Capped out in pay grade

[tips^up]

I am an Appraiser III in my local county's Assessors office.  At the Christmas party, in front of everyone, my boss announced that I was getting a promotion.  This was very exciting, as it has been high stress and long hours and I felt like my hardwork was being recognized.  I had also been contemplating breaking free - starting my own fee appraisal business (1 man shop, work from home, low overhead, be my own boss, flexibility w baby on the way).  Then, during our annual reviews in February, I got top marks across every category.  3% performance raises were approved - they told me I earned 5%, "more than anyone else in the department."  This was a great honor and my dreams of starting my own business have been quieted.  They also commented that the raise was kind of irrelevant, as the promotion would be getting processed.

My raise went through, but only at 1%.  Promotion still has not happened.  Feelings of resentment have been growing and communication has been poor with supervisors.  Turns out 5% really meant you get 1% to max out of the current category and a 1-time check for a couple grand.  I understand now, but I don't know why this hadn't been communicated clearly, that 5% is not what's actually happening and to expect 1% because I'm maxed out in my category.

I also prompted the promotion paperwork to get processed.  I do not like the terms.  They are offering a slight pay bump, but going exempt (ie - salary instead of hourly) and nearly maxed out in the next category.  This is upsetting because I log a lot of OT - part of how I've performed so well and why I thought these things were being recognized.  I would prefer hourly, not salary.  Also, they said if 3% is approved again next year, I'd get about 2.5% and be maxed out once again, after only 1 year in the new category.

It's frustrating because I feel like I've been on the hook, as this has been dangled in front of me for months and resentment has grown.  Our first baby is due in July, so I should have taken the first few months of this year setting up my own business, but held out hope that they would agree to my terms - they have not.  Now I feel like I'm screwed and have lost leverage and even if I take promotion, there's no future after a 2.5% bump next year.  I think the solution is striking out on my own but don't know what to do.  I'm thinking I should accept the new position for now, as it is a bit more money, take 12 weeks of FMLA with the baby, use all my personal and sick leave, and not come back.  I think there is a possibility of contract work with the county - everyone can be replaced, but at least through the end of the year, they'll be in a tough place without me.  Mostly ranting here, frustrated for sure.

Anyone ever been in a job that capped out in pay grade?  Did you sit at the ceiling under FIRE?  Accepting this career move will likely lengthen my time til FIRE.  It's a decent job, 6% 401 match, just wish the pay would keep up with the market.

[Telecaster]

Anyone ever been in a job that capped out in pay grade?  Did you sit at the ceiling under FIRE?  Accepting this career move will likely lengthen my time til FIRE.  It's a decent job, 6% 401 match, just wish the pay would keep up with the market.

Now you know how much your efforts are appreciated.  Which is to say, they aren't.  Make plans accordingly. 

[MsPeacock]

I left my last job, taking a slight pay cut, because the old job I was maxed out at my pay grade and promotions were not forthcoming (ridiculous bureaucracy - no one willing to do the work to create a position on paper that reflected the actual work being done in order to allow additional pay). Numerous other workers were in the same boat and basically working above paygrade w/ no hopes of any increase or promotion. I left for a job with regular annual increases and opportunities for advancement. It may just be time to go. If your work doesn't value you enough to make an effort to promote you and pay you accordingly, you have the information you need to make a decision about what will be in your best interest. They may be doing as little as possible to retain you.

[tips^up]

Thanks for your advice!  It's obviously a tough decision.  I've been here for 8 years and went from broke broke, to researching early retirement on MMM.  The stable job with matching 401 has been good in many ways, but I feel I may have outgrown this job (personally and career-wise).

When I was making my well-supported argument for more pay, my boss said, "You can't make more than me!"  Which is ironic, because I was here until 10 pm last night (racking up time and half...), and he hasn't worked more than 20 hours a week this year.  It really rubbed me wrong.  With the timing of this all, and my completion of some major reports and projects, I feel like I've been used and lost leverage.

We live in a tiny mountain town so I fear the local job market isn't great (tons of jobs, but I'd need 3 to pay the mortgage).  I feel like starting my own appraisal business is the most logical path but its leaving stability for the unknown and the thought of a lot of hardwork and more stress.  FIRE would be a lot more easy if we each got $1M to start, rather than having to waste years doing shit we don't like to save it up!

[thd7t]

A similar situation forced me into FIRE.  My original boss left, they asked me to step in as interim director and encouraged me to apply for the position. So I did both my boss's job and my own for several months.  They did not offer me the position, but I kept doing it while they reopened the search.  In the meantime, HR was regrading all positions, and our org was being re-registered as a different type of entity.  I was told I would be getting a "promotion" to assistant director.  That kept dragging out.  15 months into it all I was given a 3% raise (basically cost of living for our office) and small bonus (around 2500) -- this was after having done two jobs for 15 months! -- and a couple of weeks later they gave me my new contract which upped my required work hours to 40 from 35 per week.  Oh, and when I asked how much of a raise I would get once the "promotion" went through they finally disclosed that I was already above my paygrade in the current role, and at the top of the one between that and director.  Meanwhile they'd hired a guy in over my head and were giving him 40k more in salary + extensive benefits I didn't qualify for at my level. There were other things going on that pushed me to leave, too, but even if there weren't I would have had a hard time staying.  I did more to expand the office/our funding in the 16 months i was "fake director" than the guy who they hired has done in 4 years.  Very glad I wasn't forced to watch that close up (while being expected to do half his job for 50% of the pay and benefits....

In your case, I think staying to take advantage of FMLA makes sense.

I worry that I'm currently in the early phases of this process.  I'm in the interim position (only 3 months so far) and have been working on developing my office while doing my job and now there's a reorganization on the way.  The full time position hasn't even been posted, yet.  It's a slog and it's stressful.

[formerlydivorcedmom]

You might talk to HR about county policy.

In one of my previous companies, they did the same thing - once you reached the cap for your level, you got your annual raise in a lump-sum payout.  This meant that it didn't compound each year.  HOWEVER, if you were capped out, HR would start asking why you hadn't been promoted to another category, and management had to have a good reason to hold you back.

My manager and director tried to use this policy to my advantage.  The VP didn't like me and rejected a promotion I'd been promised all year.  The director got me a raise that capped me out and said that next year HR would push the issue and the VP would have to promote me by the following year.  I smiled and accepted the raise and started job hunting.  Four months later I had another job and everyone wondered why.  If the working conditions had been better, I might have stayed and played the game, but I was a tad bit angry.

It's possible that your boss can give you a path for what levels he thinks you'll be at in 1, 2, 3, and 5 years, and that they are playing this game to make sure you get promoted into a new category every year (rather than try to jump up more than 1 level at a time, which is sometimes against policy).  It's possible that they can agree that if you are salaried your hours will be drastically reduced - and that may be a great thing with a new baby.

And it's possible that because it's county government you'll never be paid what you deserve to be.

[partgypsy]

There is something similar happening with my little brother and his job, though this is through my mom so this may not be exactly right.
Previously he worked on a contractor basis (which he liked) at one company, then moved to be a full time employee at 70k at a different company. He is a good employee. Recently they assigned "stars" to employees that are particularly good at basically not messing up (not having to do call backs) and he was given one of only two stars in the entire region. They have highly praised his work and work ethic, and already has employees with many more years of experience that he now trains by taking them with him on jobs. anyways they had a meeting at the company, and they said their accountants told them they cannot be paying people the way they are. In his contract he is listed as full time, 50 hours a week. I do not know if he was listed as exempt or nonexempt.  He works between 43-50 hours. His pay also does not include the first hour of his transportation time (he has to drive to and from various jobs and to the site to pick up materials). Despite being on salary and  ft they still have them fill out detailed timesheets. They also have the work vehicle monitored so they know when they come and leave work sites as well as their speeds. If you ever go more than 5 miles above the speed limit you get fined.
So they said that in their contracts they are supposed to be working 50 hours a week and they will retroactively take away any monies worked less than 50 hours, even though the company sets their jobs and work schedules. My lil brother NEVER works less than full time. He's never gone below 43 hours a week any given week. Can they do this?

2nd going forward they say that everyone is forced to work 40 hours a week, there will be no overtime, so whatever people are being paid, they will get 4/5 of that amount to adjust for difference in hours. So instead of getting paid 70K he will now be paid 56K a year, which is a significant cut. He is justifiably upset at this considering that he was doing a great job and recognized for it, and is a model employee. He would not have originally taken the job for that salary. Unfortunately there is not much in the way of switching in terms of this particular specialty, unless he chose to go it alone and become a contractor and build his own business. His daughter is going to college next year so he really doesn't want to be out of work.


can they do that? And how should he handle this with his employer? He doesn't know if he should talk to them individually, or try to have everyone talk to them as a group.

Also the company is doing well (if anything expanding) so it doesn't seem to be a financial reason. Their excuse was that was an accounting reason.

[iris lily]

 Government jobs have hard caps,  that is a fact.

No matter how well you do your job if you stay in the same paygrade at some point you will be up against the ceiling and there’s really nothing that will be done although it sounds like your employers are dancing around some options that I couldn’t really follow what they were,  but in general I just wanna say sure. Government jobs  have ceilings, you are not in a unique situation.

I supervised people for many years who were at thei ceiling of their paygrade. That doesnt mean that they were not excellent employees, but the top of the pay grade is a hard stop. Those pay grades should be regularly reviewed and incrementally raised, most likely.

 I felt sorry that we couldn’t offer the really excellent employees at the top of their paygrade more money. But the flipside of that is I  knew many of these same employees were very very comfortable in their job and they did not have the get up and go to go out and seek another higher paying job let alone start their own business as you are talking about.

[frugaliknowit]

Decisions like this are personal, but personally, I can't imagine jumping from non-exempt to exempt for a 1% raise and small one-time bonus.  No way.  I'd probably decline the promotion and just stick with hourly, knowing I'd make far more anyway.  Though few would likely understand that, especially bosses.  Personally, I might go back and tell him to hold the promotion and raise until he can bump me 10%, otherwise I'm much better off staying hourly because I work so much more. 

This all depends on your individual circumstances, job terms, risk tolerance, and bosses, of course.



Compare your actual pay now to your pay salaried realizing that that salary is your max (unless there's a nice bonus structure too, but many places lack that).  This is one reason why cops and many other hourly workers can make much more than advertised.  They can't depend on that - it may dry up - but when work is plentiful they can really bank it. 

Best of luck to you in figuring it out!

+1

My $.02:  Do what's in your best interest.  Also, don't deal with or ask HR any questions.  They will say anything to protect your employer and stab you in the back when you are not looking.  Yes, I am jaded:)

[Michael in ABQ]

As a former appraiser who left the fee world for a government job, the grass is not always greener on the other side. I was a commercial appraiser and I assume you do residential if you're in a small mountain town. Residential appraisers have been under pressure for a while between Appraisal Management Companies taking a cut of fees and big data making appraisers a bit less necessary every day - though that's more applicable to large homogeneous markets such as Phoenix or Las Vegas.

I'd suggest appraiserforums.com good community and you'll probably find some good advice for going out on your own. One option could be to start working on the side outside your county, so as not to have any conflicts of interest. I've read about other assessors taking that route. May, or may not be practical if it's a big county and you'd need to travel a ways for every inspection. Still, another $300-400 for doing one appraisal a week could add up and help you get started before taking the plunge to go independent.

For me the constant deadlines and long nights and weekends to meet them weren't worth the flexibility and income. I took a job with the federal government and I make more now with a lot less stress and things like paid time off and holidays that hadn't existed as 100% commission only. I was on the last step towards MAI designation but I'm going to take my license inactive this week rather than spending hundreds on renewal. It was an interesting career but ultimately my perfectionist tendencies meant I was never going to earn 6-figures like my peers who could just grind out reports at a lower (but acceptable) quality.

[tips^up]

As a former appraiser who left the fee world for a government job, the grass is not always greener on the other side. I was a commercial appraiser and I assume you do residential if you're in a small mountain town. Residential appraisers have been under pressure for a while between Appraisal Management Companies taking a cut of fees and big data making appraisers a bit less necessary every day - though that's more applicable to large homogeneous markets such as Phoenix or Las Vegas.

I'd suggest appraiserforums.com good community and you'll probably find some good advice for going out on your own. One option could be to start working on the side outside your county, so as not to have any conflicts of interest. I've read about other assessors taking that route. May, or may not be practical if it's a big county and you'd need to travel a ways for every inspection. Still, another $300-400 for doing one appraisal a week could add up and help you get started before taking the plunge to go independent.

For me the constant deadlines and long nights and weekends to meet them weren't worth the flexibility and income. I took a job with the federal government and I make more now with a lot less stress and things like paid time off and holidays that hadn't existed as 100% commission only. I was on the last step towards MAI designation but I'm going to take my license inactive this week rather than spending hundreds on renewal. It was an interesting career but ultimately my perfectionist tendencies meant I was never going to earn 6-figures like my peers who could just grind out reports at a lower (but acceptable) quality.

Thanks for the reply Michael!  Great to hear experience from someone in the industry, and I can relate to many things you're saying.  I was in fee appraisal for 3 years before taking the county job, and this stability has admittedly been nice.  I am a CG and very close to getting the MAI (demo just accepted, only thing left is experience log, hopefully next month).

I've been specializing in resort hotels, golf courses and ski resorts, and offering expert testimony, so I've gotten great experience on interesting and very complex property types - something I probably will not be able to do in the fee world.  As you said, I'd likely do a lot of res, as that's where most of the resort RE value is (except for institutional investment grade properties that hire international firms).  Some of the high value homes here get appraisal rates of $1000+, and we're removed enough from Denver to not have a ton of competition.  But all your gripes about fee appraisal are real fears I've considered.  I also relate to your perfectionist comment.  My former fee "mentor" (very loose term with this guy) was doing 20 res appraisals a week.  His quality was terrible, but he was making great money.

Ideally, I would be a stay-at-home Dad, delivering five $1000 reports per month, or 1 big commercial report per month, from my laptop with little overhead, with essentially an unlimited ceiling depending how hard I wanted to work.  But I'd rather work less, for more money.  Anyone hiring for a job that meets that description?

[civil4life]

Working for the government there is always the issue with the hard fast rules.  caps, grades, etc.

I finally got my appraisal that was due Dec. 1 which had a guaranteed 2% merit increase.  I will get back pay, but it is definitely frustrating.

I say take advantage of the perks FMLA and maxing the 401k.  You can use the time to get your own shop started.

The only thing I would be concerned about is conflict of interest until you put in your resignation.

[sol]

My experience as a government employee was that people who were good at their jobs maxed out their grade after a few years and stopped getting raises, while people who were famously bad at their jobs failed upwards into management jobs and got huge pay raises.  But only because they job hopped out of their current position description into a new one.

You could try that pathway, even though it sounds like you're good at your job.  Talk to your boss about moving up, about what opportunities or openings you might apply for.  I see no harm in telling that person that you're unhappy being maxed out and want a new challenge that comes with new compensation, since you've clearly nailed it in your current position and can still do more.  If you get push back on that idea then you might consider striking out on your own, but I'd at least give them the opportunity to keep you first.

[Cassie]

I was a state employee and if you stayed in your position you got maxed out.  My bigger goal was getting my pension.

[Car Jack]

I think you've realized the salary trap.  In my first engineering job, we had some good technicians who would come in when we did on weekends when a project crunch was on.  Of course, since they were hourly, they'd be working for time and a half, while we were working for free.  Well, one of these techs had been going to school nights to get his Bachelors.  He finally did and pushed his management to promote him to Engineer.  They did and he became salary.  Only then did he realize that he screwed himself.  He took a 60% reduction in overall pay.  Before he could get promoted to the next level, the company headed into the toilet and he was laid off.

From your description, and others' comments, I'd think the ideal way to go is to stay in your hourly position and just put in whatever overtime you'd like to.  Set up your own business to do work outside your covered area and limit that.  You're not going to want to be gone all the time with a kid.

[Chrissy]

can they do that? And how should he handle this with his employer? He doesn't know if he should talk to them individually, or try to have everyone talk to them as a group.

They can't take away pay retroactively, but they can change the terms of his employment at any time going forward.  As a star employee, he should probably talk to his manager one-on-one first; he might be able to negotiate above and beyond what the group could get.  It's really helpful if he has any part of his original offer in writing (an email counts).  He should approach it as wanting to give the company a chance to make good on their promise to him.  They can pay him however they want, but they have to pay him $70k as promised.  It's really hard to negotiate anything, though, if you're not willing to quit, therefore...

He should go back to his previous employer and see if they're interested in him at, say, $77-85k.  He has more experience and skills, now, after all.

Their line about this being an accounting issue is total bullshit.  Tell him not to even debate that; it's a lie and a trap.  If he can't do the same level of work in 40hrs that he did in 43-50, then they'll ding him on his evaluations, then the have justification for making further cuts.  It's a death spiral.

[tips^up]

Thanks for your opinions.  I requested a meeting today to discuss and boss said how about next week, when you've really thought about our offer.  Since he turned down my meeting offer, I responded with the email:

"I guess one of my big questions is where do you see me in 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, 5 years?

I'm at the top of my pay range right now.  The new job description reads like basically what I have been doing the past few years.  I dislike going from non-exempt to exempt.  If I apply for this position, I will be capped by pay range next year.  I feel like this caps my growth within our office and within the organization, and I would like to know where you see my future going?  These are important questions to me as I consider the position."

[wenchsenior]

My experience as a government employee was that people who were good at their jobs maxed out their grade after a few years and stopped getting raises, while people who were famously bad at their jobs failed upwards into management jobs and got huge pay raises.  But only because they job hopped out of their current position description into a new one.

Truth.

Another irritating quirk of DH's gov't job is that getting a 'promotion' in terms of position and additional responsibilities (supervising your group of scientists) does not come with an associated pay raise. Instead, the pay raises are applied for, though not necessarily received, on a set schedule according to length of tenure.  Although your additional workload as a supervisor counts as points towards your next raise, it doesn't count much at all given the differences in responsibilities. DH has also had to step into that supervisory role for more than a year when the previous supervisor quit on no notice.  That type of extra workload also gains you almost no points for pay raises, come review time.

[civil4life]

One other consideration is coming in with some ammo for the meeting.  One of my friends is potentially going to be in the same position.

Our local government posts all the employees base salaries publicly.  Plus there are salary calculators online.  Put in your details and get a report.

Then lay out your responsibilities and how they have changed.

I think it would be important to look at your current position.  What is the work required of that position?  Anything extra or above that pay grade you could state that you believe it is above your pay grade and that you will no longer do it without the appropriate compensation.

[partgypsy]

can they do that? And how should he handle this with his employer? He doesn't know if he should talk to them individually, or try to have everyone talk to them as a group.

They can't take away pay retroactively, but they can change the terms of his employment at any time going forward.  As a star employee, he should probably talk to his manager one-on-one first; he might be able to negotiate above and beyond what the group could get.  It's really helpful if he has any part of his original offer in writing (an email counts).  He should approach it as wanting to give the company a chance to make good on their promise to him.  They can pay him however they want, but they have to pay him $70k as promised.  It's really hard to negotiate anything, though, if you're not willing to quit, therefore...

He should go back to his previous employer and see if they're interested in him at, say, $77-85k.  He has more experience and skills, now, after all.

Their line about this being an accounting issue is total bullshit.  Tell him not to even debate that; it's a lie and a trap.  If he can't do the same level of work in 40hrs that he did in 43-50, then they'll ding him on his evaluations, then the have justification for making further cuts.  It's a death spiral.

Sorry, some of this DID get garbled talking to my Mom. I talked to my brother. 1) They are not making any retroactive changes to his pay. His original contract stated that they guarantee paying him 70K for a 50 hour week. Anything above that he would get overtime. The way they calculate his hours, however is often when he clocks into the location, and clocking out when he leaves the location. this hits especially hard when he is traveling out of state; for example the entire time he is traveling including travel time taking flight, travel in work van to locations, staying at hotel is not considered work time. The first year he clocked in long hours, because he misunderstood how to be clocking in, and he was going a lot of flights in and out to different states to do installation work. Now that he is doing less travel and clocking in the way they requested, he is right around 40 hours a week.

The NEW deal is a very slight raise on base pay, but instead of being paid for 50 hours, they only guarantee (pay) for 40 hours. Which works out to a 22% pay cut. They will pay for overtime, but he feels that the way they have calculate his time and he has to travel to jobs, it will be close to impossible to achieve overtime.
His view is, that he does NOT want to go back to being a contractor. They said, this is how it is set up, let us know if you are losing money. So he is going to be aggressive in trying to get overtime (he will have to consistently work 47.5 hours a week in order to match last year's salary) and if it doesn't happen he will re-approach. He is disappointed because he was even thinking of asking for a raise, but didn't because he hasn't been taking on as many travel jobs. He basically will have to really bust his butt to not lose money compared to last year.  Personally, I think he should since he is now considered one of more skilled/experienced members, that he should request a larger increase in base pay.

[tips^up]

I went in and had another meeting regarding the "promotion."  I asked where they saw me within the organization in 1 year, 2, 3, 5.  They said they've never been asked that question before and its up to me.  I just said, I'm capped now.  The promotion you're offering isn't actually a promotion because I would lose OT, flex time, and (with no OT) likely make less than I am now, so it's kind of a disappointing offer.

They said the salary offer is based on similar counties, X and Y.  I happen to have X and Y's similar position printed off with me, and their pay range ceiling is $15-20k greater than what is being offered.  Boss said he thinks that me having this info is being aggressive...He keeps insisting its not about the money, we should just do this because we like to do it and its our civic duty.  Well, you're telling me you compared me to X and Y, here's X and Y and they're very different than what is being offered!  The whole thing feels contentious at this point.  Kinda sucks.  But the promotion would actually be a bad move for me.  He keeps saying the right things, we don't want you to go...but seems to keep implying that if its about the money, I should move on.  Wish I would have known this around the beginning of the year.  I'd have my ducks in a row and have my own business up and running.  Now baby due date is in 2 months and I don't think the timing is right for a major move like this.  Sucks.

[Chrissy]

...take 12 weeks of FMLA with the baby, use all my personal and sick leave, and not come back. 

Do this, but don't take the promotion.  You pointed out yourself that it's not in your best interest:

The promotion you're offering isn't actually a promotion because I would lose OT, flex time, and (with no OT) likely make less than I am now, so it's kind of a disappointing offer.

I love that it's not aggressive if he lies to you, but it's totally out of line if you call him on it.  Your boss is a manipulative dick.

[sol]

Your boss is a manipulative dick.

Yes, but remember that he's a manipulative dick who is trying to do a job.  In this case, his job is to keep his best employees happy and productive while not having any real incentives to offer in return.  In that situation, bosses like to dangle things like titles and "promotions" without pay bumps so that the employee will feel important and valued, without actually costing the company anything extra.  They like to make it about your commitment or your duty or your self actualization, anything to motivate you other than more money.

The boss doesn't want conflict.  He's not trying to be contentious, he's trying to keep you working hard.  That's his job.

I think you should look for another job in one of those neighboring counties that pays more.  Then take him the offer and tell him to beat it by 10%.  I suspect he'll wish you luck in your new job, because it sure doesn't sound like he has any interest in paying you more.

[civil4life]

The only other thing to consider is possibly trying to get other work life balance incentives that he can offer.

Also, is there a possible argument for getting another position approved.

Otherwise, you know where you stand and can make the decision that is best for you.

[iris lily]

 Because the OP is so very focused on the job he is in right now and having that job pay him what he believes he is worth in the marketplace, and yet taking advantage of all the perks that come with an employer, especially a government employer,  I suggest a couple of things:

If the next county over truly pays  $15,000-$20,000 more for the same job, the very same job, Seems like that is the place to go for employment. Sure, they may not have a position open right now but if the OP is the hotdog that he says he is, his reputation will proceed him and he will be number one in line for when a position does open up.

I think the OP also needs to check his assumptions about self-employment. We have a poster on this thread who could offer some advice if the OP would offer up his assumptions in numbers. By that I mean how many appraisals will he do in what time frame, how much would he earn, what are exprnses —are those assumptions reasonable? Real estate has certainly been on the rise in the last couple of years, but I know a lot of real estate professionals including appraisers who went belly up in the real estate downturn 10 years ago.

[tips^up]

Had meetings Friday and another yesterday.  We talked out some of the miscommunications we have had with this issue.  They agreed to maintain flex time (it was going away for exempt vs. non-exempt status).  By their math, pay increase over base pay (no OT or bonus) was substantial.  By my math, what I've actually earned in previous 3 years, it looked like an increase of less than $1k, for additional duties.  Thought about it a lot, talked about it with my wife.

Went in to boss's office today and said I would accept the position.  He said he was in the midst of working w HR to bump it up a level from P2 to P3, with a higher starting pay and $10k higher ceiling!  Basically got everything I wanted.  They were tough conversations, I hope there is no permanent damage to my relationship with boss, but he's a cool guy and we've generally got along for the past 8 years so I think we'll both move forward as a united team.

Thanks to the advice in here, and forcing those uncomfortable conversations, I gave myself a big raise in a category with a higher ceiling.  I also did quite a bit of research into starting my own business and will probably eventually do that...just not at this time, 1.5 months before we have our first baby!

[civil4life]

Great News!!! Congrats!

[mm1970]

Had meetings Friday and another yesterday.  We talked out some of the miscommunications we have had with this issue.  They agreed to maintain flex time (it was going away for exempt vs. non-exempt status).  By their math, pay increase over base pay (no OT or bonus) was substantial.  By my math, what I've actually earned in previous 3 years, it looked like an increase of less than $1k, for additional duties.  Thought about it a lot, talked about it with my wife.

Went in to boss's office today and said I would accept the position.  He said he was in the midst of working w HR to bump it up a level from P2 to P3, with a higher starting pay and $10k higher ceiling!  Basically got everything I wanted.  They were tough conversations, I hope there is no permanent damage to my relationship with boss, but he's a cool guy and we've generally got along for the past 8 years so I think we'll both move forward as a united team.

Thanks to the advice in here, and forcing those uncomfortable conversations, I gave myself a big raise in a category with a higher ceiling.  I also did quite a bit of research into starting my own business and will probably eventually do that...just not at this time, 1.5 months before we have our first baby!

I think for many bosses, their first reaction to someone asking for more money than they are offering - is basically what your boss did.  They are caught off guard, and the reaction is a (polite) fuck you.  Or they try to guilt you, or suggest they are being fair, etc.

Then they go off and take a look and think about it a bit and calm down.

This happened to my husband at his first post PhD job.  I sent him in before his review with research on what he should be paid.  When the boss gave him his first raise, husband said "that's too low, here's why, and here's my info on why".  Boss got all gruff and said "well, you are welcome to look somewhere else."  But, very next day, raise was magically doubled.  (I've done similar when I was a boss and trying to get raises for MY people - going in with salary info to the guy with the purse.)

Likewise, a former coworker overheard me recommending to other coworkers on how to get a raise.  Meaning, at our company with very distinct and defined levels - read up on the one you are in and the next one up.  Go into the review and ask "what do I need to do to get there?"  In this case, the boss said "huh", and a week later - promoted the guy and gave him a raise.