The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Holyoak on August 26, 2014, 10:14:50 AM
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So how do you do it, when you are all of 47 and retired, divorced after 23 years of marriage from a cheater, navigating through stigma, gold diggers, etc. My relationship spanned three decades, my 'picker' may be a bit rusty, and this new situation I am in both emotionally and financially requires I ask MMM.
Of course nearly the first thing gals ask is "what do you do"? How do you navigate this essential question? I guess the majority will figure you are an unambitious unemployed bum, weirdo, sugar daddy, or outright liar. Of course they will see either my 20 year old Camry, or 9 year old manual transmission Toyota Matrix I rolled up in, and...
I really don't care about this, as these things are really the truth serum to see what a gal is made out of/motivations; just the same, how do you navigate being fairly young and retired when perusing ladies to date?
Thanks a lot for your wise counsel!
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I wish I could tell you and if you find out, let me know. I'm single, 43, not FI yet, but when a girl finds out I don't own a car, walk (12 minutes) to work every day, shop at the ugly grocery store, and live in an apartment (not a house) they're none too happy to date me. That's just as well, because I usually find out they owe $10K in credit card debt, use the latest iPhone, still have student loans, drive a leased gas guzzler BMW, and plan on someday having a $50K wedding with a horse-carriage and fireworks involved. Meh, guess I'll stay single. I ain't letting that crazy behaviour anywhere near my savings.
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You could try the new-age environmentalist hippie/hipster demographic - we tend to be pretty non-materialistic. You can find us at vegetarian meetups, farmers markets, "natural" beaches, the library, and community center canning/sewing/home-brewing workshops.
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You could try the new-age environmentalist hippie/hipster demographic - we tend to be pretty non-materialistic. You can find us at vegetarian meetups, farmers markets, "natural" beaches, the library, and community center canning/sewing/home-brewing workshops.
+ 1 :)
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I don't think you can blame a gal for not wanting to date an "unemployed" bum. But yah, if you tell them you are retired I can see how that would attract the gold diggers.
My wealthy retired grandpa (quite a bit older than you) solved this by marrying a lady with her own job and nest egg (which ended up being bigger than his) and did a prenup and they keep all separate finances.
Do you volunteer? How about something vague to start, like "I am heavily involved in environmental advocacy for (insert endangered animals of your choice)". Or whatever applies to wherever you volunteer.
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Or it could be the normal things you'd do regardless of ER. Go do your interests and meet people. Try online dating or similar things. Get to know someone first. If you're having trouble answering the inevitable "What do you do for a living?" question then practice on some answers and get on with the dating.
Potential answers to that question include - "I'm an investor.", "I have partial ownership of a few businesses.", "Nothing and I love it." whatever. FIRE and ER doesn't change the core thing about dating and meeting people, you just probably do less of it in bars. Which I think most people would agree that you don't have to meet people there anyway.
Stick with the basics, find people with similar interests, go on dates, be a decent person...etc.
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You never know. I am in the same position, although I consider myself semi retired. I am dating someone who agrees with me that Money and things are not important.
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Let me know if you find out! I am going through a divorce right now after a 23 year relationship as well.
Just the mere thought of dating makes me break out in sweat.
My soon to be ex husband is already making plans, because he just does not want to be alone.
Whereas I don't want to face the fact, that I will have to deal with this sometime down the road.
In the long term, I know, I'd really like to have a partner in my FIRE ventures, someone to really team up with, but I don't have the slightest idea how to make that happen.
So from the female perspective this is not any easier guys, believe me. Appearances matter and people judge.
I find guys, who try to impress you with fancy restaurants, cars etc. suspicious.
I don't care much for manicures and spending hours to get dolled up for a date.
But if you don't, people will probably think you don't care enough for them.
My girlfriend, who has quite a bit of experience in online dating, showed me some of the online profiles of guys who had messaged her
and all that did was make me want to puke!
The stories I hear from her just make me want to skip the whole thing altogether and become a crazy old cat lady.
They do make for interesting entertainment though. I don't watch TV, but listening to her stories is better than any soap opera!
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Oh, and for "What do you do?" I'd stick with "Investor".
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You could try the new-age environmentalist hippie/hipster demographic - we tend to be pretty non-materialistic. You can find us at vegetarian meetups, farmers markets, "natural" beaches, the library, and community center canning/sewing/home-brewing workshops.
This group kind of turns me off a bit as well, though. I'm not a hippie - I bike and don't own a car because it saves me money and makes me healthier. Maybe I should try to pretend to be a hippie?
I do like the idea of claiming to be an "investor" post-FIRE. I'll just say I manage an investment portfolio (which happens to require zero work as it's all in index funds). :-)
My current plan is when I FIRE (very early 30's) to move to a cheaper COL country (Southeast Asia) where I actually would be decently-well to do with my FIRE income. Women in Asia are just more frugal than in America. I'm not going to try to change someone living here in the states - women who appreciate frugality are just too hard to find here, particularly the non-hippie type.
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Start in "Meetups and Social Events" to get to know your fellow mustachians, and get out and meet people. When you're really ready to date, and have let go of the chip you're carrying, check out "Mustachian and Single" to see if there are like minded women that you might date.
Believe it or not, there are actually women out that don't care what you drive or what you do for a living as long as you're a good person, can take care of yourself financially, and treat them respectfully. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, many men in your situation are "generally" looking for someone much younger, that they can "mold" and have more children with- which also begets the need for financial support. It is a rare middle-aged man who is interested in women his age group. Food for thought. Good luck.
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You could try the new-age environmentalist hippie/hipster demographic - we tend to be pretty non-materialistic. You can find us at vegetarian meetups, farmers markets, "natural" beaches, the library, and community center canning/sewing/home-brewing workshops.
This group kind of turns me off a bit as well, though. I'm not a hippie - I bike and don't own a car because it saves me money and makes me healthier. Maybe I should try to pretend to be a hippie?
I do like the idea of claiming to be an "investor" post-FIRE. I'll just say I manage an investment portfolio (which happens to require zero work as it's all in index funds). :-)
My current plan is when I FIRE (very early 30's) to move to a cheaper COL country (Southeast Asia) where I actually would be decently-well to do with my FIRE income. Women in Asia are just more frugal than in America. I'm not going to try to change someone living here in the states - women who appreciate frugality are just too hard to find here, particularly the non-hippie type.
You might be a hipster without knowing it. It gradually happened to me over about 3 years. One day people just started telling me "GOD you're such a hipster", and that was that.
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Remember that you're not just a "mustachian." You are someone with a different mindset than most people. Your lack of interest in people with $10K debt probably doesn't stem from the fact that they have some debt, but that they put material wants over happiness. That's right, those material possessions aren't actually providing them happiness, and they have put the material ownership above happiness. You'll just have to find someone who has the same idea that she wants happiness over material goods, and that isn't necessarily hard to do.
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You could try the new-age environmentalist hippie/hipster demographic - we tend to be pretty non-materialistic. You can find us at vegetarian meetups, farmers markets, "natural" beaches, the library, and community center canning/sewing/home-brewing workshops.
This group kind of turns me off a bit as well, though. I'm not a hippie - I bike and don't own a car because it saves me money and makes me healthier. Maybe I should try to pretend to be a hippie?
I do like the idea of claiming to be an "investor" post-FIRE. I'll just say I manage an investment portfolio (which happens to require zero work as it's all in index funds). :-)
My current plan is when I FIRE (very early 30's) to move to a cheaper COL country (Southeast Asia) where I actually would be decently-well to do with my FIRE income. Women in Asia are just more frugal than in America. I'm not going to try to change someone living here in the states - women who appreciate frugality are just too hard to find here, particularly the non-hippie type.
You might be a hipster without knowing it. It gradually happened to me over about 3 years. One day people just started telling me "GOD you're such a hipster", and that was that.
Haha, now you're scaring me! I don't buy into any of that new-age/religious stuff though, and while I don't mind helping the environment, it's not like it's my number one goal in life or anything. Maybe I'm a part-time hipster?
And I really like what you're saying, but it's even harder to find these people as someone in their mid-twenties. Everyone says I'm "very mature for my age" or "way ahead of my age" - few people of either gender seem to want a longer-term relationship at all. I've got to say the OP is fortunate - being older at least more women are looking for a serious relationship.
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Hey OP, sorry to hear you're going through this tough spot. But as someone who's been-there-done-that, I can tell you that even though this is a hard and scary time, it is a time of amazing opportunity. You have the opportunity to find someone else special, or to date 1,000 women if you want, or none at all. Here's my advice that I sincerely hope you will take to heart, because some of your (understandable but misplaced) concerns expressed in your post suggest you will gain a lot from it:
Google "cocky/funny" or "David D'Angelo". You will learn that the car you drive, the fact that you are retired early, and everything else is either immaterial or can be used to your benefit.
Here's the correct answer to the "What do you do for a living?" question:
"I'm a stunt man. Have you seen those movies where the hot actor has to show his bare ass, and they bring in a body double? That's me."
That's the attitude you want to convey. And that answer will invite further conversation and questions, like "Really, what do you actually do?" Then you say, "No really -- haven't you seen that in movies? Someone's got to do it, and it's me." You're being funny, creating attraction, keeping the entertaining conversation going, and creating mystery about your REAL occupation (which is already plenty interesting and can be revealed in due time). This is just one example, but it shows how the key to attracting women has just about nothing to do with the kind of car you drive, and everything to do with your attitude and presentation and being an interesting person.
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Hey OP, sorry to hear you're going through this tough spot. But as someone who's been-there-done-that, I can tell you that even though this is a hard and scary time, it is a time of amazing opportunity. You have the opportunity to find someone else special, or to date 1,000 women if you want, or none at all. Here's my advice that I sincerely hope you will take to heart, because some of your (understandable but misplaced) concerns expressed in your post suggest you will gain a lot from it:
Google "cocky/funny" or "David D'Angelo". You will learn that the car you drive, the fact that you are retired early, and everything else is either immaterial or can be used to your benefit.
Here's the correct answer to the "What do you do for a living?" question:
"I'm a stunt man. Have you seen those movies where the hot actor has to show his bare ass, and they bring in a body double? That's me."
That's the attitude you want to convey. And that answer will invite further conversation and questions, like "Really, what do you actually do?" Then you say, "No really -- haven't you seen that in movies? Someone's got to do it, and it's me." You're being funny, creating attraction, keeping the entertaining conversation going, and creating mystery about your REAL occupation (which is already plenty interesting and can be revealed in due time). This is just one example, but it shows how the key to attracting women has just about nothing to do with the kind of car you drive, and everything to do with your attitude and presentation and being an interesting person.
So basically, rather than "being yourself", be fake? Besides, I wouldn't want to date a woman who would fall for such a ploy. If you're asked such a simple question and can't even give a straight answer, it says a lot about you.
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Oh, and for "What do you do?" I'd stick with "Investor".
I'm not FIRE quite yet, but I answer "As little as possible" and women (and guys) usually laugh (and if they don't, they don't have a sense of humor). Then I just say "Actually, I'm not as lazy as that sounds, I run, play tennis, tutor kids, play volleyball, etc etc". Often, convo just flows to those topics, sometimes it goes back to occupation and then I answer it seriously.
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So basically, rather than "being yourself", be fake? Besides, I wouldn't want to date a woman who would fall for such a ploy. If you're asked such a simple question and can't even give a straight answer, it says a lot about you.
So it seems you're one of the people I refer to as not having a sense of humor.
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Start in "Meetups and Social Events" to get to know your fellow mustachians, and get out and meet people. When you're really ready to date, and have let go of the chip you're carrying, check out "Mustachian and Single" to see if there are like minded women that you might date.
Believe it or not, there are actually women out that don't care what you drive or what you do for a living as long as you're a good person, can take care of yourself financially, and treat them respectfully. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, many men in your situation are "generally" looking for someone much younger, that they can "mold" and have more children with- which also begets the need for financial support. It is a rare middle-aged man who is interested in women his age group. Food for thought. Good luck.
+1
I'd advise against dating until you can have multiple dates without mentioning the cheating/being burned. (I say this from experience. I dated someone long-term that cheated on me...lied about basic elements of his life...and later, cheated on his wife with the wife of his best friend... I didn't date for well over a year after this.) Everyone's got a bad story there, but you don't want to lead with it. Lead and focus on the positives - on you and in them. Don't advertise your money but don't lie either. You can evade initially, until you know the person better (e.g. "I keep myself busy, but let's avoid the overused standard "date" questions. Tell me about..."). Best of all is getting to know people through an activity before you start dating, so you know their character.
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So basically, rather than "being yourself", be fake? Besides, I wouldn't want to date a woman who would fall for such a ploy. If you're asked such a simple question and can't even give a straight answer, it says a lot about you.
So it seems you're one of the people I refer to as not having a sense of humor.
I have a sense of humor, but I agree with Beric01. Giving a vague answer (I'm an investor) is different than alluding the question. I may find the stunt man story amusing, but it doesn't mean I'll continue to date a person.
I dated a man for several months last year. He was between jobs, but not really looking. He had some rental income and savings and was looking into a career change. I was totally ok with this, but then again, I'm onboard with that life in general. When meeting new people he generally said he worked in real estate or was a real estate investor.
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It would irritate me if a guy gave BS/nonsense answers to serious and important questions. That would include answering "What do you do?" with "lion tamer" or the equivalent. "As little as possible" is legit though. As a person who hates dating, if I ever found myself in the position of having to go through it again, I would be trying to assess compatibility asap.
Oh, and by the way, look for any local meetups geared towards retirement, FI, or Mustachianism in your area - we have a small but growing group in Vancouver that meets regularly.
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So basically, rather than "being yourself", be fake? Besides, I wouldn't want to date a woman who would fall for such a ploy. If you're asked such a simple question and can't even give a straight answer, it says a lot about you.
So it seems you're one of the people I refer to as not having a sense of humor.
I can definitely make people laugh. I just don't see any reason to have it be through means of such stupid, long-winded answers. Zikoris's answer of "as little as possible" also is fine by me, as long as it follows with your real occupation soon after. One can inject humor into a conversation without turning it into a conversation completely devoid of content.
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Luck12's answer of "as little as possible" also is fine by me, as long as it follows with your real occupation soon after. One can inject humor into a conversation without turning it into a conversation completely devoid of content.
Fixed it for you. That answer is all mine and copyrighted.
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I would avoid giving a coy answer, generally if someone sees someone in their 40s that isn't working, their first impression will be that they are unemployed. I would tell them the truth, that you are retired. Yes you will get people wondering how that happened, but that gives you an opportunity to tell them about yourself and then gives you an opportunity to talk to them. Some will think that either you inherited money, that you started a company that got sold for millions, or that you were hit and got a huge insurance settlement, wait until you tell that you instead saved up money and lived wisely to where you don't need to work!
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Hey OP, sorry to hear you're going through this tough spot. But as someone who's been-there-done-that, I can tell you that even though this is a hard and scary time, it is a time of amazing opportunity. You have the opportunity to find someone else special, or to date 1,000 women if you want, or none at all. Here's my advice that I sincerely hope you will take to heart, because some of your (understandable but misplaced) concerns expressed in your post suggest you will gain a lot from it:
Google "cocky/funny" or "David D'Angelo". You will learn that the car you drive, the fact that you are retired early, and everything else is either immaterial or can be used to your benefit.
Here's the correct answer to the "What do you do for a living?" question:
"I'm a stunt man. Have you seen those movies where the hot actor has to show his bare ass, and they bring in a body double? That's me."
That's the attitude you want to convey. And that answer will invite further conversation and questions, like "Really, what do you actually do?" Then you say, "No really -- haven't you seen that in movies? Someone's got to do it, and it's me." You're being funny, creating attraction, keeping the entertaining conversation going, and creating mystery about your REAL occupation (which is already plenty interesting and can be revealed in due time). This is just one example, but it shows how the key to attracting women has just about nothing to do with the kind of car you drive, and everything to do with your attitude and presentation and being an interesting person.
meh, all this alpha male / cocky-funny / pick up artist stuff is just a reasonably convincing way of pretending to be a regular interesting & confident person. I guess if you pretend long enough you become it, but I've always thought doing some actual self-discovery was more effective.
FWIW I think joking answers are fine if you don't have anything better to say... but when your date asks you a second time what you do, you ought to be able to take the cue that he or she would like a little more serious of an answer. I would consider anything else at that point to be incredibly insulting. In the example above, the person being asked doesn't simply try to avoid answering the question, they refuse to answer it. That sound like the action of neither a confident nor trustworthy person IMO.
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Thanks everyone for your perspective.
I should have been more clear as to time frame and situation. I have not seen my ex wife in well over a year, and have been dating since that time. Been divorced since December, and currently have a SO who is very in-line with my philosophy, personality, (and old cars *smile*). I now carry little if any emotional baggage from my marriage, though at the time the insane levels of deceit, betrayal, emotional rape, and psychopathy on her part was nearly fatal to me, and nearly so for my beautiful, kind daughter. For you folks who have never been the victim of remorseless, even absurdly sadistic infidelity, especially the long term kind I suffered through, I pray you NEVER even come close to it.
Everyone I met/dated was from online, and at the time I had a job, so the "what do you do" question was not an issue, even with what may have seemed a low status job. I know and have experienced very kind, non-materialistic, like minded women, which did and does give me hope! I'm generally an introvert, although I come across at times as very extroverted (classic INFJ personality), never portray myself as anything but me, and simply wonder what it is like to date when in the situation of FIRE which is so new to me. I'm not trying to sabotage my current relationship, but lately I have seen a few issues that I have discussed with her that may necessitate a break-up, and I appreciate the help given. Thank you!
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Hey OP, sorry to hear you're going through this tough spot. But as someone who's been-there-done-that, I can tell you that even though this is a hard and scary time, it is a time of amazing opportunity. You have the opportunity to find someone else special, or to date 1,000 women if you want, or none at all. Here's my advice that I sincerely hope you will take to heart, because some of your (understandable but misplaced) concerns expressed in your post suggest you will gain a lot from it:
Google "cocky/funny" or "David D'Angelo". You will learn that the car you drive, the fact that you are retired early, and everything else is either immaterial or can be used to your benefit.
Here's the correct answer to the "What do you do for a living?" question:
"I'm a stunt man. Have you seen those movies where the hot actor has to show his bare ass, and they bring in a body double? That's me."
That's the attitude you want to convey. And that answer will invite further conversation and questions, like "Really, what do you actually do?" Then you say, "No really -- haven't you seen that in movies? Someone's got to do it, and it's me." You're being funny, creating attraction, keeping the entertaining conversation going, and creating mystery about your REAL occupation (which is already plenty interesting and can be revealed in due time). This is just one example, but it shows how the key to attracting women has just about nothing to do with the kind of car you drive, and everything to do with your attitude and presentation and being an interesting person.
meh, all this alpha male / cocky-funny / pick up artist stuff is just a reasonably convincing way of pretending to be a regular interesting & confident person. I guess if you pretend long enough you become it, but I've always thought doing some actual self-discovery was more effective.
I'm sure these kinds of tactics do work - on a certain type of woman. I'm not interested in that kind of woman. Any woman who can't see through the game deserves the guy they end up with, and likewise the guy with the girl. I see these types of guys all the time, and it's pretty obvious they're just putting on a show - just let them do as they will.
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Oh, and for "What do you do?" I'd stick with "Investor".
I don't know, "Investor" kind of turns me off. I envision Wall Street wanna-be's, power ties and brief cases made of real Alligator skin, gold Rolexes, and shiny new leased Jags, ranting "greed is good!!!" to everyone. Probably not the image the OP wants to project :-)!
For me, as a single (divorced) FIRE'd female I'm just direct and honest and think the OP (or anyone in that situation) should probably just be upfront and say something like - "I live pretty modestly and am able to get by on a small (pension, investment income, trust fund, part time work, whatever) so retired while I was young to________" fill in the blank. If a woman (or man in my case) shares those same values then great, if not then I am happy to not have wasted any time on someone who doesn't share the same goals - or is at least OK with the way I live my life - and he [probably feels the same. Of course I'm single and NOT looking (at least not for a permanent partner - and I am VERY upfront about that) so in my case the long term financial/lifestyle stuff doesn't matter as much. As long as he is OK with just doing simple fun things like a hike or bike ride (and many guys are) then I don't really care about the money-stuff very much.
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Hey OP, sorry to hear you're going through this tough spot. But as someone who's been-there-done-that, I can tell you that even though this is a hard and scary time, it is a time of amazing opportunity. You have the opportunity to find someone else special, or to date 1,000 women if you want, or none at all. Here's my advice that I sincerely hope you will take to heart, because some of your (understandable but misplaced) concerns expressed in your post suggest you will gain a lot from it:
Google "cocky/funny" or "David D'Angelo". You will learn that the car you drive, the fact that you are retired early, and everything else is either immaterial or can be used to your benefit.
Here's the correct answer to the "What do you do for a living?" question:
"I'm a stunt man. Have you seen those movies where the hot actor has to show his bare ass, and they bring in a body double? That's me."
That's the attitude you want to convey. And that answer will invite further conversation and questions, like "Really, what do you actually do?" Then you say, "No really -- haven't you seen that in movies? Someone's got to do it, and it's me." You're being funny, creating attraction, keeping the entertaining conversation going, and creating mystery about your REAL occupation (which is already plenty interesting and can be revealed in due time). This is just one example, but it shows how the key to attracting women has just about nothing to do with the kind of car you drive, and everything to do with your attitude and presentation and being an interesting person.
meh, all this alpha male / cocky-funny / pick up artist stuff is just a reasonably convincing way of pretending to be a regular interesting & confident person. I guess if you pretend long enough you become it, but I've always thought doing some actual self-discovery was more effective.
I'm sure these kinds of tactics do work - on a certain type of woman. I'm not interested in that kind of woman. Any woman who can't see through the game deserves the guy they end up with, and likewise the guy with the girl. I see these types of guys all the time, and it's pretty obvious they're just putting on a show - just let them do as they will.
The David Deangelo guy always creeped me how. But, I hate to say it, it generally works on a very significant % of women, including frugal, intellegent type. Just don't over do it and always remember you are just joking around.
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Hey OP, sorry to hear you're going through this tough spot. But as someone who's been-there-done-that, I can tell you that even though this is a hard and scary time, it is a time of amazing opportunity. You have the opportunity to find someone else special, or to date 1,000 women if you want, or none at all. Here's my advice that I sincerely hope you will take to heart, because some of your (understandable but misplaced) concerns expressed in your post suggest you will gain a lot from it:
Google "cocky/funny" or "David D'Angelo". You will learn that the car you drive, the fact that you are retired early, and everything else is either immaterial or can be used to your benefit.
Here's the correct answer to the "What do you do for a living?" question:
"I'm a stunt man. Have you seen those movies where the hot actor has to show his bare ass, and they bring in a body double? That's me."
That's the attitude you want to convey. And that answer will invite further conversation and questions, like "Really, what do you actually do?" Then you say, "No really -- haven't you seen that in movies? Someone's got to do it, and it's me." You're being funny, creating attraction, keeping the entertaining conversation going, and creating mystery about your REAL occupation (which is already plenty interesting and can be revealed in due time). This is just one example, but it shows how the key to attracting women has just about nothing to do with the kind of car you drive, and everything to do with your attitude and presentation and being an interesting person.
meh, all this alpha male / cocky-funny / pick up artist stuff is just a reasonably convincing way of pretending to be a regular interesting & confident person. I guess if you pretend long enough you become it, but I've always thought doing some actual self-discovery was more effective.
I'm sure these kinds of tactics do work - on a certain type of woman. I'm not interested in that kind of woman. Any woman who can't see through the game deserves the guy they end up with, and likewise the guy with the girl. I see these types of guys all the time, and it's pretty obvious they're just putting on a show - just let them do as they will.
I think you're misunderstanding. It's not that you're not giving a straight answer, it's that you're turning a first date from an interview to something relaxing and casual. Women don't like boring and straight - they like a bit of unpredictableness. I don't know why you have to be condescending about the whole thing. "tactics", "certain type of woman", etc.
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Hey OP, sorry to hear you're going through this tough spot. But as someone who's been-there-done-that, I can tell you that even though this is a hard and scary time, it is a time of amazing opportunity. You have the opportunity to find someone else special, or to date 1,000 women if you want, or none at all. Here's my advice that I sincerely hope you will take to heart, because some of your (understandable but misplaced) concerns expressed in your post suggest you will gain a lot from it:
Google "cocky/funny" or "David D'Angelo". You will learn that the car you drive, the fact that you are retired early, and everything else is either immaterial or can be used to your benefit.
Here's the correct answer to the "What do you do for a living?" question:
"I'm a stunt man. Have you seen those movies where the hot actor has to show his bare ass, and they bring in a body double? That's me."
That's the attitude you want to convey. And that answer will invite further conversation and questions, like "Really, what do you actually do?" Then you say, "No really -- haven't you seen that in movies? Someone's got to do it, and it's me." You're being funny, creating attraction, keeping the entertaining conversation going, and creating mystery about your REAL occupation (which is already plenty interesting and can be revealed in due time). This is just one example, but it shows how the key to attracting women has just about nothing to do with the kind of car you drive, and everything to do with your attitude and presentation and being an interesting person.
meh, all this alpha male / cocky-funny / pick up artist stuff is just a reasonably convincing way of pretending to be a regular interesting & confident person. I guess if you pretend long enough you become it, but I've always thought doing some actual self-discovery was more effective.
I'm sure these kinds of tactics do work - on a certain type of woman. I'm not interested in that kind of woman. Any woman who can't see through the game deserves the guy they end up with, and likewise the guy with the girl. I see these types of guys all the time, and it's pretty obvious they're just putting on a show - just let them do as they will.
The sad thing is, it works on a large percentage and all types of women. (Who will of course will always deny that is does work on them.) They even marry these people, and then contribute to the outstanding divorce rate when they wake up to how fake the person is or how incompatible they are.
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Thought I might throw in this paper as it relates to Mustachianism: Male Financial Consumption is Associated with Higher Mating Intentions and Mating Success (http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP06603612.pdf).
Males who have higher mating intentions may maximize their economic displays, saving little and even spending beyond their capacity through the use of credit. These men may seek and possibly obtain a greater number of sexual partners. This hypothesis was tested in a randomly selected community sample of men aged 18-45 included in a telephone health interview. The degree of financial consumption was directly related to future mating intentions and past mating success, even when accounting for age, years of education completed, and marital status.
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Hey OP, sorry to hear you're going through this tough spot. But as someone who's been-there-done-that, I can tell you that even though this is a hard and scary time, it is a time of amazing opportunity. You have the opportunity to find someone else special, or to date 1,000 women if you want, or none at all. Here's my advice that I sincerely hope you will take to heart, because some of your (understandable but misplaced) concerns expressed in your post suggest you will gain a lot from it:
Google "cocky/funny" or "David D'Angelo". You will learn that the car you drive, the fact that you are retired early, and everything else is either immaterial or can be used to your benefit.
Here's the correct answer to the "What do you do for a living?" question:
"I'm a stunt man. Have you seen those movies where the hot actor has to show his bare ass, and they bring in a body double? That's me."
That's the attitude you want to convey. And that answer will invite further conversation and questions, like "Really, what do you actually do?" Then you say, "No really -- haven't you seen that in movies? Someone's got to do it, and it's me." You're being funny, creating attraction, keeping the entertaining conversation going, and creating mystery about your REAL occupation (which is already plenty interesting and can be revealed in due time). This is just one example, but it shows how the key to attracting women has just about nothing to do with the kind of car you drive, and everything to do with your attitude and presentation and being an interesting person.
meh, all this alpha male / cocky-funny / pick up artist stuff is just a reasonably convincing way of pretending to be a regular interesting & confident person. I guess if you pretend long enough you become it, but I've always thought doing some actual self-discovery was more effective.
I'm sure these kinds of tactics do work - on a certain type of woman. I'm not interested in that kind of woman. Any woman who can't see through the game deserves the guy they end up with, and likewise the guy with the girl. I see these types of guys all the time, and it's pretty obvious they're just putting on a show - just let them do as they will.
The sad thing is, it works on a large percentage and all types of women. (Who will of course will always deny that is does work on them.) They even marry these people, and then contribute to the outstanding divorce rate when they wake up to how fake the person is or how incompatible they are.
It's sad that people are attracted to humor?!? That's the strangest statement I've ever seen. I'm certain that it would be effective. Look at any list of what partners want from the other and guaranteed top 3 if not #1 is a sense of humor.
Is it the method of communication here? Because if this was said to you in person, I can almost guarantee you and everyone else would be laughing. Like aphalite mentioned above, it moves the first date from an "interview" type situation into a much more casual and comfortable atmosphere. Honestly, it's pretty brilliant.
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Thanks aphalite, okashira, and Eric. You guys nailed it.
I really don't get all the outrage over using humor and confidence to improve one's prospects in dating or attracting members of the opposite sex, and calling it "tactics" and "fake." You might as well express similar outrage over advice to be likable, have manners, and be confident at work in order to improve one's career prospects.
Here's another thing: Advice that can be boiled down to "be yourself" ignores the potential that "being yourself" may actually be horrible advice. Some people are socially inept. Many guys have no clue how to actually approach and talk to women, or they have misguided ideas (such as that "being nice" will be successful). Telling them to "be yourself" may be essentially sentencing them to a lifetime of failure and loneliness. It doesn't mean someone has to be fake -- they can learn how to converse, to create attraction, and to do interesting things so they actually are interesting and have something to talk about
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Thanks aphalite, okashira, and Eric. You guys nailed it.
I really don't get all the outrage over using humor and confidence to improve one's prospects in dating or attracting members of the opposite sex, and calling it "tactics" and "fake." You might as well express similar outrage over advice to be likable, have manners, and be confident at work in order to improve one's career prospects.
Here's another thing: Advice that can be boiled down to "be yourself" ignores the potential that "being yourself" may actually be horrible advice. Some people are socially inept. Many guys have no clue how to actually approach and talk to women, or they have misguided ideas (such as that "being nice" will be successful). Telling them to "be yourself" may be essentially sentencing them to a lifetime of failure and loneliness. It doesn't mean someone has to be fake -- they can learn how to converse, to create attraction, and to do interesting things so they actually are interesting and have something to talk about
And here is the crux of the situation. It takes hard work to get into a relationship. But notice what's going on here? It takes hard work for a single gender. Let me ask the question: why is this day of supposed gender equality in everything else, is all of the work in dating still put on men's shoulders? Why do men need to initiate and women get to decide?
I could play the game. Read every book and attend every seminar on "attracting women". Go out on town one night, talk to 100 women, and hope that increases my odds. But what do women need to do in the same situations? Just respond, just choose which of the countless men out there that approach them that they are interested in. This is just as true on dating sites as anywhere else.
To me it looks like I need to put in as much effort into dating as to getting an education. That just sounds like too much work. And frankly, I'm just not that desperate. For me, a relationship would be nice to have. For a women who thinks a relationship would be nice to have, all she needs to do is go on a date when a guy asks her, accept future dates, and boom, she's in a relationship. For me as a guy, I need to compete against all of the other guys who are out there, just desperate for a relationship, and are putting all of this effort into researching the "science of attracting women".
Add in my bit of idealism that women are actually human beings, and shouldn't just be calculated down to a science, and you have the clear solution: why even bother?
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I get so annoyed when people ask what I do. As if your employment is all you do.
Anyway, if someone asks "What do you do?" I think a clever reply is "In the event of what?" :)
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Oh, and for "What do you do?" I'd stick with "Investor".
Even I would judge you harshly is your profession was "investor" and you rolled up in a beat up car.
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Thanks aphalite, okashira, and Eric. You guys nailed it.
I really don't get all the outrage over using humor and confidence to improve one's prospects in dating or attracting members of the opposite sex, and calling it "tactics" and "fake." You might as well express similar outrage over advice to be likable, have manners, and be confident at work in order to improve one's career prospects.
Here's another thing: Advice that can be boiled down to "be yourself" ignores the potential that "being yourself" may actually be horrible advice. Some people are socially inept. Many guys have no clue how to actually approach and talk to women, or they have misguided ideas (such as that "being nice" will be successful). Telling them to "be yourself" may be essentially sentencing them to a lifetime of failure and loneliness. It doesn't mean someone has to be fake -- they can learn how to converse, to create attraction, and to do interesting things so they actually are interesting and have something to talk about
And here is the crux of the situation. It takes hard work to get into a relationship. But notice what's going on here? It takes hard work for a single gender. Let me ask the question: why is this day of supposed gender equality in everything else, is all of the work in dating still put on men's shoulders? Why do men need to initiate and women get to decide?
I could play the game. Read every book and attend every seminar on "attracting women". Go out on town one night, talk to 100 women, and hope that increases my odds. But what do women need to do in the same situations? Just respond, just choose which of the countless men out there that approach them that they are interested in. This is just as true on dating sites as anywhere else.
To me it looks like I need to put in as much effort into dating as to getting an education. That just sounds like too much work. And frankly, I'm just not that desperate. For me, a relationship would be nice to have. For a women who thinks a relationship would be nice to have, all she needs to do is go on a date when a guy asks her, accept future dates, and boom, she's in a relationship. For me as a guy, I need to compete against all of the other guys who are out there, just desperate for a relationship, and are putting all of this effort into researching the "science of attracting women".
Add in my bit of idealism that women are actually human beings, and shouldn't just be calculated down to a science, and you have the clear solution: why even bother?
While you're complaining about "needing" to be the one who initiates, there are plenty of woman who are complaining about the responses they get when they initiate. I've had close male friends report that they will not go on a date with a woman who asks them out because her "aggressiveness" clearly means she's desperate (their words). I've also had men respond poorly when I (a woman) ask them out. Our society has some serious issues with regards to gender/dating/experience/etc., and it does a major disservice to people on both sides of the equation.
Frankly, I think that's why the wide word of internet dating is nice. Easier to weed through the jerks or (as in your case, perhaps) the passivity. Because good partners who hate all of the BS do exist.
But I agree that the "game" of attracting an opposite partner is stupid. Although I'm all for humor and making jokes to diffuse a situation, I think there's far more to be said about being genuine. If your genuine self is always cracking jokes, go for it. If not, don't make yourself into someone you're not. You may end up attracting more partners... but in a few months/years down the line, your incompatibility will eventually show through.
With all that said, there's nothing wrong with being happily single.
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Oh, and for "What do you do?" I'd stick with "Investor".
Even I would judge you harshly is your profession was "investor" and you rolled up in a beat up car.
well I guess they never said they were a "good" investor :-)!
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Thanks aphalite, okashira, and Eric. You guys nailed it.
I really don't get all the outrage over using humor and confidence to improve one's prospects in dating or attracting members of the opposite sex, and calling it "tactics" and "fake." You might as well express similar outrage over advice to be likable, have manners, and be confident at work in order to improve one's career prospects.
Here's another thing: Advice that can be boiled down to "be yourself" ignores the potential that "being yourself" may actually be horrible advice. Some people are socially inept. Many guys have no clue how to actually approach and talk to women, or they have misguided ideas (such as that "being nice" will be successful). Telling them to "be yourself" may be essentially sentencing them to a lifetime of failure and loneliness. It doesn't mean someone has to be fake -- they can learn how to converse, to create attraction, and to do interesting things so they actually are interesting and have something to talk about
And here is the crux of the situation. It takes hard work to get into a relationship. But notice what's going on here? It takes hard work for a single gender. Let me ask the question: why is this day of supposed gender equality in everything else, is all of the work in dating still put on men's shoulders? Why do men need to initiate and women get to decide?
I could play the game. Read every book and attend every seminar on "attracting women". Go out on town one night, talk to 100 women, and hope that increases my odds. But what do women need to do in the same situations? Just respond, just choose which of the countless men out there that approach them that they are interested in. This is just as true on dating sites as anywhere else.
To me it looks like I need to put in as much effort into dating as to getting an education. That just sounds like too much work. And frankly, I'm just not that desperate. For me, a relationship would be nice to have. For a women who thinks a relationship would be nice to have, all she needs to do is go on a date when a guy asks her, accept future dates, and boom, she's in a relationship. For me as a guy, I need to compete against all of the other guys who are out there, just desperate for a relationship, and are putting all of this effort into researching the "science of attracting women".
Add in my bit of idealism that women are actually human beings, and shouldn't just be calculated down to a science, and you have the clear solution: why even bother?
I don't know where you live but there are just as many women out there as men looking for partners. Dating shouldn't be a one sided, and some women do make the first move. Unfortunately, many men see them as forward, or loose when in fact they are putting themselves out there risking rejection as well. Men are not the only ones who have work at relationships. If people really were themselves and didn't pretend to be someone they really aren't we would all be better off. I see people waste 6-12 months faking it, only to spend another year getting to know the real person, then finding out they were incompatible from the start.
To OP it is clear you are already planning your next steps before you're even out of the current relationship. I think if you found out your SO had posted the same questions that you did, you'd be butt hurt and indignant. Just an observation.
As for the what do you do question, what DO you do? As little as possible is acceptable, but "I'm a Mustachian" would be a nice ice breaker and let you get a feel for compatibility,
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This is an interesting topic because maybe just 5 years ago, if I would have met a guy that said he was retired in his 20s or 30s I may have thought several things:
1. He's a slacker
2. He's looking for a sugar momma (and this seems to be happening more these days)
3. He may have been fired and unable to keep a job, and who knows what personality traits lead to this (i.e., is he relationship material)
Now in my 40s and of a somewhat new mindset and openness to FIRE, my new view would be:
1. Cool, how did you accomplish that?
2. Cool, I'll have a similar soul to do fun stuff in FIRE with (slow travel, low-key and interesting activities)
3. Cool, if this works out I can cut my expenses even further by sharing housing, etc.
So now, the shoe's on the other foot because *I* am the one that plans to FIRE and am worried about what guys would think. Will they think I am a slacker, looking for a sugar daddy, or have personality flaws that prevent me from holding a job and/or being a good partner?
Interesting how my perspective has changed. Although I still think the age at which one FIREs may make a difference. Doing it in your 20s and 30s raises suspicions, but doing it in your 40s and 50s demands respect. Not that successfully FIREing in your 20s and 30s doesn't demand respect, but I would be suspicious if they were really FIRE or just unemployed and hiding something about themselves.
EDIT: I wanted to add that I've always been a fairly frugal person and loved investing topics. I wasn't super frugal or anything, but a lot more than my peers. So the early retired comment from a youngish guy would just send off red flag alarms to be careful about. It's a wild and crazy world out there, so anyone that doesn't seem to fit the regular mold would initially get this reaction from me. Now I may know better. But not everyone out there calling themselves early retired may be exactly what you think that term means. Of course, I wouldn't want a guy that is totally immersed in debt either. Or a workaholic. I guess I *am* picky after all.
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Oh, and for "What do you do?" I'd stick with "Investor".
Even I would judge you harshly is your profession was "investor" and you rolled up in a beat up car.
How about a beat up bike? No car here!
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As far as trying to answer the question of "what you do" seriously and honestly for potential mates, I wish there was a word to combine all of the little individual things you do that help keep you in this low-expense lifestyle - like an investor, financial advisor/planner, chef, cyclist, handy man/woman, travel agent (to get good deals), house cleaner, auto mechanic (if you fix your own cars), social director, etc.
If this was a valid answer if you were doing this stuff for other people and getting paid for doing it, why can't we answer the question the same way if we are doing it for ourselves and getting paid in the sense of lowering our costs?
And I suppose some people get paid to be a life coach...well you are your own life coach.
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...
My current plan is when I FIRE (very early 30's) to move to a cheaper COL country (Southeast Asia) where I actually would be decently-well to do with my FIRE income. Women in Asia are just more frugal than in America. I'm not going to try to change someone living here in the states - women who appreciate frugality are just too hard to find here, particularly the non-hippie type.
SE Asia is full of status flashing. Plenty of women will happily spend your 'stache on Prada et al.
Sometimes I feel it is worse than the US, and I wonder whether it will be the culture's undoing.
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A first date is kind of an interview -- both people are trying to figure out whether they want to see this person again. For me, glib evasive answers are telling me "no". Likewise telling me I have no sense of humour if I don't find you funny. So, it's probably good that there are people doing those things and speeding up Getting To No. :-)
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Thanks aphalite, okashira, and Eric. You guys nailed it.
I really don't get all the outrage over using humor and confidence to improve one's prospects in dating or attracting members of the opposite sex, and calling it "tactics" and "fake." You might as well express similar outrage over advice to be likable, have manners, and be confident at work in order to improve one's career prospects.
Here's another thing: Advice that can be boiled down to "be yourself" ignores the potential that "being yourself" may actually be horrible advice. Some people are socially inept. Many guys have no clue how to actually approach and talk to women, or they have misguided ideas (such as that "being nice" will be successful). Telling them to "be yourself" may be essentially sentencing them to a lifetime of failure and loneliness. It doesn't mean someone has to be fake -- they can learn how to converse, to create attraction, and to do interesting things so they actually are interesting and have something to talk about
I totally see how and why the cocky funny thing works. However, I found it nearly impossible to pull off when I was dating in situations where it would've been useful. The problem for me is that I sort of clam up around a woman im very attracted to.
With people I'm only semi attracted to, it was pretty easy but I found that it didn't really matter. Just being calm and confident was enough - which was natural in those cases. But those experiences didn't translate into more confidence around women that I was very attracted to.
I also found that most people were good at dishing it back. So if you're going to do it you better be able to keep up.
The key is to be outcome agnostic and never get ahead of yourself. I have a bad habit of falling hard and fast for women I like. And as soon as that happens you're screwed. In every case in my life where that's happened, a break up/rejection/etc came very soon after.
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A first date is kind of an interview -- both people are trying to figure out whether they want to see this person again. For me, glib evasive answers are telling me "no". Likewise telling me I have no sense of humour if I don't find you funny. So, it's probably good that there are people doing those things and speeding up Getting To No. :-)
Agreed on that count! Can't imagine dating someone who doesn't share the same sense of humor - can you imagine filling in all of the time and days you would spend together in the future without silly jokes?
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OP - have you posted this on the "Single & Mustashian" forum?
I formerly went to a lot of meetups (meetup.com), but attend less and less frequently - not finding what I'm after either.
I have a 'standard' profile on OKCupid, that leads off with humor, and goes from there. First line:
"Great guy with sense of humor, killer body and money to burn seeks woman who doesn't believe everything she reads"
I'm also starting a 'mustashian' profile - probably call it "FIRE Weirdness", it will contain some of the brilliant thoughts found on the 'Single & Mustashian' forum put into my own words:
"Mustashian on my 2nd run at Financial Independence - goal: 3.5 years
I know I won't change who I am for another person, but part of love is the willingness to explore, and find the common ground we can romp through together, maybe even kicking some leaves around from time to time. We may value different things, but as long as we can collaborate on things we can agree on for 'mutual mischief', we'll probably be okay.
Thriftshop is more than a Macklemore song - it's a wardrobe, and decorating source. And Craigslist is my 'storage unit'. Travel means wanting to collect the National Parks, whether that's from a tent (air mattress - no cold hard ground for this guy) or old VW bus. Shoestring budget when possible, but will pay for value. Rice & beans are my 'go to' - the disastrous environmental impact of factory meat farming, and the disastrous health effects of animal fat on my heart arteries has made me a 'mostly vegan' for the past few years... never felt healthier.
Deal breakers: addiction (smoking, alcohol, gambling, drugs), jesus freaks, and angry people.
There is no algorithm for love. If there is, it's something we write for ourselves - not the robots at OKC or PlentyOfFish, or Match, Tinder, etc.
Well adjusted weirdo looking for same - for someone whose weirdness is compatible / complementary with my weirdness, and we can combine those weirdnesses into a whole new level of weirdness, and call it love.
I've changed over time. We all change over time. Sometimes a lot. You will change too. It's more important to find someone I can change, take dance lessons, and GROW with than someone who is an exact match to the person I am today. It took me a couple years (ok, more than a couple) to get to where I am today, and I'm not finished yet.
Wanna come along for the ride, and see & do new stuff on the way?"
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It's sad that people are attracted to humor?!? That's the strangest statement I've ever seen. I'm certain that it would be effective. Look at any list of what partners want from the other and guaranteed top 3 if not #1 is a sense of humor.
Is it the method of communication here? Because if this was said to you in person, I can almost guarantee you and everyone else would be laughing. Like aphalite mentioned above, it moves the first date from an "interview" type situation into a much more casual and comfortable atmosphere. Honestly, it's pretty brilliant.
Sorry for the confusion? But not humor... humor is good. I meant "pick up artist stuff," or playing games.
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As far as trying to answer the question of "what you do" seriously and honestly for potential mates, I wish there was a word to combine all of the little individual things you do that help keep you in this low-expense lifestyle - like an investor, financial advisor/planner, chef, cyclist, handy man/woman, travel agent (to get good deals), house cleaner, auto mechanic (if you fix your own cars), social director, etc.
If this was a valid answer if you were doing this stuff for other people and getting paid for doing it, why can't we answer the question the same way if we are doing it for ourselves and getting paid in the sense of lowering our costs?
And I suppose some people get paid to be a life coach...well you are your own life coach.
I am not FI, but am using mustacian principles to allow me to spend less so I can stay home with my son rather than work. Let me just say that many other stay at home moms I have met are EXTREMELY SENSITIVE to people not using the word "job" or "work" for what they do. That's because they are having the very same frustrations. I don't know if there is a good way of addressing it with people because the whole stay-at-home-mom set has been around for awhile and as a group still have not found a way to phrase it without other people making stupid/incorrect assumptions.
I often get people scoffing at my stay-at-home-mom gig myself. I really wish our society would put more stock in people taking care of tasks themselves, but the focus seems to just be on the kind of money you make on a monthly basis from your steady 9-5 employment.
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As far as trying to answer the question of "what you do" seriously and honestly for potential mates, I wish there was a word to combine all of the little individual things you do that help keep you in this low-expense lifestyle - like an investor, financial advisor/planner, chef, cyclist, handy man/woman, travel agent (to get good deals), house cleaner, auto mechanic (if you fix your own cars), social director, etc.
If this was a valid answer if you were doing this stuff for other people and getting paid for doing it, why can't we answer the question the same way if we are doing it for ourselves and getting paid in the sense of lowering our costs?
And I suppose some people get paid to be a life coach...well you are your own life coach.
I am not FI, but am using mustacian principles to allow me to spend less so I can stay home with my son rather than work. Let me just say that many other stay at home moms I have met are EXTREMELY SENSITIVE to people not using the word "job" or "work" for what they do. That's because they are having the very same frustrations. I don't know if there is a good way of addressing it with people because the whole stay-at-home-mom set has been around for awhile and as a group still have not found a way to phrase it without other people making stupid/incorrect assumptions.
I often get people scoffing at my stay-at-home-mom gig myself. I really wish our society would put more stock in people taking care of tasks themselves, but the focus seems to just be on the kind of money you make on a monthly basis from your steady 9-5 employment.
My mom was a SAHM and she called herself a "domestic engineer". I think she started using this when two of her children became engineers. It does sound appropriate. It was great having her at home. I learned so much about cooking, financial planning (she raised 4 kids on the salary my dad made), time management (well I didn't learn this lesson too well), etc. And we always had her around to help us out.
I don't have children and have always worked so I haven't had this issue in defining "what I do" yet. On another thread, I came to the realization that maybe calling myself self-employed in FIRE might be good. I am my own venture capitalist (self funded), boss, employee, client - of my services. Hmmm...I wonder how that would work. I "run my own business".
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OP - have you posted this on the "Single & Mustashian" forum?
I formerly went to a lot of meetups (meetup.com), but attend less and less frequently - not finding what I'm after either.
I have a 'standard' profile on OKCupid, that leads off with humor, and goes from there. First line:
"Great guy with sense of humor, killer body and money to burn seeks woman who doesn't believe everything she reads"
I'm also starting a 'mustashian' profile - probably call it "FIRE Weirdness", it will contain some of the brilliant thoughts found on the 'Single & Mustashian' forum put into my own words:
"Mustashian on my 2nd run at Financial Independence - goal: 3.5 years
I know I won't change who I am for another person, but part of love is the willingness to explore, and find the common ground we can romp through together, maybe even kicking some leaves around from time to time. We may value different things, but as long as we can collaborate on things we can agree on for 'mutual mischief', we'll probably be okay.
Thriftshop is more than a Macklemore song - it's a wardrobe, and decorating source. And Craigslist is my 'storage unit'. Travel means wanting to collect the National Parks, whether that's from a tent (air mattress - no cold hard ground for this guy) or old VW bus. Shoestring budget when possible, but will pay for value. Rice & beans are my 'go to' - the disastrous environmental impact of factory meat farming, and the disastrous health effects of animal fat on my heart arteries has made me a 'mostly vegan' for the past few years... never felt healthier.
Deal breakers: addiction (smoking, alcohol, gambling, drugs), jesus freaks, and angry people.
There is no algorithm for love. If there is, it's something we write for ourselves - not the robots at OKC or PlentyOfFish, or Match, Tinder, etc.
Well adjusted weirdo looking for same - for someone whose weirdness is compatible / complementary with my weirdness, and we can combine those weirdnesses into a whole new level of weirdness, and call it love.
I've changed over time. We all change over time. Sometimes a lot. You will change too. It's more important to find someone I can change, take dance lessons, and GROW with than someone who is an exact match to the person I am today. It took me a couple years (ok, more than a couple) to get to where I am today, and I'm not finished yet.
Wanna come along for the ride, and see & do new stuff on the way?"
I love this! Awesome!
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Responding to the post about dating being hard work for men, not for women:
I'm a woman and I just quit dating (online and otherwise) because it required hard work, such as:
1. Respond to messages that say little. I'm not talking just about the ones that say, "Hey, 'sup?" Those ones I ignored. I was working hard to find a way to respond to a person that seemed decent but opened with something so lacking in substance I couldn't find much to say. Granted, I'm an introvert, a little Aspie, and not great at small talk. If they prefer opening with the latter, they're probably lucky to be weeding me out so easily! I was also immediately exhausted by indications that people wanted to start with an online back-and-forth, e.g., "So, you like to write...Me too." Oh. Ask me out. (And yes, where I'm interested, I do ask a guy out. Even if he opens with something tentative.)
2. Find people I have hope around. To do that, delete those from Not Here, delete the ones with "sup?", read all remaining profiles, delete the ones whose profiles are near-empty, delete the ones only looking for sex. That leaves almost no one, so start hunting through the local profiles and emailing people.
3. Arrange child care. Oy vey. Oh, now the guy needs to reschedule... Cancel child care, start again. Again, maybe they are feeling very happy/lucky to be weeding out the full-time parent?
4. Dress. That is, step outside of my norm of dressing however I feel like dressing in a moment. Maybe that's not even necessary. Cultural norms have been convincing me it is, but maybe on my next round I'll test that.
5. Have new pictures taken, because mine do not have enough skin exposed and makeup shimmering to attract attention amongst all the fancy chicks.
6. And here was one of the biggies, here was a thing I couldn't do any more of: Hold up more than half of the conversation. One really nice fellow emailed me after, "That was great... I feel we barely scratched the surface." And I felt like, "Oh man, I did! I scratched the surface, dug through the sediment, excavated... all to get the conversation going and holding." For him, it felt like a light, lovely, delightful conversation. For me, it felt like a ton of work to get us there. Now, I don't put this on him. He is an intelligent, sweet guy. Sometimes I ponder taking him up on his offer of a second date. What I realized is that I work hard on dates. I recently left a relationship in which I worked hard in every interaction, especially to create conversation. So, I am very weary and wary in that area right now. I think I shouldn't date until I have let go of my natural impulse to make the date so easy and lovely for the person across from me. I mean, I certainly want to help the other feel comfortable. But I was going too far. A codependent approach to first dates. And when a relationship starts there, where I am working this hard to support conversation, I'm terrified that four years later, I will still be doing that...while the guy is (referencing last relationship) wordlessly cheating on me.
7. Fending off unwanted physical contact. I'm a slow mover. I need to know someone and develop strong attraction before I want to be with them physically, and even when I get there I still want, god forbid, STI tests. The last guy I dated was ready for, um, way more from the first date. For seven dates I worked hard to keep him at bay.
In the end, I just thought, "Nah..." Maybe in some months I'll have some energy again.
re: "What do you do?"
I'm in the camp that would run fast from a guy who insisted (i.e., said twice) that he's [a stuntman, other untrue silly thing], but man, "In the event of?" would make me pee laughing and totally seal the deal for me! "Investor" would also suffice.
About everything else...
Yes, men and women into All Things Mustache are a minority, and even among those of us who are, there is actually quite a bit of variation and dissension, so it's not like Mustaches makes us inherently compatible. And my cheating beloved was super Mustache, so I've learned to prioritize things other than Mustachianism. A guy my age (40s) would need to be debt-free and have enough monthly income to cover his needs and a bit of luxury, but beyond that, I look for articulate, conversational, honest, faithful (in whatever context we define that together), hygienic, safety-conscious, law-abiding (yet creative), etc.
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Responding to the post about dating being hard work for men, not for women:
I'm a woman and I just quit dating (online and otherwise) because it required hard work, such as:
1. Respond to messages that say little. I'm not talking just about the ones that say, "Hey, 'sup?" Those ones I ignored. I was working hard to find a way to respond to a person that seemed decent but opened with something so lacking in substance I couldn't find much to say. Granted, I'm an introvert, a little Aspie, and not great at small talk. If they prefer opening with the latter, they're probably lucky to be weeding me out so easily! I was also immediately exhausted by indications that people wanted to start with an online back-and-forth, e.g., "So, you like to write...Me too." Oh. Ask me out. (And yes, where I'm interested, I do ask a guy out. Even if he opens with something tentative.)
2. Find people I have hope around. To do that, delete those from Not Here, delete the ones with "sup?", read all remaining profiles, delete the ones whose profiles are near-empty, delete the ones only looking for sex. That leaves almost no one, so start hunting through the local profiles and emailing people.
3. Arrange child care. Oy vey. Oh, now the guy needs to reschedule... Cancel child care, start again. Again, maybe they are feeling very happy/lucky to be weeding out the full-time parent?
4. Dress. That is, step outside of my norm of dressing however I feel like dressing in a moment. Maybe that's not even necessary. Cultural norms have been convincing me it is, but maybe on my next round I'll test that.
5. Have new pictures taken, because mine do not have enough skin exposed and makeup shimmering to attract attention amongst all the fancy chicks.
6. And here was one of the biggies, here was a thing I couldn't do any more of: Hold up more than half of the conversation. One really nice fellow emailed me after, "That was great... I feel we barely scratched the surface." And I felt like, "Oh man, I did! I scratched the surface, dug through the sediment, excavated... all to get the conversation going and holding." For him, it felt like a light, lovely, delightful conversation. For me, it felt like a ton of work to get us there. Now, I don't put this on him. He is an intelligent, sweet guy. Sometimes I ponder taking him up on his offer of a second date. What I realized is that I work hard on dates. I recently left a relationship in which I worked hard in every interaction, especially to create conversation. So, I am very weary and wary in that area right now. I think I shouldn't date until I have let go of my natural impulse to make the date so easy and lovely for the person across from me. I mean, I certainly want to help the other feel comfortable. But I was going too far. A codependent approach to first dates. And when a relationship starts there, where I am working this hard to support conversation, I'm terrified that four years later, I will still be doing that...while the guy is (referencing last relationship) wordlessly cheating on me.
7. Fending off unwanted physical contact. I'm a slow mover. I need to know someone and develop strong attraction before I want to be with them physically, and even when I get there I still want, god forbid, STI tests. The last guy I dated was ready for, um, way more from the first date. For seven dates I worked hard to keep him at bay.
In the end, I just thought, "Nah..." Maybe in some months I'll have some energy again.
re: "What do you do?"
I'm in the camp that would run fast from a guy who insisted (i.e., said twice) that he's [a stuntman, other untrue silly thing], but man, "In the event of?" would make me pee laughing and totally seal the deal for me! "Investor" would also suffice.
About everything else...
Yes, men and women into All Things Mustache are a minority, and even among those of us who are, there is actually quite a bit of variation and dissension, so it's not like Mustaches makes us inherently compatible. And my cheating beloved was super Mustache, so I've learned to prioritize things other than Mustachianism. A guy my age (40s) would need to be debt-free and have enough monthly income to cover his needs and a bit of luxury, but beyond that, I look for articulate, conversational, honest, faithful (in whatever context we define that together), hygienic, safety-conscious, law-abiding (yet creative), etc.
Basically, it sounds like you have to fend off unwanted sexual contact. Men don't have that problem. Men generally don't get any sexual contact unless they actively seek out women, talk to them, ask them on dates, and hope one of them will actually take them up on the offer. You sound like you're having to work to find decent guys. Men have to actively work to find any women at all. Guess who has it harder. (men) Guess who has more options, even without trying at all. (women)
It's a fundamentally imbalanced system. I basically now see it as dating economics 101. Men (on average) clearly must want women more than women want men, or men wouldn't need to do all of the work and take all of the risks (such as rejection). Basically, a woman must have higher expected value for a man than vice versa. It's very similar to finding a job - most people need to apply for a job, and companies select one person out of all that apply. The same thing happens for men and women.
The problem happens when you enter a man who wouldn't mind being in a relationship, but isn't desperate for one like many other men. Those other men are basically willing to pay a higher price for the women (with their time, effort, money, etc) than he is. Those men also date multiple women at once, reducing the available supply of women available for other men. And there you have the problem: if a man wants to find a woman, he has to compete against these more skilled men (due to spending more time/effort into perfecting their "science of attraction"), and also compete against more desperate men, both categories of which are quite likely dating multiple women.
It's a losing deal for many men.
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Basically, it sounds like you have to fend off unwanted sexual contact.... Men generally don't get any sexual contact unless they actively seek out women, talk to them, ask them on dates, and hope one of them will actually take them up on the offer.
It's interesting that you think the second is less of a problem
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In my experience as a woman, dating has always been extremely easy - much easier than for any of the guys I know.
For online dating, it was as simple as throwing up a profile and picking through responses for compatible people. I set a minimum word count for first messages, so people weren't able to message me with "Hi", and also didn't accept messages from people outside of my age range, no picture, too far away, etc. The sites these days really do most of the screening work for you if you use the tools they give you. A quick phone conversation prior to meeting weeds out people who can't handle their end of a conversation.
I've also done ballroom dance for many years, which leads to meeting TONS of people, and previous to my current relationship, also led to dates. Again, no effort on my part, it just sort of happened.
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Basically, it sounds like you have to fend off unwanted sexual contact.... Men generally don't get any sexual contact unless they actively seek out women, talk to them, ask them on dates, and hope one of them will actually take them up on the offer.
It's interesting that you think the second is less of a problem
Well, isn't a bad option better than no option at all? As a woman if you want a relationship and are constantly getting offers, all you have to do is wait for one that suits you. If it doesn't seem to be happening, you can lower your standards.
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Basically, it sounds like you have to fend off unwanted sexual contact.... Men generally don't get any sexual contact unless they actively seek out women, talk to them, ask them on dates, and hope one of them will actually take them up on the offer.
It's interesting that you think the second is less of a problem
Well, isn't a bad option better than no option at all? As a woman if you want a relationship and are constantly getting offers, all you have to do is wait for one that suits you. If it doesn't seem to be happening, you can lower your standards.
I think this is just evolution. Women have more to lose with casual sexual contact. A man can disappear before or after a baby is born and guess who's stuck with the consequences?
Some good friends of mine from college are currently getting divorced and they have 4 children. Although he is a great guy (currently going through some kind of mid-life crisis), she's a SAHM with one child with special needs and now he is just "dropping by" and revelling in his new found freedom and kind of thwarting it in her face. So sad to see as that is very uncharacteristic of him.
In the olden days, a woman couldn't even support herself because she had less rights and access to education. So she needed a man that would support her financially. She had to be picky on who her partner was. Thankfully women have more freedom and can be more self-supporting in modern times.
I don't think you're going to change this evolutionary instinct women have, so you should get used to it and adapt. ;-)
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Basically, it sounds like you have to fend off unwanted sexual contact.... Men generally don't get any sexual contact unless they actively seek out women, talk to them, ask them on dates, and hope one of them will actually take them up on the offer.
It's interesting that you think the second is less of a problem
+1
And there you have the problem: if a man wants to find a woman, he has to compete against these more skilled men (due to spending more time/effort into perfecting their "science of attraction"), and also compete against more desperate men, both categories of which are quite likely dating multiple women.
It's a losing deal for many men.
For someone seeking equality I'm a bit surprised you don't recognize that there are more skilled women (who spend money on manicures, haircuts, clothes, photos, etc to look good) and more desperate women who may also be likely dating multiple men.
In the end, I would like to point out there is an exactly equal number of men married to women as women married to men.
And that you are being complanypants.
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It is FAR from my experience (or the experience of my girlfriends) that we just have to "sit back" and wait for a guy to approach us and/or choose from guys wanting to date us. I have never in my entire life had a guy walk up to me in a bar, class, workplace, subway, or any other location and ask me out. I can count on one hand the times a guy has even started a conversation with me in those situations, and half of those guys were married and just being friendly. I'd love to chalk it up to something about my looks, but I don't think I'm bad-looking, and have been mistaken for Reese Witherspoon a time or two, so I'm pretty sure that, while I'm not gorgeous, I'm ok.
When I was in my late 20s I thought, "Well, maybe it's that I don't look approachable." So I started consciously working on that. I've smiled at guys when our eyes meet in a bar--nothing. The only thing that has ever worked for me was striking up a conversation myself, and that only worked a fraction of the time (as I suspect it does for men, too).
This whole "girls have it easier than guys" argument comes across to me as really offensive to all of us who don't feel like we have it easy.
And, by the way, dealing with unwanted sexual contact is a serious issue. Granted, I've never had to deal with it in a bar/wherever, but I have had to deal with unwanted sexual contact while I was already on a date, and I've had to deal with street harassment, and both of those are scary, dehumanizing, and painful. So, yeah, I'm not sure not getting any sexual contact is a worse situation than, you know, sexual or verbal assault.
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Basically, it sounds like you have to fend off unwanted sexual contact. Men don't have that problem. Men generally don't get any sexual contact unless they actively seek out women, talk to them, ask them on dates, and hope one of them will actually take them up on the offer. You sound like you're having to work to find decent guys. Men have to actively work to find any women at all. Guess who has it harder. (men) Guess who has more options, even without trying at all. (women)
In my dating years I would have gladly taken on the cultural role of being the one to initiate a relationship if it meant that I no longer needed to fend off and fear rape.
BTW, your comments really smack of misogyny and reminds me of the wording I often hear from the women-hating "men's rights" movement. It is not a good path to go down, especially if you really want an equitable and sexual relationship with a woman. I know that were I still dating, if I heard a guy spew any of this stuff it would set my "abuser" warning bells ringing and I would head for the hills. I don't know you so I don't know if that is actually true for you or not, but be aware that that is the vibe you are giving off.
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It is FAR from my experience (or the experience of my girlfriends) that we just have to "sit back" and wait for a guy to approach us and/or choose from guys wanting to date us.
And, by the way, dealing with unwanted sexual contact is a serious issue. Granted, I've never had to deal with it in a bar/wherever, but I have had to deal with unwanted sexual contact while I was already on a date, and I've had to deal with street harassment, and both of those are scary, dehumanizing, and painful. So, yeah, I'm not sure not getting any sexual contact is a worse situation than, you know, sexual or verbal assault.
This!
Well, isn't a bad option better than no option at all? As a woman if you want a relationship and are constantly getting offers, all you have to do is wait for one that suits you. If it doesn't seem to be happening, you can lower your standards.
Nearly all my relationships developed naturally over time with men I considered friends, the rest were initiated by me. If I were relegated to just the men who have approached me I would be stuck with the men who say things like "You look like my niece." and "Come here and put your lips around my c**k" And yes, these are both things that have actually been said to me, and are quite representative.
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You sound like you're having to work to find decent guys.
Yes.
I think this is largely what you're indicating of yourself, though, too. (Read on.)
Men have to actively work to find any women at all. Guess who has it harder. (men) Guess who has more options, even without trying at all. (women)
I'm confident that you, too, could find people of very low "quality" to date, and who would even offer sexual contact. I think you simply don't want those any more than I do. We're both being particular about wanting something more than "in existence". The OP had a woman who existed, but her character was of low-quality, so he divorced her. But she was an option. You asked, "Isn't a bad option better than no option at all?" Have you never opted to break up with someone? Or just politely ignored the interest of a woman who seemed inappropriate as a partner for you? In these situations, you have "an option" and are determining that a bad option is not better than no option at all.
I would venture that unless there is something really extreme about you or your lifestyle (i.e., living solo in the wild), you have an "option" somewhat regularly. You may be a person who doesn't notice interest. Or you may simply prefer to be single or with a person/relationship of high quality rather than with women of concerning character who were or are immediately available to you. That's exactly my situation. Yes, I could "choose" among a host of men with poor character, but you could do likewise with women. Regardless of how actively we work or don't work to find a suitable partner, both genders are ultimately "waiting" for the right fit to come along. Just because I can go on dates, or "be in a relationship" doesn't mean my dream of a suitable relationship is fulfilled. Same as for you. For a person of either gender, I think there are only a few people on the whole planet who are truly an awesome fit.
Finally, I do know a host of lazy, sloppy, cheap men who get women -and with several of these men, women flock to them- so I think there's a variable beyond that of "working hard" to "get" one. The book The Human Magnet Syndrome possibly pinpoints what that variable is, describing why some very strong, smart, hardworking people (of either gender) are attracted to some very lazy, self-absorbed people (of either gender). It triggered quite the epiphany in me!
I sense that there's actually another level to your frustration. I hope you don't dismiss the issue as "men have to work hard for dates and women don't", because I think you could potentially have an awesome, life-changing experience if you are willing to go deeper than that.
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Holyoak,
What are your interests outside of work/retirement? Anything you're passionate about that you're embracing now that you have the financial freedom to do so?
When people ask me what I do, I shrug my shoulders and say "Software, but..." and then talk about things I actually care about. Occupation is usually little more than an icebreaker anyway. Start the conversation, hopefully talk about enough things that you stumble on something you have in common and can expand upon. Any really lively conversation is going to involve something that both parties are kind of passionate about, or at least one is and it's interesting to hear them talk about it.
I prefer to talk about the future. What are your goals? What do you want to do or accomplish? What do you have planned in the months ahead? These are all more interesting topics than occupation.
Eventually, if a relationship turns serious, you'll have to talk more openly about money, how you think about finances and whether you're on the same page in those areas. But it doesn't have to explored too deeply right off the bat.
- neo
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In my experience as a woman, dating has always been extremely easy
For me also - although I think it has also been easy for any man I date too. I don't bother with a lot of the stuff other's do - just go somewhere I like or do something I like and if I meet someone who seems interested I have no problems suggesting a get together - or he does. Me- "nice bike! Wanna go for a ride sometime and grab a coffee afterwards?" Him - "OK". Or vise-versa, he asks me. Or "no" if he or I aren't interested. Easy for everyone. No worry about clothes, hair, make up, jewelry or keeping up with the Miss Fancy-Pants women, just throw on some shorts and a tee shirt, hair in a pony tail and go have fun. I do a lot of different things and meet people at them, and in my experience it's very easy for both parties to meet in a casual way and also date in a casual way.
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In my experience as a woman, dating has always been extremely easy
For me also - although I think it has also been easy for any man I date too. I don't bother with a lot of the stuff other's do - just go somewhere I like or do something I like and if I meet someone who seems interested I have no problems suggesting a get together - or he does. Me- "nice bike! Wanna go for a ride sometime and grab a coffee afterwards?" Him - "OK". Or vise-versa, he asks me. Or "no" if he or I aren't interested. Easy for everyone. No worry about clothes, hair, make up, jewelry or keeping up with the Miss Fancy-Pants women, just throw on some shorts and a tee shirt, hair in a pony tail and go have fun. I do a lot of different things and meet people at them, and in my experience it's very easy for both parties to meet in a casual way and also date in a casual way.
Yes! I've made it this far in my life without ever having a manicure, and don't intend to start. I don't wear makeup or jewelry, have always had simple hairstyles, and sure as hell have never bought new clothes or shoes for a date. My only dating expense is my half of dinner or whatever, my only time expense the time it takes to put on shoes on my way out the door.
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OP - have you posted this on the "Single & Mustashian" forum?
I formerly went to a lot of meetups (meetup.com), but attend less and less frequently - not finding what I'm after either.
I have a 'standard' profile on OKCupid, that leads off with humor, and goes from there. First line:
"Great guy with sense of humor, killer body and money to burn seeks woman who doesn't believe everything she reads"
I'm also starting a 'mustashian' profile - probably call it "FIRE Weirdness", it will contain some of the brilliant thoughts found on the 'Single & Mustashian' forum put into my own words:
"Mustashian on my 2nd run at Financial Independence - goal: 3.5 years
I know I won't change who I am for another person, but part of love is the willingness to explore, and find the common ground we can romp through together, maybe even kicking some leaves around from time to time. We may value different things, but as long as we can collaborate on things we can agree on for 'mutual mischief', we'll probably be okay.
Thriftshop is more than a Macklemore song - it's a wardrobe, and decorating source. And Craigslist is my 'storage unit'. Travel means wanting to collect the National Parks, whether that's from a tent (air mattress - no cold hard ground for this guy) or old VW bus. Shoestring budget when possible, but will pay for value. Rice & beans are my 'go to' - the disastrous environmental impact of factory meat farming, and the disastrous health effects of animal fat on my heart arteries has made me a 'mostly vegan' for the past few years... never felt healthier.
Deal breakers: addiction (smoking, alcohol, gambling, drugs), jesus freaks, and angry people.
There is no algorithm for love. If there is, it's something we write for ourselves - not the robots at OKC or PlentyOfFish, or Match, Tinder, etc.
Well adjusted weirdo looking for same - for someone whose weirdness is compatible / complementary with my weirdness, and we can combine those weirdnesses into a whole new level of weirdness, and call it love.
I've changed over time. We all change over time. Sometimes a lot. You will change too. It's more important to find someone I can change, take dance lessons, and GROW with than someone who is an exact match to the person I am today. It took me a couple years (ok, more than a couple) to get to where I am today, and I'm not finished yet.
Wanna come along for the ride, and see & do new stuff on the way?"
This is a great profile!
As a 30-something lady living in the South, I find it very difficult to find fellas I am interested in dating. Everyone here is married by 25. Plus I am vegan, I ride bikes, have tattoos, I am a lawyer, and I am a total homebody (unless I am out on my bike). I have my act together, more or less. It seems a lot of my male friends are still working on an extended adolescence, even into their 30s. I love 'em as friends, but not so much as a partner. I am too private to do a real online profile with a picture...Not sure what the chances are I will find someone around these parts.
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In my experience as a woman, dating has always been extremely easy
For me also - although I think it has also been easy for any man I date too. I don't bother with a lot of the stuff other's do - just go somewhere I like or do something I like and if I meet someone who seems interested I have no problems suggesting a get together - or he does. Me- "nice bike! Wanna go for a ride sometime and grab a coffee afterwards?" Him - "OK". Or vise-versa, he asks me. Or "no" if he or I aren't interested. Easy for everyone. No worry about clothes, hair, make up, jewelry or keeping up with the Miss Fancy-Pants women, just throw on some shorts and a tee shirt, hair in a pony tail and go have fun. I do a lot of different things and meet people at them, and in my experience it's very easy for both parties to meet in a casual way and also date in a casual way.
Yes! I've made it this far in my life without ever having a manicure, and don't intend to start. I don't wear makeup or jewelry, have always had simple hairstyles, and sure as hell have never bought new clothes or shoes for a date. My only dating expense is my half of dinner or whatever, my only time expense the time it takes to put on shoes on my way out the door.
I do the make up and fancy clothes thing if I go out somewhere fancy, but otherwise pretty much go au natural. Since those simple biking, hiking, volleyball (if he can play that is) outdoorsy type dates are what I've always loved to do rather then the fancy-pants things, it makes life much easier all around - both meeting guys by doing that stuff anyways, and dating guys who rather do that stuff anyways :-)! I also have the lovely added bonus of being nearly deaf (even with hearing aids) from an accident I got while in the coast guard, so heavy convos and deep talk aren't my thing and it's better to be "doing" active somewhat silent things. Seems a lot of guys are OK with that :-)!.
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"I live pretty modestly and am able to get by on a small (pension, investment income, trust fund, part time work, whatever) so retired while I was young to________" fill in the blank.
I like Spartana's response because it both answers the question and also gives further information to talk about that's interesting (the stuff that you're doing now that you're retired - the volunteering, writing, travelling, investing, whatever).
You could also rephrase this as "I used to ____________ but these days I'm spending my time _________ and __________ and I'm enjoying having the time to ________________. I'm able to get by on my savings and really like having the freedom to control my time and do what's important to me."
Right off the bat you're interesting and worth talking to. And a response like this shows that you are supporting yourself.
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"I live pretty modestly and am able to get by on a small (pension, investment income, trust fund, part time work, whatever) so retired while I was young to________" fill in the blank.
I like Spartana's response because it both answers the question and also gives further information to talk about that's interesting (the stuff that you're doing now that you're retired - the volunteering, writing, travelling, investing, whatever).
You could also rephrase this as "I used to ____________ but these days I'm spending my time _________ and __________ and I'm enjoying having the time to ________________. I'm able to get by on my savings and really like having the freedom to control my time and do what's important to me."
Right off the bat you're interesting and worth talking to. And a response like this shows that you are supporting yourself.
I like that too.
Even while employed now, I don't like to identify myself by my job, because I don't think my job is the most important or exciting thing in my life. Somehow I ended up working in software, even though it wasn't my major exactly (but very similar). And I am trying my darndest to get out of it. I've felt a bit out of place in the software community because I am not keeping up with the latest technologies and never read about it on my spare time. It's the last thing I'd ever want to read about.
OK, so much for my mid-life crisis. Back to the topic - the more I think about it I am already hitting this "what do you do" crisis because I never like to talk about what I work at in the office. I had an ex-boyfriend remark that I never talked about work. It's true, because there was nothing interesting to me about it! I would talk about people at work though.
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I think this is just evolution. Women have more to lose with casual sexual contact. A man can disappear before or after a baby is born and guess who's stuck with the consequences?
Some good friends of mine from college are currently getting divorced and they have 4 children. Although he is a great guy (currently going through some kind of mid-life crisis), she's a SAHM with one child with special needs and now he is just "dropping by" and revelling in his new found freedom and kind of thwarting it in her face. So sad to see as that is very uncharacteristic of him.
In the olden days, a woman couldn't even support herself because she had less rights and access to education. So she needed a man that would support her financially. She had to be picky on who her partner was. Thankfully women have more freedom and can be more self-supporting in modern times.
I don't think you're going to change this evolutionary instinct women have, so you should get used to it and adapt. ;-)
99.9%+ effective birth control exists, so modern women have no more to fear than men. It sounds to me like you recognize you're in a privileged position as a woman, and just don't want to lose that. :-)
In the end, I would like to point out there is an exactly equal number of men married to women as women married to men.
Humans are descended from 2x as many women as men (http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/the-missing-men-in-your-family-tree/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0). 1/200 people today are descended from Genghis Khan. (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/08/1-in-200-men-direct-descendants-of-genghis-khan/#.U_-e7KOxlW8) Let's face the facts: many men are taking more than their fair share of the women.
I'm confident that you, too, could find people of very low "quality" to date, and who would even offer sexual contact. I think you simply don't want those any more than I do. We're both being particular about wanting something more than "in existence". The OP had a woman who existed, but her character was of low-quality, so he divorced her. But she was an option. You asked, "Isn't a bad option better than no option at all?" Have you never opted to break up with someone? Or just politely ignored the interest of a woman who seemed inappropriate as a partner for you? In these situations, you have "an option" and are determining that a bad option is not better than no option at all.
I would venture that unless there is something really extreme about you or your lifestyle (i.e., living solo in the wild), you have an "option" somewhat regularly. You may be a person who doesn't notice interest. Or you may simply prefer to be single or with a person/relationship of high quality rather than with women of concerning character who were or are immediately available to you. That's exactly my situation. Yes, I could "choose" among a host of men with poor character, but you could do likewise with women. Regardless of how actively we work or don't work to find a suitable partner, both genders are ultimately "waiting" for the right fit to come along. Just because I can go on dates, or "be in a relationship" doesn't mean my dream of a suitable relationship is fulfilled. Same as for you. For a person of either gender, I think there are only a few people on the whole planet who are truly an awesome fit.
Finally, I do know a host of lazy, sloppy, cheap men who get women -and with several of these men, women flock to them- so I think there's a variable beyond that of "working hard" to "get" one. The book The Human Magnet Syndrome possibly pinpoints what that variable is, describing why some very strong, smart, hardworking people (of either gender) are attracted to some very lazy, self-absorbed people (of either gender). It triggered quite the epiphany in me!
I sense that there's actually another level to your frustration. I hope you don't dismiss the issue as "men have to work hard for dates and women don't", because I think you could potentially have an awesome, life-changing experience if you are willing to go deeper than that.
As I don't really have anything to lose at this point, I'll be very open with you. Nope, never been asked out on a date. Never noticed a woman interested in me. Most of my life I've been very focused on optimizing myself. I studied hard, got into a good college, was an officer in my academic club, got a good job right out of college, and have been focused on my career. Never really had much time to date, let alone be in a relationship. For a woman, little experience is actually seen as an advantage. For men, that's a huge disadvantage - women figure if you don't have relationship experience, there must be a reason why.
As of late, I've thought I might like to try out a relationship. But I've quickly noticed that if I want to date at all, I need experience, and to get experience you need experience, at least as a guy. I could read all of these "attracting women" books and go to those seminars, but I'm just not that desperate. I'm just finding it quite interesting how the dating scene really is - very superficial.
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This is a tough one.
Saying outright that you are retired because you have hundreds of thousands of dollars in liquid assets to live off of... is asking for trouble. Trying to be vague will be seen as a dodge and that will make the woman suspicious.
I like the cocky-funny routine idea. Pick up is a great, liberating tool, so long as it isn't meant to substitute for a lack of personality and interests.
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In my experience as a woman, dating has always been extremely easy
For me also - although I think it has also been easy for any man I date too. I don't bother with a lot of the stuff other's do - just go somewhere I like or do something I like and if I meet someone who seems interested I have no problems suggesting a get together - or he does. Me- "nice bike! Wanna go for a ride sometime and grab a coffee afterwards?" Him - "OK". Or vise-versa, he asks me. Or "no" if he or I aren't interested. Easy for everyone. No worry about clothes, hair, make up, jewelry or keeping up with the Miss Fancy-Pants women, just throw on some shorts and a tee shirt, hair in a pony tail and go have fun. I do a lot of different things and meet people at them, and in my experience it's very easy for both parties to meet in a casual way and also date in a casual way.
Yes! I've made it this far in my life without ever having a manicure, and don't intend to start. I don't wear makeup or jewelry, have always had simple hairstyles, and sure as hell have never bought new clothes or shoes for a date. My only dating expense is my half of dinner or whatever, my only time expense the time it takes to put on shoes on my way out the door.
OMG - I can't stand manicures! I have pretty healthy long nails, so why would I want to cover it up with paint that doesn't even match anything that looks natural on a human body?
My mom always bugged me about it when I was young. I was at her house recently and she had a woman come over to do her nails (my mom is in a wheelchair). I was about to go to a wedding that night and my mom offered to pay for the manicure and the woman was sitting right there, so I said "why not?".
I went to the wedding with the painted nails and then for the next few days, any time my hand got anywhere close to my face I would smell the obnoxious smell of the paint. I got so fed up with it that I acetoned it away and the manicure didn't even last the week. So gross!
I do wear jewelry and makeup when going out and about, but in a minimalist fashion. Never while doing sports.
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I think this is just evolution. Women have more to lose with casual sexual contact. A man can disappear before or after a baby is born and guess who's stuck with the consequences?
Some good friends of mine from college are currently getting divorced and they have 4 children. Although he is a great guy (currently going through some kind of mid-life crisis), she's a SAHM with one child with special needs and now he is just "dropping by" and revelling in his new found freedom and kind of thwarting it in her face. So sad to see as that is very uncharacteristic of him.
In the olden days, a woman couldn't even support herself because she had less rights and access to education. So she needed a man that would support her financially. She had to be picky on who her partner was. Thankfully women have more freedom and can be more self-supporting in modern times.
I don't think you're going to change this evolutionary instinct women have, so you should get used to it and adapt. ;-)
99.9%+ effective birth control exists, so modern women have no more to fear than men. It sounds to me like you recognize you're in a privileged position as a woman, and just don't want to lose that. :-)
Oh yeah, women bear most of the burden of birth control as well. Thanks for the reminder.
Also, what I am referring to is a woman's natural, inborn, evolutionary and survival instinct to protect herself. Women tend to crave this stability more than men. I know I am generalizing here, but you'll probably find it's the case with a lot of women. Casual sexual contact for a woman is more risky than for a man because a woman is stuck with the consequences - even if modern birth control methods minimize it.
With that attitude, you are definitely going to attract a certain kind of woman. If that's what you're looking for - great! But if you want something more lasting, then your tactics will not work well.
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Oh yeah, women bear most of the burden of birth control as well. Thanks for the reminder.
Also, what I am referring to is a woman's natural, inborn, evolutionary and survival instinct to protect herself. Women tend to crave this stability more than men. I know I am generalizing here, but you'll probably find it's the case with a lot of women. Casual sexual contact for a woman is more risky than for a man because a woman is stuck with the consequences - even if modern birth control methods minimize it.
With that attitude, you are definitely going to attract a certain kind of woman. If that's what you're looking for - great! But if you want something more lasting, then your tactics will not work well.
Actually, I'm not interested in that kind of contact at all. You can pay a woman, if that's what you really want. I'm just trying to understand why, in a modern-day society where men and women are pretty much equal (actually, young women now outearn young men in most cities (http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html)), men still have to do a disproportionate amount of work for a relationship.
It doesn't help that most people on this forum seem to be married, and enjoy the economies of scale that singletons don't, thus reaching FIRE faster. Many seem pretty happy about their relationships. This makes me wonder what I'm missing out on (and hence why I'm posting more seriously about this topic than I ever have in the past).
This is probably your issue. Women are not a resource. If you treat women like a dehumanized commodity, women of worth will not give you the time of day.
Let me be clear: you wouldn't recognize me in real life based on my posts in this forum. I'm putting down my real thoughts here that never come out in real life, as I'm trying to understand what the problem is. In person, I come across as a friendly guy who highly values politeness and respect, and most definitely would never want to offend someone. If anything, I put woman on a pedestal. Right now I'm simply recognizing that isn't getting me anywhere. Cue the "nice guy never gets the girl" typical stuff.
Women aren't interested in "experience" or "desperate" men. Women want to feel good about themselves and have a companion/friend.
For the record, I was my husband's first serious girlfriend. We've been together for almost 4 years, married for one. I'm the only woman to meet his parents (at age 30). I will admit that I had no issues with dating. I was asked out a lot. I went out with a lot of shallow guys. I found someone that is my number one fan. My DH makes me feel special, smart, and worthy every day. I don't care about his past. I only care about our relationship.
I appreciate what you're saying, but I have to wonder if this is another case of "women don't know what they really want." The other possibility is that most women my age just aren't interested in serious relationships, and are just after casual flings. Maybe I'll have better luck around age 30.
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This is a great profile!
As a 30-something lady living in the South, I find it very difficult to find fellas I am interested in dating. Everyone here is married by 25. Plus I am vegan, I ride bikes, have tattoos, I am a lawyer, and I am a total homebody (unless I am out on my bike). I have my act together, more or less. It seems a lot of my male friends are still working on an extended adolescence, even into their 30s. I love 'em as friends, but not so much as a partner. I am too private to do a real online profile with a picture...Not sure what the chances are I will find someone around these parts.
While I grew up in the DEEP South, and may end up there in some capacity in the next few years, I'm in the Seattle area for the next 5 years (min). Although I *AM* looking for a possible winter-snowbird / summer-rental property on the Alabama Gulf Coast. But while friends (especially those in my ska band 'Sound Wave') are often shocked to learn I'm not in my late 30's, I'm actually an early mid-century model born during Camelot.
Have you considered moving to other areas? In Alaska, the women have a saying: "The odds are good, but the goods are odd", because there are SO MANY more single men than women. In Seattle, there are 1.4 single men for every single woman. Again, here the 'odds' are good thanks to technology employers like Amazon, Microsoft, Boeing, Google, T-Mobile, AT&T Wireless, etc.
Many of my female high school & college friends have found success moving to Atlanta. And I'm sure it's the same tech-boom story there.
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Let me be clear: you wouldn't recognize me in real life based on my posts in this forum. I'm putting down my real thoughts here that never come out in real life, as I'm trying to understand what the problem is. In person, I come across as a friendly guy who highly values politeness and respect, and most definitely would never want to offend someone. If anything, I put woman on a pedestal. Right now I'm simply recognizing that isn't getting me anywhere. Cue the "nice guy never gets the girl" typical stuff.
That might be part of the issue. You might think you act like you don't objectify and resent women but the "real thoughts" you are giving us here clearly show that mentally you do. Acting like a "nice guy" does not make you an actual decent person and "putting women on a pedestal" does not mean you are a man who really respects women. Most mature women see right through the whole "nice guy" charade and have learned to identify it very quickly and avoid it. If you would really like to date, I earnestly suggest you go get some counseling from someone who can help you work through these issues. I'm not saying this to denigrate you but to help you and the many women out there who are struggling to find decent men who will understand them and treat them with respect.
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Let me be clear: you wouldn't recognize me in real life based on my posts in this forum. I'm putting down my real thoughts here that never come out in real life, as I'm trying to understand what the problem is. In person, I come across as a friendly guy who highly values politeness and respect, and most definitely would never want to offend someone. If anything, I put woman on a pedestal. Right now I'm simply recognizing that isn't getting me anywhere. Cue the "nice guy never gets the girl" typical stuff.
That might be part of the issue. You might think you act like you don't objectify and resent women but the "real thoughts" you are giving us here clearly show that mentally you do. Acting like a "nice guy" does not make you an actual decent person and "putting women on a pedestal" does not mean you are a man who really respects women. Most mature women see right through the whole "nice guy" charade and have learned to identify it very quickly and avoid it. If you would really like to date, I earnestly suggest you go get some counseling from someone who can help you work through these issues. I'm not saying this to denigrate you but to help you and the many women out there who are struggling to find decent men who will understand them and treat them with respect.
I'm actually not against counseling (I've thought of doing it in the past), but I'm not convinced that will fix my problems (If I have any). How would I know the person knows what they're talking about? How would I even find such a person? And basically, I'm going to have to pay to have someone help guide me towards finding a relationship, thus delaying FIRE (which is my #1 goal right now). I'm not desperate to date - I've already stated that. If there's advice out there that fixes my issues, isn't it available free on the internet?
Most of my comments have been phrased as very abstract, so they might sound more condescending. That was not my intention - I was trying to be free of the emotional effects of describing specific people. But I can also understand that my perception might be warped due to never having actually dated before.
Beric01, I applaud you for being open to the suggestions on this thread. The language you've used to describe women on this thread has been upsetting to me. I apologize if I come across as rude. I'm trying to be direct.
Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm posting like this being very direct myself (FAR more direct than I have ever been in my 24 years), so I do appreciate the direct answers in return.
This is condescending. What if I said that you didn't know what you really want? It's ridiculous to think that an adult doesn't know what they want. Maybe they're making poor choices (forum threads filled with bad decisions) or not thinking long term, but adults are completely capable of knowing what they want.
Actually, I would be open to hearing that I don't know what I really want. Many men just try to bed as many women as possible. Do I think that really makes them happier, even if they succeed? No. Most of society thinks they just need more money, and they will be happier. I'm heading straight towards FIRE at 33, but I don't know for sure 100% that's what I really want. The human brain is very complicated. So sure, you can tell me that I don't know what I really want. I wouldn't be surprised at all.
This is a generalization, and I would argue that women have to do more for relationships. Do you have any data to back up your claim? No. Neither do I. It's an opinion, or at best anecdotal.
My point was specifically for initiating relationships. Here's some data (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-how-and-why-sex-differences/201104/why-dont-women-ask-men-out-first-dates) - the overwhelming majority of women would prefer to be asked out, and mainly go on dates only after being asked out. Note that the man thus has to do all of the asking, take the risk of rejection, etc.
I recommend reading this post http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/
Number 3 is a kick in the pants, but it was something that I needed.
I appreciate that, though it's already the direction I'm heading (particularly on the last part). I'm always trying to become a better person - that's why I'm doing some things like FIRE which are making radical changes to my life. I'm starting to cook more, reading more (rather than playing video games) and doing some volunteering. I like to be open to ideas to improve myself. I just find it kind of funny that I'm on the path to FIRE by 33 (potentially sooner), and will never have been on a date by that age at my current rate.
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Never noticed a woman interested in me. [...] Never really had much time to date, let alone be in a relationship. For a woman, little experience is actually seen as an advantage. For men, that's a huge disadvantage - women figure if you don't have relationship experience, there must be a reason why. [...] As of late, I've thought I might like to try out a relationship. But I've quickly noticed that if I want to date at all, I need experience, and to get experience you need experience, at least as a guy. I could read all of these "attracting women" books and go to those seminars, but I'm just not that desperate. I'm just finding it quite interesting how the dating scene really is - very superficial.
I still totally believe there's hope for your dream to come true! After I posted, I suddenly remembered that in the last townhouse complex I lived in, three people indicated interest in me...and I did not realize it until they said, "I was hugely attracted to you..." or, "Um, I'm in love with you. You haven't noticed that?" It was very weird to me. I came to understand then that nope, I have no idea when some people are interested in me. Is it possible that some people have been in to you but you didn't realize it? Especially since, as you note, you've been kind of "tunnel vision" for some years?
I know I was very attracted to two guys earlier in my life, both of whom one day asked me variations on, "Why were you not attracted to me?", at which point I shared that I totally had been, but didn't think one was an option (thought he was out of my league, not noticing me, etc) and felt the other wouldn't be a good partner for me.
All this attraction, and none of us knowing until some magical moment -usually long (sometimes years!) after the fact- when one of us got bold enough to speak up.
I wonder if there's an element here of some people (either gender) noticing cues of attraction, and some of us not. I catch little short of very obvious overtures. And one guy I was with, I was in love with him for a year and he had no idea. One day I told him, he was delighted, came on to me, and we had a whole big relationship.
More to all of it than meets the eye, I think!
Also, OK Cupid asks if a person prefers someone with no relationship experience to lots, or something in between. A good number of women are putting "none", "little", etc. I'm okay with either, since "lots" is a common scenario in one's 40s, but I and others see no real advantage to "experience" (read: trepidation based in past heartbreak, baggage, all exciting "firsts" gone, etc). I love the movie The 40 Year Old Virgin, and think it says a lot about today.
Yes, much of the dating scene is hard, horrible, and superficial. But I joined it for a few months to "practice" (as I'd never dated before). I like that I did that, though I'm very glad now to not be practicing!
I tend to think you're right to skip the "attraction science" material. Even the kindest and most respectful of it is pretty common sense, and I don't see its extras working for anyone I know (including myself!) that's delved into it. Me, I'm convinced at this point that (a) a relationship may not be in the cards until my child is at least a teen, and (b) that I'm only going to find my person while being my random, daydreamy self tripping over a fallen carrot in the produce aisle in a grocery store, despite what articles claim about my awesome, womanly online dating prospectives.
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"I live pretty modestly and am able to get by on a small (pension, investment income, trust fund, part time work, whatever) so retired while I was young to________" fill in the blank.
I like Spartana's response because it both answers the question and also gives further information to talk about that's interesting (the stuff that you're doing now that you're retired - the volunteering, writing, travelling, investing, whatever).
You could also rephrase this as "I used to ____________ but these days I'm spending my time _________ and __________ and I'm enjoying having the time to ________________. I'm able to get by on my savings and really like having the freedom to control my time and do what's important to me."
Right off the bat you're interesting and worth talking to. And a response like this shows that you are supporting yourself.
Yeah it's direct and honest and also basically gets to the point that I'm not working, and don't plan to ever work again, and the reason why. That I don't have a huge amount of money (or don't spend a huge amount of money)and the reason why. That I'm self supporting and not looking for someone to support me. And that I'm probably a cheap date!. However some guys seem to think I may be a gold digger just wanting to sink my claws into their 401K accounts. But that's OK, it's kind of fun watching grown men run for their lives with a panic stricken look on their face while clutching their wallets as hard as they can :-)! And I'd rather spend my time with someone who understands what it is that I do exactly, and the reasons I do it, and not have someone who just doesn't "get it" or wants/expects me to be different then I am or for me to change. I've dated a lot since I both divorced (great guy, great marriage, amiable divorce, still friends) and FIRE'd (both when I was 42) and so have been thru all the "what do you do" questions a million times now. Being direct and honest seems to be the best solution for me.
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In person, I come across as a friendly guy who highly values politeness and respect, and most definitely would never want to offend someone. If anything, I put woman on a pedestal. Right now I'm simply recognizing that isn't getting me anywhere. Cue the "nice guy never gets the girl" typical stuff.
I earnestly recommend to you the book No More Mr Nice Guy (Glover). It's awesome, and based on what you said about pedestal, nice, respectful, not wanting to offend, etc, I think it will really resonate with you. (And he recommends resources -including free ones- for shifting this quality.) Even though I'm a chick, I read it because I got frustrated dating guys who appeared in the first weeks or months to be "nice" and then leaked not-nice stuff (all while still totally believing they are "nice"). I'm actively training myself to run fast from the specific appearance of "nice" that the book describes, the one that indicates problems to come, the one that other women intuitively avoid in their pursuit of good. The men described in the book, including the author himself in the past, share a sincere confusion about what the problem is...until they try something new and things change!
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In person, I come across as a friendly guy who highly values politeness and respect, and most definitely would never want to offend someone. If anything, I put woman on a pedestal. Right now I'm simply recognizing that isn't getting me anywhere. Cue the "nice guy never gets the girl" typical stuff.
I earnestly recommend to you the book No More Mr Nice Guy (Glover). It's awesome, and based on what you said about pedestal, nice, respectful, not wanting to offend, etc, I think it will really resonate with you. (And he recommends resources -including free ones- for shifting this quality.) Even though I'm a chick, I read it because I got frustrated dating guys who appeared in the first weeks or months to be "nice" and then leaked not-nice stuff (all while still totally believing they are "nice"). I'm actively training myself to run fast from the specific appearance of "nice" that the book describes, the one that indicates problems to come, the one that other women intuitively avoid in their pursuit of good. The men described in the book, including the author himself in the past, share a sincere confusion about what the problem is...until they try something new and things change!
I appreciate the recommendation - thanks! I'll take a look.
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I know exactly where I'd find men to date if I were single: at the Botanical gardens here in the city. There are tons of volunteer opportunities, plant societies, cooking and plant classes, etc--that would be the first place I would go, if that were my goal. There are lots of people there who would share at least some of my values, although it's true that they re not always Mustachean.
In my late 20's I had a boyfriend who didn't have a car, rode his bike everywhere, slept on the floor in a very modest apartment in the bario. I though he was great and his chosen lifestyle of simplicity interesting. Neither of us had tv. He was very outdoorsy and hiked and mountaineered a lot, and kayaked when he was able. (But that was not my schtick.) For dates we waked around a lot, went to movies, went to festivals in town, went to the library.
I remember almost his exact words of 30 years ago: " If I live very simply, I can retire early and do what I want to do. " That seemed completely rational to me since I had always been Mustachean life, I didn't care about consumerist spending much beyond some cute clothes. I moved on to another part of the country and we parted, but I always thought fondly of our simple dating lifestyle.
He did in fact retire early, but not all that early according to the standards here, he was probably 58. But I do remember when he got a bed, then a small truck, then bought a mobile home, and then--an actual house. With each of those purchases, thud, he fell a step off my pedestal of extreme Mustacheansim.
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In person, I come across as a friendly guy who highly values politeness and respect, and most definitely would never want to offend someone. If anything, I put woman on a pedestal. Right now I'm simply recognizing that isn't getting me anywhere. Cue the "nice guy never gets the girl" typical stuff.
I earnestly recommend to you the book No More Mr Nice Guy (Glover). It's awesome, and based on what you said about pedestal, nice, respectful, not wanting to offend, etc, I think it will really resonate with you. (And he recommends resources -including free ones- for shifting this quality.) Even though I'm a chick, I read it because I got frustrated dating guys who appeared in the first weeks or months to be "nice" and then leaked not-nice stuff (all while still totally believing they are "nice"). I'm actively training myself to run fast from the specific appearance of "nice" that the book describes, the one that indicates problems to come, the one that other women intuitively avoid in their pursuit of good. The men described in the book, including the author himself in the past, share a sincere confusion about what the problem is...until they try something new and things change!
I appreciate the recommendation - thanks! I'll take a look.
Hi Beric,
OK your latest posts make more sense. I am also single and more of a quality than quantity dater. And I hate casual dating. If I'm not interested in someone, I'd rather just be single and loving life. I have tried the online dating thing, and it just isn't for me. It seems forced and actually time consuming. And then I came to the realization that I only want to be with someone that has similar interests at this point in my life, so if it happens it will be naturally. If it doesn't happen, no big deal.
And yes, I am jealous of the double-income couples that can make it work. I've had to reach FIRE all on my own as well.
As far as being the "nice guy" - don't abandon it. My ex-boyfriend was a "nice guy". Actually a very old friend of a friend that was four years younger than me. I kind of sensed he had a crush on me way back in my early 20s when I met him, but he never really acted on it...which was probably good because I wasn't into him then. In hindsight, I always liked talking with him and hanging out, but I think the age difference at that time in my life was too big for me, and I had a crush on someone else at the time so he wasn't on my radar. Then, in my early 30s we ran into each other again and I started to get feelings for him, to the point of a crush. We hung out a lot, and I dropped hints like you wouldn't believe, but it took him a year to finally ask me out. And that was with me initiating a lot of the hangouts up until then. I almost gave up. Then he finally asked me out and it was great. Well, not so great. I think he was too nice and still a little shy and I had to do a lot of further initiating, which isn't in my nature. So you have a nice guy and a nice girl - I think he wanted a more aggressive woman because he wasn't aggressive. When we broke up, I predicted (in my jealousy) that he would end up with a domineering woman. Well he got engaged just 8 months later in a whirlwind romance. Our common friend tells me the wife doesn't like any of his friends. I haven't asked much, because I am still hurt about it, but I assume she's domineering (in my jealous mind ;-) ). Oh well, I hope he's happy.
Why do the nice guys pick domineering women? I think it's because they don't need to be aggressive or the pursuer around those women because they do all of the work for them. Could be a bit emasculating. Once a girl has admitted she has feelings for you, then I think you can up the aggressive part a little, especially if she's a nice girl. But you have to make sure you are both on the same page. Don't change your niceness. Use it as your starting point and take it from there.
Another attractive quality is having confidence. You can be a nice guy and still project confidence. Some nice guys have issues with that. Do some personal reflection and realize you are a great catch and there will be women attracted to you. But balance that confidence with humility. It's got to be a silent confidence you carry around and project without having to say a word about it. I have a good friend at work that is like this. Just looking at him without knowing him you may not think he is that attractive, but his warm, funny, and humbly confident nature is very attractive. He's married - darn it.
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This is a great profile!
As a 30-something lady living in the South, I find it very difficult to find fellas I am interested in dating. Everyone here is married by 25. Plus I am vegan, I ride bikes, have tattoos, I am a lawyer, and I am a total homebody (unless I am out on my bike). I have my act together, more or less. It seems a lot of my male friends are still working on an extended adolescence, even into their 30s. I love 'em as friends, but not so much as a partner. I am too private to do a real online profile with a picture...Not sure what the chances are I will find someone around these parts.
While I grew up in the DEEP South, and may end up there in some capacity in the next few years, I'm in the Seattle area for the next 5 years (min). Although I *AM* looking for a possible winter-snowbird / summer-rental property on the Alabama Gulf Coast. But while friends (especially those in my ska band 'Sound Wave') are often shocked to learn I'm not in my late 30's, I'm actually an early mid-century model born during Camelot.
Have you considered moving to other areas? In Alaska, the women have a saying: "The odds are good, but the goods are odd", because there are SO MANY more single men than women. In Seattle, there are 1.4 single men for every single woman. Again, here the 'odds' are good thanks to technology employers like Amazon, Microsoft, Boeing, Google, T-Mobile, AT&T Wireless, etc.
Many of my female high school & college friends have found success moving to Atlanta. And I'm sure it's the same tech-boom story there.
I should probably move if finding a partner is my #1 goal. But right now my goal is to get my student loans paid off and then get out of dodge. There are a lot of great things about living in the south. I get to grow things in my yard year round, for instance. But I would like to move one day. If the right opportunity came along, I would take it. But for now I am just chugging along. :)
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Holy cow. This thread changed a lot from the original poster's questions. I'm not complaining here, just stating a fact.
The key is to be outcome agnostic and never get ahead of yourself. I have a bad habit of falling hard and fast for women I like. And as soon as that happens you're screwed. In every case in my life where that's happened, a break up/rejection/etc came very soon after.
A first date is kind of an interview -- both people are trying to figure out whether they want to see this person again. For me, glib evasive answers are telling me "no". Likewise telling me I have no sense of humour if I don't find you funny. So, it's probably good that there are people doing those things and speeding up Getting To No. :-)
I liked how the above two quotes highlight an important part about relationship development. Someone initiates the interaction, the interaction is completely genuine, and the result is something amazing: the two of you learn that a romantic relationship is not going to happen. I like to think of it as an efficient interaction, and efficiency is a large part of what being frugal is about. Likewise, if the two parties involved think a long-term relationship will happen, then you continue to date ad infinitum until you realize you don't like each other. Simple stuff.
I read the cracked.com article someone else posted earlier, so perhaps what I'm about to mention is heavily influenced by that. Relationships, whether you realize it or not, are about what you are able to get from someone else. The only reason they exist is because both parties find them mutually beneficial. The woman tries to find an able-bodied, intelligent caretaker, and the man tries to find a self-replicating machine (http://xkcd.com/387/ (http://xkcd.com/387/)) with functioning mammary glands. Those are evolutionary basics (and of course there's quite a bit more of them), but the true long-term relationships happen when the couple reaches beyond the initial attraction and look at the logical aspects of the mate in question. I think that's why dating today deservedly gets a bad reputation (at least based among the posters here) - it's created by the same short-sighted culture and modern lifestyle that frugality flies in the face of. In my experiences online dating 95% of women's profile's are not looking for long-term dating. Perhaps they're afraid of looking too serious; I'm not really sure.
As far as Beric01 mentioning that guys have to do all the work, we for sure are naturally tasked with initiating verbal contact. Women actually initiate contact with our retinas by being so visually stunning, and we get worked up and try to initiate verbal contact as a result. There are plenty of other things that can be stunning about women as well, but in general I believe this is the driving force behind why men ask more women out than vice versa. I do enjoy this aspect of dating, because this means I can completely check out of the dating scene at any time. It's unfortunate that women cannot do the same. Finally, I think as a young 20-something looking for the right fit, it is very little in the grand scheme of things to spend some money on fun dates to potentially meet someone special.
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i think there is a good chance you will find a good match in the south, hooded falcon. When you are one of a few it makes it easier to band together with like minded people. If you move to a bigger city you will have different problems (more people with less interest in long term relationships, less maturity etc).
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As far as being the "nice guy" - don't abandon it.
To clarify about the No More Mr Nice Guy book, it doesn't advocate becoming a jerk. It supports a person being respectful, generous, kind, etc, just not passive, passive-aggressive, asking for nothing for oneself until anger kicks in, being a doormat, giving to the point of resentment, etc. Some people doing these things think this is "being nice" and then wonder why they're not getting what they want, why their own needs aren't being met, why people seem to develop an allergy to them, etc.
Beric01: And the book was recommended to me by my relationship counsellor, so you get my counsellor free! ;)
We hung out a lot, and I dropped hints like you wouldn't believe, but it took him a year to finally ask me out. And that was with me initiating a lot of the hangouts up until then. I almost gave up. Then he finally asked me out and it was great. Well, not so great. I think he was too nice and still a little shy and I had to do a lot of further initiating, which isn't in my nature. So you have a nice guy and a nice girl - I think he wanted a more aggressive woman because he wasn't aggressive. When we broke up, I predicted (in my jealousy) that he would end up with a domineering woman. Well he got engaged just 8 months later in a whirlwind romance. Our common friend tells me the wife doesn't like any of his friends.
Yeah, that. The last guy I was so in love with, the one who didn't notice me for my whole first year of terrible crushing, he was very magnetized toward domineering women. I think that's why I didn't register for him. He was very caught up in several women who told him what to do. But months after we finally got together, we entered a weird zone where he would on the one hand treat me like crap if I didn't do precisely what he wanted me to do, but on the other hand literally (in so many words!) beg me to "tell [him] what to do", take over control of his finances, etc. Perhaps he was morphing from an old state to a new one, because he was really of two minds: wanting to control, and wanting everything decided/dictated by his partner. His ex of 16 years had been very willing to take that role, but I was entirely unwilling to. I really wanted conversation leading to a collaborative, mutually-created plan. He hated that. I was heartbroken.
Why do the nice guys pick domineering women? I think it's because they don't need to be aggressive or the pursuer around those women because they do all of the work for them.
I think you're right about this. Well, I think it may just be familiar to them (like if they grew up with that), or it can be an effect, yes, of passivity (a lazy way of life, fearing failure if we make a "wrong" decision, etc).
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I need to say:
As long as a person is saying "women like...", "women think...", "women don't want..." I think the chances of finding an awesome woman drop dramatically. When we can release all preconceived notions about "women", I think chances of good things happening increase dramatically.
I had a male friend who, in his dating frustration, started the list of what women think/want/don't want. It stunned me, because he was otherwise a very intelligent and aware person. When I said the above, he so strongly resisted the idea that every woman is different, an individual with distinct thoughts, preferences, etc, I couldn't bear it anymore. I genuinely believe that his prejudices were directly interfering with his ability to experience what he wanted. It looked like total self-sabotage to me (and this was a common theme in his life in general). Even when we're very smart, we can think really weird things that are not true and that hurt our chances of success.
I feel the same when people stereotype guys. When someone said in this thread that men want to bed as many women as they can, I felt sad and sick for the men I know for whom this is not the case. Are some of them attracted to many women? Yes. Do they "want to bed" as many of them as possible? No, because besides attraction/desire, they also have emotions, a capacity to love, empathy, a desire for emotional intimacy, a preference for one partner, a wish to engage respectfully with all humans, etc. If we cannot hear this about the men for whom this is true, and cannot hear the facts about individual women, and we remain entirely committed to prejudices and to believing given things about a given gender, we cannot actually "meet" the person standing across from us in any given moment. And if we cannot meet (hear, come to truly know) the person across from us, we have no chance of knowing anyone, never mind developing intimate relationship with them.
So, the very first thing I would do if I hear myself saying [a given culture, race, gender] believes/wants/thinks [whatever] is prove to myself the opposite, to break the prejudice that's getting in my way of truly meeting the next person who appears in front of me.
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Beric01: And the book was recommended to me by my relationship counsellor, so you get my counsellor free! ;)
Thanks again!
I apologize if my posts in this thread went overboard and derailed the thread. Looking back now, I'm not sure I should have posted in this thread, knowing my tenancies. But I think I learned a lot! The book definitely looks applicable.
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Also if your FIRE plans superced understanding and entering into a healthy relationship then you have more issues to deal with. This is very anti Mushtacian
You're drinking too much MMM Kool aid
Hiring a life coach is a great idea in fact
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So, the very first thing I would do if I hear myself saying [a given culture, race, gender] believes/wants/thinks [whatever] is prove to myself the opposite, to break the prejudice that's getting in my way of truly meeting the next person who appears in front of me.
Well said. I'd like to elaborate and add that people can be surprising. I've assumed incorrectly in the past that, in terms of personality, certain types of people don't exist. The more people I meet, however, the more I realize that we all have very ridiculously different takes on life. Even this small group of forummers is highly diverse. This makes me not just excited to meet new people, but also optimistic about meeting a woman with a combination of personality traits I've never encountered before and am completely wowed by. I can only hope the feeling would be mutual in that instance. :)
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Humans are descended from 2x as many women as men (http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/05/the-missing-men-in-your-family-tree/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0). 1/200 people today are descended from Genghis Khan. (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/08/1-in-200-men-direct-descendants-of-genghis-khan/#.U_-e7KOxlW8) Let's face the facts: many men are taking more than their fair share of the women.
Emphasis added
Hey Beric01, this point of yours actually supports an assertion made earlier in the thread (which you disagreed with at the time) that unwanted sexual contact is far far less desirable than less frequent sexual contact than desired. Genghis Khan has so many descendents because he was a brutal conquorer. He raped and forcibly married thousands, sleeping with many women each night, including high ranking wives and daughters of the conquorered tribe. These women didn't CHOOSE to have sex with this man, and I'm positive would have far preferred less sexual contact.
I'll reiterate what 4alpacas said - it's deeply troubling to me (and quite offensive) that you see women as a resource, property if you will, that deserves to be "shared" out equally. If this attitude comes across to women in your day to day life, that may have more to do with your success with women than anything else.
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How much work (or effort, time, money, resources of any kind) someone has to put into a transaction is somewhat a result of the difference between how much they value what they are getting out of it.
If you want "just sex" and the people you want that from want it less than you, you'll need to put in more effort.
If you want a "trophy wife" and she wants a "sugar daddy" you'll have to put in more money, and she'll have to put in more... "hotness." (Through genetic lottery, perhaps, but also through effort to maintain appearances, and perhaps by giving up other options. And maybe her own feelings of self-worth.)
However, if you're looking for a mutually beneficial partnership, where you share your strengths and compensate for each others' weaknesses, where you teach each other and support each other and make sure you're both taken care of and growing and making the most out of life... ? You'll find that there's rough parity in how much work each person has to do to first take care of themselves, be responsible, pursue their goals and be mature, reasonably independent human beings. And then you'll find they both will want that partnership about the same, and expect each other to put forth reasonable efforts towards doing the hard work of making such a partnership work, benefit each other, and last a long time.
Sexist/bad examples hopefully not offending anyone but meant to illustrate a point. If they are offensive, please tell me!
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It's pretty simple: To be attractive, you have to demonstrate value to other people. To demonstrate value, you first have to not care what potential mates think of you, or about being rejected. If you get rejected, so what? There are literally millions of others out there. Caring much what potential mates thinks about you gives off signals of "I'm desperate and not confident in myself, I'm not deserving of you!" which turns a lot of people off, and certainly people that have their own perceived high value. In the OP's post, I was concerned that because he was worried what others think of his car and lack of a job, he might have and therefore be exuding the wrong attitude.
On the other hand, not caring what others thinks of you exudes confidence, and makes them think, "What does this person have, that they are so confident around me, a supermodel/multi-millionaire/famous actor? I'm intrigued."
After not caring what others think, then you have to bring something of value yourself that people want to have around. Being "nice" is not particularly valuable -- it usually comes off as needy and desperate. Everyone should be kind and generous, but "nice" is the wrong approach. In the dating/mating context, it's associated with meekness and the implication that "nice guys finish last." Like the article said, what do you bring to the table to make anyone want to be around you? Being nice is up there with "I can breathe."
Confident + Funny is a proven, winning combination. Who doesn't like people that are confident and fun to be around and make you laugh? Oh, and they're interesting too, because they don't just play video games all day. They don't have to act interesting, they are interesting. What, you make your own planes and fly them?! You rode a bike 20 miles in a clown costume to entertain kids at the Children's Hospital?! You fell off a horse, broke your ankle, and crawled 2 miles to get home?! Any one of these people is interesting, I want to know more about them and maybe be part of their crazy ride.
No one is being "fake" if they try to get better at being confident and funny, even knowing that it will make them more attractive to others. I could pick literally any quality I might want to become better at -- generosity, kindness, assertiveness, compassion, listening, knowledge -- and do things to demonstrate or improve that quality. I hardly see that as being fake or manipulative.
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@Beric01: The confident/funny approach should not be viewed as a bunch of hard work that you should (gasp!) have to lower yourself to in order to attract a "quality" mate over all those other guys who are putting in effort and, according to you, "taking more than their fair share." What do you bring to the table? Or maybe those guys know or have something you don't? You seem to think women should be approaching you based on -- I don't know what -- even though you aren't approaching them. This is not a bunch of scripted tactics guys learn, and women are not resources or spoils to be had as others have pointed out. I agree that learning a bunch of pickup-artist lines and tactics sounds fake and like too much work. It's not about that. It's about shifting one's attitude and following some simple steps to demonstrate value. I've known guys (and women) who think others should be gravitating to and approaching them because of all their (self-proclaimed) hidden qualities, but somehow it doesn't turn out that way, and many years later they're still waiting or have given up...
Think of it like this: Upon graduating college I was taught that when you go to job interviews, you confidently face the person you are meeting with, look them in the eye, shake their hand firmly but not too hard, smile, pleasantly introduce yourself, and possibly say, "Nice to meet you". And if your hand is sweaty because you're nervous, you discreetly wipe your hand on your pant leg first. A cynical person could call this a scripted set of fake actions designed to manipulate the interviewer. I call it smart fucking business sense that works, and it's simple advice to follow to positively influence people.
It's no different when you follow smart dating principles or eat at the table with manners. I guess someone could ignore the cocky/funny principles and say they're too much work and why bother, just as one could sit at home waiting for a job interviewer to call them, and if they're lucky enough to be called, fail to shake their hand or look them in the eye, then insult them and hope for the best.
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(Gosh, I love this whole thread. I am learning so much!!!)
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As far as trying to answer the question of "what you do" seriously and honestly for potential mates, I wish there was a word to combine all of the little individual things you do that help keep you in this low-expense lifestyle - like an investor, financial advisor/planner, chef, cyclist, handy man/woman, travel agent (to get good deals), house cleaner, auto mechanic (if you fix your own cars), social director, etc.
If this was a valid answer if you were doing this stuff for other people and getting paid for doing it, why can't we answer the question the same way if we are doing it for ourselves and getting paid in the sense of lowering our costs?
And I suppose some people get paid to be a life coach...well you are your own life coach.
This sort of thing (often suggested to stay-at-home moms [and I use "mom" on purpose because they usually are]) is misleading because most people who describe themselves as a "handyman" or a "financial advisor" etc. actually have training and education in those areas. Saying "I'm a chef" when you're just an amateur is kind of posing.
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This thread reminds me of the book, The Game by Neil Strauss.
Ultimately the 'tricks' in this book come down to one thing: demonstrating social value.
Those who employ 'chick crack' are douche-hats. They embody all that the cynics on this thread are wary of. But they aren't in the game for the long term. Their time horizon is hours.
Others develop their game in a way that demonstrates social value that is consistent with who they are. That's fine. It is okay for a funny guy to use humor to woo a woman. Good luck keeping up the comedy if that simply ain't you, however.
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I wish I could tell you and if you find out, let me know. I'm single, 43, not FI yet, but when a girl finds out I don't own a car, walk (12 minutes) to work every day, shop at the ugly grocery store, and live in an apartment (not a house) they're none too happy to date me. That's just as well, because I usually find out they owe $10K in credit card debt, use the latest iPhone, still have student loans, drive a leased gas guzzler BMW, and plan on someday having a $50K wedding with a horse-carriage and fireworks involved. Meh, guess I'll stay single. I ain't letting that crazy behaviour anywhere near my savings.
hahaha YES! THIS.
I'm 38 and single -- no plans to change that either.
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Thought I might throw in this paper as it relates to Mustachianism: Male Financial Consumption is Associated with Higher Mating Intentions and Mating Success (http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP06603612.pdf).
Males who have higher mating intentions may maximize their economic displays, saving little and even spending beyond their capacity through the use of credit. These men may seek and possibly obtain a greater number of sexual partners. This hypothesis was tested in a randomly selected community sample of men aged 18-45 included in a telephone health interview. The degree of financial consumption was directly related to future mating intentions and past mating success, even when accounting for age, years of education completed, and marital status.
+1
How sad, but it definitely confirms the anecdotal evidence I've seen over the years. I have no interest in going that route. I'd rather be alone than live for material consumption and debt.
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Thanks aphalite, okashira, and Eric. You guys nailed it.
I really don't get all the outrage over using humor and confidence to improve one's prospects in dating or attracting members of the opposite sex, and calling it "tactics" and "fake." You might as well express similar outrage over advice to be likable, have manners, and be confident at work in order to improve one's career prospects.
Here's another thing: Advice that can be boiled down to "be yourself" ignores the potential that "being yourself" may actually be horrible advice. Some people are socially inept. Many guys have no clue how to actually approach and talk to women, or they have misguided ideas (such as that "being nice" will be successful). Telling them to "be yourself" may be essentially sentencing them to a lifetime of failure and loneliness. It doesn't mean someone has to be fake -- they can learn how to converse, to create attraction, and to do interesting things so they actually are interesting and have something to talk about
And here is the crux of the situation. It takes hard work to get into a relationship. But notice what's going on here? It takes hard work for a single gender. Let me ask the question: why is this day of supposed gender equality in everything else, is all of the work in dating still put on men's shoulders? Why do men need to initiate and women get to decide?
I could play the game. Read every book and attend every seminar on "attracting women". Go out on town one night, talk to 100 women, and hope that increases my odds. But what do women need to do in the same situations? Just respond, just choose which of the countless men out there that approach them that they are interested in. This is just as true on dating sites as anywhere else.
To me it looks like I need to put in as much effort into dating as to getting an education. That just sounds like too much work. And frankly, I'm just not that desperate. For me, a relationship would be nice to have. For a women who thinks a relationship would be nice to have, all she needs to do is go on a date when a guy asks her, accept future dates, and boom, she's in a relationship. For me as a guy, I need to compete against all of the other guys who are out there, just desperate for a relationship, and are putting all of this effort into researching the "science of attracting women".
Add in my bit of idealism that women are actually human beings, and shouldn't just be calculated down to a science, and you have the clear solution: why even bother?
I've often wondered the same things and I've had the same observations -- especially on dating sites.
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Responding to the post about dating being hard work for men, not for women:
I'm a woman and I just quit dating (online and otherwise) because it required hard work, such as:
1. Respond to messages that say little. I'm not talking just about the ones that say, "Hey, 'sup?" Those ones I ignored. I was working hard to find a way to respond to a person that seemed decent but opened with something so lacking in substance I couldn't find much to say. Granted, I'm an introvert, a little Aspie, and not great at small talk. If they prefer opening with the latter, they're probably lucky to be weeding me out so easily! I was also immediately exhausted by indications that people wanted to start with an online back-and-forth, e.g., "So, you like to write...Me too." Oh. Ask me out. (And yes, where I'm interested, I do ask a guy out. Even if he opens with something tentative.)
2. Find people I have hope around. To do that, delete those from Not Here, delete the ones with "sup?", read all remaining profiles, delete the ones whose profiles are near-empty, delete the ones only looking for sex. That leaves almost no one, so start hunting through the local profiles and emailing people.
3. Arrange child care. Oy vey. Oh, now the guy needs to reschedule... Cancel child care, start again. Again, maybe they are feeling very happy/lucky to be weeding out the full-time parent?
4. Dress. That is, step outside of my norm of dressing however I feel like dressing in a moment. Maybe that's not even necessary. Cultural norms have been convincing me it is, but maybe on my next round I'll test that.
5. Have new pictures taken, because mine do not have enough skin exposed and makeup shimmering to attract attention amongst all the fancy chicks.
6. And here was one of the biggies, here was a thing I couldn't do any more of: Hold up more than half of the conversation. One really nice fellow emailed me after, "That was great... I feel we barely scratched the surface." And I felt like, "Oh man, I did! I scratched the surface, dug through the sediment, excavated... all to get the conversation going and holding." For him, it felt like a light, lovely, delightful conversation. For me, it felt like a ton of work to get us there. Now, I don't put this on him. He is an intelligent, sweet guy. Sometimes I ponder taking him up on his offer of a second date. What I realized is that I work hard on dates. I recently left a relationship in which I worked hard in every interaction, especially to create conversation. So, I am very weary and wary in that area right now. I think I shouldn't date until I have let go of my natural impulse to make the date so easy and lovely for the person across from me. I mean, I certainly want to help the other feel comfortable. But I was going too far. A codependent approach to first dates. And when a relationship starts there, where I am working this hard to support conversation, I'm terrified that four years later, I will still be doing that...while the guy is (referencing last relationship) wordlessly cheating on me.
7. Fending off unwanted physical contact. I'm a slow mover. I need to know someone and develop strong attraction before I want to be with them physically, and even when I get there I still want, god forbid, STI tests. The last guy I dated was ready for, um, way more from the first date. For seven dates I worked hard to keep him at bay.
In the end, I just thought, "Nah..." Maybe in some months I'll have some energy again.
re: "What do you do?"
I'm in the camp that would run fast from a guy who insisted (i.e., said twice) that he's [a stuntman, other untrue silly thing], but man, "In the event of?" would make me pee laughing and totally seal the deal for me! "Investor" would also suffice.
About everything else...
Yes, men and women into All Things Mustache are a minority, and even among those of us who are, there is actually quite a bit of variation and dissension, so it's not like Mustaches makes us inherently compatible. And my cheating beloved was super Mustache, so I've learned to prioritize things other than Mustachianism. A guy my age (40s) would need to be debt-free and have enough monthly income to cover his needs and a bit of luxury, but beyond that, I look for articulate, conversational, honest, faithful (in whatever context we define that together), hygienic, safety-conscious, law-abiding (yet creative), etc.
Basically, it sounds like you have to fend off unwanted sexual contact. Men don't have that problem. Men generally don't get any sexual contact unless they actively seek out women, talk to them, ask them on dates, and hope one of them will actually take them up on the offer. You sound like you're having to work to find decent guys. Men have to actively work to find any women at all. Guess who has it harder. (men) Guess who has more options, even without trying at all. (women)
It's a fundamentally imbalanced system. I basically now see it as dating economics 101. Men (on average) clearly must want women more than women want men, or men wouldn't need to do all of the work and take all of the risks (such as rejection). Basically, a woman must have higher expected value for a man than vice versa. It's very similar to finding a job - most people need to apply for a job, and companies select one person out of all that apply. The same thing happens for men and women.
The problem happens when you enter a man who wouldn't mind being in a relationship, but isn't desperate for one like many other men. Those other men are basically willing to pay a higher price for the women (with their time, effort, money, etc) than he is. Those men also date multiple women at once, reducing the available supply of women available for other men. And there you have the problem: if a man wants to find a woman, he has to compete against these more skilled men (due to spending more time/effort into perfecting their "science of attraction"), and also compete against more desperate men, both categories of which are quite likely dating multiple women.
It's a losing deal for many men.
+10
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As far as trying to answer the question of "what you do" seriously and honestly for potential mates, I wish there was a word to combine all of the little individual things you do that help keep you in this low-expense lifestyle - like an investor, financial advisor/planner, chef, cyclist, handy man/woman, travel agent (to get good deals), house cleaner, auto mechanic (if you fix your own cars), social director, etc.
If this was a valid answer if you were doing this stuff for other people and getting paid for doing it, why can't we answer the question the same way if we are doing it for ourselves and getting paid in the sense of lowering our costs?
And I suppose some people get paid to be a life coach...well you are your own life coach.
This sort of thing (often suggested to stay-at-home moms [and I use "mom" on purpose because they usually are]) is misleading because most people who describe themselves as a "handyman" or a "financial advisor" etc. actually have training and education in those areas. Saying "I'm a chef" when you're just an amateur is kind of posing.
Yeah, you're probably right. I have a soft spot for this because my mom was a SAHM (after baby #2 or 4 born and coming to the US as immigrants so it was a sacrifice). My mom always felt put down by her sisters who worked outside of the house. Of course, one sister (my aunt) had my grandmother living with her tending to the necessary duties. The other aunt is just an amazing selfless always working kind of person (she's 89 now and so active and in great health).
Just this past weekend, my mom was telling me that her sisters brought up her SAHM status again recently and told her she was lucky. Mind you - they are all in their 80s now and not working outside of the house. I used these same words I said here to tell her that she did a lot for her family and taught us a lot of stuff because she was at home, and she shouldn't listen to her sisters. It's true - if they had hired someone to cook for us, no one would have looked down on that person for cooking since it was their "job" they were being paid for. But my mom doing it for her family is then looked down upon by her own sisters who said she was lucky she didn't have to have a job. I think my mom appreciated my words.
Makes no sense to me...sounds like society only values work if an outside person pays you for it. If you do it for your own family and bypass the cost of the middleman, then some in our society don't put as much importance to it. Makes me mad because my mom was an awesome mom.
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But what do women need to do in the same situations? Just respond, just choose which of the countless men out there that approach them that they are interested in. This is just as true on dating sites as anywhere else.
Sorry I didn't notice if this was already mentioned. But the only women I know who are courted by countless men and turning them down left and right are well... "super hawt chicks," for lack of a better term. Maybe you are only aiming at the perfect 10s when you yourself are not? Either you're mainly asking out really attractive women or it's in your mind that women have such easy pickings. Some do. Most don't.
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But what do women need to do in the same situations? Just respond, just choose which of the countless men out there that approach them that they are interested in. This is just as true on dating sites as anywhere else.
Sorry I didn't notice if this was already mentioned. But the only women I know who are courted by countless men and turning them down left and right are well... "super hawt chicks," for lack of a better term. Maybe you are only aiming at the perfect 10s when you yourself are not? Either you're mainly asking out really attractive women or it's in your mind that women have such easy pickings. Some do. Most don't.
Those men are attracted to the ones with the fake nails, expensive highlights that cost $200 a pop, probably had a boob job, and are impressed with the money the dudes are doling out on them. So where is all these 'countless men' that I can pick and choose from? Haha.. or to put it in perspective from a female point of view, where are all these countless men that aren't trying to impress me with their Harley, their souped-up 4 mpg huge take up two-lanes truck, or try to take me to dinner for an $30 steak. It is also hard on the female side to find someone that isn't looking for miss manicured bling bling, just so y'all know.
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I recommend reading this post http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/
Number 3 is a kick in the pants, but it was something that I needed.
Sorry to necro this thread. Just want to say that post on cracked was the best thing I've read this year. By a very very big margin.
Thankyou