Food, inc. and mmm

[Icecreamarsenal]

I read food, inc., almost 10 years ago but recently watched the documentary on Netflix. I had a visceral, powerful reaction to it.
I suppose frugality may be at odds with buying organic; my take on it now is that cheap food is artificially cheap with sinister undertones.

Have any of you seen this documentary? It has changed the way I will purchase food, from now on.

[ketchup]

Apart from inhumane, immoral, unhealthy meat production, subsidized corn being sold at below the price of production and screwing everything up is the root of many of the issues in Food, Inc.  GMO soy from Monsanto is the other biggie.

Go to eatwild.com and find a local source of pastured meat, dairy, and eggs.  Anything you can't find locally can be found (at a premium of course) at Whole Foods or similar.  We have a CSA that we get meat and eggs from, and a nearby farm that we go to for dairy.  Another common route you can do is buy a chest freezer if you have the room (ours is in the garage) and buy a half-cow or half-pig from a farmer.  They'll give you all the cuts frozen and it'll come out way cheaper.  Our quarter-cow last year came out to around $4.50/lb after everything, and that included ground beef, steaks, roasts, all the beef we could want.  Far cheaper than $30/lb grass-fed ribeye steaks from Whole Paycheck.

Any animal products we can't get directly from farms (cream, butter, beef gelatin, etc) we'll do our homework and find retail products that are organically/ethically produced.  Kerrygold is a great brand of grass-fed butter, and our Costco stocks it for way cheaper than any grocery store near us. 

For seafood, exclusively buy wild-caught.  Salmon aren't supposed to eat corn either.

The best other way to "vote with your dollars" on the issues raised in Food, Inc. in my mind is to completely avoid corn and soy (and anything containing them, ie most processed foods or cheap sauces/similar).  Corn and soy products are also not exactly healthy.  If we get corn, it's from a local badass farmer that we know, and when we buy soy sauce we get certified non-GMO.  Neither are frequent purchases.

Organic produce (from the grocery store) is really quite low on the list.  We'll usually buy organic of the dirty dozen when we can (http://www.ewg.org/foodnews/), but that's about it.  Even the benefits of that can be argued.  USDA organic produce still has pesticides, just different ones.  If you find a CSA or farmer's market where you can actually talk to the farmer, you can get real organic produce without ANY pesticides or herbicides.  That's what we had last year with our veggie CSA (farmer moved at the end of the season) and it was wonderful.  We got fresh veggies straight out of the ground with a little dirt still on them.  You can also grow your own, even something small like a tomato plant or some herbs.  I hope to do more of that once we move next year.

Being healthy and ethical is very Mustachian.  The key is to optimize, as always.  Buy in bulk when you can, shop sales, make everything you possibly can from scratch, and don't buy junk/"snacks".  Don't be someone that grabs anything that has the "organic" label slapped on it, or organic sliced watermelon for $9/lb.  That's a great way to get your grocery bill well into four figures.  Frugality is only at odds with organic if you let it be.

[mrsggrowsveg]

Food Inc was one of our many inspirations to start our farm.  We don't buy exclusively organic, but do mostly and spend far less on groceries than others.  Our health is a huge priority for us so we aren't afraid to spend more.  Luckily, I am able to do lots of trading with fellow gardeners/farmers during this time of year so we get great food cheap.

[puglogic]

I do not skimp on healthy food.  Aside from not ingesting a lot of crap calories (sodas, processed foods, general ick)  I eat well and keep costs down as much as I can in the process, and call it good.  We grow and preserve a lot, buy organic where it makes sense, and support local agriculture even if it costs a little more.  It's worth it to us. And it works fine.

I actually did a food stamp challenge eating only food from Whole Foods last fall, and it cemented my belief that you really can eat in a mustachian way without buying the cheapest, nastiest food out there:  http://thegreenhedonist.com/2013/08/the-whole-foods-food-stamp-challenge/  We're thinking of doing it again this September but just expanding it to other sources of healthy food (the Whole Foods thing was just me being ms. crankypants)

[Christof]

It is interesting to see how the same film can reaffirm different aspects. I took it as a confirmation that any kind of processed convenience food is bad, both, organic and conventional, because they are full of sugar and fat.

On the organic food side I found it missed a certain balance, like that people demanded more and more tests on GMO which fewer and fewer companies could pay for until only one big monopolist remained. However, there is a correlation between mustachian people and those that value organic food, so my POV is certainly in a minority here.

[beltim]

Apart from inhumane, immoral, unhealthy meat production, subsidized corn being sold at below the price of production and screwing everything up is the root of many of the issues in Food, Inc.  GMO soy from Monsanto is the other biggie.

I agree overwhelmingly with what you said, and take particular delight in your noting that organic produce still uses pesticides.  However, I wonder why you're anti-GMO food – do you have any scientific reason to be?  Or are you only against genetically modified soy in particular - and if so, why?

[unix_kung_fu]

I knew about factory farms and some of the conditions of the animals and how vegetables were produced, but didn't realize it was that bad. I had just seen Forks over Knives not too long before that and went to an entirely plant-based diet as a result.

Organics do cost more at the register, yes, but what is the overall long-term costs for healthcare down the line?

Know this: some foods you don't always have to buy organic, and some you should always buy organic:

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/ALB00035/The-Dirty-Dozen-Foods-You-Should-Always-Buy-Organic.html - dirty dozen, always buy organic if possible
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/ART02984/Foods-You-Dont-Have-to-Buy-Organic.html - clean fifteen, usually don't need to bother paying the premium for organic

[Guardian]

Everyone should be vegan.

Watch "Cowspiracy"

Not that everything in any film is fully true, but shiiit we have made a mess of this planet for ourselves.

Don't consume animal products.

[lackofstache]

I just go local where I can, sometimes ends up cheaper, anyway. If I can see it before it's harvested, I'll eat it.

[ketchup]

Apart from inhumane, immoral, unhealthy meat production, subsidized corn being sold at below the price of production and screwing everything up is the root of many of the issues in Food, Inc.  GMO soy from Monsanto is the other biggie.

I agree overwhelmingly with what you said, and take particular delight in your noting that organic produce still uses pesticides.  However, I wonder why you're anti-GMO food – do you have any scientific reason to be?  Or are you only against genetically modified soy in particular - and if so, why?

I'm far more anti-Monsanto and anti-soy than anti-GMO.  The only soy I eat is in small amounts (we probably go through 3-4 bottles of soy sauce per year in a household of four adults) in non-GMO, non-Monsanto soy sauce.  And I'm anti-GMO-corn due to the ridiculous economics there mostly.

Yeah, people don't realize that you can be USDA organic and still use pesticides.  Our "organic" farmer that I mentioned was in no way certified by USDA, and he made that very clear.  He specifically said "I use no herbicides or pesticides of any kind."  Plenty of the time when I went to pick up our veggies, he'd be out there pulling weeds.  That man knew what he was doing.

[beltim]

Apart from inhumane, immoral, unhealthy meat production, subsidized corn being sold at below the price of production and screwing everything up is the root of many of the issues in Food, Inc.  GMO soy from Monsanto is the other biggie.

I agree overwhelmingly with what you said, and take particular delight in your noting that organic produce still uses pesticides.  However, I wonder why you're anti-GMO food – do you have any scientific reason to be?  Or are you only against genetically modified soy in particular - and if so, why?

I'm far more anti-Monsanto and anti-soy than anti-GMO.  The only soy I eat is in small amounts (we probably go through 3-4 bottles of soy sauce per year in a household of four adults) in non-GMO, non-Monsanto soy sauce.  And I'm anti-GMO-corn due to the ridiculous economics there mostly.

Yeah, people don't realize that you can be USDA organic and still use pesticides.  Our "organic" farmer that I mentioned was in no way certified by USDA, and he made that very clear.  He specifically said "I use no herbicides or pesticides of any kind."  Plenty of the time when I went to pick up our veggies, he'd be out there pulling weeds.  That man knew what he was doing.

Interesting.  Why are you anti-Monsanto if not for anti-GMO?  Also, you may be interested to read this thread: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-computational-genomics/

[unix_kung_fu]

The only soy I eat is in small amounts (we probably go through 3-4 bottles of soy sauce per year in a household of four adults)

Look into getting coconut aminos. It tastes like soy sauce but isn't soy, and has but a fraction of the sodium in it, and contains all the essential amino acids to boot.

[Thegoblinchief]

I'm going through this myself. Haven't found a great answer yet, but I think the best thing you can do is grow what you can and learn to preserve the harvest via dehydration, root cellaring, and canning.

It also takes some adjustment to the way you budget, because you suddenly start buying 50 LBS of strawberries in one month, a few months to a year's worth of meat another month... But hopefully it averages out to the same.

I don't particularly care about organic produce when I'm buying local. Regardless of the cultivation method, the stuff tastes worlds better and probably had much higher nutritional value to boot, since it hasn't been in transit for days/weeks.

[Beric01]

I'm going to have to shake things up a bit here.

First, on local food, read this freakonomics blog post. Basically, local food potentially hurts the environment more than it helps, and hurts global food output. It does not really save on transportation costs, and may even increase carbon emissions. Believe it or not, large-scale agriculture actually does a really good job of feeding people efficiently.

GMO's? I support the usage of them fully and completely. Sure I oppose corporations like Monsanto, mainly due to their idea of patenting seeds and suing innocent landowners. But GMO's allow for an unprecedented increase in the food supply, allowing for less starving people and less nature spoiled by farmland (an individual plot of land can be more efficient). Concern about safe is similar to concern about cell phone radiation, ie.e, baseless (no proven safety concerns). It's like opposing crop breeding and selection.

Organic? I have no interest in it. Numerous studies have not only questioned its health benefits, but also suggested it's more unsafe due to no pesticides. As far as worrying about pesticides? MMM's post on safety applies. People aren't dying left and right. You'll survive with a few pesticides. Stop being so paranoid! As a side effect, non-organic food allows me to do my grocery shopping in a more Mustachian way due to being cheaper.

[Cyclonium]

Having grown up on a farm (granted a much smaller scale, grass fed farm in Ireland), I learned from an early age what happened when animals were loaded onto the factory truck and have no particular disposition on raising animals solely for food. However, I feel Earthlings should be compulsory viewing for all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibuQ-J04eLQ

Myself and wife are both vegetarian. I am in it for health reasons, my wife a bit of both health and animal rights. That said, I am mostly vegan, whereas she will have considerable dairy/eggs!

I still amazes me that many growth promoters are used on animals here in the US which have been long banned back home in Europe. I am not super paranoid about pesticides and given I work in a plant manufacturing epoxy resins etc, my exposure to chemicals is rather large. That said I like to try minimise my exposure when possible.

Being an engineer, I am not particularly anti GMO as I see many benefits, however am strongly anti seed patent and above all 'suicide seeds' which truly send shivers through me!

[Icecreamarsenal]

I'm going to have to shake things up a bit here.

First, on local food, read this freakonomics blog post. Basically, local food potentially hurts the environment more than it helps, and hurts global food output. It does not really save on transportation costs, and may even increase carbon emissions. Believe it or not, large-scale agriculture actually does a really good job of feeding people efficiently.

GMO's? I support the usage of them fully and completely. Sure I oppose corporations like Monsanto, mainly due to their idea of patenting seeds and suing innocent landowners. But GMO's allow for an unprecedented increase in the food supply, allowing for less starving people and less nature spoiled by farmland (an individual plot of land can be more efficient). Concern about safe is similar to concern about cell phone radiation, ie.e, baseless (no proven safety concerns). It's like opposing crop breeding and selection.

Organic? I have no interest in it. Numerous studies have not only questioned its health benefits, but also suggested it's more unsafe due to no pesticides. As far as worrying about pesticides? MMM's post on safety applies. People aren't dying left and right. You'll survive with a few pesticides. Stop being so paranoid! As a side effect, non-organic food allows me to do my grocery shopping in a more Mustachian way due to being cheaper.

I remember listening to that freakonomics radio broadcast when it first aired.
Are your opinions formed in the context of having seen Food, Inc.?
Currently watching Forks over Knives and am currently debating dropping meat from my diet.

[Beric01]

I'm going to have to shake things up a bit here.

First, on local food, read this freakonomics blog post. Basically, local food potentially hurts the environment more than it helps, and hurts global food output. It does not really save on transportation costs, and may even increase carbon emissions. Believe it or not, large-scale agriculture actually does a really good job of feeding people efficiently.

GMO's? I support the usage of them fully and completely. Sure I oppose corporations like Monsanto, mainly due to their idea of patenting seeds and suing innocent landowners. But GMO's allow for an unprecedented increase in the food supply, allowing for less starving people and less nature spoiled by farmland (an individual plot of land can be more efficient). Concern about safe is similar to concern about cell phone radiation, ie.e, baseless (no proven safety concerns). It's like opposing crop breeding and selection.

Organic? I have no interest in it. Numerous studies have not only questioned its health benefits, but also suggested it's more unsafe due to no pesticides. As far as worrying about pesticides? MMM's post on safety applies. People aren't dying left and right. You'll survive with a few pesticides. Stop being so paranoid! As a side effect, non-organic food allows me to do my grocery shopping in a more Mustachian way due to being cheaper.

I remember listening to that freakonomics radio broadcast when it first aired.
Are your opinions formed in the context of having seen Food, Inc.?
Currently watching Forks over Knives and am currently debating dropping meat from my diet.

Yep, I've seen it and a number of related videos that were shown by my "English" teacher. Honestly, I just accept that it's a fact of life. Meat tastes good and is pretty cheap right now. More regulations are just going to increase the cost of meat. When we have so many humans dying globally right now due to lack of food, it's hard to want to increase that price still further for them because we feel sorry for some animals. And yes, I do think humans are more important than animals.

[bacchi]

First, on local food, read this freakonomics blog post. Basically, local food potentially hurts the environment more than it helps, and hurts global food output. It does not really save on transportation costs, and may even increase carbon emissions. Believe it or not, large-scale agriculture actually does a really good job of feeding people efficiently.

I think the freakonomics article misses the point of eating local. The article author obviously glommed on to some shallow definition of eating local and forgot the "sustainable" part. In other words, eating local isn't about trying to grow rice in a desert.

GMO's? I support the usage of them fully and completely. Sure I oppose corporations like Monsanto, mainly due to their idea of patenting seeds and suing innocent landowners. But GMO's allow for an unprecedented increase in the food supply, allowing for less starving people and less nature spoiled by farmland (an individual plot of land can be more efficient). Concern about safe is similar to concern about cell phone radiation, ie.e, baseless (no proven safety concerns). It's like opposing crop breeding and selection.

Yes, GMOs aren't inherently evil or bad.

Organic? I have no interest in it. Numerous studies have not only questioned its health benefits, but also suggested it's more unsafe due to no pesticides.

I've never heard of organics being more unsafe. Google shows nothing. Link to (peer reviewed) studies?

[Icecreamarsenal]

I'm going to have to shake things up a bit here.

First, on local food, read this freakonomics blog post. Basically, local food potentially hurts the environment more than it helps, and hurts global food output. It does not really save on transportation costs, and may even increase carbon emissions. Believe it or not, large-scale agriculture actually does a really good job of feeding people efficiently.

GMO's? I support the usage of them fully and completely. Sure I oppose corporations like Monsanto, mainly due to their idea of patenting seeds and suing innocent landowners. But GMO's allow for an unprecedented increase in the food supply, allowing for less starving people and less nature spoiled by farmland (an individual plot of land can be more efficient). Concern about safe is similar to concern about cell phone radiation, ie.e, baseless (no proven safety concerns). It's like opposing crop breeding and selection.

Organic? I have no interest in it. Numerous studies have not only questioned its health benefits, but also suggested it's more unsafe due to no pesticides. As far as worrying about pesticides? MMM's post on safety applies. People aren't dying left and right. You'll survive with a few pesticides. Stop being so paranoid! As a side effect, non-organic food allows me to do my grocery shopping in a more Mustachian way due to being cheaper.

I remember listening to that freakonomics radio broadcast when it first aired.
Are your opinions formed in the context of having seen Food, Inc.?
Currently watching Forks over Knives and am currently debating dropping meat from my diet.

Yep, I've seen it and a number of related videos that were shown by my "English" teacher. Honestly, I just accept that it's a fact of life. Meat tastes good and is pretty cheap right now. More regulations are just going to increase the cost of meat. When we have so many humans dying globally right now due to lack of food, it's hard to want to increase that price still further for them because we feel sorry for some animals. And yes, I do think humans are more important than animals.

That's one way to look at it.
I'm unsure where the question of human importance came from. Reminds me of the heart-wrenchingly uninspired conversations by 28-year-old grad students at the local bar.

Anyway, and correct me if I'm wrong, I thought that the reason meat is cheap is because of government subsidies of corn.

Also, world hunger? These neck snapping changes of course make it difficult to stay on topic. But considering that you feed more than 9 times the amount of calories to the cows than the amount of calories they end up with, it's hard to rationalize meat price with...humans dying globally right now.

Anyway, I'm not vegetarian, vegan, or ovopescatarian. And I likely never will be. I brought it up so that people could check out the movie and be more cognizant of where their food is from.

When cost per calorie is the only concern, meat is unlikely to enter the conversation. It's also completely elective. So as the amateur economists we all aspire to be, I do not mind paying for traits in my elective food choice that provide perceived value.

[Meggslynn]

Our food "industry" grosses me out. Factory farms send chills down my spine.

I only buy humane, free range, grass fed organic meat that was raised at farms I can visit and we eat meat only 2-4 times a week.
I buy the dirty dozen organic.
Dairy is organic as well.

Because of this (for my area) my grocery bill for a family of 3 is about $200 more than the average household here and I am okay with that. I am much happier eating my meal knowing where it came from and how it was treated before being slaughtered (seems weird that statement).

[Westoftown]

Everyone should see this documentary.  Its a life changer.

[projekt]

You do have to be careful to make sure you are reading beyond labels. "Organic" is a marketing term that applies specifically to pesticides, herbicides and antibiotics. It says nothing about sustainability, humane treatment, or healthfulness. The words on the packaging that talk about these other features are not usually backed by any objective standard.

There will be no antibiotics in any milk you buy. There are strict tests on every shipped tank. All dairy cattle who receive antibiotics are kept from producing milk for consumption until a minimum withdrawal time has elapsed, after which the antibiotic is no longer in the milk. The difference is that organic cows are then slaughtered, instead of returning to production. They go to the exact same slaughterhouses that the other dairy cows go to.

If you pay twice as much for organic milk hoping to get sustainably raised, humane milk that is more healthful, you would be overpaying, because all you are getting is milk from cows fed organic feed that have never been given antibiotics.

If you buy milk that come from cows who have not been treated with rBST, you get milk from less productive cows who probably have a longer lifespan and fewer health problems. But there is no difference in the milk.

If you visit the farm, see happy cows, and buy fresh, local milk, you may have found the sustainable, humane, more healthful milk, but at what cost? What other mammal drinks milk after weaning? Why drive your clown car or truck out to a farm to pay 2-5 times as much as you would have in the store to get something that is really unnecessary? You could have gotten the same nutrition from countless other foods that are available in harm-free ways at the supermarket.

[former player]

I've tried to avoid processed preserved foods ever since a school friend of mine, son of the local undertaker, told me that bodies last 2 to 3 days longer now before rotting than they used to, and that the word among undertakers was that the reason was all the preservatives in the food we eat.

[mikefixac]

Everyone should be vegan.

Watch "Cowspiracy"

Not that everything in any film is fully true, but shiiit we have made a mess of this planet for ourselves.

Don't consume animal products.

I saw the trailer on Youtube. What I found most interesting is how these big organizations such as Greeenpeace et al don't touch this subject. Looking forward to watching the whole movie.

In regards to GMO foods, I don't have a problem with them. Same with foods not local or organic. Most of my foods are bought at $.99 store.

[projekt]

The thing about the bodies (if more than an urban myth) is interesting. Imagine that you had two people, one of which took vitamin E every day and the other didn't. The first one would take longer to smell rancid after he died. There would be a similar result if one person at BHT-laden food. I don't think that we take in enough preservatives to prevent microbial putrefaction, though.

Whole foods are the way to go to avoid preservatives. Even natural preservatives are often just natural ways of getting to the synthetic preservatives we used to use (e.g. celery powder).

[mariejm]

Favorite foods:

Farmers market veggies! If you go in the afternoon they will give you great deals! Beets, beet greens, basil, chard, delicious with every meal

Basmati rice from Indian Grocery or Costco: I get the Royal Brand, $18 for 15 pounds. Eat about 5 days per week, I love rice because I have a cooker and it tastes great with different seasoning

Jasmine rice from Chinese Grocery or Costco: this is a higher glycemic rice that is used in Thailand - it is delicious! My favorite rice, but basmati is healthier. Same price. Great with sugar and homemade green thai curry sauce

Butter from the farmers market is cool.

Those are my insights for frugal eating in a local way

[req897]

Between a CSA and farmer's market, it's not difficult to eat locally, beyond organic, and humanely for a reasonable price. Industrial farming can't go on forever, I just hope it ends before we create a supervirus. We have already entered the post-antibiotic era after all. I avoid GMOs because they have not been tested on humans and our understanding of DNA is rather limited. We only recently learned how the environment permanently changes the DNA we pass on to our children, GMOs affect this too and we don't really know how.

Also, world hunger? These neck snapping changes of course make it difficult to stay on topic. But considering that you feed more than 9 times the amount of calories to the cows than the amount of calories they end up with, it's hard to rationalize meat price with...humans dying globally right now.

We produce more than enough food to feed the world, it's simply not profitable to do so. So instead, we throw out 30-50% of food made globally.

[Christof]

Anyway, and correct me if I'm wrong, I thought that the reason meat is cheap is because of government subsidies of corn.

In Europe corn doesn't get any special subsidies as food. In Germany it is subsidiesed for bio gas, so taken out of the food cycle. Meat is still incredibly cheap here.