Getting new job. Just neglected to quit the old one?

[Reepekg]

I need the opinions of some free thinking Mustachians. This is one of those things that feels wrong, but maybe it is just a system of behavior that never gets questioned (like retiring at 30):

I have 7x annual expenses in the 'stache. It is time to leave my current job of 1.5 years for a number of reasons. Company policy is never to give raises. Management is completely disorganized (example, vacation days aren't tracked and the director of our 40 person office took 50+ days last year). My boss is on an 8 hours time difference, so emails are always delayed by a day and nobody notices if I am in or out of the office because I 25% travel. There are few critical tasks (5-10 hours a week) and thousands of useless ones (30+ hours) nobody notices. It is very rare anyone calls on the phone.

So basically, I have no fear of getting fired since I want to leave. If I line up a new full time job in a completely different industry (finance vs. engineering for manufacturing)...  what if I just don't quit my current job? It would probably take them a month to notice I stopped coming in, 2-3 if I kept answering emails.

What are the potential cons? I have no problem being fired from company A at any point. If company B finds out and fires me, that would be a bummer, but I'm pretty employable and could scrounge up a 3rd job eventually (plenty of stache + spouse to cover unemployment, plus I'm evaluating staying home when having kids in about 2 years). I'd prioritize company B during 9-5 and work on company A tasks whenever. It doesn't seem to be illegal as far as I can tell. Company A doesn't have a non-concurrent employment clause in my contract and I'll check with company B before I start to avoid getting sued. I have a non-compete agreement with A, but I'd have to respect that if I quit to work for B anyway.

Obvious pro: 2 paychecks

Is it worth a try?

[kudy]

If you were still completing the work for the old job, I'd say it's only half crazy. If you're talking about doing nothing and collecting the pay, I'd avoid it.

I wouldn't want to do something as seemingly dishonest as this, and they may have some sort of legal recourse to recover paid salary if you stopped working.

[Reepekg]

To clarify: I would plan to complete the same amount of work that I currently do. I could just quit at any time if I wasn't keeping up (no 2 weeks, sorry). I also have more than enough funds to pay them back if they ask for paid salary returned.

[dividendman]

To clarify: I would plan to complete the same amount of work that I currently do.

Then you're not doing anything wrong and should keep it as long as you want/are able.

[innerscorecard]

You could get fired from your new job if they find out you are still on payroll at your old job. You would violate your duty of loyalty to your full time employer by having another full-time job.

[JLee]

You could get fired from your new job if they find out you are still on payroll at your old job. You would violate your duty of loyalty to your full time employer by having another full-time job.

I wasn't aware of a "duty of loyalty" that only permitted someone to hold one job.

[ClaycordJCA]

Fraud.  Theft of wages.  Conversion.  Possibly embezzlement.  Unjust enrichment.  Punitive damages. All come to mind as potential claims. Might want to check with a lawyer in your state for legal advice rather than rely on the lay opinion of forum members who, frankly, have absolutely no idea about whether your plan is legal and, if not, the potential for civil or criminal liability. 

[JLee]

Fraud.  Theft of wages.  Conversion.  Possibly embezzlement.  Unjust enrichment.  Punitive damages. All come to mind as potential claims. Might want to check with a lawyer in your state for legal advice rather than rely on the lay opinion of forum members who, frankly, have absolutely no idea about whether your plan is legal and, if not, the potential for civil or criminal liability.

I definitely agree that legal advice would be the way to go, but I don't see how you would get embezzlement out of this. Nor theft of wages, nor fraud, if the following can be proven:

To clarify: I would plan to complete the same amount of work that I currently do. I could just quit at any time if I wasn't keeping up (no 2 weeks, sorry). I also have more than enough funds to pay them back if they ask for paid salary returned.

[innkeeper77]

What about asking your boss if you can switch to "part time" - emphasize you would continue to do the same work as before, just on a different schedule, and ask to be paid accordingly. Offer to take a 30% or so paycut to do exactly the same thing as before- just on your off hours. (The 30% paycut is due to "removing" a few of the useless tasks nobody does anyway) This way, you aren't lying, you aren't working two "full time jobs" and you don't have to worry about anything. Sure it's less money, but it would probably be worth it.

[SoCal Spartan]

I did essentially what you are proposing myself a little over a year ago.

I had a job that allowed me to work remotely 95% of the time and tasks that typically took around 10-15 hours a week to complete. I got bored pretty quickly with Job A and started looking for other opportunities. Another one arose and I accepted a position at Job B while still keeping Job A. No one was ever the wiser.

But, there are a few caveats to my story. I worked as a contractor for Job A (which eliminates the legal issues). I repeatedly met with my boss over the first 6 months of employment expressing interest in becoming a full-time employee (after being told it would be a realistic possibility after the first three months) and nothing ever came of it. That made my decision a little easier. I was also jerked around by Job B, initially applying for and being offered a full-time salaried position, only to have it revoked the next day and offered an open-ended contract instead.

In the end, having both jobs only went on for about three months before I ended up leaving Job B because it wasn't a good fit.

I say, if you think you can manage it, do it. It wasn't always easy to juggle both jobs on some days, but I've also been burned numerous times by employers promising this or that to end up with nothing to show for their empty promises.

Business is business and if you're in the clear legally and can do your job(s) to satisfaction, fuck them and do what's best for you.

[NICE!]

Cathy knows some serious law!

If you can get the work done remotely, why can't you request telecommuting? Could your new job support one day or even one afternoon off per week so you could show your face at the old job?

At any rate, be very careful. I'd be concerned about legal issues.

[ClaycordJCA]

JLee-

The OP's employer is presumably paying him to be at work during specified hours - he's full time, after all.  I understood the OP to say he wasn't showing up and may not respond to emails. Instead, he would be working elsewhere during the time he was supposed to be working for his first employer, but still accepting wages from the first employer. Why would OP willing to repay wages if he didn't think he was doing something wrong?  A quick Google search identified one case in which San Francisco criminally prosecuted a group of city workers for moonlighting on city time, among other misdeeds.  The article characterizes some of the charges as theft of city funds and embezzlement.   Would it be under the OP's plan?  I don't know; I'm not a criminal lawyer. But it is within the realm of possibility. Which is why I suggested he get legal advice. 

[dividendman]

I think the chances of getting sued even if you are discovered are 1% and them winning anything significant if they do is 0%. You'll probably just be fired. Why? Because it takes effort to sue someone. And what are they going to sue you for? The few grand in compensation they gave you? It's not worth it for the company to do that monetarily. Companies also care about publicity and they're not going to go around suing their employees (especially low level ones).

Now if you're making millions, are a company officer and the company relies on you for it's survival, they might sue you, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Go talk to a lawyer if you must, but if you think you can do both jobs just do it.

I would love for someone to show me cases where low level employees got sued for working for another company and lost anything significant. I can see all the mcdonalds workers who work at Burger King on the weekend running for the hills due to the fear of being sued. Gimme a break.

Also, i just googled "sued for moonlighting" and the first case that comes up is a cop in seattle who WON money from the city because they said she couldn't moonlight. Anecdotal for sure but there you go.

As a matter of theory I'm sure the above posters are correct that you could theoretically get sued and lose a bit of money - though this might still be an efficient breach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient_breach). As a matter of practice, ~0% chance in my opinion

[NeonPegasus]

Is it legal? Maybe so. Is it ethical? That's an entirely different matter. As a prior poster mentioned, your employer is paying you for full-time work, which you would not be providing under your scheme. I assume you intuitively know this. After all, if everything was on the up and up you could be honest with both parties without concern.

[Eric]

I'd give it a try.  If you can keep up with the work of two full time jobs (even if one can be completed in less than full time hours), then why not?  I agree with dividendman that the chances of you getting sued are practically zero, since working a second job is hardly a crime.  If you can keep up with the work of both, then neither employer has a gripe.  If you can't then you'll just quit the original.

Those questioning the ethics of this are way off base in my opinion.  I doubt they'd question the blue collar worker who took a 2nd blue collar job.  In fact, it'd be encouraged.  Slightly shifting your work hours is hardly an ethical issue.

[NoraLenderbee]

If Company B finds out, they may not be happy and you could lose that job. I know I would not be happy if I hired a new employee and he turned out to be doing this.

This isn't the same thing as a worker who takes a second job on evenings or weekends. This is having two fulltime jobs at the same time with the same (or overlapping) hours. Company A would be paying you when you were actually working for Company B, which is also paying you. And what if both A and B had urgent work that had to be done at the same time? 

Just quit the old job--make a clean break.

[trailrated]

I'd give it a try.  If you can keep up with the work of two full time jobs (even if one can be completed in less than full time hours), then why not?  I agree with dividendman that the chances of you getting sued are practically zero, since working a second job is hardly a crime.  If you can keep up with the work of both, then neither employer has a gripe.  If you can't then you'll just quit the original.

Those questioning the ethics of this are way off base in my opinion.  I doubt they'd question the blue collar worker who took a 2nd blue collar job.  In fact, it'd be encouraged.  Slightly shifting your work hours is hardly an ethical issue.

+1

[Exflyboy]

Heck I'd do it.

Then again I love gaming the system.. any system.. Like how to maximise the number of air miles and hotel points on a particular business trip.

This it the same thing, its gaming the system.

Its not illegal (at least not in my State, Oregon is an "At will" State, where you can offer or remove your services to anyone at any time)  and if you find you can't deal with the workload then quit one of the jobs.

How is anyone going to find out.. and why would they bother trying if your getting the work done?

Frank

[Dimitri]

...Management is completely disorganized (example, vacation days aren't tracked and the director of our 40 person office took 50+ days last year). My boss is on an 8 hours time difference, so emails are always delayed by a day and nobody notices if I am in or out of the office because I 25% travel. There are few critical tasks (5-10 hours a week) and thousands of useless ones (30+ hours) nobody notices. It is very rare anyone calls on the phone. ...

The way I'm reading it OP is expected to be in the office 75% of the time (when he is not traveling on company business).  That is what his employer expects of him.  Whether he can complete his work in one or two hours each day is not important.  He is getting paid for 8 hours and that is what he owes his employer. 

Would it be ethical if he was punching a time clock to clock in - go to a second job - then come back and clock out?  Obviously not.  In fact I suspect he would be fired as soon as his employer realized it.  As he should be. 

How is this any different?

[Jack]

...Management is completely disorganized (example, vacation days aren't tracked and the director of our 40 person office took 50+ days last year). My boss is on an 8 hours time difference, so emails are always delayed by a day and nobody notices if I am in or out of the office because I 25% travel. There are few critical tasks (5-10 hours a week) and thousands of useless ones (30+ hours) nobody notices. It is very rare anyone calls on the phone. ...

The way I'm reading it OP is expected to be in the office 75% of the time (when he is not traveling on company business).  That is what his employer expects of him.  Whether he can complete his work in one or two hours each day is not important.  He is getting paid for 8 hours and that is what he owes his employer. 

Would it be ethical if he was punching a time clock to clock in - go to a second job - then come back and clock out?  Obviously not.  In fact I suspect he would be fired as soon as his employer realized it.  As he should be. 

How is this any different?

The way it's different is that (it sounds like) he's salaried, not hourly. Companies don't pay a salaried worker extra if his work takes more time, so they should not dock a worker's pay if his work takes less time (or force him to sit around doing nothing). Fair's fair, after all.

IMO, the only things unethical about doing this are (A) hiding it from the company and (B) putting in less than your best effort to get assigned tasks done.

The best plan would be to try to get reclassified as a 1099 independent contractor, so that it's 100% crystal clear that you're setting your own hours and aren't beholden to being at work for any specific length of time. But at minimum, you should certainly tell the company what's going on if you're asked.

[dividendman]

Ethics and business only go hand in hand when it is convenient for the business or it costs the business too much to breach any express or implied ethical constraints.

Consider yourself to be a business. It will not cost you too much to breach any type of implied or express arrangement and therefore you should do it.

[Self-employed-swami]

I worked 2 full time jobs at once, for about 2 months when I was in university (off for the summer).  I worked an office job from 8:30 AM until 4 PM, and then I worked as a telephone operator from 8:30 PM until 4AM.  I slept in 3.5 hour chunks, as I was lucky just 5 blocks from one job, and 7 from the other.

I was a zombie though, and I realized that I needed to quit the phone company when I answered my other job phone as 'Telus Operator' once, when my boss called me.  I played it off as a joke, but I needed to put a lot more energy and thought into the office job, and the lack of sleep wasn't getting me there.

If you can manage both, I clearly don't see an ethical issue with doing so, provided that you don't burn out.  Just investigate the tax implications a little, you might jump a bracket getting 2 full time salaries, and wind up owing a bunch at tax time.

[worms]

Would there not be tax paperwork that company B would need to see for deduction purposes that would give the game away?

[Sofa King]

I'd give it a try.  If you can keep up with the work of two full time jobs (even if one can be completed in less than full time hours), then why not? working a second job is hardly a crime. 
Those questioning the ethics of this are way off base in my opinion.  I doubt they'd question the blue collar worker who took a 2nd blue collar job.  In fact, it'd be encouraged.  Slightly shifting your work hours is hardly an ethical issue.

I concur!

[Numbers Man]

I say "catch me if you can". At first I was repulsed at your idea of working for 2 employers at the same time. But if you're doing the work, why not?

[catccc]

I'd give it a try.  If you can keep up with the work of two full time jobs (even if one can be completed in less than full time hours), then why not?  I agree with dividendman that the chances of you getting sued are practically zero, since working a second job is hardly a crime.  If you can keep up with the work of both, then neither employer has a gripe.  If you can't then you'll just quit the original.

Those questioning the ethics of this are way off base in my opinion.  I doubt they'd question the blue collar worker who took a 2nd blue collar job.  In fact, it'd be encouraged.  Slightly shifting your work hours is hardly an ethical issue.

This.  Plus I want OP to do it as a grand experiment of sorts.  And seriously consider writing a book about this or otherwise keeping some sort of journal.  It would make a great story.

[catccc]

It would probably take them a month to notice I stopped coming in, 2-3 if I kept answering emails.

And what if you went in once a week or so?  How much longer could you keep it up?  I'd love for this to go on for months or even years.

[Chrissy]

Sue?  Ridiculous.  Yes, this is definitely worth a try. 

My fiance starts a new job in a week, and and we discussed this very scheme!  In the end, he gave notice, so he could actually watch them FREAK OUT about losing him.  Which they did.  Hehe!  Bastards.

[iamadummy]

As long as you can complete both jobs and do the work, then go for it. It should not be an issue.

[Eric]

This.  Plus I want OP to do it as a grand experiment of sorts.  And seriously consider writing a book about this or otherwise keeping some sort of journal.  It would make a great story.

I doubt he'll have time.  He is going to be working two full time jobs afterall.  :)

[DaMa]

I had a coworker who I really thought WAS doing this.  He eventually quit for another job.  The boss would never admit that the coworker wasn't working, because the boss would have been in big trouble.  I say go for it.

[minority_finance_mo]

The answer is yes. I can never understand corporations so wasteful as to have their employees sit around the majority of their time. Then again, I work in media so 10+ hour days of constant work are the norm...

[Reepekg]

This.  Plus I want OP to do it as a grand experiment of sorts.  And seriously consider writing a book about this or otherwise keeping some sort of journal.  It would make a great story.

I doubt he'll have time.  He is going to be working two full time jobs afterall.  :)

Haha, exactly. A third job is just what I need!

I find the ethical argument some have pointed out to be the most interesting, because business ethics are so often a one way street. My current employer is a multinational behemoth motivated solely by profit. It does things like strategically refusing to pay suppliers, selling products it knows to be defective, violating the intent but not the letter of the law... my salaried employment contract is at will and I can be discarded at any time. They basically give zero shits about me. Yet, I am the ethically bankrupt one if I do not show complete loyalty in my behavior and putting my employer's interests first as expected. To this I say: I too can do everything possible in my own interest that is not illegal.

I think a relationship has to be reciprocal. For example, my previous job was for a small start up company that clearly cared about its employees. I worked 110% for them (nights, weekends, whatever was needed) because I believed in what they were doing, and they did things like get me company equity as soon as they could and allow me to set my own schedule no questions asked. Heck, I'd even try to help them out if they called me today, even though I no longer work there.

Despite my love for gaming the system, at the end of the day I have zero risk tolerance for actually breaking the law. Unfortunately, I don't understand the law well enough to know if I would be brushing up against fraud or theft of wages in my state. I doubt consulting a lawyer would be cost effective (plus they'd probably be scared to death to approve this plan.) Since I calculate in the best case scenario I could probably only come out with smug satisfaction and $20k or so, I will probably go with honesty and offer my current boss a part time outside the hours of 9-5 consulting arrangement.

Worth re-reading, for me at least: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/11/get-rich-with-good-old-fashioned-honesty/

As for a book plot line, there's an interesting idea...

[PurpleEi]

How did it all work out?

[electriceagle]

You could get fired from your new job if they find out you are still on payroll at your old job. You would violate your duty of loyalty to your full time employer by having another full-time job.

There's a big difference between moonlighting (having two jobs) and not going to work but continuing to collect a paycheck. Its not clear which we're talking about here.

Look at your employment agreement and company policies.

Are you salaried? If so, you don't need to spend a particular number of hours working; you just need to do your job. It matters quite a lot whether the company is paying for your time (hourly) or your skill (salaried).

Are there "core hours" when you are supposed to be in the office? If so, you can't take a second job that prevents you from meeting that requirement. If not...

Is company B a competitor to company A, or is there a conflict of interest present? All of these things matter.

[waffle]

The only way I can see this going badly is if you are under contract to commit your time to either company. If not you are salaried, so if you can get the work done for both go for it. Tons of people hold more than one job. If its not relevant to getting your work done why would it matter if the two employers know about each other...?

[LouLou]

I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.   I am not providing any legal advice in this thread.  In fact, I would love to represent your employer(s)!  This would be a fun case to litigate.  I'm picking out the causes of action in my mind - I think quite a few would fit.

A lot of the advice here is just terrible. If you're salaried at either job, I would not try your plan.  Salaried employees are paid to use their efforts full-time to advance their employers' interests ahead of their own.  You cannot do that for two different employers at once.   This is very different from having two hourly jobs (that have no other restrictions) - each job is paying for the set amounts of time of you working there.

Even without the legal consequences, you would be less employable if you got fired from either or both jobs because of this.  You don't sound FIRE yet.

And this is not a matter of ethics or morals to me really.  I think you should absolutely advance your own interests without crossing any lines.  But this is crossing some (legal) lines. Not worth the risk.  The only benefit is the second paycheck for as long as you could keep it going (I bet you would get sick of even answering emails from OldJob), and you could lose that anyway.

[bacchi]

Salaried employees are paid to use their efforts full-time to advance their employers' interests ahead of their own. 

Touch-the-wall? Exempt employees aren't actually paid to be there full-time and, in fact, there's no definition of "full-time" in the FLSA.

In the end, broadly speaking, pay can not be docked if the exempt employee at least shows up for work.

Even without the legal consequences, you would be less employable if you got fired from either or both jobs because of this.  You don't sound FIRE yet.

Definitely true. I would suspect that word would get around.

[LouLou]

Salaried employees are paid to use their efforts full-time to advance their employers' interests ahead of their own. 

Touch-the-wall? Exempt employees aren't actually paid to be there full-time and, in fact, there's no definition of "full-time" in the FLSA.

In the end, broadly speaking, pay can not be docked if the exempt employee at least shows up for work.

Even without the legal consequences, you would be less employable if you got fired from either or both jobs because of this.  You don't sound FIRE yet.

Definitely true. I would suspect that word would get around.

When I say "full time" I'm not referring to any amount of time. Think of it as your full employment-related efforts. And I am referring to common law, not statutes.

[Cathy]

As I said in my post above, there may be relevant statutes in your jurisdiction in addition to any common law principles. That said, my earlier post was not intended to be a comprehensive treatise on this subject.

[Insanity]

I worked two contracting positions (one was w-2).  I kept the non W-2 one informed of when I could not work due to the W-2 position.  And I took off of the W-2 position when I had to be at the other and unable to perform the job function.  both were remote and I didn't have to provide full focus to the either (the both entailed long running jobs and processes and monitoring).

I would not recommend doing it for long.  I did it for roughly four months and then held two contracting gigs for another few months.  I think the total time I held two positions was close to 9 months.

I was fried.  Very,very fried.  The money was great.  It took almost two to three months to recover from the effort.  Was it worth it?  For the situation we were in, it was.  Not because I wasn't making enough, but because I wanted to to make sure we had more than just enough. 

That said - neither position was getting less than 100% on all assigned work.

[Letj]

I need the opinions of some free thinking Mustachians. This is one of those things that feels wrong, but maybe it is just a system of behavior that never gets questioned (like retiring at 30):

I have 7x annual expenses in the 'stache. It is time to leave my current job of 1.5 years for a number of reasons. Company policy is never to give raises. Management is completely disorganized (example, vacation days aren't tracked and the director of our 40 person office took 50+ days last year). My boss is on an 8 hours time difference, so emails are always delayed by a day and nobody notices if I am in or out of the office because I 25% travel. There are few critical tasks (5-10 hours a week) and thousands of useless ones (30+ hours) nobody notices. It is very rare anyone calls on the phone.

So basically, I have no fear of getting fired since I want to leave. If I line up a new full time job in a completely different industry (finance vs. engineering for manufacturing)...  what if I just don't quit my current job? It would probably take them a month to notice I stopped coming in, 2-3 if I kept answering emails.

What are the potential cons? I have no problem being fired from company A at any point. If company B finds out and fires me, that would be a bummer, but I'm pretty employable and could scrounge up a 3rd job eventually (plenty of stache + spouse to cover unemployment, plus I'm evaluating staying home when having kids in about 2 years). I'd prioritize company B during 9-5 and work on company A tasks whenever. It doesn't seem to be illegal as far as I can tell. Company A doesn't have a non-concurrent employment clause in my contract and I'll check with company B before I start to avoid getting sued. I have a non-compete agreement with A, but I'd have to respect that if I quit to work for B anyway.

Obvious pro: 2 paychecks

Is it worth a try?

That's fraud and clearly immoral. Why would you even contemplate something like that? Obtaining money by deceit is not the way to live life.