Give money to “rich” church?

[SilentC]

We started casually attending a neighborhood church this year, and they have been really opaque about how they take in and spend their money and I had to dig around at the IRS to confirm that they do in fact have a 10mn+ net worth for an in person attendance of about 300-400 per week.  My spouse thinks we should not give them a cent and give only where there is real need.  The comments here in tithing have been helpful but I’m wondering if going to a church that has a questionable number of full time staff, fancy building etc. changes the equation. 

[seattlecyclone]

The reality is most churches spend most of their money internally. Best to think of them as more of a social club instead of any sort of real charitable organization. You go there to spend some time with (and get to know) other people who have a shared interest. Budget willing they'll spend money on a building, a preacher, religious education staff for the kids, and if they have a bit left over they'll put some funds toward facilitating the cost of their members doing good volunteer work they care about in the broader community.

The quality of all these things tends to reflect the wealth level of the congregants. A church with rich members will own a nice building and retain a well-paid full-time minister, while a church with poor members might rent some cheap meeting space once a week and the preacher is more of a "side gig" position.

So if you go into a church and think "this place is way too fancy," well you just found a rich church. Most religions tend to promote the idea that poor people should be included, so they'll never outright tell you to look for a less-fancy church if you aren't willing or able to pay out a fair share of the church's expenses, but there's a fair probability that you'll always feel a bit out of your element. Remember, it's a social club. There's a certain type of person who would put a bunch of money into spending time in a fancy building. If that's not you, perhaps you won't get along well with many of the other members. Certainly give it a chance if something about the place speaks to you and/or your spouse, but it sounds as though you both have some misgivings about the amount of resources that go into the place and I personally find that's a feeling that never really goes away.

[curious_george]

The reality is most churches spend most of their money internally. Best to think of them as more of a social club instead of any sort of real charitable organization. You go there to spend some time with (and get to know) other people who have a shared interest. Budget willing they'll spend money on a building, a preacher, religious education staff for the kids, and if they have a bit left over they'll put some funds toward facilitating the cost of their members doing good volunteer work they care about in the broader community.

The quality of all these things tends to reflect the wealth level of the congregants. A church with rich members will own a nice building and retain a well-paid full-time minister, while a church with poor members might rent some cheap meeting space once a week and the preacher is more of a "side gig" position.

So if you go into a church and think "this place is way too fancy," well you just found a rich church. Most religions tend to promote the idea that poor people should be included, so they'll never outright tell you to look for a less-fancy church if you aren't willing or able to pay out a fair share of the church's expenses, but there's a fair probability that you'll always feel a bit out of your element. Remember, it's a social club. There's a certain type of person who would put a bunch of money into spending time in a fancy building. If that's not you, perhaps you won't get along well with many of the other members. Certainly give it a chance if something about the place speaks to you and/or your spouse, but it sounds as though you both have some misgivings about the amount of resources that go into the place and I personally find that's a feeling that never really goes away.

+1

I agree with all of this - churches often spend absurd amounts of money internally.

Where I go to church, for example, we have multiple well paid ministers who all drive nice luxury suvs and the such. They're pretty open about where the money goes on their website - the vast majority goes to their salaries and continued renovations and expansions of the property.

On occasion we have mission trips, but they are mostly paid for by the people going on the trips and sold as Christian vacation packages. You get t shirts and swag showing off where you went, what you did, etc.

I don't give financially to the church, and don't feel bad about it either. I'm just not a big fan of giving money to people who live in more material luxury than I do, but who preach about giving money to the poor.

There are much better charity options in the world that don't involve supporting people who drive around in expensive,luxury suvs.

With all of that said - I obviously think church is a great social club and there is a community aspect of it that is hard to replace these days, so I loosely support organized religion for the community and morality aspect. I just don't think church is the best charity give money to, because the reality is the money given to the church is usually spent on the church building and staff salaries. Most of it doesn't actually help the poor.

At least for my church (which is admittingly a large fancy rich church) anyway. I know some smaller churches that are much more involved in charity work that I would feel more comfortable giving money to.

[reeshau]

The church should have an annual congregation meeting to discuss its budget, at which point spending should be apparent.  Ask a member of staff for a copy of their annual report.

Being opaque is different that something being hard to find.  Even fancy churches don't have significant technical staff, so many are just still "old fashioned."

[SilentC]

Great points @seattlecyclone and @TreeLeaf.  That’s how we have viewed prior churches, but prior churches needed funds for roof repairs and paid out a decent chunk (~20%) to community.

Also a good point on the congregation meeting, I’ll ask if they have one.  I’ve asked for the annual several times and there is never any follow through so either they are blowing me off or it’s insanely disorganized behind the scenes. 

[Tasse]

I was raised with a religious tithe and I still give 10% of my income away every year, but I've always (at least, since I was about 12) given it directly to charity and not to church. IMO that is still following the instruction to give to those in need. Do you have qualms about that solution?

[lhamo]

I am no longer religious (was raised evangelical) but personally I would not choose to attend or give to a church that was at odds with my values.  Surely there are other churches in your area that you could attend/support?  I would look for one with a robust social services component -- many here in Seattle are involved with support for the homeless, run food banks, have low-cost childcare centers, etc.

[dandarc]

I do give a fair amount of money to our church in our old city (probably winding that down since we moved, but as a top-5 donor and member of finance committee I'm very aware of how financially dependent we are on our largest donors). Our small-ish UU church in North Florida probably is rich relative to other churches in the area, but doesn't sound "rich" to the level you are describing. But we are fairly objectively rich relative to many similarly sized congregations in our denomination and other local churches and I'd personally say relative to our annual budget - we have $1.4 million in endowment funds, a nice paid-off physical campus. And the budget's about $300K per year. I know many small businesses would love to

I may differ from others here in that I view compensating our staff reasonably well is a reflection of our stated values. That being said, folks are hardly getting rich at our small UU church. Our highest paid employee by a fair margin is our minister who's total compensation cost under $100K when full time, under 70K after they went part time to help balance the budget last year (which I genuinely hope balancing the budget was not a large part of the reasoning). We only just got our childcare and some other staff up to a $15 per hour minimum in the last 2 or 3 years. So we have work to do on compensation - if we're going to hire someone to do a job, and our stated value is that we believe in the inherent worth and dignity of every person, it follows that compensation matters quite a bit to us.

In any event, I'd also point out that giving is always at the comfort level of the donor, and generally speaking people don't just show up and give large sums - that develops over time. So do what feels right to you in this regard, and sounds like this is a much larger operation that can more than handle it if you want to attend without donating for a time.

[HPstache]

I've served as a deacon at our Church, so I got a chance to see the money side of things.  A church like this probably has about a $1M annual budget.  They probably support a number of missionaries, outreach programs, causes, etc which may represent 10-20% of that budget.  A church of this size probably employs 6-8 people, both full time & part time, which represents 50% of the budget.  They probably pay the lead pastor $100K/yr provides a house on campus or gives a housing allowance to the maximum allowable by the IRS.  The rest of the staff includes a full time secretary, office helper, custodian, youth pastor, associate pastor, worship leader, kids program leader, etc.  The rest goes to paying the bills to "keep the lights on" as well as build up funds for major building/property renovations, etc.

I don't think "net worth" is really a thing to judge a church on.  They often own the building, and sometimes will have large donations in savings funds that kick out 4% every year (similar to a FIRE concept) for some special thing that would be included in their NW that is not necessarily money they can just spend on whatever.  Most churches are open an honest about how the the budget is spent at a high level.  If you are there for a year, it will probably be announced that the budget is available for comment once a year.

[reeshau]

Good point about the building, @HPstache .  I would add the building is not just an asset, but also a good part of community involvement / giving.  Our church hosts over 200 Scouts of all stripes, AA / other support meetings, grief counseling, and a lot of other groups.  They could otherwise be hosted at the Y or a library or community center, but the church performs that function, too.  (And with no requirement to be affiliated with it)  There are also the actions of the congregation, and giving beyond direct donations.  Yesterday, we held a blood drive.  The Christmas toy drive also just kicked off.  Before that was a clothing drive, and before that was a school supply drive.  We don't host our own food bank, but do have a food bank partner that we focus on the first week of each month.

It's not to list a litany of things, but those are generally direct giving of things; they do not flow through the church's budget.

[GilesMM]

If you find the church staffing "questionable", maybe find another church. If you like the church and want help moving past your concerns, sit down with a leader or two and discuss it.  You could feel them out join as a church member but not contributing financially - they may have suggestions for other ways for you to support the organization.

[SilentC]

I've served as a deacon at our Church, so I got a chance to see the money side of things.  A church like this probably has about a $1M annual budget.  They probably support a number of missionaries, outreach programs, causes, etc which may represent 10-20% of that budget.  A church of this size probably employs 6-8 people, both full time & part time, which represents 50% of the budget.  They probably pay the lead pastor $100K/yr provides a house on campus or gives a housing allowance to the maximum allowable by the IRS.  The rest of the staff includes a full time secretary, office helper, custodian, youth pastor, associate pastor, worship leader, kids program leader, etc.  The rest goes to paying the bills to "keep the lights on" as well as build up funds for major building/property renovations, etc.

I don't think "net worth" is really a thing to judge a church on.  They often own the building, and sometimes will have large donations in savings funds that kick out 4% every year (similar to a FIRE concept) for some special thing that would be included in their NW that is not necessarily money they can just spend on whatever.  Most churches are open an honest about how the the budget is spent at a high level.  If you are there for a year, it will probably be announced that the budget is available for comment once a year.

I forgot to mention the monthly budget is ~140k, that’s the only info one person I talked to offered up but they didn’t know off the top of their head how it was allocated.  Net worth definitely is a crude gauge.  At the end of the day the path of least resistance is probably find a new church that my spouse is ok with giving some money, and that will actually talk about money with us and not make it some big secret.

[reeshau]

  At the end of the day the path of least resistance is probably find a new church that my spouse is ok with giving some money, and that will actually talk about money with us and not make it some big secret.

Nothing wrong with that, either.  When we moved to Houston, it took us 2 years to find our church.  Covid made it harder, but I also moved carefully: giving each choice a fair chance over time.  This one, though, was an almost immediate fit for us.  I hope you find yours!

[Cranky]

A big church usually offers a lot of programming and that costs money. Kids activities, small groups, etc.

If it’s a registered nonprofit there is surely an annual budget and a treasurer.

Generally, there are pledges that go into the annual budget which yes, tends to be salaries and maintenance and utilities and stuff like that, but there may well be special collections that go to outreach. Our current church (and we’re fairly new) does a monthly collection (loose plate) that goes to specific projects. This fall it was gift cards that the social worker at the high school could hand out as needed.

We pledge annually to support the church itself, but also give to the outreach programs as well as to charities of our choice.

[Freedomin5]

The Bible never says “give to the church” when it talks about tithing. It says to “give back to the Lord a portion of what He’s given you”, and it’s specifically for your benefit, to remind you that everything you have was given to you by God. The Bible also says, “Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” So give to the organizations that God has put on your heart to give to. If you’re not giving to your church as a cheerful giver, then cheerfully give your tithe to other organizations.

I’ve always gone to a wealthy church. As long as the church is spending the money in alignment to Biblical principles, I don’t see a problem with giving. However, if you’re convinced that the church is spending in a way that is not aligned with the Bible, and it's impacting your faith, then perhaps find a different church. Ultimately, tithing is for your benefit and is supposed to draw you closer to God. If that’s not happening at this church, find one that can encourage and support you in your spiritual journey.

[reeshau]

Too true!  I give to my church, and am increasing my giving as a new member.  But I still give more directly to other charities with whom we have been working for a long time.  If anything, I will try to build up with the church as I learn more and get more involved--I will not cut out the others to move money around.

Such has been the bounty of the stock market since retiring in 2020.

[FINate]

The Bible never says “give to the church” when it talks about tithing. It says to “give back to the Lord a portion of what He’s given you”, and it’s specifically for your benefit, to remind you that everything you have was given to you by God. The Bible also says, “Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” So give to the organizations that God has put on your heart to give to. If you’re not giving to your church as a cheerful giver, then cheerfully give your tithe to other organizations.

I’ve always gone to a wealthy church. As long as the church is spending the money in alignment to Biblical principles, I don’t see a problem with giving. However, if you’re convinced that the church is spending in a way that is not aligned with the Bible, and it's impacting your faith, then perhaps find a different church. Ultimately, tithing is for your benefit and is supposed to draw you closer to God. If that’s not happening at this church, find one that can encourage and support you in your spiritual journey.

Came here to essentially say this^^^

God doesn't need your money. The ability to give of your finances is itself a gift from God. Look around and notice how attachment to money and material possessions distort us and has great power to posses us. Money is good when put in its proper place, but it's a terrible and harsh master. Regular sacrificial giving is a constant reminder that our money isn't really ours, and this tangible action helps us keep money in it's proper place: good yet not ultimate.

IMO, to the best of my understanding of scripture (others will disagree, just my understanding), tithing or giving 10% is a good rule of thumb based on the wisdom of the old covenant, but it is not a binding command for Christians who are in the new covenant. We are called to give generously and with a cheerful heart. For some this will mean less than 10%, for others more.

If you have concerns about how a church is spending money I would absolutely ask the leadership for a copy of the budget. Transparency is what you're looking for. If they are weird about it or otherwise refuse I would look for a different church. That said, you should expect most of the budget to go towards keeping the lights on and paying salaries. That's the necessary nature of the church. While the Apostle Paul was known to mostly support himself in ministry (the original "tent maker" pastor), it is notable that he makes a case -- appealing to the wisdom of old testament law -- that pastors should be compensated for their labor in 1 Corinthians 9:9. Full-time staff need to make a living, which is expensive, so this is typically the bulk of the budget.

I used to see this cynically, a big waste of money and not really a benefit to society. But my views on this have changed over the years. Equipping the saints to do the good words prepared for them takes a lot of effort. Religious organizations perform important (I would argue necessary) functions: building community and social connection, giving people a story and meaning beyond self, loving neighbor (and enemy) through acts of service. In other words, the benefit to society isn't typically or mostly directly from the budget, but rather indirectly though the body of believers living out their faith in the community, which is difficult to quantify.

[AMandM]

Your view of the church's finances will depend on what you think the church's mission is supposed to be. Every charity has a mission that dictates its. If I donate money to a food pantry, I expect it to be spent mainly on food, but if I donate money to a symphony orchestra, I expect a lot of it will be spent on musicians' salaries and upkeep of the concert hall and I won't be upset if it doesn't get used to help hungry people.

Similarly, if you think a church is primarily a social-services organization whose mission is to use donor money to benefit disadvantaged people, then generous staff salaries and big beautiful buildings will seem like money directed away from the mission. But if you think the church's primary mission is the spiritual care of its congregation, or the spreading of the Gospel to unbelievers, or a social club, or the conduct of worship, then you would have different spending priorities.

[SilentC]

These are all great views, I think I’m understanding some of the values element I was missing.  I probably should look at this church as a “luxury good” and decide if there is value to that.  I’ve looked at several church financial statements and most of the money does stay in the church so I get that, but my cheap a$$ might feel more at home in a 50 year old building that doesn’t have a $4,000 copier in the administration office. 

[FINate]

These are all great views, I think I’m understanding some of the values element I was missing.  I probably should look at this church as a “luxury good” and decide if there is value to that.  I’ve looked at several church financial statements and most of the money does stay in the church so I get that, but my cheap a$$ might feel more at home in a 50 year old building that doesn’t have a $4,000 copier in the administration office.

Makes sense. Go where you can fully engage with the community and its values, though also know that no church is perfect. You're going to deal with flaws no matter where you end up. The key is differentiating essential vs. secondary issues, and having lots of grace around these secondary things.

Also want to add that the $4k printer may not be as bad as it seems. Most larger churches do a ton of printing and it is often more cost effective per-print to get something up to the task. A printer in this price range is expected and appropriate if it gets a lot of use.

And you never know, the printer could have been a donation or similar. I've donated around $10k worth of networking hardware to our church. Why? Because a stable, functional network/WiFi is an integral part of ministry for us, from kid check-in to streaming the sermon to the sound system. Trying to cover a large building with consumer routers and extenders is cheap in the short-term, but it is a terrible waste of time and resources in the long-run as people who should be focused on ministry fight the setup. As the person who most often gets roped into these issues, for my own sanity it was worth providing enterprise grade products designed for this kind of setting.

[SilentC]

These are all great views, I think I’m understanding some of the values element I was missing.  I probably should look at this church as a “luxury good” and decide if there is value to that.  I’ve looked at several church financial statements and most of the money does stay in the church so I get that, but my cheap a$$ might feel more at home in a 50 year old building that doesn’t have a $4,000 copier in the administration office.

Makes sense. Go where you can fully engage with the community and its values, though also know that no church is perfect. You're going to deal with flaws no matter where you end up. The key is differentiating essential vs. secondary issues, and having lots of grace around these secondary things.

Also want to add that the $4k printer may not be as bad as it seems. Most larger churches do a ton of printing and it is often more cost effective per-print to get something up to the task. A printer in this price range is expected and appropriate if it gets a lot of use.

And you never know, the printer could have been a donation or similar. I've donated around $10k worth of networking hardware to our church. Why? Because a stable, functional network/WiFi is an integral part of ministry for us, from kid check-in to streaming the sermon to the sound system. Trying to cover a large building with consumer routers and extenders is cheap in the short-term, but it is a terrible waste of time and resources in the long-run as people who should be focused on ministry fight the setup. As the person who most often gets roped into these issues, for my own sanity it was worth providing enterprise grade products designed for this kind of setting.

Ha yes the printer was kind of meant to be a joke.  We do have digital hymnals but I’m sure it gets used for something. I’m sure a lot does get donated by individuals like yourself, corporations just taking a tax write off on the $4,000 copier that isn’t selling etc.

[Cranky]

These are all great views, I think I’m understanding some of the values element I was missing.  I probably should look at this church as a “luxury good” and decide if there is value to that.  I’ve looked at several church financial statements and most of the money does stay in the church so I get that, but my cheap a$$ might feel more at home in a 50 year old building that doesn’t have a $4,000 copier in the administration office.

Trust me, an old building is crazy expensive to maintain. You have to call special guys for your slate roof and stained glass repairs and copper gutters and 70 year old elevator!

One thing I wanted in a new church was a relatively low maintenance building.