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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Mustache_In_Training on June 11, 2015, 07:42:24 AM

Title: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Mustache_In_Training on June 11, 2015, 07:42:24 AM
TL;DR: My wife and I had a will made by a lawyer. Lawyer estimated an amount. Got bill in mail for 2.5 times more than estimated amount. Now I'm pissed. Is there anything I can do?

Longer version:

We met with a lawyer for an hour to discuss our estate planning documents. Later that night he sent us an email which summarized our discussion of what we wanted in our will. He gave us an estimate of $700 to $1,000. Based on what I found online, that is a reasonable price for a will, so we gave the okay to proceed. The following day, I was looking through the email more thoroughly and noticed he had a name spelled wrong and it would probably be a good idea to add any children we may have or adopt to the documents. He said he'll make the changes.

A week goes by, they tell us they have the documents ready to sign. We go in, sign all the documents and are done. I ask when will we receive the bill. They said they bill at the end of each month. Fast forward 2 months...(we sent several emails inquiring as to the whereabouts of this bill after the first month lapsed) Finally get the bill in the mail. I expect to see an amount around $1,000, however was shocked to read $2,500! What the hell!?

They had a summary of charges as follows:


Rate for both people was $295/hour. Total $2,507.50

I don't know if I should just bend over and take this? Do I have a choice? I would have liked some warning if they knew we had far surpassed the estimated amount by 2.5 times! Had they provided me an estimate of $2,500, I would have laughed and found someone else. I feel like a victim of switch and bait. I restrained myself from sending an email last night, I wanted to cool off and gather feedback from smart people (yourselves).
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: YTProphet on June 11, 2015, 07:49:13 AM
I'm a lawyer. That middle set of 2 hr revisions is b.s. as is charging you .5 hours to prepare a cover letter. In fact, lawyers shouldn't be charging you for non-legal work like that. That junior associate is clearly padding the bill. I'd be pissed. I think $2000 is a fair price.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: shotgunwilly on June 11, 2015, 08:01:07 AM
I wouldn't pay it. Negotiate a lower price closer to the quote you received.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Mustache_In_Training on June 11, 2015, 08:18:00 AM
I'm a lawyer. That middle set of 2 hr revisions is b.s. as is charging you .5 hours to prepare a cover letter. In fact, lawyers shouldn't be charging you for non-legal work like that. That junior associate is clearly padding the bill. I'd be pissed. I think $2000 is a fair price.

How should I tell him that eloquently? I drafted an email last night, but I hesitate to send it. Here is what I planned to send, feel free to critique:

Dear Mr. Lawyer,

We received the bill (Invoice No. XXX) in the mail today for the estate planning documents. We were both shocked to see such a large amount owed. In our previous correspondence, you estimated an amount between $750 and $1,000. The amount billed was 2.5 times greater than the maximum estimated amount at $2,507.50.
 
I have to assume the amount billed is a mistake. If not, why were we not notified that the original estimate was no longer valid and we were going to far surpass that amount? I feel that our estate planning documents are routine in nature and should not have required $1,507.50 over and above what you originally quoted.

We will pay the amount we originally agreed upon, a maximum of $1,000. Had you provided an estimate of $2,500 we would have gone elsewhere, as that is outrageous for estate planning documents. We were referred to you by _person_ and felt comfortable with you to prepare our important documents. Our trust has been violated and we feel cheated by this bait and switch tactic of estimating one amount and then billing in excess of 2.5 times that amount.

Respectfully,

Mustache_In_Training


Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: snuggler on June 11, 2015, 08:20:56 AM
Definitely raise this, and specifically mention that the cost is over 3x what he quoted you. Did you sign an agreement with him? If so, it might talk about an estimated budget or what will happen when the cost exceeds the estimate. If it does, I'd raise this with him as well.

Lawyers are heavily dependent on their reputations, so they should be open to negotiating this with you. And if they don't, consider giving fair warning to other potential customers via Yelp and Avvo.

I'd call him instead of writing this email, and try to avoid the bait-and-switch language initially. He may be very open to reducing the amount, and may not even know the bill went out this way. Every firm operates differently, and every attorney in a firm may not know what the bill looks like before it goes out to the client.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: YTProphet on June 11, 2015, 08:29:24 AM
I'm a lawyer. That middle set of 2 hr revisions is b.s. as is charging you .5 hours to prepare a cover letter. In fact, lawyers shouldn't be charging you for non-legal work like that. That junior associate is clearly padding the bill. I'd be pissed. I think $2000 is a fair price.

How should I tell him that eloquently? I drafted an email last night, but I hesitate to send it. Here is what I planned to send, feel free to critique:


It all depends on what the revisions were. Some revisions can be very involved and equate to entirely redrafting documents. Did you just ask him to swap a named beneficiary and correct a spelling error or did you completely rework the entire mechanics of the estate? Sometimes clients are very high maintenance or indecisive and that can cause a lot of extra work. Were you that type? What did you ask to be changed in the document between the initial consultation and the end? Would those changes take 2 hours of work?
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: CommonCents on June 11, 2015, 08:33:19 AM
I would strike the last paragraph of your letter.  You can always go for the hard approach, but you can't back off and start nicer again.

Agree that the cover letter should not have been done by the associate but rather a secretary.  (BTW, it's common to have an associate do the work different from the lawyer you met, who usually is a higher rate.  It's just odd they are the same rate.)  Based on the bill rate, I agree about $2k would be more reasonable, which makes me wonder what happened here to be off from the estimate - if usually a lower billed associate does the work but didn't in this case.

And yes, can you be more specific about your revisions?  Looking at the two drafts can you see what changed between them?  A rework or adding a line?
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: thurston howell iv on June 11, 2015, 08:53:03 AM
I would chat with the Lawyer. Obviously, it's an error (giving him the benefit of the doubt) and you're giving him notice so that he can correct it. Be nice.

If he balks, a mention of a Bar Complaint, will usually have an attorney's attention.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Midwest on June 11, 2015, 08:58:49 AM
I'm a lawyer. That middle set of 2 hr revisions is b.s. as is charging you .5 hours to prepare a cover letter. In fact, lawyers shouldn't be charging you for non-legal work like that. That junior associate is clearly padding the bill. I'd be pissed. I think $2000 is a fair price.

How should I tell him that eloquently? I drafted an email last night, but I hesitate to send it. Here is what I planned to send, feel free to critique:

Dear Mr. Lawyer,

We received the bill (Invoice No. XXX) in the mail today for the estate planning documents. We were both shocked to see such a large amount owed. In our previous correspondence, you estimated an amount between $750 and $1,000. The amount billed was 2.5 times greater than the maximum estimated amount at $2,507.50.
 
I have to assume the amount billed is a mistake. If not, why were we not notified that the original estimate was no longer valid and we were going to far surpass that amount? I feel that our estate planning documents are routine in nature and should not have required $1,507.50 over and above what you originally quoted.

We will pay the amount we originally agreed upon, a maximum of $1,000. Had you provided an estimate of $2,500 we would have gone elsewhere, as that is outrageous for estate planning documents. We were referred to you by _person_ and felt comfortable with you to prepare our important documents. Our trust has been violated and we feel cheated by this bait and switch tactic of estimating one amount and then billing in excess of 2.5 times that amount.

Respectfully,

Mustache_In_Training

Having been the recipient of the occasional bill complaint (all professionals get them), I'd take out the last 2 paragraphs and attach the correspondence where he quoted you $1000.  I'd add a polite non-accusatory paragraph offering that you are surprised at the increase over the bid without communication and request he explain. 

If I were him one of two things would happen depending on the circumstances a) I would knock the bill down to $1000 an apologize for the error or b) I would explain the original quote was $1000 but as we discussed.....and communicated.....the scope changed.....  I typically have e-mails or engagement to back myself up when the scope changes in order to avoid these issues.  Even if he has the backup, he may still give you a discount to keep you happy.  I'd certainly consider it.  I'd be much more likely to consider it if you started a conversation versus an attack.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Mustache_In_Training on June 11, 2015, 09:02:01 AM
It all depends on what the revisions were. Some revisions can be very involved and equate to entirely redrafting documents. Did you just ask him to swap a named beneficiary and correct a spelling error or did you completely rework the entire mechanics of the estate? Sometimes clients are very high maintenance or indecisive and that can cause a lot of extra work. Were you that type? What did you ask to be changed in the document between the initial consultation and the end? Would those changes take 2 hours of work?

I don't consider myself to be high maintenance in any sense of the word. We didn't request anything special, none of "this item goes to billy and this item goes to bob, etc." Simply "beneficiary gets all our shit." The revision request was to add children we may have (no kids yet) to be our first beneficiary. If no kids, then it would go to niece and nephew. Other than that one change, we noticed a typo on a name. That's it.

I don't have the drafts in front of me to compare, but I can't imagine adding an additional beneficiary required extensive rework of the entire document. I don't recall signing any upfront agreement, as most of the communication was done through email. He phrased it like, "by replying to this email you agree to our (unstated) financial terms".

I appreciate all the feedback so far, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he has no knowledge of how this was billed. We'll give him a call to express our concern.

P.S. The ONLY change/revision we requested was made on 3/12, which then corresponds to the revisions made on 3/13. I have no idea what revisions were made on 3/16, it sounds like the lawyer found mistakes and the other associate corrected them.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Mustache_In_Training on June 11, 2015, 09:11:36 AM
  I'd be much more likely to consider it if you started a conversation versus an attack.

Noted. Thanks, I will be nice. I forget I'm dealing with a professional. I'm used to dealing with customer service, where if you want something fixed you have to be upfront about your demands.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: MrsPete on June 11, 2015, 09:16:28 AM
This is insane. 

Last summer my husband and I had will written up through our credit union -- we did have to wait for the lawyer, who travels from place to place in the state doing this very thing, to make it to our town, but he wrote us each three documents:  A will, a living will, and a power of attorney. 

Did we pay $250 or $300?  Either way, it's a pittance of what you're talking about.  Our experience was much like yours:  Met to discuss what we wanted, he asked quite a few questions that we had to go home and discuss, when we got together again we put together the documents.   
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Midwest on June 11, 2015, 09:17:05 AM
  I'd be much more likely to consider it if you started a conversation versus an attack.

Noted. Thanks, I will be nice. I forget I'm dealing with a professional. I'm used to dealing with customer service, where if you want something fixed you have to be upfront about your demands.

Believe me, it's taken me years to learn that. 
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: mandy_2002 on June 11, 2015, 09:19:45 AM

  • 3/13: Revise documents per Mustache_In_Training comments ___________Some lady I never met________1 hr

Rate for both people was $295/hour. Total $2,507.50


It looks like the only time spent on the revisions was this 1 hour.  To me, that means that even if your scope change significantly impacted the cost, it should only be $295 more than the initial estimate.  If this were me, I would *possibly* accept this as fair, and say that $1295 is my max cost. 
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Bicycle_B on June 11, 2015, 09:30:01 AM
I really like the comments from Midwest and Mandy2002.

I've had legal work done over the last 3 years.  Rates of $295/hour for your top attorney are not crazy.  However, I've heard quotes of $400 for simple wills and have not seen much higher bills.  A friend of mine got hers done for $400.  I can imagine $700 to $1,000 for a couple but agree that the final bill was way too high. 

Also agree about starting gentle.  You can save mentioning a possible bar complaint for later, if you don't get satisfaction on the first and second try.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: geekette on June 11, 2015, 09:32:19 AM
Wow.  Just wow.

My DH and I had wills written up last summer (referral from a MMM member).  He emailed us some questions, we emailed back, he wrote up the wills, met us at Panera, we signed.  $300, including basic Health Care POA. 
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Kerowyn on June 11, 2015, 09:33:25 AM
I would definitely be sure to ask what caused the huge increase from the estimate to the actual bill. Ask for specifics.

Also, just to be very precise:

We received the bill (Invoice No. XXX) in the mail today for the estate planning documents. We were both shocked to see such a large amount owed. In our previous correspondence, you estimated an amount between $750 and $1,000. The amount billed was 2.5 times greater than the maximum estimated amount at $2,507.50.

It's not 2.5 times greater than the amount, it's 2.5 times the amount (or 1.5 times greater than the amount). I wouldn't expect the lawyer to quibble over this when it's clear what you actually mean, but you never know.

If you're going to discuss this over the phone, it may be helpful to take notes and later send an email saying "this is my understanding of our discussion, please let me know if you disagree." That way there's a paper trail in case of a worst case scenario.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: LibrarIan on June 11, 2015, 10:11:14 AM
Wow.  Just wow.

My DH and I had wills written up last summer (referral from a MMM member).  He emailed us some questions, we emailed back, he wrote up the wills, met us at Panera, we signed.  $300, including basic Health Care POA. 

Seconded on the $300. $2k is crazy! My wife and I met with a lawyer in our local area, filled out the necessary forms, signed PoA documents and all that jazz and had our wills witnessed and finalized for $300 even. Cannot believe someone would charge you this much.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: abiteveryday on June 11, 2015, 10:15:22 AM
I paid $250 to have all this done, and I'm in an expensive coastal city.   That is just plain robbery.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: I'm a red panda on June 11, 2015, 11:10:46 AM
That is crazy. I think it is good to remember that when getting an estimate you should also get in writing that you will be notified about changes to the estimate!

I worked with a lawyer after a car accident, and I am so glad I was not billed hourly- because every time he sent correspondence to me that he was going to be sending out, it was riddled with typos and I sent it back to him proofread.   Maybe I should have sent an hourly bill for my time. The cut of my settlement he got, surely he could have done a spelling and grammar check.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Argyle on June 11, 2015, 11:18:31 AM
Also, correcting the typo is on them — you shouldn't have to pay for the time they spent fixing the mistake they shouldn't have made in the first place.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Mustache_In_Training on June 11, 2015, 11:19:30 AM
Update: Email sent. I was polite and only questioned what caused the amount to increase in a sincere manner. Now the ball is in his court, we'll see where he takes it!

P.S. You guys with your <$300 wills are not making me feel any better! :)
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Numbers Man on June 11, 2015, 11:23:29 AM
If a mechanic wanted to charge me 2.5X of the estimate he gave me, I'm pretty sure I would snap.  Just because this guy wears a suit, that doesn't make it any less sleazy.  So he was either incompetent in giving that estimate, or he was duplicitous.

^ Exactly. I had a will done for $150 in 1989 which is still in force. I guess there's been a lot of inflation since 1989.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Midwest on June 11, 2015, 11:23:54 AM
Update: Email sent. I was polite and only questioned what caused the amount to increase in a sincere manner. Now the ball is in his court, we'll see where he takes it!

P.S. You guys with your <$300 wills are not making me feel any better! :)

If it makes you feel better, I don't know how a will of any complexity is getting drafted for $300.  That's an hour and a half at $200 an hour.  Around here (low cost of living area), it's going to be $500 to $1000.

Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: ltt on June 11, 2015, 11:48:58 AM
Sorry, my husband and I very recently had our wills done, POAs for health care, and living will and it was a fraction of what your attorney is charging and, yes, less than $300 that the others have mentioned.  We also had a trust portion included.  Lawyers use templates to really streamline the entire process.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: CommonCents on June 11, 2015, 11:54:08 AM
Update: Email sent. I was polite and only questioned what caused the amount to increase in a sincere manner. Now the ball is in his court, we'll see where he takes it!

P.S. You guys with your <$300 wills are not making me feel any better! :)

If it makes you feel better, I don't know how a will of any complexity is getting drafted for $300.  That's an hour and a half at $200 an hour.  Around here (low cost of living area), it's going to be $500 to $1000.

+1
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Ricky on June 11, 2015, 12:18:26 PM
This whole process seems very outdated and antiquated in my opinion. Would LegalZoom not accomplish the same thing?

How could it possibly take almost 9 hours to draft a routine document? I don't need to be a lawyer to plug in words. Sounds absolutely ludicrous.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: CommonCents on June 11, 2015, 12:23:04 PM
This whole process seems very outdated and antiquated in my opinion. Would LegalZoom not accomplish the same thing?

How could it possibly take almost 9 hours to draft a routine document? I don't need to be a lawyer to plug in words. Sounds absolutely ludicrous.

A lot of the legal forms online have errors.  Furthermore, state law varies and often people use forms that don't take their state laws into consideration.

That said, if it was routine as the OP asserts, it shouldn't have been 9 hours.  I think the lawyers on here generally agree on that end.  But don't forget to allocate time to explain, ask questions of the OP as to how they want to distribute their assets (and pose questions such as "what if your child predeceases you?  Do you want the money split between your other children or do you want your child's children to inherit it?"), and meet for the signing as well.  It's not all just drafting the document.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Midwest on June 11, 2015, 12:35:02 PM
This whole process seems very outdated and antiquated in my opinion. Would LegalZoom not accomplish the same thing?

How could it possibly take almost 9 hours to draft a routine document? I don't need to be a lawyer to plug in words. Sounds absolutely ludicrous.

I'm not a lawyer either and legal zoom is sometimes appropriate.  However, you are paying professionals for advice in addition to the document.  For example, does your estate plan need a trust?  Minor children?  Other issues you haven't thought of?

I've drafted several legal documents for myself using templates.  Depending on the complexity, I may have an attorney review them.  An estate plan isn't one I would tackle myself and I'm more saavy in this area than most non-attorneys.

For them to meet, advise and draft a fairly simple estate plan, I can't imagine it being done in less than 2 or 3 hours.  The meeting alone will take 30 minutes to an hour if they are asking any sort of questions.  If you are mustachian and have significant assets, they will save you estate much more than they will cost.  Probate and litigation are both fairly expensive.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: thedayisbrave on June 11, 2015, 03:35:42 PM
Wow.  Just wow.

My DH and I had wills written up last summer (referral from a MMM member).  He emailed us some questions, we emailed back, he wrote up the wills, met us at Panera, we signed.  $300, including basic Health Care POA. 

Seconded on the $300. $2k is crazy! My wife and I met with a lawyer in our local area, filled out the necessary forms, signed PoA documents and all that jazz and had our wills witnessed and finalized for $300 even. Cannot believe someone would charge you this much.

Yep... had my will done in 2013 and I believe I paid $500 total.  That included initial consultation, the document, review and editing (after I gave her more info she needed), and final signing.  So not $300, but also not $2,500.  $2,500 is highway robbery.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Mustache_In_Training on June 11, 2015, 04:49:31 PM
Update: Lawyer responded. "Recognizing the estimates, and the amount of time actually expended, I had adjusted the time and billing to $1,500 - I don't know why that was not captured by our billing department in issuing the statement. I am sorry for the shock of receiving the $2500 charge.

Please let me know if the adjustment will be acceptable. Thank you and again, I regret our error." - Lawyer

So, we instantly saved $1,000. Should I press for $1,000 or accept the new improved $1,500 price?
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: dilinger on June 11, 2015, 04:57:12 PM
Better call Saul!

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. :)
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: snuggler on June 11, 2015, 05:13:04 PM
I'd ask for $250 more to be cut, to meet in the middle. It sound like there is more wiggle room, and I think that's fair given the original estimate.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: trailrated on June 11, 2015, 05:32:18 PM
My Uncle called to negotiate down a lawyer bill and was charged for the phone call. Not going to lie, it made me laugh.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Ricky on June 11, 2015, 05:44:21 PM
Sounds like there is still room to negotiate - so I wouldn't a pay penny over $1k. They admitted to their (or team's) mistake and already made an arbitrary counter. You have nothing to lose by insisting on $1k.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: G-dog on June 11, 2015, 06:15:22 PM
I work with attorneys and law firms everyday!
Yes, this is out of line. Remember that lawyers are supposed to hold themselves to a very high ethical bar as per state and federal laws and their Bar Association(s). Reporting them to the bar is a significant threat.
Use the documents you have tracking your agreement/expectations. But a verbal contract is binding as well, but written documents are always better. If your estate or will is particularly complicated, then a higher cost may be justified, but given what some other folks are noting, this seems less likely.
Did you
I s/he needed to consults someone, that should have been cleared with you.
When the bill started moving significantly above the quote, they should have contacted you for authorization.
You needed to pester them for the bill, ridiculous!

You were willing to pay $1000. You can think about sending them a check for $1000 with "paid in full" in the subject line, and/or a cover letter (and copy of the estimate ) stating as per the written estimate here is out oapyment in full for services rendered.

Keep all your documents, they can opt to take you to small claims court or a collection agency - have the documents to counter these moves. Judges do not look kindly upon lawyers that misbehave. Even collection agencies will back off when the proof is on your side (I did not authorize any extra charges beyond the estimate).

Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: briefus on June 11, 2015, 09:14:53 PM
That's outrageous, like others have stated on here, $300 to $500 will pretty much cover anything that's not overly complicated. 95% of what needs to be put in a will isn't complicated, and 99% of people who think they need something complicated, probably don't.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: LDoon on June 11, 2015, 09:39:39 PM
Lawyer's opinion here...

You were correct to send a general email asking about the difference between estimate and initial bill.  $2500 vs. $1000 is too much.  However, the knock-down to $1500 seems reasonable to me.  It's the revisions (adding kids, potential kids) that caused the increase.  You'd be amazed by the invoice difference between a client that provides all information up-front with the client that later wants something different.  It often involves re-writing forms or an additional review, vs. starting with the correct template. 

Yes, a 50% increase over estimate is a lot.  But you asked for more than fixing an address.  You asked for additional clauses, and for the review to confirm that the will read correctly with the additional clauses. 

This is an important document to dictate the allocation of your assets.  It's worth it to have written correctly versus LegalZoom or some other disinterested party. 
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: LDoon on June 11, 2015, 09:47:16 PM
Quote
You were willing to pay $1000. You can think about sending them a check for $1000 with "paid in full" in the subject line, and/or a cover letter (and copy of the estimate ) stating as per the written estimate here is out oapyment in full for services rendered.

Keep all your documents, they can opt to take you to small claims court or a collection agency - have the documents to counter these moves. Judges do not look kindly upon lawyers that misbehave. Even collection agencies will back off when the proof is on your side (I did not authorize any extra charges beyond the estimate).

With respect to this statement, you would easily lose in small claims court.  It's an estimate only, plus you've stated that changes were requested, and thus a high bill is expected. 

The lawyer might take the "paid in full" check, but only b/c it's not worth fighting over $500 (for him or you).  And by the way, if you do fight it in court, you've just lost your lawyer.

Holding a client to estimates works when there is a work history.  Expectations are understood and agreed to.  But a one-off client with a will to be drafted is not even close to that.  You have no leverage, nor expectation of maintaining an estimated bill when adding provisions.



Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: G-dog on June 12, 2015, 05:05:46 AM
Lawyer's opinion here...

You were correct to send a general email asking about the difference between estimate and initial bill.  $2500 vs. $1000 is too much.  However, the knock-down to $1500 seems reasonable to me.  It's the revisions (adding kids, potential kids) that caused the increase.  You'd be amazed by the invoice difference between a client that provides all information up-front with the client that later wants something different.  It often involves re-writing forms or an additional review, vs. starting with the correct template. 

Yes, a 50% increase over estimate is a lot.  But you asked for more than fixing an address.  You asked for additional clauses, and for the review to confirm that the will read correctly with the additional clauses. 

This is an important document to dictate the allocation of your assets.  It's worth it to have written correctly versus LegalZoom or some other disinterested party.

Can you clarify why, when the work started to FAR exceed the estimate, the attorney felt no obligation to contact the client? Or even respond when receiving the changes that this means it will cost more (a LOT more apparently)?
This isn't intended as fuel, but an honest question of what is considered standard practice, best practices, and bad practice. i work with outside counsel in a corporate setting - so we have leverage (and agreements/standing orders/expectations/etc.) if they want to keep our business. But we still find plenty of attempts to overcharge us - but there has been HUGE pushback on law firms to reduce costs, lots of corp clients are way more price sensitive than they used to be, at least in some practice areas.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: markbrynn on June 12, 2015, 06:27:27 AM
Quote
Yes, a 50% increase over estimate is a lot.  But you asked for more than fixing an address.  You asked for additional clauses, and for the review to confirm that the will read correctly with the additional clauses. 

This is an important document to dictate the allocation of your assets.  It's worth it to have written correctly versus LegalZoom or some other disinterested party.

I'm not sure what the language of the estimate was, but I absolutely do not believe that any company should get away with overshooting their estimate without first informing the customer of the impending overrun. This goes for auto-mechanics, electricians, plumbers, waiters, etc.

What if the person had a fixed budget for the service they were purchasing? $1000 (maximum) was within their budget, but $1500 isn't. Can a lawyer (or any service provider) just spend the client's money without warning them?

By the way, this has happened to me once or twice before. I refused to pay (above the estimate) and  the company every time they sent me a letter. Eventually they dropped it. I now make it very clear to everyone that I work with that I want to know if the costs are going over the estimate. Nobody has a problem with doing it (which is why I think the people who pull this trick are dishonest and not making mistakes).
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: TimmyTightWad on June 12, 2015, 06:39:35 AM
What is a good way to find a lawyer to do this for me? Any recommendations for lawyers in the $300 price range in the Philadelphia area?
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Jack on June 12, 2015, 06:52:59 AM
The original estimate was not "$1000." It was "$700-$1000." Because of that, I think it's reasonable to believe that the requested change should move the cost from $700 to $1000, not from $1000 to $1500!

By the way, do routine things like wills really require a fancy senior-lawyer charging $295/hour? I've very rarely needed the services of a lawyer, but I would (perhaps naively) expect a junior associate who recently passed the bar to do a perfectly satisfactory job for a two-digit hourly rate.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Midwest on June 12, 2015, 07:02:24 AM
The original estimate was not "$1000." It was "$700-$1000." Because of that, I think it's reasonable to believe that the requested change should move the cost from $700 to $1000, not from $1000 to $1500!

By the way, do routine things like wills really require a fancy senior-lawyer charging $295/hour? I've very rarely needed the services of a lawyer, but I would (perhaps naively) expect a junior associate who recently passed the bar to do a perfectly satisfactory job for a two-digit hourly rate.

The original estimate didn't involve making client requested changes.  Junior associates aren't 2 digits. 

I'd respond saying although the discount is appreciated, I would appreciate an explanation as to why the original estimate was exceeded.  My suspicion is it will be related to the client requested changes.

Midwest
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Mustache_In_Training on June 12, 2015, 07:17:44 AM
Additional update, wrote him back:

Dear Mr. Lawyer,

Thank you so much for assisting with the billing. Given that the estimate was a range between $750 and $1000, I had assumed there was flexibility to accommodate minor revisions to the document. I understand the revision we asked for may have required work beyond the original scope of the estimate. However, my wife and I had only budgeted $1,000 for these documents. Could we agree to meet in the middle at $1,250? That amount is not well beyond the original estimate and hopefully is satisfactory for you and your firm.

Best Regards,

Mustache_In_Training
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: YTProphet on June 12, 2015, 07:23:00 AM
What is a good way to find a lawyer to do this for me? Any recommendations for lawyers in the $300 price range in the Philadelphia area?
As a lawyer, let me just give a word of caution. You get what you pay for. I think you'd be better served using LegalZoom than paying someone $300.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: DoNorth on June 12, 2015, 07:25:22 AM
that's really bad.  I've had several wills done for my wife and I; we use the military legal office so its free, but in no case, has will preparation for both of us ever exceeded an hour.  We have two children, a few properties, decent assets etc., and did advanced medical directives, burial instructions, powers of attorney etc. each time so not really complex, but no too simple either.  I would contest it and don't let them strong arm you just because they're a law firm.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: WhatIsFrugalAfterAll on June 12, 2015, 07:39:41 AM
Lawyers are always a painful use of money. The flip side is your potentially save your heirs much grief down the road.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on June 12, 2015, 10:04:34 AM
What's the old phrase?  Never get in an argument with a crazy person because after a while, people won't be able to tell which one is the crazy person.  I butchered that terribly, but hopefully you see my point.

Don't wrestle with a pig, you'll both get muddy and the pig will enjoy it?
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Numbers Man on June 12, 2015, 12:08:52 PM
Update: Lawyer responded. "Recognizing the estimates, and the amount of time actually expended, I had adjusted the time and billing to $1,500 - I don't know why that was not captured by our billing department in issuing the statement. I am sorry for the shock of receiving the $2500 charge.

Please let me know if the adjustment will be acceptable. Thank you and again, I regret our error." - Lawyer

So, we instantly saved $1,000. Should I press for $1,000 or accept the new improved $1,500 price?

I love this response from the Lawyer. When everybody fucks up they usually seem to blame the bean counters.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Mustache_In_Training on June 12, 2015, 01:17:34 PM
Thank you for letting us enjoy and learn from the play-by-play.  What's done is done, but here's my 2 cents:

You responded to his weak email with an even weaker one.  You actually had a better shot of meeting in the middle (or doing even better) if you stood firm at $1,000 and making it about principal.  I don't think he's going to drop the price any lower.  You've now validated why the price went up (revisions).  I think you would have been better served acting as though his original estimate 700-1000 already included the cost of potential revisions.  Even if he were to think you were a dummy for thinking that, that would have been a great thing.  You never want to get in an argument with a dumb, principled person who feels strongly about his position and is willing to tell the world about it.  That's a very strong negotiating position. 

What's the old phrase?  Never get in an argument with a crazy person because after a while, people won't be able to tell which one is the crazy person.  I butchered that terribly, but hopefully you see my point.

Please tell us what happens next!  I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Hah! You may be right, but I hope I can still negotiate without appearing to be "a dumb, principled person who feels strongly about his position and is willing to tell the world about it."

I will be sure to let everyone know the next turn of events!
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Roothy on June 12, 2015, 02:19:00 PM
Unless there is more to this story, that lawyer is behaving *really* badly.  First, sending you an outrageously high bill--and then blaming it on his billing department.  Second, charging you extra for "revisions"--one of which is his fault (the misspelling) and the other of which is his incompetence (not listing future children.  It is standard/routine to include  a provision that deals with future children.  He should have asked you about it in the initial consult.)

I agree, though, that you responded with a weak letter to his $1500 offer.  I'm unclear on why what sounds like an incredibly simple will (unless there are things you are not telling us) would be more than the low end estimate of $750.  I'd have countered with that.  And I'm mad at this lawyer on your behalf.  This is what gives lawyers a bad name.

For what it's worth, I disagree with those who are suggesting that writing a simple will is something for which you should pay more than $300 or so to a lawyer.  They, too, are using templates specific to their state, making revisions as appropriate.  But if your case is very simple, with no real revisions from the standard needed, not only don't you need to spend $750--you should probably just go with something like LegalZoom.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Fuzz on June 12, 2015, 03:46:10 PM
Lawyer here. I agree that $2500 for a Will (plus 9 hours of drafting time) is pretty ridiculous for a run of the mill estate plan. Most lawyers use special software to crank that out, which is how most wills are done for $700-$1000.

However, I would pay the $1500 and move on with your life. Yes, it's $500 more than the estimate. But resolving the dispute has value. It's fine to ask for $1000, but if you can't get him to agree to that, then my advice is to pay up and move on. The fee dispute provisions work both ways and you risk a claim against yourself if you stiff him.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: arebelspy on June 14, 2015, 12:42:02 AM
Fun story, thanks for sharing.  I'm interested to see how it finally turns out.  I think he'll take the 1250.

  I'd be much more likely to consider it if you started a conversation versus an attack.

Noted. Thanks, I will be nice. I forget I'm dealing with a professional. I'm used to dealing with customer service, where if you want something fixed you have to be upfront about your demands.

I've found that the same works with customer service--start a conversation, and be friendly.  You don't have to start aggressive.  Yes, you will need to be clear, but that shouldn't mean rude (not that you were saying it does, but just adding the note that whomever you're dealing with, trying to get them on your side is a winning tactic, be them a "professional" or otherwise).
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: LouLou on June 14, 2015, 01:24:57 AM
Just putting this out there -

I once worked at a firm that had some incompetents with billing/admin duties.  This type of thing happened several times.  The billing attorney would send in specific changes to the bill, and it would go to the client late and crazy.  The incompetents were fired when a client took their business elsewhere because of it.

My guess is that the partner cut the associate's time but the changes were not made before the bill went out.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Bob W on June 14, 2015, 09:01:30 AM
I would chat with the Lawyer. Obviously, it's an error (giving him the benefit of the doubt) and you're giving him notice so that he can correct it. Be nice.

If he balks, a mention of a Bar Complaint, will usually have an attorney's attention.
+1
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: mrshudson on June 14, 2015, 09:20:32 AM
I practice law and agree that even agreeing to $1250 was unnecessary. Remember, as a client, you are in charge. Yes, the initial amount is an estimate, but as you pointed out, one of the errors was at their end, which means it should not cost you anything to have it fixed. Moreover, the fact that the initial estimate was a range, implies that the $1000 is the upper limit. For future reference, here's some language for flagging these things (both first shot at contacting and for standing your ground):

Assume: Mid-western law firm, where understatement and politeness wins over an outright attack.

Dear Lawyer,

Thank you for your invoice dated ____________. Per our notes, we see that the initial estimate was between $700-$1000. The invoice indicates an amount that is 2.5 times the ceiling of the estimate, and understandably, we are concerned. We request a revised invoice commensurate with the original estimate, considering that the final work product was not out of scope with the one initially requested by us.

Sincerely,
__________

By doing the above, you are flagging that this is a problem, and giving them opportunity to consider the issue and win you over by their excellent client service.

And  if the lawyer responds to you with the weak sauce e-mail, follow-up like this:

Dear lawyer,

Thank you for your explanation, I recognize that discrepancies in accounting can and do occur. However, this was not a fixed fee arrangement, and the initial estimate quoted to us was a range based on the hourly billing arrangement. Our understanding is that $700 is the typical lower end of the fees, and if any changes or revisions to the work were to be requested, those would still be captured in the upper end of $1000. While we believe that the extent of the changes we requested  did not warrant ____ hours of additional work at $ ____/hour billing rate, we are happy to pay the upper limit of $1000 for the work performed.

(Optional: If you have been generally happy with the work quality/lawyer expertise except for the pricing discrepancy) Except for this one issue, I have been generally happy with the work you have done for us and would consider referring you, should that need arise with my colleagues.

Sincerely,


Lawyers *love* referrals and any potential for one would mean that they are immediately on your side. So I would throw that in there if I was happy with the lawyer you were communicating with (assuming senior associate/managing partner). Believe it or not, sometimes excellent lawyers get stuck with sub-par accounting department and/or legal assistants and can't do anything about it if it's a large and bureaucratic law firm.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: mrshudson on June 14, 2015, 09:21:29 AM
I would also advise against hostilities (e.g., bar complaint) this early into the discussion.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Alabaster on June 14, 2015, 04:49:42 PM
If I could just temporarily derail this back to the whole LegalZoom thing....

If your beneficiaries are a trust or charitable organization and no-one is going to contest the will, do you really need a lawyer to manually make the will?

It doesn't seem reasonable to me. Why would anyone make trouble if you pay your pound of flesh (death taxes or whatever) and leave reasonably clear instructions on what is to happen with the money?
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: pbkmaine on June 14, 2015, 04:58:00 PM
Re Legal Zoom: The ex-husband of one of my colleagues just died. She was his executor. His will was on Legal Zoom. The probate court had all kinds of trouble accepting the documents. They were not in the right order; they were stapled in the wrong place; they were notarized in the wrong place; the signatures were hard to read, and on and on and on. In the end she had to retain an attorney herself to shepherd the process through. I can tell you with my own will, which was done by a law firm, the attorney was exceptionally careful to have witnesses in the room and to ask me specific questions which they needed to be witness to. This was in addition to their witnessing my signature. The documents were arranged in a certain way. These small things appear to be quite important.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Paul der Krake on June 14, 2015, 05:24:14 PM
Re Legal Zoom: The ex-husband of one of my colleagues just died. She was his executor. His will was on Legal Zoom. The probate court had all kinds of trouble accepting the documents. They were not in the right order; they were stapled in the wrong place; they were notarized in the wrong place; the signatures were hard to read, and on and on and on. In the end she had to retain an attorney herself to shepherd the process through. I can tell you with my own will, which was done by a law firm, the attorney was exceptionally careful to have witnesses in the room and to ask me specific questions which they needed to be witness to. This was in addition to their witnessing my signature. The documents were arranged in a certain way. These small things appear to be quite important.
(emphasis mine)

That's just crazy. C'mon people, we as a species have been dying and leaving our crap to others since the stone age. Why is this any more complicated than signing over the title of a car? Can we lobby the state to put out 5 to 10 samples that will cover 99% of cases and will be guaranteed to be accepted?
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: KungfuRabbit on June 14, 2015, 06:32:03 PM
lawyers are scum. 
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: kkbmustang on June 14, 2015, 06:41:32 PM
I should know better by now, but I'm commenting anyway. I'm a (former) attorney/consultant, a tax attorney at that, and there are several areas of specialty I would not tackle myself. Estate planning is one of them.

While the attorney should have honored the upper end of the estimate, I think he was justified in billing more to accommodate the revisions (but not the error). Many times, what seems like a simple revision (adding a beneficiary) results in a lot of changes throughout the document - some additional paragraphs or sections are required, thereby jacking with the entire document, including internal section references. A busted reference can blow the whole meaning of a provision, which can result in extended litigation.

Also, I don't know where the OP lives, but $295 is not a high hourly rate. Based on my experience in a big city in Texas (so not NYC/DC/LA - typically more expensive areas) it's actually quite reasonable. It's also not unusual for the work to be performed by an associate and reviewed by the partner (but the fact they were both billed out at the same rate IS weird).

And I feel like I need to point out that the attorney is not personally being paid $295/hour for providing the document. There's overhead, accounting, marketing, professional fees, blah, blah, blah.

Just as a point of reference on the billing rate issue, before I stopped consulting/practicing, my hourly rate was literally $740/hour. And the most senior professionals in my firm topped out over $1,000/hour. Granted, the clients were corporate, but we were worth every last penny. And our clients were happy to have our help (even with the corresponding invoices) - it was not unusual to be at the end of project having saved a client tens of millions of dollars (legally, I feel I must add).   

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It's a saying applicable to both entities and individuals.

The OP was quoted an amount, which should have been honored. That's a totally separate issue from the one that's underlying this thread - cheaping out on legal documents, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

lawyers are scum.

Not all lawyers are scum.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: kkbmustang on June 14, 2015, 06:51:55 PM
Also forgot to add that the attorney should have provided you with an engagement letter BEFORE work began, which should have outlined the terms of the agreement and the scope of services to be provided. Apparently, he did not. It's so much easier to dispute something you have in writing.

I hope it all works out for you, OP.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: Mustache_In_Training on June 15, 2015, 07:04:09 AM
UPDATE: Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the advice given! The lawyer agreed to my proposal of meeting in the middle at $1,250. I am satisfied with that. It's not the $300 some of you guys were paying, but it's not $2500 either.

I hope I never have to go through any of this again, but if I do I will feel much better prepared now.

Thanks again, the Mustachian community is awesome. It's a great place not only for financial advice, but life advice too :)
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: CommonCents on June 15, 2015, 08:16:39 AM
Glad your negotiation was successful!
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: JessEsq on June 15, 2015, 08:53:55 AM
I'm a lawyer, too. This was a great conversation to follow. A few observations:

Adding beneficiaries to a Will who are or could be minors (future children...) can be a large change requiring appointment of a guardian, testamentary trusts (which I hate) and so forth. It's possible that change was more significant than you think.

That said, a *good* attorney would have 1) advised you that the change was extensive and 2) had a written fee agreement in the first place!

We charge all of our estate planning (with only a very few exceptions) on a flat fee basis. The fee is written & signed and half paid down at the first meeting with balance at completion (or, we take payments, etc...). This would not happen in my office because I would have 1) eaten the difference in time for failing to estimate correctly or 2) advised that the change would cost more.

For a point of reference -- our charge for "simple" wills, health care and financial powers of attorney is $750-$1,000 for a married couple. It's generally a meeting to discuss, we forward drafts, and then a meeting to sign.

I wouldn't trust anything to legal zoom. It's not tailored to your situation and without precise instructions we find people witness/notarize incorrectly possibly invalidating the entire document.

Glad you resolved this dispute.
Title: Re: Had a will made.. Just got the bil, holy ****!
Post by: G-dog on June 15, 2015, 04:43:56 PM
UPDATE: Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the advice given! The lawyer agreed to my proposal of meeting in the middle at $1,250. I am satisfied with that. It's not the $300 some of you guys were paying, but it's not $2500 either.

I hope I never have to go through any of this again, but if I do I will feel much better prepared now.

Thanks again, the Mustachian community is awesome. It's a great place not only for financial advice, but life advice too :)

Glad you survived this class in the school of hard knocks - now you are wiser and the $250 may be a very cheap lesson learned.