Follow Ramit to the Dark Side?...

[Jimbo]

Hi guys!

I am still a junior mustachian, in a lot of aspects... So I am still in a phase of acquiring money and stashing it. I've got my expenses pretty much lined up, I am good at not spending, my pay checks go largely into my investments, so on so forth...

But! I am tempted at increasing my pay... Not to spend more, to stash more. Specifically, I would love to get rid of my mortgage, since I live in an expensive city... (I am already taking steps towards that, having put 20% down, killing 10% of the mortgage capital in Year 1)...

But more money, faster retirement, right?

So, on to my question... I've been following Ramit Sethi's stuff for a while... A lot of what he says feels like common knowledge, but some of what he says hits home, I think. And his step-by step approach to getting into freelancing/side income appeals to me....

He is opening a class right now. Should I follow him? What do you guys think? It's an expensive class, so there is a way to do the same without the expense, I guess. But I can see value in the offer.

What do you guys think?

[The Money Monk]

There is never anything wrong with increasing your income. In fact I would always recommend it. The only problem is when people increase their income solely to be able to increase their spending. If your goal is to build up enough money to retire, why WOULDN'T you try to increase your income?

As long as you maintain your savings rate you will be in great shape. So yeah, I say do whatever you can to increase your income, just keep your eye on your goals and don't get seduced by the get-rich-quick-and-buy-whatever-you-want crowd.

As far as paying for a seminar, I don't know the specifics. But most of those things are not much more than a motivational seminars. They may be great at instilling an entrepreneurial spirit, but they usually offer little in the way of how to enact a plan.

They are usually not more than a recipe for elephant soup.

[arebelspy]

Increasing your income isn't following him to the dark side.

Not caring about your spending at all would be.  And if that (spending more) is what makes you happy, then do it.  It doesn't interest me.

Increasing your income though, that isn't negative in any way.  Not sure why you think part of Mustachianism would be not making much money???

Of course increasing your income and having expenses stay the same (assuming you've already reduced them) is a great way to boost your savings rate.

I wouldn't personally ever pay for one of his seminars though.  I don't need to pay for a cheerleader or motivation.  YMMV.

[shedinator]

There is never anything wrong with increasing your income. In fact I would always recommend it. The only problem is when people increase their income solely to be able to increase their spending. If your goal is to build up enough money to retire, why WOULDN'T you try to increase your income?

As long as you maintain your savings rate you will be in great shape. So yeah, I say do whatever you can to increase your income, just keep your eye on your goals and don't get seduced by the get-rich-quick-and-buy-whatever-you-want crowd.

As far as paying for a seminar, I don't know the specifics. But most of those things are not much more than a motivational seminars. They may be great at instilling an entrepreneurial spirit, but they usually offer little in the way of how to enact a plan.

They are usually not more than a recipe for elephant soup.

The nice thing about Ramit's seminars is they come with a money back guarantee if they don't work for you. I've never purchased, and therefore never needed to recover my money for, one of his seminars, so I don't know how easy or hard the refund process is, but it's there. The not so nice thing is that his stuff is really pricey... the last offer I got was for a time management seminar that cost something  like $400+

[arebelspy]

Tons of those type of things offer "money back guarantees" -- and they do provide them fairly easily.

The problem is they guilt you into not doing it, ostracize you if you do, etc.  I do think Ramit would immediately refund you.  But I think very, very few would ask, even if they didn't feel they got value out of it.

[The Money Monk]

Increasing your income isn't following him to the dark side.

Not caring about your spending at all would be.  And if that (spending more) is what makes you happy, then do it.  It doesn't interest me.

Increasing your income though, that isn't negative in any way.  Not sure why you think part of Mustachianism would be not making much money???

Of course increasing your income and having expenses stay the same (assuming you've already reduced them) is a great way to boost your savings rate.

I wouldn't personally ever pay for one of his seminars though.  I don't need to pay for a cheerleader or motivation.  YMMV.

I agree, especially with your last line, and that is what i was trying to get at with my post. For somebody like me who already has that 'capitalist' spirit, I don't need to be convinced that there are better ways to make money than being a wage slave. What I am looking for are answers to specific questions that these products rarely offer.

They will give you all sorts of general business ideas for selling your product, but not many on where to get a product.

The helpful types of info would be info like where to go to get an autocad guy or engineer to help you design the product you invented. How much this should cost, do you need non--disclosure agreements, how and where to get a manufacturing firm to produce your product, etc. Specific information like that seems much harder to come by.

For the OP though, if you think it well help you get what you want, go for it, and don't be shy about using that money-back guarantee if you aren't satisfied.

[shedinator]

Increasing your income isn't following him to the dark side.

Not caring about your spending at all would be.  And if that (spending more) is what makes you happy, then do it.  It doesn't interest me.

I feel like I missed something when listening to IWT. My overall impression from Ramit's book was one of being very money conscious, knowing where your money goes, maximizing your income, and using the combination of increased income and conscious spending to live the life you want to live. Yes, he gives examples of people who spend vast quantities of money on things that might not interest you or me, but he emphasizes the fact that your vast quantities of money should be used in the way that will make you happiest. For us, that means growing our mustaches. I really had no difficulty taking his message, and applying it to the ER life.

[Jimbo]

Hey!

Thanks for the answers (quick too!) and I am glad I got the discussion started.

I meant Dark Side because of the Review from MMM of Ramit's book, where increased spending was all the rage...

And also as a way to point out that paying retail is NOT the mustachian way...

[goiyala]

Thanks Jimbo for starting this post - could not have come at a more opportune time.

I too am following his emails and his course enrollment ends tonight. I am also confused if I should enroll for his course or not. I do have an idea for a website/blog - but I am not sure if I have the skills to 'execute' on that idea. Like contracting web designers, getting content onto it, setting up payment systems - basically following through on the idea to fruition.

If anyone on this forum has taken his earn1k course before, your feedback would help!

[Mactrader]

The earn1k course is not a turnkey session for the items you described. It essentially covers the higher level aspects of going out and earning an extra $1,000. Ways to find ideas on what to do, how to set up a plan (not specific of the plan items) and lay out milestones to achieve your goal. Very high level look at how to get clients (use Craigslist, network, etc) and how to present yourself so you can charge max dollars. It's good stuff, but not a magic bullet by any means. I came across it from a friend who had the materials and I took a slightly more-than-cursory look at it and didn't think it was worth the price.

It is definitely not focused on how to build and monetize a site/blog. The basic thesis is to find a skill you have, and learn how to make money with it. Be it basket weaving, spreadsheet creation, or raking.

[Mrs MM]

Have you tried to increase your salary on your own yet?  Do you have ideas? 

Personally, I would go into ultra research mode at the library on my own, brainstorm, come up with ideas, find all the free material I could (Ramit has some free videos and youtube interviews/talks) and then I would come up with a plan and go from there. 

If for some reason I was unsuccessful (which I doubt would happen), then I might try something like a course.

I guess I'm the type of person that feels confident in my own abilities to figure stuff out.  Just my opinion...

I did however, pay $1000 for a real estate course though, knowing that it would probably pay off in the future, but that was more to get my certification as that was the only way to do it. 

Good luck!  Increasing income is a great way of becoming financially independent sooner!

[Mactrader]

I presume your question was for goiyala, but I'll answer anyway! My background is in Investment Management and I'd ultimately and ideally love to do Financial Planning full-time (for myself, no other company). In 2011 I set up the regulatory framework that I needed to do it lawfully (annual cost of $250 to maintain) and began reaching out to my close friends and family for free 'starter' plans as a way to a.) get them aware of their financial situation and bring them on track and b.) start building my reputation up for future clients! I have yet to monetize this at all, with my wife being on bed rest with our twins while still having a 3 1/2 year old at home in the back half of 2011 and then them being born prematurely and spending several weeks in the hospital. I'm looking at a 5 year plan to actually earning my annual living expenses from this business, so I'm not upset about not having the time to focus on it as my family has needed me MAJORLY for the past 9 months.

I have a relatively high-paying job, but also have expenses and debt service that eats most of it up. I should have all of it cleaned up by the Summer of 2013, provided I don't get any extra income from the side business. That's my ace in the hole that I cannot wait to start spinning up as that can do some major damage to debt payload and later to the retirement fund!

I LOVE the idea of any white-collar office worker finding ways to make $500-1,000 a month doing the things that they are already good at. If I had enough time (or didn't care about raising my children and enjoying my wife's time!) I would find opportunities to do Excel programming work for small businesses. I believe I could easily earn a grand a week as the skills I have are extremely useful for a business and not easy for a lot of entrepreneurs to do themselves. 

Is there already a thread for side-business/freelancing on here? I'd love to dive deep with all of you super-creative people here.

[goiyala]

If Mrs MM's question was for me - here's my answer :)

Just switched to a different job - and got a $15k pay increase :)
This website thingy is for the wife - she's a LEED professional. So trying to utilize her skills :)

@Stavros - your input definitely helped - glad I didn't signup. From what you described I don't think it would have been a good fit for us.

[tzxn3]

Sethi provides sound financial advice to those who still want a consumer lifestyle, but he is not in the same league as MMM or Jacob. I think it is highly antimustachian to spend hundreds of dollars on seminars when you could easily gain the same knowledge just from experience.

[arebelspy]

Sethi provides sound financial advice to those who still want a consumer lifestyle, but he is not in the same league as MMM or Jacob. I think it is highly antimustachian to spend hundreds of dollars on seminars when you could easily gain the same knowledge just from experience.

Experience is an expensive teacher, often costing much more than hundreds of dollars.  Learning from other people's experiences though, that's a great way to learn (via books, mentors, whatever).  ;)

[adam]

He's been sending out emails about the course again? I guess after years of being on the list and not joining up he must have dropped me.

[shedinator]

He's been sending out emails about the course again? I guess after years of being on the list and not joining up he must have dropped me.

It was about a different course, one on time management, although it may have contained links to the other courses. To emphasize that it was about the importance of time management, he only made it available for 48 hours, and claims he won't be making it available again.

[arebelspy]

He's been sending out emails about the course again? I guess after years of being on the list and not joining up he must have dropped me.

It was about a different course, one on time management, although it may have contained links to the other courses. To emphasize that it was about the importance of time management, he only made it available for 48 hours, and claims he won't be making it available again.

That guy is such a good marketer!  :D

One could learn a lot from him, though more from him as a person than from the actual courses.

[sol]

I have no desire to learn from him how to be an exploitive capitalist.

Anybody with a silver tongue and half an idea can convince the hapless masses to fork over their money

[adam]

He's been sending out emails about the course again? I guess after years of being on the list and not joining up he must have dropped me.

It was about a different course, one on time management, although it may have contained links to the other courses. To emphasize that it was about the importance of time management, he only made it available for 48 hours, and claims he won't be making it available again.

Yeah, he does that.  Until he brings it back again (if it is successful).

[Gerard]

To emphasize that it was about the importance of time management, he only made it available for 48 hours, and claims he won't be making it available again.

Somebody could be giving away scalp massages and free bacon, but if they took this kind of approach I would automatically say no. I may be overly cautious, though.

[shedinator]

To emphasize that it was about the importance of time management, he only made it available for 48 hours, and claims he won't be making it available again.

Somebody could be giving away scalp massages and free bacon, but if they took this kind of approach I would automatically say no. I may be overly cautious, though.

Clearly. A man with greasy hair and a mustache could be hanging out the driver's side of a van with blacked out windows, offering free bacon while winking at me and keeping one hand on his crotch at all times, and I'd probably say yes.

[AJ]

To emphasize that it was about the importance of time management, he only made it available for 48 hours, and claims he won't be making it available again.

BS. He didn't do it "to emphasize the importance of time management." Its a classic sales tactic, old as dirt. "This sale only lasts 48 hours, so buy now!" That he tries to pretend otherwise is even worse.

[Mactrader]

A wise man once said that if you don't like bacon, you're either lying or wrong.

[shedinator]

To emphasize that it was about the importance of time management, he only made it available for 48 hours, and claims he won't be making it available again.

BS. He didn't do it "to emphasize the importance of time management." Its a classic sales tactic, old as dirt. "This sale only lasts 48 hours, so buy now!" That he tries to pretend otherwise is even worse.

Well duh :). I think we're all familiar with the tactic, but I disagree over whether what he does is bad/worse. It's good marketing. The guy reportedly charges $3000/hr as a consultant. His tactics work, at least for him, and I don't begrudge him that. It may be annoying, but I don't see anything unethical in his actions... at least not the ones done for public scrutiny.

[AJ]

To emphasize that it was about the importance of time management, he only made it available for 48 hours, and claims he won't be making it available again.

BS. He didn't do it "to emphasize the importance of time management." Its a classic sales tactic, old as dirt. "This sale only lasts 48 hours, so buy now!" That he tries to pretend otherwise is even worse.

Well duh :). I think we're all familiar with the tactic, but I disagree over whether what he does is bad/worse. It's good marketing. The guy reportedly charges $3000/hr as a consultant. His tactics work, at least for him, and I don't begrudge him that. It may be annoying, but I don't see anything unethical in his actions... at least not the ones done for public scrutiny.

I never said it was unethical, but it is disingenuous at best. He is saying his intentions are one thing (to teach you about time management) when they really are another (to put time pressure on prospective clients). That means he is lying. Whether lying to make money is ethical or not, I'll leave up to people smarter than me to decide.  Either way, by "worse" I just meant that I lost a ton of respect for him. I prefer to work with people I can trust, and I can't trust someone that would employ that kind of hard-sell tactic.

[AJ]

I'm reminded of this comic: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/sell_generation

[arebelspy]

This has degenerated into a lot of Ramit bashing.

I don't think he's a bad guy, but he is a salesman.

I don't think he has all bad advice, but much of it is unnecessary.

There is something to be learned from him, I'd just recommend other sources for that information first.

[Lars]

They will give you all sorts of general business ideas for selling your product, but not many on where to get a product.

The helpful types of info would be info like where to go to get an autocad guy or engineer to help you design the product you invented. How much this should cost, do you need non--disclosure agreements, how and where to get a manufacturing firm to produce your product, etc. Specific information like that seems much harder to come by.

How much will you pay? :) I do some of that sort of work and didn't realize the information could be hard to come by. Thanks for the perspective - you've catalysed some ideas for eventually improving my side business. 

[Dicey]

A wise man once said that if you don't like bacon, you're either lying or wrong.

LOL! I've been a vegetarian for over 20 years, and I still miss bacon! And no, I don't eat veggie bacon. I'm positive it's a gateway drug. Start on that and I'd be back mainlining the hard stuff in no time.

In the same vein, my chef brother says if it doesn't taste right, add butter or salt. Or both.