Author Topic: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!  (Read 8152 times)

nikki

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
  • Age: 37
  • Location: South Korea
My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« on: February 09, 2014, 08:23:54 PM »
So, I thought I'd post this question to seek Mustachian advise.

My mom has two car loans totaling around $52,000. One's for her SUV-thingy and another's for my sister's truck-thingy. As you can tell, I'm totally on top of the details here. The vehicles are both two years old.

My mom now realizes how stupid she was for getting these cars, but she doesn't see any option other than to suck it up and continue paying $1200+ each month for these monsters. She mentioned that she's $10-12k underwater on the loans, and can't come up with that kind of money to get out and buy cheaper used options. She also can't take a personal loan to cover the difference.

What are her options? The cars are from a dealership; could she go there and negotiate something? Maybe even trade in for cheaper, used cars from the dealership?

She seems to think that her only option is to keep the cars, and has resolved that if that's what happens, she'll run them into the ground before thinking about getting another car. I've never had to deal with anything like this before, so I'm just as clueless as she is. Help?

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2014, 09:10:18 PM »
I can't see anything good happening at a dealership. The only thing they could offer would be if she bought a more expensive car and was able to roll the negative equity into that loan. Banks will sometimes finance 120% loan to value. This would require her to get an expensive enough car so that her negative equity was 20% (or less) of the new car's value.

The most realistic option is to pay them down to the point that she's not underwater and then sell ASAP.

Could she get your sister to take over the payments on the truck? Either by just paying your mom every month or by taking her own personal loan?

Is a HELOC available?

nikki

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
  • Age: 37
  • Location: South Korea
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2014, 09:17:13 PM »
I can't see anything good happening at a dealership. The only thing they could offer would be if she bought a more expensive car and was able to roll the negative equity into that loan. Banks will sometimes finance 120% loan to value. This would require her to get an expensive enough car so that her negative equity was 20% (or less) of the new car's value.

The most realistic option is to pay them down to the point that she's not underwater and then sell ASAP.

Could she get your sister to take over the payments on the truck? Either by just paying your mom every month or by taking her own personal loan?

Is a HELOC available?

I was worried the dealership would be useless. :-/

I'd love for my sister to be responsible and take over the payments, but no--that probably won't happen. I don't even think she can afford the $600 payments, honestly. Maybe some headway can be made here in the form of partial payments.

I'll ask her about HELOC. I'm willing to bet it's not an option for her, but it's an idea!

Even making payments to not be underwater and then selling sounds like a better plan than just sucking it up and keeping the vehicles.

Thanks :-D

Greg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1448
  • Location: Olympia, WA, USA
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2014, 10:24:30 PM »
So the big question is why is she financing your sister's vehicle?

nikki

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
  • Age: 37
  • Location: South Korea
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2014, 10:26:31 PM »
So the big question is why is she financing your sister's vehicle?

Stupid.

That's the short answer.

The long answer is something about how it's a graduation gift, a going-to-college gift (she already dropped out, though), and something else I forget gift. I'm not even sure they know.

fidgiegirl

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1082
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2014, 10:28:24 PM »
I'm not so sure a HELOC is a wise move either - if she's having trouble paying, she's having trouble paying, and then it's the roof over her head securing the loan rather than some ol' car?  A lot worse to be homeless than without wheels if the bank comes for their collateral.

I wish I had a better idea . . . Good luck to your mom on this one.  :(

gooki

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2917
  • Location: NZ
    • My FIRE journal
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2014, 11:03:38 PM »
What happens if she stops paying?

LibraTraci

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 67
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2014, 01:56:14 AM »
Just a thought, but:  it seems to me that the underwater car loans are just the outward manifestation of the problem.  Look at these things and recognize that they are just symptoms.

The real heart of the problem is that here are two people exercising poor judgment, exercising little restraint (or the wrong kinds of restraint), and engaging in impulsive behaviors rather than long-term thinking.  Even if you try to help them figure out the smartest moves from here, you are likely wasting your time until they are willing to address the underlying problem.

My own mother started going down a bad path when I was still in my mid-twenties (over ten years ago).  One of the biggest mistakes she made was that she *did* take out a HELOC, which she was then unable to pay back, and then wound up losing a house that she had owned free and clear after her divorce.  So, I would second the person who said that the HELOC is probably not a wise move.

Mostly, my point here is, these are deep-seated problems, and they are not *your* problems.  We want to help other people change for the better, or at least protect them from their own stupidity sometimes, but there is very little we can do besides hope that they will find the courage and the wisdom to turn things around.  No enabling allowed from you!  (Read as much as you can about enabling.  It is what you *don't* want to become.)
 
They've got their own work to do.  You've got your own work to do.  I know how tempting it is to try to help family members put out fires -- I"ve been there.  There is really no substitute for them hitting their own rock bottom, and then turning it around with their own hard work. 



horsepoor

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3497
  • Location: At the Barn
  • That old chestnut.
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2014, 06:47:12 AM »
Do you know what the interest rates are?  If they're more than 3% or so, it maybe worth it to her to go to a credit union and see if they can refinance the vehicles with a more favorable interest rate.  Then, she keeps making the same payments, but would be eating away at the principal more, so she can get out from under these albatrosses more quickly.

If they're already on some 0% or other low financing deal, there's probably nothing to be done but get the LTV down so she can sell.

Greg

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1448
  • Location: Olympia, WA, USA
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2014, 09:44:29 AM »
My only advice is to try and think of this as not your problem.  If asked, offer advice and/or sympathy, and suggest getting rid of the sister's car for starters.  Maybe she could talk to the lender and ask for different financing, and that the alternative is default.  Not sure if that would benefit her or not.

By "upside down" I assume you mean the cars are not worth what's left owing on them, so I'm not sure even selling them would help.

nikki

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
  • Age: 37
  • Location: South Korea
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2014, 05:13:01 PM »
Do you know what the interest rates are?  If they're more than 3% or so, it maybe worth it to her to go to a credit union and see if they can refinance the vehicles with a more favorable interest rate.  Then, she keeps making the same payments, but would be eating away at the principal more, so she can get out from under these albatrosses more quickly.

If they're already on some 0% or other low financing deal, there's probably nothing to be done but get the LTV down so she can sell.

My mom stopped giving me details, so I'm guessing she's tired of trying to figure things out for the time being. I don't know what the interest rates are, but she's been paying only interest for two years on my sister's truck apparently (not sure if that's hyperbolic). I guarantee the interest rates are high. I'll suggest this to her, too.

I think she'll just suck it up and keep the cars, as silly as I still think that is. Her choice!

Thanks for all the ideas, though. I've given her a list of options that maybe she hadn't considered (although I agree that HELOC is probably too dangerous for her), and that's the best I can do.

You're all right that this isn't my problem. She's opened the forum for talking about her finances because she sees how well I have my shit together; I think she just wants a positive role model for finances. Which is sort of weird because I'm her daughter.

The absolute best money lessons I've gotten from my family are to not do it like they do ;-)

Mori

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2014, 06:50:17 PM »
If she can sacrifice your sister's car and use that to get back to her own solid footing, I'd go for it. If that's selling it and trying to make up the difference with a (smaller) loan, or talking to someone about repo repercussions for just that car, that's the only other thing I can suggest.

I'd also refer her to the National Foundation for Credit Counseling (http://www.nfcc.org/) if they have one near her. She may just not be comfortable talking to you, her daughter, about the total extent of the problem.

Good luck! It's painful to watch from the outside, I know. I've got a slow-moving train wreck happening in my family.

nikki

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
  • Age: 37
  • Location: South Korea
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2014, 07:30:58 PM »
Ouchies... interest rates are 6.9% for my sister's truck and 7.25% for her SUV.

But major progress: my sister is taking on her entire car payment. Hallelujah!

Milspecstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 538
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2014, 08:12:06 PM »
Those are insane interest rates!

If it were me I would sell the cars asap and buy a MMM car, taking the hit on the difference.  That's painful but otherwise you will have to spend many more dollars covering the gap which will never disappear between amount owed and actual worth, in addition to the large interest rate.

soccerluvof4

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7168
  • Location: Artic Midwest
  • Retired at 50
    • My Journal
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2014, 06:49:07 AM »
^+1. Those interest rates are nuts.  At the very least I think your Mom needs to have a heart to heart with your sister and say " while i wanted to do something for you this is putting me in the poorhouse so you need to start to anti up or risk losing the car". I am sure your sister had some influence in the purchase of the car so she should do what she has to do to step in and take some responsibility. But as others have said say what you can once and then its not your problem. I know that sounds harsh but I had a mom like that and you cant change people like that. They have to want to. So its not something you should feel guilty about its simply not your problem.

Mori

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 130
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2014, 07:54:56 AM »
Ouchies... interest rates are 6.9% for my sister's truck and 7.25% for her SUV.

But major progress: my sister is taking on her entire car payment. Hallelujah!

Just a caution--make sure your mom keeps an eye on the payments your sister is making. If she misses/skips payments, it'll effect your mom. Best to know that early on before it hits repo stage so that your mom has a bit more time to figure out options.

Weedy Acres

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 280
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2014, 12:57:36 PM »
Good that sis is starting to pay her own way.  Have mom keep paying $600/month toward sis's truck until it's no longer underwater, then sell it.   Or probably better yet, pay down her own vehicle till its sellable, then sell and downsize. 

Hopefully sis won't deadbeat on hers.

GregO

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 125
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2014, 06:01:19 PM »
One point of emphasis that hasn't been made here: there's a big difference between paying interest on $50,000 than on $12,000.  So if she does sell both of the cars and has to take out a loan to pay the difference, she's paying A LOT less interest on the borrowed money. 

I'd guess that she's currently paying close to $300 in interest every month based on what you've said.  If she got a loan to cover the $12,000 difference, even if she was paying 20% interest, she'd still only be paying $200/month.  She'd still probably have to have a car and she'd be paying interest on that as well, so a 20% loan isn't a good idea.  But the thing to point out is that she is paying a lot of interest because the loans are so big.  Here's a theoretical solution:

Buy a used car on credit - $5,000 @ 4% for 5 years: $92 / month
Personal loan - $12,000 @ 10% for 5 years: $255 / month
If she maintains $1200/month payment, both loans are paid off in a little over a year.

I don't know if 10% is a reasonable rate she could get for the loan, I've fortunately never had to investigate that.  But the loan rate isn't the point (or any of the other numbers I chose), the idea is that anything she can do to make the balances smaller on those loans will pay off VERY quickly.  And there's tons of ways to improve upon that.  Maybe sell some stuff around the house or find other ways to raise a little bit of cash to keep that personal loan smaller.  The idea is simply to get the debt as small as possible.  That's what's killing the financial situation.

nikki

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
  • Age: 37
  • Location: South Korea
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2014, 03:42:57 AM »
Thanks so much, everyone. I love this community for such thoughtful responses!

nikki

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
  • Age: 37
  • Location: South Korea
Re: My Mom Has Two Underwater Car Loans--HELP!
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2014, 10:07:40 PM »
Update on this situation:

I presented my mom a variety of options, and she has ultimately decided to continue paying for these ridiculous cars and simply not trade them in every couple years like she usually would.

Her debt repayment plan is going to take her over 6 years, and by then she plans to own her house, the cars, and have her medical and consumer debts paid off. She owes over $200k total, and I know she could pay it off much quicker with her salary of over $100k, but at least she has a plan and is making mostly conscious decisions (rather than auto-piloting everything like usual). I suppose that's better than nothing!

I need to keep reminding myself that ultimately this is none of my business. Her problem.