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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: beekeeper on February 26, 2019, 12:50:25 AM

Title: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: beekeeper on February 26, 2019, 12:50:25 AM
My parents are retired. They wake up each day and decide how many cups of tea to drink in bed before getting up for the day, whether to read a book or walk over to visit a friend, what to plan with friends in the evenings, what long vacations to arrange, whether to start a new creative project or not, and so on. They are very happy and content.

FIRE seems to be about enjoying this lifestyle from a younger age. How does that work when you have kids though? How old do they have to be before parents could live a FIRE lifestyle with any semblance to a traditional retirement? Is it once they start school, or once they are teenagers, or once they are grown up?

I am asking this in the context of how we would choose a target date to FIRE. I don't feel the attraction to FIRE at the moment because work is not an especially demanding dimension of my life compared with kids. I am wondering if other people have felt this way in the past and at what point that changed and FIRE started to represent leisure?
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Metalcat on February 26, 2019, 04:35:57 AM
First, FIRE really isn't about any generalizable goals other than to not do work that you don't enjoy any longer than you have to.

Beyond that, everyone's FIRE goals are personal and different.

Also, other than the morning routine, I don't see why you couldn't do all of the things you mentioned that your parents do once your kids are off to school?

I mean, sure, if you enjoy your job and don't mind staying in it while your kids are in school, and if you really don't have anything else you would rather do with your daytime hours, then sure, why not keep working?

Otherwise, I don't really get why having kids would make someone stay in a job that they don't need, just because having kids makes leisure time less leisurely??
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Cranky on February 26, 2019, 05:07:03 AM
When my parents retired, they were a million times busier than when they just went to work every day! For retirement isn't necessarily about laying around the house.

Plus, some people want to retire and spend more time with their kids. I, personally, very much enjoyed being home with my kids.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: beekeeper on February 26, 2019, 05:44:57 AM
I don't see why you couldn't do all of the things you mentioned that your parents do once your kids are off to school?

This is partly what I am asking. My kids have not started school yet. Maybe the answer is that once they do then FIRE would create a lot of leisure time. I don't have the experience to know yet!
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Hula Hoop on February 26, 2019, 05:54:23 AM
I think once your kids are at school, it gets a lot easier to have leisure time.  My kids are now 7 and 10 - I still work full time but things are a lot easier in a lot of ways when I am home with them on weekends.  They can entertain themselves to some extent and I don't need to watch them all the time to make sure they don't swallow small objects. 
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on February 26, 2019, 06:41:18 AM
I’m trying to have a kid now but my plan is to FIRE when the kid is 5. I think it would be great to be fully present before and after school, have time for myself while the kid is at school and then be able to plan extended holidays and trips because I wouldn’t be confined to a work schedule. MMM achieved FIRE before he had his kid. I’d don’t see FIRE as incompatible with children, nor the need to replicate the traditional retirements of people in their 60-70s but at a younger age.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: mtnman125 on February 26, 2019, 02:57:45 PM
We're not FIRE yet, but I'm planning to pull the plug when my daughter starts Kindergarten (wife will move to part time).  For us, this comes with a relocation to LCOL, so only possible once daycare expense is gone.

Ideally, it would give us the time to exercise, run errands, etc while kiddo is at school, so we can spend weekends doing fun family stuff.  Our weekends now are just too busy to really enjoy.

We also have family in the new location, so it would be reasonable for just my wife and I to take a trip for a few days while daughter stays with family.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Laura Ingalls on February 26, 2019, 07:47:35 PM
DH and I are both semi-retired and have two teenagers in public school.  The school calendar is still a big limitation.  My one experience leaving a kid home by himself overnight didn’t go so good.

I like life now and enjoy lots of free time and a low stress paid employment situation.  I am looking forward to a schedule of my own choosing. 
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: beekeeper on February 27, 2019, 06:27:56 AM
The school calendar is still a big limitation.

Thank you for pointing this out. I suppose that once the kids have started school we will have much more time but we will still be constrained for most of the year when it comes to travel. So best to focus on hobbies that can be enjoyed locally for a few hours at a time.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Jon Bon on February 27, 2019, 06:45:13 AM
Not as much as you think.

Kids can always miss a few days for a long weekend in grade school. Plus if you care about their education its pretty easy to keep them at the head of the class and a few days does not set them back at all. Second they have like a million days off. Teacher in service, 2 weeks for xmas and a week for spring  break. So yeah you cant jet off in a moments notice but its not a huge deal to miss school. What does become an issue and only if you let it is the damn little league arms race. Travel sports, obligations every weekend, long seasons, special trainers, teams, coaches etc.

My oldest is in kindergarten and the youngest is in preschool so we are close to fire with kids.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: beekeeper on February 27, 2019, 07:19:05 AM
Kids can always miss a few days for a long weekend in grade school.

I don't think that it is so relaxed here in Switzerland. I'm told that kids have a limit of four half-days off school per year and that this is strictly enforced from the first grade. I am happy that they take school seriously but this will be a pretty major constraint for us. Even taking Christmas Eve off to travel would take up half our annual quota...
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Catbert on February 27, 2019, 11:34:26 AM
I'll answer with the punch line to an old joke about "when life begins."  The answer to both is, when the kids move out and the dog dies.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Goldielocks on February 27, 2019, 01:48:15 PM
I FIRED / Semi FIRED 2 years ago.
Kids were aged 14 and 16 at the time.

I find that during the school year, I have a couple of days a week that look a lot like my retired (but active volunteer) parents.  During summer, it definitely looks like retirement with hiking on weekdays, and lots of home repair / errands/ upkeep on weekdays, my evenings and weekends are free for fun stuff, relaxing, MMM forums, etc.

One big difference (FIRE with kids) is that kids want to buy things and have experiences, and have sudden expenses.   I , as a parent, budget from my FIRE budget for some of these things, but then the unexpected , or truly "extra discretionary" happens -- I paid for extra driving lessons for my daughter as she kept failing her drive test / exam.  That was nearly $800.  My son's ski trip was unexpected and the other two large expenses / activities (sailing, summer camp) planned this year my son still wants to do.   I intentionally do not insure a second car, with my FIRE budget, but with two kids driving now, I am starting to re-consider it. DD wants contacts and would like help paying for them (I pay for glasses now).   DS may need extra tutoring or help.

I, the parent, then WANT to spend more money on my kids.

So I then start to accept the occasionally extra work contract, for spending money, here and there... am looking at hosting an exchange student (for pay), that sort of thing.

I will say that FIRE with kids is very busy, but a huge difference is the gain of Saturday and your weeknights for family time / relaxing.   I am not cleaning the house, grocery shopping, going to the dentist or bank appointments on these days anymore. 
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Hula Hoop on February 28, 2019, 03:18:39 AM
Kids can always miss a few days for a long weekend in grade school.

I don't think that it is so relaxed here in Switzerland. I'm told that kids have a limit of four half-days off school per year and that this is strictly enforced from the first grade. I am happy that they take school seriously but this will be a pretty major constraint for us. Even taking Christmas Eve off to travel would take up half our annual quota...

That's a shame.  Here in Italy, so far, our kids' teachers have been pretty relaxed about them missing school to visit family overseas.  The teachers say 'they'll learn a lot travelling overseas and it will also be good for their English".  The kids have each missed around 2 weeks of school each December since they've been in school and their teachers just gave them homework to make up the class time.  They are both good students, which probably makes a difference. They're in grades 2 and 5.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on February 28, 2019, 09:22:35 AM
The best aspect of FIRE with young kids is having the freedom to have one SAHP (stay at home parent) without losing out on anything.  Other than that, both parents being home is probably not a giant leap in happiness, unless both just hate their work.  I kept working after FI because I get to travel with my work and that's what I'd be doing anyways, only now it's not just paid for but I'm getting paid for it so I can travel even more once we are empty-nesters.  In fact, my FI number went up a little bit because I'm pretty much now only going to fly business (get the points upgrade on full fare economy) for long haul flights. Getting older sucks, time becomes even more valuable!
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Cassie on February 28, 2019, 09:36:49 AM
When the kids are gone:))  As teens you have to make sure they don't fall in with the wrong crowd, etc.  When kids are teens it's less physically exhausting but more mentally exhausting.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: historienne on February 28, 2019, 09:39:17 AM
I think this depends on your own personalities.  We have met our financial goal for my husband to retire (I really enjoy my work and intend to keep doing it indefinitely).  However, we have two young kids, one still in daycare.  My husband is not actually interested in being a full time SAHP, and we do not have enough money to pay for childcare without his salary.  At this point, he intends to keep working at least three more years, when both of our kids will be in public school full time.  We'll re-evaluate at that point, but he may keep working part time so that we can keep affording things like summer camp.  He's a great father who would love to spend an extra 10-20 hours/week with our kids...but not 45. 
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on February 28, 2019, 11:54:33 AM
I think this depends on your own personalities.  We have met our financial goal for my husband to retire (I really enjoy my work and intend to keep doing it indefinitely).  However, we have two young kids, one still in daycare.  My husband is not actually interested in being a full time SAHP, and we do not have enough money to pay for childcare without his salary.  At this point, he intends to keep working at least three more years, when both of our kids will be in public school full time.  We'll re-evaluate at that point, but he may keep working part time so that we can keep affording things like summer camp.  He's a great father who would love to spend an extra 10-20 hours/week with our kids...but not 45.

Geez, women spend 45 hours with their kids (and more) all the time, but for men it’s such a big sacrifice that someone would choose to not be there during those precious years of learning, when they could, cause their own kids just aren’t as engaging. And this is a good dad (which I’m not doubting). The bar for men is so low.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Jon Bon on February 28, 2019, 12:09:13 PM
I think this depends on your own personalities.  We have met our financial goal for my husband to retire (I really enjoy my work and intend to keep doing it indefinitely).  However, we have two young kids, one still in daycare.  My husband is not actually interested in being a full time SAHP, and we do not have enough money to pay for childcare without his salary.  At this point, he intends to keep working at least three more years, when both of our kids will be in public school full time.  We'll re-evaluate at that point, but he may keep working part time so that we can keep affording things like summer camp.  He's a great father who would love to spend an extra 10-20 hours/week with our kids...but not 45.

Geez, women spend 45 hours with their kids (and more) all the time, but for men it’s such a big sacrifice that someone would choose to not be there during those precious years of learning, when they could, cause their own kids just aren’t as engaging. And this is a good dad (which I’m not doubting). The bar for men is so low.

LOL it totally is. So funny and true story.

My spouse shows up with the kids and if everything is less than perfect she will get 'looks' from people. I show up with the kids by myself late, hair askew, in dirty clothes and all fighting with each other and people are like wow such a good dad.  This happens pretty regularly.  I get credit for the regular shit you are just suppose to do.

But yeah if you are not willing to be a SAHP with your kids at some point (because hey,  life happens) you should think long and hard about having them. Last I checked 45 hours is just over 2 days, what do you guys do for the other 5 days? Because sign me up for that!

Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on February 28, 2019, 01:49:47 PM
I don't see why you couldn't do all of the things you mentioned that your parents do once your kids are off to school?

This is partly what I am asking. My kids have not started school yet. Maybe the answer is that once they do then FIRE would create a lot of leisure time. I don't have the experience to know yet!

We have four kids, age 7, 5, 3, and 6 months. I am counting down the days until the youngest is in school :)

Just kidding. We obviously love kids, otherwise we wouldn't have four of them (we're done now, btw), but they get significantly easier when they are school-age. Our 5- and 7-year-old require much less supervision and correction that the 3-year-old. I won't likely be in a position to FIRE in the next 5 years, but I can imagine that one could live a pretty flexible lifestyle once the kids are away for 8 hours, 5 days a week.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: historienne on February 28, 2019, 02:42:57 PM
Geez, women spend 45 hours with their kids (and more) all the time, but for men it’s such a big sacrifice that someone would choose to not be there during those precious years of learning, when they could, cause their own kids just aren’t as engaging. And this is a good dad (which I’m not doubting). The bar for men is so low.

If you read the rest of what I wrote, you'll note that I plan to continue working indefinitely.  Of the two of us, my husband is the one who wants to spend more time with our kids.  That's true in terms of longterm career planning, and it's also true on a day to day basis; he does more than 50% of the hands-on parenting. 

But yeah if you are not willing to be a SAHP with your kids at some point (because hey,  life happens) you should think long and hard about having them. Last I checked 45 hours is just over 2 days, what do you guys do for the other 5 days? Because sign me up for that!
Please also read my post again.  I said that he doesn't want to spend 45 *extra* hours with our kids.  We are with our kids basically all the time except the 45 hours a week that we are at work and they are at daycare.  We see our kids quite a bit.  Neither of us want to be around our kids 24 hours/day.  The suggestion that people who don't want to be SAHPs shouldn't have kids is insulting and profoundly ignorant.

We're both introverts who wouldn't thrive as a full time stay-at-home-parents.  We could do it, and we would if necessary.  But it's not necessary, so we don't, because we don't feel an unhealthy obligation to martyr ourselves to live up to someone else's notion of what good parenting is. 

I'm confident that we're both great parents.  Part of what makes us good parents is having the emotional intelligence to recognize what works for the individual mix of personalities in our family.  In our case, that means sending our kids to a high-quality daycare, where they are happy and thriving.

I've got nothing against parents (of either gender) who choose to stay at home full time with their kids.  I trust that they are making the best choice for their family, and that they are in a better position to know what works for their family than any external observer.  I would ask that you extend me and my family the same courtesy.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Case on February 28, 2019, 02:48:05 PM
My parents are retired. They wake up each day and decide how many cups of tea to drink in bed before getting up for the day, whether to read a book or walk over to visit a friend, what to plan with friends in the evenings, what long vacations to arrange, whether to start a new creative project or not, and so on. They are very happy and content.

FIRE seems to be about enjoying this lifestyle from a younger age. How does that work when you have kids though? How old do they have to be before parents could live a FIRE lifestyle with any semblance to a traditional retirement? Is it once they start school, or once they are teenagers, or once they are grown up?

I am asking this in the context of how we would choose a target date to FIRE. I don't feel the attraction to FIRE at the moment because work is not an especially demanding dimension of my life compared with kids. I am wondering if other people have felt this way in the past and at what point that changed and FIRE started to represent leisure?

In almost all situations, a life with children has a lot more additional responsibility than life without them.  At the same time, you gain the bond of having a child, and all that. 

You can certainly have plenty of leisure if you FIRE with children.  But if you will never have as much leisure as if you didn't have leisure... at least until the kids are grown up (and don't require lifelong care).

Different people put different amounts of time/effort into raising children.  For some people, it is like having another full time job.  For other people, it is not that much effort (for example, may you have a spouse or nanny that cares for the children while you do less).  There are all sorts of possibilities in life.  However, unless you don't participate as much in raising/caring for the child, you simply wont have nearly as much free time.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: arebelspy on February 28, 2019, 09:24:04 PM
My parents are retired. They wake up each day and decide how many cups of tea to drink in bed before getting up for the day, whether to read a book or walk over to visit a friend, what to plan with friends in the evenings, what long vacations to arrange, whether to start a new creative project or not, and so on. They are very happy and content.

FIRE seems to be about enjoying this lifestyle from a younger age. How does that work when you have kids though? How old do they have to be before parents could live a FIRE lifestyle with any semblance to a traditional retirement? Is it once they start school, or once they are teenagers, or once they are grown up?

I am asking this in the context of how we would choose a target date to FIRE. I don't feel the attraction to FIRE at the moment because work is not an especially demanding dimension of my life compared with kids. I am wondering if other people have felt this way in the past and at what point that changed and FIRE started to represent leisure?

I don't even understand the question or it's relevance, or how it helps you, or what you intend to learn from this, or... anything about it.

Presumably you've decided to have kids either way, whether you're FIREing or not.

So it's a moot point what a FIRE'd life without them might look like, for you.

You have two options:
1) FIRE, with kids. Even if it doesn't look like "retirement" because there's a lot of childcare involved, which is a lot of work, or
2) Keep working.

FIRE with kids will feel like retirement with kids, because you aren't going to a job every day. Yes, you'll still have the kids, and all that entails. That is true whether you FIRE or not.

I'm 33. I've been FIRE'd for 3 1/2 years. I have a three year old and a one year old. My FIRE'd life doesn't look the same as someone who is 33 and FIRE'd and has no kids. Not even close.

But I made the choice to have kids, so why would I compare what my FIRE'd life looks like to theirs, or to someone who's 50+ and done with the kid-rearing phase, or whatever?

We specifically chose to wait to have kids until after FIRE, so we could both be there. It's a lot of work, and now our three year old attends a creative preschool three hours a day (9am-noon) on weekdays. And it's still a lot of work.

But we'd still prefer it to them being in childcare all day, and us working full time jobs, for sure.

Does it feel like the FIRE'd life of people without kids? Of course not. But as I started this post, I don't even understand why you'd ask about that comparison.

We wanted kids. And even though our FIRE'd life doesn't look like the childfree one, if done with the relevant comparison (to someone with two kids not yet FIRE'd), does it feel better than going to work every day? Totally! We'll never get back the years we sold for money, and we'd never get these years of our kids' lives back. That's important to us, and I just don't see how comparing to older retired folks is relevant at all.

(FWIW, having kids is hard. I tip my hat to SAHMs or SAHDs who do it on their own. I really struggle with childcare. My wife is amazing, and I really try to do my best.)
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Hula Hoop on March 01, 2019, 02:24:05 AM
I think this depends on your own personalities.  We have met our financial goal for my husband to retire (I really enjoy my work and intend to keep doing it indefinitely).  However, we have two young kids, one still in daycare.  My husband is not actually interested in being a full time SAHP, and we do not have enough money to pay for childcare without his salary.  At this point, he intends to keep working at least three more years, when both of our kids will be in public school full time.  We'll re-evaluate at that point, but he may keep working part time so that we can keep affording things like summer camp.  He's a great father who would love to spend an extra 10-20 hours/week with our kids...but not 45.

Geez, women spend 45 hours with their kids (and more) all the time, but for men it’s such a big sacrifice that someone would choose to not be there during those precious years of learning, when they could, cause their own kids just aren’t as engaging. And this is a good dad (which I’m not doubting). The bar for men is so low.

I agree that the bar for dads is often way lower that the one for mothers.  However, this is not a gender issue.  I'm a mom and can't imagine being a full time SAH mother to young kids or home schooling older kids.  I love spending time with my kids but 24/7 childcare to little kids would be really tough.  My hat is off to SAH parents of young kids.

MrThatsdifferent - from what I understand you don't have kids - sorry to be blunt but I think this is one of those things you can only understand once you are a parent.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: beekeeper on March 01, 2019, 03:17:40 AM
I don't even understand the question or it's relevance, or how it helps you, or what you intend to learn from this, or... anything about it.

The question is about how to choose a FIRE target date. I would like to understand the pros and cons of FIRE at different phases of life e.g. with babies, with preschoolers, with teenagers, with empty nest, etc. This will help me to think about when I should plan to FIRE myself.

Today I don't feel the urge to FIRE and I am wondering when this situation is likely to change. Maybe when the kids start school, for example. I don't know the answer yet but it is helpful to read about other people's experiences.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on March 01, 2019, 03:18:02 AM
I think this depends on your own personalities.  We have met our financial goal for my husband to retire (I really enjoy my work and intend to keep doing it indefinitely).  However, we have two young kids, one still in daycare.  My husband is not actually interested in being a full time SAHP, and we do not have enough money to pay for childcare without his salary.  At this point, he intends to keep working at least three more years, when both of our kids will be in public school full time.  We'll re-evaluate at that point, but he may keep working part time so that we can keep affording things like summer camp.  He's a great father who would love to spend an extra 10-20 hours/week with our kids...but not 45.

Geez, women spend 45 hours with their kids (and more) all the time, but for men it’s such a big sacrifice that someone would choose to not be there during those precious years of learning, when they could, cause their own kids just aren’t as engaging. And this is a good dad (which I’m not doubting). The bar for men is so low.

I agree that the bar for dads is often way lower that the one for mothers.  However, this is not a gender issue.  I'm a mom and can't imagine being a full time SAH mother to young kids or home schooling older kids.  I love spending time with my kids but 24/7 childcare to little kids would be really tough.  My hat is off to SAH parents of young kids.

MrThatsdifferent - from what I understand you don't have kids - sorry to be blunt but I think this is one of those things you can only understand once you are a parent.

Ahh geez Hula Hoop, yes, I forgot that only people with children can have any opinion about children, no matter what their experience has been with children. Unfortunately for you I’m entitled to whatever opinion I want to have, you have the option of giving it whatever value you deem necessary, but if you don’t mind internet stranger, I’m not letting you control my thoughts or sharing them to this forum. Cheers.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Metalcat on March 01, 2019, 04:51:58 AM
I don't even understand the question or it's relevance, or how it helps you, or what you intend to learn from this, or... anything about it.

The question is about how to choose a FIRE target date. I would like to understand the pros and cons of FIRE at different phases of life e.g. with babies, with preschoolers, with teenagers, with empty nest, etc. This will help me to think about when I should plan to FIRE myself.

Today I don't feel the urge to FIRE and I am wondering when this situation is likely to change. Maybe when the kids start school, for example. I don't know the answer yet but it is helpful to read about other people's experiences.

I think the point he's trying to make is the same point that I tried to make, that although having kids changes the dynamic of retirement, it really doesn't have that much impact on whether or not you should leave your job once you've reached your retirement savings goals.

Yeah, you don't get to live like a 65 year old retiree if you have young kids, but you do get to live like MMM if you want to and that's the whole point.

Figure out what you would ideally want to do with your days and do that. If that's continuing to work, then cool. If it isn't, then do something else.

The whole point of FIRE is that you can choose what your life looks like from a work perspective. How it looks from a child perspective is a whole other issue. I know some late 60s retirees who are now again raising kids because they got custody of their grandkids.

Does it seriously affect their leisure time? Of course.
Does it have any bearing on their status as retired? Not at all.

The leisure that you are envying actually has more to do with not having kids in the house than with not having a job. Jobs can be changed, done from home, worked part time, etc, etc. There are countless ways to sit in bed in the morning having coffee and contemplating what to do with the day.

Having kids??
Yeah, job or no job, you're getting up 7 days a week.

So yeah, your kids are going to cramp your leisure-retirement dreams, but that isn't tremendously related to the question of when you should finish at your current job...
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: arebelspy on March 01, 2019, 08:21:16 AM
I don't even understand the question or it's relevance, or how it helps you, or what you intend to learn from this, or... anything about it.

The question is about how to choose a FIRE target date. I would like to understand the pros and cons of FIRE at different phases of life e.g. with babies, with preschoolers, with teenagers, with empty nest, etc. This will help me to think about when I should plan to FIRE myself.

Today I don't feel the urge to FIRE and I am wondering when this situation is likely to change. Maybe when the kids start school, for example. I don't know the answer yet but it is helpful to read about other people's experiences.

Gotcha.

That clarification helps, thanks.

Quote
Today I don't feel the urge to FIRE

Okay, so... why would you?

Financial independence is so you have the option to live whatever life you want, without worrying about making money. If that is a life where you go to work every day, more power to you. If that's a life where you are home with kids, cool. You get to make that decision.

We can't tell you "Hey, you should FIRE when your youngest kid hit 8.756, because it's much easier at that point." because it all depends on you and your kids. What you like, what they are like, etc.

Essentially, this:
Figure out what you would ideally want to do with your days and do that.

My point was: You have the kids now. Presumably you aren't getting rid of them. So that's a done decision. So the question in the title/OP of "when does it feel like retirement" and comparing it to an older person's retirement isn't relevant.

Your personal relevant question is "Given the parameters in place in my life, how do I want to spend my days?"

When money doesn't matter, what do you want to do with your time? If work didn't pay you, would you still go in every day?

No need to compare with other alternate timelines. In this one, how do you want to spend your days?

:)
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on March 01, 2019, 01:05:23 PM
I’m a bit confused as well as the goal of FIRE is to retire from work, not your children. I guess if you equate FIRE to no other responsibilities to anyone or anything but myself then sure, lump being parents into that, but I don’t define FIRE as that. My plan (if it all works) will be one year of family leave (not really FIRE but kinda) and then probably 4 more years of working to get to full FIRE so that would be when the kid is 4-5. I wish I could be FIREd the whole time as I’d like to be around the early years as much as possible. If only I had discovered (and believed in) FIRE earlier in life. Oh well...
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: CanuckExpat on March 04, 2019, 09:58:30 PM
OP, I can sympathize and emphasize with your question. I have a four year old and an almost two year old, and I while I'm retired, it is almost always far from leisure. I think the question you are asking is would I want to be a stay at home parent, retired or not, and the answer may very well be no.

As to when it gets better, I can't answer directly, but I imagine it does when your children are of school age. We have had our oldest in close to full day child care on and off as possible, and it is dramatically better to only have to deal with one of them at a time at least.

You may also be making a false dichotomy. How are your finances? If you retired could you afford full or part time help: a nanny, au pair, baby sitter, etc?
That might give you the best of both worlds, it would have to be factored into your retirement budget.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Hula Hoop on March 05, 2019, 01:43:17 AM
My kids are 7 and 10 and I find, even at these ages, that staying home with them and certain activities that I enjoy are tough to do.  So we tend to get out of the house as much as possible on weekends and do kid friendly things that I wouldn't necessarily choose if I were on my own.  I imagine that if I FIREd without kids I'd probably spend a lot of time decompressing - reading, watching Netflix, going on long bike rides, going to museums.  With kids, it's hard to, for example, stay home all day reading or go to an art museum.  Bike riding is scary as the I'm constantly worried that crazy drivers will run into one of the kids.  Of course, if I were FIREd I could probably do these things while they are at school.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: beekeeper on March 05, 2019, 07:05:04 AM
You may also be making a false dichotomy. How are your finances? If you retired could you afford full or part time help: a nanny, au pair, baby sitter, etc?
That might give you the best of both worlds, it would have to be factored into your retirement budget.

This is an astute observation. Yes, if we were FIRE and had a nanny or au pair, then our lives might look a lot like traditional retirement. This possibility didn't even occur to me because childcare is so strongly linked with work in my imagination. Thank you for pointing this out!

Now it seems to me that if we did want to live a lifestyle similar to a traditional retirement we could do that today by relocating to a lower-cost location where we could afford childcare on a retired budget. I imagine that we will stick where we are and FIRE some time when the kids are older but I now see this framed as a choice we can consciously make.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ender on March 05, 2019, 07:09:10 AM
The school calendar is still a big limitation.

Thank you for pointing this out. I suppose that once the kids have started school we will have much more time but we will still be constrained for most of the year when it comes to travel. So best to focus on hobbies that can be enjoyed locally for a few hours at a time.

My wife and I have talked at length about homeschooling partially because of this reason.

Especially due to the flexibility if we are actually FIRE (if I FIRE at 40, oldest will be ~10). It seems this combination could be really great for a meaningful interaction with kids. 
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: arebelspy on March 05, 2019, 07:51:09 AM
I think the question you are asking is would I want to be a stay at home parent, retired or not, and the answer may very well be no.

For me the answer certainly is no.

We have our three year old go to preschool 3 hours a day (9-noon M-F), and my wife takes them quite a bit, so while I do a lot of childcare, it's not full time, with two of them. I'd 100% rather go back to work than do that (I liked my job quite a bit!).

The wife would much rather be a SAHM than go back to work. She loves being home and playing with the kids.

These are things that may be hard to know before FIRE. (We didn't even have our first kid until after FIRE, so no way to know. I always thought I'd want to be SAH, until I tried it.)

The idea of planning for an au pair or other help (especially during pre-school years) and putting that in your FIRE budget is a good one.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: I'm a red panda on March 05, 2019, 07:52:11 AM
I think it is a mistake to equate FIRE with traditional retirement, if you have kids.

What would traditional retirement look like if a 65 year old adopted a toddler? That's what your FIRE will look like.  It's being a SAHP without the stress of "do we have enough income".

FIRE doesn't mean leisure time if you have the responsibility of raising children. It does mean much more flexibility about what you and the kids can do all day.

Me, personally, I am more concerned with remaining FI. I'm not interested in the RE aspect.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Cassie on March 05, 2019, 09:06:17 AM
I enjoyed being a SAHM until the youngest was in school all day and then I was very glad to rejoin the world:)).   Some people find they hate it. We are all different. Once my kids were 3 I sent them to nursery school which was 3 days a week for 2 hours. They loved it.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on March 05, 2019, 10:33:37 AM
I enjoyed being a SAHM until the youngest was in school all day and then I was very glad to rejoin the world:)).   Some people find they hate it. We are all different. Once my kids were 3 I sent them to nursery school which was 3 days a week for 2 hours. They loved it.

Yep, SAH parenting all depends on the parent. My wife did it for 5 years and loved it. She now works half-time to get health insurance benefits, and while she enjoys her work, she misses being home with the 3-year-old and 6-month-old. Me? I used to be jealous of my wife when I was working full-time and she was home with just one child. Now that we have 4 kids, I'd much rather be working than staying home with them 5 days a week. Too much chaos for me. I love my kids, but weekends and evenings are plenty :)
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ysette9 on March 05, 2019, 11:12:17 AM
I love my kid, but someone else put it really nicely above. We are both introverts and so need quiet time to ourselves to recharge. With my 4.5 year-old there is no such thing as time when she isn’t talking. My 1.5 year-old would love desperately to talk and babbles a lot, and in the interim wants mummy mummy mummy mummy!!!! It is exhausting.

If we were both FIRE then it would be a long weekend, made even better when school starts and we will get some quiet time just the two of us. If just one of us quit, that person would probably go looney toons.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: historienne on March 05, 2019, 11:57:33 AM
I think the question you are asking is would I want to be a stay at home parent, retired or not, and the answer may very well be no.

For me the answer certainly is no.

We have our three year old go to preschool 3 hours a day (9-noon M-F), and my wife takes them quite a bit, so while I do a lot of childcare, it's not full time, with two of them. I'd 100% rather go back to work than do that (I liked my job quite a bit!).

The wife would much rather be a SAHM than go back to work. She loves being home and playing with the kids.

Both my husband and I feel like you...hence, we've opted to continue working until our kids are both in elementary school. 

Staying at home full time with kids is great for some people, but it's also a lot of work.  There's no shame (or shouldn't be) in deciding that it's not your ideal life.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: arebelspy on March 05, 2019, 12:48:43 PM
I think the question you are asking is would I want to be a stay at home parent, retired or not, and the answer may very well be no.

For me the answer certainly is no.

We have our three year old go to preschool 3 hours a day (9-noon M-F), and my wife takes them quite a bit, so while I do a lot of childcare, it's not full time, with two of them. I'd 100% rather go back to work than do that (I liked my job quite a bit!).

The wife would much rather be a SAHM than go back to work. She loves being home and playing with the kids.

Both my husband and I feel like you...hence, we've opted to continue working until our kids are both in elementary school. 

Staying at home full time with kids is great for some people, but it's also a lot of work.  There's no shame (or shouldn't be) in deciding that it's not your ideal life.

Agreed.

But again, doesn't mean you have to work, unless money is a limiting factor.

Wherever your kids are now, while you both are at work, they could still be. Doesn't mean you have to be at work.

I think it is a mistake to equate FIRE with traditional retirement, if you have kids.

What would traditional retirement look like if a 65 year old adopted a toddler? That's what your FIRE will look like.

Hah. Good point.

Quote
It's being a SAHP without the stress of "do we have enough income"

To this point, two quotes from my Evernote Good Quotes folder:
"Money doesn't solve all your problems, but it does solve all your money problems."
"Money makes life easier, it doesn't make life better."
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: wordnerd on March 05, 2019, 01:34:12 PM
I'm in a similar situation to ARS. Both my husband and I are FIREd. We have a 3 y.o. and a 10 month-old. For [reasons], I do the bulk of the childcare. And, yeah, I do feel more like a SAHM than a globe-trotting single FIREe because, well, I'm a mom who stays home.

Currently, I prefer this to working full-time with two kids in childcare. Why?
1) I worked full-time with one kid in childcare, and it was way harder. No sleeping in if the baby slept in. Long commute, made longer, by a detour to a good daycare. PUMPING (OMG, don't get me started on pumping). Being on my Blackberry from 5-7pm (the hours I saw my kid while he was awake.
2) I like momming. Hitting up children's museums, going on hikes, watching my 3 y.o. turn himself upside-down to be an exclamation mark. It's good stuff. We may choose part-time preschool at some point, but I really like how things are right now.
3) I have mental/emotional bandwidth for my hobbies (writing mostly), which I didn't have with my job.
4) I got to move back to the West Coast rather than staying in GA, which I really didn't like.

FTR, I never thought I would want to be a SAHM. But it 's really something you can't know if you don't try it. So, totally a personal decision based on your job, your feelings toward childcare, your feelings about the other limitations a job puts on your life.

To your question, do I feel retired? I don't use that word because I'm 31. But, yeah, I do. I'm relaxed. I'm in control of my time (with some limitations regarding nap times :) ). My brain is free to roam wherever the hell it pleases during the day rather than being forced ruminate on the inanities of being management in a large organization. I don't sit in pointless meetings. I don't waste hours a day in my car. In fact, I very rarely spend time wishing I was somewhere else.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Case on March 05, 2019, 01:54:28 PM
I think the question you are asking is would I want to be a stay at home parent, retired or not, and the answer may very well be no.

For me the answer certainly is no.

We have our three year old go to preschool 3 hours a day (9-noon M-F), and my wife takes them quite a bit, so while I do a lot of childcare, it's not full time, with two of them. I'd 100% rather go back to work than do that (I liked my job quite a bit!).

The wife would much rather be a SAHM than go back to work. She loves being home and playing with the kids.

Both my husband and I feel like you...hence, we've opted to continue working until our kids are both in elementary school. 

Staying at home full time with kids is great for some people, but it's also a lot of work.  There's no shame (or shouldn't be) in deciding that it's not your ideal life.

All of these thoughts remind me of what I was thinking when I was heavily debating having children.  I kept trying to think of ways to minimize the actual amount of time I was going to spend being a parent, and maximize the amount of time on things like hiking, traveling, relaxing, exercising, etc...  In the end, I ended up thinking to myself, "you know, if you're panicking so much at the loss of your freedoms, and trying to find ways to bend the 'rules' so that you can have children and still have all those freedoms, maybe you're not the best candidate for being a parent".  If you FIRE, and then use money to put your child in daycare all day, or get an au pair (per @arebelspy comment), is choosing to be a parent a good choice?  I'm not condemning, or stating the answer; rather, I'm stating it's a conversation worth having within the FIRE community, as well as personally (and with your partner).

This thread has made me think about that all again.  I imagine there is a different answer for everyone.

The main things you can't (or rather shouldn't) do with children are abandon them for long lengths of time (maybe >1-2 weeks?).  For me, this nixes the possibility of significant travel, or backpacking trips.  These have been things I really don't want to give up.  But, most other things are feasible once the child goes to school.  Of course, you will always have far less free time if you have children.  But then again, as Arebelspy pointed out, you can use money to hire people to handle the work for you.  And you do gain chunks of that time back as the child grows up, though no real freedom until college.

It's a fuzzy line between right and wrong, and money acts as the vehicle to enable.  And of course, it's a grey area; it could be argued that parents with more going on in their life can be better parents to some degree (but obviously there is a point where it becomes malproductive.  Cue the classic cases of parents that pay more attention to their job than their children).  And some activities can be enhanced with a child... and some activities are made miserable with a child.

I spent a lot of brain power trying to 'hack' the prospect of parenthood and adventure in mid-life... ultimately deciding it wasn't fair to the child and that it ultimately meant I didn't want children in the same way other parents did.  But, there are some aspects of parenthood I still find appealing.  It's an interesting topic, for sure.  And one that tends to illicit emotionally intense arguments.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: arebelspy on March 05, 2019, 01:59:44 PM
I think the question you are asking is would I want to be a stay at home parent, retired or not, and the answer may very well be no.

For me the answer certainly is no.

We have our three year old go to preschool 3 hours a day (9-noon M-F), and my wife takes them quite a bit, so while I do a lot of childcare, it's not full time, with two of them. I'd 100% rather go back to work than do that (I liked my job quite a bit!).

The wife would much rather be a SAHM than go back to work. She loves being home and playing with the kids.

Both my husband and I feel like you...hence, we've opted to continue working until our kids are both in elementary school. 

Staying at home full time with kids is great for some people, but it's also a lot of work.  There's no shame (or shouldn't be) in deciding that it's not your ideal life.

All of these thoughts remind me of what I was thinking when I was heavily debating having children.  I kept trying to think of ways to minimize the actual amount of time I was going to spend being a parent, and maximize the amount of time on things like hiking, traveling, relaxing, exercising, etc...  In the end, I ended up thinking to myself, "you know, if you're panicking so much at the loss of your freedoms, and trying to find ways to bend the 'rules' so that you can have children and still have all those freedoms, maybe you're not the best candidate for being a parent".  If you FIRE, and then use money to put your child in daycare all day, or get an au pair (per @arebelspy comment), is choosing to be a parent a good choice?  I'm not condemning, or stating the answer; rather, I'm stating it's a conversation worth having within the FIRE community, as well as personally (and with your partner).

This thread has made me think about that all again.  I imagine there is a different answer for everyone.

The main things you can't (or rather shouldn't) do with children are abandon them for long lengths of time (maybe >1-2 weeks?).  For me, this nixes the possibility of significant travel, or backpacking trips.  These have been things I really don't want to give up.  But, most other things are feasible once the child goes to school.  Of course, you will always have far less free time if you have children.  But then again, as Arebelspy pointed out, you can use money to hire people to handle the work for you.  And you do gain chunks of that time back as the child grows up, though no real freedom until college.

It's a fuzzy line between right and wrong, and money acts as the vehicle to enable.  And of course, it's a grey area; it could be argued that parents with more going on in their life can be better parents to some degree (but obviously there is a point where it becomes malproductive.  Cue the classic cases of parents that pay more attention to their job than their children).  And some activities can be enhanced with a child... and some activities are made miserable with a child.

I spent a lot of brain power trying to 'hack' the prospect of parenthood and adventure in mid-life... ultimately deciding it wasn't fair to the child and that it ultimately meant I didn't want children in the same way other parents did.  But, there are some aspects of parenthood I still find appealing.  It's an interesting topic, for sure.  And one that tends to illicit emotionally intense arguments.

I think the final sentence of the post you quoted is relevant. I bolded it.

I don't see why a parent who is FIRE'd when their kids are young and sends them to daycare for a break is any worse of a parent than one who is working and sends them to daycare, or a parent who opts for public schooling over homeschooling even if they're qualified to teach the kid at home.

If you love your child and do your best for them, that's good enough for me. Even if that means you need a break from them sometimes.

:)
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: cats on March 05, 2019, 04:26:31 PM
Most  SAHPs I know send their kids to preschool of some kind once the kid is 2.5 or so if finances permit.  Maybe not full-time, but at least a few mornings a week.  Yes, it's good for the kids, but they're also pretty open that it's to give themselves a break.  I think the parent who enjoys being a SAHP for ALL 40-45 hours of the week they would otherwise be working is extremely rare.  I really don't see the point of knocking any parent who says they need a bit of alone/adult time during the week to recharge away from their kids.  It's totally normal and I suspect historically something that most mothers would have had by virtue of living near parents or other extended family.

And yeah, if you haven't had a baby or been substantially responsible for raising someone else's baby in the first few years of life, I do think it's reasonable to say you probably don't really understand the work that's involved.  Having a kid that young requires you to be "on" the entire time they are awake.  Everything you do for yourself that your probably take for granted (getting dressed, using the bathroom, making a sandwich and eating it), you have to do for them or help them to do.  They have limited vocabulary and ability to communicate with you.  Kids are extremely rewarding but they are waaaaaaay more work than I think most non-parents really appreciate.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Cassie on March 05, 2019, 05:13:09 PM
Preschool is good for kids and parents.  Most kids look forward to it.  Now sending your kids to full time daycare if you are home seems odd to me.  But everyone gets to make their own decisions.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Hula Hoop on March 06, 2019, 06:11:41 AM
And yeah, if you haven't had a baby or been substantially responsible for raising someone else's baby in the first few years of life, I do think it's reasonable to say you probably don't really understand the work that's involved.  Having a kid that young requires you to be "on" the entire time they are awake.  Everything you do for yourself that your probably take for granted (getting dressed, using the bathroom, making a sandwich and eating it), you have to do for them or help them to do.  They have limited vocabulary and ability to communicate with you.  Kids are extremely rewarding but they are waaaaaaay more work than I think most non-parents really appreciate.

Yes, this.  Before having kids myself, I thought I knew all about raising them due to the fact that I have a much younger sibling who I was largely responsible for as a teen and also tons of past babysitting experience.  Little did I know!
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Goldielocks on March 06, 2019, 09:15:50 AM
I love my kid, but someone else put it really nicely above. We are both introverts and so need quiet time to ourselves to recharge. With my 4.5 year-old there is no such thing as time when she isn’t talking. My 1.5 year-old would love desperately to talk and babbles a lot, and in the interim wants mummy mummy mummy mummy!!!! It is exhausting.

If we were both FIRE then it would be a long weekend, made even better when school starts and we will get some quiet time just the two of us. If just one of us quit, that person would probably go looney toons.
Even with other partner, or paid care, 1.5 year olds are exhausting, no matter what.   
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: historienne on March 06, 2019, 01:34:54 PM
In the end, I ended up thinking to myself, "you know, if you're panicking so much at the loss of your freedoms, and trying to find ways to bend the 'rules' so that you can have children and still have all those freedoms, maybe you're not the best candidate for being a parent".  If you FIRE, and then use money to put your child in daycare all day, or get an au pair (per @arebelspy comment), is choosing to be a parent a good choice?  I'm not condemning, or stating the answer; rather, I'm stating it's a conversation worth having within the FIRE community, as well as personally (and with your partner).

...

It's a fuzzy line between right and wrong, and money acts as the vehicle to enable.  And of course, it's a grey area; it could be argued that parents with more going on in their life can be better parents to some degree (but obviously there is a point where it becomes malproductive.  Cue the classic cases of parents that pay more attention to their job than their children).  And some activities can be enhanced with a child... and some activities are made miserable with a child.

There are two basic reasons not to have kids: it will make you less happy, and you wouldn't be a good parent.  I will stand as evidence that's entirely possible for kids to make you happier, even if you don't want to be a stay at home parent.  I love my kids a lot!  They provide boundless joy!  They definitely contribute positively to my wellbeing!  They are definitely worth the sacrifices of free time and sleep. Obviously there are people who are happiest not having kids at all. There are also people who are happiest having kids, but also having a good chunk of time each week away from them.

So to the other possibility, that it's bad for kids to be born to a parent who doesn't want to stay at home full time.  Luckily, there are loads of studies showing that high quality daycare settings are neutral-to-good for kids.  This shouldn't be remotely surprising.  The model of full-time care by a parent in the nuclear family home is actually pretty unusual as a way to organize childrearing, if we look across historical and cultural contexts.  Most cultures have relied heavily on non-parental figures to do a good chunk of the work of childrearing.  This takes a wide variety of forms, including shared childrearing among mothers with similarly aged children, childrearing by grandparents, and often significant labor from older siblings (sometimes starting at what are, to contemporary US sensibilities, shockingly young ages). 

Kids need strong attachments to consistent caregivers.  That is entirely compatible with spending 40-45 hours/week in a high-quality daycare, or with a nanny or babysitter.  My kids have strong and secure attachments to both me and my husband, and they also spend lots of time with other loving and competent adults.  They have good lives.  Not perfect, but the imperfections are in no way a result of the fact that they are in daycare. 

Look, I have to admit that it's pretty enraging to have someone tell me that they think I'm "not the best candidate for being a parent."  You are suggesting that I'm harming the people I care most about in this world, based on some pretty uninformed assumptions. 
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ysette9 on March 06, 2019, 02:40:01 PM
I’m impressed with your restraint in your response, @historienne
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Metalcat on March 06, 2019, 03:00:26 PM
I’m impressed with your restraint in your response, @historienne

Me too!

Maybe some people are much better parents overall if their kids are in daycare for the day?

Not everyone is good at coping with toddlers for long, uninterrupted hours. I know I wouldn't be. There are no medals for making parenting harder.

I've found some parent friends who handled the small child years with ease, really struggled with the teen years because it's a totally different skill set. I've also seen some parents who really struggled with the baby and toddler years find their groove at around age 6 when their kid got more independent. I've also seen some wooooonderful, loving childhood parents who breezed through toddler, childhood and teen years become estranged from their adult children over conflicts with their children in law. Parenting provides a rich and luxurious lifelong tapestry of opportunities to struggle.

I've also had A LOT of mothers of young children openly talk to me about thoughts of suicide, despite seeming totally satisfied with their decision to have kids and even contemplating having more.
Let's not forget that researchers have described parenting as so traumatic that it's been demonstrated to be worse for your mental health than the death of a spouse...ouch.

So yeah, if someone picks daycare over day drinking, then good on them!

Besides, plenty of deeply dedicated parents fuck their children up right proper, and some of the best people I know had suboptimal parenting situations, so lets not presume that vigorous dedication is some kind of predictor of success.

Someone might not be great with toddlers, force themselves to be a stay at home parent despite suffering from it because they feel guilty otherwise, and then fuck up their child far worse because their kid is constantly exposed to their parent in a less ideal mental state. They might have been a rockstar parent every evening if they had some kid-free, work-free time during the day to bolster their mental state.
Maybe? It's certainly possible.

But hey, isn't feeling guilty allllll the time what parenting is all about?
At least that's how it seems to me from my child free vantage point.

Either way, I respect parenting enough not to judge.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ysette9 on March 06, 2019, 03:11:16 PM
We used to be more judgement of parents for things like doing nap time in the car on the freeway or eating junk food or screen time or whatever. Then we had a kid and realized how f-int hard it is, and how a lot of the time the kid behaves how the kid will behave despite parenting. I may still secretly judge inside my heart but I am much more forgiving now that I’ve walked the walk. I also am less likely to self congratulate when my kid does something great.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Cassie on March 06, 2019, 04:15:59 PM
Most people love their kids more than life itself.  Some people would go crazy if they had to stay home.  Kids are not harmed by decent daycare.  Like most things in life one size doesn’t fit all.  My parents were very careful not to overstep with advice once we were adults and we are doing the same. I enjoy my relationship with my kids and step kids.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: RyanAtTanagra on March 07, 2019, 10:02:10 AM
I’m impressed with your restraint in your response, @historienne

Me too!

Interesting, I didn't interpret Case's post at all as a judgement on others for how they parent, but as a comment about how it's ok to selfishly not have kids, and that this is a discussion that should be had.  Because for most people, parenting is a foregone conclusion, and deciding to not have kids is looked upon as suspicion.  People ask 'why don't you want kids?' way more often than they would ask 'why DO you want kids?', which is probably a much more important question to consider.  For a lot of people, not having kids would be too far outside the box of accepted social norms, especially with a lot of family cultures.  This alternative does need to be more of an active conversation.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: BeanCounter on March 07, 2019, 10:31:48 AM
I believe in the oxygen mask theory for parenting, i.e.- take care of yourself first. And because of that I have chosen to keep working full time so that I could pay for daycare for my children. Ideally I would have loved part time daycare with a part time job but it was pretty impossible to find something that made financial sense. Anyway, I love them and I love being with them. But being home full time with a baby and/or toddler was way more than this introvert could handle. Working full time allowed us to afford really quality care.
We are now in the elementary years with out two and I'll say that working full time has become more difficult. And I have a pretty flexible job and can work from home if I need to. The school calendar is tough. There are always random days off. Long breaks for every holiday. When they get sick it's never at the same time, it's one after the other. Last year my husband and split nearly two full weeks at home while the flu ran through the house. They get out at 3pm in the afternoon and then have sports or band or scouts. We have found an excellent nanny for 3-6pm and that helps but when she graduates college we'll have to find someone else. Summer is always difficult. We split the summer between staying home with the nanny so they can play with neighborhood friends and go to the pool etc, and a few weeks of camp. But I always feel like I'm missing out. The nanny has to navigate various friends and social stuff for them. It just feels way harder than when they were little.
So now that my oldest is hitting middle school I'm planning to pull the plug and stay home. And thankfully because I kept working we are FI. I feel like middle school kids no longer want a babysitter, they have lots of social stuff that they need a parent to help them navigate. They need a driver all the time. They need a listening ear and more guidance than a college kid can offer. We've had great people but I think they need mom now.
I think there is lots of ways to do this parenting thing. YMMV.


Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: historienne on March 07, 2019, 10:36:41 AM
We are now in the elementary years with out two and I'll say that working full time has become more difficult. And I have a pretty flexible job and can work from home if I need to. The school calendar is tough. There are always random days off. Long breaks for every holiday. When they get sick it's never at the same time, it's one after the other. Last year my husband and split nearly two full weeks at home while the flu ran through the house. They get out at 3pm in the afternoon and then have sports or band or scouts. We have found an excellent nanny for 3-6pm and that helps but when she graduates college we'll have to find someone else. Summer is always difficult. We split the summer between staying home with the nanny so they can play with neighborhood friends and go to the pool etc, and a few weeks of camp. But I always feel like I'm missing out. The nanny has to navigate various friends and social stuff for them. It just feels way harder than when they were little.
So now that my oldest is hitting middle school I'm planning to pull the plug and stay home. And thankfully because I kept working we are FI. I feel like middle school kids no longer want a babysitter, they have lots of social stuff that they need a parent to help them navigate. They need a driver all the time. They need a listening ear and more guidance than a college kid can offer. We've had great people but I think they need mom now.

This is all exactly why my husband is planning to retire and/or scale way back once our kids are in elementary school. 
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ysette9 on March 07, 2019, 10:37:46 AM
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: BeanCounter on March 07, 2019, 10:44:29 AM
We are now in the elementary years with out two and I'll say that working full time has become more difficult. And I have a pretty flexible job and can work from home if I need to. The school calendar is tough. There are always random days off. Long breaks for every holiday. When they get sick it's never at the same time, it's one after the other. Last year my husband and split nearly two full weeks at home while the flu ran through the house. They get out at 3pm in the afternoon and then have sports or band or scouts. We have found an excellent nanny for 3-6pm and that helps but when she graduates college we'll have to find someone else. Summer is always difficult. We split the summer between staying home with the nanny so they can play with neighborhood friends and go to the pool etc, and a few weeks of camp. But I always feel like I'm missing out. The nanny has to navigate various friends and social stuff for them. It just feels way harder than when they were little.
So now that my oldest is hitting middle school I'm planning to pull the plug and stay home. And thankfully because I kept working we are FI. I feel like middle school kids no longer want a babysitter, they have lots of social stuff that they need a parent to help them navigate. They need a driver all the time. They need a listening ear and more guidance than a college kid can offer. We've had great people but I think they need mom now.

This is all exactly why my husband is planning to retire and/or scale way back once our kids are in elementary school.
That's awesome! I tell all the young people I know now to wait and see. If you can find good care and are happy working then keep doing it and then become a SAHP. So many people say that they you should "stay home while they are little" but I think there are many downsides that that are overlooked.

I've got one more school year before I'm done. So we'll see, but I'm really hoping that it WILL feel like FIRE to me because I won't have to juggle a million schedules at once. Like a snow day pops up on the same day as a big board meeting. That stuff causes me so much stress! Daycare was open all the time!! My infant nanny came in no matter what!! But two snow flakes and they close school.
And I think my experience and my career is to the point that I can pick up some freelance bookkeeping or tax work to feel like I'm keeping my brain busy.
It's a big risk because I'm likely at the apex of my career, but I think I'm ready and the kids need me.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: BeanCounter on March 07, 2019, 10:50:26 AM
I FIRED / Semi FIRED 2 years ago.
Kids were aged 14 and 16 at the time.

I find that during the school year, I have a couple of days a week that look a lot like my retired (but active volunteer) parents.  During summer, it definitely looks like retirement with hiking on weekdays, and lots of home repair / errands/ upkeep on weekdays, my evenings and weekends are free for fun stuff, relaxing, MMM forums, etc.

One big difference (FIRE with kids) is that kids want to buy things and have experiences, and have sudden expenses.   I , as a parent, budget from my FIRE budget for some of these things, but then the unexpected , or truly "extra discretionary" happens -- I paid for extra driving lessons for my daughter as she kept failing her drive test / exam.  That was nearly $800.  My son's ski trip was unexpected and the other two large expenses / activities (sailing, summer camp) planned this year my son still wants to do.   I intentionally do not insure a second car, with my FIRE budget, but with two kids driving now, I am starting to re-consider it. DD wants contacts and would like help paying for them (I pay for glasses now).   DS may need extra tutoring or help.

I, the parent, then WANT to spend more money on my kids.

So I then start to accept the occasionally extra work contract, for spending money, here and there... am looking at hosting an exchange student (for pay), that sort of thing.

I will say that FIRE with kids is very busy, but a huge difference is the gain of Saturday and your weeknights for family time / relaxing.   I am not cleaning the house, grocery shopping, going to the dentist or bank appointments on these days anymore.

+1 to this as well. As the kids have gotten older, they have become more expensive. And I WANT them to have those experiences. I WANT to pay for college for them. And this is the reason (and insurance) that my husband is going to keep working. We're too scared to fully RE while we are responsible for other humans. That and he strongly feels that it is a good example to them. I don't necessarily agree with that, but that's how he feels. He also has a job with lots of time off so that helps us still be able to travel during breaks and in the summer.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on March 07, 2019, 11:21:22 AM
I’m impressed with your restraint in your response, @historienne

Me too!

Interesting, I didn't interpret Case's post at all as a judgement on others for how they parent, but as a comment about how it's ok to selfishly not have kids, and that this is a discussion that should be had.  Because for most people, parenting is a foregone conclusion, and deciding to not have kids is looked upon as suspicion.  People ask 'why don't you want kids?' way more often than they would ask 'why DO you want kids?', which is probably a much more important question to consider.  For a lot of people, not having kids would be too far outside the box of accepted social norms, especially with a lot of family cultures.  This alternative does need to be more of an active conversation.

Yeah, I didn’t read it as judgement either. Case shared that in deciding whether kids were right for her she realized her plan was to outsource as much as possible so she could have more time to herself and if that was her thinking, maybe time for herself was more important? That seems fair and responsible. I wish more people thought longer and harder about having kids, maybe there would be less abuse and neglect of children?

I’m in a situation where I will have to have support and help so outsourcing some will be necessary. I’m ok with that although at this stage (don’t have the kid yet) I’m more concerned about missing moments: first steps, words and the like. I don’t want to miss anything! This might all change if I’m exhausted and need Daddy time, who knows? I do know lots of people are natural parents and it shows and they struggle, some legitimately love it and it shows as well. Still neither path doesn’t necessarily determine the kid.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: BeanCounter on March 07, 2019, 11:31:16 AM
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?

I would say largely because they are underfunded. Yet my kids are in private school and the schedule is no better. It seems that it's just accepted because that's the way it's always been.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Jon Bon on March 07, 2019, 12:02:42 PM
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?

Because schools/teachers/admin want summers off and want to be done with work by 3pm?

What is so terrible about a longer school day/school year? I am no expert but it feels like pretty low hanging fruit.



Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ysette9 on March 07, 2019, 12:03:49 PM
It feels like a scam to me to get parents to pay for 1/3 of the school day via an “after school” program that is still school and still located at school.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Jon Bon on March 07, 2019, 12:12:19 PM
It feels like a scam to me to get parents to pay for 1/3 of the school day via an “after school” program that is still school and still located at school.

LOL, yeah that too.

Don't forget about half day/full day kindergarten. So you get to pay for full day kindergarten AND before/after school 'care'

Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: EscapeVelocity2020 on March 07, 2019, 01:25:33 PM
This is all exactly why my husband is planning to retire and/or scale way back once our kids are in elementary school.

Should point out, 'retirement' to stay at home with young children is what people used to call being a stay at home parent.  I think the whole premise of this thread, that feeling retired while being a full time parent is mutually incompatible.  My wife stopped work at our second child and she is still as busy as ever.  Our kids are 13 and 15, but it is just a different kind of busy than the stages that came prior.  Up until the day they leave for college and/or become independent, parenting is equivalent to a 'job' that you don't fully dictate the terms of.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ysette9 on March 07, 2019, 01:37:25 PM
My expectation and hope is that it will be different with both parents retired. Share the burden, have adult time together when littles are at school. That sounds way more fun to me than being a SAHP with the other parent working.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Mississippi Mudstache on March 07, 2019, 02:07:55 PM
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?

Because schools/teachers/admin want summers off and want to be done with work by 3pm?

What is so terrible about a longer school day/school year? I am no expert but it feels like pretty low hanging fruit.

WTF? You think teachers are "done with work" by 3 PM? When my wife was in the classroom, she had to be at work by 7:15 and didn't get off until after bus duty, which ran from 4:30 - 5 PM. She worked a longer day than I did while trying to manage a classroom full of 5-year-olds, yet I got paid 5x as much for sitting in front a computer all day. If teachers didn't get summers off, there'd be no fucking teachers. It's literally the only thing that makes it a halfway acceptable work arrangement.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ysette9 on March 07, 2019, 03:45:07 PM
So then we need to work on solutions to make the job better for teachers and make school compatible with work for the majority of families out there that have two parents in the workforce. It is an incredible lost opportunity economically for a county to have millions of people reducing or eliminating participation in the labor force because we as a society have arcane school schedules that no longer align with reality. Kids don’t need to be out of school to help with the harvest in the summer but working adults do need to be at their jobs. Time to face up to reality.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: cats on March 07, 2019, 03:58:42 PM
So then we need to work on solutions to make the job better for teachers and make school compatible with work for the majority of families out there that have two parents in the workforce. It is an incredible lost opportunity economically for a county to have millions of people reducing or eliminating participation in the labor force because we as a society have arcane school schedules that no longer align with reality. Kids don’t need to be out of school to help with the harvest in the summer but working adults do need to be at their jobs. Time to face up to reality.

My preference would be for employers to consider whether or not all workers really need to be present 40+ hours/week.  In my case, my job is largely mental.  By 2-3pm, I'm past my most productive time of day, but I have to stick around for the rest of the work day if I don't want to get fired.  In terms of personal productivity, I would much rather be allowed to get out at 2:30 or 3pm every day with the expectation of putting a bit more effort into my morning and early afternoon hours (i.e., no MMM forum breaks, etc.).  The amount of time many office workers spend faffing around can be pretty incredible, but I think quite a few people would give all/most of that faffing up if the alternative was to spending less time at the office each day.  My son isn't kindergarten age yet, but a slightly shorter daycare day would probably be pretty good for him also, as it seems daycare can get more and more chaotic in the late afternoon/early evening hours.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Jon Bon on March 08, 2019, 08:15:21 AM
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?

Because schools/teachers/admin want summers off and want to be done with work by 3pm?

What is so terrible about a longer school day/school year? I am no expert but it feels like pretty low hanging fruit.

WTF? You think teachers are "done with work" by 3 PM? When my wife was in the classroom, she had to be at work by 7:15 and didn't get off until after bus duty, which ran from 4:30 - 5 PM. She worked a longer day than I did while trying to manage a classroom full of 5-year-olds, yet I got paid 5x as much for sitting in front a computer all day. If teachers didn't get summers off, there'd be no fucking teachers. It's literally the only thing that makes it a halfway acceptable work arrangement.

They are most definitely done teaching students by 3pm. Therefore the parents get to be tagged in despite still being during the work day.

I want the "business" to respond to the "customer" I (the customer) want better test scores and a longer school day/year. In any industry the business would respond to what the customer wanted. Unfortunately we are dealing with government and unions two things that are not great at adapting to change.

No one else gets summers off and still gets paid, I think the market would quickly adjust. Our school system structure is stuck in the what 1950's? I think we can all agree its time to modernize some of it.



Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: I'm a red panda on March 08, 2019, 08:26:34 AM
Why why why do schools in the US make it so damn hard on families?

Because schools/teachers/admin want summers off and want to be done with work by 3pm?

What is so terrible about a longer school day/school year? I am no expert but it feels like pretty low hanging fruit.

WTF? You think teachers are "done with work" by 3 PM? When my wife was in the classroom, she had to be at work by 7:15 and didn't get off until after bus duty, which ran from 4:30 - 5 PM. She worked a longer day than I did while trying to manage a classroom full of 5-year-olds, yet I got paid 5x as much for sitting in front a computer all day. If teachers didn't get summers off, there'd be no fucking teachers. It's literally the only thing that makes it a halfway acceptable work arrangement.

They are most definitely done teaching students by 3pm. Therefore the parents get to be tagged in despite still being during the work day.

I want the "business" to respond to the "customer" I (the customer) want better test scores and a longer school day/year. In any industry the business would respond to what the customer wanted. Unfortunately we are dealing with government and unions two things that are not great at adapting to change.

No one else gets summers off and still gets paid, I think the market would quickly adjust. Our school system structure is stuck in the what 1950's? I think we can all agree its time to modernize some of it.

First, teacher's don't get paid in the summer. Some schools will structure their checks to allow them to receive a "paycheck" during the summer, but that's generally only if the teacher chooses it for their own budgeting purpose.  The contract only covers days worked.

Second, schools aren't a business. If you want a business to respond to customer demands, I suggest finding a private school that does so. 
I know there are private schools in my area that have school during standard work hours. The few I'm thinking of are more "one room schoolhouse" type operations though. The demand isn't there for that type of school, because it's super expensive.

Third, as stated, teaching students is not a teacher's only job. Whether or not they are done teaching students, they are not done with work yet. They have a standard work day, and in many cases, longer than standard work day.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: arebelspy on March 08, 2019, 10:20:06 AM
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.


Disclaimer: 7 years public school teacher, one year coaching teachers on how to teach. Masters in Elementary education. Note, however, none of my focus of this post was on what teachers do or don't do in terms of time, effort, hours, etc. I can elucidate about that, too, if desired. ;)
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ysette9 on March 08, 2019, 10:40:43 AM
I agree that kids don’t need more “school”, but they do need supervision and a safe place to play and explore and learn. Why can’t that be on the school campus where they already are hanging out with their friends, have a nice play yard, and have facilities available for study time or homework time or whatever? We don’t need teachers to continue teaching until 5 or 6 in the evening but we could hire some tutors and have homework time and hire some recess attendants and have outdoor make-sand-castles time. Hell, the privileged kids already get this via their parents paying for an “after school” program that is at school. Why not level the playing field? Yes, it would cost society some more money, but I would argue the net benefit would be positive for all the parents would could continue working full time and focus at work instead of pulling their hair out trying to do acrobatics piecing together after school care, or those who drop out because of frustration.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: I'm a red panda on March 08, 2019, 11:01:47 AM
I agree that kids don’t need more “school”, but they do need supervision and a safe place to play and explore and learn. Why can’t that be on the school campus where they already are hanging out with their friends, have a nice play yard, and have facilities available for study time or homework time or whatever? We don’t need teachers to continue teaching until 5 or 6 in the evening but we could hire some tutors and have homework time and hire some recess attendants and have outdoor make-sand-castles time. Hell, the privileged kids already get this via their parents paying for an “after school” program that is at school. Why not level the playing field? Yes, it would cost society some more money, but I would argue the net benefit would be positive for all the parents would could continue working full time and focus at work instead of pulling their hair out trying to do acrobatics piecing together after school care, or those who drop out because of frustration.

Our schools have this. You can do aftercare at the school or at a private facility.  The school aftercare is not tax payer funded (though the building is, so it's subsidized...)
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Hula Hoop on March 08, 2019, 01:18:22 PM
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.

I agree completely.  Also, ysette, red panda is right - that is called before/after school care. 
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on March 08, 2019, 01:38:54 PM
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.


Disclaimer: 7 years public school teacher, one year coaching teachers on how to teach. Masters in Elementary education. Note, however, none of my focus of this post was on what teachers do or don't do in terms of time, effort, hours, etc. I can elucidate about that, too, if desired. ;)

Too lazy to look up the nation that has learning through play as their primary way of teaching and that works beautifully for young kids. How does it apply to kids from 12 and up? Or are we only talking about kids that need dropped off and picked up?

Also, you could have a longer teaching day with more play time throughout the day.

Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ysette9 on March 08, 2019, 02:02:20 PM
I believe you are thinking of the Nordics.

Extending the day with more play would give the benefits to all kids instead of just the kids whose families can scrape together the cash to PAY for before and after school care. And not every school offers that, or offers it on campus. Then you also have to pay for transportation if you are lucky to find a program you can get into and afford. I am anxiously awaiting the opening of after school program admissions because without getting into that program our entire work/life precarious balance would be completely hosed.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: I'm a red panda on March 08, 2019, 02:33:38 PM
I believe you are thinking of the Nordics.

Extending the day with more play would give the benefits to all kids instead of just the kids whose families can scrape together the cash to PAY for before and after school care. And not every school offers that, or offers it on campus. Then you also have to pay for transportation if you are lucky to find a program you can get into and afford. I am anxiously awaiting the opening of after school program admissions because without getting into that program our entire work/life precarious balance would be completely hosed.

The transportation issue is a major issue for families just to get their kids to school at all.  The busing around here is dismal.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: HBFIRE on March 08, 2019, 05:55:04 PM
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.


This is really interesting, definitely would be interested in hearing more on this.  Any good resources for parents trying to improve their child's learning environment?  I think we might push our 11-yr old son too hard in school and I fear it's making him dislike school, trying to find a better method.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: MrThatsDifferent on March 08, 2019, 06:13:52 PM
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.


This is really interesting, definitely would be interested in hearing more on this.  Any good resources for parents trying to improve their child's learning environment?  I think we might push our son too hard in school and I fear it's making him dislike school, trying to find a better method.

Isn’t this kinda the Montessori school approach? Have you checked that out?

MOD EDIT: Fixed Quote Tags.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: soccerluvof4 on March 09, 2019, 03:58:33 AM
I fire'd four years ago come April 2nd with 4 kids at home. Since two have gone to college and two still at home. For us its been great MOST of the time because for one with our kids so involved in sports its a lot easier to run them around and two its been great being able to spend more time with my kids and go see the two in college whenever I feel like it both being about 5-6 hours away. I will say its better with 2 at home than it was with all 4 and kids for sure are more expensive when there older but some of that is decisions as parents we make. My two oldest worked all through HS and had to pay for there insurance and cell phones but of course our food, water bills were higher. Fortunately they got scholarships for College.  I am looking forward for summer coming because I enjoy going fishing and doing father kid stuff with them every day but am always ready for them going back to school. I do think for me at least if kids weren't around I would be bored and age faster they keep me on my toes which Is why we hope to always have them at least in some degree in our lives and want to end up when me make our final move very close to a college town to remain around young people.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: CanuckExpat on March 09, 2019, 07:04:31 PM
This is really interesting, definitely would be interested in hearing more on this.  Any good resources for parents trying to improve their child's learning environment?  I think we might push our 11-yr old son too hard in school and I fear it's making him dislike school, trying to find a better method.

This is a resource aimed more at the child, but it also doesn't hurt for parents to read it: Teenage Liberation Handbook (https://amzn.to/2Ht9XUd)
More on the "extreme" end, and also slightly dated (consider it pre-internet), but it is a good read, and it highlights many other good resources.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ender on March 17, 2019, 06:59:04 AM
I have vague hopes to be able to FIRE early enough to be involved in homeschooling kids.

I'm unsure how I would be able to deal with that energywise, though ;-)
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: smoghat on March 17, 2019, 08:57:36 AM
My wife retired in 2008, I retired in 2015 (1/4 time, it's been full time since last year). I don't feel like it's really FIRE. My kids (13 and 16) have demands that I don't feel ok saying no to. By this I mean, they want to live in the town we currently live in and they don't want to take a year or semester off of school. So we are tied here. If I lived in the country where I could get a season's pass skiing or could go travel around the world for a year, then I'd feel retired. Now, no. And when they go to college, will we we have the sort of disposable income we have now? I dunno.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Hula Hoop on March 17, 2019, 09:03:14 AM
The idea of homeschooling makes me break out in hives.  I just don't have that kind off patience.

smoghat - I feel the same.  In my ideal FIRE scenario, we'd be travelling all the time including during the school year.  My kids are 7 and 10 though so it's a long time until college.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: JLR on March 17, 2019, 03:40:12 PM
My tip for combining FIRE and homeschooling is to beware the extra curriculars. Not only from a cost perspective, but because they tie you down. My husband is always saying "I thought we homeschooled to give us more freedom!", but I remind him it is important for our kids to mingle with other kids, so that means being around for the soccer season, etc, so they can attend training and games, etc. The other difficulty with this is that we hate travelling in school holidays, but the extra curriculars can really tie us to the school term. They run all through the term and have breaks for the holidays. When you are trying to teach your kids to be reliable, that they need to be there for their team, etc, it can be hard to then justify taking a few weeks off mid-term to go away.

For those with young kids I will give you the ray of hope that it gets easier as they get older. We believe that if you put in hard yards when they are young it makes things easier when they are older. Rather than it being intense every single day there might be one seriously intense conversation each week nutting out some issue. Of course, FIRE makes this easier. You can be there at the times you are needed.

My other tip (related to the OP) is to teach your kids when they are young how to get their own (safe) breakfast. My husband and I love a good laze in bed in the morning. Our kids were all breakfast self-sufficient at a young age (preschool). We would keep an ear out in case there was any trouble, but we got many blissful hours of lazing while still being parents to three small children.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ysette9 on March 17, 2019, 08:42:20 PM
I love the breakfast advice. I’m considering taking the bars off the crib for my 18-month old so she can climb out of bed in the morning for that reason. Her sister (4.5) is sufficient for breakfast if it is something simple like cereal or toast. If the little one could climb out of bed and the big one could fetch her a banana, I might be reintroduced to the concept of sleeping in on the weekend.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ender on March 18, 2019, 07:44:33 AM
My wife retired in 2008, I retired in 2015 (1/4 time, it's been full time since last year). I don't feel like it's really FIRE. My kids (13 and 16) have demands that I don't feel ok saying no to. By this I mean, they want to live in the town we currently live in and they don't want to take a year or semester off of school. So we are tied here. If I lived in the country where I could get a season's pass skiing or could go travel around the world for a year, then I'd feel retired. Now, no. And when they go to college, will we we have the sort of disposable income we have now? I dunno.

I have always had it in my mind that even if we're FI before kids are graduated from high school that it wouldn't make sense to actually RE before then.

That's a ways out practically in either case (enough to FI or them graduating) but I've wondered logistically how this might work at that point too.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Case on March 18, 2019, 08:37:35 AM
In the end, I ended up thinking to myself, "you know, if you're panicking so much at the loss of your freedoms, and trying to find ways to bend the 'rules' so that you can have children and still have all those freedoms, maybe you're not the best candidate for being a parent".  If you FIRE, and then use money to put your child in daycare all day, or get an au pair (per @arebelspy comment), is choosing to be a parent a good choice? I'm not condemning, or stating the answer; rather, I'm stating it's a conversation worth having within the FIRE community, as well as personally (and with your partner).

...

It's a fuzzy line between right and wrong, and money acts as the vehicle to enable.  And of course, it's a grey area; it could be argued that parents with more going on in their life can be better parents to some degree (but obviously there is a point where it becomes malproductive.  Cue the classic cases of parents that pay more attention to their job than their children).  And some activities can be enhanced with a child... and some activities are made miserable with a child.

There are two basic reasons not to have kids: it will make you less happy, and you wouldn't be a good parent.  I will stand as evidence that's entirely possible for kids to make you happier, even if you don't want to be a stay at home parent.  I love my kids a lot!  They provide boundless joy!  They definitely contribute positively to my wellbeing!  They are definitely worth the sacrifices of free time and sleep. Obviously there are people who are happiest not having kids at all. There are also people who are happiest having kids, but also having a good chunk of time each week away from them.

So to the other possibility, that it's bad for kids to be born to a parent who doesn't want to stay at home full time.  Luckily, there are loads of studies showing that high quality daycare settings are neutral-to-good for kids.  This shouldn't be remotely surprising.  The model of full-time care by a parent in the nuclear family home is actually pretty unusual as a way to organize childrearing, if we look across historical and cultural contexts.  Most cultures have relied heavily on non-parental figures to do a good chunk of the work of childrearing.  This takes a wide variety of forms, including shared childrearing among mothers with similarly aged children, childrearing by grandparents, and often significant labor from older siblings (sometimes starting at what are, to contemporary US sensibilities, shockingly young ages). 

Kids need strong attachments to consistent caregivers.  That is entirely compatible with spending 40-45 hours/week in a high-quality daycare, or with a nanny or babysitter.  My kids have strong and secure attachments to both me and my husband, and they also spend lots of time with other loving and competent adults.  They have good lives.  Not perfect, but the imperfections are in no way a result of the fact that they are in daycare. 

Look, I have to admit that it's pretty enraging to have someone tell me that they think I'm "not the best candidate for being a parent."  You are suggesting that I'm harming the people I care most about in this world, based on some pretty uninformed assumptions.

Looks like I missed this response, so time for me to catch up.

I thought I made it pretty clear that I wasn't accusing anyone of being a shitty parent.  That interpretation is on you.

The point of my response was to get people to think outside the box.  It consider the possibility that your way of life isn't optimal, and to think of what tweaks can be done to make it more optimal.  In regards to parenting, I was looking for outside-the-norm ideas on how to raise a child.  Ideally, ones that maximize the freedom of the parent.  In addition, I wanted to discuss how this impacts the successful of the parenting on the whole, and whether it is therefore a good idea overall.

For example, one step might be to send your kids to day care, in order to give more time to work, or for other personal pursuits.  A second step, might be to send your kids to summer camp all summer... then you have a summer mostly to yourself!  A third step might be to send your kids to boarding school all year round.  Total freedom almost!
At what point does this become 'bad' for the child?  It probably depends on the child, the parent, and lots of other variables.  I'm trying to encourage the discussion, especially between parents.  But I'd hope they can be open-minded to the possibility that paths other than their own are ok too, and maybe even better.  Maybe not seeing your kids much is a good thing, because it gives you more time to pursue non-child pursuits, which in term develops you into a more fulfilled person, who then has more to share with the child when you do see them.  Or, maybe that's all bullshit.  Or, maybe it varies person to person.  Or maybe it doesn't.

Personally, I'm actually very open-minded on parenting topics; I don't really judge people.  Rather, I support an objective, academic pursuit of knowledge.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Case on March 18, 2019, 08:44:01 AM
I’m impressed with your restraint in your response, @historienne

Me too!

Interesting, I didn't interpret Case's post at all as a judgement on others for how they parent, but as a comment about how it's ok to selfishly not have kids, and that this is a discussion that should be had.  Because for most people, parenting is a foregone conclusion, and deciding to not have kids is looked upon as suspicion.  People ask 'why don't you want kids?' way more often than they would ask 'why DO you want kids?', which is probably a much more important question to consider.  For a lot of people, not having kids would be too far outside the box of accepted social norms, especially with a lot of family cultures.  This alternative does need to be more of an active conversation.

Yeah, I didn’t read it as judgement either. Case shared that in deciding whether kids were right for her she realized her plan was to outsource as much as possible so she could have more time to herself and if that was her thinking, maybe time for herself was more important? That seems fair and responsible. I wish more people thought longer and harder about having kids, maybe there would be less abuse and neglect of children?

I’m in a situation where I will have to have support and help so outsourcing some will be necessary. I’m ok with that although at this stage (don’t have the kid yet) I’m more concerned about missing moments: first steps, words and the like. I don’t want to miss anything! This might all change if I’m exhausted and need Daddy time, who knows? I do know lots of people are natural parents and it shows and they struggle, some legitimately love it and it shows as well. Still neither path doesn’t necessarily determine the kid.

I believe you have interpreted me correctly; thanks!  One correction; I'm a dude, just like the real Case is.  (I'm not offended).

Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Cassie on March 18, 2019, 02:38:15 PM
I think it’s very important for people to really decide if they want children. Nothing is wrong with deciding against it.  I feel that if you are going to send them away to boarding school or camp for the entire summer that being a parent is probably not what you want out of life.   Birth control and expectations of society have changed for the better. It would be great for all children to be wanted.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: historienne on March 18, 2019, 07:51:41 PM
In the end, I ended up thinking to myself, "you know, if you're panicking so much at the loss of your freedoms, and trying to find ways to bend the 'rules' so that you can have children and still have all those freedoms, maybe you're not the best candidate for being a parent".  If you FIRE, and then use money to put your child in daycare all day, or get an au pair (per @arebelspy comment), is choosing to be a parent a good choice? I'm not condemning, or stating the answer; rather, I'm stating it's a conversation worth having within the FIRE community, as well as personally (and with your partner).

...

It's a fuzzy line between right and wrong, and money acts as the vehicle to enable.  And of course, it's a grey area; it could be argued that parents with more going on in their life can be better parents to some degree (but obviously there is a point where it becomes malproductive.  Cue the classic cases of parents that pay more attention to their job than their children).  And some activities can be enhanced with a child... and some activities are made miserable with a child.

There are two basic reasons not to have kids: it will make you less happy, and you wouldn't be a good parent.  I will stand as evidence that's entirely possible for kids to make you happier, even if you don't want to be a stay at home parent.  I love my kids a lot!  They provide boundless joy!  They definitely contribute positively to my wellbeing!  They are definitely worth the sacrifices of free time and sleep. Obviously there are people who are happiest not having kids at all. There are also people who are happiest having kids, but also having a good chunk of time each week away from them.

So to the other possibility, that it's bad for kids to be born to a parent who doesn't want to stay at home full time.  Luckily, there are loads of studies showing that high quality daycare settings are neutral-to-good for kids.  This shouldn't be remotely surprising.  The model of full-time care by a parent in the nuclear family home is actually pretty unusual as a way to organize childrearing, if we look across historical and cultural contexts.  Most cultures have relied heavily on non-parental figures to do a good chunk of the work of childrearing.  This takes a wide variety of forms, including shared childrearing among mothers with similarly aged children, childrearing by grandparents, and often significant labor from older siblings (sometimes starting at what are, to contemporary US sensibilities, shockingly young ages). 

Kids need strong attachments to consistent caregivers.  That is entirely compatible with spending 40-45 hours/week in a high-quality daycare, or with a nanny or babysitter.  My kids have strong and secure attachments to both me and my husband, and they also spend lots of time with other loving and competent adults.  They have good lives.  Not perfect, but the imperfections are in no way a result of the fact that they are in daycare. 

Look, I have to admit that it's pretty enraging to have someone tell me that they think I'm "not the best candidate for being a parent."  You are suggesting that I'm harming the people I care most about in this world, based on some pretty uninformed assumptions.

Looks like I missed this response, so time for me to catch up.

I thought I made it pretty clear that I wasn't accusing anyone of being a shitty parent.  That interpretation is on you.

The point of my response was to get people to think outside the box.  It consider the possibility that your way of life isn't optimal, and to think of what tweaks can be done to make it more optimal.  In regards to parenting, I was looking for outside-the-norm ideas on how to raise a child.  Ideally, ones that maximize the freedom of the parent.  In addition, I wanted to discuss how this impacts the successful of the parenting on the whole, and whether it is therefore a good idea overall.

For example, one step might be to send your kids to day care, in order to give more time to work, or for other personal pursuits.  A second step, might be to send your kids to summer camp all summer... then you have a summer mostly to yourself!  A third step might be to send your kids to boarding school all year round.  Total freedom almost!
At what point does this become 'bad' for the child?  It probably depends on the child, the parent, and lots of other variables.  I'm trying to encourage the discussion, especially between parents.  But I'd hope they can be open-minded to the possibility that paths other than their own are ok too, and maybe even better.  Maybe not seeing your kids much is a good thing, because it gives you more time to pursue non-child pursuits, which in term develops you into a more fulfilled person, who then has more to share with the child when you do see them.  Or, maybe that's all bullshit.  Or, maybe it varies person to person.  Or maybe it doesn't.

Personally, I'm actually very open-minded on parenting topics; I don't really judge people.  Rather, I support an objective, academic pursuit of knowledge.

Despite your self-description, you are not remotely engaging in an academic pursuit of knowledge here; that involves systematic inquiry (there's actual research on this subject, lots of it!), not just idly playing the devil's advocate.  I spend a lot of time getting my college students to stop that kind of argumentation.   

Here's one reason: it treats people's lives as though it's an interesting puzzle for you to solve, rather than a real and complex experience.  You literally suggested that someone in my specific position (financially able to stay home with my kid, but choosing not to) might have made the wrong choice in become a parent, because I'm making choices that are bad for my kids.  You'll notice that I was not the only poster who found it insulting; and if you're actually interested in any of this, I think you should take that seriously.  It might tell you something about the experience of parenting.

Here's another: your I'm-just-asking-not-judging speculations reinforce pre-existing power relations in contemporary American society, particularly for women.  Working mothers hear suggestions that they should probably just stay home with their kids all the time.  Your post is the third time this month someone has suggested for no good reason that my life choices are harming my kids.  It's not an outside-the-box discussion; it is the box.  And frankly, it's boring. 

Finally, if you want to have a productive discussion of parenting, you should start from the assumption that parents have, in general, thought deeply both about their choice to have kids, and about how to raise the kids they've chosen to have.  If you want to talk about the limits of good parenting, and not have parents get insulted, you're going to have to start talking as though we've actually thought this stuff through already. 
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: ysette9 on March 18, 2019, 08:10:37 PM
Oh, snap.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Case on March 19, 2019, 05:56:48 AM
In the end, I ended up thinking to myself, "you know, if you're panicking so much at the loss of your freedoms, and trying to find ways to bend the 'rules' so that you can have children and still have all those freedoms, maybe you're not the best candidate for being a parent".  If you FIRE, and then use money to put your child in daycare all day, or get an au pair (per @arebelspy comment), is choosing to be a parent a good choice? I'm not condemning, or stating the answer; rather, I'm stating it's a conversation worth having within the FIRE community, as well as personally (and with your partner).

...

It's a fuzzy line between right and wrong, and money acts as the vehicle to enable.  And of course, it's a grey area; it could be argued that parents with more going on in their life can be better parents to some degree (but obviously there is a point where it becomes malproductive.  Cue the classic cases of parents that pay more attention to their job than their children).  And some activities can be enhanced with a child... and some activities are made miserable with a child.

There are two basic reasons not to have kids: it will make you less happy, and you wouldn't be a good parent.  I will stand as evidence that's entirely possible for kids to make you happier, even if you don't want to be a stay at home parent.  I love my kids a lot!  They provide boundless joy!  They definitely contribute positively to my wellbeing!  They are definitely worth the sacrifices of free time and sleep. Obviously there are people who are happiest not having kids at all. There are also people who are happiest having kids, but also having a good chunk of time each week away from them.

So to the other possibility, that it's bad for kids to be born to a parent who doesn't want to stay at home full time.  Luckily, there are loads of studies showing that high quality daycare settings are neutral-to-good for kids.  This shouldn't be remotely surprising.  The model of full-time care by a parent in the nuclear family home is actually pretty unusual as a way to organize childrearing, if we look across historical and cultural contexts.  Most cultures have relied heavily on non-parental figures to do a good chunk of the work of childrearing.  This takes a wide variety of forms, including shared childrearing among mothers with similarly aged children, childrearing by grandparents, and often significant labor from older siblings (sometimes starting at what are, to contemporary US sensibilities, shockingly young ages). 

Kids need strong attachments to consistent caregivers.  That is entirely compatible with spending 40-45 hours/week in a high-quality daycare, or with a nanny or babysitter.  My kids have strong and secure attachments to both me and my husband, and they also spend lots of time with other loving and competent adults.  They have good lives.  Not perfect, but the imperfections are in no way a result of the fact that they are in daycare. 

Look, I have to admit that it's pretty enraging to have someone tell me that they think I'm "not the best candidate for being a parent."  You are suggesting that I'm harming the people I care most about in this world, based on some pretty uninformed assumptions.

Looks like I missed this response, so time for me to catch up.

I thought I made it pretty clear that I wasn't accusing anyone of being a shitty parent.  That interpretation is on you.

The point of my response was to get people to think outside the box.  It consider the possibility that your way of life isn't optimal, and to think of what tweaks can be done to make it more optimal.  In regards to parenting, I was looking for outside-the-norm ideas on how to raise a child.  Ideally, ones that maximize the freedom of the parent.  In addition, I wanted to discuss how this impacts the successful of the parenting on the whole, and whether it is therefore a good idea overall.

For example, one step might be to send your kids to day care, in order to give more time to work, or for other personal pursuits.  A second step, might be to send your kids to summer camp all summer... then you have a summer mostly to yourself!  A third step might be to send your kids to boarding school all year round.  Total freedom almost!
At what point does this become 'bad' for the child?  It probably depends on the child, the parent, and lots of other variables.  I'm trying to encourage the discussion, especially between parents.  But I'd hope they can be open-minded to the possibility that paths other than their own are ok too, and maybe even better.  Maybe not seeing your kids much is a good thing, because it gives you more time to pursue non-child pursuits, which in term develops you into a more fulfilled person, who then has more to share with the child when you do see them.  Or, maybe that's all bullshit.  Or, maybe it varies person to person.  Or maybe it doesn't.

Personally, I'm actually very open-minded on parenting topics; I don't really judge people.  Rather, I support an objective, academic pursuit of knowledge.

Despite your self-description, you are not remotely engaging in an academic pursuit of knowledge here; that involves systematic inquiry (there's actual research on this subject, lots of it!), not just idly playing the devil's advocate.  I spend a lot of time getting my college students to stop that kind of argumentation.   

Here's one reason: it treats people's lives as though it's an interesting puzzle for you to solve, rather than a real and complex experience.  You literally suggested that someone in my specific position (financially able to stay home with my kid, but choosing not to) might have made the wrong choice in become a parent, because I'm making choices that are bad for my kids.  You'll notice that I was not the only poster who found it insulting; and if you're actually interested in any of this, I think you should take that seriously.  It might tell you something about the experience of parenting.

Here's another: your I'm-just-asking-not-judging speculations reinforce pre-existing power relations in contemporary American society, particularly for women.  Working mothers hear suggestions that they should probably just stay home with their kids all the time.  Your post is the third time this month someone has suggested for no good reason that my life choices are harming my kids.  It's not an outside-the-box discussion; it is the box.  And frankly, it's boring. 

Finally, if you want to have a productive discussion of parenting, you should start from the assumption that parents have, in general, thought deeply both about their choice to have kids, and about how to raise the kids they've chosen to have.  If you want to talk about the limits of good parenting, and not have parents get insulted, you're going to have to start talking as though we've actually thought this stuff through already.


We will have to agree to disagree.  I already put on the mickey-mouse gloves in the first post you responded to.  If you go back to my original post, the part with ‘not the best candidate’, you will see that i am talking about myself, not you or others.  Again, it’sreally up to you to decide if my personal thought line is one you want to apply to yourself. You mnetioned others were insulted too, but others also chimed in to disagree.  Its nice that you have students that you teach things to, but that does not make you an authority figure here.  I’m not going to dumb down the conversation further.  It begins to get difficult to have discussions when you’re tip toeing aroung topics, making sure not to accidentally insult someone.  For example, this is derailing the conversation.  I will try not actively insult people, but i simply disagree.

For the record, i am in support of having daycare/relatives/others help out.  I also dont think women should be pressured to stay home, at all, and certainly not more than men are.  The fact the you are insinuating that i am supporting the other side is ....surprising.

My actual interests are in how far you can push this (having others care for your child) before it starts being bad for the child, and how to define this.  I am not an expert in this area, i cannot at this time link you to academic studies.  But if you have them, i’d love to read (review articles are best for non-experts like me).  When i stated academic, i meant ‘free thinking’, or in pursuit of open conversation to find the answer to my question, without being hindered by obstacles such as political correctness.  Asking questions, playing devils advocate, etc... is very much part of the academic process.  It is the first step in discourse.  You have condemned me and we have hardly even gotten started.

Rather than have this be a personal argument between you and me, how about we convert it into a fruitful discussion onthe topic of parenting?  If you can link me to studies analyzing parenting effectiveness vs time spent with child, or amount of daycare (etc...) i will take a read.  I honestly am not looking to prove that people that put their kids in daycare are bad people.  The wrold is replete with contrary examples.  At some point i’ll start a little research myself, but i figured i’d post on a thread with parents actively commenting in, and that that would be a more rapid way to address the question.

As an aside, i didnt decid against children because i didnt want to use daycare.  In all likelihood, i would use daycare if i had kids.  And, even then (FIREd with kids in daycare) i wondered if i would still feel like i was giving up too much freedom.  This is what drove my internal narrative to think “maybe I am not the right candidate”.  At no point did i say “maybe others aren’t the right candidate”.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Hula Hoop on March 19, 2019, 06:53:39 AM
Despite your self-description, you are not remotely engaging in an academic pursuit of knowledge here; that involves systematic inquiry (there's actual research on this subject, lots of it!), not just idly playing the devil's advocate.  I spend a lot of time getting my college students to stop that kind of argumentation.   

Here's one reason: it treats people's lives as though it's an interesting puzzle for you to solve, rather than a real and complex experience.  You literally suggested that someone in my specific position (financially able to stay home with my kid, but choosing not to) might have made the wrong choice in become a parent, because I'm making choices that are bad for my kids.  You'll notice that I was not the only poster who found it insulting; and if you're actually interested in any of this, I think you should take that seriously.  It might tell you something about the experience of parenting.

Here's another: your I'm-just-asking-not-judging speculations reinforce pre-existing power relations in contemporary American society, particularly for women.  Working mothers hear suggestions that they should probably just stay home with their kids all the time.  Your post is the third time this month someone has suggested for no good reason that my life choices are harming my kids.  It's not an outside-the-box discussion; it is the box.  And frankly, it's boring. 

Finally, if you want to have a productive discussion of parenting, you should start from the assumption that parents have, in general, thought deeply both about their choice to have kids, and about how to raise the kids they've chosen to have.  If you want to talk about the limits of good parenting, and not have parents get insulted, you're going to have to start talking as though we've actually thought this stuff through already.

Amen! 
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Dicey on March 19, 2019, 10:21:27 AM
It's interesting to me some of you think modernizing schooling is "let's make kids go to school MORE! More hours, and year round!"

IMO, kids need more play, not more school (aka rote learning--learning should always be done, but not necessarily schooling. Most learning is through play). Kids in school are mentally drained/done by the end of the day as it is.


Disclaimer: 7 years public school teacher, one year coaching teachers on how to teach. Masters in Elementary education. Note, however, none of my focus of this post was on what teachers do or don't do in terms of time, effort, hours, etc. I can elucidate about that, too, if desired. ;)
Slightly off topic: I woke up this morning wishing for an update on the @arebelspy Family, and here you are! I loved the new link. Keep up the fine work, Joe!
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: arebelspy on March 19, 2019, 11:24:43 AM
Slightly off topic: I woke up this morning wishing for an update on the @arebelspy Family, and here you are! I loved the new link. Keep up the fine work, Joe!

Man, you are eagle-eyed to spot that one sentence change!  :)
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Cassie on March 19, 2019, 12:05:17 PM
What a cute family picture! So fun to read the update.
Title: Re: FIRE with kids: when does it start to feel like retirement?
Post by: Dicey on March 19, 2019, 07:53:00 PM
Slightly off topic: I woke up this morning wishing for an update on the @arebelspy Family, and here you are! I loved the new link. Keep up the fine work, Joe!

Man, you are eagle-eyed to spot that one sentence change!  :)
Ah, but what a great change it is! I was really jonesing for updated photos of the kids. That's a good one. Hint: MORE! (please)