The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Guava on March 10, 2016, 11:59:17 AM
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Has anyone here factored financially caring for aging parents into their FI number?
I have become quite concerned that SO and I will need to financially support his parents as they get older because they have almost no assets, no savings, and no retirement accounts or pension. I expect social security to cover minimal expenses for them but there will definitely be a gap. I also suspect we will subsidize my parents, at least when they go into assisted living/nursing homes by around $150 each month, depending on how active they are in those places (I got this number based on how much my parents subsidize my grandma currently for things like haircuts, crafts, snacks, decorations, and pay to play activities).
I have no way of knowing how much these expenses will be, especially for SO's parents, so I am trying to figure out how much I should budget each month to calculate my FI number. Any suggestions/personal experiences?
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We have established a monthly allowance for my MIL that remains a part of our ongoing plan. For us its $300 a month which is not based on anything scientific at all. We figure $300 buys groceries for one little old lady who doesn't eat very much, and what she does with it is her business. Even if we fire, she will still get her allowance.
For us, the biggest challenge was getting over the idea that we had any sort of say in how she used it (like using it to help bail out other family members). It took some time for us to get over ourselves and our control freak natures, but once we did, it changed the dynamic to something much healthier.
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When the time comes they should look at senior housing which only takes a third of their income for rent. This will help their SS go further.
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I made a line item in my budget for family contributions. I count it as part my monthly charitable contribution, and it equals about $200/month. Right now I just chuck it into a savings account, ready for distribution if necessary. My parents do have some assets; if they never need help, I'll parcel the money out to my nieces and nephews equally when they reach their majority.
I'm also fairly certain my mom will end up living with me and my wife, should anything happen to my dad.
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You can help your parents and your husband's parents figure out what SS will pay out. If they sign up for a myssa.gov account (https://www.ssa.gov/myaccount/ (https://www.ssa.gov/myaccount/)), the calculator will give results based on actual work history and earned credits. Definitely also look around at the different housing options like Cassie suggested. If there's not enough information online, calling or visiting the organizations would likely be very helpful. They have to deal with the financials every day.
This is something that has definitely changed our FIRE plans. Over 20% of our yearly spending right now goes towards paying for a relative's care. This will continue when FIRE'd, and there might be more spending down the line. My husband and I are naturally very cautious people, and thankfully also fairly high income (two engineers). Our plan is forecast our current spending into retirement, but to also delay FIRE by some time as a bit of a buffer...
Once we reach our 4% withdrawal rate number, we plan on working part time or have some other type of arrangement set up (real estate, maybe a side gig becomes profitable, etc) until we're closer to something like a 3% withdrawal rate. Best case scenario, it's more than enough and we die giving millions to charity. This plan is a lot more conservative than really needed, of course.
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We have established a monthly allowance for my MIL that remains a part of our ongoing plan. For us its $300 a month which is not based on anything scientific at all. We figure $300 buys groceries for one little old lady who doesn't eat very much, and what she does with it is her business. Even if we fire, she will still get her allowance.
For us, the biggest challenge was getting over the idea that we had any sort of say in how she used it (like using it to help bail out other family members). It took some time for us to get over ourselves and our control freak natures, but once we did, it changed the dynamic to something much healthier.
Have you ever had an issue of her spending the money frivolously and the not having (or claiming she doesn't have) enough money for the basics (rent, groceries, utilities)? I have a dear friend who has been through financial hell with her MIL, and that was part of the cycle. Obviously this is going to depend a great deal on the personality and choices of the person receiving the money, but I'm wondering if it has come up for you.
Thankfully, my parents have well more than enough, along with amazing medical insurance. I don't know my MIL's exact situation, but I know it isn't good. I wouldn't mind something like a few hundred bucks a month, but I worry that the same habits that put someone in a position of needing the help in the first place will cause them to fritter away however much money they are given, meaning that however much they are given, it won't be enough.
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Have you ever had an issue of her spending the money frivolously and the not having (or claiming she doesn't have) enough money for the basics (rent, groceries, utilities)? I have a dear friend who has been through financial hell with her MIL, and that was part of the cycle. Obviously this is going to depend a great deal on the personality and choices of the person receiving the money, but I'm wondering if it has come up for you.
Thankfully, my parents have well more than enough, along with amazing medical insurance. I don't know my MIL's exact situation, but I know it isn't good. I wouldn't mind something like a few hundred bucks a month, but I worry that the same habits that put someone in a position of needing the help in the first place will cause them to fritter away however much money they are given, meaning that however much they are given, it won't be enough.
Yes of course, there is always something more. She lives on her own in a dilapidated trailer, and we were contributing financially to repairs, furnace replacements etc. This year was the year we put our foot down and said no more. It was hard...she took it really hard but we are all back to being friends again.
For us it was a matter of explaining that her insistence on living in "her" house was creating a horrible burden for the rest of the family, and that we were willing to move her into a more appropriate space (elder apartments, in our town, cheaper than the rent on her mobile home spot) etc. She demanded to stay in place, so she needed to figure out how to make that work. And you know what...she did. She brought in a room-mate for a few months and the extra cash paid for some much needed repairs. Yes I felt guilty about taking the hard line with her, but really, she made her decision and I shouldn't have to pay for that.
Whether they do it to manipulate or just circumstances happen, caring for your elder parents is going to be hard. I always wonder if we are getting it right.
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I know I need to think about this, but it makes me a little angry. My parents never listened to advice I offered when they asked, nor gave my potential much thought. Instead, they focused on my brother, who ended up costing them a couple hundred thousand bucks in unwise investments in recent years. Not to mention the money they spent on legal and other fees getting his butt out of trouble time and time again in his younger years. Though I did well in school and avoided trouble, they never talked to me about college nor gave me guidance towards building my life/career. They did pretty well with their business, but I ended up paying for my own college, and never asked for financial help as an adult.
My brother eventually split and cut ties with us, leaving me to help mom as dad deteriorated, and now it's up to me to look after mom. Thanks bro.
Mom is in ok shape financially now, but she could run out of money if she lives a long time. So maybe I should work longer than planned, but the thought grinds me.
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When I see these types of threads I can not believe the number of people that allow their kids to support them partially. My Mom and Dad lived on their small savings, SS and pension that was not big. After my DAd died my Mom lived on SS and the much reduced pension. Both were frugal and would never accept $ from any of us kids. My Mom even made sure she had enough $ to pay for her own funeral. There are many programs to help seniors. AARP also has p.t. jobs in the community. They pay the wage and the senior works for someone else. There also are food stamps, meals on wheels, etc.
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Currently, 10-15% of our take home is spent on helping support parents (mostly one parent). It is one of the reasons we won't be retiring early. I anticipate that will stay more or less the same until said parents pass away, which could be another 20 odd years...so could definitely overlap with our regular retirement ages. So I do anticipate ~15% of our income going to that more or less forever. We can't really afford more without seriously disadvantaging our own long term security, particularly since we will not have children on whom we can rely to help us out as we age. ETA: for numerical clarity, this works out to 500-800$ worth of support per month, but most of that is not just cash handed out...it is actual payment of bills that we handle and control. A small amount is more or less emergency cash infusions. We know that isn't ideal because we have no control at all over what happens to it, but the hassle of trying to manage the situation with that particular parent is not worth it.
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I know I need to think about this, but it makes me a little angry. My parents never listened to advice I offered when they asked, nor gave my potential much thought. Instead, they focused on my brother, who ended up costing them a couple hundred thousand bucks in unwise investments in recent years. Not to mention the money they spent on legal and other fees getting his butt out of trouble time and time again in his younger years. Though I did well in school and avoided trouble, they never talked to me about college nor gave me guidance towards building my life/career. They did pretty well with their business, but I ended up paying for my own college, and never asked for financial help as an adult.
My brother eventually split and cut ties with us, leaving me to help mom as dad deteriorated, and now it's up to me to look after mom. Thanks bro.
Mom is in ok shape financially now, but she could run out of money if she lives a long time. So maybe I should work longer than planned, but the thought grinds me.
It never felt so good to be so right...not. My parents/in law parents also have virtually no assets. It comes down the butt-wiping. My parents wiped my butt as a kid, so if they need it, I'll try to make some preparations to help them out. It's a shame for the frugal to see a lifetime of waste catch up to someone who was warned.
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WS: have you looked into other options for that parent. That is a ton of $ to be supporting another adult. Senior housing is usually quite nice and very affordable since it is based on income. I don't expect my kids to help us. It is my responsibility to take care of myself. There are lots of programs that help low income seniors. I would look into this.
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WS: have you looked into other options for that parent. That is a ton of $ to be supporting another adult. Senior housing is usually quite nice and very affordable since it is based on income. I don't expect my kids to help us. It is my responsibility to take care of myself. There are lots of programs that help low income seniors. I would look into this.
Yes, the options for senior support are not good here. Essentially, in order for her to qualify for ANY support (get her below the threshold to qualify), we would have to pull enough support so that her standard of living would take a major dive. We could do this, and then try to game the system by passing her under the table cash, but that is risky and morally questionable. As it is, we can support her in an entirely separate house (so at least not losing money to rent) because we are in a really low cost of living area. However, there is a possibility we'll be moving at some point, and we would have to entirely rethink how we do things at that point. It's slightly possible we would end up in a state with better safety nets for the poor. Or she might need to go back to her original state of residence, where support for poor seniors is better, or we'd have to adjust her standard of living down and get her into senior housing. Or she'll be living with us, which will require a much larger and more specifically designed (and therefore presumably more expensive) living space so we could all stand each other long term, but at least then her small SS income would be pooled in with ours. We try to play it one year at a time and plan accordingly.
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Thanks everyone for your replies and ideas.
CheapskateWife- I think I would really struggle with letting go of the spending at first but I can see how this would create a healthier relationship than dictating where monies can be spent. I never even thought about that aspect of giving money before.
Cassie- Both sets of parents should have paid for houses by the time they retire in 6-8 years so I am not sure that senior housing would be the best idea if they have decent funds. When the time comes I will keep this in mind and run some numbers. As for parents letting their kids financially support them, I always knew I would help me parents and so would my brother. My parents kindly paid for the majority of college for both of us in return for us helping as needed when they age. My brother will likely provide them the majority of their support needed and I will handle the care, doctor visits, home maintenance, etc. My SO's parents...they just don't believe in investing and have always been low income. My family was raised with the younger generation supporting the older generation at least somewhat financially and I would prefer to help them as long as it doesn't jeopardize my own financial security than send them to assistance programs that are already overburdened in this area.
SS- good idea. If I start that line item soon I should have a good buffer built up for when it is needed.
Felicity- as a fellow engineer, I understand the caution. That's why I am thinking about this! Thanks for the social security link. I will go over it with my parents at least.
V- I also have the fear that whatever they will be given won't be enough even though none of them are super spendy...yet.
o2b- sounds like a rough situation. Hopefully it improves!
WS- how has paying individual bills worked out? Has it created any strain in your relationship?
Cool- yes, it comes down to butt-wiping for me too. One of the biggest issues within my family is that instead of saving heavily for retirement, my parents are paying for their parents, and some of them don't really care about this financial burden it places on them. It seems my family is just sort of built this way.
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Senior housing can be really nice. I have 2 friends that live in 2 bedroom really nice apartments that are not very old. I had one grandma that needed some help because when my grandpa died his pension died with him. It was not an option way back then for her to get a part of it. They got her into a new senior apartment but did have to help with meds, etc because she only had a small SS. One other sibling helped too. But they did not have to help to the point that it affected their retirement or to the level that some of you are talking about.
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When I see these types of threads I can not believe the number of people that allow their kids to support them partially.
When I see these kinds of questions, I'll admit that able parents who accept financial assistance aren't what springs to my mind either. But what does spring to mind is the other extreme -- not kids providing parents $300 or even $800/month, but rather parents who can't live independently because of cognitive or physical decline and who require expensive assistance, long term.
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However, there are programs that will help with these type of issues. I was a social worker for awhile and have helped many people connect with services. I think that often people are not aware of what is available to help.
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Cassie's right, depending on where you live, senior housing can be really nice. It is where we live. I once went inside an acquaintance's apartment in a public senior housing complex, and it was small but really clean and the complex seemed well maintained. The woman we knew who lived there was in her late 70's/early 80's and widowed. She explained to us that she only paid, I think, $175/month rent for her apartment in a really convenient location, because that was X% of her monthly SS benefits. She said there was a little van that came around a few times/week to pick seniors up to take them shopping and drop them off for medical appointments. It looked to me like the woman had a pretty nice life and she didn't need to take any money from her family to live.
Sometimes emergency infusions of cash can help relatives who need it, but it seems to me that our time can often be more important to our family members than money. For those of us who are retired already, we can offer our time to help care for our elderly parents. I would think that that would be even more valuable to many of them than a few hundred bucks a month.
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Yep - I can relate to this. We're not supporting parents yet, but I already see the writing on the wall. I'm fortunate to make more money than I ever expected and will work a bit longer because of the issue above. There will be some limits depending on the parent.
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I am also concerned about this. My parents are in their mid 60s, and while they do have significant assets to support themselves, I do worry about what they will do once they decide to sell their oversized family home. I really like the idea of family compounds where aging, but still very physically capable and competent, parents live as neighbors next to their adult kids. Sometimes this works by having the parents chip in and help pay for the construction of their own cottage on a larger property owned by the kids, and other times families just buy 2 houses in adjacent lots.
This type of situation would work best for a family like ours: we get along with our parents, I'm a stay at home mom, and the grandparents are eager to help watch the grandkids and be an integral part of family life. That said, I do not want to be living in the same home as my parents or supporting them financially. I guess my ideal scenario would have them living as my neighbors so we could get away from eachother but still help each other out, and where they could save alot of money they would otherwise spend on expensive facilities to use to pay for in home care until they absolutely had to move to a nursing facility.
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Thanks everyone for your replies and ideas.
CheapskateWife- I think I would really struggle with letting go of the spending at first but I can see how this would create a healthier relationship than dictating where monies can be spent. I never even thought about that aspect of giving money before.
Cassie- Both sets of parents should have paid for houses by the time they retire in 6-8 years so I am not sure that senior housing would be the best idea if they have decent funds. When the time comes I will keep this in mind and run some numbers. As for parents letting their kids financially support them, I always knew I would help me parents and so would my brother. My parents kindly paid for the majority of college for both of us in return for us helping as needed when they age. My brother will likely provide them the majority of their support needed and I will handle the care, doctor visits, home maintenance, etc. My SO's parents...they just don't believe in investing and have always been low income. My family was raised with the younger generation supporting the older generation at least somewhat financially and I would prefer to help them as long as it doesn't jeopardize my own financial security than send them to assistance programs that are already overburdened in this area.
SS- good idea. If I start that line item soon I should have a good buffer built up for when it is needed.
Felicity- as a fellow engineer, I understand the caution. That's why I am thinking about this! Thanks for the social security link. I will go over it with my parents at least.
V- I also have the fear that whatever they will be given won't be enough even though none of them are super spendy...yet.
o2b- sounds like a rough situation. Hopefully it improves!
WS- how has paying individual bills worked out? Has it created any strain in your relationship?
Cool- yes, it comes down to butt-wiping for me too. One of the biggest issues within my family is that instead of saving heavily for retirement, my parents are paying for their parents, and some of them don't really care about this financial burden it places on them. It seems my family is just sort of built this way.
I feel that, overall, it has been less psychologically stressful for bills to be in our names and come directly us. That way I don't find myself stewing over how she might spend cash that we directly give her. Also, it means the expenses are more predictable. As it is, we cover almost all fixed monthly expenses (mortgage, phone, utilities, insurance for house and car) and she covers food, entertainment, gas, and incidental expenses such as medical bills and car repairs. She isn't particularly wasteful apart from a smoking habit...she'd rather go low on food than skip cigs...and the few things she 'blows' money on are her main pleasures in life, such as gardening. She's very open about her spending and generally responsible about it in exchange for the stability we provide.
Occasionally, we get into some back and forthing that creates some minor psychological stress. Recently, for example, I asked her to take over her paltry monthly Netflix bill, because she was sitting on the disks for months at a time and not watching them. I told her if she wanted to waste 13$/month that way, she could do it on her dime. She also gets occasionally moan-y about lacking internet and cable, and feeling 'cut off' from the world that all the rest of the family takes for granted. However, she doesn't expect us to pay for that kind of stuff...so far she hasn't gotten to the point of prioritizing them in terms of her own spending.
Overall, I much prefer the predictability and control of paying a lot of her bills directly as opposed to how things went for the 10 years previous to this arrangement, during which she was always living right on a ragged edge, subject to bill collectors and sudden crises, and we never knew when/how/how much help the situation would require. The other parent we're occasionally helping out functions more like my mom used to, and that creates much more stress for us, even though the overall $ that we spend on that parent is smaller.
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Sometimes emergency infusions of cash can help relatives who need it, but it seems to me that our time can often be more important to our family members than money. For those of us who are retired already, we can offer our time to help care for our elderly parents. I would think that that would be even more valuable to many of them than a few hundred bucks a month.
This is part of my struggle with my MIL...because of our work and children, we are in TX for at least another 3 years....MIL insists on staying in Boulder, thus ensuring that the only help we can offer in an emergency is our $. I would love to give her our time...really.
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My siblings and I chip in a certain amount each month to have round the clock caretaker for my mother with dementia. She has no assets. Wouldn't put her in a nursing home unless there was no choice. I feel it is the right thing to do. My mother did not make good financial decisions either - but that is water under the bridge at this point.
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When my Dad needed care and my Mom or I could not do it medicare paid for someone to come in with a small co-pay for her to pay. Have you looked to see if anything like this is still available? It may help cut your costs.
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thanks OP, I'm glad to see that I'm not alone when it comes to struggling with a budget.
I'm planning to budget $500/mo for parental assistance.
My current situation spans 3 generations.
My grandpa depends on my dad for spending money.
My dad is nearing retirement age and depends on my siblings and I to make ends meet.
Sometimes, I find the whole situation depressing.
OTOH, I've found their example to provide great motivation to scrimp and save and it's probably why I got so interested in frugal living in the first place.
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I hope to not have to support my parents much financially while they are physically able. My dad loves staying busy and I suspect his retirement will only be a downshift to more fun work. But I want to prepare for worst case scenario such as a disability. I had a short discussion with my brother today and he is also preparing for this. I would much rather spend my time with them cleaning, helping with laundry, or whatever else they need than give money since I am a mile away.
SO's parents...well I am just going to budget to help them because I don't see them being able to make ends meet. Good, bad, or otherwise, that's just the reality. I will keep senior housing in mind for both parents and make sure I look into all of the social programs to help when the time comes. SO and I also need to have a conversation with his brother. I am hoping that if we prepare for worst case scenario now we will be able to handle whatever comes our way.
I appreciate everyone's input on this. You have had some ideas I never considered and I need to find out more about our parents' long term health care and living desires.
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Tony- I am also in a 3 generation situation with my parents having started providing $200-300 each month to their parents (while their siblings do next to nothing) and I expect the costs to get higher. It is difficult for them to save for their own needs in this situation. My parents will never ask for money, but they may need it so I am budgeting $400 a month to cover both sets of parents. How many people are you planning to support with $500 a month?
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$500/mo is just for my mom and dad. there are too many complicating factors for me to budget beyond that.
Plus, my wallet would break if I tried to stretch it across 4 generations, covering my grandparents through my kids!
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I think in some circumstances kids may have to help but with so many on this thread saying they help and on other threads I wonder how much is just enabling the parents to keep living the lifestyle they want but can't afford. If people can't afford to live in their homes then they need to realize that and sell to free up some of the $ or maybe doing a reverse mortgage depending on how old they are. It does not seem fair to me to burden your kids with your problems. There are always solutions that don't involve other people giving you $.
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I think in some circumstances kids may have to help but with so many on this thread saying they help and on other threads I wonder how much is just enabling the parents to keep living the lifestyle they want but can't afford. If people can't afford to live in their homes then they need to realize that and sell to free up some of the $ or maybe doing a reverse mortgage depending on how old they are. It does not seem fair to me to burden your kids with your problems. There are always solutions that don't involve other people giving you $.
There is definitely some truth to this in our situation. I guess it is a trade off between enabling a life that will still allow some pleasures, or allowing the person to sink into a situation that you know will make them even LESS functional. It can be hard to relate if you are wired differently, but there are in fact people who are NOT motivated to change by bad consequences, but instead react with even more denial, passivity, shame, and helplessness. My mother got into her situation due to multiple factors, some in her control and some not. By the time we stepped in, she had been in a slow spiral for about 15 years, during which I was constantly worried about her situation. Her misery and anxiety, her lack of money, her lack of health care, etc., created stress for me regardless of whether she was responsible (which she partly was) and regardless of how private about it she tried to be. She was in her early 60s with no house, no assets, some debt, a barely functional car, and a low paying job with no benefits or health insurance. We could have just let her go on government assistance, and at some point in the future, we very well might have to do so. However, at the time, I just wanted to get her into a stable, low-stress environment where I could maintain some control without completely taking over her day to day life.
Despite my resentment about this difficult and undesirable situation, I still love her and want her to have a little joy in life. I would prefer not to make her live in a situation that I know will make her more depressed, if I can reasonably avoid it. So we made the choice we did with the financial options we had at the time. If we were facing the same situation now, a number of years on, we might try to do it differently. I guess that although she might karmic-ally deserve to suffer the true consequences of a lot of her mistakes, it would just be a little too hard for me to stand by and watch it.
There is a lot of psychological complexity to these situations (which also tend to have huge ripple effects across entire networks of family/friends), and those complexities play large roles in decision making. It's not a matter of just $ to consider in all cases, IMO.
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We aren't planning to financially support our parents. I don't believe they'd ask and I don't feel obligated to offer.
No doubt if there were an emergency (such as an illness) we'd help out to the best of our ability. We love our parents and we're part of their support system. But I'm not going to work extra years to pay for someone else's retirement or poor planning, so we aren't building parental support into our ER budget.
Thankfully our parents have been responsible as far as I can tell. They have modest means but paid off homes and a fairly self-sufficient mindset. The big worry is something like a stroke or dementia. That's hard to plan for and could have a big financial impact.
SIS
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We will likely end up having to support my husband's parents, to some extent. We decided that if the time comes, we will give them our church tithe. The frustrating aspect will be that my husband's siblings will likely be unwilling to help, even though they are in a position to do so. My in-laws aren't super spendy, but they could do much better.
My main concern is that I don't think I could have them live with us. I'm just not cut out for it. I feel uncomfortable when they are in my house just for a visit.
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Tony- I wasn't sure if that number was for two sets of parents or just one set. Once upon a time I thought I might support other family members as well but have since decided that I financially cannot do that and those people have to figure it out on their own.
As far as enabling our parents go, yes. Maybe I will be enabling them. But it's this:
There is a lot of psychological complexity to these situations (which also tend to have huge ripple effects across entire networks of family/friends), and those complexities play large roles in decision making. It's not a matter of just $ to consider in all cases, IMO.
My parents have done a lot for me and sacrificed a lot for me (and my brother). They have made plenty of mistakes and they do have spendy habits, but they have been there for me through an autoimmune disease, cancer, home disasters and remodels, paid for our college, and sacrificed a lot to give us a decent childhood in spite of their lack of education and being teenage parents. Yes, a lot of that is just being a good parent. I just feel that giving them maybe a few hundred dollars in retirement to make them a little more comfortable would be a good payback and worth it to me. Now if they can afford to take lavish vacations all the time and way overspend, I might rethink this. So far, they don't exhibit those qualities. They have just been so busy taking care of everyone else that they got a very late start in taking care of themselves. I am hoping that some planning will help me avoid that same fate.
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I think in some circumstances kids may have to help but with so many on this thread saying they help and on other threads I wonder how much is just enabling the parents to keep living the lifestyle they want but can't afford. If people can't afford to live in their homes then they need to realize that and sell to free up some of the $ or maybe doing a reverse mortgage depending on how old they are. It does not seem fair to me to burden your kids with your problems. There are always solutions that don't involve other people giving you $.
I don't disagree with this, but I see DH have a terrible time telling his mom that she can't stay in her home, that if she spent the $300 we gave her and has no money for food that's not our problem, etc.
My solution to "I have no money" would be, "Oh no! Of course we will help. We will loo at everything and help you set up a budget. We'll find you a good realtor and help prepare the house for sale (if we live nearby). We'll research cheap apartments for you, and help you discover what programs you qualify for. We'll find food banks for you, so if it comes to that you have alternatives. We can help you sell stuff on ebay, and help you downgrade your car and find bus routes, and help you apply for jobs if you are physically able." All of that would happen before we even considered giving a penny, and if someone isn't interested in those things, then it seems they really don't need or want our help. I expect someone to exhaust their own resources before using mine. But I know that's not necessarily the way it will play out, and I also know that it's easy for me to say that when it's not my parents in question.
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My solution to "I have no money" would be, "Oh no! Of course we will help. We will loo at everything and help you set up a budget. We'll find you a good realtor and help prepare the house for sale (if we live nearby). We'll research cheap apartments for you, and help you discover what programs you qualify for. We'll find food banks for you, so if it comes to that you have alternatives. We can help you sell stuff on ebay, and help you downgrade your car and find bus routes, and help you apply for jobs if you are physically able." All of that would happen before we even considered giving a penny, and if someone isn't interested in those things, then it seems they really don't need or want our help. I expect someone to exhaust their own resources before using mine. But I know that's not necessarily the way it will play out, and I also know that it's easy for me to say that when it's not my parents in question.
^This.
In an emergency, my wife and I would gladly help our parents out with money temporarily, but budgeting money to give them every month, forever, is not going to happen. Everyone needs to live within his means, and that goes for our parents as well.
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I will not need to support my parents as they age. DH's parents may want help at some point because they are terrible with money. I will not give them money, but I will always offer them a safe place to live and food. In other words, if they honestly can't do it on their own anymore, they can move into my house and eat the food that I buy. They live well beyond their means and wouldn't like this idea, but that's precisely why I would not offer them money. I don't want them to starve, but I'm not going to contribute to their overspending either!
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My solution to "I have no money" would be, "Oh no! Of course we will help. We will loo at everything and help you set up a budget. We'll find you a good realtor and help prepare the house for sale (if we live nearby). We'll research cheap apartments for you, and help you discover what programs you qualify for. We'll find food banks for you, so if it comes to that you have alternatives. We can help you sell stuff on ebay, and help you downgrade your car and find bus routes, and help you apply for jobs if you are physically able." All of that would happen before we even considered giving a penny, and if someone isn't interested in those things, then it seems they really don't need or want our help. I expect someone to exhaust their own resources before using mine. But I know that's not necessarily the way it will play out, and I also know that it's easy for me to say that when it's not my parents in question.
^This.
In an emergency, my wife and I would gladly help our parents out with money temporarily, but budgeting money to give them every month, forever, is not going to happen. Everyone needs to live within his means, and that goes for our parents as well.
I actually wouldn't be opposed to a small monthly stipend, if, when all those other things were exhausted, there was still a small shortfall. The problem with that would be trusting that the money would be spent as it was supposed to, rather than blown on spendypants stuff, triggering another request for money. That's how it has gone for several friends. "I need money for milk as I have literally no food!" And then a month later, it's a Home Shopping Network spree or a home remodel or a weekend away. And then-- surprise!--next mont no money for rent. If a parent was truly living frugally (allowing a few small luxuries, within reason as I wouldn't want my or DH's parents to have to live completely without a few small joys, even at my expense), and the money still didn't work out, that's fine. (Also, I'd frankly rather spend some of my money to help them with rent than to have any of them live with me is they were capable of living alone. I actually have great parents/ILs, but I value my privacy muchly and would be willing to pay for it, if that was the only way to get it.) It's situations where someone lived the high life on their own money, rather than saving for retirement, and then wants to continue living the high life on my money, that are the issue.
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Threads like this make me so thankful to have parents and in-laws who are financially responsible.
Well, I know my in-laws are, and I assume my parents are.
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When my Dad needed care and my Mom or I could not do it medicare paid for someone to come in with a small co-pay for her to pay. Have you looked to see if anything like this is still available? It may help cut your costs.
In our state, medicare will not pay for in home care unless there is a need for skilled nursing care. The dementia diagnosis doesn't cut it. After she had surgery last year, they did pay for a short time for a nurse to stop by to check on her wound - for about 10 minutes. I think it varies by state. She does live with a family member and other than the aid ($20 an hour - yikes) and depends and ensure - she spends no money. We use her small ss check to go towards those costs. I think medicaid looks at household income and the family member she lives with does not want the government involved in their business. If we put her in a nursing home, medicaid would pay the cost. Family is opposed to that. It can be tough. I think in the old days, grandma just sat in the corner in her rocking chair. I think that is how many other cultures handle these kind of situations too. If she was mentally with it and just spending her money willy nilly, I would not be so inclined to help her.
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When my Dad needed care and my Mom or I could not do it medicare paid for someone to come in with a small co-pay for her to pay. Have you looked to see if anything like this is still available? It may help cut your costs.
In our state, medicare will not pay for in home care unless there is a need for skilled nursing care. The dementia diagnosis doesn't cut it. After she had surgery last year, they did pay for a short time for a nurse to stop by to check on her wound - for about 10 minutes. I think it varies by state. She does live with a family member and other than the aid ($20 an hour - yikes) and depends and ensure - she spends no money. We use her small ss check to go towards those costs. I think medicaid looks at household income and the family member she lives with does not want the government involved in their business. If we put her in a nursing home, medicaid would pay the cost. Family is opposed to that. It can be tough. I think in the old days, grandma just sat in the corner in her rocking chair. I think that is how many other cultures handle these kind of situations too. If she was mentally with it and just spending her money willy nilly, I would not be so inclined to help her.
I don't think Medicare benefits depend on your state--it's a federal program administered by the feds--but Medicaid benefits do.
Also, look up Medicaid definitions of household. Just having grandma (or mom, or whoever) living with you doesn't automatically make her part of your household. Here's a good overview, but definitely confirm this with an elder law/Medicaid lawyer in your state before making decisions based on it:
http://www.healthreformbeyondthebasics.org/key-facts-determining-household-size-for-medicaid-and-chip/
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I am fortunate to not have to financially support my mother, but I am increasingly trying to manage matters long distance while she tries to stay in her home as she ages (now in her 90s). When she wanted to update her will, we went to an Elder Law attorney in her city. He did that for a very reasonable rate (especially reasonable given that he discovered the previous attorneys had messed up my deceased Dad's trust documents but he could achieve the same distribution by altering my mother's), but also demonstrated tremendous knowledge about Medicare, Medicaid, available housing for the elderly, and some veterans benefits we knew nothing about. I just mention this because it might assist some people trying to care for their parents.
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Thanks everyone for your replies and ideas.
CheapskateWife- I think I would really struggle with letting go of the spending at first but I can see how this would create a healthier relationship than dictating where monies can be spent. I never even thought about that aspect of giving money before.
Cassie- Both sets of parents should have paid for houses by the time they retire in 6-8 years so I am not sure that senior housing would be the best idea if they have decent funds. When the time comes I will keep this in mind and run some numbers. As for parents letting their kids financially support them, I always knew I would help me parents and so would my brother. My parents kindly paid for the majority of college for both of us in return for us helping as needed when they age. My brother will likely provide them the majority of their support needed and I will handle the care, doctor visits, home maintenance, etc. My SO's parents...they just don't believe in investing and have always been low income. My family was raised with the younger generation supporting the older generation at least somewhat financially and I would prefer to help them as long as it doesn't jeopardize my own financial security than send them to assistance programs that are already overburdened in this area.
SS- good idea. If I start that line item soon I should have a good buffer built up for when it is needed.
Felicity- as a fellow engineer, I understand the caution. That's why I am thinking about this! Thanks for the social security link. I will go over it with my parents at least.
V- I also have the fear that whatever they will be given won't be enough even though none of them are super spendy...yet.
o2b- sounds like a rough situation. Hopefully it improves!
WS- how has paying individual bills worked out? Has it created any strain in your relationship?
Cool- yes, it comes down to butt-wiping for me too. One of the biggest issues within my family is that instead of saving heavily for retirement, my parents are paying for their parents, and some of them don't really care about this financial burden it places on them. It seems my family is just sort of built this way.
I feel that, overall, it has been less psychologically stressful for bills to be in our names and come directly us. That way I don't find myself stewing over how she might spend cash that we directly give her. Also, it means the expenses are more predictable. As it is, we cover almost all fixed monthly expenses (mortgage, phone, utilities, insurance for house and car) and she covers food, entertainment, gas, and incidental expenses such as medical bills and car repairs. She isn't particularly wasteful apart from a smoking habit...she'd rather go low on food than skip cigs...and the few things she 'blows' money on are her main pleasures in life, such as gardening. She's very open about her spending and generally responsible about it in exchange for the stability we provide.
Occasionally, we get into some back and forthing that creates some minor psychological stress. Recently, for example, I asked her to take over her paltry monthly Netflix bill, because she was sitting on the disks for months at a time and not watching them. I told her if she wanted to waste 13$/month that way, she could do it on her dime. She also gets occasionally moan-y about lacking internet and cable, and feeling 'cut off' from the world that all the rest of the family takes for granted. However, she doesn't expect us to pay for that kind of stuff...so far she hasn't gotten to the point of prioritizing them in terms of her own spending.
Overall, I much prefer the predictability and control of paying a lot of her bills directly as opposed to how things went for the 10 years previous to this arrangement, during which she was always living right on a ragged edge, subject to bill collectors and sudden crises, and we never knew when/how/how much help the situation would require. The other parent we're occasionally helping out functions more like my mom used to, and that creates much more stress for us, even though the overall $ that we spend on that parent is smaller.
What is your local library system like? Mine has 15,000 dvd titles. No
Netflx needed if money is tight.
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I think in some circumstances kids may have to help but with so many on this thread saying they help and on other threads I wonder how much is just enabling the parents to keep living the lifestyle they want but can't afford. If people can't afford to live in their homes then they need to realize that and sell to free up some of the $ or maybe doing a reverse mortgage depending on how old they are. It does not seem fair to me to burden your kids with your problems. There are always solutions that don't involve other people giving you $.
I agree with this,exactly.
But there is such a strong sentiment that keeping old folks in their homes is important..
And I see the old folks here in my neighborhood of 2,000 - 4,000 sq ft Victorian homes that need far more upkeep than can be done on modest incomes, and think "bullshit." But its hard to stem the tide of the "stay in their own homes" mindset.
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I think in some circumstances kids may have to help but with so many on this thread saying they help and on other threads I wonder how much is just enabling the parents to keep living the lifestyle they want but can't afford. If people can't afford to live in their homes then they need to realize that and sell to free up some of the $ or maybe doing a reverse mortgage depending on how old they are. It does not seem fair to me to burden your kids with your problems. There are always solutions that don't involve other people giving you $.
I agree with this,exactly.
But there is such a strong sentiment that keeping old folks in their homes is important..
And I see the old folks here in my neighborhood of 2,000 - 4,000 sq ft Victorian homes that need far more upkeep than can be done on modest incomes, and think "bullshit." But its hard to stem the tide of the "stay in their own homes" mindset.
It's not always about keeping them in their homes. I have friends who have enabled (read: forced) parents out of a home they couldn't afford. That didn't stop the bad financial decisions. In fact, if they had access to the proceeds from the sale of the house, it often increased the waste.
Some people will spend every penny they can get their hands on. It's compulsive. How do you deal with that? Especially if you are trying to allow them so dignity and quality of life? It's tough. Hardball is great, until you actually have to play it against someone you love and respect.
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We are in a situation currently with MIL that concerns us. FIL just passed away and they were big time spenders. They have several cars, motorcycle and traveled a lot. He left her with nothing....and she makes about $15 per hour. She refuses to discuss this with us (which is fine, she is a grown woman)....but is continually spending like crazy and it's hard to watch - especially wondering if she is going to expect us to help? She is 63 and talks about retiring in 2 years....just can't see how it's even possible.
DH just found out that she owes 9k to a contractor friend who remodeled their bathrooms 2 YEARS ago. No idea why this debt hasn't been settled yet (she said "i'm not going to beg for the bill.....just less money I have to pay right now" -- family friend so not sure if they are feeling guilty sending her the bill after her husband died?....but DH is embarrassed as it's a family friend) - but when DH asked her if she has the money to pay it she said "it's my money so you don't worry about it."
Not knowing her situation is brutal. :(
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The, "it's fine for her not to discuss it because she's a grown woman" has always contrasted for me with, "but she's going to request/expect/demand" assistance in the future".
I hate that we don't know the extent of MIL's situation. Maybe it's not nearly as bad as I think. But we can't discuss it because she's a grown woman and it's none of our business. Except the fact that it becomes our business if and when she can't afford her life in the future seems to negate that. If I knew it was never going to be my problem, then "not my problem" would be a fine approach. But know that, if there is a problem, it becomes mine, it does seem to be my business. She is getting old, and getting tired, and has a 4 hour (yup!) commute time, but she can't afford to retire and as far as we can tell, can't afford to sell her house and move closer, which likely means she's taken equity out of it.
I am so, so grateful that my parents were always very conservative. Our house always had the crappiest cars on the block, and I was raised discussing the importance of great gas mileage. The lack of worry about their finances is such a gift--far more so than the significant inheritance I stand to receive some day.
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I would not feel bad not helping parents when they are making bad choices. I can't even imagine being willing to accept $ from your kids. There are other options and people need to use them or suffer the consequences. Parents are not entitled to stay in their homes if they can't afford it.
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My mil is 87 and insists on living in her own house and bailing out her daughter and her kids for things like speeding tickets or new shoes they cannot afford. Then she says how poor she is. I told DH I only would agree to paying specific bills. He agreed. Phew.
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Thanks everyone for your replies and ideas.
CheapskateWife- I think I would really struggle with letting go of the spending at first but I can see how this would create a healthier relationship than dictating where monies can be spent. I never even thought about that aspect of giving money before.
Cassie- Both sets of parents should have paid for houses by the time they retire in 6-8 years so I am not sure that senior housing would be the best idea if they have decent funds. When the time comes I will keep this in mind and run some numbers. As for parents letting their kids financially support them, I always knew I would help me parents and so would my brother. My parents kindly paid for the majority of college for both of us in return for us helping as needed when they age. My brother will likely provide them the majority of their support needed and I will handle the care, doctor visits, home maintenance, etc. My SO's parents...they just don't believe in investing and have always been low income. My family was raised with the younger generation supporting the older generation at least somewhat financially and I would prefer to help them as long as it doesn't jeopardize my own financial security than send them to assistance programs that are already overburdened in this area.
SS- good idea. If I start that line item soon I should have a good buffer built up for when it is needed.
Felicity- as a fellow engineer, I understand the caution. That's why I am thinking about this! Thanks for the social security link. I will go over it with my parents at least.
V- I also have the fear that whatever they will be given won't be enough even though none of them are super spendy...yet.
o2b- sounds like a rough situation. Hopefully it improves!
WS- how has paying individual bills worked out? Has it created any strain in your relationship?
Cool- yes, it comes down to butt-wiping for me too. One of the biggest issues within my family is that instead of saving heavily for retirement, my parents are paying for their parents, and some of them don't really care about this financial burden it places on them. It seems my family is just sort of built this way.
I feel that, overall, it has been less psychologically stressful for bills to be in our names and come directly us. That way I don't find myself stewing over how she might spend cash that we directly give her. Also, it means the expenses are more predictable. As it is, we cover almost all fixed monthly expenses (mortgage, phone, utilities, insurance for house and car) and she covers food, entertainment, gas, and incidental expenses such as medical bills and car repairs. She isn't particularly wasteful apart from a smoking habit...she'd rather go low on food than skip cigs...and the few things she 'blows' money on are her main pleasures in life, such as gardening. She's very open about her spending and generally responsible about it in exchange for the stability we provide.
Occasionally, we get into some back and forthing that creates some minor psychological stress. Recently, for example, I asked her to take over her paltry monthly Netflix bill, because she was sitting on the disks for months at a time and not watching them. I told her if she wanted to waste 13$/month that way, she could do it on her dime. She also gets occasionally moan-y about lacking internet and cable, and feeling 'cut off' from the world that all the rest of the family takes for granted. However, she doesn't expect us to pay for that kind of stuff...so far she hasn't gotten to the point of prioritizing them in terms of her own spending.
Overall, I much prefer the predictability and control of paying a lot of her bills directly as opposed to how things went for the 10 years previous to this arrangement, during which she was always living right on a ragged edge, subject to bill collectors and sudden crises, and we never knew when/how/how much help the situation would require. The other parent we're occasionally helping out functions more like my mom used to, and that creates much more stress for us, even though the overall $ that we spend on that parent is smaller.
What is your local library system like? Mine has 15,000 dvd titles. No
Netflx needed if money is tight.
Now here's a great example of why you can't always plan based on how people 'should' theoretically act. Because people are friggin weird and don't always do what they 'should'. Your plan sounds logical, but it would actually backfire on me because she would likely NEVER go to the library. She has never used the library during my entire life, no matter how tight money was. I tried to get her interested in joining when we first moved her here, but 6 years later and she's never set foot in any of the city branches. What she'd instead be more likely to do, is to feel deprived of movie watching, and then start impulsively buying dvds that she's interested in but hasn't seen, whenever she happened to enter a store that carries them. Or I could take the time out of my own schedule to set up regular trips to the library and take her along. In that case, she might go ahead and get a library card and rent. BUT, I would have to be sure to schedule the returns to avoid late fees, because she would almost certainly not return the movies on time if left to her own devices. When I was a kid, she used to frequently run late fees in the double and occasionally triple digits on rented vhs tapes, just because she found it too challenging to remember to put the tapes in her purse on the way out the door to run errands, or to drive somewhat out of her way to drop them off. It's really weird, but she's always been that way. Netflix's 'keep as long as you want for a flat rate and no late fees'? That's a godsend for people like her!
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Threads like this make me so thankful to have parents and in-laws who are financially responsible.
Well, I know my in-laws are, and I assume my parents are.
Threads like this make me wonder if my dating criteria should include not only a financially responsible partner but their parents as well. I know mine are. I was always concerned about an ex-gf's parent, long-term, who was buying a house in their mid-50's after foreclosing on their last.
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Threads like this make me so thankful to have parents and in-laws who are financially responsible.
Well, I know my in-laws are, and I assume my parents are.
Threads like this make me wonder if my dating criteria should include not only a financially responsible partner but their parents as well. I know mine are. I was always concerned about an ex-gf's parent, long-term, who was buying a house in their mid-50's after foreclosing on their last.
As someone with parents who are in godawful shape financially, I have to say your potential criteria sounds pretty crappy. I am pretty disgusted with the idea of people being judged by their parents. My parents are bums. Doesn't make me a bum, nor will I support them much because of their poor choices.
Both rent out small apartments. So this idea of "if they can't afford their home, sell it" doesn't apply. They don't own homes, and are already at the bottom of the rental ladder. My mom has had some extenuating circumstances and not made much income, so I have a little sympathy for her situation. If she needed a place to live I would hopefully be able to provide an extra room in my future home for her. My dad has made plenty of money and is just a complete idiot. Any help he'd get from me would be very limited.
Please don't judge people based on their parents.
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It is obvious that some of you will take in parents that you don't want to for various reasons and many of them good ones. Utilize the local services that are available as i have said before and you won't need to live with them or pay for them.
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In short: no
The long answer:
My parents are both dead (died in 2007 and 2011), no long term care needed.
My stepfather is in his late 60s and in poor-ish health (overweight, diabetic, back/knee problems). He has many family members nearby, including my sis and BIL who are helpful. He was also frugal, single till his 40's, and has a pension, SS, medicare, and enough money in the bank to go for a long time. I don't see him needing to go into a facility. That would eat into his savings, but honestly, if 10 years at $35,000 makes him happy, go for it (he has that much).
My in-laws are divorced. FIL lives with girlfriend and her 90-ish mother. He's in his 70s. How long will he live? Will he need care? He used to joke that his kids were his retirement plan. But maybe he shouldn't have cheated on his wife if that's what he really wanted. He has 1/2 of a state pension and SS. Girlfriend worked and has done well for herself.
MIL lives with boyfriend (met after the separation). They split expenses. She has 1/2 of ex's pension, plus SS. He was an engineer, so he's not poor either.
Originally, SIL built a big house with the option of having her parents move in if they got older, but that was pre-divorce. Pretty sure that offer is off the table.
So, in short, if MIL ever needs help, she'll get it. And her mom lived to be into her early 90s. Could totally happen. FIL? Um...Going to go with no on that one, but will be willing to negotiate.
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I think in some circumstances kids may have to help but with so many on this thread saying they help and on other threads I wonder how much is just enabling the parents to keep living the lifestyle they want but can't afford. If people can't afford to live in their homes then they need to realize that and sell to free up some of the $ or maybe doing a reverse mortgage depending on how old they are. It does not seem fair to me to burden your kids with your problems. There are always solutions that don't involve other people giving you $.
And how much of this is cultural? Our very good friends shocked me about 10-15 years ago when they admitted that they sent $300 a month to the wife's parents. They are Chinese (though at the time, living in the US.)
It was expected. My friend's sister also sent money to their parents. At that point, parents were retired and they liked to gamble at the casinos.
Not sure how it's going now. They divorced, mom moved back to China, dad got a girlfriend...haven't seen my friends in over a year, so I need my updates!!
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It probably is. I don't know one person that supports their parents at all and I have never known a person that would take it unless they couldn't pay for their meds etc and lived totally frugally.
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It probably is. I don't know one person that supports their parents at all and I have never known a person that would take it unless they couldn't pay for their meds etc and lived totally frugally.
You must not know my parents. :)
I'm a native born white guy, family has been in the US for generations. It is not just a cultural thing. If you don't know anyone, one guess is you just don't know many poorer people? I know quite a few people who help out their parents.
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I think in some circumstances kids may have to help but with so many on this thread saying they help and on other threads I wonder how much is just enabling the parents to keep living the lifestyle they want but can't afford. If people can't afford to live in their homes then they need to realize that and sell to free up some of the $ or maybe doing a reverse mortgage depending on how old they are. It does not seem fair to me to burden your kids with your problems. There are always solutions that don't involve other people giving you $.
And how much of this is cultural? Our very good friends shocked me about 10-15 years ago when they admitted that they sent $300 a month to the wife's parents. They are Chinese (though at the time, living in the US.)
It was expected. My friend's sister also sent money to their parents. At that point, parents were retired and they liked to gamble at the casinos.
Not sure how it's going now. They divorced, mom moved back to China, dad got a girlfriend...haven't seen my friends in over a year, so I need my updates!!
I have heard that the combo of Chinese cultural (and sometimes legal) expectations of the young to take care of the old and the decades of single-child policy, have combined to create an incredible burden on the younger generation...where you frequently have a single grandchild trying to help support parents plus 1-4 grandparents simultaneously.
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My grandparents were poor and they lived within their SS. As i mentioned earlier when my grandpa died his tiny pension went with him with no survivor options way back then. My grandma's SS was tiny so she did low income housing, etc and yes the kids helped with small amounts for meds, etc and took her out to eat. But she hated taking it but had to because it is not good to choose between meds and food. That is the only time kids need to help parents. I have a couple of good friends that live in senior low income housing and live on their small SS. Even though their kids are doing well they would never consider taking $ from them. It is something called pride.
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My grandparents were poor and they lived within their SS. As i mentioned earlier when my grandpa died his tiny pension went with him with no survivor options way back then. My grandma's SS was tiny so she did low income housing, etc and yes the kids helped with small amounts for meds, etc and took her out to eat. But she hated taking it but had to because it is not good to choose between meds and food. That is the only time kids need to help parents. I have a couple of good friends that live in senior low income housing and live on their small SS. Even though their kids are doing well they would never consider taking $ from them. It is something called pride.
Yeah I'm not trying to argue it's a good thing. Just saying it happens, and it's not as rare as you think.
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It probably is. I don't know one person that supports their parents at all and I have never known a person that would take it unless they couldn't pay for their meds etc and lived totally frugally.
You must not know my parents. :)
I'm a native born white guy, family has been in the US for generations. It is not just a cultural thing. If you don't know anyone, one guess is you just don't know many poorer people? I know quite a few people who help out their parents.
This is an interesting phenomenon, and I wonder if it will get increasing attention as family sizes shrink and as marriage becomes less common (both of which are happening) . A quick google pulled up a late 2012 Pew poll that was designed to examine the 'sandwich generation' of young Boomers and current Gen Xers.
Quote: "...roughly half (48%) of adults ages 40 to 59 have provided some financial support to at least one grown child in the past year, with 27% providing the primary support. These shares are up significantly from 2005. By contrast, about one-in-five middle-aged adults (21%) have provided financial support to a parent age 65 or older in the past year, basically unchanged from 2005."
This indicates that about a fifth of the population does provide support to parents in some capacity, though of course it is unlikely that most of those provide the kind of ongoing support under discussion in this thread. I would have guessed that this percent might have increased following the 2007/08 crisis, but this indicates it has not.
Incidentally, I do personally know a fair number of people apart from DH and me who support parents financially in some capacity, but I know TONS [edit to note: "tons is not meant to be a technical term LOL"] of people who support adult children in some kind of intermittent/ongoing fashion. So in that sense, the poll aligns with my personal experience.
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I am surprised that the number is that high for kids supporting parents in some way. Adult kids is more understandable, helping them get launched, an illness, disability, etc but you have to be careful to not get carried away with that either.
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It probably is. I don't know one person that supports their parents at all and I have never known a person that would take it unless they couldn't pay for their meds etc and lived totally frugally.
You must not know my parents. :)
I'm a native born white guy, family has been in the US for generations. It is not just a cultural thing. If you don't know anyone, one guess is you just don't know many poorer people? I know quite a few people who help out their parents.
My whole family was pretty poor growing up.
But I think right now at my age, our parents benefitted from the "boom years" really when middle class jobs were plentiful. Their houses were cheap, some of them had pensions. They grew up poor so learned to live cheap.
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But there is such a strong sentiment that keeping old folks in their homes is important..
And I see the old folks here in my neighborhood of 2,000 - 4,000 sq ft Victorian homes that need far more upkeep than can be done on modest incomes, and think "bullshit." But its hard to stem the tide of the "stay in their own homes" mindset.
I think when most people think about keeping the elderly "in their homes" they mean in a home generally and NOT in a nursing home setting. At least I think that way. If you get someone to downsize into a size that fits better it's still "theirs." Or even an apartment can be "theirs."
I think the worst setting (and the ones people are trying to avoid when they talk about keeping the elderly "in their own home") are the understaffed facilities that charge a lot and provide basic survival needs but with little human caring. I've volunteered at a few places. In the industry in general staff at places like this are often overworked and burn out quickly.
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It probably is. I don't know one person that supports their parents at all and I have never known a person that would take it unless they couldn't pay for their meds etc and lived totally frugally.
You must not know my parents. :)
I'm a native born white guy, family has been in the US for generations. It is not just a cultural thing. If you don't know anyone, one guess is you just don't know many poorer people? I know quite a few people who help out their parents.
My whole family was pretty poor growing up.
But I think right now at my age, our parents benefitted from the "boom years" really when middle class jobs were plentiful. Their houses were cheap, some of them had pensions. They grew up poor so learned to live cheap.
Sure, some people did. And then there's plenty like mine that spent all of their income their entire life. Both are in their 60's and don't have a dollar in savings or assets to their name. It took a sizeable inheritance to even get my dad back to zero, he was a couple hundred thousand dollars in debt. They will each be living off their small social security check.
Really all it takes is a look at the net worth percentiles, do a quick Google search. There is a very sizeable minority of the US elderly population with absolutely nothing saved at all. Many of these people were middle class and are used to living off $40-50k per year or more. Pretty tough to get used to those SS checks as the only income.
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Really all it takes is a look at the net worth percentiles, do a quick Google search. There is a very sizeable minority of the US elderly population with absolutely nothing saved at all. Many of these people were middle class and are used to living off $40-50k per year or more. Pretty tough to get used to those SS checks as the only income.
Here's a terrifying and pertinent data point, just released a couple weeks ago by the Economic Policy Institute.
In 2013 the total median retirement (INCLUDING 401ks, IRAs, and Keogh plans) savings of families/households aged 50-55 were 8,000$.
And for those ages 56-61, approaching retirement? 17,000$ That is just unreal.
The paper also notes that the highest savings rates and accumulations occurred just prior to the financial crisis, but even then the medians for those age groups were a mere ~26K and 36K, respectively.
Now, given these numbers, I suspect the phenomenon of supporting aging parents might increase during the next few decades.
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I think the US culture of generations living separate from one another is vastly different than in many other countries. If you think about it from an efficiency perspective it absolutely makes sense for families to stay together. If Grandma and Grandpa live in the same house as Mom and Dad it means extra income (if the grandparents are working), it means more eyes to watch children, additional adults to teach children desired values, the elderly can more easily get help, etc. Obviously the way we build houses in the US is not conducive to this lifestyle but it makes sense. If there's one trait the US exudes, it's independence. That's not a bad thing because I think it's part of what made our country great, but at the family level I think our culture of independence is actually foolish.
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I think the US culture of generations living separate from one another is vastly different than in many other countries. If you think about it from an efficiency perspective it absolutely makes sense for families to stay together. If Grandma and Grandpa live in the same house as Mom and Dad it means extra income (if the grandparents are working), it means more eyes to watch children, additional adults to teach children desired values, the elderly can more easily get help, etc. Obviously the way we build houses in the US is not conducive to this lifestyle but it makes sense. If there's one trait the US exudes, it's independence. That's not a bad thing because I think it's part of what made our country great, but at the family level I think our culture of independence is actually foolish.
I agree here. Generations learn a lot of each other and I think it's detrimental long-term to always be so segmented with your peers.
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I think the US culture of generations living separate from one another is vastly different than in many other countries. If you think about it from an efficiency perspective it absolutely makes sense for families to stay together. If Grandma and Grandpa live in the same house as Mom and Dad it means extra income (if the grandparents are working), it means more eyes to watch children, additional adults to teach children desired values, the elderly can more easily get help, etc. Obviously the way we build houses in the US is not conducive to this lifestyle but it makes sense. If there's one trait the US exudes, it's independence. That's not a bad thing because I think it's part of what made our country great, but at the family level I think our culture of independence is actually foolish.
It is very different. My girlfriend is from an Asian family who came to America about a decade before she was born. She was raised by her parents and grandparents, and currently her sister is looking into buying a house with her parents. Their family recently somewhat fractured due to some issues (who wouldn't have issues after living in the same house for 20+ years?). There are lots of positives to a shared household, but it certainly comes with its own challenges, especially if everyone isn't totally on board and clear on who is really "in charge."
She always assumed she'd be supporting her parents as they get older, only recently has she realized that may not be the best plan. The problem with the whole "support your parents' retirement" dynamic is the same one that you always run into where the maker and spender of the money are not the same. There is very little incentive to cut costs! In addition, your goals may not be aligned. Her parents spend $ on new cars, big houses, waste all sorts of stuff, and "retired" early (not FI) while she drives an old car, budgets aggressively, and works hard (in hopes of FIRE). There's nothing necessarily wrong with their lifestyle, but it makes no sense for her money to subsidize their spending habits. They'll almost certainly have difficulties in retirement, and she'll feel guilty and want to help, but hopefully pointing these things out early will help reel in that emotion a bit.
The main thing that got her somewhat on board was asking if she expected our kids someday to pay for us. She said she'd never wish that sort of burden on them. The problem is if we pay for her parents' habits and expenses, our goals will be set waaay back and we may not have a choice in the matter. There's always a "sandwich" generation that gets a raw deal when you make this transition. Her parents supported their parents, but now they also have to support themselves so our generation can break free. I suspect someday we'll help them some to ease the transition, but it certainly won't be a blank check and will come with strings attached.
The other thing I noticed is that standing up to the authority figures is very rare, even if they're not making any of the money they get to choose how to spend it (and are not often making the best financial decisions, which is why they don't have their own money...). It's very hard for an 80 year old man from that culture to get told he is wrong about wanting to buy a house instead of rent, and even today that's a discussion the aunts and uncles are afraid to have with him. They've come very close to buying a house because he thinks renting is stupid, even though he's paying for a very small portion of it monthly. Luckily another opportunity presented itself so that bullet is currently dodged.
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It's not that I haven't given my mother money (and will continue to give small amounts in the future) but I do not intend on supporting my mother, cold-hearted as that is. My own children will come first, plus the fact is, her situation has to do with her bad choices and could have been entirely avoided, but she refuses to listen. Plus both parents inherited money from their respective sides of the family that could have also gone towards retirement but instead is long spent. And both times my mother retired she cashed out her retirement money versus getting a monthly check. I will do things instrumentally to help my Mom (like make phone calls, organize things for her) but not financially. Both I don't have the money for it, and do not feel it is my responsibility.
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There is a difference between helping parents and giving them a check. When my Dad had a major stroke we bought the house next door. For 14 years I helped with him and she watched my kids so I could finish college. She broke her ankle and I cooked all their meals, errands, cleaning, etc. It was a win-win for all of us. However, we did not live in the same house or exchange $. I enjoy my privacy and would not want to live with my parents or any of my kids. Yes my adult kids have moved in when hard times hit but not permanently. YOu can help without enabling or jeopardizing your financial future. Ultimately independence if at all possible is a good thing for most people.
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There's definitely a cultural aspect to it, but for me, it's more about the reasons and choices that led to the situation. If a parent had a severe, disabling accident that led to a need for assistance, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. If they lived simply (but within reason, so I'm not talking 100% bare bones existence) with that assistance, my eyelashes would continue not to flutter. But when it is conspicuous spending that led to the need for the money, then I have a problem. Why should I give money to someone who has driven more expensive cars and lived in nicer homes and sat on a more expensive sofa than I ever have or will? And especially if they want to do those things while still requesting money from me? My money is spent in ways that align with my values, and that extends to if/when it is spent outside my immediate family. I won't supplement someone else's volcano of wastefulness. If they want that life, they can pay for it. If they need food (and not because they spent all their grocery money on lottery tickets or QVC), I am happy to help. If they need lottery tickets and QVC crap, they are on their own.
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There's definitely a cultural aspect to it, but for me, it's more about the reasons and choices that led to the situation. If a parent had a severe, disabling accident that led to a need for assistance, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. If they lived simply (but within reason, so I'm not talking 100% bare bones existence) with that assistance, my eyelashes would continue not to flutter. But when it is conspicuous spending that led to the need for the money, then I have a problem. Why should I give money to someone who has driven more expensive cars and lived in nicer homes and sat on a more expensive sofa than I ever have or will? And especially if they want to do those things while still requesting money from me? My money is spent in ways that align with my values, and that extends to if/when it is spent outside my immediate family. I won't supplement someone else's volcano of wastefulness. If they want that life, they can pay for it. If they need food (and not because they spent all their grocery money on lottery tickets or QVC), I am happy to help. If they need lottery tickets and QVC crap, they are on their own.
+1
I doubt you'd find many people on here who would disagree with you.
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I have seen a number of these threads on this forum and many people do continue to support or subsidize parents that continue to make bad choices and I don't get it.
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My dad's retirement is the 800 pound gorilla on my FIRE back. I love him and he worked hard all his life raising two kids so I don't begrudge budgeting parental support in my FIRE plans. The sticking point is his refusal to do things that will HELP his retirement and the fact that he, even though impoverished, supports my sponge of a brother.
He has some savings, but certainly not enough for a 20-30 year retirement. He plans to retire next year whereupon his SSA benefits will be LESS than his current rent. As a low-income senior, he totally qualifies for low-income senior housing....but has refused to apply for it. It infuriates me and nothing I say can budge him on this subject. How do you plan on paying a rent total that supersedes your SSA income? I'm talking math and he's reverts to emotional attacks such as, "Oh, you're just worried you have to support me?" Shit like that...But yeah Dad, I could support you to the tune of an extra $500-1,000 a month for years on end or you can get a decent senior apartment that you're totally qualified for.
I think the refusal to apply for housing is dread of change and the fact my sponge brother would have to find his own housing as he couldn't follow my dad into the senior apartment.
This hangs over me a like a dark cloud as his retirement is next year and every time I try to reason with him, he stops the conversation. I dread it because I fear it will devolve into two awful scenarios: 1) I support my dad by making up the difference between his SSA and rent plus additional for living expenses. And I resent it forever especially as I know a large part of that also supports my sponge brother. Or 2) I refuse to help.
I know the overwhelming advice will be for #2...but emotionally, I can't cut off my dad.
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My dad's retirement is the 800 pound gorilla on my FIRE back. I love him and he worked hard all his life raising two kids so I don't begrudge budgeting parental support in my FIRE plans. The sticking point is his refusal to do things that will HELP his retirement and the fact that he, even though impoverished, supports my sponge of a brother.
He has some savings, but certainly not enough for a 20-30 year retirement. He plans to retire next year whereupon his SSA benefits will be LESS than his current rent. As a low-income senior, he totally qualifies for low-income senior housing....but has refused to apply for it. It infuriates me and nothing I say can budge him on this subject. How do you plan on paying a rent total that supersedes your SSA income? I'm talking math and he's reverts to emotional attacks such as, "Oh, you're just worried you have to support me?" Shit like that...But yeah Dad, I could support you to the tune of an extra $500-1,000 a month for years on end or you can get a decent senior apartment that you're totally qualified for.
I think the refusal to apply for housing is dread of change and the fact my sponge brother would have to find his own housing as he couldn't follow my dad into the senior apartment.
This hangs over me a like a dark cloud as his retirement is next year and every time I try to reason with him, he stops the conversation. I dread it because I fear it will devolve into two awful scenarios: 1) I support my dad by making up the difference between his SSA and rent plus additional for living expenses. And I resent it forever especially as I know a large part of that also supports my sponge brother. Or 2) I refuse to help.
I know the overwhelming advice will be for #2...but emotionally, I can't cut off my dad.
Ah sweetie, thats so tough!
I thnk you will support your father in a small way--when he has taken advantage of all of the senior support services offered in your area. But not a penny before he does that.
Do you give him money now?
Its best to have the money talk with him about what yu will nt so before he comes to months behnd in rent.
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My dad's retirement is the 800 pound gorilla on my FIRE back. I love him and he worked hard all his life raising two kids so I don't begrudge budgeting parental support in my FIRE plans. The sticking point is his refusal to do things that will HELP his retirement and the fact that he, even though impoverished, supports my sponge of a brother.
He has some savings, but certainly not enough for a 20-30 year retirement. He plans to retire next year whereupon his SSA benefits will be LESS than his current rent. As a low-income senior, he totally qualifies for low-income senior housing....but has refused to apply for it. It infuriates me and nothing I say can budge him on this subject. How do you plan on paying a rent total that supersedes your SSA income? I'm talking math and he's reverts to emotional attacks such as, "Oh, you're just worried you have to support me?" Shit like that...But yeah Dad, I could support you to the tune of an extra $500-1,000 a month for years on end or you can get a decent senior apartment that you're totally qualified for.
I think the refusal to apply for housing is dread of change and the fact my sponge brother would have to find his own housing as he couldn't follow my dad into the senior apartment.
This hangs over me a like a dark cloud as his retirement is next year and every time I try to reason with him, he stops the conversation. I dread it because I fear it will devolve into two awful scenarios: 1) I support my dad by making up the difference between his SSA and rent plus additional for living expenses. And I resent it forever especially as I know a large part of that also supports my sponge brother. Or 2) I refuse to help.
I know the overwhelming advice will be for #2...but emotionally, I can't cut off my dad.
Ah sweetie, thats so tough!
I thnk you will support your father in a small way--when he has taken advantage of all of the senior support services offered in your area. But not a penny before he does that.
Do you give him money now?
Its best to have the money talk with him about what yu will nt so before he comes to months behnd in rent.
I agree with this strategy. There's plenty of middle ground between "support my sponge brother" and "never help my dad no matter what". Don't help him any more than he's willing to help himself, currently that's not much.
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I think the US culture of generations living separate from one another is vastly different than in many other countries. If you think about it from an efficiency perspective it absolutely makes sense for families to stay together. If Grandma and Grandpa live in the same house as Mom and Dad it means extra income (if the grandparents are working), it means more eyes to watch children, additional adults to teach children desired values, the elderly can more easily get help, etc. Obviously the way we build houses in the US is not conducive to this lifestyle but it makes sense. If there's one trait the US exudes, it's independence. That's not a bad thing because I think it's part of what made our country great, but at the family level I think our culture of independence is actually foolish.
I agree here. Generations learn a lot of each other and I think it's detrimental long-term to always be so segmented with your peers.
Hmm. My MIL is in poor shape, financially....and refuses to be honest about it with us, so we aren't really sure what we are dealing with. FIL passed late last year and they were/are two of the most entitled people I've ever met. Luxury cars, trips, you name it....but without the income to support. Not only this, but they've both battled depression and anxiety and are two of the most negative people I've ever met. We love my MIL, and she is a good grandmother to our kids.....but I can't imagine having to bring her in to our house and have that kind of black cloud around us 24/7. NOT the influence I want for my children at ALL. So, I'm going to have to disagree about multi-generational living being beneficial for everyone, because it's just not the case here. DH and I are very nervous about MIL's future.
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Ah sweetie, thats so tough!
I thnk you will support your father in a small way--when he has taken advantage of all of the senior support services offered in your area. But not a penny before he does that.
Do you give him money now?
Its best to have the money talk with him about what yu will nt so before he comes to months behnd in rent.
I help on a request basis--for health costs, travel to see family etc. I did help regularly when he was last unemployed.
Have tried to talk to him but they all devolve into accusations that I don't want to help him, that I have abandoned him already (by moving away) and now I don't want to deal with him when it comes to retirement. I'm convinced in his mind my financial support shows that I have not abandoned him. Whereas my mindset is I love you, dad but why forego what you are qualified for? I can understand if there were no government assistance available to him--then I can accept that my support really is the only option.
There is a language barrier component but ultimately it's down mentality and emotional baggage. And as I mentioned, if my dad moves into a senior apartment, my brother no longer has free housing.
I'm thinking about asking my dad's brother to talk some sense into him. This uncle is financially savvy and has native language fluency. I'm concerned it will anger (and embarrass--as saving face is a big deal in our culture) my dad if I take this to the rest of the family though. And it will only harden his resistance to my recommendation. My uncle knows about this issue already as we have discussed it but confronting my dad about it may be a step too far.
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DH's parents saved up a healthy retirement and moved to Mexico a couple decades ago so they could retire early and live comfortably. DH found out a couple years ago - about a year before his dad passed - that the state-side relative responsible for their retirement accounts had completely drained their savings.
Did they call the cops on the guy? I hope so.
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Ah sweetie, thats so tough!
I thnk you will support your father in a small way--when he has taken advantage of all of the senior support services offered in your area. But not a penny before he does that.
Do you give him money now?
Its best to have the money talk with him about what yu will nt so before he comes to months behnd in rent.
I help on a request basis--for health costs, travel to see family etc. I did help regularly when he was last unemployed.
Have tried to talk to him but they all devolve into accusations that I don't want to help him, that I have abandoned him already (by moving away) and now I don't want to deal with him when it comes to retirement. I'm convinced in his mind my financial support shows that I have not abandoned him. Whereas my mindset is I love you, dad but why forego what you are qualified for? I can understand if there were no government assistance available to him--then I can accept that my support really is the only option.
There is a language barrier component but ultimately it's down mentality and emotional baggage. And as I mentioned, if my dad moves into a senior apartment, my brother no longer has free housing.
I'm thinking about asking my dad's brother to talk some sense into him. This uncle is financially savvy and has native language fluency. I'm concerned it will anger (and embarrass--as saving face is a big deal in our culture) my dad if I take this to the rest of the family though. And it will only harden his resistance to my recommendation. My uncle knows about this issue already as we have discussed it but confronting my dad about it may be a step too far.
Your idea about bringing in your dad's brother mght be good, hard to know.
But this is really about you drawng boundaries, not about changing the mind of your father.
Your father will do what hes going to do. I Can tell that his silly rantings avout you abandonng him are upsetting to you. So step back and stay put of his business, but find a way to ONE time, lovingly, tell him where you draw the line in support.
And if he screams at you about you being afraid of him as a burdon, well yes, true. You do have that fear and it is rational.
You have to step back and let him make his mistakes. If he has develops a huge well of debt, you are under no obligation to pay it. You dont own it.
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Ah sweetie, thats so tough!
I thnk you will support your father in a small way--when he has taken advantage of all of the senior support services offered in your area. But not a penny before he does that.
Do you give him money now?
Its best to have the money talk with him about what yu will nt so before he comes to months behnd in rent.
I help on a request basis--for health costs, travel to see family etc. I did help regularly when he was last unemployed.
Have tried to talk to him but they all devolve into accusations that I don't want to help him, that I have abandoned him already (by moving away) and now I don't want to deal with him when it comes to retirement. I'm convinced in his mind my financial support shows that I have not abandoned him. Whereas my mindset is I love you, dad but why forego what you are qualified for? I can understand if there were no government assistance available to him--then I can accept that my support really is the only option.
There is a language barrier component but ultimately it's down mentality and emotional baggage. And as I mentioned, if my dad moves into a senior apartment, my brother no longer has free housing.
I'm thinking about asking my dad's brother to talk some sense into him. This uncle is financially savvy and has native language fluency. I'm concerned it will anger (and embarrass--as saving face is a big deal in our culture) my dad if I take this to the rest of the family though. And it will only harden his resistance to my recommendation. My uncle knows about this issue already as we have discussed it but confronting my dad about it may be a step too far.
Your idea about bringing in your dad's brother mght be good, hard to know.
But this is really about you drawng boundaries, not about changing the mind of your father.
Your father will do what hes going to do. I Can tell that his silly rantings avout you abandonng him are upsetting to you. So step back and stay put of his business, but find a way to ONE time, lovingly, tell him where you draw the line in support.
And if he screams at you about you being afraid of him as a burdon, well yes, true. You do have that fear and it is rational.
You have to step back and let him make his mistakes. If he has develops a huge well of debt, you are under no obligation to pay it. You dont own it.
+1
It's clear he doesn't want to talk about it, so don't. If he brings it up, then just be clear that you aren't going to support your brother.
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IL: has given you some great advice. I would be there emotionally for him if he wants it but not $ wise at all since he is not using the programs that are available. He will need to suffer the natural consequences of his actions. I know this will be tough but it is the right thing to do.
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Ah sweetie, thats so tough!
I thnk you will support your father in a small way--when he has taken advantage of all of the senior support services offered in your area. But not a penny before he does that.
Do you give him money now?
Its best to have the money talk with him about what yu will nt so before he comes to months behnd in rent.
I help on a request basis--for health costs, travel to see family etc. I did help regularly when he was last unemployed.
Have tried to talk to him but they all devolve into accusations that I don't want to help him, that I have abandoned him already (by moving away) and now I don't want to deal with him when it comes to retirement. I'm convinced in his mind my financial support shows that I have not abandoned him. Whereas my mindset is I love you, dad but why forego what you are qualified for? I can understand if there were no government assistance available to him--then I can accept that my support really is the only option.
There is a language barrier component but ultimately it's down mentality and emotional baggage. And as I mentioned, if my dad moves into a senior apartment, my brother no longer has free housing.
I'm thinking about asking my dad's brother to talk some sense into him. This uncle is financially savvy and has native language fluency. I'm concerned it will anger (and embarrass--as saving face is a big deal in our culture) my dad if I take this to the rest of the family though. And it will only harden his resistance to my recommendation. My uncle knows about this issue already as we have discussed it but confronting my dad about it may be a step too far.
Could an effective argument be (say, from your uncle), "you paid taxes all those years, now you should take advantage of all the services you're eligible for so you get your money's worth!" Saves face because his brother is positioning that approach as smart, not "only for poor people".
Some Cassie wisdom from a related thread: (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what-can-i-do-about-my-financially-dependent-father/msg1021594/#msg1021594) no one takes advantage of you without your permission. Your dad might resort to emotional attacks but you hold the purse strings, so you ultimately decide when to pay up. If he's spending your money to support your sponge brother and to forego income-geared seniors' benefits that doesn't happen without your consent (even if grudging.) Just tell him you're ready to discuss financial support when he's ready to help himself by using the program he's qualified for (or when your brother is paying his fair share.) Leave the subject alone until that constructive development takes place.
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Thanks to all for your advice. There's the head and then there's the heart...Not supporting my dad would mean a significant break with my family and it's not something I want at this point. There have definitely been times when I wanted to put my hands up and say, "I'm done!" with my dad and brother.
I'm not ready to roll over so I'm going to find ways to get my dad and I on the same page...however frustrating that may be. Your suggestions certainly help and it's good for me to remember to at least attempt to put my foot down somewhat.
Since the waiting lists for senior housing can be years long in southern California, I'd like to see if I can submit applications on my dad's behalf. I'm sure all the paperwork is daunting so that's probably a disincentive.
If anyone knows of a good centralized source for senior housing, I'd love to hear it. Any tips too, of course. I've contacted individual buidings on ad hoc basis but not much comes of it since there isn't much interest to follow up by a certain person...But perhaps I just take the initiative and apply for him.
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That won't be enough separation-ugh! I say senior housing is the answer.
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Commenting so I can read whole thread later..
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That won't be enough separation-ugh! I say senior housing is the answer.
Maybe they have a very large acreage? :)
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Recently had, and dropped this conversation quickly with MIL. Out of the blue she announced to my wife that she's retiring next year, age 66, and that she "has to, can't do it any longer!". She has what seems like a pretty lazy desk/admin job at the local school, 5 min commute and short hours. Seems perfect to keep her busy and also up her SS by 8%/year she can delay! But she's always pretty negative and "hate" the other ladies in her office, although they seem ok enough to me.. Her health is not great, she doesn't go to the doctor and will probably sit home watching TV all the time in retirement. So, worry about rapid physical and metal deterioration? Just cross fingers.
She should have a low, but ok (I think?) SS, and a pension from the school (Pennsylvania, if anyone knows anything..). I've tried to find out how much she might get put hard with only the vaguest idea of how much she makes ($25k? $35k?). Her house is big, old, dilapidated and worth little, but over $7k/year in taxes. Assume any suggestion of moving will be met will resistance. She spends little so might be ok with what she gets.
Basically our dilemma is: do we let her carry on and deal with her own stuff (money wise and no physical or social activity), and possibly end up having to bail her out of a huge mess years from now? Or do we suck it up and try to step in, advice and keep it from spiraling out of control, knowing we'd be the ones that have to help anyway so try to minimize the damage? My to BILs are unlikely to help much if any.
Guess I should be thankfull my parents live under a socialist regime with no personal responsibility required and will have a state pension. They'll have to cut their considerable spending in half, but they should have enough at least.
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YOu can try to talk to her about things but if it is met with resistance than I would let her carry on. If/when she needs help you find her programs that can help. My MIL at one point announced that when we were buying a house that it should have space for her and I said no. After raising kids and letting adult kids come back to live so they could finish college I was looking forward to time alone. She said it was working well for one of her friends and I said well that is not me. I was firm every time she mentioned it and she got the hint.
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YOu can try to talk to her about things but if it is met with resistance than I would let her carry on. If/when she needs help you find her programs that can help. My MIL at one point announced that when we were buying a house that it should have space for her and I said no. After raising kids and letting adult kids come back to live so they could finish college I was looking forward to time alone. She said it was working well for one of her friends and I said well that is not me. I was firm every time she mentioned it and she got the hint.
Cassie, I just wanted to say that I've really admired your posts in the threads about paying for aging parents. Lots of common sense + life experience + work experience in this field. Good for you for standing your ground with MIL.
I doubt very much that I will need to give my parents any financial support. They are 79 now and doing fine financially. They can afford to go to Hawaii and on a cruise every year. I am really grateful that I don't have this problem.
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I'm viewing this from the other side, really making an effort to ensure my son and his wife will never have to worry about supporting me.
Because I know damn well they will be supporting her mother. Her father is very frugal and responsible, I'm sure he has prepared adequately for himself and his current wife. But her mother has never been very good at supporting herself, and has tried multiple marriages/divorces in an effort to find the white knight who will rescue her. She is only 50 so they won't feel compelled to take her in for awhile, but I feel it's only a matter of time before she expects to be fully supported by them.
The best I can do is ensure they won't have to worry about me too.
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Pachnik: thanks so much for the kind words. We helped people with doing things for them instead of $. WE have packed and moved people, found resources, driven to appointments, ran errands, you name it and we have done it and not just for family but for friends with illnesses, disabilities, etc. I just think there is a difference between enabling and assisting. I would hate to see younger people risk their financial future because of needing to support parents that have been irresponsible when so many resources are available. I spent more then one of my vacations flying across the country to pack and move my Mom when she was older. She was responsible with $ but she lived so long that money got tight and she couldn't do this herself and couldn't afford to hire it done. It was fun because we got to spend time together and I got to help her. My Mom was so responsible that she made sure that she had enough $ for the funeral she wanted and all her burial costs, etc. Us 3 kids would have paid for it but she was proud.
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Just a general comment from the other side of the fence. Many of you are talking about parents in their 50s/60s/early 70s. We are not old and mentally feeble at that age. If someone is retiring and seems to be OK, then let them manage their finances. Of course this does not include situations where parents have already indicated they expect help/support/whatever, of course you need to plan ahead in those circumstances. But people are generally healthy these days, a lot of you are borrowing trouble/crossing the bridge before you reach it/whatever metaphor you prefer.
When the time comes that i can't manage on my own, I will value DD's time and emotional support a lot more than I will need or expect any money from her. For most adult children, those are the circumstances you need to be planning for, how will you be able to find the time and energy to do what needs doing? Of course FIRE helps there, unless you are a huge distance away.
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When the time comes that i can't manage on my own, I will value DD's time and emotional support a lot more than I will need or expect any money from her. For most adult children, those are the circumstances you need to be planning for, how will you be able to find the time and energy to do what needs doing? Of course FIRE helps there, unless you are a huge distance away.
+1. This is one of the reasons I am seeking FI. They won't need my money but I want to be able to help them in other ways such as those outlined above by Cassie.
Plus, I live across the yard from my parents. :0
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We are 61 and are healthy but you never know. We had some good friends of ours where he got terminal cancer and she got Alzheimer's so we helped care for them to help them stay in their home until it was no longer possible. They were only ages 64 & 66 and we had to place both of them in a home in Oct. My Dad needed care by age 59. However, if they can take care of themselves let them. The time will come soon enough when help will be needed.
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Just a general comment from the other side of the fence. Many of you are talking about parents in their 50s/60s/early 70s. We are not old and mentally feeble at that age. If someone is retiring and seems to be OK, then let them manage their finances. Of course this does not include situations where parents have already indicated they expect help/support/whatever, of course you need to plan ahead in those circumstances. But people are generally healthy these days, a lot of you are borrowing trouble/crossing the bridge before you reach it/whatever metaphor you prefer.
You are fortunate that you are not in any difficulty. Rest assured I doubt most of us are as patronizing toward our parents as it might be inadvertently coming across. I don't think any of us were planning on helping as early as some of us ended up doing. My father was spiraling into disaster by by his early 60s, and essentially nonfunctional by 70; and my mother was so clinically depressed and mentally dysfunctional by her 60s that she had dug a gigantic hole. Had someone asked me 20 years earlier at what point I would have anticipated having to actively step in to help my parents, I would have said for Dad: not until very old/never; and for Mom, not until mid-70s barring health crisis. No way I would have assumed help would be required at the relatively young ages they ended up needing it. It sucks. I hope you can stay independent as long as possible. I really hope I can, as well.
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Between my husband and I, we have two living parents. Neither is wealthy, but both have paid-off houses, Social Security and pensions -- they should be okay in terms of financial needs.
What we're planning to provide them with is TIME. Driving them here and there, helping with cleaning the house, etc.
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I haven't read the entire thread, and fortunately my parents are in decent shape. But I have a sneaky tactic for the mustachians with spendy parents: pretend to be needy. If you know they are giving huge infusions to a sibling, ask for a comparable amount. Then, save that money and give it back to them in 20 years, when they finally hit rock bottom with giving.
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I haven't read the entire thread, and fortunately my parents are in decent shape. But I have a sneaky tactic for the mustachians with spendy parents: pretend to be needy. If you know they are giving huge infusions to a sibling, ask for a comparable amount. Then, save that money and give it back to them in 20 years, when they finally hit rock bottom with giving.
Hahahaha. That's brilliant.
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I haven't read the entire thread, and fortunately my parents are in decent shape. But I have a sneaky tactic for the mustachians with spendy parents: pretend to be needy. If you know they are giving huge infusions to a sibling, ask for a comparable amount. Then, save that money and give it back to them in 20 years, when they finally hit rock bottom with giving.
Hahahaha. That's brilliant.
Agreed, brilliant and so loving! With mustachian training you can grow that money beyond anything they could imagine possible.