post on these MMM forums with their case studies and they state their debt to income ratios, food costs, etc. etc. and list their family members, no one says "have you considered giving your children up for adoption so that you could cut on food/housing costs?". No one says that. But essentially it's the same thing as people telling you not to have a baby if that's one of your life goals/THE life goal.
People will request advice on these forums who are in DIRE financial situations and they will mention that they also have a newborn at home... people will say "congrats on the baby" and then dish out financial advice that does not otherwise relate to the existence or non-existence of that baby.
Would I have a baby in your situation? Nope. But I wouldn't have one in ANY situation, so who gives a crap about my opinion on what you do with your body and money?
Work out your financial life to get your student loans paid off, or at least pay toward them more aggressively.... and have your baby. If you ask for financial advice here, tell everyone you have a newborn and you'll get more direct advice that doesn't involve NOT having a baby.
Good luck.
This.
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I say..... do it.
I do wish your SLs were lower but it is what it is. My neighbor did what you did (baby on her own via artificial insemination) and although it was a struggle at times, she did it all on her own with a public school teacher salary. She didn't even have much family nearby to help. It is doable!
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I'm in the SF bay area and have teenagers.
I just looked up the current price at their preschool, which is not infant daycare but which does take toddlers beginning at age 2.
See attached!
Thank you so much for this - yes, I think SF and DC are very comparable given that both cost of living and salaries are on the high-end side of the spectrum. I just revisited some DC websites and they're similar to these prices. I can do $2000/ month without my other being around to help at all but as I said, she could at a minimum cook, drive, clean, and do laundry and that's A LOT and I know I will appreciate every tiny bit of help she can offer.
Thanks so much for your input!
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You're making 80k a year, and you're 40. You have low personal expenses. So why haven't you paid off your student loans yet?
You're proposing bringing a baby into a single income household with huge debt. You will be starting off short of money, short of time, and short on help. This takes a difficult situation (having a newborn and then toddler) and makes it much harder. Are you proposing having this child from fear of missing out because of your age, or a real desire to care for another human being for 20+ years?
... and to answer your question - both! I don't want to miss out on the opportunity - I am super healthy, good looking, sane, great genes, etc... and I have an innate desire to have at least one child. Please abstain from further judgement. It's tough as it is!
Thank you!
Welcome, I think you must be new here! (The whole point of this forum is to issue face-punches)
Financially, it's pretty clear that you have not done well with the cash that you have been making. Though, I don't think this question is really about that. You will need to change, make more, spend less. The 6% vs 4% is hardly your issue.
You are 40, you want a kid. If you wait, you may not be able to do that, I don't think you even have an option here you basically HAVE to have that kid, if you want it.(which you do)
Thank you!
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Not everything is about $. YOur time is running out to have a baby and if you really want one then I would do it. It also sounds like some of your $ is going to support your Mom which is probably why you have not saved as much as some think you should have.
Right! And who's to say the situation can't change? I know someone that did this and met a wonderful man while she was pregnant!!! He stuck around even though she couldn't be bothered but he did and when she was ready, they got married. We just don't know what might happen. We can plan all we want like my own mother to be married to one husband but not only that didn;'t happen (my sister's father died in an accident), then she lost her second - nobody ever thinks of that, yet we plan for this perfect life we all know it doesn't exist. Things can change and sometimes, they change for the better. While I very much appreciate all the warnings, there are good things about having a kid that most don't even notice - like have someone around when I'm old, the way I am for my mother. Is that so selfish? It's enough I grew up without a father and in a foreign country; I now feel like I must justify my choice while they might not have gone through the amount of deliberation and calculation I have been going through prior-to.
Thank you!
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I say..... do it.
I do wish your SLs were lower but it is what it is. My neighbor did what you did (baby on her own via artificial insemination) and although it was a struggle at times, she did it all on her own with a public school teacher salary. She didn't even have much family nearby to help. It is doable!
Wow that must have been hard. Thank you for the vote of confidence. There are women on the sperm bank blog who think of getting pregnant with their 3rd(!!!!!!) child and I can't imagine. It's not just the money they need but also the energy and the overall support so coming from women that actually went through this, I am cautiously optimistic!
Thanks for your input!
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At your age, if you want to have a child, you have to do it now; and even then it might be really hard.
You don't have time to get your finances in order.
As a single parent, and knowing you will be a single parent, I think you need to think really hard about the possible adverse situations. And maybe every single one of them is worth the risk to you to become a parent. But please don't just consider the best case scenarios. It could be really really hard to do. Your life may become unimaginably complicated
I was not yet advanced maternal age, in great health, my genetics are totally normal with no risk factors for serious conditions, and I had a genetic related loss that has been extremely difficult to get my life back in order from. Maybe it would have been even harder if I didn't lose the baby; because I wouldn't be able to care for him (if he ever left the NICU) and work at the same time. No daycare in our area would have been able to take him, including the special needs daycare. Would you be able to deal with a situation where you couldn't work anymore?
My second pregnancy, which thankfully resulted in a healthy baby, had complications too, and the risks of those get higher as you get older.
But if you have an overwhelming desire to have and raise a child, that trumps everything. You have to do it before it is too late. It's called a biological clock for a reason. Your SLs will wait; your uterus won't.
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First off I’d like to say that you sound like a wonderful hard working person.
“Life is what happens when your busy making plans”.
I think most people want to grow from their parents. (I’m making assumptions about your mother, I apologize if I’m out of line). I’m assuming your mother came to America to give you a better chance. You have done well for your self. Let’s face it, Anyone making over 100k is doing well. If you do have a child they could further improve the family legacy.
So you have some debt. Perhaps you will break even and your child will be an example of mustacheism. Is that so bad?
I have brought my whole family here so it was the other way around, actually. I have always provided for them and part of the reason why I haven't been able to save. Only 2 years ago I started making over 100K. ... and DC is super expensive.
Thanks for your vote of confidence!
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I'm going to be a voice of caution here. I would be most concerned by the lack of slack in your plan to be a single parent.
MOM
You stated that your mom is unable or unwilling to lift baby or a number or other things related to caring for an infant. So you have almost no slack at home in case you get ill or are unable to care for the infant. How old is your mom? Is she self-sufficient financially? If her health began to fail, would you be the only available care-giver for her? Would she be able to afford assisted living or a similar care facility or is she depending on you? How does your mom feel about caring for a school aged child or a teenager?
HCOL
You live in a HCOL urban area which means there is less slack in the costs of things like housing, groceries, childcare, etc. Can you send kid out to play by him/herself or are organized (paid) activities the norm? Once child is in school (no day care) you still have early out days, snow days, holidays, sick days, and summers as well as before and after school care to arrange. These just eat up more of your salary in a HCOL. There's a reason families tend to move out to the burbs.
SINGLE
Do you currently socialize with other families/parents with children? Do you have built-in babysitters other than your mom (siblings, cousins, etc). Do you have neighbors with whom you could trust to watch your child if there was a snow day and mom wasn't available?
FINANCES
You've got quite a bit of debt which means little slack in your budget if you want to raise a child and pay it off before retirement. Will you want to travel to your country of origin? Will you want to pay for your child's college education? Will you want to send your child to private school? Your past actions don't seem to suggest that you've yet mastered sustained financial good decision making. Do you think this will change?
All of these are things to consider. And you may still say, yes, I really want to have a child. But with the lack of slack, one "unforseen" consequence could be significant. Here are a few that I can think of:
-lose job or are laid off (no second income earner to soften the blow)
-have a child with significant medical or psychological needs
-mother has stroke and you become caregiver to infant and senior simultaneously
Parenting is wonderful and tough. Single parenting can be even more challenging as you don't really have a built-in tag team partner who can pick things up when you flame out (which happens to all parents at one point or another). Add financial stress on top of this and you are choosing a very difficult path. I wish you the best in making the decision.
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My wife and I have a newborn, multiples more income, and less student loan debt at a lower rate. I think you might be wildly underestimating the work involved in caring for a baby. We also have the advantage of Mrs.UpwardlyMobile’s parents being our neighbors. Pay off the debt, a kid is probably not in your cards. You’d basically be choosing to be poorer, stressed and struggling.
How do you have such huge debt at 40?
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I have a friend from college who basically did that - had two kids by herself, one before 40 and one after 40.
It's super hard. She really had to develop a village. She can't jump work ship easily for more $$ because she needs flexibility and time off.
But she wouldn't have it any other way.
Oh, and she lives in the DC area - was in Old Town Alexandria, now Fairfax area I think.
Thank you! I am actively working on finding women in similar situation in the DC area. I'd love to connect with her.
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I'm shocked if daycare in DC is that low. Definitely do more research there. It may be twice what you think it is, and preschool will be too. You won't get away from that expense until school age and then there is the cost of after school care.
This. Infant care is very expensive (at least $1000/month in DC area, if not more) and day care centers usually do not provide "part time" options (who fills the slot the rest of the day?) And you will be paying for care until kindergarten, and after care / summer care for years after.
... and yet people somehow get through with a lot less money and they raise wonderful children. It just seems that no matter how rosy my situation is, or the way I might see it (maybe foolishly so), most are warning me as if it's an absolutely impossible thing to do.... yet people do it every day somehow. Thank you!
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I'm shocked if daycare in DC is that low. Definitely do more research there. It may be twice what you think it is, and preschool will be too. You won't get away from that expense until school age and then there is the cost of after school care.
This. Infant care is very expensive (at least $1000/month in DC area, if not more) and day care centers usually do not provide "part time" options (who fills the slot the rest of the day?) And you will be paying for care until kindergarten, and after care / summer care for years after.
... and yet people somehow get through with a lot less money and they raise wonderful children. It just seems that no matter how rosy my situation is, or the way I might see it (maybe foolishly so), most are warning me as if it's an absolutely impossible thing to do.... yet people do it every day somehow. Thank you!
Your subject line is "Have a baby on my own or pay off student loans" as if you are trying to decide between those two things.
How about instead you ask "I have an upcoming project that will be a massive investment in both time and money. In preparation to that thing, should I refinance my student loans?"
You phrased this like you wanted advice about the idea of having a baby; which you clearly do not.
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- day care (part time) - great suggestion to tour potential child care places, instead of just looking them up online!
- I am maxing out my 401K & bumping up my own Roth IRA (money with which I play to aggressively invest - it's been going great!!).
- I am also (somewhat) relying on my mother to help pre and post birth so the part-time childcare as she wouldn't have it any other way :)
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I have also been financially supporting my mother, made some bad investments at the wrong time in my life, and I haven't been making 130K for 10 years but yea, valid points. My mother is my best friend in the world and she made it clear she wouldn't be able to help with picking up baby, bathing, staying up all night and that's ok - having her emotional support and her cooking is very much appreciated. She's incredibly agreeable, the smartest woman I know, in good health, on her own for 30 years raising 3 kids + a business, etc. and I am her baby for whom she wants nothing but to see happy with a child and (ideally) a loving husband but since that's not happening at the moment, she's understanding of my situation.
First, you say you are going to rely on your mother to help with the baby so you will only need PT care. Then you say your mother won't be able to help with "picking up baby, bathing, staying up all night and that's ok". So...what childcare is your mother realistically going to be able to provide? it sounds like she might not be able to handle the weight of a baby? An infant <6 months needs to be fed 6-12x/day. This involves picking them up and holding them. They can't move anywhere on their own so if you want to take them from one room to another you have to pick them up and carry them.
Was that a typo or will your mother really not be able to physically pick up the baby? If so, I don't see how she could be alone with the baby for even a short period of time, much less provide PT child care.
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I say if you really want to have a kid (and I 110% understand that), then you need to work on getting pregnant yesterday. In the interim, do a case study here and do Everything Possible to cut your budget to the bone, tackle that debt, get your savings propped up, and research all available resources available to you.
My opinion is that having a kid is not like having a fancy car or some other luxury in life. It is one of those few fundamental things that make your life fulfilling if that is what you want. Money is a tool to bring us happiness, and you don’t want to reach FI to look back with regrets on missed opportunities. If this is the thing you really want to do in life, then go for it. The compromise is that everything else must be subservient to that goal.
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My wife and I have a newborn, multiples more income, and less student loan debt at a lower rate. I think you might be wildly underestimating the work involved in caring for a baby. We also have the advantage of Mrs.UpwardlyMobile’s parents being our neighbors. Pay off the debt, a kid is probably not in your cards. You’d basically be choosing to be poorer, stressed and struggling.
How do you have such huge debt at 40?
@MrUpwardlyMobile You *just* had a baby -- how dare you (a man!!!) tell me 'a kid is probably not in your cards'???? What kind a monster must you be to intentionally come on this board and tell a stranger that ... perhaps while holding your newborn? ... Actually, don't answer that! Hold your baby and your wife tightly! Some of us aren't so lucky!
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- day care (part time) - great suggestion to tour potential child care places, instead of just looking them up online!
- I am maxing out my 401K & bumping up my own Roth IRA (money with which I play to aggressively invest - it's been going great!!).
- I am also (somewhat) relying on my mother to help pre and post birth so the part-time childcare as she wouldn't have it any other way :)
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I have also been financially supporting my mother, made some bad investments at the wrong time in my life, and I haven't been making 130K for 10 years but yea, valid points. My mother is my best friend in the world and she made it clear she wouldn't be able to help with picking up baby, bathing, staying up all night and that's ok - having her emotional support and her cooking is very much appreciated. She's incredibly agreeable, the smartest woman I know, in good health, on her own for 30 years raising 3 kids + a business, etc. and I am her baby for whom she wants nothing but to see happy with a child and (ideally) a loving husband but since that's not happening at the moment, she's understanding of my situation.
First, you say you are going to rely on your mother to help with the baby so you will only need PT care. Then you say your mother won't be able to help with "picking up baby, bathing, staying up all night and that's ok". So...what childcare is your mother realistically going to be able to provide? it sounds like she might not be able to handle the weight of a baby? An infant <6 months needs to be fed 6-12x/day. This involves picking them up and holding them. They can't move anywhere on their own so if you want to take them from one room to another you have to pick them up and carry them.
Was that a typo or will your mother really not be able to physically pick up the baby? If so, I don't see how she could be alone with the baby for even a short period of time, much less provide PT child care.
She could pick up a baby but I'd rather her not -she's had back problems since she gave birth to me. She's find - I just don't want her to do anything that would bring her physical pain. Moral and emotional support is so important to me as I am preparing for this and that is all I am expecting.
Thank you!
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I'm shocked if daycare in DC is that low. Definitely do more research there. It may be twice what you think it is, and preschool will be too. You won't get away from that expense until school age and then there is the cost of after school care.
This. Infant care is very expensive (at least $1000/month in DC area, if not more) and day care centers usually do not provide "part time" options (who fills the slot the rest of the day?) And you will be paying for care until kindergarten, and after care / summer care for years after.
... and yet people somehow get through with a lot less money and they raise wonderful children. It just seems that no matter how rosy my situation is, or the way I might see it (maybe foolishly so), most are warning me as if it's an absolutely impossible thing to do.... yet people do it every day somehow. Thank you!
Your subject line is "Have a baby on my own or pay off student loans" as if you are trying to decide between those two things.
How about instead you ask "I have an upcoming project that will be a massive investment in both time and money. In preparation to that thing, should I refinance my student loans?"
You phrased this like you wanted advice about the idea of having a baby; which you clearly do not.
My dilemma was doing both - having a child and refinance to pay off debt within 5 years - *at the same time*. I got answers and more... this forum is kinda like Twitter - people will judge you and decimate you to pieces with their holier-than-thou perspective on life. Thank you!
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I'm shocked if daycare in DC is that low. Definitely do more research there. It may be twice what you think it is, and preschool will be too. You won't get away from that expense until school age and then there is the cost of after school care.
This. Infant care is very expensive (at least $1000/month in DC area, if not more) and day care centers usually do not provide "part time" options (who fills the slot the rest of the day?) And you will be paying for care until kindergarten, and after care / summer care for years after.
... and yet people somehow get through with a lot less money and they raise wonderful children. It just seems that no matter how rosy my situation is, or the way I might see it (maybe foolishly so), most are warning me as if it's an absolutely impossible thing to do.... yet people do it every day somehow. Thank you!
Your subject line is "Have a baby on my own or pay off student loans" as if you are trying to decide between those two things.
How about instead you ask "I have an upcoming project that will be a massive investment in both time and money. In preparation to that thing, should I refinance my student loans?"
You phrased this like you wanted advice about the idea of having a baby; which you clearly do not.
My dilemma was doing both - having a child and refinance to pay off debt within 5 years - *at the same time*. I got answers and more... this forum is kinda like Twitter - people will judge you and decimate you to pieces with their holier-than-thou perspective on life. Thank you!
You might want to check out the Pregnancy group journal. Lots of helpful stuff there, including the finances of IVF/IUI, and budgeting for a baby.
That might give you advice about having a baby (vs the -idea- of having a baby.)
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I'm shocked if daycare in DC is that low. Definitely do more research there. It may be twice what you think it is, and preschool will be too. You won't get away from that expense until school age and then there is the cost of after school care.
This. Infant care is very expensive (at least $1000/month in DC area, if not more) and day care centers usually do not provide "part time" options (who fills the slot the rest of the day?) And you will be paying for care until kindergarten, and after care / summer care for years after.
... and yet people somehow get through with a lot less money and they raise wonderful children. It just seems that no matter how rosy my situation is, or the way I might see it (maybe foolishly so), most are warning me as if it's an absolutely impossible thing to do.... yet people do it every day somehow. Thank you!
Your subject line is "Have a baby on my own or pay off student loans" as if you are trying to decide between those two things.
How about instead you ask "I have an upcoming project that will be a massive investment in both time and money. In preparation to that thing, should I refinance my student loans?"
You phrased this like you wanted advice about the idea of having a baby; which you clearly do not.
My dilemma was doing both - having a child and refinance to pay off debt within 5 years - *at the same time*. I got answers and more... this forum is kinda like Twitter - people will judge you and decimate you to pieces with their holier-than-thou perspective on life. Thank you!
You might want to check out the Pregnancy group journal. Lots of helpful stuff there, including the finances of IVF/IUI, and budgeting for a baby.
That might give you advice about having a baby (vs the -idea- of having a baby.)
Thank you - had no idea that existed. Is it under the Forum topics?
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It's under mustachian community then under journals and it's called baby and pregnancy chat. People there are generally very supportive. What you're finding to be rude on the main form is just the way we operate here. It's not meant to be rude it's meant to be eye opening and to realize that debt is an emergency and you have to fix it. We don't sugarcoat.
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My wife and I have a newborn, multiples more income, and less student loan debt at a lower rate. I think you might be wildly underestimating the work involved in caring for a baby. We also have the advantage of Mrs.UpwardlyMobile’s parents being our neighbors. Pay off the debt, a kid is probably not in your cards. You’d basically be choosing to be poorer, stressed and struggling.
How do you have such huge debt at 40?
You *just* had a baby -- how dare you (a man!!!) tell me 'a kid is probably not in your cards'???? What kind a monster must you be to intentionally come on this board and tell a stranger that ... perhaps while holding your newborn? ... Actually, don't answer that! Hold your baby and your wife tightly! Some of us aren't so lucky!
That "man!!!" is telling you from his own personal experience that a newborn is a lot of hard work. I don't see anything monstrous in his post. He isn't wishing childlessness on you.
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Please think long and hard about this. When I read your posts it sounds like you really haven't considered anything other than a perfect outcome. I became a single mother (not by choice) when my daughter was 2 months old. I moved in with my parents who were able to help me somewhat but I still needed to take a lot of time off of work when my daughter became sick since my own parents worked and were not available for daycare.
When my daughter was 6 months old she got RSV and I had to give her treatments every four hours day and night. My family was out of town so I was on my own. I almost collapsed from lack of rest when they returned five days later. At one point my boss made comments about my attendance impacting my job performance. It is frightening to think how close I came to losing my job.
My daughter had no health issues from birth. Children in daycare settings get sick often and if you are a single parent YOU are the one who will have to take care of your child. I thought my employer would be understanding too since it was an elementary school but you might be surprised how quickly that support evaporates if you start missing work to take care of a sick child.
I understand that you want a child. Please have a plan in place for all of the outcomes that aren't perfect. Make sure you have researched and know what care will cost. When I looked online I found that Washington DC has the highest rates in the country. What will you do if your child is special needs and there isn't daycare available that meets your child's needs? I know people that this has happened to. Even if your child is perfectly healthy he or she will get sick and need care. Do you know where to find back up care? Is your position the type where you can leave at a moment's notice in the middle of the day when you get a call from your daycare that your child is sick and needs to be picked up now?
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It's under mustachian community then under journals and it's called baby and pregnancy chat. People there are generally very supportive. What you're finding to be rude on the main form is just the way we operate here. It's not meant to be rude it's meant to be eye opening and to realize that debt is an emergency and you have to fix it. We don't sugarcoat.
I appreciate it - thank you!
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This jumped out at me:
These are my numbers: NET - 80K/ year, $35K in retirement, emergency $3000. Having a baby on my own + my insurance with Kaiser is about $2K for the fertility clinic and $260 for delivery.
Do you have any other savings outside retirement funds, or is $3000 all you have? After childbirth, assuming all goes well, that will be down to $740. That isn't even a month of living expenses.
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This jumped out at me:
These are my numbers: NET - 80K/ year, $35K in retirement, emergency $3000. Having a baby on my own + my insurance with Kaiser is about $2K for the fertility clinic and $260 for delivery.
Do you have any other savings outside retirement funds, or is $3000 all you have? After childbirth, assuming all goes well, that will be down to $740. That isn't even a month of living expenses.
I plan on starting IUI in Nov/Dec - that's 8 months at $3K savings/ month and if all goes well, I'd have another 10 months of saving at the same rate, until birth. I am not pregnant now!
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My wife and I have a newborn, multiples more income, and less student loan debt at a lower rate. I think you might be wildly underestimating the work involved in caring for a baby. We also have the advantage of Mrs.UpwardlyMobile’s parents being our neighbors. Pay off the debt, a kid is probably not in your cards. You’d basically be choosing to be poorer, stressed and struggling.
How do you have such huge debt at 40?
You *just* had a baby -- how dare you (a man!!!) tell me 'a kid is probably not in your cards'???? What kind a monster must you be to intentionally come on this board and tell a stranger that ... perhaps while holding your newborn? ... Actually, don't answer that! Hold your baby and your wife tightly! Some of us aren't so lucky!
That "man!!!" is telling you from his own personal experience that a newborn is a lot of hard work. I don't see anything monstrous in his post. He isn't wishing childlessness on you.
Thanks. As you saw, I wasn’t wishing childlessness on someone. Moreover, gender has nothing to do with the topic as you keenly pointed out.
Raising a child is a ton of work. I felt like a monster leaving Mrs upwardlymobile for a business trip for a single night. There is tons to do. Even with her mother helping during the day during maternity leave, it’s busy stuff. Babies need and require full time attention. It’s unbelievably exhausting. A few nights with little to no sleep will literally make you a zombie at work.
I won’t go into the medical issues relating to pregnancies after 40. There are smarter folks than I that know far more than I. Suffice to say they exist and it’s a serious consideration.
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My wife and I have a newborn, multiples more income, and less student loan debt at a lower rate. I think you might be wildly underestimating the work involved in caring for a baby. We also have the advantage of Mrs.UpwardlyMobile’s parents being our neighbors. Pay off the debt, a kid is probably not in your cards. You’d basically be choosing to be poorer, stressed and struggling.
How do you have such huge debt at 40?
You *just* had a baby -- how dare you (a man!!!) tell me 'a kid is probably not in your cards'???? What kind a monster must you be to intentionally come on this board and tell a stranger that ... perhaps while holding your newborn? ... Actually, don't answer that! Hold your baby and your wife tightly! Some of us aren't so lucky!
That "man!!!" is telling you from his own personal experience that a newborn is a lot of hard work. I don't see anything monstrous in his post. He isn't wishing childlessness on you.
Thanks. As you saw, I wasn’t wishing childlessness on someone. Moreover, gender has nothing to do with the topic as you keenly pointed out.
Raising a child is a ton of work. I felt like a monster leaving Mrs upwardlymobile for a business trip for a single night. There is tons to do. Even with her mother helping during the day during maternity leave, it’s busy stuff. Babies need and require full time attention. It’s unbelievably exhausting. A few nights with little to no sleep will literally make you a zombie at work.
I won’t go into the medical issues relating to pregnancies after 40. There are smarter folks than I that know far more than I. Suffice to say they exist and it’s a serious consideration.
Please, let's stop. Yes, it's hard but is it impossible????? You and your wife did it, didn't you? Did you not think it was gonna be hard??? Do you regret having a child now??? I truly feel like some people have ganged up on me to dissuade me from doing this. Gender has a lot to do with this - you aren't a woman to have to right to even offer your opinion because you don't know how it feels to want a child. Kinda like with voting on women't rights. Have a chat with your wife and see if she'd understand. For some money isn't everything. I wish you all the best to you and your family!
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Men have no idea what it is like to carry or birth a child, but they absolutely can know what it's like to want a child or to parent one.
I hope you have an easy time getting pregnant, staying pregnant, delivering the baby, and then raising the child. But it doesn't always go that way. My first pregnancy basically destroyed my life as I knew it. I don't regret the daughter I have, but she really complicated things while I was working to recover. You can't go back. Life will never be what it was. I'd be a much happier person if I never decided to have kids. Of course, I couldn't have known that, and all my life I've only ever wanted 2 (living, healthy) kids. Which probably won't happen.
Just make sure you plan for the unexpected that people are telling you about. It's not unexpected for things to not turn out perfectly at your age, no testing can tell you that you will have a healthy child. It is emotionally and physically draining to go through assistive reproduction. How many times will you try? What about losses? Are you prepared? Pregnancy is hard, and adverse outcomes harder as you get older. Can you do 3 months of bed rest? 5 months? Fetal outcomes are worse for older mom's. Can you deal with months in the NICU? A lifetime of special needs?
Or post a case study of your finances, which this site is good at, and ignore all the threads you've started about life advice. It's clear your mind is made up.
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I am really shocked by the number of posters that seem to be telling a stranger that she shouldn't try to have a child. Yeah, it's very hard, even when you have a healthy baby with two dedicated, present parents. But the OP is no stranger to hardship. Millions have babies while single, working, and/or not affluent. It might not be ideal, but of course it can be done, and it is often done well.
Having children is flipping hard but the best things frequently are. There will likely be loss, illness, pain, and suffering at some point. That is life. Good luck.
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At 40, you're pretty much on the brink of the fertility abyss. If you're going to have a baby, it will have to be now. You may find it very difficult even now. If this is something you will always regret not doing, please do it!
You'll be in a difficult financial position. Millions of people are when they have a baby. That can be dealt with. Don't let anyone talk you out of it with a solely financial argument.
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When people post on these MMM forums with their case studies and they state their debt to income ratios, food costs, etc. etc. and list their family members, no one says "have you considered giving your children up for adoption so that you could cut on food/housing costs?". No one says that. But essentially it's the same thing as people telling you not to have a baby if that's one of your life goals/THE life goal.
People will request advice on these forums who are in DIRE financial situations and they will mention that they also have a newborn at home... people will say "congrats on the baby" and then dish out financial advice that does not otherwise relate to the existence or non-existence of that baby.
Those are not comparable situations.
If that newborn has already entered the picture, that's it, there is no alternative. Ethically, the only path forward is helping parent and child achieve the best possible life possible, and that almost always entails keeping them together. Needlessly hurting the parent about past decisions does nothing. But in OP's case, that child isn't conceived, and that proposed conception will come at significant expense on the financial and interpersonal fronts.
Single motherhood is fraught with poor outcomes, but that's on a macro level. OP has a good income and has a few good things going for her, and a few bad things. She may buck the trend and raise a fantastic child who will go on to lead a deeply meaningful life. Or it may end in disaster, or anything in between. We don't know.
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OP, like others here, I was perhaps misled by your title and first post in the thread. It sounds like perhaps you were a "parachute kid" who had to make it alone in the US without much support from immediate family on the ground. That maybe you became a support for your family at a young age without much guidance, and have done really really well for yourself after a couple decades of hard work. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not trying to negate anything you've said here, just sharing my experience. Have you spent much time helping people raise their children when you were growing up, say babysitting for siblings, neighbors' kids etc? Because for me, the experience of taking care of babies and young children from age 10 upwards left me forever ambivalent about having kids of my own, and my 30s were essentially a war between urges from my biological clock and the knowledge that many things I enjoyed in life - primarily my independence and the work that shaped my identity - would be impossible.
In the end, I remained child-free for many reasons (though I work a kid-friendly job and a theoretical kid could have a wonderful private education from ages 2-18 with the ed foundation I work for) and though I sometimes wonder what life would've been like with one, it was the right decision for me. I'm much healthier physically, financially, and emotionally than I'd have been if I'd had a child (though everyone's experience is of course different!)
There are also times when I'm working with a group of kids on a huge scary (for them) public art project and I feel this intense love for all of them that is a version of and in a way satisfies that maternal instinct. I'm able to do more and give more to the society I live in because that energy isn't devoted to one person. So what I'm trying to say is, even if on the off chance things don't go as hoped, there are many ways you can still be a mentor, a nurturer. There are many ways to love children, even if you don't live with one.
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My wife and I have a newborn, multiples more income, and less student loan debt at a lower rate. I think you might be wildly underestimating the work involved in caring for a baby. We also have the advantage of Mrs.UpwardlyMobile’s parents being our neighbors. Pay off the debt, a kid is probably not in your cards. You’d basically be choosing to be poorer, stressed and struggling.
How do you have such huge debt at 40?
You *just* had a baby -- how dare you (a man!!!) tell me 'a kid is probably not in your cards'???? What kind a monster must you be to intentionally come on this board and tell a stranger that ... perhaps while holding your newborn? ... Actually, don't answer that! Hold your baby and your wife tightly! Some of us aren't so lucky!
That "man!!!" is telling you from his own personal experience that a newborn is a lot of hard work. I don't see anything monstrous in his post. He isn't wishing childlessness on you.
Thanks. As you saw, I wasn’t wishing childlessness on someone. Moreover, gender has nothing to do with the topic as you keenly pointed out.
Raising a child is a ton of work. I felt like a monster leaving Mrs upwardlymobile for a business trip for a single night. There is tons to do. Even with her mother helping during the day during maternity leave, it’s busy stuff. Babies need and require full time attention. It’s unbelievably exhausting. A few nights with little to no sleep will literally make you a zombie at work.
I won’t go into the medical issues relating to pregnancies after 40. There are smarter folks than I that know far more than I. Suffice to say they exist and it’s a serious consideration.
Please, let's stop. Yes, it's hard but is it impossible????? You and your wife did it, didn't you? Did you not think it was gonna be hard??? Do you regret having a child now??? I truly feel like some people have ganged up on me to dissuade me from doing this. Gender has a lot to do with this - you aren't a woman to have to right to even offer your opinion because you don't know how it feels to want a child. Kinda like with voting on women't rights. Have a chat with your wife and see if she'd understand. For some money isn't everything. I wish you all the best to you and your family!
Bottom Line, which never really occurs to everyone.
You only get/have ONE life. So do what YOU want Eva :). Take everyone's "advice" as just that, ADVICE.
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I think having or not having a child is a deeply personal decision. No internet stranger should tell a woman what to do.
On the money side, I suggest trying to stabilize your finances asap. Refinance those loans. Build up a 6 month emergency fund BEFORE you get pregnant. You never know what sort of pregnancy you have, you might need to take time off work if you are on bedrest etc, etc. That money will also come in handy after the child is born. It is highly probable that childcare will eat up a large proportion of your income, so not much will be left (talking from experience). There were 2 years when I was working for 30$ a day (plus retirement contributions).It is not the fancy prams and cute little outfits which are expensive, it is the childcare. And I don't even want to talk about the quality of those childcare places. The first 2 years are hard. Babies are hard. Toddlers are harder. My career still hasn't recovered from the zombie years (my kids didnt sleep until they were 4), the first 2 years they were always sick because they picked up all those germs in daycare and generously shared them with me, so I had to take a lot of sick days...I have a very family friendly job, but still. It will take an other round of bosses until I can rebuild my professional reputation. No matter how good I am, they still remember those years when I was sleep deprived, useless and unreliable.
So, start paying off the debt and piling up cash agressively. You will be better off outlining your finances in detail here than asking for baby advice, people will have some actionable plans of optimising spending, saving money, investing etc. That will be more helpful in your current situation than the single mother horror stories.
And the last bit: when calculating costs, always work with the more expensive version, not the optimistic lowest possible version when running possible scenarios. Like, you will need the expensive baby making version (if not, great), your mum won't be able to help much with childcare, so you will have to fund it all yourself, there are no spots available in the cheap childcare, so you need to book the bub in the more expensive one etc, etc. (I am paying 30 dollars per child more a day for a better quality afterschool care, because the cheap place was simply so horrible that I couldn't leave them there).
I wish people would stop saying that children are not expensive. Maybe not if you are a stay at home mom who comes from a large family with lots of hand me down baby gear, breastfeeds, uses cloth nappies (hand washed in rainwater heated by solar power), feeds the bub organic vegetables from own garden and of course homeschools. But for the rest of us, they don't come cheap. (I am extremely bitter about childcare fees, you can tell)
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Don't let anyone talk you out of it with a solely financial argument.
I'm in complete agreement here. If she wants a kid, she has to do it now. I think people are using the financial argument because of the title of her post, which is kid or student loans. People are also trying to tell her that being a single mom is harder than she appears to think it is, and she needs to be resume for that.
Honestly at 40, if she wants a kid, she needs to start today. Her chance of a biological child gets slimmer every month. And if she plans to go to adoption I'd that fails, there are places she is near to aging out of.
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I agree that it you want a baby more than nearly everything else, you should have a baby.
But "wanting it more than nearly everything else" means you want it more than you want to not live in a mediocre-at-best studio apartment, and than you want to not eat beans and rice 5 days a week, and to not drive a 2008 Toyota Corolla with a dented door and broken radio, and to not eat any meals out pretty much ever, and to not exchange gifts with family for holidays and birthdays, and to not have cable, and just about everything else.
So, do you want a baby that badly? If so, great, go for it. But then be the responsible adult and give up all those other things to. If you can't then clearly you want those things more than you want a baby, which is fine, too. You can responsibly have whatever you want. Just not everything you want. So pick what it is you want, and then readjust everything else to align with that priority.
It is grossly irresponsible to choose the kid but then not do pretty much *EVERYTHING* within your power to get your finances in order. And "in order" means not only addressing the debt, but also addressing future spending, and building up a substantial emergency fund, all on top of being able to pay for childcare and other expenses, and additional time off for days she is sick (if you don't get PTO) and other possible work implications of having a child that often needs care and attention during the workday. That doesn't mean it is grossly irresponsible for you to have a child. It is only so if you aren't willing to make the other sacrifices in order to get what you want and still have your financial house in order. From the sounds of it, it is going to take some extreme sacrifices for a few years, all while you want to be adjusting to new motherhood (at time during which you are likely to often want to throw money at problems when you are sick, tired, unappreciated, exhausted, and stressed). For you, just ordering in or going through the drive through, or not shopping thrift because it is faster than a trip to Target, or wanting to pay a housekeeper for even just one time because you are exhausted and can't deal, or wanting to hire a lawn service, or whatever, are not going to be in the cards. Unless you want to be irresponsible, have your child grow up in financial uncertainty, and never get ahead.
So, if you want to do it, do it. But know what it will cost (and I don't mean just the numbers), carefully assess that, and be honest with yourself when deciding if you are truly willing to make those adjustments.
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Thank you everyone! I'm on that path with savings and correcting other things as much and as quickly as possible. Yes, I'm 40 and I have been in perfect shape and health my entire life - in the gym all the time, eating only healthy stuff, always watching my lifestyle. So, I look and feel 30 - inside and out and better than many 25-year olds. I get a lot of dates but I'm picky because I worked hard for everything in my life. Could I just have any man that comes into my life, actually YES - I have many of those options but for what? -Just to have a mediocre sperm donor that's lukewarm about how he feels about me, isn't super healthy, mediocre looks and finances, and also looking for a second mother - NO THANKS! I have friends that have those kinds of men in their life - no thanks! This may sound selfish, yet again but here it is: - I look great and I will say life is easier as a beautiful person. I want a gorgeous child and I get to choose that. With money, I can do enough on my own without a deadbeat man-child around. I don't have the time and energy to raise a 40+ year old man that never wants to grow up. ... anyway... thanks everyone for your input. The experience on this forum has been quite eye-opening and terrifying as to how evil some people can be. Oh and I know many women that got started in their 40's - my mom had me late as well, so no health concerns here, as others are pointing out relentlessly.
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Now that is the voice of humble, emotionally mature woman who knows what she wants.
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Eva_Eva.
The best to you as you begin this journey.
Please, going forward, reconsider posting threads that detail your personal life and asking advice.
Not everyone is going to agree with you. Take what might help and of course, dismiss the rest.
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[Okay ... we're just going to lock this thread before it gets even nastier.]