The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: whattodo on November 10, 2014, 09:23:31 AM
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Hi All,
I am a long time member here but have created a new user name for this discussion, some may be able to guess why. I know there are a lot of smart and level headed people here that I hope can give me advice.
I know this guy who’s been with a lovely woman for the last 4 years. They live together in the house he owns. She is pretty mustachian and he will loose the money she pays for rent and about half the food budget if she leaves. It won't break him, just slow his FI date. The relationship has always been both volatile and difficult and he doesn’t like that in general.
On a Friday evening they argued at home, and during this argument she pushed/hit him from behind into a wall. Then later she slammed his laptop screen down on his hands, and after that threw his phone across the room into the wall.
On Sunday, she locked him in the basement of the house for an hour by blocking the stairwell physically so that he either stayed where he was or he had to physically move her, he chose the former.
He is now saying he is breaking up with her. She won’t accept this and she is saying she won’t leave and to this end forced him to sleep in the same bed with her last night, even though he tried not to. I think it was an uncomfortable night for him.
She is saying that we need to compromise more in the relationship and the reason she gets so angry is because she cares so much.
Should he break up with her or try to work it out? She says these things happen in all relationships, he doesn’t know because he is not very good or experienced at relationships?
If they do break up how should he get her to leave his home if she is refusing?
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Physical abuse is the deal breaker. Rid yourself of her. In case you are even on the fence about it, please think ahead to: how would she treat your children? your pets? Nope.
Getting her her to "accept" it means that you make your decision and stand firm. No engaging with her other than very polite and distant. You move all of your stuff to a different room
As to how you move her out, the mechanics of it--it sounds difficult if your house is her legal residence. I hope someone here will have some practical steps for you to follow.
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Holy shit! Yes, break up with her. That is abuse. My recommendation is you speak to police and file a restraining order. That would allow you to evict her faster (at least in my state). Please take pictures of any evidence of what she did for the restraining order and to protect yourself from getting accused of doing it.
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This is classic abuse. There is no way around that. The guy in this relationship needs to leave ASAP! Her behavior is NOT acceptable. It will only get worse.
I have arguments in my relationship as well, I would never hit my SO and he would never hit me.
Please get help, and get out. There are organizations that help with domestic violent and abuse. Seek them out and run away. Set up a new temporary life, and have her evicted from the house.
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She's a fuckin' psycho! This isn't even a question. The first sign of physical violence would have been the last day with her, followed by a trip to the courthouse for eviction paperwork and a domestic violence injunction. It will only get worse from there.
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Yes, I would say end it now if you have doubts.
In my experience, really great relationships are great from the start. There is not a lot of volatility or difficulty. Hard times might occur, but they don't involve physical violence and throwing things.
Think about how this might play out when stress increases if you have kids.
As far as getting her out goes, if she won't accept leaving the ultimate end remedy is a court order. You probably won't get to that point if you make it clear that the relationship is over. No-one can "force" you to sleep in the same bed with them btw. Doing so does not send a clear message.
One solution if you've given her notice to the end of the month (or sooner) and she does leave might be taking a day off work, packing her stuff, and changing the locks. Not sure of the landlord tenant rules where you are but where I live they don't apply to room-mate situations like yours.
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Thanks for the advice everyone. Its difficult for a guy in his forties to admit this is happening, he feels really dumb. What about throwing things, is that common/acceptable for women to do in relationships?
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Physical abuse is what it is. no excuses. get out of the relationship now. file a complaint with the police - you need this documented in case she's mad enough to start accusing you.
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Thanks for the advice everyone. Its difficult for a guy in his forties to admit this is happening, he feels really dumb. What about throwing things, is that common/acceptable for women to do in relationships?
Don't feel dumb, it happens to a lot of smart people. And no, in non-abusive relationships women don't throw things. In fact, doing that, and cause other damage to objects is often a warning sign for abuse. Please, please get out of there. Let us know if there is anything we can do. That includes finding a domestic abuse lawyer (or advocate group). Please stay safe.
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Physical abuse is what it is. no excuses. get out of the relationship now. file a complaint with the police - you need this documented in case she's mad enough to start accusing you.
This happens A LOT! Abusers turn the police on their victims. Please cover your ass and take pictures and go to the police ASAP.
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Conflicts happen. Arguments happen. Maybe saying a few things you can't take back happens every now and then. Physical abuse is inexcusable. Destruction of property is inexcusable. Forcing someone to sleep in the same bed with you is inexcusable. If I were in his shoes I would've either complied with that request or left immediately, because this sounds like a Lorena Bobbit (spelling?) type situation.
Breakup, restraining order, eviction. FI should not even be considered in this equation. Do what is safe, not what is financially smart.
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One difficult part is they are both professionals and work in the same place. So involving police etc. could embarrass them both at work. I think he will have to just stand firm for a while and see how it goes.
The sleeping situation is odd. There are no locks on the doors and so where he went she just kept getting in that bed.
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I'd have to agree with the others and would advise calling the police the next time she gets abusive with you. That would at least start to provide a record of behavior that you might need down the road.
And I wouldn't advise packing her things and changing the locks on her. I'm not sure if the laws are the same for you, but in Texas you have to go through an eviction process, otherwise you might end up getting sued by her for up to 6 months living costs, (ie another apartment rental) moving costs and possibly legal costs.
I had a "friend" that I let stay with me while she was unemployed and things turned bad. Fortunately she moved out and I didn't have to go through the eviction process, but if I did it would have cost around $300 and I would have to give her time to move out. If I remember correctly, it required posting an eviction notice where they would see it, a 30 day period for them to find a new place and then hiring a constable to perform the eviction.
Good luck and I hope it goes easy for you.
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I'd have to agree with the others and would advise calling the police the next time she gets abusive with you. That would at least start to provide a record of behavior that you might need down the road.
And I wouldn't advise packing her things and changing the locks on her. I'm not sure if the laws are the same for you, but in Texas you have to go through an eviction process, otherwise you might end up getting sued by her for up to 6 months living costs, (ie another apartment rental) moving costs and possibly legal costs.
I had a "friend" that I let stay with me while she was unemployed and things turned bad. Fortunately she moved out and I didn't have to go through the eviction process, but if I did it would have cost around $300 and I would have to give her time to move out. If I remember correctly, it required posting an eviction notice where they would see it, a 30 day period for them to find a new place and then hiring a constable to perform the eviction.
Good luck and I hope it goes easy for you.
Many states have an expedited eviction proceeding if there is abuse. But that does require the restraining order and dealing with the cops.
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Thanks for the advice everyone. Its difficult for a guy in his forties to admit this is happening, he feels really dumb. What about throwing things, is that common/acceptable for women to do in relationships?
It's not really acceptable for anyone to behave in this manner. She sounds very unstable. What if her fits of range get worse and she hurts him permanently?
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She is saying that we need to compromise more in the relationship and the reason she gets so angry is because she cares so much.
No, fuck no, that does not happen in all relationships... only abusive ones. I'm a woman and I'm telling you right now that stuff is not normal. No, not even throwing things - that is childish and stupid behavior. She escalates the fight so that she automatically scares you into backing off - it's controlling and abusive behavior.
She is a bad person with a serious problem. She doesn't "care so much" - she just expects and demands control and complete obedience and when she doesn't get that... you probably make her so angry that she blows, and then blames you for the anger and abuse. This is CLASSIC ABUSER behavior. She makes it your fault or that she's just so passionate that she gets carried away? Bullshit. She's a grown woman acting like a bully and reckless asshole. Dump her ass as soon as possible.
http://www.wikihow.com/Get-Out-of-an-Abusive-Relationship
Call a lawyer and get professional advice on getting her out of your house and out of your life. I definitely would tell your close friends and family members what is going on, and make sure you remove sentimental/valuables from the property (store at a good friends or something while she's at work) and make sure to take pictures of the property and/or have witnesses so you can prove what state you left it in and sue her ass if she damages anything, serve her eviction notice (according to your lawyer's advice) and stay away until she's gone. Hell, I'd possibly even file charges with the police but check with your lawyer to see what they think would be the quickest way to get free of this psycho.
You have nothing to be embarrassed about - she is an abusive asshole, NOT YOU. You deserve to have a partner that respects you and listens to you and can have disagreements without laying hands on you or being abusive in any way!
And get professional counseling. You don't deserve to be treated like this, and the fact that you felt like this might be okay even for a little while let alone years is a good sign that you have your own self esteem problems to work through. Hugs and stay safe!
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Thanks for the advice everyone. Its difficult for a guy in his forties to admit this is happening, he feels really dumb. What about throwing things, is that common/acceptable for women to do in relationships?
It is not common nor is is acceptable.
I'll admit to you I experienced/felt much of the same issues in my mid 20s. Call this sexist if you will, but I was taught that under NO circumstances do you ever hit a woman. And for several years I repeatedly found myself in the situation where there was volatile shouting, shoving, throwing things, etc. It did bad things for my self esteem and just thoroughly made me question everything.
Getting out was -- hands down -- the best thing that ever happened to me. After a bit of sorting things out, I entered a relationship that was 100% absolutely the opposite. It's worked for 20 years and I do not foresee a situation where it will stop working. Things can get better.
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Those are some major red flags and it sounds like a very sticky and painful situation. Please reconsider going to the police to make sure this is documented. If not, please at least do your best to stay away from this woman. It may be a very good time to consider a new job.
Everyone deserves to have someone who treats them well. Abuse and violence have no place in a healthy relationship, it takes a lot of strength to realize that things have gone south and leave. You have nothing to be embarrassed about. It is not your fault or due to inexperience, so please do not feel dumb. Abusers will often come across as the perfect mate and then slowly start cycling into violence.
Eviction issues may vary by the state. Start the process for whatever legal requirements that may be necessary yours.
Keep safety in mind. She may become violent when she is evicted. At this point, do not be alone with her. Go with friends to get anything important to you out of the house (including personal documents) as well as serve the eviction notice. Stay with friends until she leaves. Once she is out, get the locks re-keyed.
Good luck.
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Thanks for the advice everyone. Its difficult for a guy in his forties to admit this is happening, he feels really dumb. What about throwing things, is that common/acceptable for women to do in relationships?
It is not common nor is is acceptable.
I'll admit to you I experienced/felt much of the same issues in my mid 20s. Call this sexist if you will, but I was taught that under NO circumstances do you ever hit a woman. And for several years I repeatedly found myself in the situation where there was volatile shouting, shoving, throwing things, etc. It did bad things for my self esteem and just thoroughly made me question everything.
Getting out was -- hands down -- the best thing that ever happened to me. After a bit of sorting things out, I entered a relationship that was 100% absolutely the opposite. It's worked for 20 years and I do not foresee a situation where it will stop working. Things can get better.
I'd say, especially in this case, DO NOT HIT HER BACK. If you do call the cops they will blame the man if she has bruises. The best thing to do, in that case, is restrain, if you can without harming either of you. But honestly, the number one best is call the cops now and get her out of your home. I understand it may hurt at work, but is your job worth your life? Abusers escalate.
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Stay with friends until she leaves. Once she is out, get the locks re-keyed.
It's a good thought, but be careful with this advice. I'm not an attorney, but I've heard divorce attorney's say leaving the residence is a terrible thing to do since the person residing in the house can have more rights to that home than the owner. No idea if this is legitimate, and I'm sure it would vary by state. Either way, just be careful about giving up where you live. Talk to a lawyer, soon.
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This really is very helpful. Thank you everyone! I was thinking at one point that the one way he might stay is if she agreed to get counseling. But from what everyone is saying its just not worth that risk.
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Thanks for the advice everyone. Its difficult for a guy in his forties to admit this is happening, he feels really dumb. What about throwing things, is that common/acceptable for women to do in relationships?
Don't feel dumb. And no, that is not normal. I consider myself a little bit of a nutcase/emotional wreck and even I have never thrown anything.
Physical abuse is what it is. no excuses. get out of the relationship now. file a complaint with the police - you need this documented in case she's mad enough to start accusing you.
This happens A LOT! Abusers turn the police on their victims. Please cover your ass and take pictures and go to the police ASAP.
Wow, didn't even think of that. Good advice.
I'm not sure what to legally do about the living situation, but a quick google of "domestic abuse resources for men" turned up several websites, so they may have ideas. You're definitely not the only one!!
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Stay with friends until she leaves. Once she is out, get the locks re-keyed.
It's a good thought, but be careful with this advice. I'm not an attorney, but I've heard divorce attorney's say leaving the residence is a terrible thing to do since the person residing in the house can have more rights to that home than the owner. No idea if this is legitimate, and I'm sure it would vary by state. Either way, just be careful about giving up where you live. Talk to a lawyer, soon.
Good point, I meant get re-keyed after she is completely moved out and the eviction process is final.
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This really is very helpful. Thank you everyone! I was thinking at one point that the one way he might stay is if she agreed to get counseling. But from what everyone is saying its just not worth that risk.
The only reason I'd agree to consider counseling is to get her to move out and keep you safe.
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Crap. This is going to be difficult. I know she still believes the relationship can be repaired. I don't know how a person gets into these situations. It seems like one is trapped in their own home.
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Another female here. Physical violence from either partner is a deal breaker. Doesn't matter if she's female. If you tolerate it, it will get worse. A small or even a big financial loss is nothing compared to going to jail, the male partner is far more likely to have this happen even if she is the violent one.
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Crap. This is going to be difficult. I know she still believes the relationship can be repaired. I don't know how a person gets into these situations. It seems like one is trapped in their own home.
That is one of the horrid things with abuse. Abusers often seem like great people and it is just with time that their hidden personality comes out and by then, often the chosen victim is trapped. One of the most dangerous times for a victim of abuse is when they try to leave, that time often is when the abuser ramps up the abuse. The idea, if I can't have you, no one can.
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You should really just cut to the chase, call a lawyer, and find out exactly what you need to do in your state, and do it now. The more you drag it out, the worse it will become.
I'm not sure that working together matters. If she chooses to freak out about it, it won't reflect badly on you as long as you are handling yourself in a mature and responsible way. Break up, ask her to move out, heck, offer her 1000$ for her first month's rent if she is out by the end of the week, and once she leaves, re-key all the locks (will be about 100$ to have a locksmith do it). If your lawyer says it's ok, of course.
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Whether you stay in this relationship will come down to if you perceive the benefits outweigh the problems. I have friends in similar situations that chose to remain and just deal with it. (see below for a recommendation on dealing from your end)
The problem for most of them is the unknown after the spilt. Dating and finding a suitable future mate. It could end up miraculously great, but the reality is that there just aren't that many 40ish single women out there who are great people, nice looking, in good health, with good incomes and spending histories that are also not on the psycho spectrum. If you want an independent one, finding one that would also want you might be very rare indeed. Most of the 40ish women will also come with baggage of kids and divorces. One has to ask if a woman is 40ish, has no kids, never been married and has all these great attributes, why that just doesn't add up?
Probably only 7% of the female population falls into your desired age category. Of that maybe 80% are in relationships. So you are down to around one in 100-200 being available. Of those maybe 10% meet the above criteria. So you're looking at maybe 1 in a thousand. Add that she also has to be into you and the odds get very close to zero. (sorry to be such a downer here)
I would also suggest you read Harley's book or web site titled "His Needs, Her Needs." If you follow his recommendations for what "you" should do, I have found that "her" actions will become much more in line with what you want. I would give the Harley method a college try for 3-6 months and keep detailed notes. You see, by changing your behaviors it automatically changes the other persons.
Under no circumstance should you marry this person. And I mean at least until there is 3 or 4 years of peace and joy.
Regarding the physical abuse --- I don't see that as a big a deal as the psychological abuse. Being whopped by a woman or locked in the basement is not that bad in the scope of things. But constant control issues coupled with random intermittent psycho episodes would make it difficult to love someone. The Harley method essentially gives you a guide for faking it till you make it. Once you give the love the SO will likely return the love in a manner that makes you fall madly in love with them.
So my answer after all said above is to --- Buy the Harley book --"His Needs, Her Needs" and follow it to a T.
Good luck our friend!
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So few questions here have such easy, clear answers. End the relationship immediately it will only escalate and trust me I know, my wife is a domestic violence perpetrator treatment provider.
End it end it end it end it.
DOING this feels harder than it really is, but there is no other outcome that is positive.
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Regarding the physical abuse --- I don't see that as a big a deal as the psychological abuse. Being whopped by a woman or locked in the basement is not that bad in the scope of things. But constant control issues coupled with random intermittent psycho episodes would make it difficult to love someone. The Harley method essentially gives you a guide for faking it till you make it. Once you give the love the SO will likely return the love in a manner that makes you fall madly in love with them.
I'm going to disagree a little. If you've ever been hit by a heavy object swung by a woman, you'll find it hurts quite a lot. And it can be very unnerving to sleep while you're considering that she might very well attack you as you sleep.
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Have your friend seek legal advice. Locks on bedroom doors can be installed in minutes, and should be job #1. The fact that you share a workplace and home space complicates things, and will probably lead to blow-over into worklife. Do not worry about the home / workplace spillover - instead, proactively speak with your manager and/or Human Resources, and explain the situation in confidence (especially the abuse) BEFORE it becomes a problem at work, and seek whatever help is available through the workplace.
She's right - couples do argue, but they don't throw things, and treat others like prisoners. The abuse is clear here, and therefore sets a different and more urgent bar. IMHO your friend should seek BOTH counseling and legal advice.
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I just want to say that it takes a lot of courage to admit something like this is happening, especially for a guy. It's not easy to deal with the fact that you (a smart person!) have been sucked into an abusive relationship. It can be hard to trust your own decision-making process after realizing it. I 100% agree with the other posters to get some documentation going (police report, restraining order, something) now, so that the abuser can't turn the tables later. A consultation with an attorney or other counselor who specializes in domestic abuse situations is also an excellent idea and needs to happen ASAP.
I found myself in a somewhat similar situation in my first year of college. There was no physical abuse but lots of emotional abuse, which in my opinion is even worse. I knew something wasn't quite right but couldn't put my finger on it, and so I didn't leave because what reason did I have? This person was "lovely" (as you said) in every other way. Eventually, during a fit of anger in an argument, this person confessed that they fantasized about how good it would feel to hit me. To make me hurt the way I was "hurting" them. It was a terrifying wake up call. (I still have no idea what I did to make them think I was hurting them or to cause so much anger. Mostly because it was abuse and that's what abusers do to keep you in the relationship.)
I broke up with them a few days later, but we were still living under the same roof for about another month. To top it off, we were also carpooling to school together -- and I had no other mode of transportation available to me. I was locked in a car with my abuser for at least 35 minutes twice a day...it was not a comfortable situation, to say the least. Honestly, in a situation where we worked together, I would've been looking for a new job ASAP. I doubt it will be possible to keep this craziness out of the workplace, and abusers are master manipulators. You just don't know what she might be able to convince other people to believe. And she *will* try to convince them she's perfectly reasonable and you are the crazy one. Her livelihood may depend on it.
When this person gets the break up news, they will respond with a tidal wave of emotional attacks and likely some physical ones too (given that they've already gone there). Stay calm and firm. Do NOT allow them to draw you in to one of their emotional booby-traps. They will get angry and demand to know why you are doing this to them. They will insist that you are the one being mean and hurtful and an unreasonable bully. They will likely throw things and try to damage anything that is meaningful to you. They may try to hit you. Stay as far away from them as you can. You must stay strong and *calmly* reiterate that the relationship is not working and you think it best to end it and move on. They will promise to do better. They will promise that it was just because they love you so much. They will promise you the sun and the moon and the stars. Don't listen to them. They are lying. Every Single Word is a lie designed to make you feel crazy and unreasonable, and convince you to stay. DON'T.
Make sure anything that is valuable or important to you is out of the house before having the break-up/move-out conversation. And have the police on speed dial. You should probably keep your phone with you at all times starting now, and you might want to start recording anytime you feel unsafe, even if it's just a voice recording (so it's not obvious that you're doing it).
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Not sure how this would suddenly happen "after four years of being a lovely person?" Were there signs of abusive behavior before now or is something else going on with her?
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Thanks for the advice everyone. Its difficult for a guy in his forties to admit this is happening, he feels really dumb. What about throwing things, is that common/acceptable for women to do in relationships?
I guess I'm the only one on here, but I've thrown things before in frustration, just not in the context of a romantic relationship. I threw my cell phone down on the ground once in a fit of postpartum frustration after my baby had been crying for hours. I've probably thrown other things before. I'm not proud of it, but I am not an abuser. I would be interested in someone weighing in who has training in abuse. Can someone be a thrower without being an abuser? If not, I am rather worried about what rests beneath my psychological surface.
I would take a much harder line about the physical violence rather than the throwing, although throwing something across the room could inadvertently cause physical violence. Say you marry this woman and you and she are in a fight. Perhaps she throws something and a kid walks in the room and gets hit.
Do you think counseling could solve her anger issues?
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Regarding the physical abuse --- I don't see that as a big a deal as the psychological abuse. Being whopped by a woman or locked in the basement is not that bad in the scope of things. But constant control issues coupled with random intermittent psycho episodes would make it difficult to love someone. The Harley method essentially gives you a guide for faking it till you make it. Once you give the love the SO will likely return the love in a manner that makes you fall madly in love with them.
I'm going to disagree a little. If you've ever been hit by a heavy object swung by a woman, you'll find it hurts quite a lot. And it can be very unnerving to sleep while you're considering that she might very well attack you as you sleep.
Depending on where you hit, it does not always take a lot of force to cause a lot of damage. I've learned to fight men and as a 5'2 woman who was a much smaller girl while learning, I know how to damage someone a great deal. Please don't stay in that kind of situation.
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It hasn't suddenly happened. Its happened before and after the last time of this big of a blow up, he said to himself that if it happened again he would break up with her. That was about 6 months ago. There tends to be about one really stressful argument each week, always, with her indicating he has done/said something wrong.
Things have been pretty bad for the last three weeks before this. One thought is that its just a stressful/difficult time for her and she'll get passed it.
That's why the question was asked here. Is this normal, or is it a bigger problem? That said, I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
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Thanks for the advice everyone. Its difficult for a guy in his forties to admit this is happening, he feels really dumb. What about throwing things, is that common/acceptable for women to do in relationships?
I guess I'm the only one on here, but I've thrown things before in frustration, just not in the context of a romantic relationship. I threw my cell phone down on the ground once in a fit of postpartum frustration after my baby had been crying for hours. I've probably thrown other things before. I'm not proud of it, but I am not an abuser. I would be interested in someone weighing in who has training in abuse. Can someone be a thrower without being an abuser? If not, I am rather worried about what rests beneath my psychological surface.
I would take a much harder line about the physical violence rather than the throwing, although throwing something across the room could inadvertently cause physical violence. Say you marry this woman and you and she are in a fight. Perhaps she throws something and a kid walks in the room and gets hit.
Do you think counseling could solve her anger issues?
I do have some training in it. I did my undergrad in psych and did volunteer work at an abused women's shelter, which is where the majority of my training comes from. Women are more likely to throw things then men, who often hit an object. However, the majority do escalate to harming. This is not always but I personally would speak to a counselor. It may have been a reaction to the hormones after postpartum and stress, but I can't say that. Could it come to a point where you are under this level of stress again? That is a question I can't answer. But, you have one positive, you do realize that throwing things could cause damage, that is a positive.
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It hasn't suddenly happened. Its happened before and after the last time of this big of a blow up, he said to himself that if it happened again he would break up with her. That was about 6 months ago. There tends to be about one really stressful argument each week, always, with her indicating he has done/said something wrong.
Things have been pretty bad for the last three weeks before this. One thought is that its just a stressful/difficult time for her and she'll get passed it.
That's why the question was asked here. Is this normal, or is it a bigger problem? That said, I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
The problem is that reacting to stress by lashing out is not ok. And once she has done it once, often it gets worse. I personally would not want to risk it. Those who do often end up a lot more harmed because it escalates.
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It hasn't suddenly happened. Its happened before and after the last time of this big of a blow up, he said to himself that if it happened again he would break up with her. That was about 6 months ago. There tends to be about one really stressful argument each week, always, with her indicating he has done/said something wrong.
Things have been pretty bad for the last three weeks before this. One thought is that its just a stressful/difficult time for her and she'll get passed it.
That's why the question was asked here. Is this normal, or is it a bigger problem? That said, I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
Now I'm confused. This whole time you've framed this as "your friend" but at the end you of this quoted part you state "I'm not perfect". It really doesn't matter if it's you or a friend, I wouldn't change my advice.
You teach people how to treat you. If they abuse you and you take it, they will keep doing it. If you stand up for yourself it likely won't stop due to the years of history. This relationship needs to end to be fixed.
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It hasn't suddenly happened. Its happened before and after the last time of this big of a blow up, he said to himself that if it happened again he would break up with her. That was about 6 months ago. There tends to be about one really stressful argument each week, always, with her indicating he has done/said something wrong.
Things have been pretty bad for the last three weeks before this. One thought is that its just a stressful/difficult time for her and she'll get passed it.
That's why the question was asked here. Is this normal, or is it a bigger problem? That said, I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
This is not a healthy situation. Maybe it is her normal, but her behaviors are not healthy and are part of a bigger problem. Without counseling and a specific effort from her to change how she deals with stress and anger, the violence will likely escalate further in a cyclical way.
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It hasn't suddenly happened. Its happened before and after the last time of this big of a blow up, he said to himself that if it happened again he would break up with her. That was about 6 months ago. There tends to be about one really stressful argument each week, always, with her indicating he has done/said something wrong.
Things have been pretty bad for the last three weeks before this. One thought is that its just a stressful/difficult time for her and she'll get passed it.
That's why the question was asked here. Is this normal, or is it a bigger problem? That said, I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
This is absolutely NOT normal. Please try to end the relationship ASAP.
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Whether you stay in this relationship will come down to if you perceive the benefits outweigh the problems. I have friends in similar situations that chose to remain and just deal with it. (see below for a recommendation on dealing from your end)
The problem for most of them is the unknown after the spilt. Dating and finding a suitable future mate. It could end up miraculously great, but the reality is that there just aren't that many 40ish single women out there who are great people, nice looking, in good health, with good incomes and spending histories that are also not on the psycho spectrum. If you want an independent one, finding one that would also want you might be very rare indeed. Most of the 40ish women will also come with baggage of kids and divorces. One has to ask if a woman is 40ish, has no kids, never been married and has all these great attributes, why that just doesn't add up?
Probably only 7% of the female population falls into your desired age category. Of that maybe 80% are in relationships. So you are down to around one in 100-200 being available. Of those maybe 10% meet the above criteria. So you're looking at maybe 1 in a thousand. Add that she also has to be into you and the odds get very close to zero. (sorry to be such a downer here)
Regarding the physical abuse --- I don't see that as a big a deal as the psychological abuse. Being whopped by a woman or locked in the basement is not that bad in the scope of things.
Did you really just argue that an abusive relationship is better than no relationship at all? Really?
Did you also just argue that being locked in a basement is no big deal?
I feel like I'm in some other dimension reading this post.
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Whether you stay in this relationship will come down to if you perceive the benefits outweigh the problems. I have friends in similar situations that chose to remain and just deal with it. (see below for a recommendation on dealing from your end)
The problem for most of them is the unknown after the spilt. Dating and finding a suitable future mate. It could end up miraculously great, but the reality is that there just aren't that many 40ish single women out there who are great people, nice looking, in good health, with good incomes and spending histories that are also not on the psycho spectrum. If you want an independent one, finding one that would also want you might be very rare indeed. Most of the 40ish women will also come with baggage of kids and divorces. One has to ask if a woman is 40ish, has no kids, never been married and has all these great attributes, why that just doesn't add up?
Probably only 7% of the female population falls into your desired age category. Of that maybe 80% are in relationships. So you are down to around one in 100-200 being available. Of those maybe 10% meet the above criteria. So you're looking at maybe 1 in a thousand. Add that she also has to be into you and the odds get very close to zero. (sorry to be such a downer here)
Regarding the physical abuse --- I don't see that as a big a deal as the psychological abuse. Being whopped by a woman or locked in the basement is not that bad in the scope of things.
Did you really just argue that an abusive relationship is better than no relationship at all? Really?
Did you also just argue that being locked in a basement is no big deal?
I feel like I'm in some other dimension reading this post.
hm... yeah, I'm a bit confused as well, and wondering who he has in his basement locked up?... nah, jk but still confused how this is not a big deal
OP on the money side, can't he just get a roommate if he wants to split living costs with someone?
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I think that the relationship should be ended.
That said, if your friend does decide to work on it - he should only agree to the counseling option if she moves out. They can consider moving in again in the future, when things are less volatile - if the relationship survives.
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I just assumed the OP was speaking in the second person but was actually referring to himself.
I do have some training in it. I did my undergrad in psych and did volunteer work at an abused women's shelter, which is where the majority of my training comes from. Women are more likely to throw things then men, who often hit an object. However, the majority do escalate to harming. This is not always but I personally would speak to a counselor. It may have been a reaction to the hormones after postpartum and stress, but I can't say that. Could it come to a point where you are under this level of stress again? That is a question I can't answer. But, you have one positive, you do realize that throwing things could cause damage, that is a positive.
Interesting. Thanks. Can I push you a bit though? By working at an abused women's shelter, you encountered those that did escalate to harming. In that sense, there might be some selective bias going on.
Life with young children is stressful, so, yes, of course I could encounter this kind of stress again. I am aware of my failings and proclivities (i.e. I let frustration build and then it can explode), but I've just never thought of myself as someone who is any more prone to violence than the next person. I think of my past couple throwing experiences along the same lines as someone who cuts - the pressure in your noggin is so profound that you find a way to outwardly express your inner turmoil. Would you say a cutter is someone more prone to violence as a whole?
I guess my question is - for those of us who might struggle with anger/depression issues - are we all just one step away from becoming Ray Rice/Susan Smith/insert violent abuser or murderer? Based on the responses to the OP, it appears that is the overall perception.
I had a friend whose husband once punched a hole in the wall. This was before they had four kids. Now they have a terrible marriage (hence why he punched the wall in the first place), but in the 15 years since he did that, he has never raised a hand to her or the children. In his case, it appears to not have been a sign of his pending abuse.
I guess this thread has really bothered me, in that I think some of the responses have been pretty extreme. Has what she has done really reached the level of a restraining order or that the person should fear for his life? I'm not saying it couldn't, but thankfully it hasn't reached that level. What she is doing is no doubt unacceptable, but I balk at the thought that she is a psycho, beyond redemption, or someone that no healthy person should be around.
Having said that, this doesn't sound like a healthy relationship. You have indicated that this isn't a one time thing, and if this was something that you had previously said would lead to you initiating a break-up then I would probably follow through. Just because she can be saved through counseling or other measures doesn't mean that you have to stay in the relationship or help her through her issues.
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In addition to the above advice you might get a nanny-cam or similar to record what happens when you break up with her. I think there is even a phone app for abused women that will record sound and video of an incident.
As others have mentioned since she pays rent, she is definitely a tenant. Find out what you'll need to do to legally evict her if it comes to that before you have the break-up conversation.
If you were married with three kids it might be worth exploring anger management counseling. But dating and even living together is to find out if you're a match. In this case, you aren't.
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I just assumed the OP was speaking in the second person but was actually referring to himself.
I do have some training in it. I did my undergrad in psych and did volunteer work at an abused women's shelter, which is where the majority of my training comes from. Women are more likely to throw things then men, who often hit an object. However, the majority do escalate to harming. This is not always but I personally would speak to a counselor. It may have been a reaction to the hormones after postpartum and stress, but I can't say that. Could it come to a point where you are under this level of stress again? That is a question I can't answer. But, you have one positive, you do realize that throwing things could cause damage, that is a positive.
Interesting. Thanks. Can I push you a bit though? By working at an abused women's shelter, you encountered those that did escalate to harming. In that sense, there might be some selective bias going on.
Life with young children is stressful, so, yes, of course I could encounter this kind of stress again. I am aware of my failings and proclivities (i.e. I let frustration build and then it can explode), but I've just never thought of myself as someone who is any more prone to violence than the next person. I think of my past couple throwing experiences along the same lines as someone who cuts - the pressure in your noggin is so profound that you find a way to outwardly express your inner turmoil. Would you say a cutter is someone more prone to violence as a whole?
I guess my question is - for those of us who might struggle with anger/depression issues - are we all just one step away from becoming Ray Rice/Susan Smith/insert violent abuser or murderer? Based on the responses to the OP, it appears that is the overall perception.
I had a friend whose husband once punched a hole in the wall. This was before they had four kids. Now they have a terrible marriage (hence why he punched the wall in the first place), but in the 15 years since he did that, he has never raised a hand to her or the children. In his case, it appears to not have been a sign of his pending abuse.
I guess this thread has really bothered me, in that I think some of the responses have been pretty extreme. Has what she has done really reached the level of a restraining order or that the person should fear for his life? I'm not saying it couldn't, but thankfully it hasn't reached that level. What she is doing is no doubt unacceptable, but I balk at the thought that she is a psycho, beyond redemption, or someone that no healthy person should be around.
Having said that, this doesn't sound like a healthy relationship. You have indicated that this isn't a one time thing, and if this was something that you had previously said would lead to you initiating a break-up then I would probably follow through. Just because she can be saved through counseling or other measures doesn't mean that you have to stay in the relationship or help her through her issues.
It is possible, which is why I said that you should see a counselor not rely on someone online. But no, once someone has lashed out at another person, I do think the person who has attacked should be removed. They can get help, but the stats are that those who will abuse start small and I don't think the risk is worth it. I understand you sitting there going but that is not me, because I have a very bad temper. I had to learn to control it because yes, those of us who would lash out in response to a temper are at risk of being abusers. And I would say someone who cuts is likely to self-harm again.
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I would run and not walk away -- however you can. At some point down the road, you will look at this story and realize the sheer insanity of it. There are places you can call for more hands on assistance regarding the best actions to take.
After you're on the other side of this relationship, I strongly suggest you get yourself some therapy. Why? My spiritual belief is that equals attract -- not opposites. No no NO, I'm NOT at all suggesting you're physically abusive or LIKE this other person. I AM suggesting there may be something going on within you that attracted this other person to you.
Therefore, get to know yourself and your thoughts better. Seek help in doing that. It will help get you closer to the positive life partner you're meant to be with.
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That shouldn't happen in relationships/this is not the normative. I am a female, in case that matters for your perspective, but behaving in this way towards my partner would seem cruel and wrong to me. Also, I have had people physically block my way before. I felt extremely threatened when that happened. And forcing someone to sleep with you... that sounds like a situation of emotional hostage (not to mention physical).
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Thanks for the advice everyone. Its difficult for a guy in his forties to admit this is happening, he feels really dumb. What about throwing things, is that common/acceptable for women to do in relationships?
I guess I'm the only one on here, but I've thrown things before in frustration, just not in the context of a romantic relationship. I threw my cell phone down on the ground once in a fit of postpartum frustration after my baby had been crying for hours. I've probably thrown other things before. I'm not proud of it, but I am not an abuser. I would be interested in someone weighing in who has training in abuse. Can someone be a thrower without being an abuser? If not, I am rather worried about what rests beneath my psychological surface.
I would take a much harder line about the physical violence rather than the throwing, although throwing something across the room could inadvertently cause physical violence. Say you marry this woman and you and she are in a fight. Perhaps she throws something and a kid walks in the room and gets hit.
Do you think counseling could solve her anger issues?
Ditto. In your situation, those are bad signs, the physical stuff, the not letting you have space or move?. But I have lost my temper, and yelled and even thrown things down out of frustration. I don't think I would ever hit someone or throw something at someone, but maybe I'm worse off than I thought? If I was in a position I didn't feel safe, or didn't feel I can trust the behavior of someone then that is where I would get out. The fact that she won't "let" you break up, is actually not a good sign.
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A lot of people have posted a lot more eloquent responses, but...seriously? After the series of incidents you just described you/he even have to ask the question? As someone just before me said, run, don't walk, as fast and as far as you can. Sorry he's in that situation, it's beyond tough, but time to get out before it gets any worse.
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Whether you stay in this relationship will come down to if you perceive the benefits outweigh the problems. I have friends in similar situations that chose to remain and just deal with it. (see below for a recommendation on dealing from your end)
The problem for most of them is the unknown after the spilt. Dating and finding a suitable future mate. It could end up miraculously great, but the reality is that there just aren't that many 40ish single women out there who are great people, nice looking, in good health, with good incomes and spending histories that are also not on the psycho spectrum. If you want an independent one, finding one that would also want you might be very rare indeed. Most of the 40ish women will also come with baggage of kids and divorces. One has to ask if a woman is 40ish, has no kids, never been married and has all these great attributes, why that just doesn't add up?
Probably only 7% of the female population falls into your desired age category. Of that maybe 80% are in relationships. So you are down to around one in 100-200 being available. Of those maybe 10% meet the above criteria. So you're looking at maybe 1 in a thousand. Add that she also has to be into you and the odds get very close to zero. (sorry to be such a downer here)
Regarding the physical abuse --- I don't see that as a big a deal as the psychological abuse. Being whopped by a woman or locked in the basement is not that bad in the scope of things.
Did you really just argue that an abusive relationship is better than no relationship at all? Really?
Did you also just argue that being locked in a basement is no big deal?
I feel like I'm in some other dimension reading this post.
hm... yeah, I'm a bit confused as well, and wondering who he has in his basement locked up?... nah, jk but still confused how this is not a big deal
OP on the money side, can't he just get a roommate if he wants to split living costs with someone?
Yes, I suppose I did argue that. I don't strive to be politically correct when asked for an honest opinion.
I suppose my advice comes from working in the psych field so long. On the family services side of things it is often the role of the state to keep families together when abuse has occurred, or at least reunite them. This came about because the outcomes are so poor with the foster family system that even an abusive history at home made for better outcomes than foster placement in general.]
So yeah, I do think the OP should have his friend try the Harley method as outlined in "His Needs, Her Needs"
The problem with the "Run Forest Run!" theory is that it doesn't generally work to well in reality. People in abusive relationships will generally end up in new abusive relationships if they leave.
So I'll stick to my guns. From what was suggested by the OP this isn't a situation that can't be changed. But the OP will need to be the one to implement a change strategy.
By the way, I've seen many people who have exhibited some of the negative behaviors noted by the OP that end up becoming very good parents and model spouses.
As at out of the box aside --- The largest an most frequent input into humans is the food they eat. Followed closely by TV. Believe me when I tell you that a diet high in junk food and wheat will have a different behavioral outcome than people eating lots of veggies, healthy meats/fish and healthy oils. Even weird things like red dye can result in behavior issues.
There is also the caffeine and booze effects. You didn't mention if booze was a factor as it often is in these situations. But many people do not realize that caffeine, birth control pills, and antidepressants can have a significant impact on peoples behaviors without anyone realizing this.
Does the GF drink more than one cup coffee per day? Does she take birth control? Is she on other medications? Is your diet generally a wheat based or veggie based diet? What TV shows are you watching? Crime shows tend to legitimize violent behavior while Antiques Roadshow just makes a person nerdier.
I'm not joking about these inputs. What are her inputs? It would be difficult to achieve a different outcome without changing the inputs. Something as simple as getting off birth control may have a huge effect on her personality.
If there is drinking involved, it should be cut drastically or all together.
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Wow, I can't believe the people suggesting that this person keep calm and evaluate the situation to try to work things out. This is 100% textbook abuser behavior, and this guy should be separating himself from contact with this person in any way he can. Just because you CAN tolerate something like this doesn't mean you SHOULD. Chances are this situation will only escalate, and if it gets to the breaking point you can bet your bottom dollar this woman will make it a legal and emotional bloodbath.
Document everything, lawyer up if separation is an issue, and escape by any means necessary.
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I am a long time member here but have created a new user name for this discussion, some may be able to guess why. I know there are a lot of smart and level headed people here that I hope can give me advice.
...he will loose [sic] the money she pays for rent and about half the food budget if she leaves. It won't break him, just slow his FI date. The relationship has always been both volatile and difficult and he doesn’t like that in general.
First of all, for fuck's sake, use the first person! I suspect this could be a clue as to why you are so frustrated and frustrating to be around. Stop hiding!
Next, stop using your GF to pay "her half" of expenses. Your attitude regarding your FI date, is fucked up, man. You could always get a roommate, for example. Sounds like you might consider her a revenue stream. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying you should support her, but the way you phrased this is seriously wrong. Besides, do you want to be FI and be miserable in your primary relationship?
Third, you've been together for four years and you live together. Is is possible that she has expectations of marriage that you are not fulfilling?
Please NOTE: I am not saying she's right or justifying her behavior in any way, I'm just wondering why she's acting this way now. There are always two sides...
Based on the info you've provided, I'd say you should leave this relationship. It isn't good for either of you. She is clearly as frustrated with the relationship as you are. You and she are not good for each other. End it in a respectable and equitable way. You will not regret it.
Finally, my parents are constant arguers. I hated it growing up and still do. I deliberately ended relationships that were too argumentative, because I didn't want to live my life that way. (I've kept in touch with a good number of them, and they all found partners to whom they were better suited. It was absolutely as much about "me" as it was "them".) I didn't think I'd ever get married, and was busily planning the rest of my life as a singleton. At 54, I started dating "the one". We've been happily married for two years now. We have weathered lots of life's storms without a single argument. I never imagined partnered life could be so good. It is absolutely worth holding out for the right person.
You can do this!
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I am a long time member here but have created a new user name for this discussion, some may be able to guess why. I know there are a lot of smart and level headed people here that I hope can give me advice.
...he will loose [sic] the money she pays for rent and about half the food budget if she leaves. It won't break him, just slow his FI date. The relationship has always been both volatile and difficult and he doesn’t like that in general.
Third, you've been together for four years and you live together. Is is possible that she has expectations of marriage that you are not fulfilling?
Please NOTE: I am not saying she's right or justifying her behavior in any way, I'm just wondering why she's acting this way now. There are always two sides...
Lol, wat!? I see you halfheartedly tried to qualify your statement, but seriously, who cares what her expectations are? She is a grown woman who can make her own choices in life, it doesn't even matter one iota what her expectations are. Like, if the genders were reversed, the OP was a female and the bf was being abusive because he thought his gf was withholding sex from the relationship would you ever DARE write something like "Is it possible he has expecations for sex X times/week that you are not fulfilling?" I highly doubt you would.
Whether you stay in this relationship will come down to if you perceive the benefits outweigh the problems. I have friends in similar situations that chose to remain and just deal with it. (see below for a recommendation on dealing from your end)
The problem for most of them is the unknown after the spilt. Dating and finding a suitable future mate. It could end up miraculously great, but the reality is that there just aren't that many 40ish single women out there who are great people, nice looking, in good health, with good incomes and spending histories that are also not on the psycho spectrum. If you want an independent one, finding one that would also want you might be very rare indeed. Most of the 40ish women will also come with baggage of kids and divorces. One has to ask if a woman is 40ish, has no kids, never been married and has all these great attributes, why that just doesn't add up?
Probably only 7% of the female population falls into your desired age category. Of that maybe 80% are in relationships. So you are down to around one in 100-200 being available. Of those maybe 10% meet the above criteria. So you're looking at maybe 1 in a thousand. Add that she also has to be into you and the odds get very close to zero. (sorry to be such a downer here)
Bob, I think you actually hit this situation right on the head, as this was my first thought regarding why the OP stays in the relationship. He is self-admittedly a 40-something male who is very inexperienced in relationships, and I'm sure he is worried about not having access to another woman for some time (maybe a very very long time) if he decides to pull the trigger and leave.
OP, first, I won't tell you what to do, but if you do decide to stay you have to give her an ultimatum that this behavior never happens again, and if it does you have to stick to your guns/record the incident/call the cops and kick her out. If you stay with her and you let this behavior continue then it will only get worse. She needs to realize she is at the end of her rope.
Second, really ask yourself WHY you want to stay? Is it because you truly, madly deeply love her and you 100% think she can change, or is it because you are fairly desperate for female attention/companionship and you are afraid of your prospects if you leave this relationship (for women reading this, let me tell you that A LOT of guys think this way, something most women don't understand for obvious reasons)? OP, I'll give you an easy scenario...Imagine if all of a sudden tomorrow you had 5 different smart, attractive, compatible women calling you and texting you to go on dates, have sex and to be in a relationship, would you still tolerate this behavior from your current gf? If the answer is a resounding NO (which it probably is) then you should ditch this relationship now.
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Like jka468, I often find it helpful to switch genders when this sort of thing gets confusing. Here's the story:
My friend got in a fight with her boyfriend, he pushed her against the wall and then locked her in the basement. She tried to break up with him but he refused to leave. That evening he followed her from bed to bed refusing to let her sleep alone.
If the above story is not okay that the original is also not okay.
I agree that abuse isn't always black and white and this situation is particularly complex, but he needs to get out of there. The house and job are fine to lose when you consider that he is risking his mental and physical health and maybe even police interference on her side if he stays.
** I didn't include throwing stuff in my summary. If I found out that Ghandi once threw his spinning wheel at a wall in anger it wouldn't change what I think of him. Breaking other people's things and throwing stuff at people is a different story.
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I am a long time member here but have created a new user name for this discussion, some may be able to guess why. I know there are a lot of smart and level headed people here that I hope can give me advice.
...he will loose [sic] the money she pays for rent and about half the food budget if she leaves. It won't break him, just slow his FI date. The relationship has always been both volatile and difficult and he doesn’t like that in general.
Third, you've been together for four years and you live together. Is is possible that she has expectations of marriage that you are not fulfilling?
Please NOTE: I am not saying she's right or justifying her behavior in any way, I'm just wondering why she's acting this way now. There are always two sides...
Lol, wat!? I see you halfheartedly tried to qualify your statement, but seriously, who cares what her expectations are? She is a grown woman who can make her own choices in life, it doesn't even matter one iota what her expectations are. Like, if the genders were reversed, the OP was a female and the bf was being abusive because he thought his gf was withholding sex from the relationship would you ever DARE write something like "Is it possible he has expecations for sex X times/week that you are not fulfilling?" I highly doubt you would.
You'd be wrong. Your example is a total non sequitur. And I wasn't being halfhearted at all. Her feelings do matter, even if she's acting extremely poorly. The OP chose to wrap his life with hers for four years. She deserves as much consideration as any other human being.
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Thank you to everyone for pointing out the realities of this situation. It's both sad and nauseating to realize these things but the comments and advice given here have really been helpful.
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You'd be wrong. Your example is a total non sequitur. And I wasn't being halfhearted at all. Her feelings do matter, even if she's acting extremely poorly. The OP chose to wrap his life with hers for four years. She deserves as much consideration as any other human being.
"Won't anyone think about the abuser's feelings?"
That's exactly how abusers get and maintain control. Reasoning with them only gives them leverage. What the OP described is a fucked up situation, and he (or his "friend" if we're still sticking to that story) needs to get out yesterday.
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I am a long time member here but have created a new user name for this discussion, some may be able to guess why. I know there are a lot of smart and level headed people here that I hope can give me advice.
...he will loose [sic] the money she pays for rent and about half the food budget if she leaves. It won't break him, just slow his FI date. The relationship has always been both volatile and difficult and he doesn’t like that in general.
Third, you've been together for four years and you live together. Is is possible that she has expectations of marriage that you are not fulfilling?
Please NOTE: I am not saying she's right or justifying her behavior in any way, I'm just wondering why she's acting this way now. There are always two sides...
Lol, wat!? I see you halfheartedly tried to qualify your statement, but seriously, who cares what her expectations are? She is a grown woman who can make her own choices in life, it doesn't even matter one iota what her expectations are. Like, if the genders were reversed, the OP was a female and the bf was being abusive because he thought his gf was withholding sex from the relationship would you ever DARE write something like "Is it possible he has expecations for sex X times/week that you are not fulfilling?" I highly doubt you would.
You'd be wrong. Your example is a total non sequitur. And I wasn't being halfhearted at all. Her feelings do matter, even if she's acting extremely poorly. The OP chose to wrap his life with hers for four years. She deserves as much consideration as any other human being.
It's really simple, please follow...Is she an adult? Oh, she is, okay. Can she choose to stay or go in this particular relationship any time she wants? Oh, she can, okay. Is OP required in any way to fulfill whatever expectations she may have? Oh, he isn't, ok.
Stop making excuses for the woman just because she is a woman. We don't even know what her expecations were, but even if they were marriage, picket fence, moving to Paris, ANYTHING, her behavior is disgusting because she is an adult and can ALWAYS willfully choose to leave and go try to find her fulfillment with anyone or anything else. The only way I would give you some merit here is if OP explicitly stated expecations for marriage in a certain timeframe and has continually backed out. That still wouldn't make the gf right, but it would be more understandable based on your example.
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I am a long time member here but have created a new user name for this discussion, some may be able to guess why. I know there are a lot of smart and level headed people here that I hope can give me advice.
...he will loose [sic] the money she pays for rent and about half the food budget if she leaves. It won't break him, just slow his FI date. The relationship has always been both volatile and difficult and he doesn’t like that in general.
Third, you've been together for four years and you live together. Is is possible that she has expectations of marriage that you are not fulfilling?
Please NOTE: I am not saying she's right or justifying her behavior in any way, I'm just wondering why she's acting this way now. There are always two sides...
Lol, wat!? I see you halfheartedly tried to qualify your statement, but seriously, who cares what her expectations are? She is a grown woman who can make her own choices in life, it doesn't even matter one iota what her expectations are. Like, if the genders were reversed, the OP was a female and the bf was being abusive because he thought his gf was withholding sex from the relationship would you ever DARE write something like "Is it possible he has expecations for sex X times/week that you are not fulfilling?" I highly doubt you would.
You'd be wrong. Your example is a total non sequitur. And I wasn't being halfhearted at all. Her feelings do matter, even if she's acting extremely poorly. The OP chose to wrap his life with hers for four years. She deserves as much consideration as any other human being.
It's really simple, please follow...Is she an adult? Oh, she is, okay. Can she choose to stay or go in this particular relationship any time she wants? Oh, she can, okay. Is OP required in any way to fulfill whatever expectations she may have? Oh, he isn't, ok.
Stop making excuses for the woman just because she is a woman. We don't even know what her expecations were, but even if they were marriage, picket fence, moving to Paris, ANYTHING, her behavior is disgusting because she is an adult and can ALWAYS willfully choose to leave and go try to find her fulfillment with anyone or anything else. The only way I would give you some merit here is if OP explicitly stated expecations for marriage in a certain timeframe and has continually backed out. That still wouldn't make the gf right, but it would be more understandable based on your example.
I have to add a +1 here. I was horrified by the OP, but this takes it to another level. It is completely wrong to abuse someone no matter the genders involved. I am disgusted by those saying that he should look at what he is doing wrong. Abuse is on the abuser.
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Whether you stay in this relationship will come down to if you perceive the benefits outweigh the problems. I have friends in similar situations that chose to remain and just deal with it. (see below for a recommendation on dealing from your end)
The problem for most of them is the unknown after the spilt. Dating and finding a suitable future mate. It could end up miraculously great, but the reality is that there just aren't that many 40ish single women out there who are great people, nice looking, in good health, with good incomes and spending histories that are also not on the psycho spectrum. If you want an independent one, finding one that would also want you might be very rare indeed. Most of the 40ish women will also come with baggage of kids and divorces. One has to ask if a woman is 40ish, has no kids, never been married and has all these great attributes, why that just doesn't add up?
Probably only 7% of the female population falls into your desired age category. Of that maybe 80% are in relationships. So you are down to around one in 100-200 being available. Of those maybe 10% meet the above criteria. So you're looking at maybe 1 in a thousand. Add that she also has to be into you and the odds get very close to zero. (sorry to be such a downer here)
Regarding the physical abuse --- I don't see that as a big a deal as the psychological abuse. Being whopped by a woman or locked in the basement is not that bad in the scope of things.
Did you really just argue that an abusive relationship is better than no relationship at all? Really?
Did you also just argue that being locked in a basement is no big deal?
I feel like I'm in some other dimension reading this post.
hm... yeah, I'm a bit confused as well, and wondering who he has in his basement locked up?... nah, jk but still confused how this is not a big deal
OP on the money side, can't he just get a roommate if he wants to split living costs with someone?
Yes, I suppose I did argue that. I don't strive to be politically correct when asked for an honest opinion.
I suppose my advice comes from working in the psych field so long. On the family services side of things it is often the role of the state to keep families together when abuse has occurred, or at least reunite them. This came about because the outcomes are so poor with the foster family system that even an abusive history at home made for better outcomes than foster placement in general.]
So yeah, I do think the OP should have his friend try the Harley method as outlined in "His Needs, Her Needs"
The problem with the "Run Forest Run!" theory is that it doesn't generally work to well in reality. People in abusive relationships will generally end up in new abusive relationships if they leave.
So I'll stick to my guns. From what was suggested by the OP this isn't a situation that can't be changed. But the OP will need to be the one to implement a change strategy.
By the way, I've seen many people who have exhibited some of the negative behaviors noted by the OP that end up becoming very good parents and model spouses.
As at out of the box aside --- The largest an most frequent input into humans is the food they eat. Followed closely by TV. Believe me when I tell you that a diet high in junk food and wheat will have a different behavioral outcome than people eating lots of veggies, healthy meats/fish and healthy oils. Even weird things like red dye can result in behavior issues.
There is also the caffeine and booze effects. You didn't mention if booze was a factor as it often is in these situations. But many people do not realize that caffeine, birth control pills, and antidepressants can have a significant impact on peoples behaviors without anyone realizing this.
Does the GF drink more than one cup coffee per day? Does she take birth control? Is she on other medications? Is your diet generally a wheat based or veggie based diet? What TV shows are you watching? Crime shows tend to legitimize violent behavior while Antiques Roadshow just makes a person nerdier.
I'm not joking about these inputs. What are her inputs? It would be difficult to achieve a different outcome without changing the inputs. Something as simple as getting off birth control may have a huge effect on her personality.
If there is drinking involved, it should be cut drastically or all together.
But the OP and his GF aren't a family. They have no dependents. They are not married. They are both able bodied, gainfully employed adults capable of supporting themselves without each other. There is no need for them to be together.
As for your argument that the OP may be more statistically likely to get into another relationship where he's abused that may be true. However, if he splits from this woman he trades a situation where he's 100% guarantee to be abused for a situation where he has a significant chance of not being abused. It seems like a pretty obvious choice to me.
As for changing her diet, that only works when the person wants to change. The OP hasn't mentioned anything with respect to whether this woman thinks her behaviour is a problem or whether she wants to change.
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whattodo: Please prepare yourself emotionally for the backlash from her once you make your intentions clearly known (namely you will not accept her disrespectful and abusive actions). I don't know if it is possible for both of you to amicably disagree and part ways without physical escalation. But if you feel your safety might be at risk, consider coordinating in advance and have some trusted contacts available (on speed dial), just in case. I am not making light of your experiences (emotional and physical abuse is never acceptable); I've been there and it was humbling, but with the pain came opportunities for self-reflection and awareness. You will become stronger and grow. :)
Consider reading these articles:
http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/?s=the+emotionally+abused+man
http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/how-to-find-a-good-therapist-if-you-are-involved-with-an-emotionally-abusive-woman/
http://www.shrink4men.com/
Bottom line, have this 'talk' sooner than later, just be aware it can easily escalate if both people are not respectful of boundaries. Good luck!
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...But the OP and his GF aren't a family. They have no dependents. They are not married. They are both able bodied, gainfully employed adults capable of supporting themselves without each other. There is no need for them to be together.
As for your argument that the OP may be more statistically likely to get into another relationship where he's abused that may be true. However, if he splits from this woman he trades a situation where he's 100% guarantee to be abused for a situation where he has a significant chance of not being abused. It seems like a pretty obvious choice to me.
As for changing her diet, that only works when the person wants to change. The OP hasn't mentioned anything with respect to whether this woman thinks her behaviour is a problem or whether she wants to change.
god, thank you. My thoughts exaclty.
If we are forced to stay together with someone we aren't even married to becuase the social workers think that's best for us. might as well shoot ourselves now.
This OP is a grown man and may act on his own free will, and we dont' even know why these two are together in the first place. It may not be for steller reasons. People often drift together because it's the easiest path.\
Years ago I worked with a woman who dated a man and, after a fairly brief time in my book (about 3 -4 months) she wanted them to go to a counselor. Because they weren't getting along. See, she had her own therapist. Then, her child had a therapist. And she didn't think that her boyfriend was all that much in their relationship so her first instinct was couples therapy.
So yeah, let's go to a counselor to continue a f'cked up relationship of short duration. I asked her at the time: why don't you just break up with him? Isn't this what dating IS, getting to know people and if you don't like them, you jettison that relationship?
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Call whatever local non-profit or government agency there is in your city that deals with domestic violence. They can provide you with information and probably the names of attorneys who are experienced with these cases. Or they may be able to walk you through a legal "stay away" order. This will also get your concerns "on the record." Put a lock on the door of the room you want to sleep in. As another person said above, do not give mixed signals. Do not sleep in the same bed. Do not go to any social events together. Be sure to change passwords, close credit cards and bank accounts if you have any joint finances. Finally, if she has a gun, I would seriously consider living elsewhere until she moves out.
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I'm usually pretty lenient about other people's behavior, but not this one. I'm with everyone else -- get out now. Sleep with one eye open, and get her out of the house. This is not okay and not normal and could turn dangerous.
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+1 to everyone who has called this out as abuse, and recommended getting out.
whattodo: A friend of mine (an actual friend, not me :) ) was in an abusive relationship, and she later shared that the hardest part for her was deciding that it had 'crossed the line' so that she was justified in leaving. Part of the whole mind-fuck of living with a controlling manipulator is that you end up by constantly trying to 'be fair' to them, and accommodate them.
But relationships are not equal opportunity employment situations. If it has stopped working *for you* then it has stopped working. You can end any relationship at any time for *any* reason. She can't complain about 'unfair dismissal', or insist on you holding up your end of any sort of bargain. Relationships are 'fire at will' situations.
If you're up late at night, turning to anonymous internet friends for help to try and decide if this relationship is bad enough to end? Yes, it is bad enough to end. Whether or not you decide it is "actually" abuse is not the issue - the issue is, do you want to live like this?
To borrow a relationship test from another site (the awesome Captain Awkward), How long could you be happy like this? If the situation does not change for another 6 months? 2 years? 5 years? How would you get out of it *then*? And, respectfully, if it's not acceptable for it to continue for another 2 years, then it is not acceptable NOW, and you need to have your ducks in a row NOW.
Even if you decide to stay, PLEASE sort the following out:
1. Make sure your finances are completely separate
2. Phone your lawyer about tenancy situation - how to evict, and any property claims she may have
3. Make sure your treasured valuables are secure
Know exactly what your legal situation is so that when you decide to pull the trigger on leaving, you can do so immediately. Because the person upthread who mentioned the most dangerous time being when a relationship was over? absolutely correct.
Do look up specifically men-focused domestic violence sites, but have a look at this page too. A (nother) friend of mine who just exited a relationship found it to be hugely illuminating:
http://www.sophieelliottfoundation.co.nz/Early_Signs.php
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I understand you sitting there going but that is not me, because I have a very bad temper. I had to learn to control it because yes, those of us who would lash out in response to a temper are at risk of being abusers.
I feel like you are contradicting yourself...on the one hand, you're saying that an abuser will never change, that people with violent impulses only escalate. On the other, you are saying "I have a temper and I learned to control it." I guess we can look at it as a general/statistical vs individual statement, but can't every hot-tempered person look at themselves through the individual lens and neglect the generalization and statistics?
Thanks for the advice everyone. Its difficult for a guy in his forties to admit this is happening, he feels really dumb. What about throwing things, is that common/acceptable for women to do in relationships?
I guess I'm the only one on here, but I've thrown things before in frustration, just not in the context of a romantic relationship. I threw my cell phone down on the ground once in a fit of postpartum frustration after my baby had been crying for hours. I've probably thrown other things before. I'm not proud of it, but I am not an abuser. I would be interested in someone weighing in who has training in abuse. Can someone be a thrower without being an abuser? If not, I am rather worried about what rests beneath my psychological surface.
I would take a much harder line about the physical violence rather than the throwing, although throwing something across the room could inadvertently cause physical violence. Say you marry this woman and you and she are in a fight. Perhaps she throws something and a kid walks in the room and gets hit.
Do you think counseling could solve her anger issues?
Ditto. In your situation, those are bad signs, the physical stuff, the not letting you have space or move?. But I have lost my temper, and yelled and even thrown things down out of frustration. I don't think I would ever hit someone or throw something at someone, but maybe I'm worse off than I thought? If I was in a position I didn't feel safe, or didn't feel I can trust the behavior of someone then that is where I would get out. The fact that she won't "let" you break up, is actually not a good sign.
I think it's one thing when you have an essentially a one-off event (or perhaps a short period in life) where your frustration gets the better of you and you take it out on objects, followed by a period of remorse and shame that this happened. I think it's entirely another when such behavior is a matter of course and you did it "because someone made you mad" and other blame-deflecting reasons. I think there's a world of difference.
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Here's what I think of the OP's situation. I feel pity for his partner, not hate. She's an abuser but I doubt she knows it. I don't think she actively seeks power over others. She has a juvenile mindset and was apparently never taught that tantrums are not ok. I expect if she even recognizes her strong reactions, she probably has a fixed mindset about it ("I'm hot-tempered/easily angered/sensitive/people suck") vs a growth mindset ("I need to learn to get a handle on myself when I get upset.") Ultimately, not a great person to tie your fortune to, so I second the advice to take steps to leave. I think she could learn to act differently, but I don't think she wants to, and as an adult no one can make her.
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Even if you decide to stay, PLEASE sort the following out:
1. Make sure your finances are completely separate
2. Phone your lawyer about tenancy situation - how to evict, and any property claims she may have
3. Make sure your treasured valuables are secure
Know exactly what your legal situation is so that when you decide to pull the trigger on leaving, you can do so immediately. Because the person upthread who mentioned the most dangerous time being when a relationship was over? absolutely correct.
I will add to the above list:
4. Make 1000% certain that you do not get this woman pregnant. If you sleep with her, use condoms or seriously consider a vasectomy. Those are the only 2 methods I know of that a man has control over. I don't have enough fingers or toes to count the number of babies that I know of who have been conceived when their parent's relationship was breaking down. It turns a messy situation into a complete disaster.
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^
Even if you decide to stay, PLEASE sort the following out:
1. Make sure your finances are completely separate
2. Phone your lawyer about tenancy situation - how to evict, and any property claims she may have
3. Make sure your treasured valuables are secure
Know exactly what your legal situation is so that when you decide to pull the trigger on leaving, you can do so immediately. Because the person upthread who mentioned the most dangerous time being when a relationship was over? absolutely correct.
I will add to the above list:
4. Make 1000% certain that you do not get this woman pregnant. If you sleep with her, use condoms or seriously consider a vasectomy. Those are the only 2 methods I know of that a man has control over. I don't have enough fingers or toes to count the number of babies that I know of who have been conceived when their parent's relationship was breaking down. It turns a messy situation into a complete disaster.
^ +1 billion!
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Here's what I think of the OP's situation. I feel pity for his partner, not hate. She's an abuser but I doubt she knows it. I don't think she actively seeks power over others. She has a juvenile mindset and was apparently never taught that tantrums are not ok. I expect if she even recognizes her strong reactions, she probably has a fixed mindset about it ("I'm hot-tempered/easily angered/sensitive/people suck") vs a growth mindset ("I need to learn to get a handle on myself when I get upset.")
+ 1
If she's an adult and she's behaving like this, it's because no one has gotten through to her that this behaviour is not OK. OP confirms that she has behaved in similar ways before without serious consequences. So my recommendations for anyone in this position are, in order: ensure your physical safety - let the other person know that physical intimidation is not OK. If it happens again, say 'I am leaving because I don't feel safe'; stay with a friend or in a hotel for a few days; open a dialogue about the situation; be clear about what it would take for you to live under the same roof again; announce that you will call the police if your partner threatens violence; CALL THE POLICE IF YOU FEEL PHYSICALLY UNSAFE. You have to follow through with this - remember no one's actually given this person this message before and you have to show that you mean it.
Secondly, start reading here: http://www.marriageadvocates.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/42355/Topic_3_Stop_the_Bullying_Buil#Post42355 and follow as many of the links in the opening post as you can get through. This is not for her or for your relationship with her; it's for you and any relationship you have in the future, either with her or another person. You never know - once she understands that her partner is serious about not putting up with this behaviour, she could change dramatically and the relationship could be transformed. I think a relationship of 4 years is worth putting some effort into. There are two opportunities here: to learn relationship skills and boundaries, and to help another person to develop relationship skills and boundaries.
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4. Make 1000% certain that you do not get this woman pregnant. If you sleep with her, use condoms or seriously consider a vasectomy. Those are the only 2 methods I know of that a man has control over. I don't have enough fingers or toes to count the number of babies that I know of who have been conceived when their parent's relationship was breaking down. It turns a messy situation into a complete disaster.
oh h*ll yes.
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It always amazes me how absolutely certain everyone is on how they would handle a situation like this when they've never personally experienced it. It's really easy for people to tell you what they would do when they've never been in a situation like this. That's not to say that most of the advice given here is not valid. However, in my personal experience, most people are not nearly as brave as they think they are when the figurative gun is to their head. Almost everyone here knows someone or is someone in a "problem" relationship. Why is that? The bottom line is that you never know how you will react until you find yourself in a situation like this.
Regardless of whether or not this is classic abuse, it appears as though this behavior has crossed a line in your mind that is a deal breaker. It seems like the purpose of your question is to validate your position and confirm that your feeling is correct. The reality is that you are the only person that knows the intimate details of this relationship and whether or not you think it is worth trying to save. If you have a feeling in your gut that you should get out then follow that intuition. Sometimes being "smart" leads you to believe that there is some logical way to work this out that will make everyone happy. There are no logical outcomes when it comes to people's emotions. Take it from a fellow "smart" guy who learned the hard way.
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I've been mulling this post all day, trying to find something helpful to say. I've been there. I spent three and a half years in college in a codependent, borderline abusive relationship. It was hard to leave as things got worse because I lost my friends over the relationship, leaving me with no choice but to stay with him (it felt like) because I had no one else to be my roommate & couldn't afford to rent on my own. Looking back, I can see how unhealthy things were at the time, but in the moment, it was so hard to get that perspective because most days I barely had the energy to live life, let alone be self aware.
See, I still don't know if I have anything helpful to say...
But I guess my feelings are don't feel stupid, or foolish, or be hard on yourself for ending up in this kind of relationship. Also, put the financials aside for the moment and just get out of the relationship. If you are on the path to FI you have the cushion to make do with higher expenses for a period of time while you get things back together.
I do think you need to leave. There were moments when I was in my relationship when I knew I needed to leave. But it is so hard. I totally get that. I hope you leave tonight, but if you don't, well, you don't. It's not easy to walk away, and you have my empathy for that. It's an awful, shitty, and exhausting situation to be in. It takes an incredible amount of self love and courage to leave, but I think you can do it. Sending you love and good vibes across the interwebs, OP. Hopefully that was a little bit helpful.
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One difficult part is they are both professionals and work in the same place. So involving police etc. could embarrass them both at work. I think he will have to just stand firm for a while and see how it goes.
It is not embarrassing. Domestic violence happens. A lot. There are crazy people in this world. Almost everyone is going to come across one of them eventually. It's just your turn to get the short straw.
I am not a professional, but here is one suggestion.
Get a witness if you can. Document anything you can think of, before you forget or whitewash it in your mind. Then try to find someone at work who you think will listen to you. They don't have to be in power, or able to fix it; they just need to listen. Someone who knows you both needs to know about this before anything worse happens. Ask to have a quick word with them. Talk to them honestly. Rehearse the facts if you have to, until you can tell it without becoming emotional - if you can't, write it down and place it in front of them. Then, call the police and report her behavior. Or a friend can do that for you. For every abuser there is a victim. It is not shameful - just your unlucky day.
Here is how mine went:
I kicked out an abusive co-worker/tenant recently. He was a friend of my boyfriend (well, not near the end, he wasn't). Near the end, I spoke with our civilian boss. I spoke to the tenant's military boss as well. Individually, so nobody could gang up. The bosses seemed taken aback when I told them what was happening. I think it helped that I was too exhausted to care anymore. I told them about the ongoing problems. I gave names of witnesses. I told them I had called the police, who did nothing (a common tale here, sadly). I told them that I was concerned the tenant would retaliate for imagined offenses by hurting me or my property, and that I wanted to inform them of the situation, as I felt it was affecting my work life - the tenant had become a bully toward me at work. I asked them if the agency provided any resources to help me. I thanked them for understanding, got back to work and made damn sure I was doing my job.
That co-worker is still working here, 10 months later, but the civilian bosses moved him to a different part of the office. They began watching him and immediately found other crimes. Unfortunately, he is military, so it's impossible to do anything without his chain of command. But a harsher punishment might incite retaliation anyway.
Yes, your abuser will talk. Word traveled fast, mostly because he complains loudly, so the whole office is aware. They hear his version of the story, but I guess it doesn't match his behavior... Other service members have been moving to my area, specifically because the abuser is not allowed there. It's not ideal, but I have emotional support from people I didn't even know until I was brave enough to talk. And they keep an eye on the guy.
Some people asked why I didn't report this sooner. I just said that I was afraid of retaliation. I didn't justify it beyond that. I figured that the people who would understand, wouldn't require any more explanation.
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In addition to some good advice you've already received, I have the sense that you are looking for a justification to break up. You don't need to have some sort of iron-clad reason to leave a relationship that isn't working for you. "I am no longer happy with this relationship" is a good reason all by itself. There doesn't have to be abuse or a restraining order for you to break up with her and you don't have to allow 2nd or 3rd chances, or get drawn into a debate about why your feelings are wrong.
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I didn't even read your post, and my answer is a resounding YES! If you have to post a question like that on a public internet board, then it's not working and you need to end it.
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OK, now I read your post. Of course you need to end it. The girlfriend is a complete psycho. Locking you in the basement is very scary. Get out now, and start documenting the abuse, because it sounds like she is trying to set you up to look like the abuser.
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Get out. Now.
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Once your "friend" has cleared out all of their most important stuff, they need to check into a hotel. Your friend is in an emotionally and physically abusive relationship. Once things have settled down, they should check out the book 'codependent no more.'
It's actually exactly the opposite. By late 30's single women start to outnumber single men. By 50's its 4 to 1. Sadly it's because men start dying. Also correlation is not causation. Emotionally healthy people probably choose to eat more healthy vegetables and watch less tv.
Also google "why I stayed"
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For OP (and anyone else interested in learning more about abuse/abusive relationships) - I really recommend Lundy Bancroft's 'Why Does He Do That?'. It really opened my eyes to how abuse works, and was intellectually interesting to read about dynamics of control in relationships, and conversely think about how I handle things in my own relationship.
One thing that people outside of the abusive relationship often think is 'Why didn't he/she leave? Why put up with the abuse?' And the answer is complicated, and includes factors like how the abuser often makes your life hell if they think you want to leave, threatens violence (& often acts violently), and generally makes you feel so bad about yourself that you don't think you deserve something better or you can find a better partner, and that maybe the whole situation is really your fault - if you just did x, y, z then it wouldn't be so bad (except the standards/things that set the abuser off keep growing), and then there are the cycles of good/bad times that give hope, and the proclamations that the abuse is coming from a place of love/really strong feelings, plus getting isolated from friends/family and their support.
What's really great, OP (even though I know probably nothing seems that way), is that you have separate finances and you alone own the home. You can take care of yourself financially. The choice of whether to leave (and whether you do that now or at a later time) is yours. Your girlfriend is definitely exhibiting abusive behavior - generally it's pretty rare that abusers change, but it can happen. I think it really depends on why your girlfriend is acting this way. Full stop, her behavior is completely unacceptable. On the other hand, when you are in one of your first relationships, or never learned how to have an adult, mature relationship - I think it's unfortunately easy to fall into bad patterns where you try to exert control over your partner in an unhealthy way. I have never been in an abusive relationship, but I didn't know how to be a good partner right away when I first started dating, and had to learn some things. So when I read Lundy's book, I recognized some of that desire for control in myself in my early dating days. In a situation like that, I think it's possible to change abusive behavior. Of course, you have to remember that abusers set things up pretty well for themselves - they don't want to change their behavior and often need a sincere reason/bad consequence to do so (like the genuine statement of you leaving if they don't change) since they are benefiting from controlling their partner.
What do you want from your relationship? Do you want someone who supports you, encourages you, makes you be better at what you do and pursue more opportunities? Do you want someone you laugh with, who makes you feel amazing about your body (and what it can do ;))? Do you want someone else who is looking out for you, who want you to have all the best experiences? Because that is what I (and lots of people) have, and I promise we are not anomalies or supernatural beings. Do you enjoy fighting every week? Do you feel happy when you see your partner? Is your life better for having them in it? If not, you don't need any more of a reason to end things and move on. Seriously, people break up all the time, even when there is no abuse, if they're not happy. You can have an incredibly happy life with a partner (if that's what you want), why do you want to be with your girlfriend if it entails so much stress and unhappiness?
The choice is absolutely yours to make, and best of luck!
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I'm telling you from first hand experience that you need to get out asap. If you stick around and try to end it slowly and nicely, its going to get worse and will possibly involve the cops and the courts. Your girlfriend is in denial and doesn't really believe that you are going to leave her.
If you can not safely get her to leave, you need to get out and call the cops before its too late.
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Can it really be that I am the *only* person who thinks the OP is the girlfriend and not the guy?! How has no one else drawn that conclusion???
@whattodo: If I'm correct that you are the girlfriend and not the boyfriend, the answers here from everyone else make it clear that you need to find a way to keep your anger under control. You'll be hard-pressed to keep any relationship if you can't find a way to deal with it constructively. Any relationship that continued with this kind of anger would clearly be destructive and dysfunctional. Best wishes, I'll be rooting for you to figure it out somehow.
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All the advice is accurate, except I would add this: Do the breakup methodically. Move anything of value out of your house and into storage to protect it. Go get advice from a family law attorney to make sure you don't have any common law marriage issues since she is living with you. Don't give her any indication this is going on until you're ready to break the news.
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You are in a toxic and abusive relationship. You need to get out ASAP. Period. The question is how. I agree with other people posting that you should get legal advise and untangle yourself now. There should never be room for abuse in any relationship. Just be cautious while you proceed. I wish you the best. This is a tough situation.
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For OP (and anyone else interested in learning more about abuse/abusive relationships) - I really recommend Lundy Bancroft's 'Why Does He Do That?'. It really opened my eyes to how abuse works, and was intellectually interesting to read about dynamics of control in relationships, and conversely think about how I handle things in my own relationship.
One thing that people outside of the abusive relationship often think is 'Why didn't he/she leave? Why put up with the abuse?' And the answer is complicated, and includes factors like how the abuser often makes your life hell if they think you want to leave, threatens violence (& often acts violently), and generally makes you feel so bad about yourself that you don't think you deserve something better or you can find a better partner, and that maybe the whole situation is really your fault - if you just did x, y, z then it wouldn't be so bad (except the standards/things that set the abuser off keep growing), and then there are the cycles of good/bad times that give hope, and the proclamations that the abuse is coming from a place of love/really strong feelings, plus getting isolated from friends/family and their support.
What's really great, OP (even though I know probably nothing seems that way), is that you have separate finances and you alone own the home. You can take care of yourself financially. The choice of whether to leave (and whether you do that now or at a later time) is yours. Your girlfriend is definitely exhibiting abusive behavior - generally it's pretty rare that abusers change, but it can happen. I think it really depends on why your girlfriend is acting this way. Full stop, her behavior is completely unacceptable. On the other hand, when you are in one of your first relationships, or never learned how to have an adult, mature relationship - I think it's unfortunately easy to fall into bad patterns where you try to exert control over your partner in an unhealthy way. I have never been in an abusive relationship, but I didn't know how to be a good partner right away when I first started dating, and had to learn some things. So when I read Lundy's book, I recognized some of that desire for control in myself in my early dating days. In a situation like that, I think it's possible to change abusive behavior. Of course, you have to remember that abusers set things up pretty well for themselves - they don't want to change their behavior and often need a sincere reason/bad consequence to do so (like the genuine statement of you leaving if they don't change) since they are benefiting from controlling their partner.
What do you want from your relationship? Do you want someone who supports you, encourages you, makes you be better at what you do and pursue more opportunities? Do you want someone you laugh with, who makes you feel amazing about your body (and what it can do ;))? Do you want someone else who is looking out for you, who want you to have all the best experiences? Because that is what I (and lots of people) have, and I promise we are not anomalies or supernatural beings. Do you enjoy fighting every week? Do you feel happy when you see your partner? Is your life better for having them in it? If not, you don't need any more of a reason to end things and move on. Seriously, people break up all the time, even when there is no abuse, if they're not happy. You can have an incredibly happy life with a partner (if that's what you want), why do you want to be with your girlfriend if it entails so much stress and unhappiness?
The choice is absolutely yours to make, and best of luck!
+ 1 billion. Yes, this, exactly.
I lived in an abusive marriage for 16 years and it was a lot like living in a fun house of distorted mirrors. You have been systematically taught not to trust your judgment as to what's what. That's partly why you're posting here, looking for validation that you're not overreacting. I totally understand.
Of the 16 years I was married, it took me 7 years to figure out what the hell was going on and 3 more to figure out how to leave. Abusers can be really good at keeping you off balance.
Read this book mentioned above -- Why Does He Do That? -- don't be put off by the title (the author acknowledge abuse of men, too, but his primary audience is women). Here's a link to a free download of the book: http://www.mdjunction.com/forums/emotional-abuse-discussions/general-support/11107596-free-lundy-bancrofts-why-does-he-do-that-read-online (http://www.mdjunction.com/forums/emotional-abuse-discussions/general-support/11107596-free-lundy-bancrofts-why-does-he-do-that-read-online).
No kidding, read it ASAP. It is the playbook to her brain and you will be able to start predicting what she'll do next which helps you stay one step ahead while you get out.
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Can it really be that I am the *only* person who thinks the OP is the girlfriend and not the guy?! How has no one else drawn that conclusion???
@whattodo: If I'm correct that you are the girlfriend and not the boyfriend, the answers here from everyone else make it clear that you need to find a way to keep your anger under control. You'll be hard-pressed to keep any relationship if you can't find a way to deal with it constructively. Any relationship that continued with this kind of anger would clearly be destructive and dysfunctional. Best wishes, I'll be rooting for you to figure it out somehow.
Yeah, you may be right on that one. Good point.
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Something as simple as getting off birth control may have a huge effect on her personality.
For the love of all that is good and frugal, please do not stay in a relationship with her and try to fix it by having her get off her birth control, no matter what Bruce Willis says.
As for the possibility of the OP being the girlfriend in the scenario, I highly doubt that's the case but this is what I would say to her if that were true:
What you did is not okay. You have physically and psychologically hurt someone you care about. You need help via therapy to understand why you behaved this way and learn how to no longer behave this way. But you have to do it separate from the person you hurt. Move out immediately and tell him you need some time apart to work on yourself. Offer to pay a portion of your rent until he finds a new tenant and be polite but distant at work. Perhaps a long ways down the road, you two can have a harmonious relationship, but not right now.
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Something as simple as getting off birth control may have a huge effect on her personality.
For the love of all that is good and frugal, please do not stay in a relationship with her and try to fix it by having her get off her birth control, no matter what Bruce Willis says.
As for the possibility of the OP being the girlfriend in the scenario, I highly doubt that's the case but this is what I would say to her if that were true:
What you did is not okay. You have physically and psychologically hurt someone you care about. You need help via therapy to understand why you behaved this way and learn how to no longer behave this way. But you have to do it separate from the person you hurt. Move out immediately and tell him you need some time apart to work on yourself. Offer to pay a portion of your rent until he finds a new tenant and be polite but distant at work. Perhaps a long ways down the road, you two can have a harmonious relationship, but not right now.
You get a standing ovation for this post. Amen and done.
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This relationship needs to end. OP, I'm assuming you are the guy. This woman is bad news. Nobody should be abused and it doesn't matter if the abuser is male or female.
In my experience, good relationships are not drama-filled, unless both people enjoy drama. It doesn't sound like you do. If you don't, constant drama is nothing but a source of stress and life is to short to voluntarily add a bunch of stress.
The advice that you should consider staying with the abusive party because there aren't many available and perfect 40 year old women is beyond horrible. There are plenty of single women in their 40s.
While I think that getting counseling for yourself to deal with the abuser, what I would refuse to do is to go to couples counseling with this person. Abusers are experts in manipulation, and it's pretty common for them to gaslight you to get the counselor on their side.
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There are plenty of single women in their 40s.
Not to mention that there are plenty of women in their thirties who would be interested in an older man.
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There are plenty of single women in their 40s.
Not to mention that there are plenty of women in their thirties who would be interested in an older man.
Or women in their 50s who might be interested in a younger man.
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Regarding the physical abuse --- I don't see that as a big a deal as the psychological abuse. Being whopped by a woman or locked in the basement is not that bad in the scope of things. But constant control issues coupled with random intermittent psycho episodes would make it difficult to love someone. The Harley method essentially gives you a guide for faking it till you make it. Once you give the love the SO will likely return the love in a manner that makes you fall madly in love with them.
I'm going to disagree a little. If you've ever been hit by a heavy object swung by a woman, you'll find it hurts quite a lot. And it can be very unnerving to sleep while you're considering that she might very well attack you as you sleep.
I'm definitely with Spork on this one. Being whopped by a female can really hurt. I'm female, and I'll tell you that despite my not being large of stature, I continually surprise people by my strength and I have hugely surprised SO when I've given him a playful smack (as in, 'hands off the biscuits' or other tomfoolery) and accidenatlly it turned out to actually hurt. Big whoops. If I decided to actually lay into anyone ever, it wouldn't be pretty.
It is completely unacceptable behaviour to behave like the girlfriend in the OP, because it is completely unacceptable for ANYONE of EITHER gender to behave like this. Physical and emotional abuse is unacceptable within any relationship.
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Physical abuse is what it is. no excuses. get out of the relationship now. file a complaint with the police - you need this documented in case she's mad enough to start accusing you.
This happens A LOT! Abusers turn the police on their victims. Please cover your ass and take pictures and go to the police ASAP.
+100 billion [/dr evil]
I stopped reading after this comment. I can only assume the rest of the comments will also be unanimous. Dump that bitch, contact the police, and get her out of there as fast as possible.
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I also anticipate this happening:
Scene from seinfeld when george tries (unsuccessfully) to break up with maura.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fR0NheFPs
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ditto to all of the above who say END IT NOW. The fact that you are both professional etc. etc. is no reason at all to allow yourself to remain in this situation one second more. Your partner is abusive, physically and mentally, and you need to go stay with friends and take the appropriate actions (this is a creature of state law and will differ from state to state) to remove her from your home, then change the locks and do not see her again. You have nothing to be ashamed about here, you know. Safety first, dude. Get out, get her out, then get on with your life. I'm sorry you are having to deal with this; it's a brain fuck. Good luck.
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Just wanted to add my voice to the chorus suggesting you leave or have her/him leave, immediately. What you have described is not acceptable behavior for any partner of any gender in any relationship at any time. Normally I wouldn't post in a thread like this because the advice is so obvious but it seems like you are looking for support and justification so the volume of responses might help you take action? Do it, really -- you posted your dilemma two days ago and you should have been gone, like, yesterday already. Take action, take care of yourself and stop worrying about this person. They're clearly not at all worried about you.
Lots of other good advice from other members re: what to do after splitting. But take that first step as soon as you possibly can - stay with a friend, move into a hotel, call the police to get him/her out of your house, whatever. I wouldn't stay with this person a single additional night. Relationships like this are irredeemable.
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Whether you stay in this relationship will come down to if you perceive the benefits outweigh the problems. I have friends in similar situations that chose to remain and just deal with it. (see below for a recommendation on dealing from your end)
The problem for most of them is the unknown after the spilt. Dating and finding a suitable future mate. It could end up miraculously great, but the reality is that there just aren't that many 40ish single women out there who are great people, nice looking, in good health, with good incomes and spending histories that are also not on the psycho spectrum. If you want an independent one, finding one that would also want you might be very rare indeed. Most of the 40ish women will also come with baggage of kids and divorces. One has to ask if a woman is 40ish, has no kids, never been married and has all these great attributes, why that just doesn't add up?
Probably only 7% of the female population falls into your desired age category. Of that maybe 80% are in relationships. So you are down to around one in 100-200 being available. Of those maybe 10% meet the above criteria. So you're looking at maybe 1 in a thousand. Add that she also has to be into you and the odds get very close to zero. (sorry to be such a downer here)
I would also suggest you read Harley's book or web site titled "His Needs, Her Needs." If you follow his recommendations for what "you" should do, I have found that "her" actions will become much more in line with what you want. I would give the Harley method a college try for 3-6 months and keep detailed notes. You see, by changing your behaviors it automatically changes the other persons.
Under no circumstance should you marry this person. And I mean at least until there is 3 or 4 years of peace and joy.
Regarding the physical abuse --- I don't see that as a big a deal as the psychological abuse. Being whopped by a woman or locked in the basement is not that bad in the scope of things. But constant control issues coupled with random intermittent psycho episodes would make it difficult to love someone. The Harley method essentially gives you a guide for faking it till you make it. Once you give the love the SO will likely return the love in a manner that makes you fall madly in love with them.
So my answer after all said above is to --- Buy the Harley book --"His Needs, Her Needs" and follow it to a T.
Good luck our friend!
Are you effing kidding me???? Do not listen to this.
You do not stay with someone who pushes you around and locks you in the basement.
I especially don't give a fuck what it does to your FI date.
You do not take abuse.
Get a restraining order. Contact the police. Get a lawyer. Inform hr at work.
Get your life back and get some safety.
Then. We will talk about future romance. First clean up this horrible situation. There are many fine people to meet.
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The more I think about this, the more I think this is wrong on so many levels. A "lovely woman" doesn't do what she does. She is an abuser, emotionally and physically. You need to get out of this relationship now.
I agree with the other posters that you need to be careful that she does not accuse you of being an abuser, that you need to secure your valuables, get that psycho removed from your house and change the locks. This woman sounds capable of anything, not because she "cares so much" but because she is abusive.
Get out NOW! There is no question that she needs to go.
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Wow... There are so many problems there. She is parroting the same things guys say when they give excuses for beating their wives and girlfriends. Unfortunately, your friend will find it just as tough to leave as a woman would in the same situation. Physical abuse is only the most visible sign. The emotional abuse is far, far worse.
I would suggest at the very least a restraining order and most definitely end the relationship. There is no excuse for one partner in a relationship abusing the other.
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When I saw the topic, I thought it would be another "my gf wants to spend all of our money" posts. Otherwise, I would have chimed in earlier!
Obviously, in the situation presented, the woman is abusive. It's probably about 50/50 whether she will try to maintain the relationship by swinging the complete opposite direction and becoming the perfect girlfriend for a while or going total batshit crazy and trying to scare you into staying. I'd vote for perfect girlfriend with apologies, sweetness, and calm behavior for a period of time...at least until she gets too stressed and he does something that's not quite right and makes her hurt him again. It doesn't surprise me she seems lovely in every other way. It really is classic abuser behavior. Following him to bed is likely an attempt to reestablish closeness, intimacy, and a sense of connectedness as opposed to trying to be creepy weird and threatening.
I do have some experience in counseling, but I don't specialize in DV. For what it is worth, I would recommend you end the relationship. Recommend she get counseling but to help herself not salvage the relationship. From friends I know who do specialize in DV, don't count on a fix. Changing patterns of behavior like this, which are probably ingrained from early experiences, takes lots of time and effort. A trip to a therapist for a couple weeks isn't going to cut it. Sometimes going to counseling is just another ploy used by an abusive person. "You have to stay, see I'm trying to make myself better because I love you so much."
Take the time to prepare yourself for the exit. Talk to a lawyer about how to get her physically out of your house. Document everything that has happened. Hide the valuables. Expect that you will probably lose friends and work relationships because of this. Do all that and then steel yourself against the onslaught of guilt, love, and promises that will likely be coming your way. In the end, you will be better for it.
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As many have said, you have to end it now, taking the safety and security measures--the legal steps, etc.--as advised. Just. End. It. Close the garage door on that relationship and don't look back. I am posting this just to help add weight of numbers to your decision. Don't feel bad about it or ashamed…abusers are very manipulative, and it can happen. A guy in his 40's is in the prime of life, and my best bet is that there is a nice person out there for you--someone whom you can have a very pleasant and happy day-to-day life with--and love and romance, too--, someone who will breathe out when you breathe in and vice versa, someone who--when the two of you are together--resonates with you and vice versa so that the "us" of your relationship is greater than the sum of the two parts.Someone who truly cares about you, is interested in you, and wants the best for you, and will help you achieve your dreams. How do I know this? Because I took a hike away from an abuser and met a guy who changed my world from black and white to technicolor. I wouldn't trade one day of our 20-year relationship, and if it could happen to me (at 46 the last thing I thought could happen was a happy, flaming romance and a long-term marriage)…it could happen to you. Like the commercial on TV says, "Because you're worth it."
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MMMMM...she sounds sexy. Bet she's good in the sack! LMAO
This is why you don't move in with someone who you are only dating!
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MMMMM...she sounds sexy. Bet she's good in the sack! LMAO
This is why you don't move in with someone who you are only dating!
Yeah, it would be so much better if he had to initiate divorce proceedings instead!
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MMMMM...she sounds sexy. Bet she's good in the sack! LMAO
This is why you don't move in with someone who you are only dating!
Yeah, it would be so much better if he had to initiate divorce proceedings instead!
They're not married!
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MMMMM...she sounds sexy. Bet she's good in the sack! LMAO
This is why you don't move in with someone who you are only dating!
Yeah, it would be so much better if he had to initiate divorce proceedings instead!
They're not married!
You're saying they should have married before moving in and that would have made it better!
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Please end it before we read your obituary. Because that's what could happen.
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You need to get out.
Pack a bag and sleep on a friends couch/your car/a motel.
Speak to a lawyer about how to evict her. She may of course take you to court if you didn't sign a pre-cohabiation agreement. But she still has to leave your house. So get her out. In my country it's 60 days notice to roommates who don't have a signed agreement. Maybe it's similar where you are from. If that's the case, wait it out and then pay someone to forcibly evict her.
Keep it civil as you work together. Let your work know you'd like to switch teams (if you're in the same team), they are likely to accommodate it as they want good work out of you. If you're able to take a period of annual leave or unpaid leave, now may be a good time to do so, as you're unlikely to be able to work in a satisfactory manner with this stress in your life and you don't want to output unsatisfactory work and put your job on the line (I'm assuming it's not a McJob here).
Be kind to yourself.
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Agree with everyone who has encouraged you to get help leaving the relationship. It is very worrying to say the least. Can you post an update on how you are doing?
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He should start to do things that will make her want to leave. Don't flush the toilet again EVER. Stop personal hygiene (don't shower or brush your teeth). Refuse to clean up after yourself so she will have to do ALL the house cleaning. No more clean dishes and dirty clothes everywhere. Invite the guys over as much as possible to watch sports and tell them to be loud and obnoxious! Drive her so crazy she will want to leave!!! : ) LOL!!!! There are so many other things he could do to drive her nuts.
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MMMMM...she sounds sexy. Bet she's good in the sack! LMAO
This is why you don't move in with someone who you are only dating!
Yeah, it would be so much better if he had to initiate divorce proceedings instead!
They're not married!
Right, because abuse never occurs in marriage. /s
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He should start to do things that will make her want to leave. Don't flush the toilet again EVER. Stop personal hygiene (don't shower or brush your teeth). Refuse to clean up after yourself so she will have to do ALL the house cleaning. No more clean dishes and dirty clothes everywhere. Invite the guys over as much as possible to watch sports and tell them to be loud and obnoxious! Drive her so crazy she will want to leave!!! : ) LOL!!!! There are so many other things he could do to drive her nuts.
Love this idea!
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Pretty much have it in my head that OP is not leaving this relationship. Men will put up with a lot of shit to get laid and have someone as a mate.
So maybe it would be nice for commenters to give some suggestions that actually work to vastly improve relationships.
I have given two --
1. Harleys writings or blog site --- "His Needs, Her Needs" -- Best realistic stuff on relationships ever and for everyone.
2. Evaluating antecedents and inputs such as medication (often contributes to mood swings), exercise (best cure for depression out there), foods (junk food and wheat = anger/hostility), alcohol (leads to inhibitions), drugs, lighting (females especially prone to SAD) etc..
These two suggestions alone would probably be the only cure he needs.
Anyone else have relationship advice that actually works other than "counseling" which probably will not work?
Hypnosis? Anger Management classes? (I have no experience with these two relating to angry outbursts) EFT? Anything?
Anyone got something that works besides run forest run? We don't stop driving cars because 35,000 US citizens will be killed by them this year. Or that another 200,000 will be injured significantly. We like cars and we like relationships. We can make cars safer, drive safer, drive drunk less and we can make relationships safer too.
Even it he decides to leave (perhaps the ultimate in safety) the advice will do him and all of us good next time.
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We don't stop driving cars because 35,000 US citizens will be killed by them this year. Or that another 200,000 will be injured significantly. We like cars and we like relationships. We can make cars safer, drive safer, drive drunk less and we can make relationships safer too.
So, our wall AC unit malfunctioned a month after we moved into our new apartment 3 months ago. Started shutting off. In the middle of a heat wave (100F+). Called the landlord, said "Hey, can we get a guy out to look at it. No rush, we'll live, but this is a problem." So he arranged it. AC guy came out and said, "Look, this unit is from 1998. That's a long time for an AC unit. They don't make parts for it anymore. It's basically out of freon. Yeah, I can fix it. But I can't fix the leak with what's available. I'll be out here fixing it every summer. I recommend you get a new one." So we forwarded this to the landlord. He got us a new one. I'm sure it will last us/him/future tenants another 16 years.
Moral of the story: some things are worth fixing. Some just need to be replaced. Goes for relationships, too.
Bonus fact: when we moved in, the AC unit was clogged with dust. Like, hunks of it all in the filter, in the coils...obviously previous tenants had never cleaned it, ever.
Bonus moral: you have to take care of things from the beginning, because once they break due to lack of care, it can be too late (or too expensive) to fix. Goes for relationships, too. Sometimes, there's too much baggage accumulated, too much hurt, to let it go.
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Pretty much have it in my head that OP is not leaving this relationship. Men will put up with a lot of shit to get laid and have someone as a mate.
So maybe it would be nice for commenters to give some suggestions that actually work to vastly improve relationships.
I have given two --
1. Harleys writings or blog site --- "His Needs, Her Needs" -- Best realistic stuff on relationships ever and for everyone.
2. Evaluating antecedents and inputs such as medication (often contributes to mood swings), exercise (best cure for depression out there), foods (junk food and wheat = anger/hostility), alcohol (leads to inhibitions), drugs, lighting (females especially prone to SAD) etc..
These two suggestions alone would probably be the only cure he needs.
Anyone else have relationship advice that actually works other than "counseling" which probably will not work?
Hypnosis? Anger Management classes? (I have no experience with these two relating to angry outbursts) EFT? Anything?
Anyone got something that works besides run forest run? We don't stop driving cars because 35,000 US citizens will be killed by them this year. Or that another 200,000 will be injured significantly. We like cars and we like relationships. We can make cars safer, drive safer, drive drunk less and we can make relationships safer too.
Even it he decides to leave (perhaps the ultimate in safety) the advice will do him and all of us good next time.
There is no advice for someone who is dealing with an abuser, other than leave because unless the abuser wants to change, they just get worse.
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We don't stop driving cars because 35,000 US citizens will be killed by them this year. Or that another 200,000 will be injured significantly. We like cars and we like relationships. We can make cars safer, drive safer, drive drunk less and we can make relationships safer too.
So, our wall AC unit malfunctioned a month after we moved into our new apartment 3 months ago. Started shutting off. In the middle of a heat wave (100F+). Called the landlord, said "Hey, can we get a guy out to look at it. No rush, we'll live, but this is a problem." So he arranged it. AC guy came out and said, "Look, this unit is from 1998. That's a long time for an AC unit. They don't make parts for it anymore. It's basically out of freon. Yeah, I can fix it. But I can't fix the leak with what's available. I'll be out here fixing it every summer. I recommend you get a new one." So we forwarded this to the landlord. He got us a new one. I'm sure it will last us/him/future tenants another 16 years.
Moral of the story: some things are worth fixing. Some just need to be replaced. Goes for relationships, too.
Bonus fact: when we moved in, the AC unit was clogged with dust. Like, hunks of it all in the filter, in the coils...obviously previous tenants had never cleaned it, ever.
Bonus moral: you have to take care of things from the beginning, because once they break due to lack of care, it can be too late (or too expensive) to fix. Goes for relationships, too. Sometimes, there's too much baggage accumulated, too much hurt, to let it go.
. So no ideas? Lame. Had the same ac unit at our rental 8 years ago. Went to Walmart, bought a $20 can of freon with stop leak. Still works fine. In mustache world we fix things and use them forever.
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He should start to do things that will make her want to leave. Don't flush the toilet again EVER. Stop personal hygiene (don't shower or brush your teeth). Refuse to clean up after yourself so she will have to do ALL the house cleaning. No more clean dishes and dirty clothes everywhere. Invite the guys over as much as possible to watch sports and tell them to be loud and obnoxious! Drive her so crazy she will want to leave!!! : ) LOL!!!! There are so many other things he could do to drive her nuts.
Love this idea!
It's time to ask for a threesome with her best friend...yeah buddy!
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We don't stop driving cars because 35,000 US citizens will be killed by them this year. Or that another 200,000 will be injured significantly. We like cars and we like relationships. We can make cars safer, drive safer, drive drunk less and we can make relationships safer too.
So, our wall AC unit malfunctioned a month after we moved into our new apartment 3 months ago. Started shutting off. In the middle of a heat wave (100F+). Called the landlord, said "Hey, can we get a guy out to look at it. No rush, we'll live, but this is a problem." So he arranged it. AC guy came out and said, "Look, this unit is from 1998. That's a long time for an AC unit. They don't make parts for it anymore. It's basically out of freon. Yeah, I can fix it. But I can't fix the leak with what's available. I'll be out here fixing it every summer. I recommend you get a new one." So we forwarded this to the landlord. He got us a new one. I'm sure it will last us/him/future tenants another 16 years.
Moral of the story: some things are worth fixing. Some just need to be replaced. Goes for relationships, too.
Bonus fact: when we moved in, the AC unit was clogged with dust. Like, hunks of it all in the filter, in the coils...obviously previous tenants had never cleaned it, ever.
Bonus moral: you have to take care of things from the beginning, because once they break due to lack of care, it can be too late (or too expensive) to fix. Goes for relationships, too. Sometimes, there's too much baggage accumulated, too much hurt, to let it go.
. So no ideas? Lame. Had the same ac unit at our rental 8 years ago. Went to Walmart, bought a $20 can of freon with stop leak. Still works fine. In mustache world we fix things and use them forever.
Sometimes the cost of repairs significantly exceeds the cost of replacement.
And you can't change other people, Bob. They can only change themselves. There are ways to get better at relationships, but they ate different for different people. Some need more assertiveness, others need to give a little. Some needed to express themselves, others to stfu. People vary.
Can't talk more. Going camping.
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If the table were turned, no one would even suggest that maybe a lady should stay with a man who shoves her from behind, slams her laptop shut, and barricades her in the basement. No one would suggest reading a book to make the relationship better. Everyone would say grab your bag and head to the local battered women's shelter until the law can remove the abuser from your house. Then change the locks and get a restraining order.
Why is it so different when a woman is dishing this out to a man?
I ask because I had a friend who used to be in a relationship similar to that reported by OP. His wife would throw stuff at him, hit him, spit on him, not let him sleep, and regularly go on tirades of verbal abuse. Sometimes he would grab her arms to try to stop her from continuing to hit him, and then she'd really go nuts (that was typically when she would start spitting on him.) Then she would play nicey nice for awhile and he'd think things were okay, but then it would happen over again but even be a little worse each time. Of course she blamed him for "causing" her to act like that, which was crazy talk, but he seemed to internalize it. He said he always felt like if he called the police that she would tell them some crazy story and he'd be the one who would end up getting hauled away. He finally got out and does not live with her anymore, but wow it took a long time.
End it. Period.
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Anyone else have relationship advice that actually works other than "counseling" which probably will not work?
Well, according to http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com (http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com), the woman is testing the guy to see just how much shit he will take from her before he says "No more" and actually enforces it. So far she has found out that he will put up with a hell of a lot of crap. Which means that he's probably on the low end of Gamma male in the social hierarchy that the site describes. Manning up enough to stand up to her could do wonders for their relationship. (Is she really happy that she has invested four years of her life into a relationship with an absolutely spineless wimp?) And if it doesn't, then he should cut his losses, clean himself up as best he can, and keep on looking. She is not anywhere near being the last available woman on earth.
I also agree with what Bob said before about diet and chemistry being a likely factor.
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FIRST - OP, you have gotten a lot of great advice and support on this thread I do hope you will take some time to digest and formulate a game plan that will work for you. Also - please check in. You have quite a few people concerned for you.
So no ideas? Lame. Had the same ac unit at our rental 8 years ago. Went to Walmart, bought a $20 can of freon with stop leak. Still works fine. In mustache world we fix things and use them forever.
Bob Werner, while slightly off topic, your statement is so off base, I feel the need to address it. I know you like to offer contradictory opinions and shake things up on the boards. For the most part that is fine, but if the above statement is mustachain living/thinking all summed up for you, and that is the broad strokes, one size fits all solution, you are going to be painting with - you are missing out or disregarding many of the ideals that make mustachian living so attractive and important. Things like:
- Being able to look objectively at a situation and deciding when something (relationship, thing, whatever) is offering a diminishing or negative return and having the courage to let it go - despite you mental associations and attachments.
If we were talking about someones relationship to a financial adviser taking advantage of them, or a car payment on a car they love but they have hair on fire debt - would you be encouraging them to keep either? Or an investment fund with a high commission? That is essentially what this relationship is - a bad transaction emotionally, physically, mentally with a high cost attached.
- Maximizing happiness and personal fulfillment - Being able to identify what is important to us and maximizing the people/experiences and things in our life that feed us, while minimizing or removing the people/things that don't.
- Constantly improving your skills and resiliency and and surrounding yourself with the people/experiences/community/things that serve your highest self.
- Freedom to live a great life - While yes, most of the focus is on achieving FI sometimes we forget the reason BEHIND doing what we do and it essentially comes down to freedom. To have the flexibility, financial cushion and insight available to make the most out of life - to seize opportunities as they come - to embrace an alternative to operating and living from a place of scarcity and fear.
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+1000 for swick
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Anyone else have relationship advice that actually works other than "counseling" which probably will not work?
Well, according to http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com (http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com), the woman is testing the guy to see just how much shit he will take from her before he says "No more" and actually enforces it. So far she has found out that he will put up with a hell of a lot of crap. Which means that he's probably on the low end of Gamma male in the social hierarchy that the site describes. Manning up enough to stand up to her could do wonders for their relationship. (Is she really happy that she has invested four years of her life into a relationship with an absolutely spineless wimp?) And if it doesn't, then he should cut his losses, clean himself up as best he can, and keep on looking. She is not anywhere near being the last available woman on earth.p
I also agree with what Bob said before about diet and chemistry being a likely factor.
. Finally! We have a winner! I was hoping someone would actually point out the shit testing going on here. Time to man up OP. The rest of you, back to your politically correct boxes. Lol
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I'm going to have to disagree with the "Man up" viewpoint here. For one thing, saying "man up" is pretty darn sexist.
It's not him, it's her. Some women are bullies. When it comes to physical bullying, any man who has been taught not to ever raise a hand to a woman is not going to be able to do much about it other than leave.
Please stop the victim blaming, people.
OP, I hope things are working out okay.
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+1
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Anyone else have relationship advice that actually works other than "counseling" which probably will not work?
Well, according to http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com (http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com), the woman is testing the guy to see just how much shit he will take from her before he says "No more" and actually enforces it. So far she has found out that he will put up with a hell of a lot of crap. Which means that he's probably on the low end of Gamma male in the social hierarchy that the site describes. Manning up enough to stand up to her could do wonders for their relationship. (Is she really happy that she has invested four years of her life into a relationship with an absolutely spineless wimp?) And if it doesn't, then he should cut his losses, clean himself up as best he can, and keep on looking. She is not anywhere near being the last available woman on earth.p
I also agree with what Bob said before about diet and chemistry being a likely factor.
. Finally! We have a winner! I was hoping someone would actually point out the shit testing going on here. Time to man up OP. The rest of you, back to your politically correct boxes. Lol
The message here is "if you were a real man, you wouldn't be getting abused." It is just a toxic as the abuse itself and will make it even harder for OP to take care of himself. Do not do this to our friend.
Abuse warps the mindset of both parties. It's not a question of someone being weak or not "manning up." It's an issue of one person manipulating and controlling a situation so that the other no longer trusts his judgment and can't take care of himself. He needs friends to help him regain his faith in himself and in his judgment and to support him through the mental minefield of leaving. Telling him to "man up" is despicable.
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+1
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Who cares if "man up" has the word man in it? I think it would apply equally well to a woman that is being abused by a man. Just fucking man up and stop letting people abuse you - regardless of gender. Man up and move on OP.
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Well, this is getting out of hand.
1) There's a startling amount of ignorance about how abuse works. Telling people who are abused to "toughen up" or "just leave" is ignoring the amount of societal and psychological force levelled against people who divorce or separate from their spouses. Please educate yourselves on the subject. That sort of attitude is right up there with trying to embarrass people into losing weight by showing them belly-photos of other fat people.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-margaret-rutherford/why-i-didnt-leave-until-i_b_5826618.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/why-didnt-you-just-leave_n_5805134.html
2) My experience with anyone talking about "alpha males" vs "any other greek letter males" is that such people are either suffering from low self esteem or trying to sell you something. There are men who have the extroversion and thick skin to approach women and there are those who don't. Pretending there's some kind of evolutionary force behind this is nonsense. Pretending you are -some greek letter- is self-delusion.
3) Abuse is way more serious, subtle and nuanced than is implied by some of the responses here. Passive aggressive is not the way to go. This descends into madness. There is no simple answer.
4) Yes, there's a huge problem with the phrase "man up". Within those two words is a huge amount of sexism that harms men and women in innumerable ways. It tells men that they can't express perfectly legitimate pain and it tells women that they should expect men to behave that way. I could go on. It's a terrible, harmful phrase and we start inculcating our children with it way, way too early.
If we're going to continue like this, we'll have to close the thread.
Toque out.
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Well, this is getting out of hand.
1) There's a startling amount of ignorance about how abuse works. Telling people who are abused to "toughen up" or "just leave" is ignoring the amount of societal and psychological force levelled against people who divorce or separate from their spouses. Please educate yourselves on the subject. That sort of attitude is right up there with trying to embarrass people into losing weight by showing them belly-photos of other fat people.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-margaret-rutherford/why-i-didnt-leave-until-i_b_5826618.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/why-didnt-you-just-leave_n_5805134.html
2) My experience with anyone talking about "alpha males" vs "any other greek letter males" is that such people are either suffering from low self esteem or trying to sell you something. There are men who have the extroversion and thick skin to approach women and there are those who don't. Pretending there's some kind of evolutionary force behind this is nonsense. Pretending you are -some greek letter- is self-delusion.
3) Abuse is way more serious, subtle and nuanced than is implied by some of the responses here. Passive aggressive is not the way to go. This descends into madness. There is no simple answer.
4) Yes, there's a huge problem with the phrase "man up". Within those two words is a huge amount of sexism that harms men and women in innumerable ways. It tells men that they can't express perfectly legitimate pain and it tells women that they should expect men to behave that way. I could go on. It's a terrible, harmful phrase and we start inculcating our children with it way, way too early.
If we're going to continue like this, we'll have to close the thread.
Toque out.
I haven't read every comment in this thread, but I feel compelled to respond to a couple points.
1. I don't think it's anything like fat-shaming someone. No one (at least i'm not and I haven't read other posts that are) is abuse-shaming him to leave. He needs to take accountability for his own life. If you are in an abusive relationship of any kind, JUST LEAVE. You always have that option.
4. Man up used in a way that he should just put up with the abuse and suffer certainly is a problem and in that context I would agree with your points. However I don't think it is inherently sexist or bad, and certainly not in the way I used it. When I say man up I mean take responsibility for your own life, and it's regardless of gender. It's equally applicable to men or women.
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Well, this is getting out of hand.
1) There's a startling amount of ignorance about how abuse works. Telling people who are abused to "toughen up" or "just leave" is ignoring the amount of societal and psychological force levelled against people who divorce or separate from their spouses. Please educate yourselves on the subject. That sort of attitude is right up there with trying to embarrass people into losing weight by showing them belly-photos of other fat people.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-margaret-rutherford/why-i-didnt-leave-until-i_b_5826618.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/why-didnt-you-just-leave_n_5805134.html
2) My experience with anyone talking about "alpha males" vs "any other greek letter males" is that such people are either suffering from low self esteem or trying to sell you something. There are men who have the extroversion and thick skin to approach women and there are those who don't. Pretending there's some kind of evolutionary force behind this is nonsense. Pretending you are -some greek letter- is self-delusion.
3) Abuse is way more serious, subtle and nuanced than is implied by some of the responses here. Passive aggressive is not the way to go. This descends into madness. There is no simple answer.
4) Yes, there's a huge problem with the phrase "man up". Within those two words is a huge amount of sexism that harms men and women in innumerable ways. It tells men that they can't express perfectly legitimate pain and it tells women that they should expect men to behave that way. I could go on. It's a terrible, harmful phrase and we start inculcating our children with it way, way too early.
If we're going to continue like this, we'll have to close the thread.
Toque out.
I haven't read every comment in this thread, but I feel compelled to respond to a couple points.
1. I don't think it's anything like fat-shaming someone. No one (at least i'm not and I haven't read other posts that are) is abuse-shaming him to leave. He needs to take accountability for his own life. If you are in an abusive relationship of any kind, JUST LEAVE. You always have that option.
4. Man up used in a way that he should just put up with the abuse and suffer certainly is a problem and in that context I would agree with your points. However I don't think it is inherently sexist or bad, and certainly not in the way I used it. When I say man up I mean take responsibility for your own life, and it's regardless of gender. It's equally applicable to men or women.
What you're apparently not understanding is that people who have lived in abusive situations are temporarily unable to be accountable for their own lives.
IME, I was broken and I didn't trust my own judgment about anything. Without close, daily support and encouragement from three dear friends, I could not have left. My husband was telling me every day that I was weak; dependent; a loser. If someone had told me to "man up", I couldn't have done it and the humiliation of failing to do something as basic as protecting myself would have merely reinforced what Husband was already saying to me -- I'm a loser.
It's been 12 years since I left and I've worked very hard to be whole again -- lots of therapy, reading, and professional growth. Nevertheless, there are still what I think of as permanent bruises on my psyche that cause me to react to normal situations in abnormal ways. I have to adjust for this in my relationships. People who know me now would be shocked if they found out I was a "victim" of abuse (don't get me started on how much I HATE having that label applied to me -- how humiliating!).
So, YES, your comment was the equivalent of fat-shaming and I am asking you to stop that right now.
On another note, "man up" does not apply equally to men or women. If you really want a handy phrase that's the equivalent, then "step up" works just fine. But don't apply it to anyone trying to find their way out of an abuse situation.
Modified to add: Frugal Toque, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for your post.
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1. I don't think it's anything like fat-shaming someone. No one (at least i'm not and I haven't read other posts that are) is abuse-shaming him to leave. He needs to take accountability for his own life. If you are in an abusive relationship of any kind, JUST LEAVE. You always have that option.
It really doesn't work that way at all too much of the time. Some people can't JUST LEAVE as you imply. I would kindly suggest you pursue some further education about abuse situations.
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A woman abusing a man and a man abusing a woman are not equivalent in capital-R Reality, despite what many other people in this thread have claimed. Biological differences in physical strength between the sexes make these two situations very different. In this case, the woman was only able to block him on the basement stairs for an hour because he preferred not to shove his way past, while if the situation was reversed he probably could have blocked her until she started resorting to power tools. The other differential at play here is that women desire powerful men, while men desire beautiful women. This woman has been described as "lovely", yet she clearly doesn't have a man that's as powerful as she would like. Social hierarchies are real, and the status markers for men and women are different. Take it or leave it, but the truth is all I care about.
If you prefer, you can replace the phrase "manning up" with "adopting an approach that is more in line with what MMM himself would do".
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I appreciate those of you who have shared your painful past stories of abuse. I truly feel like I have learned something and will have a more nuanced view of the complexities of this widespread problem in the future. Thank you.
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A woman abusing a man and a man abusing a woman are not equivalent in capital-R Reality, despite what many other people in this thread have claimed. Biological differences in physical strength between the sexes make these two situations very different. In this case, the woman was only able to block him on the basement stairs for an hour because he preferred not to shove his way past, while if the situation was reversed he probably could have blocked her until she started resorting to power tools. The other differential at play here is that women desire powerful men, while men desire beautiful women. This woman has been described as "lovely", yet she clearly doesn't have a man that's as powerful as she would like. Social hierarchies are real, and the status markers for men and women are different. Take it or leave it, but the truth is all I care about.
If you prefer, you can replace the phrase "manning up" with "adopting an approach that is more in line with what MMM himself would do".
Sorry to be blunt but I have to call this out as the steaming pile of horseshit that it is. Abuse situations always have a foundation of psychological manipulation and control that renders any physical difference between the parties absolutely irrelevant. In Real Life, there is no difference in the psychological impact to a male v. female victim and that's how the abuser gets and maintains control. Please get educated about the abuse dynamic. "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft is a great place to start.
When I was married (for 16 years), and being abused, I routinely referred to my husband as a very fun guy. He was also handsome, charming, intelligent and supportive of me. He was all these things. In public. Which made it all that much easier for me to believe that his private rages and insults resulted from something I must have done. He didn't act like that with other people; if only I was a better ________. Skillful abusers are usually lovely, funny, and outgoing. They can also be kind, generous, and supportive. They have to be in order to insinuate themselves into a position of trust and reliance. Once they're wriggled into that spot, they work hard to keep their victim perpetually off balance and protect their privileged position as the powerful one in the relationship. If the victim starts to see through it and pull away or get (mentally) stronger, the abuser will double-down on the mental tactics and usually work to isolate the victim from any support coming from outside.
Abuse always begins and continues as mental warfare -- inflicted on you by a person who purport to love you. Sex, size, and strength are irrelevant once the abuser has had his or her way with your sense of self.
Edited to add: FWIW, as is common in abuse situations, my husband got physical with me only once and even then he never hit me (he threw me to the floor and sat on my chest). The physical dimension of abuse is what people focus on, but that's not where the lasting damage is done.
OP, we haven't heard from you in a long time. You're on my mind and I hope you're ok.
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A woman abusing a man and a man abusing a woman are not equivalent in capital-R Reality, despite what many other people in this thread have claimed. Biological differences in physical strength between the sexes make these two situations very different. In this case, the woman was only able to block him on the basement stairs for an hour because he preferred not to shove his way past, while if the situation was reversed he probably could have blocked her until she started resorting to power tools. The other differential at play here is that women desire powerful men, while men desire beautiful women. This woman has been described as "lovely", yet she clearly doesn't have a man that's as powerful as she would like. Social hierarchies are real, and the status markers for men and women are different. Take it or leave it, but the truth is all I care about.
If you prefer, you can replace the phrase "manning up" with "adopting an approach that is more in line with what MMM himself would do".
This is my last post on this and then I have to step away because I'm beginning to quiver with anger and outrage for myself and for OP.
Have you paused to consider that the man in this situation might very well have been quite powerful and self-assured 4 years ago when the relationship began? And that the woman has systematically destroyed his sense of self so that she could manipulate and control him?
And now you come along and tell him that whatever treatment he's getting is because he's not powerful enough to be worthy of her.
Seriously, I have to go punch a fucking wall or something.
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The other differential at play here is that women desire powerful men, while men desire beautiful women. This woman has been described as "lovely", yet she clearly doesn't have a man that's as powerful as she would like. Social hierarchies are real, and the status markers for men and women are different.
If a woman is being abusive, it's because her male partner isn't strong enough, and the solution is for him to be more dominating? By that logic, if a man is being abusive, it's because his female partner is too ugly, and she just needs to make herself more beautiful. Puh-leeze.
Also, in spite of this (vastly oversimplified) "real" social hierarchy, unbeautiful women and wimpy guys have been happily marrying, mating, and reproducing themselves just as long as the alpha males and hottie females. I suspect there's more to attraction and relationships than simply being a he-man or babe.
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+1.
Thank you, Truly Stashin and Frugal Toque. The amount of out-and-out ignorance and shaming on this thread made me hesitate to write in.
Abuse is based on psychological control, not size, sex, wealth, or anything else. My abuser never hit me - but it took me more than 5 years after I left him to figure out (again) who I am and to trust my own judgment. Those posters who talk about 'manning up' or 'just leaving' have NO idea how difficult it can be to do either of those things when someone has so messed with your mind that you really can't think for yourself.
OP - Please check in. We are concerned about you. Please ignore those comments on this thread that attempt to blame you for this situation, and get yourself some help to get out.
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This is not a normal or healthy relationship. This is abusive...domestic abuse. Please go to the police, get a restraining order, and seek help. This relationship is wrong, please save yourself.
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I haven't read every comment in this thread, but I feel compelled to respond to a couple points.
1. I don't think it's anything like fat-shaming someone. No one (at least i'm not and I haven't read other posts that are) is abuse-shaming him to leave. He needs to take accountability for his own life. If you are in an abusive relationship of any kind, JUST LEAVE. You always have that option.
Yes, but it's important to note that the way to get people to leave is show them that they have a means of support, that they aren't to blame and that there are safe places to go where they will be respected.
Imagine that you've been abused. You thought you were in love, you thought you were loved. But the love of your life alienates you from your friends, one by one, then your family, one by one. She undermines your confidence, lowers your self-esteem, picks you apart. It's a slow, methodical and (in this case) emasculating process. You find yourself devoid of initiative and you reach out for help. Then the people you reach out to tell you that you aren't enough of a man ("Man up", taken literally). How can that help? I'm sure all of those types of posts are *meant* to be helpful, but are they, in this context?
Dude, Mr. Original Poster. We're here to listen and we're here to help. If we can find you a place to go, we'll do that. You must have friends and family. There are people who still care and will take you back and won't hold it against you.
4. Man up used in a way that he should just put up with the abuse and suffer certainly is a problem and in that context I would agree with your points. However I don't think it is inherently sexist or bad, and certainly not in the way I used it. When I say man up I mean take responsibility for your own life, and it's regardless of gender. It's equally applicable to men or women.
A lot of it depends upon the context in which you've seen that phrase used in your life. Mostly, I see it used against little boys when they cry.
"Why are you crying? Are you a girl?" - actual quote from a male adult in his 50s to a 5-year-old.
If you'd heard "Man up" in that sort of context, could you see the damage the phrase does? That's why I don't use the phrase and I'm very careful in raising my own sons not to use gendered insults like that.
Toque.
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Thank you FrugalToque for writing all that so eloquently.
"Man up" to someone in a bad situation is not helpful in any way.
I hope OP finds the courage to do what they need to fix the situation or get out, one way or the other, because it's hard. My sympathies.
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Thank you FrugalToque for writing all that so eloquently.
"Man up" to someone in a bad situation is not helpful in any way.
I hope OP finds the courage to do what they need to fix the situation or get out, one way or the other, because it's hard. My sympathies.
I agree - I don't find "man up" a helpful statement in any type of situation at all. I think Guante's Ten Responses to the Phrase 'Man Up' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFoBaTkPgco) spoken word video is an incredibly powerful piece of work regarding this statement.
OP - please let us know how you are doing.
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I'll repeat that I think the OP is likely the woman in the relationship, seeking input and advice on her own actions. And there's been no input or updates from the OP for a long time. Still, an interesting conversation and some good advice for both people.
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Thanks to Frugal Toque and Truly Stashin for telling it like it is. Now, OP, where are you? We are here to help.
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It took me a couple of years to get out. This thread brought to mind one of the best things ever said to me during that time by one of the best people I've ever known.
"You have the strength of a young willow tree. No matter what, you can always get to where you need to be."[/b]
OP, I'm sending you that thought right now and I hope it helps you as much as it helped me.
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The part about not wanting to leave because you are co-workers is slightly understandable but not good enough. You could inform HR at your workplace ahead of time that your relationship is ending and that you are hoping it doesn't become a problem in the workplace. You need to be open and transparent with all who could potentially become involved.
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MOD NOTE: Discussion on addiction split off to here: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/re-girlfriend-difficulties-end-it/
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I have nothing but sympathy for the guy in this situation. He has difficult decisions ahead of him, and a steep learning curve. What is going to make the difference for him here is being able to recognize, speak, and follow up on the truth. The social hierarchy theory has had high predictive value in my own life. He can test it for himself, if he likes, and see if he agrees. Or he can adopt the "abused woman" narrative, but personally I think that is really lacking in truth in terms of his value, his potential, and his options. He can even do nothing, if he wants.
Also, in spite of this (vastly oversimplified) "real" social hierarchy, unbeautiful women and wimpy guys have been happily marrying, mating, and reproducing themselves just as long as the alpha males and hottie females. I suspect there's more to attraction and relationships than simply being a he-man or babe.
Relationships at all levels of the social hierarchy can work well if the partners are well-matched in social stature and can respect each other.
Thinking about the woman side of the problem: a diet higher in protein and fat along with regular exercise would be good for both of them. There's probably a lot of self-medication with carbs going on; blood sugar crashes are well-known to destabilize mood. Keep a log of moods and biological factors like meals and sleep, and see if there are any patterns. I got the impression that she is pushing forty. That means her options for leaving this guy for someone else have greatly diminished, and that is probably why she is staying so unhappily. The guy could figure out her Myers-Briggs type, that might give him some insight in how to get through to her better with truth when he is ready to.
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Hrrm, I wonder whether if they'd met the OP face-to-face whether different things would be said.
Bearing in mind that the OP even used a different online username to ask for opinions, if you'd met the OP face-to-face and he'd/she'd mustered up the courage to talk about the situation and ask for opinions:
- Would you tell them to 'man up'?
- Would you tell them that they probably aren't the 'alpha male'? (As an aside, such descriptions of pack mentality in canids are several decades out of date).
- Would you them them that 'being whopped by a girl isn't a big deal'?
I hope in real life people respond to people asking for help in difficult situations with considerably more tact and compassion. I don't see why it should be different online- opinions (whether they are actually accurate or not) can still hurt quite a bit. I suspect given the way the opinons the thread has gone, that we may not hear from the OP under this username again. If you were them, how would you even begin to respond or comment to such opinions of yourself?
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If the table were turned, no one would even suggest that maybe a lady should stay with a man who shoves her from behind, slams her laptop shut, and barricades her in the basement. No one would suggest reading a book to make the relationship better.
Not that it should be much consolation, but they do. I just spent several months -weekly meetings- in a group of women who'd been abused. Women showing up with fresh bruises. Etc. All of us had been told by plenty of people to stay. They were wrong, but they -counsellors, family members, highly intelligent business people- sure did tell us to stay, to read the books, to try new techniques ourselves in an attempt to prevent their outbursts, to empathize with ("understand") the abuser, give the abuser time, look at it differently, and so on.
Something I find helpful: Statistically, most people will leave an abusive relationship about 8 times before they finally leave for good. There are lots of reasons this is so, but it's helpful information for (a) helping an abused person not feel so silly through the process, and (b) giving their supporters more patience and acceptance while the abused person goes through the process.
+1 to Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That?.
Also, it can indeed be terrifying to think of being alone, but it's not that the options are "be happy some of the time with a person who is usually lovely but sometimes abusive" or "be alone, isolated, devastated, depressed, and eternally grieving". And the third option isn't always just a better partner. Find out what -besides a partner- makes you happy, and pursue all of that. Then, whether you have a partner or not is entirely moot for you.
Finally, almost every person who is abusive is usually lovely. Otherwise, very few people would be in a relationship with a person who is abusive. The loveliness is required for the abuser to maintain their option to abuse.
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Sorry, but I just don't get the lashback on "man up." (And you don't have to try to explain... I've read the thread.... I'm probably not going to get it.)
I've been this guy. I've been in this situation. I'm just not bothered by non-PC speech -- especially if it comes from the heart and no real malice is behind it.
To me, the whole side thread on "saying the right thing the right way" is a distraction to his real issue.
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I'm not sure this relationship can be salvaged in any case. The thing to do now is to figure out how to evict her from his home. There may be a legal process that needs to be followed.
A hindsight is 20/20 observation; best not to date coworkers.
In this case, the term "man up" means break up, and follow through as can be safely done. In this case safely means legally as well.
As Dan Savage would say: DTMFA. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=DTMFA
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I know this guy who’s been with a lovely woman for the last 4 years.
...and during this argument she pushed/hit him from behind into a wall. Then later she slammed his laptop screen down on his hands, and after that threw his phone across the room into the wall.
...she locked him in the basement of the house for an hour by blocking the stairwell physically so that he either stayed where he was or he had to physically move her, he chose the former.
Yeah, she sounds super lovely.
...She says these things happen in all relationships...
This is not true. Not even close.
Get out. Get out now...
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I guess I'm the only one on here, but I've thrown things before in frustration, just not in the context of a romantic relationship. I threw my cell phone down on the ground once in a fit of postpartum frustration after my baby had been crying for hours. I've probably thrown other things before. I'm not proud of it, but I am not an abuser. I would be interested in someone weighing in who has training in abuse. Can someone be a thrower without being an abuser? If not, I am rather worried about what rests beneath my psychological surface.
I would take a much harder line about the physical violence rather than the throwing, although throwing something across the room could inadvertently cause physical violence. Say you marry this woman and you and she are in a fight. Perhaps she throws something and a kid walks in the room and gets hit.
Do you think counseling could solve her anger issues?
Throwing things, I think, is a symptom of anger issues that need to be dealt with. However, I suppose you could be a "thrower" without being an "abuser." For example, in your frustration example, you threw your own phone when you were by yourself. That doesn't seem like abuse to me. In the OP's example, the girlfriend threw HIS phone to gain the upper hand in an argument.
Disclaimer: I am not a therapist.
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Hi All,
I wanted to take a moment to update this thread. I am doing so for a couple of reasons. Foremost, to thank all of the people that have responded in the thread with words of encouragement, support and advice. I cannot thank you enough for your kindness, it really has helped me a great deal. Because those individuals asked for me to check in, I am doing so. Finally, this will serve as a reminder to me as to where I am today and where I am going, I will revisit this thread as a reminder to stay on the right path.
I have done a tremendous amount of learning and have now engaged with more than one method to get face to face help. Indeed, while the problem that I face is not ‘my fault’ I do recognize that there are parts of me that have allowed things to get to this point and these patterns have and will repeat themselves for me if I don’t do something about them. One thing that has been made apparent to me is I am very isolated with almost no support network to speak of. That must change and I will start building that now. I have also made contact with an attorney.
Those with real experience/knowledge in this area know how hard it is to get out. I have found that to be true. I am not out of the relationship. I tried, but I am exhausted and I just don’t think I can carry out what would need to be done without a better plan in place and the resources of a support network to help me carry it out. As a result, I am giving her a chance to work on her problems with professional help. I fully understand how unlikely it is that she will be able to change.
With that in mind I am starting my plan now and will keep the details of that to myself. I will fully assess the situation in 3 months and again at 6 months and determine if things are on the right path or not for both me and her. If they are not, I will get out of the relationship with a plan in place. Obviously if something happens in the interim, my plans will have to change accordingly.
I have to get into in a better place than I am today. This will serve as a reminder of my commitment to make that happen.
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Hi, What to do, glad to see you are back. Now listen, you have one big, humongous support network, and that is us here on this forum. Some of us have been in your position, some of us (not me, though) are social worker types and counsellors…and while I know that posting on the Internet is not the same as going down to the diner and having a cup of coffee…we are here for you, and just hook in whenever you need to.
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Hi, What to do, glad to see you are back. Now listen, you have one big, humongous support network, and that is us here on this forum. Some of us have been in your position, some of us (not me, though) are social worker types and counsellors…and while I know that posting on the Internet is not the same as going down to the diner and having a cup of coffee…we are here for you, and just hook in whenever you need to.
+1.
Keep working that plan. Even if your partner is able/willing to make changes, I urge you to get her out of the house. You see, both of you have work to do, and you both need support - but it'll be better for both of you, and your relationship, if the two of you have other friends to talk to, and 'corners' to which you can retreat when you need to.
The attorney is a good start. I'd suggest talking to either your work supervisor or HR, too. What you are going through is extremely stressful, and the more folks who know about the situation, the more support you can draw from them. The knowledge that you're going through a rough time can be helpful for your supervisor, too, in assessing how many projects to assign you - and, who knows, your work might have *free* resources to help you through this!
Thank you for checking in. Please keep coming back. And, when you feel ready, maybe you can let us know where you are? You might find a built-in network of friends from this site in your area.
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I wish you the best of luck, whattodo. If there's anything I can do to help, send me a PM.
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I'm so glad you are seeking support and help. In many instances, the slow destruction of a social group and a support network is one of the first red flags of an unhealthy or abusive partner. Rebuilding relationships and seeking out support, both professional and community based, is one of the best first steps you can take if you can't get out immediately. Good luck and I wish the best for both you and your significant other (not necessarily together!).
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Document, document and collect evidence and recordings if legal in your state. You have a good chance of bein accused as the abuser.
Thebn protect your finances and stuff.
Then file a police report.
Then GTFO.
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I'm glad you're making the first steps and being careful. I'll echo everyone else in saying that those of us on the forums are here for you.
Please consider keeping your important personal documents (birth certificate, passport, social security card, car title, computer backup, etc) in a safe deposit box or held with a friend/family member. Also if you have combined your finances, make sure you have at least 1 checking account and credit card that are separate so you always have access to funds. That will help you if things escalate and you have to leave quickly.
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How to get her to leave? Call the police and have her arrested next time she assaults you.
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Whattodo:
I'm sorry to hear that you are in this situation. It is a situation with no short term easy way out. Either you stay in the relationship, which is obviously abusive or you go through what will likely be a messy breakup, to put it lightly. I'm glad to hear that you are moving forward on option number two. Being at a point where you have your mind around the fact that it is an abusive relationship is a very difficult hurdle to get over. But it is a watershed realization and I wish you the best as you move forward.
For the last 2 years (yes 2 years) I've been trying to intervene remotely in what I perceive to be at least a verbally abusive relationship including multiple calls to appropriate agencies, interventions, and the like. It has been very difficult and strained relationships. The biggest impediment to ending the situation is the abused person's expectation for the behavior to change. (side note: I have no interest in discussing specifics of this in this forum for obvious reasons). Unfortunately this is generally not the case. The trap is that it is possible to both love a person for the good qualities and have their toxic behavior persist. Here's the important part: you can't pick and choose. If you keep the relationship, you keep the toxicity, the toxicity is normalized, and the situation worsens over time. You should definitely utilize all of the resources at your disposal to help you move forward smartly and safely.
I'm glad you have reached the watershed where you can extract yourself from the situation. I hope that there is an opportunity for you to put the GF in touch with resources to help her deal with her issues and have a better life as a result- but that cannot be your priority right now.
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Thank you for checking in, and I'm glad you are building a support network. Please accept my best wishes for a bright future.
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Whattodo, I am very pleased that I have been proven wrong and that you've re-surfaced in this thread! I admire your introspection on the situation, and your courage in getting face-to-face help- I appreciate none of this is easy and requires grit, which is a quality I hold as equally valuable (if not more so) than badassity itself.
I am too far away to offer any practical help, but please do consider asking members on this forum for face-to-face or practical help. They're a great resource- people who have got (or are getting) finances under control have the ability to help with other important things (I consider helping people in suboptimal relationships an important thing).
Best of luck, and signing out.
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Whattodo, I checked back in on this thread only because I hoped you had returned to update us. You've been on my mind and I'm so very, very happy that the fog has cleared and you see whats going on.
I'm also glad that you're planning and being strategic by building a support network and getting legal advice. That's awesome! You will find that you get a tiny bit stronger every day, though some days are better than others. Don't be discouraged and stay focused on your plan.
Once I KNEW my marriage had to end, it started planning much like you're doing. I talked to an attorney and I started squirreling away money. I had never lived on my own and I had two children to support. The school system I worked for asked if I'd teach an extra class for more pay and I jumped on it. I also started looking at other places to live -- we owned a home together and I had no idea what The End would look like so I wanted to build options.
Anyway, long story short, it took about 7 months from the Epiphany (this is over) to The End. There were moments when I stood up for myself and moments when I stayed quiet and kept my head down until the storm passed (if he had gotten physical, I had a plan to call the cops and get a restraining order). All the while, I built up my strength and my stash and my support network. He moved out on Jan. 18, 2003 and my life has taken an upward trajectory since then. Really good things await you.
Please feel free to PM me at any point and if you want I'll share my phone number and we can talk. Really, truly, don't hesitate. I'm cheering for you.
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As you give her another chance (a mistake in my mind) you need to start making your plans for what happens if that doesn't work.
You've received great advice on this board to date, I'll echo some.
Document every infraction (do you have a way to tape one of her tirades?)
Install locks on your doors or some method of blocking it from an unwanted visitor (skymall sells devices travelers can use in a hotel to bar the door)
Consult with a lawyer and know your rights as the owner of the property, her rights as a tenant and what to do in the case of eviction. Do this now!