Happiness in HCOL vs LCOL

[pineland]

Wife and I spend all of our free time hiking mountains. It's why we moved from FL to the PNW a couple years ago. We love it out here. Our first baby is due this summer and we have been looking at putting down roots by buying a home. We are still early stages of pursuing FI but it is a high priority for us. Average SFH here is $670k (so maybe upper MCOL?). We take home $115k after taxes. We can't afford to buy here anymore without severely undercutting our FIRE goals. We did put an offer in on a house a couple weeks ago but then rescinded it the next day as our guts were telling us not to spend that much. We are looking into potentially relocating to a LCOL area, somewhere back east. NC has mountains but it's not the same. Could go back to FL.

We know the right financial move is to leave, but there is a significant amount of happiness we get from being out here. I think long term we will be glad we didn't buy a $670k house, but right now it doesn't seem like an easy decision. I think we'd get greater happiness by working a decade less in a more affordable area vs working a decade more but being in the mountains. But I don't really know. I believe the idea of "build the life you want, then save for it" is right, but in this situation it requires making a heck of a lot more money in order to save for a life out west and still FIRE.

Anyone make a similar move? Is it irrational to still be considering buying out west knowing it will kill our FIRE goal? I think we're looking to be brought down to Earth.

[bacchi]

Can you move elsewhere in the PNW? For example, Port Angeles has less going on than Seattle or Portland but the houses are a lot cheaper.

[LightStache]

If buying a house is going to kill your FIRE goals, that means buying a house is a bad financial decision, so just don't do it.

I've invested in two individual properties and made money. Now I'm buying into syndications. So I'm relatively pro real estate because I think it can help grow wealth.

But I'm renting my primary residence right now. If you're looking at properties today and figuring out that there's no way they can help you build wealth then you're right to walk away.

But that doesn't mean going to a place you don't want to love. It just means continuing to rent in the place you love despite whatever family/society has taught you about homeownership.

[Dreamer40]

Are your FIRE goals (like the timing) more aggressive than they really need to be? I would personally buy the house in the community that you know you love. But I’m biased since I’m also in the PNW. I’ve lived several other places that I did not enjoy nearly as much (both higher and lower cost of living areas) and it definitely affected my happiness. I guess the only way to know is to visit any other areas you’re considering (especially during the off season) and see what you can learn about them.

I spent more than I thought I could afford on my first house (not here in the PNW) and then sold it for a lovely profit. It’s so hard to predict the future, but you really might not regret buying a house for $670K. If you love the house and love the area, then it’s exactly the kind of thing worth spending money on.

[goat_music_generator]

Well... what does "kill" your FIRE goals mean? How much longer would you have to work, compared to your next best alternative location, and how do you feel about your job/s? And how much happier are you here vs. in that next best alternative location?

You have to figure out what the options look like concretely to decide whether the tradeoff is worth it to you.

[Askel]

NC has mountains but it's not the same.

Man, us outdoor recreation types can be the absolute worst at tiny details exaggeration syndrome.

I get it, I'm really into biking and skiing. I live where I live because I have access to stuff like this.  But still, some of the absolute greatest days I've ever had on a bike have been in the middle of a bunch of cornfields in Iowa. 

For years I always wanted to move out west where the mountains were bigger, the days more epic, and the instagram followers flocked about you like geese.  And once I had the cash and skills to get out there for the occasional visit I found it was..... 


...kinda neat, I guess? Sure have some cool pictures, but the experiences weren't markedly better than the fun I had here in my weird little corner of the midwest.   

So take a look at what you enjoy about those hikes and see if it's the actual mountain or something else. 

But just a heads up, all the weird little LCOL places are significantly less L these days with work from home and a bonkers real estate market.  3 years ago I would have scoffed at the very idea of a $670k house when I could stop by the local real estate office and take my pick of perfectly livable houses for less than $50k.  Now there are homes in my neighborhood selling in the half million dollar range where I paid $100k just a few years ago.   

[dcheesi]

NC has mountains but it's not the same. Could go back to FL.

Are you looking for scenery, or for recreation? The Appalachians might not be as big and majestic (from ground level) as the Rockies, but places like Roanoke, VA still have tons of mountain activities going on; hiking, mountain biking, etc. Once you're up on the mountain, the lack of snow caps doesn't really matter --except for winter sports, of course, but then you're still going to find more options there than in Florida!

[nessness]

One issue you didn't touch on is whether you could make the same salary in a LCOL area. Would your current jobs allow you to work remotely for the same pay? If not, have you looked at the availability and salary of comparable jobs in other locations?

[Dicey]

Hmmm, owning Real Estate made us FI. Did we do it wrong?

Here's something that happened IRL just for grins. We paid around $925k for our home nine years ago. Based on recent sales, the comps are $1.9M-$2.0M. That doesn't happen in too many places. HCOLA for the win?

Oh, and one of our rentals in a MCOLA is about to turn over. Tenant has been there six years and we have raised the rent from $1750 to $1950 during their tenure. The market has exploded in the past 12 months. We're told we can get "easily" get $3000 for it now, based on current comps. Yowza!

Finally, we have so much in RE, it doesn't really matter what the stock market is up to on a day-to-day basis.

[pineland]

Can you move elsewhere in the PNW? For example, Port Angeles has less going on than Seattle or Portland but the houses are a lot cheaper.

Yes this is definitely another option we are looking into. We are currently in a city that has much higher house prices compared to a lot of cities within the state. Port Angeles is not that inexpensive anymore, but it is certainly cheaper than where we are.

If buying a house is going to kill your FIRE goals, that means buying a house is a bad financial decision, so just don't do it.

I've invested in two individual properties and made money. Now I'm buying into syndications. So I'm relatively pro real estate because I think it can help grow wealth.

But I'm renting my primary residence right now. If you're looking at properties today and figuring out that there's no way they can help you build wealth then you're right to walk away.

But that doesn't mean going to a place you don't want to love. It just means continuing to rent in the place you love despite whatever family/society has taught you about homeownership.

We are currently renting a 1/1 for $1000/mo and actually like the place. With a baby coming, I definitely feel the pressure to want more space. Right now there is no urgency to move, but in a year or two I know we will need the extra space We owned a home in FL and we were happy to offload it in 2019. Long term, I don't think we can rent in the PNW indefinitely due to rent increases.

Are your FIRE goals (like the timing) more aggressive than they really need to be? I would personally buy the house in the community that you know you love. But I’m biased since I’m also in the PNW. I’ve lived several other places that I did not enjoy nearly as much (both higher and lower cost of living areas) and it definitely affected my happiness. I guess the only way to know is to visit any other areas you’re considering (especially during the off season) and see what you can learn about them.

I spent more than I thought I could afford on my first house (not here in the PNW) and then sold it for a lovely profit. It’s so hard to predict the future, but you really might not regret buying a house for $670K. If you love the house and love the area, then it’s exactly the kind of thing worth spending money on.

I wouldn't say our FIRE goals are more aggressive than they need to be. Over the years we've made some questionable decisions when it comes to our finances and now at 34 and 36 years old, our goal is to be done working by 50.

Well... what does "kill" your FIRE goals mean? How much longer would you have to work, compared to your next best alternative location, and how do you feel about your job/s? And how much happier are you here vs. in that next best alternative location?

You have to figure out what the options look like concretely to decide whether the tradeoff is worth it to you.

The numbers I've crunched show that for every additional $150k we spend on a house it will add ~4 years to our working life. So if its a $350k house vs $650k, we're looking at another 8 years.

NC has mountains but it's not the same.

So take a look at what you enjoy about those hikes and see if it's the actual mountain or something else. 

I think the mountains are a big part of it. Well, I suppose it's the adventure of it all really.

NC has mountains but it's not the same. Could go back to FL.

Are you looking for scenery, or for recreation? The Appalachians might not be as big and majestic (from ground level) as the Rockies, but places like Roanoke, VA still have tons of mountain activities going on; hiking, mountain biking, etc. Once you're up on the mountain, the lack of snow caps doesn't really matter --except for winter sports, of course, but then you're still going to find more options there than in Florida!

Looking for the scenery and variety that the Cascades provide. It has what seems like an almost unlimited number of trails and/or mountains to explore. It's the expansiveness of it. I've been backpacking in the Appalachians and definitely enjoyed it. Overall, I think we could make the Appalachians work, and then just vacation out west.

One issue you didn't touch on is whether you could make the same salary in a LCOL area. Would your current jobs allow you to work remotely for the same pay? If not, have you looked at the availability and salary of comparable jobs in other locations?

My current job is remote and I would be able maintain my current salary. Wife currently works in the city, so if we decide to move she will look for a new job wherever we go.

Hmmm, owning Real Estate made us FI. Did we do it wrong?

Here's something that happened IRL just for grins. We paid around $925k for our home nine years ago. Based on recent sales, the comps are $1.9M-$2.0M. That doesn't happen in too many places. HCOLA for the win?

Oh, and one of our rentals in a MCOLA is about to turn over. Tenant has been there six years and we have raised the rent from $1750 to $1950 during their tenure. The market has exploded in the past 12 months. We're told we can get "easily" get $3000 for it now, based on current comps. Yowza!

Finally, we have so much in RE, it doesn't really matter what the stock market is up to on a day-to-day basis.

I've thought about this as well. In a perfect world, we would buy a house here for $670k and a decade later it would be $1.3M. Then we could decide to move to a LCOL area, sell the house and live happily ever after. But that's pure speculation isn't it?

[simonsez]

Average SFH here is $670k (so maybe upper MCOL?).

Median SFH sales price for the US in 2021 was 353k with the West region alone having a median sales price of 511k.

https://cdn.nar.realtor/sites/default/files/documents/metro-home-prices-q4-2021-single-family-2022-02-10_1.pdf

Considering only 8 out of the ~200 metro areas have median sale prices above 670k, I'd say 670k is definitely HCOL!

For reference, here are the 8 for you to avoid if looking for typical housing in an area that is less expensive:
Anaheim-Santa Ana-Irvine - 1099k
Boulder - 783k
Los Angeles-Long Beach-Glendale - 801k
San Diego-Carlsbad - 830k
San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward - 1320k
San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara - 1640k
Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue - 699k
Urban Honolulu - 996k

[tyrannostache]

I don't think anyone can truly answer this question for you. Would you be as happy in FL or NC as you are in the PNW? Hard to say.

There are the bare numbers. Financially, it might more sense to leave, as long as you can make similar salaries elsewhere (can you? There might be a salary benefit to staying in place).

You say you need "more space." How much more space are you talking? Would a 2/1 condo work for you? Maybe you don't need a full SFH with a yard. You can still live small.


My spouse and I went through the same calculations over the last few years. I live in the Mountain West in a town that has seen really bonkers home price growth over the last few years. I still bought a house here last year, because I love it. From my front door, I can bike for 15 minutes and set my feet on a hiking trail into a massive designated wilderness area. Our family can take spur-of-the-moment trips to camp in some of the most spectacular mountains and forests in the US. My kids are learning to cross-country ski and dig snow caves. That's priceless to me. So we are continuing our progress toward FIRE in a slightly slower way than we could if we spent less on housing.

I could have bought a decent house in my LCOL midwestern hometown for about 200K less than what I spent here. I still can't see myself moving back there. My parents retired from great careers in that town. They would love to test the waters in other places, but they feel like they have been priced out of bigger cities or other parts of the country that they enjoy. They do enjoy their small town and their life there, but they have a little regret that they don't feel as mobile as they would like to be due to housing costs. Most of this is perception--it's hard to justify spending $2000/month on rent to be in a new place when you are used to spending $700/month on a mortgage. (So instead, they are spending a whole bunch of money doing unnecessary upgrades to their home... but their strange financial choices are a story for another day.)

[pineland]

I don't think anyone can truly answer this question for you. Would you be as happy in FL or NC as you are in the PNW? Hard to say.

There are the bare numbers. Financially, it might more sense to leave, as long as you can make similar salaries elsewhere (can you? There might be a salary benefit to staying in place).

You say you need "more space." How much more space are you talking? Would a 2/1 condo work for you? Maybe you don't need a full SFH with a yard. You can still live small.

My spouse and I went through the same calculations over the last few years. I live in the Mountain West in a town that has seen really bonkers home price growth over the last few years. I still bought a house here last year, because I love it. From my front door, I can bike for 15 minutes and set my feet on a hiking trail into a massive designated wilderness area. Our family can take spur-of-the-moment trips to camp in some of the most spectacular mountains and forests in the US. My kids are learning to cross-country ski and dig snow caves. That's priceless to me. So we are continuing our progress toward FIRE in a slightly slower way than we could if we spent less on housing.

I could have bought a decent house in my LCOL midwestern hometown for about 200K less than what I spent here. I still can't see myself moving back there. My parents retired from great careers in that town. They would love to test the waters in other places, but they feel like they have been priced out of bigger cities or other parts of the country that they enjoy. They do enjoy their small town and their life there, but they have a little regret that they don't feel as mobile as they would like to be due to housing costs. Most of this is perception--it's hard to justify spending $2000/month on rent to be in a new place when you are used to spending $700/month on a mortgage. (So instead, they are spending a whole bunch of money doing unnecessary upgrades to their home... but their strange financial choices are a story for another day.)

We don't need a whole lot of space. We're looking for at least a 3bd/1.5ba with 1200sqft since I work from home. I suppose we could do something like a 2/1 condo but much prefer a SFH.

It seems you chose the mountain west and don't regret it. Like you, I'd want my kid(s) to have access to all the mountains/wilderness have to offer. There does seem to be another path here and that is to stay somewhere around the PNW that is less expensive so I'll be exploring that further.

[windytrail]

Just rent. I really doubt that rent increases will be so high as to price people with $100k+ salaries out of the market completely. In the small chance that rents rise that much (without your salary also rising to compensate), then you will need to reconsider your options. But there is certainly no need to preemptively up and move away from a place you love. Instead, rent and enjoy the awesome and special environment you are in.

My partner and I are renting here in the Bay Area and I currently save 60-75% of my salary due to the high paying jobs here. We are looking at relocating to the PNW for climate reasons (getting too dry in CA) and for a change of scenery, dependent upon job opportunities of course. It's beautiful up there!

[ender]

Hmmm, owning Real Estate made us FI. Did we do it wrong?

Here's something that happened IRL just for grins. We paid around $925k for our home nine years ago. Based on recent sales, the comps are $1.9M-$2.0M. That doesn't happen in too many places. HCOLA for the win?

Worth noting owning real estate didn't make you wealthy here. Leverage did - assuming you had a mortgage.

Because $925k 9 years ago would be worth more than $2M if you had invested it :-)

[Mr. Green]

Longview, WA. We drove through there last year on the way to Olympia and I was surprised at the baller park they had (Lake Sacajawea Park) and home prices were the most reasonable I'd seen on the entire west coast. Right off I-5 so easy access to Portland, Columbia River Gorge, the Olympic Peninsula, etc. You should definitely check it out if you have the ability to choose where you live in the PNW. I just looked on realtor.com and ~1,000 sq. ft. is running 300-400k depending on updates, proximity to park, etc.

[tyrannostache]

We don't need a whole lot of space. We're looking for at least a 3bd/1.5ba with 1200sqft since I work from home. I suppose we could do something like a 2/1 condo but much prefer a SFH.

It seems you chose the mountain west and don't regret it. Like you, I'd want my kid(s) to have access to all the mountains/wilderness have to offer. There does seem to be another path here and that is to stay somewhere around the PNW that is less expensive so I'll be exploring that further.

To be honest, I should that note I am about to sell a house in a different mountain town. It has almost doubled in value since I bought it for a primary residence several years ago. Having that house on the docket to sell made the pill of higher home prices in my new town much easier to swallow (we had to move for my spouse's work).

[Abe]

Wife and I spend all of our free time hiking mountains. It's why we moved from FL to the PNW a couple years ago. We love it out here. Our first baby is due this summer and we have been looking at putting down roots by buying a home. We are still early stages of pursuing FI but it is a high priority for us. Average SFH here is $670k (so maybe upper MCOL?). We take home $115k after taxes. We can't afford to buy here anymore without severely undercutting our FIRE goals. We did put an offer in on a house a couple weeks ago but then rescinded it the next day as our guts were telling us not to spend that much. We are looking into potentially relocating to a LCOL area, somewhere back east. NC has mountains but it's not the same. Could go back to FL.

We know the right financial move is to leave, but there is a significant amount of happiness we get from being out here. I think long term we will be glad we didn't buy a $670k house, but right now it doesn't seem like an easy decision. I think we'd get greater happiness by working a decade less in a more affordable area vs working a decade more but being in the mountains. But I don't really know. I believe the idea of "build the life you want, then save for it" is right, but in this situation it requires making a heck of a lot more money in order to save for a life out west and still FIRE.

Anyone make a similar move? Is it irrational to still be considering buying out west knowing it will kill our FIRE goal? I think we're looking to be brought down to Earth.

Asheville, NC is reasonable place to look at. Depending on your ideas of a good life, you could live inside or outside town and be happy with raising a kid there. The surrounding counties are rotting from the inside out, but Asheville is doing well.

[Dicey]

Hmmm, owning Real Estate made us FI. Did we do it wrong?

Here's something that happened IRL just for grins. We paid around $925k for our home nine years ago. Based on recent sales, the comps are $1.9M-$2.0M. That doesn't happen in too many places. HCOLA for the win?

Worth noting owning real estate didn't make you wealthy here. Leverage did - assuming you had a mortgage.

Because $925k 9 years ago would be worth more than $2M if you had invested it :-)

Nope. We sold two leveraged and highly appreciated properties and paid cash for this house.

While you're not wrong, you're forgetting that we would have had to pay Bay Area rents for nine years. I think you're also assuming a 100% equity portfolio allocation, which isn't necessarily advised.

Don't worry, all of our rentals were purchased with lovely 30 year mortgages that we do not intend to pay off early. We love the magic of leverage and compound interest.

[Thoughtful Mule]

Hey Pineland, we are in an almost identical situation.

Moved from FL to CO in 2020 at age 36/37. Sold our house there and are currently renting. We freaking love it here, but I feel your housing pain. Our expenses are way up and housing alone is pushing back our full blown FIRE date. I work from home and my wife can get a teaching job just about anywhere. We have a 1 year old and a 4 year old. Our thoughts have turned to school and having a good place for them to grow up. Like you, we are weighing the extra time working (and other negatives of owning) vs all the benefits.

Here are some things that come to mind:

• Calculations for how long it will take to FIRE are going to be wrong with a greater than 5 year horizon. There are just too many variables. 
  
  
• The rent vs. buy decision making process has been beaten to death because its complex (not purely financial).
  
  
• In general, buying something you can "afford" with leverage and holding for a long time is going to build more net worth than renting an identical house at market rate. I've found it helpful to play around with rent vs. buy calculators such as Michael Bluejay's, fatfire woman's, and the New York Times.
  
  
• If you can rent a smaller place (such as your 1 BR) for a while longer and save before purchasing, that would be a mustachian thing to do.
  
  
• We are looking hard for a place to "house hack", with a space that is turnkey, or that we can convert into a rental. Another mustachian maneuver.
[/li]

I wish you the best of luck and am sure that everything will work out great. I'd be happy to exchange ideas any time.

[roomtempmayo]

I think the mountains are a big part of it. Well, I suppose it's the adventure of it all really.

If you like vast mountains, have you considered southeast Alaska?  Juneau, Ketchikan, and Sitka aren't that cold.  And the landscape is boundless.

[Thoughtful Mule]

Alaska would be awesome, mega adventurous.

I also want to add this to my post above. We built most of our stache in a LCOL area before moving to a higher cost location. Our core expenses are covered by our investments today. Buying a nice home would require working a few extra years to offset the additional negative cash flow of a mortgage, but it would be our singular goal. If we had to build from the ground up, it would be a much tougher decision.

That said, many people get to FI quickly in all types of markets.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Longview, WA. We drove through there last year on the way to Olympia and I was surprised at the baller park they had (Lake Sacajawea Park) and home prices were the most reasonable I'd seen on the entire west coast. Right off I-5 so easy access to Portland, Columbia River Gorge, the Olympic Peninsula, etc. You should definitely check it out if you have the ability to choose where you live in the PNW. I just looked on realtor.com and ~1,000 sq. ft. is running 300-400k depending on updates, proximity to park, etc.

Very familiar with this area, so if anyone is considering, message me & I can share pros & cons. There are plenty of each.

[pineland]

Just rent. I really doubt that rent increases will be so high as to price people with $100k+ salaries out of the market completely. In the small chance that rents rise that much (without your salary also rising to compensate), then you will need to reconsider your options. But there is certainly no need to preemptively up and move away from a place you love. Instead, rent and enjoy the awesome and special environment you are in.

My partner and I are renting here in the Bay Area and I currently save 60-75% of my salary due to the high paying jobs here. We are looking at relocating to the PNW for climate reasons (getting too dry in CA) and for a change of scenery, dependent upon job opportunities of course. It's beautiful up there!

In the short-medium term I think this is most likely what we will do as we are able to have a high savings rate because of low rent. But long term we do want our own house which may be more a lifestyle decision rather than financial.

Longview, WA. We drove through there last year on the way to Olympia and I was surprised at the baller park they had (Lake Sacajawea Park) and home prices were the most reasonable I'd seen on the entire west coast. Right off I-5 so easy access to Portland, Columbia River Gorge, the Olympic Peninsula, etc. You should definitely check it out if you have the ability to choose where you live in the PNW. I just looked on realtor.com and ~1,000 sq. ft. is running 300-400k depending on updates, proximity to park, etc.

Will look into this area. A town near this is also on our radar.

Asheville, NC is reasonable place to look at. Depending on your ideas of a good life, you could live inside or outside town and be happy with raising a kid there. The surrounding counties are rotting from the inside out, but Asheville is doing well.

We've been looking in and around Asheville. If we do move back east this will more than likely be where we end up.

Hey Pineland, we are in an almost identical situation.

Moved from FL to CO in 2020 at age 36/37. Sold our house there and are currently renting. We freaking love it here, but I feel your housing pain. Our expenses are way up and housing alone is pushing back our full blown FIRE date. I work from home and my wife can get a teaching job just about anywhere. We have a 1 year old and a 4 year old. Our thoughts have turned to school and having a good place for them to grow up. Like you, we are weighing the extra time working (and other negatives of owning) vs all the benefits.

Here are some things that come to mind:

• Calculations for how long it will take to FIRE are going to be wrong with a greater than 5 year horizon. There are just too many variables. 
  
  
• The rent vs. buy decision making process has been beaten to death because its complex (not purely financial).
  
  
• In general, buying something you can "afford" with leverage and holding for a long time is going to build more net worth than renting an identical house at market rate. I've found it helpful to play around with rent vs. buy calculators such as Michael Bluejay's, fatfire woman's, and the New York Times.
  
  
• If you can rent a smaller place (such as your 1 BR) for a while longer and save before purchasing, that would be a mustachian thing to do.
  
  
• We are looking hard for a place to "house hack", with a space that is turnkey, or that we can convert into a rental. Another mustachian maneuver.
[/li]

I appreciate your insights. I do like the idea of staying in our 1br rental for as long as possible since it really does allow us to get ahead financially.

If you like vast mountains, have you considered southeast Alaska?  Juneau, Ketchikan, and Sitka aren't that cold.  And the landscape is boundless.

I'm all for moving to Alaska. The wife....not so much. Too isolated for her. Although I do question the accessibility of the mountains in a place like Ketchikan compared to the mainland. Seems like you are limited in where you can go (as in you probably need a boat in order to explore some mountain range other than the one in town).

[englishteacheralex]

We are on Oahu--Urban Honolulu. Doesn't get much more HCOL than here. I moved out here in 2003 after college on a whim to accept a teaching job and then never left. Met my husband out here, had two kids and now we're pretty much locked in here.

I've thought about moving many, many times over the past 20 years or so. Housing is depressingly expensive here. Financially, moving out here as a teacher was not a great decision. But both of us love our jobs, love the outdoor stuff to do here, and we have a strong, supportive community of friends, so moving would be extremely difficult. We're not super close to our families on the mainland, and we definitely don't want to live in the areas our families live.

We made it work by buying a 3 bedroom 2 bath 850 sf condo in 2015 for $364k (at the time, HOA fees were $500/month--they are now $758/month) and toughing it out for six years while paying down the mortgage and getting lucky with appreciation. Since we love being outside and can do outdoor activities all year, it was do-able.

We bought a 1400 sf townhouse in January and are in the process of selling the original condo. A few key take-aways--my husband's income went up a lot since we've been married. Our combined income was ~$110k/year when we bought the condo. It is now ~$180k/year. We got lucky with timing, but at the time $364k seemed insanely expensive for that condo. So: a starter home in a VHCOL area was a work-around for us. YMMV.

Our priority is not early retirement, since we both enjoy our jobs. We save 15% of our annual income for retirement. We've been saving since we were in our twenties, so we're on track to be fine for an ordinary retirement age, probably early 60's.

Living in a VHCOL has been a priority for us, and we understand this about our choices. We have judged the trade-offs involved with moving to a lower COL area to not be worth it. Having to start over with jobs and friends would suck. And we love the beach year round.

[affordablehousing]

Yeah, CA buy and hold is where it's at. All the incentives line up for just sticking it out- Prop 13, cheap/ super competitive mortgages, plentiful renter demand. I've never met anyone who hasn't done well just owning real estate for a long time. In my experience there are two ways to win- patience or smarts, and two ways to lose- impatience and being dumb. Figure out what you're easier strength is and your weakness is and set up your RE portfolio accordingly.

[Fomerly known as something]

Yeah, CA buy and hold is where it's at. All the incentives line up for just sticking it out- Prop 13, cheap/ super competitive mortgages, plentiful renter demand. I've never met anyone who hasn't done well just owning real estate for a long time. In my experience there are two ways to win- patience or smarts, and two ways to lose- impatience and being dumb. Figure out what you're easier strength is and your weakness is and set up your RE portfolio accordingly.

Yesterday I was listening to Clark Howard and he was reading an article about how CA has a low tax burden on middle income earners.  He was surprised.  I thought prop 13.

[Thoughtful Mule]

In my experience there are two ways to win- patience or smarts, and two ways to lose- impatience and being dumb. Figure out what you're easier strength is and your weakness is and set up your RE portfolio accordingly.

This is great.

[bryan995]

Why not stay put and focus on increasing income in the PNW?

Did you both get new jobs (and new skills) last year to “re-up” compensation? An employer is not going to magically start paying 20-30% more due to inflation, most folks need to force it by switching jobs.

[FINate]

Possibly the least exciting recommendation since it's neither "follow your dreams" nor "move to a LCOL area and suffer": Do nothing. Keep renting and working. Save like mad while enjoying where you live. Take reasonable steps to increase your credit score. Bide your time and be ready to pounce on a good opportunity if/when it arises and you have more clarity on your priorities. E.g. be ready for a recession, dip in housing prices, reasonably priced dream property, etc.

Unlike companies that issue stock, housing does not have unlimited upside. A house does not produce new things, nor does it express the potential of human capital -- it's primary value is the utility of the land and a depreciating structure as a place to live. The PNW and Intermountain West experienced a huge influx of urbanites from large metros that spiked demand and prices. IMO, the bulk of the pandemic reshuffle is behind us. Most people will stay, some will return from whence they came. While I don't expect a large drop in housing prices (really though, who knows?) I do think these areas will build more housing and mortgage rates will continue to rise, both put downward pressure on prices so time is on your side.

One other thought: Individual stories about success in the RE market should be taken with a big grain of salt since there's a vary large component of Survivorship Bias similar to what happens with actively managed funds. Folks that entered the certain coastal CA markets in the 1980s-1990s (and then pulled up the drawbridge behind them as they enacted no-growth policies) did extremely well, and their stories become the stuff of legends. Same for those who bought in 2012-2013 [/me raises hand]. This largely ignores those that bought in markets that didn't do so well, or in 2007-2008. Those who did well with RE willingly share their success stories, those that didn't... not such much. For most, a long term primary residence is an okay purchase but nothing spectacular. A fair common story I hear goes something like "we bought our house for $500k and it's now worth $700k!" Wow, ok, sounds pretty good but then I learn they've owned it for 10 years, which is like a 3.4% annualized return, higher if leveraged, but still not that impressive. I like owning a home and I think there are many benefits, I'm just skeptical of how much we Americans fetishize real estate.

[ChpBstrd]

I'm not hearing a lot of discussion about the elephant in the room, which is the baby on the way. Expect to have a LOT less recreational time for the next 4 years or so, which means the rationale for living in an expensive place near mountain recreation is seriously reduced. Your recreation time for the next several years will be based on use of your friends/families for babysitting. Believe me when I tell you this: your proximity to such willing caretakers will determine how much you actually get out and do.

Second, if you both plan to continue working, now is the time to start shopping / reserving a spot for daycare. You may find that the cost of daycare is outrageous in your HCOL area, and that should be a factor in your decision. In my LCOL area, we paid about $750/mo for the fanciest Montessori preschool in town. You'll be lucky to pay that per week, because the cost of housing flows down to everything else. The daycare workers must pay their own rent, and charge accordingly.

If the numbers don't work, nothing else does either. DW and I increased our net worth by about $100k per year while having a baby/toddler, maxing out our 401k's and Roths while simultaneously paying for childcare and a mortgage, but that's the magic of LCOL areas. In your situation, my concern would be that you're (a) paying a huge premium, to (b) be close to amenities you cannot get much enjoyment out of anyway, causing (c) your FIRE date to evaporate into the very distant future, causing (d) you to not be retired 6-16 years from now when it would be ideal to take the little one on adventures. There is an alternative to this trajectory in which you can be homeowners AND retired 10 years from now, plus or minus.

One last note: New parents tend to believe they "need more space" and upsize their housing prior to the arrival of their first baby. For at least the first year, more space is irrelevant. Separate bedrooms don't mean you aren't waking up in the middle of the night when your little one does, and it doesn't provide more privacy. It just means you have more rooms to clean. If you can fit a crib into your bedroom, and use existing furniture or bathroom counters as the base for your "changing table" then you'll actually have a shorter "supply line", lower costs, and less hassle. If you need a dedicated workspace, there may be no alternative than to go with a 2BR unless you get really creative.

[AlanStache]

I will raise my hand and add that I lost ~1/3 of my purchase price over 10 years on a primary residences sale value.  For my current place the original owners made 2.5-3% per year for ~50 years until I bought.  You have to live somewhere but real estate is not a guaranteed market beater. 

[pineland]

Possibly the least exciting recommendation since it's neither "follow your dreams" nor "move to a LCOL area and suffer": Do nothing. Keep renting and working. Save like mad while enjoying where you live.

This resonates the most with us right now. We have a high savings rate and still get to enjoy the mountains.

I'm not hearing a lot of discussion about the elephant in the room, which is the baby on the way. Expect to have a LOT less recreational time for the next 4 years or so, which means the rationale for living in an expensive place near mountain recreation is seriously reduced. Your recreation time for the next several years will be based on use of your friends/families for babysitting. Believe me when I tell you this: your proximity to such willing caretakers will determine how much you actually get out and do.

Second, if you both plan to continue working, now is the time to start shopping / reserving a spot for daycare. You may find that the cost of daycare is outrageous in your HCOL area, and that should be a factor in your decision. In my LCOL area, we paid about $750/mo for the fanciest Montessori preschool in town. You'll be lucky to pay that per week, because the cost of housing flows down to everything else. The daycare workers must pay their own rent, and charge accordingly.

If the numbers don't work, nothing else does either. DW and I increased our net worth by about $100k per year while having a baby/toddler, maxing out our 401k's and Roths while simultaneously paying for childcare and a mortgage, but that's the magic of LCOL areas. In your situation, my concern would be that you're (a) paying a huge premium, to (b) be close to amenities you cannot get much enjoyment out of anyway, causing (c) your FIRE date to evaporate into the very distant future, causing (d) you to not be retired 6-16 years from now when it would be ideal to take the little one on adventures. There is an alternative to this trajectory in which you can be homeowners AND retired 10 years from now, plus or minus.

One last note: New parents tend to believe they "need more space" and upsize their housing prior to the arrival of their first baby. For at least the first year, more space is irrelevant. Separate bedrooms don't mean you aren't waking up in the middle of the night when your little one does, and it doesn't provide more privacy. It just means you have more rooms to clean. If you can fit a crib into your bedroom, and use existing furniture or bathroom counters as the base for your "changing table" then you'll actually have a shorter "supply line", lower costs, and less hassle. If you need a dedicated workspace, there may be no alternative than to go with a 2BR unless you get really creative.

This is incredibly insightful so I appreciate the reply! It gives us more things to think about and consider. We just extended our lease for another 6 months at the same $1k/mo and have agreed not to buy a house here anymore. We both plan to continue working after baby comes. All of our family is actually on the east coast so can't rely on family out here (this is another reason to move back east). We are hoping to not need daycare but that is dependent on the ability for both of us to work from home (which may or may not be the case). I'm with ya regarding space and I don't foresee our current place being too small this first year.

Anyways, I think we were FOMOing for a while with wanting to buy a house out here. Our plan now is to continue renting cheap while saving a lot and buy a reasonably priced house later this year or most likely next year. The location is still up in the air but I think as the year progresses we will be able to narrow it down more. Once baby comes and wife figures out her job situation we will have a more detailed perspective of our priorities regarding where we want to live long term.

[Mr. Green]

I'm not hearing a lot of discussion about the elephant in the room, which is the baby on the way. Expect to have a LOT less recreational time for the next 4 years or so, which means the rationale for living in an expensive place near mountain recreation is seriously reduced. Your recreation time for the next several years will be based on use of your friends/families for babysitting. Believe me when I tell you this: your proximity to such willing caretakers will determine how much you actually get out and do.

This isn't necessarily the case. We have friends in Salt Lake City who have a 3 and 1 year old and they take them everywhere. Hiking, National Parks, you name it. They're always going somewhere. If the kids are along for the ride they get used to it. Our infant is going to see plenty of car time to ensure that's not a problem and we'll be hiking with her in a front pack just as soon as she can hold her head up. It all just depends on how much you really want to get out but it's the best way to ensure the kids will want to come along as they become able to ambulate themselves.

[sonofsven]

A few times now you've said "out here", so you don't really consider the PNW as home (yet?) To those of us who live here, it is not out here, but here.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong?
There is a strong pull to be near family when you have kids. Get ready for a lot of pressure from the grandparents.
Being near family can be a great help when caring for young kids, too, and can save you a lot of money over childcare.

[Dicey]

I will raise my hand and add that I lost ~1/3 of my purchase price over 10 years on a primary residences sale value.  For my current place the original owners made 2.5-3% per year for ~50 years until I bought.  You have to live somewhere but real estate is not a guaranteed market beater.

Wut? Which ten year period are you referring to? They made money during the Great Recession and you're losing it in this insanely hot market? Something's not passing the sniff test here.

[Dicey]

I'm not hearing a lot of discussion about the elephant in the room, which is the baby on the way. Expect to have a LOT less recreational time for the next 4 years or so, which means the rationale for living in an expensive place near mountain recreation is seriously reduced. Your recreation time for the next several years will be based on use of your friends/families for babysitting. Believe me when I tell you this: your proximity to such willing caretakers will determine how much you actually get out and do.

This isn't necessarily the case. We have friends in Salt Lake City who have a 3 and 1 year old and they take them everywhere. Hiking, National Parks, you name it. They're always going somewhere. If the kids are along for the ride they get used to it. Our infant is going to see plenty of car time to ensure that's not a problem and we'll be hiking with her in a front pack just as soon as she can hold her head up. It all just depends on how much you really want to get out but it's the best way to ensure the kids will want to come along as they become able to ambulate themselves.

Lol, I was thinking the same thing. Our grandkids live in CO. The five-year-old skis so fast and fearlessly her expert skier parents can't keep up with her. They traveled internationally with her in tow before Covid hit. They met us in Moab after the Meetup last year. The four of them, including the six-month-old, tent camped while we luxuriated in our fancy-pants RV. They hike, fish, swim, ski, ride bikes, travel, and more with both kids in tow.

[AlanStache]

I will raise my hand and add that I lost ~1/3 of my purchase price over 10 years on a primary residences sale value.  For my current place the original owners made 2.5-3% per year for ~50 years until I bought.  You have to live somewhere but real estate is not a guaranteed market beater.

Wut? Which ten year period are you referring to? They made money during the Great Recession and you're losing it in this insanely hot market? Something's not passing the sniff test here.

Bought in '08 for ~170, sold in '19 or '20 for ~112.  South east Va is an odd real estate market because of lots of military and govt jobs we are some what insulated so in '08 after the national housing crash we were still a bit high (I did not really appreciate this).  Few others in the building bought higher in the years before but then within a year or two the value was near where I sold it and did not move much for the duration.  Other markets may behave differently but a primary residence is not guaranteed to go up in value even over 10 years. 

I grew up in NorCal so I know these prices are tiny compared to those out there, showed an old friend of mine the big old Victorian in good condition in that neighborhood that was selling for about what he paid for a condo. 

Edit: checking today the zillow estimate has not really changed since I sold. 

[LightStache]

I will raise my hand and add that I lost ~1/3 of my purchase price over 10 years on a primary residences sale value.  For my current place the original owners made 2.5-3% per year for ~50 years until I bought.  You have to live somewhere but real estate is not a guaranteed market beater.

Wut? Which ten year period are you referring to? They made money during the Great Recession and you're losing it in this insanely hot market? Something's not passing the sniff test here.

Bought in '08 for ~170, sold in '19 or '20 for ~112.  South east Va is an odd real estate market because of lots of military and govt jobs we are some what insulated so in '08 after the national housing crash we were still a bit high (I did not really appreciate this).  Few others in the building bought higher in the years before but then within a year or two the value was near where I sold it and did not move much for the duration.  Other markets may behave differently but a primary residence is not guaranteed to go up in value even over 10 years. 

I grew up in NorCal so I know these prices are tiny compared to those out there, showed an old friend of mine the big old Victorian in good condition in that neighborhood that was selling for about what he paid for a condo.

Appreciate the tale. There's so much survivorship bias with issues like these because those who lose don't like to share. But it's so important to keep a balanced perspective.

[pineland]

A few times now you've said "out here", so you don't really consider the PNW as home (yet?) To those of us who live here, it is not out here, but here.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong?
There is a strong pull to be near family when you have kids. Get ready for a lot of pressure from the grandparents.
Being near family can be a great help when caring for young kids, too, and can save you a lot of money over childcare.

We do consider the PNW home so I think it's just the terminology I'm using that's confusing. We will wait to see how our priorities change when baby comes. I do anticipate somewhat of a pull to be closer to family.

[legalstache]

I'm not hearing a lot of discussion about the elephant in the room, which is the baby on the way. Expect to have a LOT less recreational time for the next 4 years or so, which means the rationale for living in an expensive place near mountain recreation is seriously reduced. Your recreation time for the next several years will be based on use of your friends/families for babysitting. Believe me when I tell you this: your proximity to such willing caretakers will determine how much you actually get out and do.

Big +1 to this. We live in the PNW and before we had our two kids we were hiking and doing outdoorsy stuff all the time. Not so much anymore. Sure, there are lots of stories out there about people doing big trips, camping, etc. with little kids, and of course that stuff does happen, but in my experience it is much, much more difficult. Trust me when I say 99% of our friends with kids would agree. It's just way harder when you're juggling nap schedules, kids who can walk but not do an 8 mile hike, shorter attention spans, etc. IMO, the best window for continuing outdoors stuff at your previous level is in the few months after your kid is born, but that's also when you're the most sleep-deprived.

Am I a little bitter that we don't still do all the same outdoors stuff we used to do? Sure, but I recognize this is a phase of our lives that is fun in many different ways, and we get outside with our kids plenty in other, closer to home ways.

Also, having family or other caregiving nearby will open up some opportunities for you and your wife too. Our family is all in the PNW and the longer hikes we've done since kids have been when the grandparents provided babysitting. Frankly, we would look long and hard at a lower COL location if family was not nearby, despite how much we enjoy where we live in general.

[ChpBstrd]

I'm not hearing a lot of discussion about the elephant in the room, which is the baby on the way. Expect to have a LOT less recreational time for the next 4 years or so, which means the rationale for living in an expensive place near mountain recreation is seriously reduced. Your recreation time for the next several years will be based on use of your friends/families for babysitting. Believe me when I tell you this: your proximity to such willing caretakers will determine how much you actually get out and do.

Big +1 to this. We live in the PNW and before we had our two kids we were hiking and doing outdoorsy stuff all the time. Not so much anymore. Sure, there are lots of stories out there about people doing big trips, camping, etc. with little kids, and of course that stuff does happen, but in my experience it is much, much more difficult. Trust me when I say 99% of our friends with kids would agree. It's just way harder when you're juggling nap schedules, kids who can walk but not do an 8 mile hike, shorter attention spans, etc. IMO, the best window for continuing outdoors stuff at your previous level is in the few months after your kid is born, but that's also when you're the most sleep-deprived.

Am I a little bitter that we don't still do all the same outdoors stuff we used to do? Sure, but I recognize this is a phase of our lives that is fun in many different ways, and we get outside with our kids plenty in other, closer to home ways.

Also, having family or other caregiving nearby will open up some opportunities for you and your wife too. Our family is all in the PNW and the longer hikes we've done since kids have been when the grandparents provided babysitting. Frankly, we would look long and hard at a lower COL location if family was not nearby, despite how much we enjoy where we live in general.

Brings back memories of the time our 4y/o had an all-nighter meltdown because the tent wasn't perfectly level and nothing worked so we packed up and drove home from our campsite at 2 a.m. Kid fell asleep in the back of the car almost immediately.

[legalstache]

Brings back memories of the time our 4y/o had an all-nighter meltdown because the tent wasn't perfectly level and nothing worked so we packed up and drove home from our campsite at 2 a.m. Kid fell asleep in the back of the car almost immediately.

Haha, that sounds about right. Our friends who were brave enough to travel internationally with their kids ended up pushing them around Spain in a stroller at 2 a.m. because they were too jet lagged to sleep.

That said, OP I don't want to discourage you too much from staying out here, and you should consider the long view as well. My parents moved out here with 3 little ones and left their family on the East Coast in part because my dad loved the outdoor opportunities. Years later, he's still getting outside all the time and he raised a bunch of kids who love the outdoors. We all hated hiking until about college though, haha.

I guess that's just to say, if hiking in the mountains is your main reason for being here, those opportunities will still exist but you may not be able to maximize them for a while (some people seem to with kids though, so YMMV). But I wouldn't want you and your wife feeling trapped in an expensive house far away from family with a little one and not able to enjoy the outdoors fully if that's your primary reason for being here. I think you're smart to keep renting with such a big life change coming up to give yourselves time to see how that shakes things up.

[roomtempmayo]

Based on my experience living in the rural northeast, I'll emphasize @FINate and @AlanStache 's points that real estate speculation is just speculation.  Regions go in and out of fashion.  Even local areas get more or less desirable based on trends you can't control.  There's no natural law that Americans will keep moving south and west to a handful of metros.  There is nothing at all keeping Portland from becoming the next Cleveland.

@pineland , I'd only buy a house if the justifications for it are fully independent of it accruing value.  If you buy a house today and after 20 years you end up taking a small real-dollar loss, would you be glad you bought?  If so, I'd do it.  If not, I'd think about making different housing choices to make that answer "yes."

There's no real evidence that you can depend on longterm housing appreciation, anywhere.  People love to trot out anecdotes, but Robert Shiller won a Nobel Prize in part for showing that those anecdotes are cherrypicking. 

[bearman]

I don't often comment, but I wrestled for about 5 years with that question and wanted to share a few things. I also lived in the PNW for 10+ years, but was from the East coast originally, and moved back 2 years ago. The PNW mountains kept me there for a long time, but kids change everything, proximity to family (if that's a goal) goes up in importance as everyone ages, and having the right size house at the right price is a tremendous boost to stability and toward FI. There is great happiness to be found in mountains across the whole country. It is different, but future you will be different too. Hiking will be much slower with kids. Close range more important. If FI is important, you really want the house price to be 2x-3x your income, and you shouldn't count on appreciation - it's a nice bonus, but not the plan. I live now in the Appalachian foothills, and bought 35 acres with a pond on a mountain, and am having a house built this year, for a total quite a bit less than the house prices you're looking at. All that to say, it's a big decision, take your time, but, yes, happiness in LCOL is very possible.

[Expatriate]

We are hoping to not need daycare but that is dependent on the ability for both of us to work from home (which may or may not be the case).

Just to manage expectations: most babies require near-constant attention when they’re awake. You might have 10 minutes ‘down time’ here and there, but that’s about it.

YMMV, but don’t expect both of you can work simultaneously with a baby af home. You’ll likely need to work partially in ‘shifts’ without day care.

The other aspect is full-day care for the baby itself. Bit of a taboo to say so, we found it mentally numbing. Let’s say it’s not for everyone - both of us go crazy having to care for a baby, day in day out. Being in a similar boat, i.e. without family close by, we ended up occasionally contracting day care on days off so we could unwind in the mountains.

It drastically improved our joy on days we do we care for her. Plus the professional day care we bring here to provides a very stimulating environment. Can’t believe she suffers in her development because we bring her there (rather the opposite, actually).

[NorthernIkigai]

We are hoping to not need daycare but that is dependent on the ability for both of us to work from home (which may or may not be the case).

Just to manage expectations: most babies require near-constant attention when they’re awake. You might have 10 minutes ‘down time’ here and there, but that’s about it.

YMMV, but don’t expect both of you can work simultaneously with a baby af home. You’ll likely need to work partially in ‘shifts’ without day care.

The other aspect is full-day care for the baby itself. Bit of a taboo to say so, we found it mentally numbing. Let’s say it’s not for everyone - both of us go crazy having to care for a baby, day in day out. Being in a similar boat, i.e. without family close by, we ended up occasionally contracting day care on days off so we could unwind in the mountains.

It drastically improved our joy on days we do we care for her. Plus the professional day care we bring here to provides a very stimulating environment. Can’t believe she suffers in her development because we bring her there (rather the opposite, actually).

Yeah, this. Plus probably one or both of you not sleeping properly for months. I’d be surprised if there are employers out there who would allow working from home with an infant that doesn’t have a dedicated person taking care of it, anyway. I remember reading pre-pandemic that this was not usually allowed by US employers, and with good reason. Maybe things have changed since then, though.

Having a baby is often freaking exhausting. Adding two full time jobs and working from home (try focusing or having online meetings…) in a small space sounds … not good. I’m all for living in small spaces and even working from home while doing that, but a baby or toddler just doesn’t fit into that space at the same time.

[lutorm]

We are hoping to not need daycare but that is dependent on the ability for both of us to work from home (which may or may not be the case).

Just to manage expectations: most babies require near-constant attention when they’re awake. You might have 10 minutes ‘down time’ here and there, but that’s about it.

YMMV, but don’t expect both of you can work simultaneously with a baby af home. You’ll likely need to work partially in ‘shifts’ without day care.

Yeah, this. Plus probably one or both of you not sleeping properly for months. I’d be surprised if there are employers out there who would allow working from home with an infant that doesn’t have a dedicated person taking care of it, anyway. I remember reading pre-pandemic that this was not usually allowed by US employers, and with good reason. Maybe things have changed since then, though.

Thirded. Just put this out of your minds right now (unless maybe if your "work from home" actually means getting paid for doing nothing, but even in that case the stress of doing a piss-poor job of either the job or the baby would make it not worth it for me.

I didn't see anyone comment on this:

Average SFH here is $670k (so maybe upper MCOL?). We take home $115k after taxes. We can't afford to buy here anymore without severely undercutting our FIRE goals.

Nothing says you have to buy the average house.

If you're willing to get something smaller than average and older than average, in a less-than ideal location, you can probably find something for much less than that. (Averages are typically skewed high since the average is pulled up by the few very expensive houses.)

[FINate]

If you're willing to get something smaller than average and older than average, in a less-than ideal location, you can probably find something for much less than that. (Averages are typically skewed high since the average is pulled up by the few very expensive houses.)

That's why you buy the median home instead of the average :)

It's also why the wedding industrial complex loves to talk about how much the average wedding costs (vs. the more realistic median) because it encourages people to spend more.

[FLBiker]

This has been an interesting thread to read, as we were also FL based and recently relocated.  We also love hiking and other outdoor activities.  We considered the PNW, but decided to move to Nova Scotia instead.  We're in a small town about an hour outside of Halifax and we absolutely love it here.  When we moved (July 2020), housing was reasonable (we bought our 1700sqft house w/ garage and basement for ~$200,000 US) but things have definitely gone a bit nuts in the last couple of years.  There is a 1200 sqft semi-detached on a busy street that's currently for sale for $260,000 US -- we'll see.

I work from home, and DW was fortunate to find her ideal job about 20 minutes away.  I don't think this move will dramatically impact our FIRE goals (probably 2-3 years away).  Taxes are higher, but we don't need to worry about post-retirement healthcare, so it's kind of a wash.  The bigger impact to our FIRE timeline is that both of us want more of a cushion than we wanted previously, due to our perception of things being unstable right now (both geopolitically and economically).  If it weren't for that, we're basically there.

And as has been said, kids do change the game somewhat.  Our daughter definitely required lots of attention as an infant (and beyond).  DW stayed home with her the first 2.5 years, then we did pre-school.  When COVID hit and her pre-school closed, we had to work in shifts.  Now that she's 7, it's better.  And she loves camping, but getting her to sleep in a tent when she was really little was quite hard.  Kids definitely vary, though -- some are easy to put to sleep anywhere and don't want to be held all the time.  At least, I've heard that there are kids like that. :)

Kids also change your priorities.  We moved because we felt that our area in Florida would be a lousy place to grow up, go to school, etc.  We did intentionally NOT move to the most expensive places (like BC) but the move wasn't primarily motivated by finances.  The great thing about having some degree of FI is being able to make choices based on things other than money.