Flood insurance in an area where it's not required

[Miss Piggy]

After seeing the effects of Helene...and thinking about the two major rivers nearby...we're thinking of getting flood insurance for our house. Any thoughts, experiences, or recommendations from the gallery?

ETA: Clarifying my actual question: Do any of you have experience or any helpful hints related to selecting a flood insurance provider, especially when it's not required for your location?

[GilesMM]

Have you checked the floodplain maps for your location?

[markbike528CBX]

Specifically:
https://msc.fema.gov/portal/home

[FIRE@50]

If I thought there was a legitimate risk of flooding on my property, I would sell and move.

[reeshau]

We moved to Houston in 2020.  The impact of flooding from Hurricane Harvey had not yet been incorporated into floodplain maps, but was readily available as its own dataset.  We used that map as much as the map to navigate us driving to houses we looked at.  We could also see flood impact in the price of houses, with some houses, which had been flooded, 1/2 the price of others across the street.

Harvey was bad, but by no means was it the worst possible flooding imagainable--some kind of boundary by God of what could happen.  So while we shopped smart, and although our house has the lowest level 1 risk from FEMA, we sure as heck have flood insurance.

When we were in Michigan, we used to live on the 3rd highest hill in the county.  In the winter, we could see the lights from four nearby ski hills, and on the 4th of July we had a panorama of fireworks.  There, I used to joke that if we needed flood insurance, most of the county needed submarines.  But even in mountains, if you are by a water feature, you need to consider what happens if it goes over capacity.

[Sibley]

I think it depends on the topography, location, and characteristics of your house. If you're near rivers but your elevation is higher, and there's lots of lower lying area to flood first then even in a worst case scenario you might be fine. Basically, try to figure out what the amount of rainfall that the areas devastated by Helene had, both before and during, would do in your area and to your house. If you're on a slab that's a different risk than if you're walking up 3 or 4 steps to get to the door.

[Cranky]

When we were living in Ohio, we had a rainstorm come through with something like 6” in an hour and there was a LOT of flooding in our neighborhood. We weren’t in a flood zone, but I bought flood insurance. The weather just isn’t what it used to be.

[Sibley]

When we were living in Ohio, we had a rainstorm come through with something like 6” in an hour and there was a LOT of flooding in our neighborhood. We weren’t in a flood zone, but I bought flood insurance. The weather just isn’t what it used to be.

We had something like 7 inches of rain in a couple of hours one year. The street flooded, and it flooded my car. A lot of people in the area flooded, took quite a while to pump out all the basements, etc. Across the street my neighbor had water at least 15 ft into his yard past the sidewalk. It didn't even cover the sidewalk on my side. But when you look at where the flooding happened in town, it makes sense. It's the lower areas, the areas that used to be swamp. It's also not the original part of town. On blocks where some flooded and others didn't, it also made sense. The slab houses flooded. The ones that were a bit higher up generally just had basement/crawl flooding, but the house was fine. A lot of this stuff is subtle.

What this tells me is pretty simple: huge sections of the town can flood before my house will even start to flood. Yes, the street will flood, that's a given. When my property starts to flood, it's going to take quite a bit for it to reach the house. When the water gets to the house, my utility room is fucked, and my crawlspace will flood, but the water is still going to have to rise 2-3 ft before the main house is impacted. So, I have a lot of leeway in flood risk. Could it happen? Yes. Is it likely? No. Will that same risk assessment be valid for my next door neighbor? Not necessarily. Sometimes, flood risk is big and obvious. Sometimes its subtle.

[GilesMM]

When we were living in Ohio, we had a rainstorm come through with something like 6” in an hour and there was a LOT of flooding in our neighborhood. We weren’t in a flood zone, but I bought flood insurance. The weather just isn’t what it used to be.

We had something like 7 inches of rain in a couple of hours one year. The street flooded, and it flooded my car. A lot of people in the area flooded, took quite a while to pump out all the basements, etc. Across the street my neighbor had water at least 15 ft into his yard past the sidewalk. It didn't even cover the sidewalk on my side. But when you look at where the flooding happened in town, it makes sense. It's the lower areas, the areas that used to be swamp. It's also not the original part of town. On blocks where some flooded and others didn't, it also made sense. The slab houses flooded. The ones that were a bit higher up generally just had basement/crawl flooding, but the house was fine. A lot of this stuff is subtle.

What this tells me is pretty simple: huge sections of the town can flood before my house will even start to flood. Yes, the street will flood, that's a given. When my property starts to flood, it's going to take quite a bit for it to reach the house. When the water gets to the house, my utility room is fucked, and my crawlspace will flood, but the water is still going to have to rise 2-3 ft before the main house is impacted. So, I have a lot of leeway in flood risk. Could it happen? Yes. Is it likely? No. Will that same risk assessment be valid for my next door neighbor? Not necessarily. Sometimes, flood risk is big and obvious. Sometimes its subtle.

During Tropical Storm Allison (not even a hurricane) parts of Houston got 40" of rain in a few days.  Houston is flat and the soil is full of clay, so drainage is poor.  40" of rain will flood nearly anyone or at least their car.  I'm surprised people turn to some recent or historic flood maps to assure themselves their location seems safe from flooding.

[Cranky]

When we were living in Ohio, we had a rainstorm come through with something like 6” in an hour and there was a LOT of flooding in our neighborhood. We weren’t in a flood zone, but I bought flood insurance. The weather just isn’t what it used to be.

We had something like 7 inches of rain in a couple of hours one year. The street flooded, and it flooded my car. A lot of people in the area flooded, took quite a while to pump out all the basements, etc. Across the street my neighbor had water at least 15 ft into his yard past the sidewalk. It didn't even cover the sidewalk on my side. But when you look at where the flooding happened in town, it makes sense. It's the lower areas, the areas that used to be swamp. It's also not the original part of town. On blocks where some flooded and others didn't, it also made sense. The slab houses flooded. The ones that were a bit higher up generally just had basement/crawl flooding, but the house was fine. A lot of this stuff is subtle.

What this tells me is pretty simple: huge sections of the town can flood before my house will even start to flood. Yes, the street will flood, that's a given. When my property starts to flood, it's going to take quite a bit for it to reach the house. When the water gets to the house, my utility room is fucked, and my crawlspace will flood, but the water is still going to have to rise 2-3 ft before the main house is impacted. So, I have a lot of leeway in flood risk. Could it happen? Yes. Is it likely? No. Will that same risk assessment be valid for my next door neighbor? Not necessarily. Sometimes, flood risk is big and obvious. Sometimes its subtle.

A lot of people in my neighborhood had the water come up through sewers, because the storm drainage system was so overwhelmed. Water was shooting up out of the storm drains.

[Miss Piggy]

When we were living in Ohio, we had a rainstorm come through with something like 6” in an hour and there was a LOT of flooding in our neighborhood. We weren’t in a flood zone, but I bought flood insurance. The weather just isn’t what it used to be.

Yeah, that's my mentality as well. We're technically in a Zone X area, but mother nature doesn't care about what zone you're in if there's 15 inches of rainfall in two days. I've read that many houses that flood the first time were not in a labeled high risk flood zone. And you have to have flood insurance for at least 30 days (I believe) for it to take effect. I guess I'm thinking better safe than sorry on our most valuable asset.

[Miss Piggy]

Specifically:
https://msc.fema.gov/portal/home

Yes. I checked that numerous times before buying this house...and have kept an eye on it since then due to updates. We're still in Zone X, but I don't trust what I'm seeing.

Also, I didn't mention that our house is 40 feet from a lake...technically "on the lake," which adds more risk. It also adds lovely views, recreational activities, and wildlife. It's a trade-off.

[Radagast]

I wouldn’t trust a house within 100 vertical feet of sea level or 10 vertical feet of any mapped or historical flood :D I like my houses well away from any drainage and at least 100 feet above any significant body of water.

How far vertical are you above the lake surface? If the lake overtops where will it overflow and how far are you above that? What area and features drain into the lake? Matters way more than 40 feet horizontal distance.

[seattlecyclone]

I wouldn’t trust a house within 100 vertical feet of sea level or 10 vertical feet of any mapped or historical flood :D I like my houses well away from any drainage and at least 100 feet above any significant body of water.

Yeah, I'm 300' above sea level and the next block over has a 75' slope downward. If my block floods we'll need a good ark available. Still need to worry about earthquakes though! There's always something.

[Miss Piggy]

I wouldn’t trust a house within 100 vertical feet of sea level or 10 vertical feet of any mapped or historical flood :D I like my houses well away from any drainage and at least 100 feet above any significant body of water.

How far vertical are you above the lake surface? If the lake overtops where will it overflow and how far are you above that? What area and features drain into the lake? Matters way more than 40 feet horizontal distance.

Our basement is probably about 10 vertical feet higher than the typical lake level. But we are on the lower end of some surrounding areas... not the lowest, but low compared to some other nearby areas that ARE flood-prone. I'm concerned about hydrostatic pressure pushing water up through the basement as well as the potential for water to come in the usual ways.

I'd like to clarify my question for the group: Do any of you have experience or any helpful hints related to selecting a flood insurance provider, especially when it's not required for your location? Thanks!

[FINate]

I don't have recommendations for specific companies. Generally, this is case where you call around and get multiple quotes. If your property doesn't require flood insurance then it should be low-risk which should be reflected in lower premiums.

[GilesMM]

I wouldn’t trust a house within 100 vertical feet of sea level or 10 vertical feet of any mapped or historical flood :D I like my houses well away from any drainage and at least 100 feet above any significant body of water.

How far vertical are you above the lake surface? If the lake overtops where will it overflow and how far are you above that? What area and features drain into the lake? Matters way more than 40 feet horizontal distance.

Our basement is probably about 10 vertical feet higher than the typical lake level. But we are on the lower end of some surrounding areas... not the lowest, but low compared to some other nearby areas that ARE flood-prone. I'm concerned about hydrostatic pressure pushing water up through the basement as well as the potential for water to come in the usual ways.

I'd like to clarify my question for the group: Do any of you have experience or any helpful hints related to selecting a flood insurance provider, especially when it's not required for your location? Thanks!

Start with your property insurance provider which should be able to offer a quote or suggest a provider they work with well.  The quotes may or may not indicate your risk level.  I checked mine and it was $350/year despite the fact we live near the top of a hill at nearly 1000 ft elevation with zero chance of flooding from any direction.  I guess the only scenario would be water from the properties at the very top, 100 feet above us, somehow sending water our way which somehow failed to go around us and piled up.

[Cranky]

The flood insurance I bought was through my home insurance but it was a FEMA policy and I was billed by FEMA. So I’d start by talking to your regular insurance agent.

[Miss Piggy]

The flood insurance I bought was through my home insurance but it was a FEMA policy and I was billed by FEMA. So I’d start by talking to your regular insurance agent.

For some unknown, can't-quite-put-my-finger-on-it reason, I was thinking I would want to avoid FEMA. Maybe that's stupid. I do know for sure that our homeowner's insurance company does not offer flood insurance. I guess I'll start with an insurance broker who was recommended to us recently for another purpose.

[jrhampt]

FEMA flood insurance is considerably more expensive than flood insurance on the private market, but it's backed by the federal government so presumably you would have lower chance of having your insurance company go bankrupt and be unable to pay out all the claims. 

[MrGreen]

It really helps if you think like water. I know that sounds weird. Imagine a foot of water was dropped across your entire area in an instant. Where will that water go? Do you have a crawlspace that sits lower than the surrounding elevation that water will want to move into? If slab, does your house sit higher than the ground immediately surrounding it such that water will run away? What does your immediate area look like? Are you higher where water from your street wants to go somewhere else or are you lower where water from other streets will want to come to you? What do your low lying areas look like? Are all the runoff areas overgrown or full of vegetation that will slow down the speed of moving water or cause debris to get hung up and create a damming effect that can also slow the speed of water and raise the pooling level?

Every single one of those questions is important when assessing whether an extreme event like 30-50" of rainfall in 24-48 hours could cause water to rise to the level it enters your home.

10 vertical feet above the surface of a lake could be conceening but maybe not. The lake is the widest part where water is gathering and that next 10 feet is the largest part of the bowl so it takes considerably more water to fill. Then there is the fact that water will be running over a dam. The dam could have debris lodge against it that would raise the surface level of the lake before it goes over but the water will want to escape, and with force. Would the dam fail before the water level could rise 10 feet and add all that pressure to the dam area? I'd want to understand the mechanics of the area a bit better (width of the dam, size of the lake, etc.) If you're away from the dam area or the feeder streams of the lake you dont have to worry about swift water eroding the bank.

[Miss Piggy]

When I think like a little water or a medium amount of rainfall, I see a dry basement.

When I think like heavy rainfall in a short amount of time...like the heaviest rain my area has ever seen (some yet-to-be-determined amount)...I see water in my basement but not my main living spaces. But still, the basement includes furnace, water heater, water softener, freezer full of food, electrical wiring and outlets, stairs made of wood, exterior doors, windows, flooring, exercise equipment, and other random crap that's stored there. We'd lose a lot even though our basement is unfinished.

I am waiting on a couple of quotes from regional agencies. Good to know that NFIP/FEMA is likely to be more expensive.

[Radagast]

I know you're specifically asking about insurance and I don't know much about the nature of your property, but this might be a case where the money is better spent preventing flooding. Grade an obvious ditch or swale around your house to direct surface water away. Take care of ground water by slotted drain pipes wrapped in geofabric and appropriate backfill that directs the water away, if you have somewhere low enough to send it to. Seal off potential water basement intrusion by coating your basement with Xypex slurry (Google search). You could even install a sump pump though I prefer passive solutions. Over a decade these would likely be cheaper than insurance. Plus if your basement did actually flood, you'd have to first live with a flooded basement and its aftermath (not pleasant), plus it would get reported which would make the house harder to sell and insure in the future. So my suggestion is that practical steps to prevent flooding would be more useful.

[Miss Piggy]

I know you're specifically asking about insurance and I don't know much about the nature of your property, but this might be a case where the money is better spent preventing flooding...

I do like the way you think. And the Xypex Slurry looks quite interesting, especially its resistance to hydrostatic pressure.

We have a sump pump, so I can check that box.

I've thought about just having a crap-ton of sandbags ready to put out when 20 inches of rain is predicted, but then where in the world would those be stored?

I think we have two problems that will enable mother nature to win the water battle IF it ever comes up this high:
1. We have a walkout basement, so in addition to several windows, there's also a lovely double-door for water to seep through. These windows and doors are all facing the lake. (Read: water.)
2. If the water level ever gets to flood stage here, it won't just be my house...it will be about 50 other houses that get affected, too. And it will be because of rising water, not water looking for a route to drain to. So with rising water around us, I have zero confidence in beating mother nature. Even if we did the sandbags, the hydrostatic pressure would get us.

That said, I will be doing a bit more research on that Xypex Slurry to see if it might be something we'd like to use. Thank you for the suggestion!

[roomtempmayo]

We looked when we bought our house, since even though we're 180' above the river by our house it seemed prudent. 

Low risk, so it should be cheap, right?

Not at all.  What we found was a floor on flood insurance policies that was way more than seemed reasonable.

I think the risk pools have become so bad that unless you have real risk of flooding or are required to buy it, you go without.

[MrGreen]

If you have a sump pump it's a good idea to periodically verify it's running. Pour a gallon of water into the sump well and the float should trigger the pump to run. I remember the first time I ran our sump pump I was shocked at how much water it moved. Water would have to be pouring into our basement to overwhelm the pump. Some seeping and the pump would easily keep up with that. If your basement is unfinished you may not need to worry about water getting more than a couple inshes deep. Putting a freezer, etc. on bricks could mitigate any appliance damage and wood and cinder blocks will dry out just fine after the event.

For what it's worth, both my mom and my wife's parents live in an area where the soils are predominantly clay and basements are prevalent. Both my mom's and her parents' basements have gotten water in them a few times over the years, her parents more so than my mom. My mom has found that with improved grading around the house and properly maintaining the gutters so that water moves away from the foundation like it should she has seen almost no water intrusion since.

[cowman]

Not sure if this makes sense where you are,as I am in an area where a "flood"is not a concern.

And in Canada so....

Several years ago I shopped my insurance coverage and found one 15% cheaper.(!)
Upon further investigation I found the cheaper one covered"overland"water damage.

So not burst pipes ,leaky water heater,etc

YMMV