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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: b4u2 on April 21, 2014, 11:51:18 AM

Title: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: b4u2 on April 21, 2014, 11:51:18 AM
Well our first kid is going to college this fall. Basically my wife and I just started on this FI path and are still paying our debts. We have no money for college. She only got student loan for $5500. Then apparently the parents (US) can borrow 13k for the other part. The cost of the college is about 16k a year including housing, food, books, and misc fees.

My wife and I have 5 kids total. We cannot afford to pay for each kid to go to school. I need help with understanding what to do. She has applied for grants and scholarships and waiting to hear back on those. She isn't the greatest student so not holding my breath.

What are some resources I can read up on?
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: luigi49 on April 21, 2014, 12:42:49 PM
  I would say do the loan or 2 years community college then regular college.  If tuition is your main concern then community college is your better route.  Your daughter is doing the right thing with applying for scholarship and grants.   The 16k is a bargain in my opinion. 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MrsPete on April 21, 2014, 12:47:52 PM
You're not going to like this, but it's the truth:

In her 18 years, you've saved nothing; this means you're not "set" to pay back a loan. 
In the time since she's been old enough to work, she's saved nothing.
Even if financial aid comes through, you're going to be short. 
Fall is only months away; you can't wait this late and expect good things to happen.

A 16K/year college is just not in the cards.
You need a less expensive option, even if it's not her first choice.

Community college is probably your best choice, especially since you say she "isn't the greatest student".  Staying close to home would probably be the best way to insure her success.  College is a big step up academically from high school. 

Sorry, but it's the truth.  No false hope here.

Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Cpa Cat on April 21, 2014, 12:52:06 PM
The best possible thing you can do is start looking into community colleges that they can attend while living at home. They should be able to get half their degree (the first two years) out of the way on the cheap that way.

Also, they need to work while in school. No question.

The hard truth is that you can't afford to send your daughter to the college where she was accepted. It's probably not too late for her to apply to community college right now. But if it is, she can hold off a semester and work. Tell all your kids right now that they need to save for college. Most of them will probably need to take a year or two off between high school and college (or go part time community college) to work and build a little savings before going to school.

The earlier you break this news to your kids the better. My parents told me there'd be no money for college when I entered high school. I saved every penny and worked from the time it was legal to get some savings. I also took school more seriously because I was hoping for scholarships.

People go to college on a shoestring budget all the time. But they usually live at home (or in slums with several roommates). They use old editions of textbooks. They get jobs. They do community college.

And I think you might want to start creating a family plan to save money in your household. You need every penny. With 5 kids heading to college, debt and potential retirement savings, you don't have room for luxuries. Get your kids on board with that.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MayDay on April 21, 2014, 01:10:38 PM
The relatives of mine who saved nothing had their kids go to a state school, pick the absolute cheapest housing options, the kids worked full time or more during summers and pt during school, and the parents cash-flowed whatever the kid couldn't cover with loans and jobs. It might work out to around 500-800$ a month to cash flow, which is pretty doable by picking up a second job.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MayDay on April 21, 2014, 01:13:42 PM
Oh, and my parents did what Cpa cat said. My sister and I then worked our butts off and got full rides. Ends up my parents would have helped some but they wanted to motivate us and didn't want us to count on their help.

Break it to them all now if you aren't going to cover any costs.  Surprises are bad.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: neophyte on April 21, 2014, 01:30:06 PM
Does she know what she wants to study and does she have clear goals, or is she just going to college because it is the 'next step'?

Can she defer her enrollment for a year?  I think many schools will allow you to do this.  Then she could live at home and work full time for a year to build up some savings.  Even better if she can get a job related to what she thinks she wants to study  This could also give her a better perspective on why she wants to go to college and what she gets out of it.  Especially if she doesn't know what she wants to do, I don't think it makes sense to go to college to without a purpose and try to figure it out once you get there.  I know too many people who changed majors multiple times and took 5, 6, sometimes 7 years to graduate. 


*Edit: I can't spell
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Rebecca Stapler on April 21, 2014, 01:36:54 PM
Does she know what she wants to study and does she have clear goals, or is she just going to college because it is the 'next step'?

Can she differ her enrollment for a year?  I think many schools will allow you to do this.  Then she could live at home and work full time for a year to build up some savings.  Even better if she can get a job related to what she thinks she wants to study  This could also give her a better perspective on why she wants to go to college and what she gets out of it.  Especially if she doesn't know what she wants to do, I don't think it makes sense to go to college to without a purpose and try to figure it out once you get there.  I know too many people who changed majors multiple times and took 5, 6, sometimes 7 years to graduate.

I wholeheartedly agree with this! If she can defer for a year, work in an area related to her field of interest while living at home, and save her earnings, she will not only be better prepared to pay for college but she'll also be better prepared in choosing the most appropriate field of study and be motivated to do a great job. A bunch of my fellow students in law school were only there because it was the "next step," then found themselves completely uninterested in practicing and still shouldering $125k worth of debt.

Otherwise, starting out at community college, getting stellar grades, and transferring to a 4-year school after earning an Associate's is a great idea. But I don't think it's for everyone. Around here, community college can be a bit of a 13th-grade, and students can slack off if it's just a continuation of high school with no focus on their goal at the end.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: teen persuasion on April 21, 2014, 01:50:03 PM
I've got 5 kids, too. Kids 2 and 3 are currently in college, 1 is graduated and in the Navy (she did it the wrong way round - she should have joined the Navy before college and let them pay for it.) 

If you didn't get any aid but loans, you must have a good income and/or assets, since family size affects aid. I am concerned about how much aid DS5 will be eligible for when all the other kids are out of the nest.

$16k for tuition and R&B is really cheap - R&B alone run  ~$12k now, up from $10k in 2008 when DD1 began college.  If your child can live at home, you could swing tuition, fees, books on the student loans.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: b4u2 on April 21, 2014, 01:56:41 PM
I remarried into extra kids. It was a sudden jump from 2 kids to 5 kids. We have told them all we cannot cover costs. What we do for one we would have to do for 5 and that just isn't feasible. I am still paying for my loans (58K). No one helped me get into or pay for college and I came from a large family. I never expected my parents to pay for my college nor do I feel like they should have. She was supposed to be saving while she worked part time. We got her last bank account and she has just thrown money away on crap. She started out doing so well and now she only has what we originally put in a cd (500?). We have encouraged her to work more hours this summer but she wants to "enjoy" the last summer of freedom before starting college. I will probably look into trying to get her private loans in her name if possible. May Discover student loans?

She is interested in graphic design. Not sure what the field has in store for her. She has done a lot of plays and vocal. She has done set work and play production. She writes a lot. She has also done some computer graphics for different classes.

The college is in state and is a very good college here in Iowa. The distance would be too far to drive daily.

She also feels that if she goes to a community college and not a 4 year college that she won't stick with it. I really hope she does but if not why would I want to be stuck with that debt? I am still digging myself out from my own past mistakes.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Cpa Cat on April 21, 2014, 02:10:48 PM
She was supposed to be saving while she worked part time. We got her last bank account and she has just thrown money away on crap. ... We have encouraged her to work more hours this summer but she wants to "enjoy" the last summer of freedom before starting college. I will probably look into trying to get her private loans in her name if possible. May Discover student loans?
...
The college is in state and is a very good college here in Iowa. The distance would be too far to drive daily.

She also feels that if she goes to a community college and not a 4 year college that she won't stick with it. I really hope she does but if not why would I want to be stuck with that debt? I am still digging myself out from my own past mistakes.

This kid isn't ready to be dropped off in on-campus housing. That Summer of "freedom" is going to turn into a first semester of partying.

And if she's telling you she won't stick with community college, then what makes you think she can stick with regular college? There's a clear message that she's more interested in being with her friends than she is in higher education.

FYI - It is HIGHLY unlikely that you will get private student loans without co-signing. And the moment you co-sign, that's your debt. She will probably default it right into your lap.

She has clearly failed to clue into the financial reality of her situation. A bunch of student loans will do her no favors. She stands a high likelihood of ending up with a bunch of debt and no degree.

She just isn't ready. She has demonstrated zero responsibility while under your roof - there's not going to be some epiphany once she's in student housing with a bunch of other 18 year olds and no oversight.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: galliver on April 21, 2014, 03:17:58 PM
My ex from freshman year of college dropped out after that year, moved home, went to a local school, graduated, and is doing fine. I don't know how he was before college, but I bet his parents had to tell him to turn off his video game and do his homework and go to bed on time. Because those are all things he had trouble with on his own. I don't know how much the experiment of going 5+ hours away cost him and his parents.

A childhood friend went literally across the country and failed/partied out. Went back home, did CC, got her degree, got a job, fiance, house, dog, and horse, and is doing fine. But again, that experiment cost her parents (and maybe her).

It really doesn't sound like your daughter is going to college with a focus on her education. You don't have the money to be one of the above stories. As much as you love your kid and want to give her what she wants, it's really not good for either of you. You can't make her college decision(s) for her, but you can decide what to do with your money and let her decide from there.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Thegoblinchief on April 21, 2014, 03:45:29 PM
If she can't pay for college, she can't go. If she wants to do 100% loans, she can, but that's $64K and interest at the end. Unless she goes the IBR route, that's $600 a month at the end. Make sure she is truly, truly aware of that.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: samburger on April 21, 2014, 04:14:56 PM
Community college. Can we stop talking about CC like it's the loser cousin to universities, by the way? Mustachians ought to know better than anyone that paying more doesn't equal higher quality.

I did my first two years at a cc to save money. Did my second two years at in-state rates, graduated at the tippy top of my class.

The smart kids go to schools they can afford, end of story.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: mozar on April 21, 2014, 05:36:03 PM
If she really wants to take on the debt (because you should not) she should consider a degree in accounting. you can get mediocre grades and still get a job when you graduate. a mediocre job but at least a job. 64k for a degree in graphic design? holy moly that is bad roi.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Gimesalot on April 21, 2014, 06:10:50 PM
Given that her interest is in graphic design, I don't think she should go to a 4-year university.  Graphic design is not a job that requires a degree of any sort.

I believe her best route is to go to a community college where she learns software that is common in the field (photoshop and the like).  From there she could get a job without a degree.  If she decides to go back, she will have a foundation of skills and an income to pay for her schooling.

As a first step, she should look for jobs that interest her, and note the required skills.  That way, she would have an idea of what skills to develop.

As a relevant side note, I have a ton of friends that studied art, design, creative writing, music, painting, and a ton of other fine arts.  For the most part these degrees are not worth the money.  Most of these people are working in the service industry or piecing together "gigs" while trying to pay off their huge debt, praying that it will disappear after years of income-based repayment.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: TomTX on April 21, 2014, 07:14:00 PM
Community college, trade school, military - or get a job.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: b4u2 on April 21, 2014, 07:19:04 PM
I had her mom read this and she thought it was good enough to have her read it. She didn't have an open mind. Barley even got past my opening post. Tried to get her to read the whole thing and she just walked out. All I want her to do is understand what this is going to cost and how she intends to pay for it. She thinks loans will solve her problems. I have already tried to explain that they are only offering $5500 to her in loans. She has $600 saved and there might be one scholarship she can get for $2600 per year. She needs $16,000 per year for this college. I no longer know what to do.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Argyle on April 21, 2014, 07:38:04 PM
She's just demonstrating her unreadiness further, isn't she?

You don't have to do anything -- you have all the leverage.  You cannot afford to pay for her $16K expenses.  You are under no obligation to take out any loans.  I would only do so if she showed that she is very serious and mature about taking on college and debt.  And clearly she is not at that point.  So: what's her solution?  If she refuses to consider reality, what is her idea of what happens next?  Apart from "you pay for her college and she doesn't bother about anything," which is not possible, even if it were advisable.

So she'll have to stay home next year and work, or else move out and work. 

It's unfortunate that you didn't have this discussion over a period of time starting many years ago (if I understand correctly), so that she's grown up thinking that the money would appear and there would be no problem.  That's what's happened for most kids' childhoods, so it's no wonder they think it will keep on happening.  But sadly that's not a possibilty.  So she'll learn as things unfold.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: socaso on April 21, 2014, 07:58:03 PM
My brother did his first two years at CC then got his BS at a state university. My sister got her Associate's at CC. My husband went to trade school. All of the aforementioned people have good-paying jobs and no loan to repay. I took out one small loan for $3k and it took me 10 years to pay the damn thing back. She MUST understand what she is getting herself into with the loans. Is there anyone in your family who has struggled to pay back student loans and could offer her some real world perspective? I have friends moving into their 40's who feel they cannot afford to buy homes or have families because they are still paying back their student loans.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MayDay on April 21, 2014, 08:32:32 PM
Gosh, this sounds like a challenging parenting time for you.  She isn't showing the maturity that I am sure you hoped she would by this stage of her life at home (ie, almost done at home!). Anyway, just wanted to give you some parenting sympathy.  Kids can be such pills sometimes!
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: happyfeet on April 21, 2014, 08:48:49 PM
Ah parenting a teenager!  I feel for you.  College is expensive.  Both of my kids have many friends who went to college and didn't finish, took 5/6 years, flunked out, or majored in something that did not result in a good paying job.  College should not be a four year expensive party/finding yourself.  It just costs too much money.

I suggest Community college and then two years of the state school.  In our state here all the CC credits transfer to the state school.  You get to have that fancy degree for a lot less money.

If she can't get the full loan - I do not recommend taking out the balance in your name.  You have all the power.  She has enough for CC to get started.  She may be even to work part time and graphic design and go to CC.

Best of luck.  Never easy.

Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Weedy Acres on April 21, 2014, 09:01:22 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Debt-Free-Outstanding-Education-Scholarships-Mooching/dp/1591842980

Is a great book on this topic.  Would she read it?
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: iris lily on April 21, 2014, 09:24:35 PM
hey dad, I beg you, don't throw money at this problem. Let your daughter figure it out.  I think the complicating factor is that she's a "step" daughter but she's just the first--you'll have the same problem with all of the others, you guys can't fund college for her in a conventional free ride way for her. There are tons of middle class kids in the same boat. It's ok, you are not a bad parent! Please don't beat yourself up over this.

Start defining now what you will pay for and what you will not pay for such as: you'll provide a roof and food while she lives at home taking at least 12 credit hours. If she falls below 12 credit hours, she'll need to be working at least 30 hours a week. You will not pay for a car. You will pay for a bus pass. You will not pay for etc etc.

Really--the boundaries need to be defined and communicated. It's in her best interest for her to have skin in the game and for you to define what that means for her.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: ch12 on April 21, 2014, 09:35:59 PM
http://www.madfientist.com/how-to-retire-early-with-13-kids/

Community college for two years is the answer when you have a lot of kids. She should be responsible for paying for part of her own tuition. Starting life debt-free is a REALLY big deal, and I'd encourage you to encourage her to try to do so, in whatever way she can.

Start defining now what you will pay for and what you will not pay for such as: you'll provide a roof and food while she lives at home taking at least 12 credit hours. If she falls below 12 credit hours, she'll need to be working at least 30 hours a week. You will not pay for a car. You will pay for a bus pass. You will not pay for etc etc.

Really--the boundaries need to be defined and communicated. It's in her best interest for her to have skin in the game and for you to define what that means for her.

And when I say "whatever way," it's nowhere as extreme as iris lily. I graduated college with 211 credit hours, and there were times when I had 20+ credit hours and 2 jobs. I was by no means a slacker in college. However, parental support is really important during college. That's why it's a good idea for her to live at home while she earns an associate's degree, and then she will be able to figure out what she wants to do. You are taking this burden on yourself to make decisions, while they are actually her decisions to make. Give her the baseline of community college, then see what your family can come up with together, knowing that there are 5 kids.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: mm1970 on April 21, 2014, 09:53:06 PM
I'm not sure there is anything you CAN do.

You've told her you cannot pay.

She is unlikely to be loaned the rest of the money for a year of college.

That means she can't go.  I mean, she'll figure it out eventually.  She may squeak out a year before she realizes it.

Anyway, time to grow up.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: galliver on April 21, 2014, 09:58:00 PM
You are right.

But...let's realize that having one's hopes and dreams dashed is hard and painful, and that as the responsible/adult party you should have started this conversation much sooner. It's also possible that you've encouraged/built up her belief that she was going to college, and CC probably feels like a cheap copout (not saying it is, but that is the predominant culture/view).

It's ok to sympathize with her pain but of course you can't change the facts. Give her some time to get herself together. Some harsh reality just hit her in the face after all.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Emg03063 on April 21, 2014, 10:01:58 PM
Out of curiosity, are there ex-spouses in the picture that will be contributing to the educations of these kids? (Not that it changes any of the advice received from my perspective).
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: wizlem on April 21, 2014, 10:04:43 PM
I agree with most of the posters above. Have her live at home and go to Kirkwood for 1/2 the tuition of the 3 state schools in Iowa. If she thinks she'll lose interest because it's community college, I don't think going to "real" college is going to help the situation. If she can get her shit together for 2 years there then she can transfer to UNI.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: roboto on April 22, 2014, 03:06:04 AM
I remarried into extra kids. It was a sudden jump from 2 kids to 5 kids. We have told them all we cannot cover costs. What we do for one we would have to do for 5 and that just isn't feasible. I am still paying for my loans (58K). No one helped me get into or pay for college and I came from a large family. I never expected my parents to pay for my college nor do I feel like they should have. She was supposed to be saving while she worked part time. We got her last bank account and she has just thrown money away on crap. She started out doing so well and now she only has what we originally put in a cd (500?). We have encouraged her to work more hours this summer but she wants to "enjoy" the last summer of freedom before starting college. I will probably look into trying to get her private loans in her name if possible. May Discover student loans?

She is interested in graphic design. Not sure what the field has in store for her. She has done a lot of plays and vocal. She has done set work and play production. She writes a lot. She has also done some computer graphics for different classes.

The college is in state and is a very good college here in Iowa. The distance would be too far to drive daily.

She also feels that if she goes to a community college and not a 4 year college that she won't stick with it. I really hope she does but if not why would I want to be stuck with that debt? I am still digging myself out from my own past mistakes.

Echoing the thoughts that she isn't ready.. and somehow it feels like she's headed to college because it's a life progression path kinda thing.

I've not been to college, when I was done with high school my mother told me straight up that she can't afford to send me to college, and my only other choice is to go to a polytechnic - which is somewhat like vocational school/community college. I took it, graduated and am working, saving up to try to go to college with minimal debt.

Perhaps you might have to be assertive, drive the point that there is zero chance you are paying for her college education and that if she really want to go to a 'real' college, she'll have to find her own way to afford it.

It's probably best that she knows what she's in for if you decide to introduce her the private loan option. It would be an unfair burden on her to graduate and reality strikes where she finds herself like many millennials out there with a low wage job and a hefty debt. I think at the age of 18 she should be growing up to start to take responsibility of her choices and actions.

If she's not certain she's going to stick with the tertiary education she'll receive, community college or otherwise, maybe she should consider taking something like a gap year. Working is definitely the best way to grow and learn to prioritize things.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: NewStachian on April 22, 2014, 05:24:45 AM
My advice comes with a huge grain of salt. My parents forked out $20k a year in private high school and every one of my report cards came back with "isn't performing to his abilities". It must have driven my parents insane in retrospect. I was looking at expensive schools, but something in the back of my head told me I should go somewhere that forced me to grow up. I ended up going to a free military school and it was the best decision I ever made for myself. Among the many things I learned there were work ethic and appreciation.

So, the Mustachian that I am today, a few years from FIRE'ing at 35 wants to say everything that's already been said here. She's not ready. She needs to learn what it's really like out there. Those are all true, of course. She's a coaster like I was through high school. It's hard to look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself that as a 17-18 year old. In all fairness to kids that age, there's a lot going on in their minds, as there was in mine. These thoughts may seem trivial to us who have forgotten them, or have been exposed to more, but we've had a lot more time to figure these things out. It's unrealistic to think we can just impose this knowledge on kids and expect them to take it (although we hope they do, must like our parents hoped to do with us)

Having said all that, my advice is to let her know that no matter what, you will be there to help her through this process. You will answer all her questions to the best of your ability and support her, but you're not paying for it. This might be a rude wake up call that she appreciates down the road. Or, it might work out terribly and she will resent you. But, now's the time to set the ground rules. The simple fact is you don't even have your own finances in order (not judging why, but it is what it is), so taking on hers is a massive mistake.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: teen persuasion on April 22, 2014, 08:13:31 AM
http://ifap.ed.gov/efcformulaguide/attachments/091913EFCFormulaGuide1415.pdf (http://ifap.ed.gov/efcformulaguide/attachments/091913EFCFormulaGuide1415.pdf)

Here is a link to the EFC formulas.  You can work thru all the calculations to see how the FAFSA comes up with your Expected Family Contribution.  Seeing how the formulas use your income/asset/family size/age numbers will give you an idea of how you might be able to adjust finances to maximize your EFC.

You are late in looking at financial aid considerations.  The FAFSA you just filled out (for the upcoming school year) is based on last year's income/tax return (2013), so any financial aid planning or changes would have needed to be made before 2013.

As far as scholarships, have your child visit the HS guidance office to apply for ALL available local scholarships.  There are usually a variety of Rotary, FFA, 4H, Vet's Post, etc. small scholarships, but small amounts can add up.  These groups often leave the decision making to the guidance counselors, so you have to make sure they know you want to be considered for these awards.  Being active in sports, music, clubs, outside activities and volunteering are all important to meet the requirements for the awards; each group has a different set of criteria, but I have seen that "extras" are a common theme.

Has your child applied to any other colleges?  I've only seen one mentioned.  Different colleges will give different aid packages.  My DD1's first choice college gapped her $16k, and she appealed, but they just mentioned parent loans (no way!), so she moved on to her second choice, and was very happy there.  We were even happier, since it was only 50 miles from home, vs. another state for 1st choice.  DS2 was having trouble deciding between 2 of the colleges he was accepted at - the more prestigious college offered more aid, but he was really leaning towards another one that offered slightly less aid.  He contacted them and asked if they could match the other college's package.  They asked to see the package, and then increased his aid to beat it.  Win - win.

One of the biggest obstacles that I have seen in college is what major to choose; without any real work experience (other than typical teen jobs), most teens have no idea of what they want to do, or what a given job really entails.  I believe that many would benefit from working for a few years before college, to gain exposure to the work world and see if a field is really what they want to do.  Yes, they will be starting at the very bottom, and probably can't actually get the "cool" job they are shooting for without the degree, but they will hopefully see what their aspirational job holders actually have to do, how hard they work, what skills they need.  Better to learn that a job/field is not for you before you spend years and $$ on the degree, or if you really are confirmed that a field is right for you, you might receive company aid to go to school for the training you require.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: bogart on April 22, 2014, 09:52:12 AM
I remarried into extra kids. It was a sudden jump from 2 kids to 5 kids. We have told them all we cannot cover costs. What we do for one we would have to do for 5 and that just isn't feasible. I am still paying for my loans (58K). No one helped me get into or pay for college and I came from a large family. I never expected my parents to pay for my college nor do I feel like they should have. She was supposed to be saving while she worked part time. We got her last bank account and she has just thrown money away on crap. She started out doing so well and now she only has what we originally put in a cd (500?). We have encouraged her to work more hours this summer but she wants to "enjoy" the last summer of freedom before starting college. I will probably look into trying to get her private loans in her name if possible. May Discover student loans?

...

She also feels that if she goes to a community college and not a 4 year college that she won't stick with it. I really hope she does but if not why would I want to be stuck with that debt? I am still digging myself out from my own past mistakes.

I also married into kids, and we paid for them to go to college.  So I'm empathetic to the basic problem and inclined to pay for kids' education.  Including stepkids!

But.  The kid you are describing isn't ready to go to college.  My advice to you is to do nothing.  Tell her you cannot afford to contribute to her education or, if you prefer to do so, offer to contribute some modest amount ($2,000?) per year and tell her she'll need to make up the difference.  Then let her figure out how to do so.  Don't co-sign anything.

My best guess is she'll take a year to figure out how she can put herself through school, and then go, and that you'll be doing both her and yourself a favor.  Good luck to you, it's a hard position to be in.








Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: randymarsh on April 22, 2014, 10:06:23 AM
She also feels that if she goes to a community college and not a 4 year college that she won't stick with it. I really hope she does but if not why would I want to be stuck with that debt? I am still digging myself out from my own past mistakes.

Well with that attitude, she's right!

I went right into a 4 year school but over the past year or 2 I've been wondering if that was the best choice. I could have saved so much money going to a CC. Instead I owe 70K. I don't recommend that for anyone, much less someone who may be going into graphic design/writing.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: birdman2003 on April 22, 2014, 10:18:45 AM
Hello fellow Iowan.

If she wants to party, Kirkwood or Iowa are excellent.  If she likes a good old fashioned VEISHEA riot, consider ISU.  I'm not sure why you would go to Cedar Falls.

But seriously, she (and you if you're going to co-sign loans) will need to determine what her occupation will be and then pick the school or combination of schools that best prepare her skills in order to get that first job.  College costs too much to guess and experiment on what you'll like or not like. 

You mentioned she was thinking about graphic design.  Companies that hire a freelancing graphic designer don't care where the designer acquired their skills or how much they paid to acquire those skills.  They want to see your portfolio + websites you've built to demonstrate your skills.

If she wants to get a STEM degree, university is a good choice.  I did engineering at ISU for 4 years and had classmates who did the 2 years at DMACC plus 2 years at ISU (except it was more like 2 years at DMACC plus 3-4 years at ISU because although you can knock out 2 years of gen eds at the community college, once you get to the university you need more than 2 years to finish your program because they have pre-req courses that are usually only offered 1x per year in the spring or fall semester).

But step 1 is to honestly evaluate what she wants to do with her life.  If it's not working in a STEM field, don't start down the road to university.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Cpa Cat on April 22, 2014, 10:25:17 AM
What we spend our money on indicates what we value. You have explained elsewhere that you want to drive a certain vehicle, and borrow money for vacation toys, leaving you broke.  So, you have no money to help your step-daughter get a hand up in life. Dude, that is messed up. I know I would have resented my parents if they spent a lot of money on that stuff and wouldn't have helped me in any way for university. Her education should come above your expensive to maintain suburban and your vacation toys. Do I think you should take a loan out to pay for her school? No! However, you need to reprioritize your life so that her education ranks above these other things.

She should work now, this summer, and during college as many of us did, so that she can pay what she can. But, since you could come up with some funds to assist her if you wanted to, you really should be a bit more helpful.

Mom of 5 is right. As an adult, I disagree with the principle that you owe your kids an education. But I remember being an 18 year old girl. I remember how going to university was "OMG RIGHT NOW SO IMPORTANT!!!11!!" I can see myself throwing a tantrum when confronted with a forum full of strangers telling me I can't have what I want, the way I want it, RIGHT THIS MINUTE.

And clearly, selling your toys and then giving her all the money so that she can use it to go the university that all her friends are going to (instead of the more sensible CC that she's poo-poo'd) is a short term solution to a long term problem - since there are 4 more kids waiting in line behind her. And I guarantee if you sell all that stuff and then have nothing left for THOSE kids, then they will be the ones who resent you.

That's why I want to reiterate that you need to bring the whole family together to discuss the plan on how each and every one of them gets through college. Everyone makes cuts now so that the family can contribute X per month. Everyone does without cable. Everyone downgrades the cellphones. Everyone deals with having fewer vehicles/toys/extracurriculars.

That said - this isn't going to help your oldest much. $200 per month doesn't afford her the university that she wants. It will be hard for her, but ultimately, when she can't pay her tuition bill, she will accept that she needs to make another plan.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Rebecca Stapler on April 22, 2014, 12:28:44 PM
If you can't pay, you can't pay and she can't go. For now.

How about striking a deal with her that she defer matriculation for a year, and work. While she works, you will match whatever she saves for college -- dollar for dollar -- into a 529 account (it can ONLY be used for education) or some sort of escrow account that she can't touch. That way, she will not only get the benefit of her hard work, she will see that you are ready and willing to help her; and she stands a good chance of actually getting enough saved for 2 years worth of college, then figuring out the rest of the two years (with work study, being a Resident Advisor, applying for scholarships, etc.)

For that matter, you can strike the same deal with your other children now, so they don't get caught flat-footed their senior year.

I don't know about your spending habits, so I'm going to leave that one alone until you post your side of the story.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Nords on April 22, 2014, 12:44:47 PM
She was supposed to be saving while she worked part time. We got her last bank account and she has just thrown money away on crap. She started out doing so well and now she only has what we originally put in a cd (500?). We have encouraged her to work more hours this summer but she wants to "enjoy" the last summer of freedom before starting college.

She is interested in graphic design. Not sure what the field has in store for her. She has done a lot of plays and vocal. She has done set work and play production. She writes a lot. She has also done some computer graphics for different classes.

She also feels that if she goes to a community college and not a 4 year college that she won't stick with it.
This lack of college readiness is how many high-school graduates (including me) joined the military...
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MKinVA on April 22, 2014, 01:16:20 PM
Do not get on the hook to pay for her college. As you say, you have four more after her. She can go and rack up the student loans and regret it for the rest of her life like the rest of us do. Or if she is really mature enough to do well in college, she can go community college, then transfer, then have a much lighter load of loans to pay. Once she graduates, she can look into a public job or nonprofit which would allow the forgiveness of her loans after 10 years of employment (and paying on the loans during that time). Someone also posted about a program where you sign up to donate time, physical labor, etc., and the charity pays on your loans.

also, if you want to help her later on and can afford to, student loans are the cheapest money around when compared to taking out a second mortgage to pay for college or credit cards or personal loans,.......
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: b4u2 on April 22, 2014, 03:58:38 PM
There have been some good advice posted here and a few shots at me.

I have two degrees which I got both on my own. My parents could not afford to pay for my college and my many brothers and sisters. I grew up learning you pay for what you want. My only regret is that I did not find a site such as this to help teach me to get myself out of debt. Since I didn't, and I just found this site this year, it makes it impossible to try and play catch up. So we are dealing with the present and paying off the past. Which for my wife and I right now means incurring no new debt. I want to teach my kids to be responsible and learn from my mistakes, not repeat them.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: mozar on April 22, 2014, 05:15:30 PM
The best thing you can do for your kid right now is to say no. If you help her you will be starting on the path of enabling her poor decisions, possibly for the rest of her life.

My parents always said that they would help me with college. I went to the school that offered me the least aid and took out 100k in private loans. When all my loans came due I asked my parents for help and they said no. They didn't have the money and they never did have any money. I think they just said that because they thought it would make them sound middle class.
After a couple of years of working retail I had an oh crap moment about my $2000 a month debt payments and got a 35k masters degree in accounting. 7 years later I have paid off all my student loans and have bought a small house. Do I resent my parents? Hell yeah! But I turned my life around and realized that making a life on my own feels great.

It's hard to watch your kid fail but the sooner she makes mistakes the longer she has in life to recover. Some people have to make their own mistakes in life. She will learn from your mistakes when she is ready.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: RMD on April 22, 2014, 05:35:46 PM
I wasn't ready for college.  Mom had a rule.  She paid until you screwed up.  I was done my first semester.  I wandered through institutions of higher learning; Universities, Colleges, Technical Colleges, a Business School, Community College...I am an expert at transferring. ;). I loved being a student...I just wasn't very good at it.  Mind you, I did all of this without a single student loan and incurred zero debt.  I finally got serious when I had enough credit hours for a Masters but none came from one institution...I earned my Bachelors degree at age 39.  (And, now at age 43, I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.)

All this to say...if she wants it, she will figure it out. She will waste money doing it...let it be her own.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: fljason on April 22, 2014, 05:37:54 PM
The military will pay for schooling. and you may get a chance to see the world. if the military is an option for the other children see if they have a JROTC at their high schools.  Many students come to Virginia Tech as cadets and have all 4 years of their college education paid for and than you get have a guaranteed job for at least 5 years out of school.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: randomstring on April 22, 2014, 06:57:01 PM
Well our first kid is going to college this fall. Basically my wife and I just started on this FI path and are still paying our debts. We have no money for college. She only got student loan for $5500. Then apparently the parents (US) can borrow 13k for the other part. The cost of the college is about 16k a year including housing, food, books, and misc fees.

My wife and I have 5 kids total. We cannot afford to pay for each kid to go to school. I need help with understanding what to do. She has applied for grants and scholarships and waiting to hear back on those. She isn't the greatest student so not holding my breath.

What are some resources I can read up on?

I don't have an actionable advice about talking to your kid, but I do have some money/school advice. Make sure she fills out all financial aid applications (FAFSA, etc.) and submits them on time. Even if she does not qualify for school's own financial aid, or federal grants, she may qualify for work study. I went to college a while back, and work study was very useful in allowing me to work on campus. There are lots of campus jobs that will go to work study students only (because essentially the employer only pays 50% or so). So all these nice research jobs, student computer support jobs, library jobs, etc. they are mostly open to work study students.

Why should she want on-campus job? Because she can schedule shifts around her classes. Because she does not have to commute. Because employers are used to having student employees and will be flexible. Work study allows a student to work 20 hours a week.

If it is too late to fill out financial aid forms, she can defer for a year, fill out financial aid paperwork and meanwhile find some full time work (with, possibly, a night class in community college).

Good luck. If she is really set on going away to college, you should support her. By helping her with paperwork, helping her set up budget spreadsheet, networking to help her get a local job. I don't think you need to get into more debt over this though.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: bogart on April 22, 2014, 08:57:20 PM

But seriously, she (and you if you're going to co-sign loans) will need to determine what her occupation will be and then pick the school or combination of schools that best prepare her skills in order to get that first job.  College costs too much to guess and experiment on what you'll like or not like. 


For the record (having already participated in this discussion), I disagree nearly fully with this statement; I'm a huge fan of liberal-arts education and of kids going to school not knowing what they want to study.  I say that not to start an argument here -- I really don't think it's relevant to this discussion where one stand on this point.  My point, rather, is that even as someone who feels the way I do (and the opposite of how birdman2003 feels), I still stand by my earlier position that this kid -- the OP's kid -- isn't ready to go to college.  It's one thing to go to school "just" for a good liberal arts education (something I am a fan of).  It's another thing to go to school without a sense of the value or cost of an education, and with no plans to be serious about obtaining one -- and that's what appears to me to be true of the OP's kid, right now.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: HairyUpperLip on April 23, 2014, 06:52:22 AM
She is interested in graphic design. Not sure what the field has in store for her. She has done a lot of plays and vocal. She has done set work and play production. She writes a lot. She has also done some computer graphics for different classes.

The college is in state and is a very good college here in Iowa. The distance would be too far to drive daily.


Send her to Dubuque. See if she can get a job at IBM. Apartments can be had for as little as $4-500 a month including utilities.

She's wasting her time, life, and money if she pursues graphic design. But good luck either way.

Already lots of other good advice in this thread.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MrsPete on April 23, 2014, 08:25:53 AM
I remarried into extra kids. It was a sudden jump from 2 kids to 5 kids. We have told them all we cannot cover costs. What we do for one we would have to do for 5 and that just isn't feasible.
You're wise to consider this.  I know more than a few people who've started out BIG with their first child, only to realize that they hadn't considered that they'd begun something unsustainable. 

She was supposed to be saving while she worked part time. We got her last bank account and she has just thrown money away on crap. She started out doing so well and now she only has what we originally put in a cd (500?). We have encouraged her to work more hours this summer but she wants to "enjoy" the last summer of freedom before starting college.
You knew this would be all the money she had for college, and you trusted her to monitor it on her own?  Kids need guidance in this area.  This, coupled with your comment that she isn't particularly a stellar student, is a hint that she lacks the self-discipline for college at this point.  Regardless, she was never going to earn 16K working part time, and the answer to "We aren't prepared" isn't "Let's just borrow and worry about it later".

Yeah, my daughter, who has been so responsible in so many ways, pulled that "it's my last summer" thing too -- and we allowed her to reap the consequences of that choice.  She had everything she needed in college, but we did not provide spending money, so often during her freshman year she had to say, "I'd like to ___, but I can't."  She learned. 
I will probably look into trying to get her private loans in her name if possible. May Discover student loans?.
You just said you're still paying off your student loans, and you're willing to let her go down that same road?  The right choice is a less expensive option. 
She also feels that if she goes to a community college and not a 4 year college that she won't stick with it.
I'd ask her to expand upon this thought.  Why does she think that attending a smaller, more affordable college would mean she wouldn't "stick with it"?  She'd have ahead of her the carrot of being able to move to the university later, she'd have the motivation of knowing that good grades would be necessary to make the move.  What I'm hearing is a teenaged whine, "But it's not what I want."  And I don't disagree:  I never wanted to go to community college either, but I worked like a dog for what I did want -- during the school year, during the summer, all the time. 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MrsPete on April 23, 2014, 08:35:33 AM
This kid isn't ready to be dropped off in on-campus housing. That Summer of "freedom" is going to turn into a first semester of partying.

And if she's telling you she won't stick with community college, then what makes you think she can stick with regular college? There's a clear message that she's more interested in being with her friends than she is in higher education.

FYI - It is HIGHLY unlikely that you will get private student loans without co-signing. And the moment you co-sign, that's your debt. She will probably default it right into your lap.
Well, my daughter really wanted that "last summer before college", and her lowest grade that first semester was an A- in Chem lab.  She has always been very focused and very serious about her grades. 

I agree with your other points though, and I'll add this thought for the OP: I strongly suggest you do not co-sign for loans.  You can't stop her from getting the small loans she can get on her own, and the fact that they won't cover a 16K bill should be a hint to her.  With so many red flags, nothing good will come of this situation, and you shouldn't encourage her towards folly. 

If you do go ahead and co-sign for loans, absolutely get life insurance on her.  The worst-worst-worst thing that could happen is that somehow she dies . . . and you're still stuck for her loans.  Because she's young and healthy and is very unlikely to die, a policy that'll cover the loans is very inexpensive.  With four more children coming along, you can't afford not to do this. 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MrsPete on April 23, 2014, 08:36:56 AM
The smart kids go to schools they can afford, end of story.
Absolutely!  And just because someone else can afford more doesn't mean you should borrow. 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MrsPete on April 23, 2014, 08:45:28 AM
You don't have to do anything -- you have all the leverage. 
No, no, the OP doesn't have all the leverage.  If he does nothing, it's true that the girl cannot borrow the 16K on her own, and she will be caught between the choices of "go to community college" (which I suspect the 5500 + 600 will cover) or "do nothing". 

BUT his wife isn't willing to listen to reason (and math), and she can co-sign for those loans without him.  The wife is the one who really has to get on board with this.  She is the loose cannon in this scenario.  I'd say the big point for her is, Can you do this for the other four?  Can you co-sign and potentially pay off 64K (or more) for four more kids? 

My guess:  Most parents have a vision for their kids' futures.  High school graduation, college, good job, marriage, a home, good job, children.  Even if the daughter in question hasn't been a stellar student and hasn't shown strong motivation for college, Mom is still dreaming the dream, and the next step is college!  She's willing to overlook the red flags because she's so sure that the daughter is also on board with the dream.  As a high school teacher, I see this scenario year after year after year.  If you have to force the pieces to come together, if something's just not right . . . it's going to fall apart, and it's going to happen after only a semester or two.  The worst possibility is to have to continue paying for the loans after the dream is gone.

Instead, choose something attainable. 
Choose something within the girl's grasp.
Choose a school where she'll be successful and won't be selling her future away.   
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MrsPete on April 23, 2014, 08:58:04 AM
One of the biggest obstacles that I have seen in college is what major to choose; without any real work experience (other than typical teen jobs), most teens have no idea of what they want to do, or what a given job really entails.  I believe that many would benefit from working for a few years before college, to gain exposure to the work world and see if a field is really what they want to do.  Yes, they will be starting at the very bottom, and probably can't actually get the "cool" job they are shooting for without the degree, but they will hopefully see what their aspirational job holders actually have to do, how hard they work, what skills they need.  Better to learn that a job/field is not for you before you spend years and $$ on the degree, or if you really are confirmed that a field is right for you, you might receive company aid to go to school for the training you require.
This is why my husband and I have put so much effort into getting our teens into various experiences that'll give them a glimpse of what various jobs are like -- vocational classes in high school, volunteer experiences in the community.  Our oldest was easy:  She always wanted something medical, so she took the high school classes and volunteered at the hospital -- she considered becoming a midwife, a pharmacist, and a couple other things, but finally she said she'd always known she was an RN at heart; she's halfway through her college education now and has never looked aside from that goal.  Our youngest is proving harder, but she's found several things that are NOT for her!  We're still working on finding her shadowing experiences, etc. 

I teach remedial and general level high school students, and SO MANY of them claim they intend to go into unattainable jobs:  Neurosurgeon, pediatric oncologist, lawyer, etc.  You don't suddenly go from a .75 GPA and 20 absences per semester to honors student and professional career person.  100% of my students who are teenaged mothers want to be either L&D nurses or OB/GYNs.  So many of my students have only a vague idea that "working in a hospital pays well and would be fun!" or "I like to argue, so I'll be a great lawyer", and they seem to have an idea that anyone who isn't in a really good job just chose poorly -- but they can't see that their own lackluster performance is locking them into lackluster jobs for the future. 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MrsPete on April 23, 2014, 09:07:13 AM
Mom of 5 is right. As an adult, I disagree with the principle that you owe your kids an education. But I remember being an 18 year old girl. I remember how going to university was "OMG RIGHT NOW SO IMPORTANT!!!11!!" I can see myself throwing a tantrum when confronted with a forum full of strangers telling me I can't have what I want, the way I want it, RIGHT THIS MINUTE.
I disagree with your disagreement: You do owe your child HELP with an education.  That doesn't mean, however, that you should have been able to save the entire cost of a 4-year university education or that you should go into debt to make it happen.  You absolutely owe your child guidance and support, and I'd be ashamed to say I wouldn't pay anything at all -- even just picking up the text book costs would be something.  At the very least, allowing the adult child to live at home IS financial support. 

I can relate to the feeling that I needed to go to a university RIGHT NOW!  Teens do tend to judge themselves by their standing in relationship to others, and if other people are going to a university and I'm not . . . well, something must be wrong with me!  That's immature thinking, of course, but we are talking about a teen.  However, if going to university RIGHT NOW is all that important, she would be making more steps towards making it happen. 

 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MrsPete on April 23, 2014, 09:10:37 AM
This lack of college readiness is how many high-school graduates (including me) joined the military...
I tell my students all the time:  I was an honors student in high school.  Motivated, smart, completely ready for college.  But if I could be 18 again, I'd do a stint in the military before going to college.  I'd grow up a few more years, live cheap and save every penny, and then go to school using my savings and the GI Bill.  And then I'd always have veteran's benefits available to me. 

I never considered that path when I was finishing high school -- it wasn't something that smart kids, especially girls, considered in the 80s -- but in retrospect, it would've been my best option. 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MrsPete on April 23, 2014, 09:14:06 AM
I wasn't ready for college.  Mom had a rule.  She paid until you screwed up.
We have that rule too.  We will gladly, happily pay for Semester 1.  When we see good grades and progress towards graduation, we will gladly, happily pay for Semester 2.  If that doesn't happen, we'll fall back and regroup.  They can always come home, but we won't continue to finance lackluster performance. 

I've never understood why this isn't everyone's rule.  I've never understood how some kids manage to bilk their parents out of years of non-productive college.  One semester, yes, a kid could fool you -- but if you allow it to continue semester after semester, you're to blame! 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MrsPete on April 23, 2014, 09:17:13 AM
Why should she want on-campus job? Because she can schedule shifts around her classes. Because she does not have to commute. Because employers are used to having student employees and will be flexible. Work study allows a student to work 20 hours a week.
I'll second this.  My oldest is a nursing student and is already a CNA, and she works on campus at the health center.  She can walk to work, and her boss is nothing but understanding about working around her schedule.  However, she's NOT work-study.  Lots of jobs on campus aren't.  She also earns more than minimum wage, whereas work-study is always minimum wage. 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Gin1984 on April 23, 2014, 09:36:40 AM
Why should she want on-campus job? Because she can schedule shifts around her classes. Because she does not have to commute. Because employers are used to having student employees and will be flexible. Work study allows a student to work 20 hours a week.
I'll second this.  My oldest is a nursing student and is already a CNA, and she works on campus at the health center.  She can walk to work, and her boss is nothing but understanding about working around her schedule.  However, she's NOT work-study.  Lots of jobs on campus aren't.  She also earns more than minimum wage, whereas work-study is always minimum wage.
Not always, my work-study, though my department was over minimum wage.  However, I did not get a placement from the financial aid department, my department offered.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: eil on April 23, 2014, 09:51:30 AM
This thread illustrates perfectly what's wrong with the "you must go to college in order to be a successful adult" mentality that haunts our culture. My highly opinionated stance is this: you go to college if, and only if, both of the following are true:

1) You can afford it. (Meaning you have a scholarship, or charitable parents.)
2) You want to work in a field that absolutely requires a degree (and no, most well-paying middle-class jobs do not, contrary to popular opinion), or want to be an academic.

Kids who want to go to college because they don't know what else to do after high school are being led down the garden path of wasted years and decades of student loan debt. You only go to college if you know exactly what you want to study and why. If you're 18 and don't have any idea what you want to do, then you're either an extraordinarily boring person or spent too much of your youth passively consuming entertainment in the form of TV and video games.

I have some familiarity with this because that was me when I was 18. I was a coaster throughout high school, I couldn't afford college, my parents wouldn't pay for my college, there were few job prospects where I grew up, and I wasn't allowed to stay home. My lifeboat was the military. Once I completed my training and landed at my first permanent duty station, I had tons of free time in the evenings and found out that I was a computer geek. Finished up my four years of service and started working in I.T.  A decade later I'm now a software engineer making very close to six digits, live in a beautiful house with a wife and dog and 2.5 children, etc. And I still don't have a college degree.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: galliver on April 23, 2014, 10:05:44 AM
Dear proponents of the military, I'm truly glad that you had good experiences, but you need to acknowledge that it is not the panacea of post-high-school employment and college funding. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it's just not a good fit for many people.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Gin1984 on April 23, 2014, 10:08:43 AM
I am pretty pro-parents paying for as much college as they can afford.  I consider it a required part of raising a child, in most cases.  Now, reading about this girl, I would not hand her so much as a penny.  She does not sound ready for college AT ALL.  This is her life and she needs to be helping with figuring a plan to pay for it. I'd highly recommend you and her mother talking and trying to convince her mother to get her to do Ameri-corp.  It is normally a year (she can take up to 8 units a semester, if she wants), last I checked they give $5000 at the end of the year for college and if she has to move (often you do), it is a great life lesson on how to live cheap.  That way she will have at least $5000 of cash (plus the $5500 of loans) and frankly $5500 is reasonable for a college kid to earn over the year.    She also should applying to a scholarship every week, possibly up to 5 a week and that should have started at least in the beginning of this month.  She is not applying herself to go to college, why are you?
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: lackofstache on April 23, 2014, 11:02:49 AM
This thread illustrates perfectly what's wrong with the "you must go to college in order to be a successful adult" mentality that haunts our culture. My highly opinionated stance is this: you go to college if, and only if, both of the following are true:

1) You can afford it. (Meaning you have a scholarship, or charitable parents.)
2) You want to work in a field that absolutely requires a degree (and no, most well-paying middle-class jobs do not, contrary to popular opinion), or want to be an academic.

Kids who want to go to college because they don't know what else to do after high school are being led down the garden path of wasted years and decades of student loan debt. You only go to college if you know exactly what you want to study and why. If you're 18 and don't have any idea what you want to do, then you're either an extraordinarily boring person or spent too much of your youth passively consuming entertainment in the form of TV and video games.

I have some familiarity with this because that was me when I was 18. I was a coaster throughout high school, I couldn't afford college, my parents wouldn't pay for my college, there were few job prospects where I grew up, and I wasn't allowed to stay home. My lifeboat was the military. Once I completed my training and landed at my first permanent duty station, I had tons of free time in the evenings and found out that I was a computer geek. Finished up my four years of service and started working in I.T.  A decade later I'm now a software engineer making very close to six digits, live in a beautiful house with a wife and dog and 2.5 children, etc. And I still don't have a college degree.

This is as over the top as anything I've read. There are no one size fits all. I had NO IDEA what the hell I wanted to do. I had no money either, but I worked out a plan, went to school and graduated w/ $4k in student loans. I took 5 years, paying by the credit hour, which allowed me to work part time during school and full time in the summers. I learned a lot in school. I had a lot of fun while in school. I met lifelong friends in school. I don't think everyone should go, but saying you shouldn't go unless you know exactly what you want to do is as ridiculous as saying everyone should go. If there isn't a work ethic or money to do it, I wouldn't and this is an instance of that. I wouldn't send her, but as others have stated that's gonna be up to her mother in some ways.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: randomstring on April 23, 2014, 12:32:39 PM
Why should she want on-campus job? Because she can schedule shifts around her classes. Because she does not have to commute. Because employers are used to having student employees and will be flexible. Work study allows a student to work 20 hours a week.
I'll second this.  My oldest is a nursing student and is already a CNA, and she works on campus at the health center.  She can walk to work, and her boss is nothing but understanding about working around her schedule.  However, she's NOT work-study.  Lots of jobs on campus aren't.  She also earns more than minimum wage, whereas work-study is always minimum wage.
I had a couple nice work study jobs which were not min wage. One was doing research. Another was writing software. Both were available to work study students only. It is possible this varies by campus, but work study does not equal minimum wage.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: quilter on April 23, 2014, 01:06:39 PM
Just went back and read your post on your budget. Toy hauler. Harley.  Season tickets to sports game. Eating out.

This is the example your children have seen. You can't finance anything and have everything.  Time to sit down with your wife and make a plan for your financial future. Then you need to sit down with your kids and make a plan.  You can't have it all unless you want to work until you drop dead at work at a very old age.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Nords on April 26, 2014, 10:15:50 PM
Dear proponents of the military, I'm truly glad that you had good experiences, but you need to acknowledge that it is not the panacea of post-high-school employment and college funding. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it's just not a good fit for many people.
Well of course we acknowledge that, and we regretted many of the days that we spent in the military.  In fact only 17% of military servicemembers stick around long enough to qualify for a pension (including Reserves and National Guard) so by your "risk tolerance" criteria you could claim that 83% of military veterans were also unsuited for the service.  And once you've been in combat then I bet every military veteran is ideologically and psychologically opposed to war-- I wish I could say the same for the vast majority of Congressional members and White House staffers.

You might notice that the military idea is usually floated when someone (most often the parent) throws up their hands in exasperation and says "This kid just isn't ready for college or a real job, and I don't know what else we can do about it!"  If there was something that was a better fit then we wouldn't even be having the military discussion.

Maybe the reason that the military is not a good fit for many people is because they don't have the skills to be a productive member of society, let alone the military.  Yet what other employer would spend 2-4 years giving them a living wage and free job training in exchange for persistent effort?

There's only one way to determine whether or not the military is a good fit for people, and that's experiential.  (I'm pretty sure it won't happen via video games.)  If a teen can join a JROTC unit in high school then they'll know how they feel about the military.  If a college student can obtain a ROTC scholarship, their first year is totally free of obligation and their tuition is paid for.  If they can get an appointment to a service academy then the first two years (of tuition, room, & board) are free-- sophomore-year attrition is so common at service academies that it's known as the "military junior college program".  If a high-school graduate (or GED holder) can enlist in the service then they learn how to make a commitment that can lead to training, job skills, college money, and a career.

If you have a panacea, or even a better idea, then feel free to spit it out.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Frankies Girl on April 26, 2014, 11:40:53 PM
I'm chiming in as I am a graphic designer, and I'm married to one, and most of my friends are also in the design field.

Unless your daughter is a stellar artist and has huge talent, going into the graphic design field is not going to pay off. She'll be extremely lucky to find a job after graduation making more than $14/hr and crummy (or non-existent) benefits. I've got several friends that are working for less than that right now.

I knew since I was old enough to walk I wanted to be an artist. I don't consider myself a truly gifted/cutting-edge designer, but I'm decently talented and was pretty ambitious in the early days, and I worked my ass off to get where I am. I was still VERY lucky to land the job I currently have as it pays well above what most of my friends make and has good benefits, but it is rare and you definitely won't find much out there unless you live in a larger metropolitan area.

Start researching NOW the types of jobs and pay that she could realistically make with whatever field of study she's thinking of going for - check out job sites to see what type of pay and requirements are available for the jobs she thinks she might be able to get after getting that degree.

She sounds like she's been a less than interested student in high school, hasn't shown any responsibility in saving on her own for her future education and doesn't seem ready at all to make this sort of commitment. Community college while she works part time would be a good compromise. Best solution would be she takes the next year and works her ass off saving up to go to school and gets a better grip on what she wants to be when she grows up... and still goes to community college to get the basics out of the way. I gotta wonder if she's not seeing college as a social thing like most kids do and doesn't want to go someplace that wouldn't have some of her friends. Some kids just aren't ready when they graduate, and there isn't anything wrong with that. What would be wrong would be for you to take out enormous loans to finance her piddling around in a college when she isn't ready and graduating with a degree that she won't be able to make a decent living with or worse, not graduating. Don't do it.

And sounds like she needs a serious talking to. College - of any kind - is NOT a right, and the idea that she said she wouldn't really try hard at community college is another sign that she shouldn't be going anywhere until she matures a bit more. She should be damned grateful if you kick in any amount, and she should be willing to do everything in her power to work hard and save you money and come up with what she can to pay her own way. And she should also stop and think about how much of a burden she'd be putting onto you and her siblings expecting this sort of thing.

Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Gray Matter on April 27, 2014, 09:56:45 AM
You only go to college if you know exactly what you want to study and why. If you're 18 and don't have any idea what you want to do, then you're either an extraordinarily boring person or spent too much of your youth passively consuming entertainment in the form of TV and video games.

Disagree.  I am 43 years old and still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.  My family never had cable, a VCR, or video game devices when I was growing up, so I guess I must be extraordinarily boring, since those are the only two options presented.

The truth is, I am interested in SO MANY THINGS that I had a hell of a time choosing a major, because every time I did, I heard all these other doors to everything else I'd never be slamming shut.  I did pick a major eventually because I had to, graduated with no student debt (did get some help from parents) and went on to get a masters and a Ph.D (paid for 100% in cash by little ole me), have never been unemployed, and make over six figures, despite not knowing what I wanted at age 18 and still not knowing what I want in terms of a career. 

My mother gave me the best advice I've ever received on the topic, which is:  You don't have to know what you want to do forever, you just have to figure out what to do next.  I think it's perfectly fine to view college as a chance to explore careers.  That said, a certain level of maturity/practicality is required in order to approach college this way.  I don't think this girl is at that level of maturity right now, but nor do I think she has to have it all figured out before she steps foot on a college campus.  I do think the fastest way for her to figure it out is to be responsible for the choices she makes and to foot the vast majority of the bill.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MrsPete on April 27, 2014, 01:02:32 PM
Dear proponents of the military, I'm truly glad that you had good experiences, but you need to acknowledge that it is not the panacea of post-high-school employment and college funding. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it's just not a good fit for many people.
Did anyone say, "This is such a good choice that it should be mandatory for all young people?" 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: ch12 on April 28, 2014, 06:19:53 PM
You only go to college if you know exactly what you want to study and why. If you're 18 and don't have any idea what you want to do, then you're either an extraordinarily boring person or spent too much of your youth passively consuming entertainment in the form of TV and video games.

Disagree.  I am 43 years old and still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.  My family never had cable, a VCR, or video game devices when I was growing up, so I guess I must be extraordinarily boring, since those are the only two options presented.

The truth is, I am interested in SO MANY THINGS that I had a hell of a time choosing a major, because every time I did, I heard all these other doors to everything else I'd never be slamming shut.  I did pick a major eventually because I had to, graduated with no student debt (did get some help from parents) and went on to get a masters and a Ph.D (paid for 100% in cash by little ole me), have never been unemployed, and make over six figures, despite not knowing what I wanted at age 18 and still not knowing what I want in terms of a career. 

My mother gave me the best advice I've ever received on the topic, which is:  You don't have to know what you want to do forever, you just have to figure out what to do next. 

+1
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: galliver on April 28, 2014, 09:43:21 PM
Dear proponents of the military, I'm truly glad that you had good experiences, but you need to acknowledge that it is not the panacea of post-high-school employment and college funding. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it's just not a good fit for many people.
Did anyone say, "This is such a good choice that it should be mandatory for all young people?"

In some countries it already is. But you're right, no one did. I just felt like it's somewhat dishonest to bring up the military in conversations about college funding without some reference to the fact that the military is an organization created to inflict death and injury and control by force (I realize not every job directly relates to this, and I don't think that matters). It's a deeply ideological choice, and it was being portrayed as a financial/educational one and that bothered me. That's all.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: NewStachian on April 29, 2014, 04:51:25 AM
Dear proponents of the military, I'm truly glad that you had good experiences, but you need to acknowledge that it is not the panacea of post-high-school employment and college funding. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it's just not a good fit for many people.

I had a bad experience. Ideologically, psychologically, and in terms of risk tolerance, it was a terrible fit for me.

It was also the best decision I ever made.

It's certainly not for everyone. But if you haven't learned how to be a productive member of society yet, it's not a bad way to spend 5 years.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Worsted Skeins on April 29, 2014, 06:50:35 AM
I think that the moral of this story is that parents need to be having conversations with their teens long before senior year of high school.  If a parent cannot afford or has no intention of funding college, kids need to know this long before they begin applying to schools. It seems that part of the issue here is that of false hope.

My kiddo's college (life) savings accounts were opened shortly after birth.  Those little $5 presents in holiday cards from grandma and Aunt Lulu were saved from his toddler years on, supplemented with 4-H cash awards and employment earnings.  It is so much easier if one has a Mustachian child.

That said, the gap year idea is a good one if the girl is certain that she must attend a particular university.  She can work, save money and own this. 

Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: quilter on April 29, 2014, 07:47:31 AM
The military is not taking just anyone these days

http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/15/news/economy/military-recruiting/

Personally my dil's and I are vegan. I couldn't even kill a chicken, so I doubt I would be a good fit for the military. In the military you need to be aware that every single person could be called upon to end up with a finger on a trigger.  Or telling someone else to do so. I would be a danger to my fellow soldiers and would have to serve in another capacity if called upon. I doubt if today's military would jump at the chance to take someone like me.


Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Rebecca Stapler on April 29, 2014, 07:59:28 AM
As for the military option -- I personally wouldn't choose to go that route (reformed vegetarian here), but I wouldn't discourage my son to do it if he wanted and worked in a highly technical field. Not all college military programs funnel kids into combat.

I don't know the details, but I'm going to guess that college ROTC programs tend to push kids into technical positions, where they'll use their college degree. A friend of mine had his undergraduate, Master's, and PhD (in rocket science!) covered by the military because they wanted his brains more than his brawn. I will admit that I never really asked him what he did for a living because I didn't want to know. But I wouldn't disapprove of it for my son if that's what he wanted to do, because it seemed they would never send my friend into combat.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: zolotiyeruki on April 29, 2014, 10:42:06 AM
My parents did not pay for my college (except for transportation at the beginning/end of each term and a weekly phone call home).  I got through by:
1) choosing an inexpensive university
2) getting as many scholarships as possible
3) getting a job

My wife was the same.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: NewStachian on April 29, 2014, 11:53:47 AM
I think many people who are unfamiliar with the military don't understand why those of us who have gone through the process are promoting it. If you're the kind of person who wants to get air-dropped into another country guns a-blazin' that option is certainly available, but it's voluntary and most of us don't ever see combat. I certainly didn't want to have anything to do with shooting people.

On a submarine at sea, I would wake up and stand 1 of 2 watches. I was either running the nuclear reactor or driving the ship. The discipline and real-life skills we're talking about here involve all the training that goes into making that possible. Knowing that the lives of everybody on board quite literally depended on my ability to do my job pushed me, as it did those around me, to train to a high level of readiness. It's easy to slack off (I was a lazy bum in high school) when the grades only reflect your own performance. But, if you're standing officer of the deck and panic coming up to periscope depth when you see a ship, (you're the ONLY person looking through the scope) you can sink the ship. These things sound scary, but when it's your job and what you're trained for, it's more of a challenge than anything else, and you rise to the challenge and learn an incredible amount about yourself. Another thing this gives you is the pride and confidence in yourself that you can go on to do anything you want.

I hated being in the military, but I learned more about myself than at any other time in my life. And although I didn't like it, If you ask me what it was like to surface a submarine at the north pole or drive the boat on the surface as the sun rose with dolphins swimming across the bow, I'm going to put a smile on my face and tell you some awesome stories.

From a purely Mustachian perspective: 100% free college education, insanely low cost of living due to deploying frequently, tax free money, and a paycheck of about $150k at your 5 year point, lol.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: schoopsthecat on April 29, 2014, 12:09:55 PM
I'm a professor at a Big Ten university.  I have two thoughts.  The first (a bit off topic) is that I agree with the poster who talked about the value of a liberal arts education.  Some of the most successful people I know in the business world got liberal arts degrees.  One of my best friends is a partner at PWC and has degrees in English and music.  The fact that college is becoming more and more vocational training is really sad to me.

The more relevant point that I have to add is that the students I work with who take time off before school (either through military service, travel, working to save for college, etc.) seem to be much better students and more successful overall.  Perhaps it's just that young people in their early 20s are more serious about life and their studies than 18 and 19 year olds, but I see nothing wrong with taking a year off to work and save for school...a far better option than loans.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: galliver on April 29, 2014, 12:50:19 PM
I think many people who are unfamiliar with the military don't understand why those of us who have gone through the process are promoting it. If you're the kind of person who wants to get air-dropped into another country guns a-blazin' that option is certainly available, but it's voluntary and most of us don't ever see combat. I certainly didn't want to have anything to do with shooting people.

I realize that many, possibly most, jobs in the military are not directly combat-related. I also realize that you could trace most civilian jobs back to supporting the military (food industry, electronics industry, medical professions, etc). Not to mention we all pay taxes. Thirdly, I realize that for the forseeable future this is a necessary evil; Hitlers and Atillas and Napoleons do come along every so often. But, I find that whether you design, build, maintain or fire a missile, you're still partially responsible for its victims. The military doesn't source equipment and train people to use it for their personal development. They do it in case combat (on land, sea, or air) becomes necessary. And to the best of my knowledge, when that happens, you go where they send you. Even if you don't agree.

Everyone has an ideological comfort zone; some might be willing to build a missile but not fire it. Others might not be willing to work on anything that *could* conceivably be applied to missiles, even if there are other applications. And of course, some are willing to fire it when told to do so, and some are willing to give that order. I think everyone needs to figure out where they fit in if/when considering the military as an option. [btw, used missiles as an example because I'm an Aerospace Engineer.]
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Nords on April 29, 2014, 01:08:31 PM
I just felt like it's somewhat dishonest to bring up the military in conversations about college funding without some reference to the fact that the military is an organization created to inflict death and injury and control by force (I realize not every job directly relates to this, and I don't think that matters). It's a deeply ideological choice, and it was being portrayed as a financial/educational one and that bothered me. That's all.
Whew, thank goodness that's not an issue with corporate scholarships or professional-association scholarships or alumni scholarships.

Or maybe the only difference is that those other groups don't have legislative & executive charters to inflict death and injury and forceful control.  They just have to hope that they don't get caught breaking the law.  Or American law, anyway.  At least not in America.

Is there an ideological choice that will deliver financial & educational support to someone whose only other option may appear to be student loans?  Or does the military come up so often because the military recruiters perhaps do a better job of marketing their benefits? 

Maybe the Peace Corps could really raise their game if they paid for more mechanical engineering and agricultural tech degrees.

By the way, when a recruit joins the military and reports for initial training it's made very clear to them that their job is to break things and kill people.  No dishonesty involved-- it wastes too much training time and costs too much taxpayer money.  We veterans might not have known precisely what we were getting into, but we all knew that it was better than the status quo ante.

As for the military option -- I personally wouldn't choose to go that route (reformed vegetarian here), but I wouldn't discourage my son to do it if he wanted and worked in a highly technical field. Not all college military programs funnel kids into combat.

I don't know the details, but I'm going to guess that college ROTC programs tend to push kids into technical positions, where they'll use their college degree. A friend of mine had his undergraduate, Master's, and PhD (in rocket science!) covered by the military because they wanted his brains more than his brawn.
That's a huge debate in the military, let alone society.  After centuries of trying to quantify what makes a leader, it's very difficult to pick them out of a crowd of high-school or college graduates.  We just fling a bunch of volunteers into the jobs with some basic training and hope that Darwinism helps produce a solution.  I guess it's the ultimate in survivor bias.

The military can hire all the contractor rocket scientists they need (and almost as many as they want) but it's really hard to hire leaders.  You can't take the teens with the highest GPAs and SATs and turn them into leaders.  Ironically there are many officers who have GEDs and SATs in the low four digits and went to community colleges for liberal arts degrees and turned out to be fantastic leaders.  It's a cliché, but leaders are either born that way or discovered through combat. 

Most of the ROTC scholarships are awarded in the "Tier 1" and "Tier 2" levels for engineering & science.  The logic is that the combat arms jobs (the fightin' parts) tend to use highly technical tools.  The officers won't need to be able to operate those tools blindfolded, but they'd better understand their strengths & weaknesses in helping with decisions.  Maybe this logic is correct, but it still leaves a lot of potential standing on the sidelines.

A minority of the scholarships are awarded to "everyone else", mostly language programs and business programs but also history and economics and even philosophy.  Those people turn out to have critical thinking skills that will pay off for the military even if they haven't studied multivariable calculus.  Their critical-thinking skills are borne out through the training pipeline-- if they survive it then they have the skills.  If they don't then they didn't.

In the 1980s, Admiral Rickover succeeded in bullying the Naval Academy to set a quota on their degrees.  80% had to be a technical degree, and 20% could be "non-technical"-- yet even the history and English and econ majors had to study electricity, electronics, thermodynamics, and weapons systems.  Now that Rickover is no longer terrorizing the Navy, USNA has come to its senses and backed off the quota system.  However it's still very difficult to get in without a high all-around multiple. 

After decades of data analysis, the single most successful indicator of success at a service academy is:  Eagle Scout or the Gold Award.  Or at least it is for those graduates who actually were in a scouting program.

As for the brawn... that went out in the 1700s when firearms became operational.  Even the SEALs and the Special Forces have qualifying tests that are fairly achievable for athletic young adults.  (Of both genders, although admittedly pullups are both a genetic and a learned skill.)  All of the special forces promise to develop more muscle and stamina, and the ones who do better will have a metabolism that can rapidly convert food to energy while avoiding repetitive stress injuries.  But what the special forces are really seeking is competitive persistence.  They want the scrappy little underdog who just can't stop competing at everything (even the stupid things) and who won't give up until he (or she) literally loses consciousness.  With that, everything else is training.  Without that, everything else is a waste of time.

Submariners spend a lot of operational time with SEALs.  The rest of the Navy thinks that submariners are intense, but the submariners know what intense really looks like-- and the SEALs scare the heck out of us.  Nice guys and great leaders, but... yikes.

From a purely Mustachian perspective: 100% free college education, insanely low cost of living due to deploying frequently, tax free money, and a paycheck of about $150k at your 5 year point, lol.
With great coffee and free movies, too!


Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: quilter on April 29, 2014, 01:25:53 PM
Thanks for the military clarifications.  And thank you for your service.

Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: galliver on April 29, 2014, 01:52:17 PM
I just felt like it's somewhat dishonest to bring up the military in conversations about college funding without some reference to the fact that the military is an organization created to inflict death and injury and control by force (I realize not every job directly relates to this, and I don't think that matters). It's a deeply ideological choice, and it was being portrayed as a financial/educational one and that bothered me. That's all.
Whew, thank goodness that's not an issue with corporate scholarships or professional-association scholarships or alumni scholarships.

Or maybe the only difference is that those other groups don't have legislative & executive charters to inflict death and injury and forceful control.  They just have to hope that they don't get caught breaking the law.  Or American law, anyway.  At least not in America.

Yeah, that alumni association is really just a thinly veiled mafia after all... ;) I say this with good humor.  You make a good point that we should consider the ideological implications of the other organizations as well. Frankly, I'm not too worried about the machinations of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers. And pretty sure I agree with their mission "to serve diverse global communities by advancing, disseminating and applying engineering knowledge for improving the quality of life; and communicating the excitement of engineering." And I could get behind their ethical standards. That said, I would pause before taking money/offering services to Monsanto (not that that's my field).

The military is full of brave and hardworking and worthy people, and I'm sure you were one of them. But when it comes time to make the individual choice, violence is a very sensitive subject for many and the military is fundamentally based on violence (you did agree on that count). So...I still think it's very different from corporate/professional/alumni funding.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Nords on April 29, 2014, 08:49:54 PM
The military is full of brave and hardworking and worthy people, and I'm sure you were one of them. But when it comes time to make the individual choice, violence is a very sensitive subject for many and the military is fundamentally based on violence (you did agree on that count). So...I still think it's very different from corporate/professional/alumni funding.
There's no clear line like "military bad, civilian good".  However the military offers a free chance to figure out if that's what you want to do with your time, and it's given meaning & purpose to many young adults who see no other way out of their perceived dead-end life.  It would behoove civilian organizations to consider the same sort of recruiting model.

Many of my daughter's classmates in civil engineering and environmental engineering are getting jobs in the oil & gas industry.  Exxon and BP and Chevron are hiring, and the money is very good.  One of the students' college profs is a nationally-recognized lawyer in environmental litigation.  I've read his textbook, and it's led us to some interesting discussions.

In 18 days my daughter graduates and gets her NROTC commission, and she's asked my spouse and me to pin on her ensign's shoulder boards.  She's going to be a "global force for good" stationed on a Navy guided-missile destroyer in Rota, Spain.  We've had the "breaking things & killing people" discussion many times, and she's also spent quality time with her cousin the Army Ranger-- who has considerable hands-on experience in that occupational specialty.  I guess the good news is that during the 1980s I was ready to launch ICBMs to destroy much of the world, and now she's going to learn how to shoot them down.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: galliver on April 29, 2014, 10:50:13 PM
during the 1980s I was ready to launch ICBMs to destroy much of the world
And I would have been on the receiving end of it. As a little baby. Along with millions of others. Hope you were ok with that.

I've said all I can, already, really.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Erin on April 30, 2014, 10:18:48 AM
Whatever you do, DO NOT cosign any student loans for your children. They are not dischargeable in a bankruptcy, and if your kids stop paying them you are on the hook for the debt.

My advice is if she isn't a good student (and actually this is my advice even if she was unless she is a good enough student to get scholarships and then she can do what she wants), is she is living at home and going to community college for 2 years. Take it from someone who idiotically went to a 4 year school when they were 17, had no idea what they were doing, dicked off and got mediocre grades and a useless degree (but was lucky enough that their parents paid for it all), she does not need to waste the $$ until she knows exactly what she is doing.

Good luck!
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Nords on April 30, 2014, 11:49:16 PM
during the 1980s I was ready to launch ICBMs to destroy much of the world
And I would have been on the receiving end of it. As a little baby. Along with millions of others. Hope you were ok with that.

I've said all I can, already, really.
We've devoted our military careers to defending your rights to say all you want...
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Nigel on May 01, 2014, 07:41:21 AM
I've been a college professor for about 15 years (small 4-year liberal arts college) and I definitely concur with the people expressing concern about whether your daughter is ready to start college right now, especially given the financial strain it will put on the family.  This is in no way a put-down of your daughter - she's still just a kid, after all, and acting the way many kids (myself included at that age!) act.  I see way too many people in college who shouldn't be there yet, it becomes an extended adolescence for many, and at best an exercise in hoop-jumping and credentialing rather than an education.  (Then again, some are totally ready for it - it varies).

Here's what I wish I had done at that age:

Take at least a year off and work - learn what it means to pay the bills and live within her means.

A lot of people don't know this, but she can get a couple years of college done almost for free, through CLEP testing.  A CLEP exam costs about $70, and if she passes it counts as a completed 4-credit course at many colleges.  There are endless resources online or in books (used or library!) to learn the material and prepare for the exam.  How about asking her to demonstrate a little academic seriousness by studying for and passing a couple of CLEP exams before going into debt to pay tuition?

She can get some of the college social experience without paying tuition - just move to a college town, room with some students, work in a coffee shop, go to campus events, even sit in on some classes if possible.  Maybe she could work just enough to pay her bills while studying for a couple CLEP exams. 

For some summer fun and a little money, she could try working at a national park or as a summer camp counselor.

If she does these things for a year or two, I expect she will be much more focused and ready to make a mature decision about college.

For your younger kids, look into the possibility of taking college classes (for free) in their junior and senior year of high school - many states allow this, and you get both high school and college credit for the classes - plus a great perspective on what college is like.  Also helps avoid 'senioritis'. 

Good luck!
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: frompa on May 01, 2014, 11:53:24 AM
Putting kids through college is a lot like other "consumer" issues -- you have to make your own decisions based on your own comfort level, and not go with what "they" suggest.  I remember going to buy a car, and they said we qualified for a $30k loan; and a house, and they said we were approved for $300,000.  I thought, ARE YOU CRAZY? and said no to both. Same with college - they told us we were approved to borrow about a hundred thousand for my daughter's education.  !!?  When we said, we don't borrow money, "they" somehow found money.

 Just because someone else says you can, doesn't by any means mean you should. Sure, you can borrow a pile of money, but at this point in your life, why ever would you? If college is important enough to your child, she'll find a way to make it happen.  In my own family, my folks didn't have the $ to put even one of us through school - just the way it was - and we (all 6 of us) each managed to work our way through.  I think as a result we appreciated and focused our educations.   Good luck on this -- and don't give in to being guilted into this debt. It won't hurt your daughter one bit, and will probably help her a lot,  to have to make her own way.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: b4u2 on December 23, 2014, 11:56:24 AM
Well the first semester is over. So far school wise she is doing ok. Decent grades in all her classes, mostly art classes. She has decided that the diner at the college is not giving her enough hours so she has started looking for other places to work to earn some money. She has not been wasteful so far. She wasn't putting much effort into this until the last few weeks so I am hoping she continues to strive for something better.

She is finally interested in taking classes at the junior college here over the summer. She has to figure out a way to pay for that on her own. She sank that ship when she wouldn't listen in the first place. We will not be cosigning any other loans for her.

There still seems to be some fantasy about how some of her "goals" will be paid for. I just shake my head.

I served 8 years in the Army Reserves. Won't say that I loved it but it taught me a lot and the little bit I got for the GI Bill was nice. Wish I had done 4 years Regular Army instead to get the better benefits.

I saw someone knock my journal earlier. Yeah I admit I am not perfect. I am late to the game and there was no one to teach me until I found this forum by accident. Since then I have really turned things around and striving to do what I am. Yes I like the "toys" that I have because of the struggle it took to get them. I appreciate them even more now. I am extremely close to paying one off. I accept the fact that it will put me "behind" but guess what...I was behind anyway. So my lesson is in the past and my new goal is to not make the same mistakes.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Zamboni on December 23, 2014, 12:40:52 PM
Thank you for the update, OP.

Did she end up at the school that was originally mentioned for $16K?  At Community College?  Some other school?  I'm late to the party but read most of the thread.

Wishing you and your family the best.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: KeeKat on December 24, 2014, 03:08:49 PM
Community college. Can we stop talking about CC like it's the loser cousin to universities, by the way? Mustachians ought to know better than anyone that paying more doesn't equal higher quality.

I did my first two years at a cc to save money. Did my second two years at in-state rates, graduated at the tippy top of my class.

The smart kids go to schools they can afford, end of story.

This word for word! I did exactly the same thing - lived at home, went to CC, got a job tutoring at CC and then went on to University and graduated at the top.

All the students who may have looked down on me for going to CC are still DEEP in student loans while mine were paid off within the first two years of graduating (parents were not financial able to contribute to my education). And, many of my CC classes were more difficult than my University gen eds to boot!
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: b4u2 on January 05, 2015, 06:26:19 AM
She went to the college of her choice. $16k a year. She/we managed to cover the first year. Most of it all in loans. I cosigned on a $7k loan for the first year. After this it is up to her on how to pay for the rest. The agreement is if she pays off that $7k before the next school year I will cosign on another loan for her if needed. If the loan is not paid in full I will not sign. I felt that $7k was/should be easy enough for her to pay off in a year. So far she is behind so hopefully she can make up ground over the summer. She did pick up additional hours at her job at the local grocery store (Hy-Vee).
They have a very nice deal for high school and college kids. Even though she basically quit and went to college they put her status as "on leave". So when she comes back for holidays and summer she can go back and work for them. She has to give them a few weeks notice in case they need to train her on something. She grabbed up hours for people that wanted time off over Christmas and New years. She is also looking into picking up a job of campus but within walking distance of her dorm.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: civil on January 05, 2015, 08:46:17 AM
The military will pay for schooling. and you may get a chance to see the world. if the military is an option for the other children see if they have a JROTC at their high schools.  Many students come to Virginia Tech as cadets and have all 4 years of their college education paid for and than you get have a guaranteed job for at least 5 years out of school.

YMMV. The pay is great, but it's not so easy to get in. I have tried to join the military 6 times (at ages 18, 21, 23), twice each with 3 different branches, as my DC-area federal job requiring a master's degree pays less than E-4 here. (Officers are pretty much robbing the bank.) Each time I tried to get in, MEPS said they could waive one medical thing, but not a different one... and the waiver options changed every time.

If your kids are healthy, then absolutely, encourage them to consider the military! But if your kids are not pictures of good health, do not tell them "there's always the military..." That isn't true anymore. In my experience, the military is open to those who have won the genetic lottery and/or have never been to a doctor.

That said, if you want to leave the military option open for your children, be very careful about what goes on their medical records. Any hint of asthma had better disappear before their 13th birthday (this one got me - even though I run a 12:30 2-mile with no meds). A friend of mine was disqualified in October for eczema. A relative was disqualified last week for having had Lyme disease. Another in November because they had been prescribed an Epi-pen just in case (because a life-threatening food allergy runs in the family, though she has not developed it). With the military drawing down, it's becoming much more difficult to get in. Go with your kid to talk to a recruiter before telling them it's an option.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Nords on January 11, 2015, 05:14:23 PM
That said, if you want to leave the military option open for your children, be very careful about what goes on their medical records. Any hint of asthma had better disappear before their 13th birthday (this one got me - even though I run a 12:30 2-mile with no meds). A friend of mine was disqualified in October for eczema. A relative was disqualified last week for having had Lyme disease. Another in November because they had been prescribed an Epi-pen just in case (because a life-threatening food allergy runs in the family, though she has not developed it). With the military drawing down, it's becoming much more difficult to get in. Go with your kid to talk to a recruiter before telling them it's an option.
You're absolutely right about respiratory or auto-immune concerns.  The military has learned (the hard way) not to take chances with these issues.  It's not fair to the servicemember (especially in austere and stressful environments) and it's not fair to the people they're serving with.

If there's anything worse than being turned down by the military, it's having to deal with those conditions when they're made worse by your environment.  About 15 years ago the submarine force almost lost an officer to an asthma attack out in the middle of nowhere during a mission of great importance to national security, and it happened while he was the Officer of the Deck on the periscope in the middle of a rather stressful watch.  During the subsequent medical investigation, the doctors realized that the entry physical had missed signs of asthma that returned with a vengeance after a few years of submarine sea duty.

As for accompanying your teen to the recruiter's office... I'd be interested in hearing how a teen would feel about that.  I know what my teen would have told me.

Well our first kid is going to college this fall. Basically my wife and I just started on this FI path and are still paying our debts. We have no money for college. She only got student loan for $5500. Then apparently the parents (US) can borrow 13k for the other part. The cost of the college is about 16k a year including housing, food, books, and misc fees.

My wife and I have 5 kids total. We cannot afford to pay for each kid to go to school. I need help with understanding what to do. She has applied for grants and scholarships and waiting to hear back on those. She isn't the greatest student so not holding my breath.

What are some resources I can read up on?
Having said that about the military, I'd encourage any teen who's even the least bit curious about the armed forces to join a college ROTC unit.  The first year is completely free of obligation, and the scholarship pays for tuition (plus most of the textbooks and a small monthly stipend).  The good ROTC units will offer a supportive environment that helps freshmen keep from feeling lost or ignored.  They'll even get help figuring out which courses to register for and how to put together a good class schedule.   There's also the structure of morning workouts, afternoon study groups, and weekend activities like volunteering in the community or at military events.  The summer training after freshman year will give them a tour of their military options, and then at the start of sophomore year they can either stick with the scholarship (for a service obligation) or quit (and keep most of their uniforms). 

I think ROTC is a much better deal than a service academy, and my daughter does too.  She's lovin' life right now as a Navy surface warfare officer, and I'm sure she's looking forward to nuclear power training.

http://the-military-guide.com/2013/03/18/joining-the-military-during-a-drawdown/
http://the-military-guide.com/2011/06/08/early-retirement-and-the-kids-college-fund/
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: MayDay on January 11, 2015, 05:50:37 PM
Nords, my cousin had a different experience 2 years ago in ROTC.  He initially joined because he was interested in possibly joining the military, but he wasn't totally sure.  He figured he would try it for a year and see, plus get a free year of college, so win-win.  He enjoyed it at first, but within the first semester the officers started pushing HARD for all the kids to sign immediately.  He quite towards the end of the first semester because the pressure was ruining what was otherwise a good experience for him.

Maybe they don't care- maybe they figure if you don't love it and want it enough to sign right away, then they don't want you.  But I think if that's the case, then 1., don't offer the first year commitment-free, and 2., you are going to miss some good kids who aren't from military families, or for whatever other reason want to scope things out before committing. 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: lakemom on January 11, 2015, 06:21:44 PM
ROTC scholarships are not a given and with budget cuts are getting harder to acquire.  Our sophomore has yet to get a scholarship (at his uni no one does freshman year) and is anxiously awaiting news on whether he will get a summer camp slot.  He's always wanted to be in the AF and chose ROTC over the enlisted to officer route his older brother took/is taking.  IF you have a student interested in ROTC have them meet with campus reps/recruiters at least a couple of times before enrollment.  The recruiter was very up front with our son about likelihood of scholarship.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: Unique User on January 12, 2015, 08:16:55 AM
She went to the college of her choice. $16k a year. She/we managed to cover the first year. Most of it all in loans. I cosigned on a $7k loan for the first year. After this it is up to her on how to pay for the rest. The agreement is if she pays off that $7k before the next school year I will cosign on another loan for her if needed. If the loan is not paid in full I will not sign. I felt that $7k was/should be easy enough for her to pay off in a year. So far she is behind so hopefully she can make up ground over the summer. She did pick up additional hours at her job at the local grocery store (Hy-Vee).
They have a very nice deal for high school and college kids. Even though she basically quit and went to college they put her status as "on leave". So when she comes back for holidays and summer she can go back and work for them. She has to give them a few weeks notice in case they need to train her on something. She grabbed up hours for people that wanted time off over Christmas and New years. She is also looking into picking up a job of campus but within walking distance of her dorm.

If she has any inclination at all, encourage her toward food service for summer/school jobs.  I earned much more waiting tables and working catering gigs, than working retail.  I also was signed up as a banquet server in college, it was sporadic, but still good money. 
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: ysette9 on January 12, 2015, 09:03:03 AM
A lot has been said about junior college/community college and I just want to pile on that band wagon. My sister and I went to a fantastic junior college while living at home and working and it was the best thing either of us could have done. We both took classes while still in high school, my sister went there after dropping out of HS and taking the GED. She went through 3 or 4 majors over 4 years at the JC before settling on what she wanted to do. We both got JC scholarships that paid for everything so we could take our time figuring things out.

My point: It is not 2nd best to go to junior college and often times it can be the best choice. My sister and I both transferred to campuses in the University of California system (great schools). I went to UC Berkeley and then did a master's at Stanford and the quality of education I got at my JC was on par with both of those institutions.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: NICE! on January 12, 2015, 10:04:45 AM
galliver - I'm in the military, I hate war, I think we go to war too much, and I always pray for peace. I think that if you had more exposure to military members you'd find more of this opinion than you'd expect. We're not all uneducated/xenophobic/patriotic/trigger happy idiots. I also know that the military is absolutely the wrong choice for a ton of people, including many people currently on active duty...I've helped show the door to some of them. All we're doing is proposing it as an option for someone who quite clearly needs structure and purpose. Like it or not, those are two of the strongest points of military service.

To Nords' point, I too was told, quite uncomfortably and regularly, that my job was to break things and kill people. It always made me uneasy and still does. My ideological comfort zone is not as an infantry officer - I learned that when one of my PROFESSORS went into a speech early my freshman year about how we "blow shit up and kill other humans." Now I realize what he was doing, but at that time it seemed extremely insensitive to me. Other people ate it up, but like you said, that was part of understanding where someone stands on careers within the military.

Like VarsityFinance, I too attended a military academy (Air Force). As much as I wish I would've gone somewhere and partied to up the social skills and meet more women, I made the right decision. I learned a ton there, even though I didn't realize it until about 5 years later. Would I do it again? Hell no, but that's because I'm stubborn and love the idea of Party U and being an 18 year old again chasing after 18 year old women. I'm happy I can't hop in a time machine.

I'm not saying this is an option for your child since you said her grades are middling. However, enlisting is an option if she'll consider it. The GI Bill is a pretty incredible benefit that she'd earn in 3 years. If she wants to party she can join the Air Force and request an assignment to Korea. She can pretty much stay there as long as she wants and she'll definitely get her partying fix in there. Just make sure she knows all the facts about contraceptives and STDs/STIs.

If not, I echo the ideas of CC, vocational school, gap year, or no college at all. I would also say Peace Corps but they require a degree if I recall correctly. Alternatively, she could look into some sort of humanitarian work abroad. I'm guessing that will not appeal to her based upon the previous comments.
Title: Re: First kid going to college. Need help!
Post by: b4u2 on January 12, 2015, 10:46:24 AM
She did apply at a nearby bar/restaurant and heard some feedback. She just went back to college yesterday so she will check with them about actually having a job or not.

She is a tornado on two legs at home so I am very glad college started back up so she can go there for a while lol.
 
She has been writing essays for scholarships so hopefully something pans out for her.

She also picked up extra hours while she was at home and that money will go towards her loan.