Author Topic: first date and the bill...  (Read 58370 times)

CommonCents

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #100 on: April 28, 2014, 09:42:35 AM »

I strongly disagree.  In order to reach a human rights tribunal there here have to be enough "bad facts" that an arbitrator is willing to accept a complaint.  A mere misunderstanding does not get you there.   

This type of complaint usually arises in the workplace.  The majority of accepted complaints have some degree of merit but a convincing liar can get far with the system because it is simply he said she said and the woman has the weight of social reaction/public opinion going in her favour. 

Why does a woman do this?  She is aware that the process will not cost her anything, the burden of proof is low and the change of financial gain is high because a store and individual would want to settle rather than go through a public process that is bad for business.
There are a small percentage of female employees, particularly those who work in unskilled jobs and low paying jobs, who I have observed to be willing to work the system.  It is a practice just like the practice of staged car accidents for insurance benefits, that exists in certain subgroups who rely on the stigma attaching to "harassment" and the belief that man are harassers to get money.

In addition to convincing liars, there are also women with poor mental health, perhaps because of past trauma, who see harassment where, in my opinion, none exists. 

None of this means that harassment does not exist in the workplace or elsewhere, or that it is only men who are accused of it.

Can't find the orig post, was it deleted?  But I strongly dispute the bold above.  My friend was at a law firm event and a client lifted her dress and tried to pull it over her head.  She debated heavily making a complaint, for the negative career implications.  She eventually did, but nothing happened to the client (has lots of money), she took a career hit, and even had to take time out of the work day for numerous meetings with a therapist person to demonstrate she was "ok".  As a biglaw lawyer, this cut into billable hours and wasn't what she wanted at all.  The process DOES cost people, even when making a legitimate complaint, people don't always take you seriously, they don't always do something even when taking you seriously, and she got no financial gain and in fact, may have in the long run lost money.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:52:20 AM by CommonCents »

iwasjustwondering

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #101 on: April 28, 2014, 09:49:06 AM »
Quote
There are some women who feel strongly enough about their independence that they would be offended to be paid for on a first date.  How can I know which are those?  Well, they are likely to suggest each paying our own way.  So me, trying to be respectful of the other person's desires, go along with what they say they want, instead of insisting on doing things my way.  That, to me, is basic politeness.

This is an excellent place to come from. And it can work very well to have two people who mutually prefer to split the cost. I don't think we should judge those who conform to the norm of the man paying, however reaching a point where assumptions about who pays (and whether the man therefore generally has more power than the woman, by taking on some sort of 'provider' role) are no longer an issue. Sometimes it's easier to be utopian about the gender relation stuff in principle than it is in practice, though. I've asked men out before, and I try to be enlightened about gender roles, but wanting to protect myself does give me pause about acting on all of the abstract opinions I have about how things 'should' work, for fear of how it actually works in practice.

It's complicated and everyone has to find the balance that's right for them.


This comment refers to the first date or two:    It's sad that people have lost the ability to be gracious.   Not just in offering to pay but in politely allowing the host to pay.
When one is asked on a date, in essence, they are "hosting".    I don't really see how any man or woman takes on a risk of their independence being compromised because they politely accepted having their dinner companion  pay for the meal.   A kind and genuine word of appreciation might go a lot further in making a connection with someone.

Totally agree.  Anyone who truly gives a shit about who pays on a first date is a weirdo, and someone I would avoid.  The first date should be casual, fast, and inexpensive.  Discussions about who should pay should be the same.  If a guy invites a woman out for an expensive dinner as some sort of grim test of her character, to see if she'll offer to pay, that's weird.  Interactions, especially when it comes to a first date, should be easy and fun.  I make plenty of money.  I don't need some dude to buy me a glass of wine.  Whatever.  It costs $7.  If it's that big a deal, don't date at all.  The whole point of this site, IMO, is that you take care of your finances to the point where you can enjoy human relationships without having them be fraught with money worries.  Shrug.

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #102 on: April 28, 2014, 10:01:04 AM »
I do agree that the socially accepted view of men as more likely to participate in sexual assault unfairly stigmatizes some men and makes them vulnerable to a deliberately deceptive female.  I also agree very strongly that men are more likely to be at risk from false accusations of sexual harassment.  That is totally unfair and I think the rules of proof need to be a bit more stringent than they are currently.[/b]

I suspect its very rarely a deliberately deceptive female. I think its born of a misunderstanding, when a guy has an idea that he is supposed to take charge and she expects a standard of mutual explicit consent.  That situation could easily be avoided if everyone had a standard of mutual explicit consent, been then you lose that sexy power dynamic of a strong assertive man and a passive receptive woman.  Similarly, one persons courtship is another person's harassment


I strongly disagree.  In order to reach a human rights tribunal there here have to be enough "bad facts" that an arbitrator is willing to accept a complaint.  A mere misunderstanding does not get you there.   

This type of complaint usually arises in the workplace.  The majority of accepted complaints have some degree of merit but a convincing liar can get far with the system because it is simply he said she said and the woman has the weight of social reaction/public opinion going in her favour. 

Why does a woman do this?  She is aware that the process will not cost her anything, the burden of proof is low and the change of financial gain is high because a store and individual would want to settle rather than go through a public process that is bad for business.
There are a small percentage of female employees, particularly those who work in unskilled jobs and low paying jobs, who I have observed to be willing to work the system.  It is a practice just like the practice of staged car accidents for insurance benefits, that exists in certain subgroups who rely on the stigma attaching to "harassment" and the belief that man are harassers to get money.

In addition to convincing liars, there are also women with poor mental health, perhaps because of past trauma, who see harassment where, in my opinion, none exists. 

None of this means that harassment does not exist in the workplace or elsewhere, or that it is only men who are accused of it.

Can't find the orig post, was it deleted?  But I strongly dispute the bold above.  My friend was at a law firm event and a client lifted her dress and tried to pull it over her head.  She debated heavily making a complaint, for the negative career implications.  She eventually did, but nothing happened to the client (has lots of money), she took a career hit, and even had to take time out of the work day for numerous meetings with a therapist person to demonstrate she was "ok".  As a biglaw lawyer, this cut into billable hours and wasn't what she wanted at all.  The process DOES cost people, even when making a legitimate complaint, people don't always take you seriously, they don't always do something even when taking you seriously, and she got no financial gain and in fact, may have in the long run lost money.


The original post was not deleted.

Yes, I expect different jurisdictions have different processes and it depends on the nature of the complaint. 

Our human rights tribunal is public and free for the complainant who most likely will quit upon making a false complaint to claim further damages.  This does not mean there are not legitimate complaints.  My point was that the system here treats men unfairly under certain circumstances because a convincing liar can play off the entrenched belief that men are likely to harass women.

As for your friend's complaint, well, here that would have been assault which is a criminal offence and that particular scenario does not fit into the example of a deliberately false complaint which is relevant to the issue of unfairness to men and which is now kind of off topic.

sunnyca

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #103 on: April 28, 2014, 11:42:22 AM »

I strongly disagree.  In order to reach a human rights tribunal there here have to be enough "bad facts" that an arbitrator is willing to accept a complaint.  A mere misunderstanding does not get you there.   

This type of complaint usually arises in the workplace.  The majority of accepted complaints have some degree of merit but a convincing liar can get far with the system because it is simply he said she said and the woman has the weight of social reaction/public opinion going in her favour. 

Why does a woman do this?  She is aware that the process will not cost her anything, the burden of proof is low and the change of financial gain is high because a store and individual would want to settle rather than go through a public process that is bad for business.
There are a small percentage of female employees, particularly those who work in unskilled jobs and low paying jobs, who I have observed to be willing to work the system.  It is a practice just like the practice of staged car accidents for insurance benefits, that exists in certain subgroups who rely on the stigma attaching to "harassment" and the belief that man are harassers to get money.

In addition to convincing liars, there are also women with poor mental health, perhaps because of past trauma, who see harassment where, in my opinion, none exists. 

None of this means that harassment does not exist in the workplace or elsewhere, or that it is only men who are accused of it.

Can't find the orig post, was it deleted?  But I strongly dispute the bold above.  My friend was at a law firm event and a client lifted her dress and tried to pull it over her head.  She debated heavily making a complaint, for the negative career implications.  She eventually did, but nothing happened to the client (has lots of money), she took a career hit, and even had to take time out of the work day for numerous meetings with a therapist person to demonstrate she was "ok".  As a biglaw lawyer, this cut into billable hours and wasn't what she wanted at all.  The process DOES cost people, even when making a legitimate complaint, people don't always take you seriously, they don't always do something even when taking you seriously, and she got no financial gain and in fact, may have in the long run lost money.

Um.  I never wrote this.  I'm not sure why it's quoting me.

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #104 on: April 28, 2014, 12:04:53 PM »
(This is a situation where you think you are going somewhere as friends, but discover they think and are trying to make it into a date.)  Here insisting to pay is critical, to show you don't see it as a date.
Its not critical.  You could just, you know, tell them "Just so you know, I don't see this as a date, and I don't want to".


Men are still expected to be manly, few people (of either gender) really respect a stay-at-home dad, men are always supposed to be assertive (if not dominant), most especially when it comes to romance.  Its not just paying for the date, its being the one to hold the door, being the one to bring flowers or offer a massage or plan the perfect evening, and of course being the one to both ask for the initial date and make the first moves toward physical intimacy.
 

Ooooh, a massage.  Men do this?  I might consider divorcing my husband for someone who gives regular massages, male or female.
[/quote]
lol.  I do.  I didn't think it was that rare.
Usually not on a first date.  Maybe on a second or third, if they go well.

Quote
Really, you are bothered by who holds open doors?  It’s a fading tradition in any event, and women will hold open for the person behind them even if they don’t stand to the side to let the person through first (but men don’t do this so much anymore either).
I'm bothered if a woman expects it, every time.  If she holds it when she gets there first, and expects the same, I can appreciate courtesy.  I try to stand to the side and let the person behind me through, often even if its just a random stranger (but I never expect it of anyone)

Quote
In the context of a committed relationship, I have to say I’ve largely planned most dates.  I think it tends to be the asker (predominately men) who plan dates while dating, but the female who tends to plan dates in committed relationships.
Fair enough

Quote
Equally I could point out that the vast majority of women I know are the ones to cook for their husbands.
aarrggggg ok ok ok, I admit it!  This includes me.  My wife did most of the cooking.  And then my girlfriend did.  But its not like I insisted or expected it.  I just don't cook.  When I live alone, I eat cereal and sandwiches and precooked meals.  I just happen to have lived with women who like to cook.  So they cook for me too.  And I fix stuff that breaks and do oil changes for us both - not because of social expectation, but just because I'm good at and enjoy that kind of stuff.

Its a slippery slope from expecting the guy to make the first move to trying to subtle encourage him to do so when he doesn't on his own to playing hard to get to saying no when you really mean yes.  And if that is a guys experience with women, he learns that no doesn't always mean no, because for some women it doesn't, because they want to stay in the submissive role.  In one survey more than half of sexually active college women admitted to saying no when they really wanted to proceed, sometimes explicitly with the explanation that they wanted the guy to be more aggressive.  Its a pretty extreme version of waiting for him to make the first move, but it isn't qualitatively different, its just further down the continuum.  And I should think its clear how that encourages sexual assault.

Let’s nip this one in the bud, shall we?  No means no.  If this means educating some women (not just men) that no means no and they should only use it when they mean no, so be it.

Well personally I couldn't agree with you more.  And I think we DO need to educate women on that, among other things.  All the focus has been on changing the behavior and attitudes of men, as though they live in a vacuum. 
My point is, in the actual world we live in today, for as much as 60% (more than half!) of women, no DOESN'T always mean no, and if thats the message a young man gets over and over from his own sex partners, that is going to outweigh the message he gets from public service announcements.
Perhaps people shouldn't extrapolate from their experience with one person to interactions with another, but we do, its human nature to find patterns and assume the future will reflect the past.

EDIT: just to be clear - I'm not suggesting that makes assault any more ok.  I'm just saying it makes it more understandable.
And I see a continuum of behaviors consisting of being deliberately dishonest in order to conform to a perceived gender role, with fake offering to pay a bill at one end and fake declining sex at the other.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 12:14:08 PM by Bakari »

Gin1984

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #105 on: April 28, 2014, 12:12:08 PM »
(This is a situation where you think you are going somewhere as friends, but discover they think and are trying to make it into a date.)  Here insisting to pay is critical, to show you don't see it as a date.
Its not critical.  You could just, you know, tell them "Just so you know, I don't see this as a date, and I don't want to".


Men are still expected to be manly, few people (of either gender) really respect a stay-at-home dad, men are always supposed to be assertive (if not dominant), most especially when it comes to romance.  Its not just paying for the date, its being the one to hold the door, being the one to bring flowers or offer a massage or plan the perfect evening, and of course being the one to both ask for the initial date and make the first moves toward physical intimacy.
 

Ooooh, a massage.  Men do this?  I might consider divorcing my husband for someone who gives regular massages, male or female.
lol.  I do.  I didn't think it was that rare.
Usually not on a first date.  Maybe on a second or third, if they go well.

Quote
Really, you are bothered by who holds open doors?  It’s a fading tradition in any event, and women will hold open for the person behind them even if they don’t stand to the side to let the person through first (but men don’t do this so much anymore either).
I'm bothered if a woman expects it, every time.  If she holds it when she gets there first, and expects the same, I can appreciate courtesy.  I try to stand to the side and let the person behind me through, often even if its just a random stranger (but I never expect it of anyone)

Quote
In the context of a committed relationship, I have to say I’ve largely planned most dates.  I think it tends to be the asker (predominately men) who plan dates while dating, but the female who tends to plan dates in committed relationships.
Fair enough

Quote
Equally I could point out that the vast majority of women I know are the ones to cook for their husbands.
aarrggggg ok ok ok, I admit it!  This includes me.  My wife did most of the cooking.  And then my girlfriend did.  But its not like I insisted or expected it.  I just don't cook.  When I live alone, I eat cereal and sandwiches and precooked meals.  I just happen to have lived with women who like to cook.  So they cook for me too.  And I fix stuff that breaks and do oil changes for us both - not because of social expectation, but just because I'm good at and enjoy that kind of stuff.

Its a slippery slope from expecting the guy to make the first move to trying to subtle encourage him to do so when he doesn't on his own to playing hard to get to saying no when you really mean yes.  And if that is a guys experience with women, he learns that no doesn't always mean no, because for some women it doesn't, because they want to stay in the submissive role.  In one survey more than half of sexually active college women admitted to saying no when they really wanted to proceed, sometimes explicitly with the explanation that they wanted the guy to be more aggressive.  Its a pretty extreme version of waiting for him to make the first move, but it isn't qualitatively different, its just further down the continuum.  And I should think its clear how that encourages sexual assault.

Let’s nip this one in the bud, shall we?  No means no.  If this means educating some women (not just men) that no means no and they should only use it when they mean no, so be it.[/quote]

Well personally I couldn't agree with you more.  And I think we DO need to educate women on that, among other things.  All the focus has been on changing the behavior and attitudes of men, as though they live in a vacuum. 
My point is, in the actual world we live in today, for as much as 60% (more than half!) of women, no DOESN'T always mean no, and if thats the message a young man gets over and over from his own sex partners, that is going to outweigh the message he gets from public service announcements.
Perhaps people shouldn't extrapolate from their experience with one person to interactions with another, but we do, its human nature to find patterns and assume the future will reflect the past.
[/quote]
David Lasik's (and others) work has shown that some men do understand no means no, but they believe a lack of no means yes, even if that lack is because of fear or being drugged.  But instead of getting on that, again, how about we just focus on this thread. 
ETA: To be more clear.  Some men.  The majority of men and women understand the meaning of consent quite well.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 12:16:28 PM by Gin1984 »

Bakari

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #106 on: April 28, 2014, 12:14:48 PM »
(This is a situation where you think you are going somewhere as friends, but discover they think and are trying to make it into a date.)  Here insisting to pay is critical, to show you don't see it as a date.
Its not critical.  You could just, you know, tell them "Just so you know, I don't see this as a date, and I don't want to".


Quote

Ooooh, a massage.  Men do this?  I might consider divorcing my husband for someone who gives regular massages, male or female.
lol.  I do.  I didn't think it was that rare.
Usually not on a first date.  Maybe on a second or third, if they go well.

Quote
Really, you are bothered by who holds open doors?  It’s a fading tradition in any event, and women will hold open for the person behind them even if they don’t stand to the side to let the person through first (but men don’t do this so much anymore either).
I'm bothered if a woman expects it, every time.  If she holds it when she gets there first, and expects the same, I can appreciate courtesy.  I try to stand to the side and let the person behind me through, often even if its just a random stranger (but I never expect it of anyone)

Quote
In the context of a committed relationship, I have to say I’ve largely planned most dates.  I think it tends to be the asker (predominately men) who plan dates while dating, but the female who tends to plan dates in committed relationships.
Fair enough

Quote
Equally I could point out that the vast majority of women I know are the ones to cook for their husbands.
aarrggggg ok ok ok, I admit it!  This includes me.  My wife did most of the cooking.  And then my girlfriend did.  But its not like I insisted or expected it.  I just don't cook.  When I live alone, I eat cereal and sandwiches and precooked meals.  I just happen to have lived with women who like to cook.  So they cook for me too.  And I fix stuff that breaks and do oil changes for us both - not because of social expectation, but just because I'm good at and enjoy that kind of stuff.

Its a slippery slope from expecting the guy to make the first move to trying to subtle encourage him to do so when he doesn't on his own to playing hard to get to saying no when you really mean yes.  And if that is a guys experience with women, he learns that no doesn't always mean no, because for some women it doesn't, because they want to stay in the submissive role.  In one survey more than half of sexually active college women admitted to saying no when they really wanted to proceed, sometimes explicitly with the explanation that they wanted the guy to be more aggressive.  Its a pretty extreme version of waiting for him to make the first move, but it isn't qualitatively different, its just further down the continuum.  And I should think its clear how that encourages sexual assault.

Let’s nip this one in the bud, shall we?  No means no.  If this means educating some women (not just men) that no means no and they should only use it when they mean no, so be it.

Well personally I couldn't agree with you more.  And I think we DO need to educate women on that, among other things.  All the focus has been on changing the behavior and attitudes of men, as though they live in a vacuum. 
My point is, in the actual world we live in today, for as much as 60% (more than half!) of women, no DOESN'T always mean no, and if thats the message a young man gets over and over from his own sex partners, that is going to outweigh the message he gets from public service announcements.
Perhaps people shouldn't extrapolate from their experience with one person to interactions with another, but we do, its human nature to find patterns and assume the future will reflect the past.

EDIT: just to be clear - I'm not suggesting that makes assault any more ok.  I'm just saying it makes it more understandable.
And I see a continuum of behaviors consisting of being deliberately dishonest in order to conform to a perceived gender role, with fake offering to pay a bill at one end and fake declining sex at the other.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 01:28:51 PM by Bakari »

dragoncar

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #107 on: April 28, 2014, 02:30:25 PM »
I think this one has been fully answered now.

Next topic:  How do I get a girl to sleep with me on the first date?  Any tricks?

CommonCents

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #108 on: April 28, 2014, 02:46:57 PM »
I think this one has been fully answered now.

Next topic:  How do I get a girl to sleep with me on the first date?  Any tricks?

More seeking on casual encounters section of Craigslist and less on match.com would be my suggestion

Chuck

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2014, 03:03:37 PM »
I go for a hybrid of classic and modern:

I will always reach for the bill, but when she offers to pay half (which she should) I do not resist at all. If she does not offer to pay half, it counts against her in my eyes. I'll still go for a second date, but I won't get in anything long term with someone who expects me to finance our relationship.

So far this is working out great.

Dezrah

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #110 on: April 28, 2014, 04:34:52 PM »
In my view, there are some additional unspoken rules that attend the “asker pays model” of dating etiquette.  It basically boils down to the rules for host/guest etiquette.

Rules for Asker:
-Do not plan anything that you can’t afford.  If you can’t go somewhere and pay for both you then you can’t afford it.
-There are no guarantees that things will go well or continue beyond a single date.  Be prepared to pay for the entire date and do not expect anything in return.  This includes future dates, baked goods, sex (this better not be news to you), and so on.
-If your date tries to pay for half, decline once and if they still insist, allow them to pay and let it go.  You should still refuse to let them cover the whole tab.
-If you realize that you and your date simply don’t click, try to be gracious and carry on with your original plans unless your date insists otherwise.  When you offered dinner and a movie, you should assume your date genuinely wanted to see that movie and it would be poor behavior to take that away now.
-You always have the option to call it a night if you feel you are being taken advantage of or your date is a jerk.  This should still be done as gracefully as possible.

Rules for Askee:
-Do not accept an offer from someone if you know there is no possibility of a relationship.  No accepting a date just for a free meal.
-Do not order anything that you wouldn’t normally order for yourself.  If you usually skip the appetizers and stop at one glass of house wine, do not order the spinach dip and three martinis just because it’s on someone else’s tab.
-Do not insist on extras for the date unless you’re willing to pay for it.  If you really want to try out that ice-cream parlor that your date was going to walk by, you should pay for it.
-If the date goes well and you see potential, you should plan and pay for the next date.
-If you and your date don’t click, be gracious and insist you each go your separate ways before incurring additional expenses.  Paying for your half at this point is generous but not mandatory.

anisotropy

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #111 on: April 28, 2014, 04:36:56 PM »

arebelspy

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #112 on: April 28, 2014, 06:02:52 PM »
do whatever gets you laid

:P

Heh, definitely not something I would say.  But to each his own.  :)
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Bakari

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #113 on: April 28, 2014, 07:54:38 PM »
I think this one has been fully answered now.

Next topic:  How do I get a girl to sleep with me on the first date?  Any tricks?

Ask out, or get asked out by, a girl who sometimes sleeps with people on first dates.
Then, genuinely have no intention or expectation of sleeping with her.
Agree to her gradual escalations.
Sexy fun time!

I don't know if that really counts as a "trick", but it has worked for me twice so far.

Emg03063

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #114 on: April 28, 2014, 08:07:07 PM »
I think this one has been fully answered now.

Next topic:  How do I get a girl to sleep with me on the first date?  Any tricks?

Forget dating and just hire a pro.

FuckRx

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #115 on: April 28, 2014, 08:17:28 PM »

If I ask someone on a first date like
"hey, I was wondering if you are free Saturday morning, I wanted to invite you out to a really nice coffee shop with great food" ... then I would totally pay. After all, I invited them out. But when 2 people mutually agree to get together like "oh cool you like doing XXXX too, that's awesome, looks like we have some things in common, would love to hear more about it.".... "yea we should get together, are you free this weekend?".... "yea this Saturday would work, where do you want to meet?".... "wonderful, let's find a spot in downtown, we can walk to practically anything, let's meet at XXXX and got from there".... so then it gets trickier but i think people answered the question...

as for getting laid i definitely recommend a hooker, s/he will likely make you use a condom, and it's mutually beneficial. win-win situation.


CommonCents

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #116 on: April 28, 2014, 09:09:35 PM »
In my view, there are some additional unspoken rules that attend the “asker pays model” of dating etiquette.  It basically boils down to the rules for host/guest etiquette.

Rules for Asker:
-Do not plan anything that you can’t afford.  If you can’t go somewhere and pay for both you then you can’t afford it.
-There are no guarantees that things will go well or continue beyond a single date.  Be prepared to pay for the entire date and do not expect anything in return.  This includes future dates, baked goods, sex (this better not be news to you), and so on.
-If your date tries to pay for half, decline once and if they still insist, allow them to pay and let it go.  You should still refuse to let them cover the whole tab.
-If you realize that you and your date simply don’t click, try to be gracious and carry on with your original plans unless your date insists otherwise.  When you offered dinner and a movie, you should assume your date genuinely wanted to see that movie and it would be poor behavior to take that away now.
-You always have the option to call it a night if you feel you are being taken advantage of or your date is a jerk.  This should still be done as gracefully as possible.

Rules for Askee:
-Do not accept an offer from someone if you know there is no possibility of a relationship.  No accepting a date just for a free meal.
-Do not order anything that you wouldn’t normally order for yourself.  If you usually skip the appetizers and stop at one glass of house wine, do not order the spinach dip and three martinis just because it’s on someone else’s tab.
-Do not insist on extras for the date unless you’re willing to pay for it.  If you really want to try out that ice-cream parlor that your date was going to walk by, you should pay for it.
-If the date goes well and you see potential, you should plan and pay for the next date.
-If you and your date don’t click, be gracious and insist you each go your separate ways before incurring additional expenses.  Paying for your half at this point is generous but not mandatory.

+1  good summary

Zamboni

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #117 on: April 28, 2014, 11:20:53 PM »
+2 for Dezrah!

Seriously, Mustachians, at least some of the first date must involve demonstrating good manners. 

I actually believe it violates protocol to insist on paying (even for yourself) when someone else has issued an invitation.  The same is true at business meals (talking about a meeting between two companies here), but in that case not only does the host pay, the host of highest rank pays if it is a group.  If you happen to be a woman of highest rank of the hosting side, then this will probably confuse the wait staff, but anyone at the table demonstrating good business etiquette will not question you picking up the check.

I even turned down a job once because of the boorish manners of the idiot interviewing me over lunch.  Every action he took indicated that he thought the world revolved around him and that he had no clue how to extend even the smallest courtesy to another person during a meal.  Maybe I am just a table etiquette snob?  No, in fact the poor third guy who was trying to recruit me was red faced with embarrassment for half the meal and then walked me to my car apologizing for his colleague the whole way afterward.

None of us has perfect manners, but we should at least try our best.

Gin1984

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2014, 04:56:36 AM »

If I ask someone on a first date like
"hey, I was wondering if you are free Saturday morning, I wanted to invite you out to a really nice coffee shop with great food" ... then I would totally pay. After all, I invited them out. But when 2 people mutually agree to get together like "oh cool you like doing XXXX too, that's awesome, looks like we have some things in common, would love to hear more about it.".... "yea we should get together, are you free this weekend?".... "yea this Saturday would work, where do you want to meet?".... "wonderful, let's find a spot in downtown, we can walk to practically anything, let's meet at XXXX and got from there".... so then it gets trickier but i think people answered the question...

as for getting laid i definitely recommend a hooker, s/he will likely make you use a condom, and it's mutually beneficial. win-win situation.
The person who said the bolded is still the host.  I don't know why you see this as so tricky. 

secondcor521

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2014, 12:50:05 PM »
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone on this thread.  It has made me aware of some things that I had not thought about before.  After rethinking them, I'll probably proceed differently in the future in an effort to make my actions comport better with my intent.

arebelspy

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2014, 01:07:19 PM »
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone on this thread.  It has made me aware of some things that I had not thought about before.  After rethinking them, I'll probably proceed differently in the future in an effort to make my actions comport better with my intent.

Awesome.  Good for you for reflecting and improving.
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jnik

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2014, 03:16:09 PM »
When she objects (which is usually) I suggest she pay next time, which both makes it egalitarian and gives an excuse for a second date.
That's usually my strategy, too. I've always had the lady offer (I've had more "first time out for lunch with a friend" than "first date") and always picked it up with that offer (going light on the assumption of second date), and she's always remembered for the second time.

I think my current lady-friend and I were keeping track of whose turn it was until three years into the relationship and two years after we moved in. Lightheartedly, of course.

I do think "asker pays" is the implied social contract these days; fits with "man pays" for those who are gender-normative.

CommonCents: my offer of a backrub was what turned one of those "maybe this a first date" into "definitely a first date" (sadly not a particularly long relationship)...but before you divorce your husband, check with my lady...

studentdoc2

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #122 on: April 29, 2014, 03:28:00 PM »
Personally, I think first dates (at least, first dates that start with internet dating sites) should ALWAYS follow the separate checks/bill splitting rule. It's like a mutual interview -- you should be unbeholden to the other person. For future dates, I'm fine with either the person asking doing the paying or continuing to split.

When I was dating (within the past few years), I would always offer to split the bill -- any guy who refused to split the bill never got a second date. It was a system that worked out beautifully -- quickly filtered out any patriarchal old-school guys, who wouldn't have lasted long with an independent feminist like myself anyway :).

Must_Stash

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #123 on: April 29, 2014, 08:31:59 PM »
Quote
There are some women who feel strongly enough about their independence that they would be offended to be paid for on a first date.  How can I know which are those?  Well, they are likely to suggest each paying our own way.  So me, trying to be respectful of the other person's desires, go along with what they say they want, instead of insisting on doing things my way.  That, to me, is basic politeness.

This is an excellent place to come from. And it can work very well to have two people who mutually prefer to split the cost. I don't think we should judge those who conform to the norm of the man paying, however reaching a point where assumptions about who pays (and whether the man therefore generally has more power than the woman, by taking on some sort of 'provider' role) are no longer an issue. Sometimes it's easier to be utopian about the gender relation stuff in principle than it is in practice, though. I've asked men out before, and I try to be enlightened about gender roles, but wanting to protect myself does give me pause about acting on all of the abstract opinions I have about how things 'should' work, for fear of how it actually works in practice.

It's complicated and everyone has to find the balance that's right for them.


This comment refers to the first date or two:    It's sad that people have lost the ability to be gracious.   Not just in offering to pay but in politely allowing the host to pay.
When one is asked on a date, in essence, they are "hosting".    I don't really see how any man or woman takes on a risk of their independence being compromised because they politely accepted having their dinner companion  pay for the meal.   A kind and genuine word of appreciation might go a lot further in making a connection with someone.

Totally agree.  Anyone who truly gives a shit about who pays on a first date is a weirdo, and someone I would avoid.  The first date should be casual, fast, and inexpensive.  Discussions about who should pay should be the same.  If a guy invites a woman out for an expensive dinner as some sort of grim test of her character, to see if she'll offer to pay, that's weird.  Interactions, especially when it comes to a first date, should be easy and fun.  I make plenty of money.  I don't need some dude to buy me a glass of wine.  Whatever.  It costs $7.  If it's that big a deal, don't date at all.  The whole point of this site, IMO, is that you take care of your finances to the point where you can enjoy human relationships without having them be fraught with money worries.  Shrug.

I think this is spot-on.  I personally needed to relax more about this; I used to worry that accepting or making an offer to pay had such Grave Importance, Being a Very Serious Matter of Social and Financial Equity.  I'm much better now!

FuckRx

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2014, 12:22:24 AM »

Totally agree.  Anyone who truly gives a shit about who pays on a first date is a weirdo, and someone I would avoid.  The first date should be casual, fast, and inexpensive.  Discussions about who should pay should be the same.  If a guy invites a woman out for an expensive dinner as some sort of grim test of her character, to see if she'll offer to pay, that's weird.  Interactions, especially when it comes to a first date, should be easy and fun.  I make plenty of money.  I don't need some dude to buy me a glass of wine.  Whatever.  It costs $7.  If it's that big a deal, don't date at all.  The whole point of this site, IMO, is that you take care of your finances to the point where you can enjoy human relationships without having them be fraught with money worries.  Shrug.

I'm gonna have to disagree with the statement in bold. When you say the first date should be casual....well what's casual about expecting the other person to pay? and it should be fast & inexpensive... it's fast alright if I'm the only one reaching for my wallet but it certainly won't be inexpensive if I'm the one expected to pay.
When you take the "him" & "her" out of the equation and just put yourself in my shoes as a dude going on however many dates and I'm always expected to pay then it no longer feels casual/inexpensive to me. More like a chore and something I probably should budget for.
I hardly believe it's about income/affording the date. Rarely have I come across someone who thinks frugal is anything but a 4-letter word. They spend plenty of money going out and so I doubt that they are trying to all of a sudden be frugal wondering if they can afford the $7 wine ($14 in san diego). I agree that if a guy is just trying to test the woman then that's just weird/pathetic and not even helpful. 
I think I'm just bitching about why I'm always expected to pay on dates. And since I'm wining please feel free to face punch.

greaper007

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #125 on: April 30, 2014, 12:55:26 AM »
I have no idea.    I've never been on a date.    I'd either meet women in a bar or at a party and get the ummm formalization process out of the way that night.     12 years and two kids later that seemed to have  been a good plan.

Must_Stash

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #126 on: April 30, 2014, 04:23:22 AM »

Totally agree.  Anyone who truly gives a shit about who pays on a first date is a weirdo, and someone I would avoid.  The first date should be casual, fast, and inexpensive.  Discussions about who should pay should be the same.  If a guy invites a woman out for an expensive dinner as some sort of grim test of her character, to see if she'll offer to pay, that's weird.  Interactions, especially when it comes to a first date, should be easy and fun.  I make plenty of money.  I don't need some dude to buy me a glass of wine.  Whatever.  It costs $7.  If it's that big a deal, don't date at all.  The whole point of this site, IMO, is that you take care of your finances to the point where you can enjoy human relationships without having them be fraught with money worries.  Shrug.

I'm gonna have to disagree with the statement in bold. When you say the first date should be casual....well what's casual about expecting the other person to pay? and it should be fast & inexpensive... it's fast alright if I'm the only one reaching for my wallet but it certainly won't be inexpensive if I'm the one expected to pay.
When you take the "him" & "her" out of the equation and just put yourself in my shoes as a dude going on however many dates and I'm always expected to pay then it no longer feels casual/inexpensive to me. More like a chore and something I probably should budget for.
I hardly believe it's about income/affording the date. Rarely have I come across someone who thinks frugal is anything but a 4-letter word. They spend plenty of money going out and so I doubt that they are trying to all of a sudden be frugal wondering if they can afford the $7 wine ($14 in san diego). I agree that if a guy is just trying to test the woman then that's just weird/pathetic and not even helpful. 
I think I'm just bitching about why I'm always expected to pay on dates. And since I'm wining please feel free to face punch.

Be more selective about whom you ask out.  Ask out fewer people, only the ones you like a lot, know pretty well, and would enjoy treating to a coffee or even a meal.  How many dates do you go on each month?  Personally I think it's too much trouble to date more than a few times a month, max.  I'm just not that social.

Maybe going on dates too freely is like spending too freely.  Like shopping constantly, beyond one's needs. 

There's actually lots of good suggestions in this thread about inexpensive dating options too.   And the meet people at parties option is good, too.  Try group events, like Meet-up clubs?  More and more, I use the hang-out option to get to know a guy a few times before I ask him out/ accept a date.  Using a combination of these ideas could save us all money, frustration, and lead to much more enjoyable dates.  I think this thread has got a lot of good options in it for new directions. 

LOL, were you whining?  Well, whining seems to be step one for most of us in confronting our disappointments.  So it's a starting point toward solving them.  Starting is good!  It's only bad for me if I get stuck in step one!

wealthywinters

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #127 on: April 30, 2014, 05:08:12 AM »
I'll skip all the debate I've skimmed in the threads and put in my two cents:

Both my husband and my most recent ex-boyfriend (the one I dated before I met my husband) came over to my house the first time we spent time together - probably because we're all computer nerds who have much more fun with a laptop in front of us than in a restaurant.

My husband when I met him had a huge income compared to me, and paid for us going out (but we were kind of instantly very close so there was never any real "date" feeling).

I think it's nicer for the person who earns the higher income to pay, out of politeness, and if you earn roughly equal incomes to just split the bill. I'm open about money and it would not faze me to say "really, I earn roughly what you do, it makes sense to split the bill evenly". Another alternative is that, if the other person pays for you, to pay the second time.

As a woman I do not expect a man (or woman) to do anything for me, but am always grateful if they do (i.e. pay for a meal, hold the door, etc.). I appreciate general politeness, and my husband and I are so much alike on this that we will often have the joking exchange "after you" "no, after you", "no, no, no, please, after you" and so on because we're both super polite.

Another thought to FuckRx is this: could you take your dates places which are free? Museums, the park for a picnic, and so on? I don't even say this from a financial point of view, but from the point of something being different and interesting. Perhaps arrange a date around something you enjoy doing and would do anyway - it doesn't cost you extra, and if they're not interested in something you really like, it's unlikely they're going to be a future partner. If I asked a guy on a date to a museum, and he rolled his eyes and thought it was boring, it would be obvious to me he was not someone I would be interested in being with long-term. I don't know if this is suitable for you or not. I don't think you should have to continually foot the bill, and if the girls you are going out with are expecting this, perhaps (and I don't mean this condescendingly! I really am being genuine!) then you should perhaps look elsewhere? If a girl expects to be paid for on a first date, what is the rest of her financial life going to be like? I would always offer to pay for my half of a bill, because that's fair.

CommonCents

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #128 on: April 30, 2014, 08:35:56 AM »
When you take the "him" & "her" out of the equation and just put yourself in my shoes as a dude going on however many dates and I'm always expected to pay then it no longer feels casual/inexpensive to me. More like a chore and something I probably should budget for.
I hardly believe it's about income/affording the date. Rarely have I come across someone who thinks frugal is anything but a 4-letter word. They spend plenty of money going out and so I doubt that they are trying to all of a sudden be frugal wondering if they can afford the $7 wine ($14 in san diego). I agree that if a guy is just trying to test the woman then that's just weird/pathetic and not even helpful. 
I think I'm just bitching about why I'm always expected to pay on dates. And since I'm wining please feel free to face punch.

Be more selective about whom you ask out.  Ask out fewer people, only the ones you like a lot, know pretty well, and would enjoy treating to a coffee or even a meal.  How many dates do you go on each month?  Personally I think it's too much trouble to date more than a few times a month, max.  I'm just not that social.

+1
If this is causing this much stress, I have to agree it sounds like you might want to focus on quality over quantity and cut down on the number of dates.

If I sat down and thought hard about it, I could probably list 85% of all of the dates I've ever been on.  That's because I didn't date much.  And I'm not recluse or relationship-shy.  I've been in 3 long-term relationships (defined as over 1 years, but ranged from 3.5 to 6 years), with some 2-3 month ones in high school.  I just tend to date people I know a little (friends or acquaintances) and don't really do blind dates.  If I was interested in someone I'd also consider inviting them onto a group outing, which takes some of the "date" pressure off (and associated cost) but still lets you get to know them.  Uncomfortable as it is, I've also turned down dates as well.

Some ideas:
  • Be more selective on who you date
  • Look for creative, low cost dates (this will have the benefit of having you stand out more than "another dinner or drinks")
    • In my city, you could go with someone to see free Shakespeare on the Commons in the summer, watch a movie or listen to a concert at the Hatch Shell for free, walk along the esplanade, go see a museum on the free days, hiking at the Fells, just grab a frisbee and go to a park, drive to a beach if one is nearby, etc.
      Consider also mixing things up, such as suggesting getting ice cream (instead of coffee).
  • Don't be afraid to invite the person onto group outings or parties/events
    • Technically, before our first "official" date, I actually invited my now husband to join me up in NH at my parent's house for Memorial Day weekend with other friends from disparate activities for kayaking, hiking and relaxing by the lake.  I still tease him he came a day late from everyone else because he already had plans to see Indiana Jones 4 with friends which he wouldn't change.
      Invite them rock climbing in a group, to play board games with some friends, etc.  Whatever appeals to you.
  • Try to meet people through activities you are interested in/have in common rather than through blind dates.  This lets you get to know someone while paying individually for expenses
    • I've met people through playing soccer (my husband), and joining a very low-cost sailing club.

AMustachianMurse

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #129 on: April 30, 2014, 08:51:40 AM »
If the "date" went good I would grab the bill... especially if I was the one who asked her out...
If the date went bad, check if the windows in the bathroom open...

Rofl. +1

swick

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #130 on: April 30, 2014, 09:44:47 AM »
I have a funny feeling most of the "whoever asks, pays" crowd have either never or rarely asked someone out. Convenient. Entitled, but convenient.

I would consider the above statement as incredibly generalized and a little pompous.

I have asked many times (and expected to pay), I have lived in a culture where the man pays. Period. It is an insult to suggest otherwise. It all depends on where you live, how you (and the other person) has been raised and what you consider acceptable to who you are, and it is a personal choice.

This extends beyond dating though, my personal comfort level is if I invite ANYONE to do something and choose the location and activity, I expect to cover it. Fortunately, I choose my friends and who I have dated (and married) well and usually fall into a comfortable pattern of you get it this time, I'll get it next time. Or you bought the tickets, I'll grab the drinks afterwards.

I don't want any of my relationships to be a tit for tat, keep track of the last penny and who pays for what game. It would signify to me that that particular relationship is not worth my time or financial investment.

That being said, I am fortunate enough to have awesome friends and a husband who I just enjoy spending time with, and while it might take a little more effort planning wise and a little more creativity, it is rarely an issue because we do things that are awesome and low-cost.

southern granny

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #131 on: April 30, 2014, 12:43:42 PM »
If the guy who asked me out even hinted that I should pay any part of the bill, I would leave him and the check at the restaurant and there would never be a second date.  Only when we were in an exclusive relationship would I begin to share expenses. May be a southern thing, but down here the man pays.  Of course if the girl did the asking, it might be different.

FrugalZony

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #132 on: April 30, 2014, 12:58:06 PM »

I think I'm just bitching about why I'm always expected to pay on dates. And since I'm wining please feel free to face punch.

Well, as you asked....
That may have to do with your choice of whom to date! Maybe?

I don't want to jump to conclusions about YOUR preference when it comes to women...
...but I see it a lot with a certain male friend of mine, who has a preference for a particular
"target group" of women and then is surprised they turn out to be high maintenance ;)
Each time, he complains, I am like DUH!!! You brought that on yourself....
Again, I don't know you or the kind of ladies you date, but that's just food for thought, if you realize that there's
a pattern in expectations from the women you meet, than that may have to do with your selection criteria in the first place

As somebody who has not done any dating in the US and has met all her previous partners (including my soon to be ex) in a different cultural context
this whole dating scene and unwritten rules are scary to me, honestly I am dreading the day I will have to deal with the dating scene...

Generally speaking I prefer to pay my share. Period. No matter if it's someone I have a romantic interest in now or down the road or maybe or never.
If I go out with good friends, we sometimes take turns in picking up the tab, because it's easier, but everyone always seems to remember!

AJ

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #133 on: April 30, 2014, 01:01:46 PM »
I think this one has been fully answered now.

Next topic:  How do I get a girl to sleep with me on the first date?  Any tricks?

That's easy! Just ask ahead of time. Rather than "hey, do you want to get coffee?" say "hey, do you want to get coffee and then fuck?" That will rule out all the girls that don't want sex on the first date.

dragoncar

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #134 on: April 30, 2014, 01:06:51 PM »
If the guy who asked me out even hinted that I should pay any part of the bill, I would leave him and the check at the restaurant and there would never be a second date.  Only when we were in an exclusive relationship would I begin to share expenses. May be a southern thing, but down here the man pays.  Of course if the girl did the asking, it might be different.

Might?

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #135 on: April 30, 2014, 01:36:31 PM »
I think this one has been fully answered now.

Next topic:  How do I get a girl to sleep with me on the first date?  Any tricks?

That's easy! Just ask ahead of time. Rather than "hey, do you want to get coffee?" say "hey, do you want to get coffee and then fuck?" That will rule out all the girls that don't want sex on the first date.

Unfortunately, it will also rule out a hell of a lot who would be willing to, but don't want to agree to it up front

AJ

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #136 on: April 30, 2014, 01:42:34 PM »
I think this one has been fully answered now.

Next topic:  How do I get a girl to sleep with me on the first date?  Any tricks?

That's easy! Just ask ahead of time. Rather than "hey, do you want to get coffee?" say "hey, do you want to get coffee and then fuck?" That will rule out all the girls that don't want sex on the first date.

Unfortunately, it will also rule out a hell of a lot who would be willing to, but don't want to agree to it up front

True, but it would be a major time-saver if sex on the first date is important to you. You could amend it to say "hey, want to get coffee and then maybe fuck, if we feel like it?"

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #137 on: April 30, 2014, 01:49:14 PM »
When you take the "him" & "her" out of the equation and just put yourself in my shoes as a dude going on however many dates and I'm always expected to pay then it no longer feels casual/inexpensive to me. More like a chore and something I probably should budget for.
I hardly believe it's about income/affording the date. Rarely have I come across someone who thinks frugal is anything but a 4-letter word. They spend plenty of money going out and so I doubt that they are trying to all of a sudden be frugal wondering if they can afford the $7 wine ($14 in san diego). I agree that if a guy is just trying to test the woman then that's just weird/pathetic and not even helpful. 
I think I'm just bitching about why I'm always expected to pay on dates. And since I'm wining please feel free to face punch.

Be more selective about whom you ask out.  Ask out fewer people, only the ones you like a lot, know pretty well, and would enjoy treating to a coffee or even a meal.  How many dates do you go on each month?  Personally I think it's too much trouble to date more than a few times a month, max.  I'm just not that social.

+1
If this is causing this much stress, I have to agree it sounds like you might want to focus on quality over quantity and cut down on the number of dates.


I'm surprised by how many people are willing to be complacent about being single, or take such a casual approach to dating.

Who you end up with is probably the single biggest, most influential life decision most people will ever make, right up there with having kids or not, and way way above what city to live in, what house or car to buy, or what career to pursue.
You wouldn't say "meh, if the right job comes along, I'll take it" - you go out and look for what you want!

Of course quality matters - if not, you could just go on one date, marry that person, and be done with it.

I've been on 36 first dates, but only 8 third dates.
I've met a number of people (including my ex-wife and one of the women I'm dating now) through regular life, school, work, fun events - but the majority are through the internet, for the simple reason that quality and compatibility matter.
On OKC I can filter for stuff like politics, religion, moral values, education, smoking, whether she has kids, whether she wants kids, frugality... not to mention if she is even single, and if so if she is looking for something serious.  How do you filter for all that stuff at a party?  It saves a whole lot of time.  And then, filter applied, I can read her self summary in text, and decide if I'm interested enough to write her, and then she can look at me and filter and save us some time, or not and we meet up, already knowing we have at least a little more in common than just mutual friends or a single shared hobby or interest.
And even after all that, 1 in 4 neither of us is interested enough for it to go anywhere.
I just keep getting older and older, while still being single, so to some extent it becomes a numbers game - if I made a point of going on fewer dates, just to space them out in principal, or to save money, it would just take that much longer to run across someone compatible.

The suggestions for dates that aren't dinner or drinks are good though.  Some of my best dates were at her place, or meet at farmers market, go back to my place and make lunch with what we bought, or a hike in the woods.  But for some reason most people always want the first one to be at a restaurant.


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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #138 on: April 30, 2014, 01:51:02 PM »
I think this one has been fully answered now.

Next topic:  How do I get a girl to sleep with me on the first date?  Any tricks?

That's easy! Just ask ahead of time. Rather than "hey, do you want to get coffee?" say "hey, do you want to get coffee and then fuck?" That will rule out all the girls that don't want sex on the first date.

Unfortunately, it will also rule out a hell of a lot who would be willing to, but don't want to agree to it up front

True, but it would be a major time-saver if sex on the first date is important to you. You could amend it to say "hey, want to get coffee and then maybe fuck, if we feel like it?"

lol - that's better, but I still think I would have been less likely to have agreed to meet either of the women who ended up seducing me on a first date if they had actually said that

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #139 on: April 30, 2014, 01:52:32 PM »
When you take the "him" & "her" out of the equation and just put yourself in my shoes as a dude going on however many dates and I'm always expected to pay then it no longer feels casual/inexpensive to me. More like a chore and something I probably should budget for.
I hardly believe it's about income/affording the date. Rarely have I come across someone who thinks frugal is anything but a 4-letter word. They spend plenty of money going out and so I doubt that they are trying to all of a sudden be frugal wondering if they can afford the $7 wine ($14 in san diego). I agree that if a guy is just trying to test the woman then that's just weird/pathetic and not even helpful. 
I think I'm just bitching about why I'm always expected to pay on dates. And since I'm wining please feel free to face punch.

Be more selective about whom you ask out.  Ask out fewer people, only the ones you like a lot, know pretty well, and would enjoy treating to a coffee or even a meal.  How many dates do you go on each month?  Personally I think it's too much trouble to date more than a few times a month, max.  I'm just not that social.

+1
If this is causing this much stress, I have to agree it sounds like you might want to focus on quality over quantity and cut down on the number of dates.


I'm surprised by how many people are willing to be complacent about being single, or take such a casual approach to dating.

Who you end up with is probably the single biggest, most influential life decision most people will ever make, right up there with having kids or not, and way way above what city to live in, what house or car to buy, or what career to pursue.
You wouldn't say "meh, if the right job comes along, I'll take it" - you go out and look for what you want!

Of course quality matters - if not, you could just go on one date, marry that person, and be done with it.

I've been on 36 first dates, but only 8 third dates.
I've met a number of people (including my ex-wife and one of the women I'm dating now) through regular life, school, work, fun events - but the majority are through the internet, for the simple reason that quality and compatibility matter.
On OKC I can filter for stuff like politics, religion, moral values, education, smoking, whether she has kids, whether she wants kids, frugality... not to mention if she is even single, and if so if she is looking for something serious.  How do you filter for all that stuff at a party?  It saves a whole lot of time.  And then, filter applied, I can read her self summary in text, and decide if I'm interested enough to write her, and then she can look at me and filter and save us some time, or not and we meet up, already knowing we have at least a little more in common than just mutual friends or a single shared hobby or interest.
And even after all that, 1 in 4 neither of us is interested enough for it to go anywhere.
I just keep getting older and older, while still being single, so to some extent it becomes a numbers game - if I made a point of going on fewer dates, just to space them out in principal, or to save money, it would just take that much longer to run across someone compatible.

The suggestions for dates that aren't dinner or drinks are good though.  Some of my best dates were at her place, or meet at farmers market, go back to my place and make lunch with what we bought, or a hike in the woods.  But for some reason most people always want the first one to be at a restaurant.
The reason could be safety.  Women are told not to go somewhere alone (back to her place, your place or hiking) with a man they have just met.  And you only have a 22% rate going from first to third dates, maybe you should take the time instead of relying on the internet, it does not seem to be serving you well.

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #140 on: April 30, 2014, 01:56:58 PM »
If this is causing this much stress, I have to agree it sounds like you might want to focus on quality over quantity and cut down on the number of dates.

I'm surprised by how many people are willing to be complacent about being single, or take such a casual approach to dating.

Focusing on quality is not meant to be complacent.  Rather the poster was complaining about the high cost as a stumbling block.  If he indeed, had only had 35 first dates (over say, a 10 year dating history) that would be low and at say, an ice cream each ($10 for two), total up to only $350, a very affordable amount.  But it sounds like he's going on multiple dates in a month and unhappy about the expenditures.  Better to not date anything with a pulse, but just a few that you're really interested in.  Turn a 22% return date ratio into better than 50%.

The suggestions for dates that aren't dinner or drinks are good though.  Some of my best dates were at her place, or meet at farmers market, go back to my place and make lunch with what we bought, or a hike in the woods.  But for some reason most people always want the first one to be at a restaurant.

Safety.  I'd never meet someone I didn't know very well at their home.  At least a semi public place is important.

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #141 on: April 30, 2014, 05:55:47 PM »
And you only have a 22% rate going from first to third dates, maybe you should take the time instead of relying on the internet, it does not seem to be serving you well.

IDK, I'd be shooting for that rate or lower - quantity to try it, but very picky to pass that barrier.
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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #142 on: April 30, 2014, 06:12:28 PM »
I no longer date, thank God. But a friend of mine told me about her first date with someone from work. He asked her out. He took her to his favorite sushi place. He ordered a lot of things on the menu, most of which she didn't touch because she is not a fan of sushi. He expected her to pay for half of it.

I thought that was in bad taste. Am I old fashioned? I don't mind paying half if I actually ate half of the food.

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #143 on: April 30, 2014, 10:04:03 PM »

The reason could be safety.  Women are told not to go somewhere alone (back to her place, your place or hiking) with a man they have just met.
That's what I figure, and why I just go with it.  And then we're back to paying for restaurant dinners.

Quote
And you only have a 22% rate going from first to third dates, maybe you should take the time instead of relying on the internet, it does not seem to be serving you well.

I don't know what you mean by "take the time". 
It's not like I'm avoiding meeting people in person.  Of 5 dates found via work or school or activities, only my ex wife and the woman I'm seeing now made it to a third date.  So that makes a total of 2.  From the internet its 7.  7 is more than 2, so I think it is serving me well.

Focusing on quality is not meant to be complacent.
I meant that as two separate comments - being complacent was referring to some people in this thread, and in the "relationship status" thread have said stuff about giving up on dating.  The suggestion to date less was more the "casual approach to dating"

Quote
Rather the poster was complaining about the high cost as a stumbling block.  If he indeed, had only had 35 first dates (over say, a 10 year dating history)
If you grabbed that 35 number from my example, that's over about 2 years. 
I don't think a couple dates a month qualifies as dating "anything with a pulse".
I don't know, maybe his standards are too high.  I know mine are.  I only go out with people who seem interesting, but usually the better I get to know them, the less interested I am.  If I am only compatible with one in 10,000 people, and I only met people who happened to be in my real life social networks, and then I only went out with one every few months, I probably wouldn't find a partner before I was dead.

I like this guy's suggestions: http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/02/pick-life-partner.html and I wish I had read this about 10-15 years ago

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #144 on: April 30, 2014, 11:18:05 PM »
I like this guy's suggestions: http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/02/pick-life-partner.html and I wish I had read this about 10-15 years ago

1. That article Bakari posted above is AWESOME! Yay!

2. This evening I thought, "If I were to live my life over, I would make sure of the right life partner from the start." Because I now believe in how much that truly impacts each of us. But then I thought, "Wait, I can just start living my life over now! And I can make precisely that decision." Happy.

3. I totally get why no hikes and homes (safety), but that doesn't leave us with just restaurants. The free evening at the art gallery. Tea, especially one at a really groovy tea house like the Sufi or chai ones here. Indoor disco rollerblading. That thing where people paint on a canvas together at an appies bar. All the other ideas posted throughout this thread. I think it'd be awesome to present to a date three options (all affordable to the asker), and let their date choose from those. (Man, I might really enjoy dating again...!)

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #145 on: May 01, 2014, 08:10:27 AM »
Focusing on quality is not meant to be complacent.
I meant that as two separate comments - being complacent was referring to some people in this thread, and in the "relationship status" thread have said stuff about giving up on dating.  The suggestion to date less was more the "casual approach to dating"

But it's not a casual approach is my point.  It's setting higher standards.  It's actually imho, a MORE rigorous approach.  Yes, you go on fewer dates, but you should be weeding out the least likely, focusing time and energy on those more likely possibilities.

Rather the poster was complaining about the high cost as a stumbling block.  If he indeed, had only had 35 first dates (over say, a 10 year dating history)
If you grabbed that 35 number from my example, that's over about 2 years. 
I don't think a couple dates a month qualifies as dating "anything with a pulse".

Yes, I pulled from your number, using it as an example that it need not be  that many dates/as expensive as he's making it out to be.  (To be crystal clear: I agree you are being more selective than him.)  I think this guy is dating a lot more than you if he's got this issue.  Even 35 dates over 2 years isn't that expensive, if you utilitize the MANY free or inexpensive suggestions in this thread.  And given you may get some friends out of it or enjoyable experiences, beyond the hope of a compatible partner, I think it's a reasonable cost.

The reason could be safety.  Women are told not to go somewhere alone (back to her place, your place or hiking) with a man they have just met.
That's what I figure, and why I just go with it.  And then we're back to paying for restaurant dinners.

/smacks head
reread the thread.  There's probably ~25 different suggestions of non-restaurant dinner date ideas here alone.  I know I gave about ~10.  If that's not enough, start a separate thread asking for ideas.

As a side note, here the men are complaining about costs of dates and we're all urging everyone to be creative, mustachian and think outside the box to avoid the cost of dates.  I've read other boards where the women complain about the (higher! gasp) cost of dates for them, because in their minds it includes: a mani/pedi, recent hair dresser appointment (w/in 6 weeks), new outfit, makeup (all those tubes and powers gets expensive), a wax, etc.  And anyone complaining here on that line would be smacked for thinking it was all necessary and tell them: use an old outfit (maybe in a new way ala project 33), cut and do your hair and nails at home, skip the wax for the razor, cut back on the makeup to what you minimally need, etc.  This is pretty much the same thing: stop thinking an (expensive) restuarant date is required!  I assure you, the women (and men) will remember a non-traditional date far more than a traditional dinner and movie.

Liked the article btw.

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #146 on: May 01, 2014, 08:32:40 AM »
I think this one has been fully answered now.

Next topic:  How do I get a girl to sleep with me on the first date?  Any tricks?

That's easy! Just ask ahead of time. Rather than "hey, do you want to get coffee?" say "hey, do you want to get coffee and then fuck?" That will rule out all the girls that don't want sex on the first date.

Unfortunately, it will also rule out a hell of a lot who would be willing to, but don't want to agree to it up front

True, but it would be a major time-saver if sex on the first date is important to you. You could amend it to say "hey, want to get coffee and then maybe fuck, if we feel like it?"

HA!  My first thought was to be aghast, but honestly this might actually work if all the circumstances are favorable!

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #147 on: May 01, 2014, 05:39:12 PM »


/smacks head
reread the thread.  There's probably ~25 different suggestions of non-restaurant dinner date ideas here alone.  I know I gave about ~10.  If that's not enough, start a separate thread asking for ideas.

yeah, I was thinking about that before, even though I didn't get into it.
Some of them are good ideas - if they happen to be available where you live.  Some of them though, if its something to watch or an activity that requires attention, it might be memorable, but you don't have a lot of chance to actually talk and get to know each other.  And if its too much fun, its easy to mistake enjoying the activity for enjoying the person.  Or, some of them still have the supposed safety issue, like anywhere isolated (beach, hikes), or anything involving giving or accepting a ride (have to give out home address).

But of course, even within the traditional food or beverage first date, there is no reason it has to be expensive.  My last two were tea, and vietnamese sandwiches.

Its the 2nd date where we went to boardgame night and hiking, (respectively) (both by motorcycle, of course)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 07:10:34 PM by Bakari »

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #148 on: May 02, 2014, 10:53:37 AM »
Quote
I'm gonna have to disagree with the statement in bold. When you say the first date should be casual....well what's casual about expecting the other person to pay? and it should be fast & inexpensive... it's fast alright if I'm the only one reaching for my wallet but it certainly won't be inexpensive if I'm the one expected to pay.
When you take the "him" & "her" out of the equation and just put yourself in my shoes as a dude going on however many dates and I'm always expected to pay then it no longer feels casual/inexpensive to me. More like a chore and something I probably should budget for.
I hardly believe it's about income/affording the date. Rarely have I come across someone who thinks frugal is anything but a 4-letter word. They spend plenty of money going out and so I doubt that they are trying to all of a sudden be frugal wondering if they can afford the $7 wine ($14 in san diego). I agree that if a guy is just trying to test the woman then that's just weird/pathetic and not even helpful. 

Maybe this out of line, but maybe before you date any further, you should examine how you feel about women. You seem to see us as good-for-nothing wastrels who only want to rob you of your money and possibly lead you on. With that attitude, there is no point in dating. Seriously. Examine if you have a sexist or negative attitude towards women, and how that is mixed up both with your expectations and with social perceptions of money and gender.

You seem like someone with some unresolved resentment towards the other sex. What's up with that? Why do you perhaps think women are trying to take you for a ride? Are you attracted to the wrong women? Or do you see sex and relationships as an inherent power struggle, with men effectively using their power/money to get women to give up sex? That underlying assumption is going to poison your attitude, and women WILL sense it.

I could be off base, so apologies if so, I just would encourage you to examine what's fueling your anger over paying on dates, and how you can avoid being in that situation/having that perspective. I don't say this feeling like 'Of course men always must pay, it's our right as females!', but you're hitting your head against a wall here and until you take a big picture look it's going to keep happening.

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Re: first date and the bill...
« Reply #149 on: May 02, 2014, 10:55:09 AM »
Why not show off your badass cooking skills at home? or do a picnic?