FMLA leave before leaving a job?

[Scio5]

I'm not yet at full FIRE numbers, but I'm thinking of taking a little sabbatical before trying a different career. One of the suggestions on the pre-FIRE checklist is to get any elective medical stuff done while you have the insurance. My job has an extremely generous sick leave policy of accruing one day per month, and I have about 38 days accrued that will NOT be paid out when I leave.

I haven't talked to my job about it yet, but I'm in the beginning testing stages of trying to donate my kidney, which is expected to have at least a 2-week at-home recovery time after surgery. It's technically elective, but also covered under my state's FMLA leave laws. From what I can tell, FMLA has "return to work" provisions that protect the employee (employer must hold the job open), but I don't see anything saying how long I have to work after coming back from FMLA leave. If my employer is cool with me just taking my paid sick time without having to go through the FMLA paperwork that's nice, but the FMLA is a good backstop if they say that it's "elective" and deny my request. Ideally I'd take my medical leave, come back, and then give a few weeks notice to button things up.

If you've planned an elective medical leave before leaving a job, how did it go? It's an at-will position so I suppose I can technically quit without notice at any time (I'd rather be more considerate than that), but has anyone ever heard of an employer trying to claw back medical leave/benefits payment? Thank you!

[Sandi_k]

Two things, since I do HR and advise on FMLA at my work.

1) Most companies require that you return to work for at least **30 days** after the leave.

2) FML runs per calendar year, and must be renewed each Jan 1.

[DaMa]

FMLA protects your job.  If you plan to quit, you don't need that protection.  What you need to check is whether you need to repay anything if you don't return to work for some required length of time.  That has nothing to do with FMLA.

I had an employer that continued paying your medical coverage even when on unpaid leave.  If you didn't return, you had to repay those costs.

[Scio5]

Two things, since I do HR and advise on FMLA at my work.

1) Most companies require that you return to work for at least **30 days** after the leave.

2) FML runs per calendar year, and must be renewed each Jan 1.

Thank you! I couldn't find a number in my state regs or in my employee manual, but 30 days seems very reasonable. My state (maybe every state, I'm not sure) allows me to use paid leave concurrently with FMLA. If I had to I'd be fine quitting first and just doing it on my own, but it would be nice to use up some paid sick time before going.

[Dicey]

I can't answer your questions, but I've been looking for an excuse to ping @HappyCheerE, who hasn't checked on for a while. I think you'll find her journey of interest.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/hemi-demi-semi-fire-and-kidney-donation-journey/

[ormaybemidgets]

Two things, since I do HR and advise on FMLA at my work.

1) Most companies require that you return to work for at least **30 days** after the leave.

2) FML runs per calendar year, and must be renewed each Jan 1.

Thank you! I couldn't find a number in my state regs or in my employee manual, but 30 days seems very reasonable. My state (maybe every state, I'm not sure) allows me to use paid leave concurrently with FMLA. If I had to I'd be fine quitting first and just doing it on my own, but it would be nice to use up some paid sick time before going.

These may be true at a particular company, but are not true generally. Companies have various ways of calculating the 12 month period, and it is not always by calendar year: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/whdfs28h.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiPwZndlIL2AhVjI0QIHTrVCl0QFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1KU9ktt55CWlJ2n-yKyDGZ

An employer also cannot force your return to work, although as @DaMa said, if they pay a benefit while you're on leave, they may require you to return to work for a period or pay back the benefit.

[cool7hand]

Two things, since I do HR and advise on FMLA at my work.

1) Most companies require that you return to work for at least **30 days** after the leave.

2) FML runs per calendar year, and must be renewed each Jan 1.

My knowledge on this might be getting stale because I FIREd in 2019, but this used to be my bread and butter. That said, I'm not aware of anything that would prevent the use of FMLA as you suggest. Indeed, what company would want the bad press for preventing you from donating a kidney? Thank you for your compassion. In addition, I have a few thoughts about the above quotation.

While 1 might be company policy, I'm not aware of any law that requires an employee to actually work for 30 days after their return from FMLA leave. In an at-will state, either the employer or employee may end the employment relationship for any reason and at any time. The company may not base the termination on illegal reasons such as discrimination or FMLA retaliation. The company may predicate the payment of accrued but unused sick time on 30-days notice, but that does not prevent an employee from not providing notice in exchange for abandoning the sick time.

2 is only 1/4 true. It is one of four ways to track FMLA time: e.g., https://americanfidelity.com/blog/compliance/determining-an-fmla-year/.

[Sandi_k]

Yes, sorry for the previous brevity. The point being if you do not return to work for the specified time period, you can be required to pay back the sick leave, and any premiums that the company paid on your behalf.

[Scio5]

I can't answer your questions, but I've been looking for an excuse to ping @HappyCheerE, who hasn't checked on for a while. I think you'll find her journey of interest.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/hemi-demi-semi-fire-and-kidney-donation-journey/

I just read the journal, how amazing! Thank you for recommending it!

[mm1970]

Yes, sorry for the previous brevity. The point being if you do not return to work for the specified time period, you can be required to pay back the sick leave, and any premiums that the company paid on your behalf.

They have 38 days of accrued sick leave.  Why on earth would they be required to pay that back?

[Dicey]

I can't answer your questions, but I've been looking for an excuse to ping @HappyCheerE, who hasn't checked on for a while. I think you'll find her journey of interest.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/hemi-demi-semi-fire-and-kidney-donation-journey/

I just read the journal, how amazing! Thank you for recommending it!

In a sad post-script to my tiny slice of the story: my sister and BIL are antivaxxers. She caught Covid, passed it on to him and he died three days before Thanksgiving. Completely fucked up. Worst of all, IMO, is that the person who passed it on to them was a fully vaccinated minister from their church. Apparently they were the conduit between unvaxxed zealots idiots "believers". How sad for them, too.  But hey, BIL's in a "better place" now. Just ask them. I know this, because I attended BIL's "Masks Optional" memorial service. Yup, "Bitter, party of one" here.

I do hope @HappyCheerE will receive these batsignals and post an update.

[DaMa]

Yes, sorry for the previous brevity. The point being if you do not return to work for the specified time period, you can be required to pay back the sick leave, and any premiums that the company paid on your behalf.

They have 38 days of accrued sick leave.  Why on earth would they be required to pay that back?

Company policy.  Many states do not have legislation that requires company to pay for any accrued time off.  Michigan does not.  I believe California does.

[cool7hand]

Yes, sorry for the previous brevity. The point being if you do not return to work for the specified time period, you can be required to pay back the sick leave, and any premiums that the company paid on your behalf.

My apologies, but I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. I'm not aware of any law permitting a company to claw back accrued sick pay just because an employee's return to work date is changed by the employee's health needs, even if the employee can never return to work, as long as the employee timely informs the company of not being able to return to work. Practically speaking, it's really hard to prove that changes in an employee's recovery aren't bona fide. And FMLA leave is available regardless of whether a company offers sick time, as long as the company meets the other thresholds for the law's applicability, including minimum number of employees. The FMLA simply allows a company to require an employee, after providing the employee with notice, to use accrued sick time simultaneously with their use of FMLA leave. But an employee in a company subject to the FMLA may take the full 12 weeks, even if the company provides zero sick leave. So I don't think the above is correct.

[Scio5]

My company has this generous sick leave accrual instead of short-term disability. If it was a different situation, say a long-term illness like cancer, I believe I would run out my accrued sick time before going to long-term disability, at 60% pay for up to 5 years. If I stayed at least 10 years before leaving this job, I would be paid out 50% of my accrued sick time. I haven't been here that long, so I would not get a payout of sick time on leaving.

I *could* just leave without bothering with the sick leave and FMLA, but it feels like a benefit that I've earned and it would be nice to use a chunk of it up (while helping someone else, and recovering at home won't exactly be a vacation either). I don't see any kind of claw-back provision in our office policy. I suppose if I put in my two weeks notice and then the next day tested positive for COVID and had to isolate/recover at home, it would be unfortunate but they couldn't exactly deny me using the sick time. Thank you all for your insights in helping me think this through!

[Scio5]

I can't answer your questions, but I've been looking for an excuse to ping @HappyCheerE, who hasn't checked on for a while. I think you'll find her journey of interest.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/hemi-demi-semi-fire-and-kidney-donation-journey/

I just read the journal, how amazing! Thank you for recommending it!

In a sad post-script to my tiny slice of the story: my sister and BIL are antivaxxers. She caught Covid, passed it on to him and he died three days before Thanksgiving. Completely fucked up. Worst of all, IMO, is that the person who passed it on to them was a fully vaccinated minister from their church. Apparently they were the conduit between unvaxxed zealots idiots "believers". How sad for them, too.  But hey, BIL's in a "better place" now. Just ask them. I know this, because I attended BIL's "Masks Optional" memorial service. Yup, "Bitter, party of one" here.

I do hope @HappyCheerE will receive these batsignals and post an update.

Wow, that's so awful, I'm so sorry. You have every right to be bitter.

[iluvzbeach]

It would seem to me that there is very likely a large percentage of people who take FMLA and don’t end up returning to work because their illness, or that of the family member they are caring for, won’t allow them to return. If this is in fact the case, don’t you think we’d be hearing a lot more about issues with people who got a clawback of benefits/pay that was provided? AFAIK it’s not like you have to give a reason when you resign, which could leave the company with the impression that you’re resigning because the issue persists.

[DaMa]

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/28a-fmla-employee-protections

"the employer may require the employee to repay the employer’s share of the premium payment if the employee fails to return to work following the FMLA leave unless the employee does not return because of circumstances that are beyond the employee’s control, including a FMLA-qualifying medical condition."

[HappyCheerE]

Hey everyone but especially @Scio5 and @Dicey - so so sorry I missed this batsignal. Lots going on, almost all good, but I have not checked in on the forums in for. ever. No idea if this is still relevant or helpful, but @Scio5 I went through the same thought process as you, wondering about using sick time while I still had it but after I had given extended notice. I reached out to the amazing Alison Green at https://www.askamanager.org/ and she didn't post anything but replied to me privately - she's THE BEST - and reassured me. What I specifically asked was:

... my question to you is about the reasonableness of using a big chunk of sick time on my way out. It's not "mine" the way vacation time is, but I did accrue it. But this surgery, while medically necessary for my recipient, is elective for me. It's good for society at large and I do work for a non-profit (not an impoverished one) but our mission doesn't have anything to do with health. It can't hurt to request it, but I'd love to know your opinion on how big of an ask it is. I could see it anywhere from "no brainer, of course" to "that's a lot of chutzpah." How should a reasonable employer react? How should I frame my request, especially since I should open the conversation before I know details?

and she replied:

You shouldn't be penalized for [giving advance notie] by being denied sick leave you'd otherwise have been able to take (one presumes) without difficulty. I would just be straightforward about asking for it and explaining what you'll need and when, as if of course you'll be able to take sick time that you've accumulated.

I'm not sure to what extent that applies/would apply to you, but FWIW. And good luck on your journey!

[Dicey]

Dicey waves happily to @HappyCheerE! Glad you are doing well!

[HappyCheerE]

Hi @Dicey, and I am so so sorry about your BIL. I need to catch up on your journal!