FIRE, ER, and dating???

[Kansaslover5]

Thought I might throw in this paper as it relates to Mustachianism: Male Financial Consumption is Associated with Higher Mating Intentions and Mating Success.

Males who have higher mating intentions may maximize their economic displays, saving little and even spending beyond their capacity through the use of credit. These men may seek and possibly obtain a greater number of sexual partners. This hypothesis was tested in a randomly selected community sample of men aged 18-45 included in a telephone health interview. The degree of financial consumption was directly related to future mating intentions and past mating success, even when accounting for age, years of education completed, and marital status.

+1

How sad, but it definitely confirms the anecdotal evidence I've seen over the years. I have no interest in going that route. I'd rather be alone than live for material consumption and debt.

[Kansaslover5]

Thanks aphalite, okashira, and Eric. You guys nailed it.

I really don't get all the outrage over using humor and confidence to improve one's prospects in dating or attracting members of the opposite sex, and calling it "tactics" and "fake." You might as well express similar outrage over advice to be likable, have manners, and be confident at work in order to improve one's career prospects.

Here's another thing: Advice that can be boiled down to "be yourself" ignores the potential that "being yourself" may actually be horrible advice. Some people are socially inept. Many guys have no clue how to actually approach and talk to women, or they have misguided ideas (such as that "being nice" will be successful). Telling them to "be yourself" may be essentially sentencing them to a lifetime of failure and loneliness. It doesn't mean someone has to be fake -- they can learn how to converse, to create attraction, and to do interesting things so they actually are interesting and have something to talk about

And here is the crux of the situation. It takes hard work to get into a relationship. But notice what's going on here? It takes hard work for a single gender. Let me ask the question: why is this day of supposed gender equality in everything else, is all of the work in dating still put on men's shoulders? Why do men need to initiate and women get to decide?

I could play the game. Read every book and attend every seminar on "attracting women". Go out on town one night, talk to 100 women, and hope that increases my odds. But what do women need to do in the same situations? Just respond, just choose which of the countless men out there that approach them that they are interested in. This is just as true on dating sites as anywhere else.

To me it looks like I need to put in as much effort into dating as to getting an education. That just sounds like too much work. And frankly, I'm just not that desperate. For me, a relationship would be nice to have. For a women who thinks a relationship would be nice to have, all she needs to do is go on a date when a guy asks her, accept future dates, and boom, she's in a relationship. For me as a guy, I need to compete against all of the other guys who are out there, just desperate for a relationship, and are putting all of this effort into researching the "science of attracting women".

Add in my bit of idealism that women are actually human beings, and shouldn't just be calculated down to a science, and you have the clear solution: why even bother?

I've often wondered the same things and I've had the same observations -- especially on dating sites.

[Kansaslover5]

Responding to the post about dating being hard work for men, not for women:

I'm a woman and I just quit dating (online and otherwise) because it required hard work, such as:

1. Respond to messages that say little. I'm not talking just about the ones that say, "Hey, 'sup?" Those ones I ignored. I was working hard to find a way to respond to a person that seemed decent but opened with something so lacking in substance I couldn't find much to say. Granted, I'm an introvert, a little Aspie, and not great at small talk. If they prefer opening with the latter, they're probably lucky to be weeding me out so easily! I was also immediately exhausted by indications that people wanted to start with an online back-and-forth, e.g., "So, you like to write...Me too." Oh. Ask me out. (And yes, where I'm interested, I do ask a guy out. Even if he opens with something tentative.)

2. Find people I have hope around. To do that, delete those from Not Here, delete the ones with "sup?", read all remaining profiles, delete the ones whose profiles are near-empty, delete the ones only looking for sex. That leaves almost no one, so start hunting through the local profiles and emailing people.

3. Arrange child care. Oy vey. Oh, now the guy needs to reschedule... Cancel child care, start again. Again, maybe they are feeling very happy/lucky to be weeding out the full-time parent?

4. Dress. That is, step outside of my norm of dressing however I feel like dressing in a moment. Maybe that's not even necessary. Cultural norms have been convincing me it is, but maybe on my next round I'll test that.

5. Have new pictures taken, because mine do not have enough skin exposed and makeup shimmering to attract attention amongst all the fancy chicks.

6. And here was one of the biggies, here was a thing I couldn't do any more of: Hold up more than half of the conversation. One really nice fellow emailed me after, "That was great... I feel we barely scratched the surface." And I felt like, "Oh man, I did! I scratched the surface, dug through the sediment, excavated... all to get the conversation going and holding." For him, it felt like a light, lovely, delightful conversation. For me, it felt like a ton of work to get us there. Now, I don't put this on him. He is an intelligent, sweet guy. Sometimes I ponder taking him up on his offer of a second date. What I realized is that I work hard on dates. I recently left a relationship in which I worked hard in every interaction, especially to create conversation. So, I am very weary and wary in that area right now. I think I shouldn't date until I have let go of my natural impulse to make the date so easy and lovely for the person across from me. I mean, I certainly want to help the other feel comfortable. But I was going too far. A codependent approach to first dates. And when a relationship starts there, where I am working this hard to support conversation, I'm terrified that four years later, I will still be doing that...while the guy is (referencing last relationship) wordlessly cheating on me.

7. Fending off unwanted physical contact. I'm a slow mover. I need to know someone and develop strong attraction before I want to be with them physically, and even when I get there I still want, god forbid, STI tests. The last guy I dated was ready for, um, way more from the first date. For seven dates I worked hard to keep him at bay.

In the end, I just thought, "Nah..."  Maybe in some months I'll have some energy again.

re: "What do you do?"

I'm in the camp that would run fast from a guy who insisted (i.e., said twice) that he's [a stuntman, other untrue silly thing], but man, "In the event of?" would make me pee laughing and totally seal the deal for me! "Investor" would also suffice.

About everything else...

Yes, men and women into All Things Mustache are a minority, and even among those of us who are, there is actually quite a bit of variation and dissension, so it's not like Mustaches makes us inherently compatible. And my cheating beloved was super Mustache, so I've learned to prioritize things other than Mustachianism. A guy my age (40s) would need to be debt-free and have enough monthly income to cover his needs and a bit of luxury, but beyond that, I look for articulate, conversational, honest, faithful (in whatever context we define that together), hygienic, safety-conscious, law-abiding (yet creative), etc.

Basically, it sounds like you have to fend off unwanted sexual contact. Men don't have that problem. Men generally don't get any sexual contact unless they actively seek out women, talk to them, ask them on dates, and hope one of them will actually take them up on the offer. You sound like you're having to work to find decent guys. Men have to actively work to find any women at all. Guess who has it harder. (men) Guess who has more options, even without trying at all. (women)

It's a fundamentally imbalanced system. I basically now see it as dating economics 101. Men (on average) clearly must want women more than women want men, or men wouldn't need to do all of the work and take all of the risks (such as rejection). Basically, a woman must have higher expected value for a man than vice versa. It's very similar to finding a job - most people need to apply for a job, and companies select one person out of all that apply. The same thing happens for men and women.

The problem happens when you enter a man who wouldn't mind being in a relationship, but isn't desperate for one like many other men. Those other men are basically willing to pay a higher price for the women (with their time, effort, money, etc) than he is. Those men also date multiple women at once, reducing the available supply of women available for other men. And there you have the problem: if a man wants to find a woman, he has to compete against these more skilled men (due to spending more time/effort into perfecting their "science of attraction"), and also compete against more desperate men, both categories of which are quite likely dating multiple women.

It's a losing deal for many men.

+10

[Daisy]

As far as trying to answer the question of "what you do" seriously and honestly for potential mates, I wish there was a word to combine all of the little individual things you do that help keep you in this low-expense lifestyle - like an investor, financial advisor/planner, chef, cyclist, handy man/woman, travel agent (to get good deals), house cleaner, auto mechanic (if you fix your own cars), social director, etc.

If this was a valid answer if you were doing this stuff for other people and getting paid for doing it, why can't we answer the question the same way if we are doing it for ourselves and getting paid in the sense of lowering our costs?

And I suppose some people get paid to be a life coach...well you are your own life coach.

This sort of thing (often suggested to stay-at-home moms [and I use "mom" on purpose because they usually are]) is misleading because most people who describe themselves as a "handyman" or a "financial advisor" etc. actually have training and education in those areas. Saying "I'm a chef" when you're just an amateur is kind of posing.

Yeah, you're probably right. I have a soft spot for this because my mom was a SAHM (after baby #2 or 4 born and coming to the US as immigrants so it was a sacrifice). My mom always felt put down by her sisters who worked outside of the house. Of course, one sister (my aunt) had my grandmother living with her tending to the necessary duties. The other aunt is just an amazing selfless always working kind of person (she's 89 now and so active and in great health).

Just this past weekend, my mom was telling me that her sisters brought up her SAHM status again recently and told her she was lucky. Mind you - they are all in their 80s now and not working outside of the house. I used these same words I said here to tell her that she did a lot for her family and taught us a lot of stuff because she was at home, and she shouldn't listen to her sisters. It's true - if they had hired someone to cook for us, no one would have looked down on that person for cooking since it was their "job" they were being paid for. But my mom doing it for her family is then looked down upon by her own sisters who said she was lucky she didn't have to have a job. I think my mom appreciated my words.

Makes no sense to me...sounds like society only values work if an outside person pays you for it. If you do it for your own family and bypass the cost of the middleman, then some in our society don't put as much importance to it. Makes me mad because my mom was an awesome mom.

[FatCat]

But what do women need to do in the same situations? Just respond, just choose which of the countless men out there that approach them that they are interested in. This is just as true on dating sites as anywhere else.

Sorry I didn't notice if this was already mentioned. But the only women I know who are courted by countless men and turning them down left and right are well... "super hawt chicks," for lack of a better term. Maybe you are only aiming at the perfect 10s when you yourself are not? Either you're mainly asking out really attractive women or it's in your mind that women have such easy pickings. Some do. Most don't.

[Theadyn]

But what do women need to do in the same situations? Just respond, just choose which of the countless men out there that approach them that they are interested in. This is just as true on dating sites as anywhere else.

Sorry I didn't notice if this was already mentioned. But the only women I know who are courted by countless men and turning them down left and right are well... "super hawt chicks," for lack of a better term. Maybe you are only aiming at the perfect 10s when you yourself are not? Either you're mainly asking out really attractive women or it's in your mind that women have such easy pickings. Some do. Most don't.

Those men are attracted to the ones with the fake nails, expensive highlights that cost $200 a pop, probably had a boob job, and are impressed with the money the dudes are doling out on them.  So where is all these 'countless men' that I can pick and choose from?   Haha.. or to put it in perspective from a female point of view, where are all these countless men that aren't trying to impress me with their Harley, their souped-up 4 mpg huge take up two-lanes truck, or try to take me to dinner for an $30 steak.   It is also hard on the female side to find someone that isn't looking for miss manicured bling bling, just so y'all know.

[marty998]

I recommend reading this post http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/
Number 3 is a kick in the pants, but it was something that I needed.

Sorry to necro this thread. Just want to say that post on cracked was the best thing I've read this year. By a very very big margin.

Thankyou