Financial infidelity ... SOS

[BabyShark]

This doesn't make it any better, I know, but I wonder if these are old debts from the initial reveal that, rather than new ones?

[Laura33]

I don't think you have ANY IDEA how expensive it is to be a woman in America today, with even a FRACTION of a desire to dress well, and to have stylish clothes or hair or home.

Guys have it easy: Docker khakis, a button-down shirt, and loafers. If you have to wear a suit occasionally, you can get by with the one you bought a decade ago for a funeral.

Women: hemlines change; color palettes change; for pants: pleated vs. non-pleated vs. cuffed vs. wide leg vs. narrowed at the ankle.

Cosmetics can be inexpensive, but most women I know use some. They expire and go bad. I have one of the most low-frill beauty and cosmetics routine I know, and I spend ~ $25 per month on personal products such as facial wash, scrub, razor blades, soap, shampoo, conditioner, detangler, root volumizer. Personal care items like tampons/pads/liners? $15 per month. For cosmetics, probably $200 per year. A single lipstick or eyeliner can be $20. The more expensive stuff holds its color better, doesn't clump when applied, and glides on more smoothly.

Hair: I spend $225 on a haircut, color and highlight every two months. Hair clips and bands break and get lost, so I replenish these at Xmas as stocking stuffers.

You have a daughter? Double this, if she's older than 12.

Shoes: I have a basic pair of black shoes I wear for work. $200 a pair, every two years.

I want to add on to this to address the obvious response:  no, your wife does not have to do any of the above.  There are many women who don't buy or do all those extras. 

But there are also many women who feel they need to do many of those things, for social acceptance or business reasons.  And there are many women who actually want to do some or all of the above, or even more -- who enjoy dressing in nice clothes and having neat and tidy nails and hair and stuff.*  And there is nothing fundamentally wrong with that.**  So if you married one of those women, you need to treat her joy in those things as just as valid as your own goals and desires, and then work with her to make a budget that respects the things she values. 


*In case there is any doubt:  that is totally not me.  Ugh.  But I know people who do enjoy that.  And the fact that I don't does not make them wrong. 

**I mean, feminism, patriarchy, societal expectations, commercial culture, etc., sure, but that's another post (or thousand). 

[bacchi]

I don't think you have ANY IDEA how expensive it is to be a woman in America today, with even a FRACTION of a desire to dress well, and to have stylish clothes or hair or home.

Guys have it easy: Docker khakis, a button-down shirt, and loafers. If you have to wear a suit occasionally, you can get by with the one you bought a decade ago for a funeral.

Women: hemlines change; color palettes change; for pants: pleated vs. non-pleated vs. cuffed vs. wide leg vs. narrowed at the ankle.

Cosmetics can be inexpensive, but most women I know use some. They expire and go bad. I have one of the most low-frill beauty and cosmetics routine I know, and I spend ~ $25 per month on personal products such as facial wash, scrub, razor blades, soap, shampoo, conditioner, detangler, root volumizer. Personal care items like tampons/pads/liners? $15 per month. For cosmetics, probably $200 per year. A single lipstick or eyeliner can be $20. The more expensive stuff holds its color better, doesn't clump when applied, and glides on more smoothly.

Hair: I spend $225 on a haircut, color and highlight every two months. Hair clips and bands break and get lost, so I replenish these at Xmas as stocking stuffers.

You have a daughter? Double this, if she's older than 12.

Shoes: I have a basic pair of black shoes I wear for work. $200 a pair, every two years.

I want to add on to this to address the obvious response:  no, your wife does not have to do any of the above.  There are many women who don't buy or do all those extras. 

But there are also many women who feel they need to do many of those things, for social acceptance or business reasons.  And there are many women who actually want to do some or all of the above, or even more -- who enjoy dressing in nice clothes and having neat and tidy nails and hair and stuff.*  And there is nothing fundamentally wrong with that.**  So if you married one of those women, you need to treat her joy in those things as just as valid as your own goals and desires, and then work with her to make a budget that respects the things she values. 


*In case there is any doubt:  that is totally not me.  Ugh.  But I know people who do enjoy that.  And the fact that I don't does not make them wrong. 

**I mean, feminism, patriarchy, societal expectations, commercial culture, etc., sure, but that's another post (or thousand).

Depending on location, some thrift shops sell new or barely used name-brand, fashionable, clothes and shoes and purses. It doesn't have to be expensive.

[iluvzbeach]

I’m a bit shocked at a few of the respondents who make it sound as if the OP has done something wrong. Even if he has been super-controlling with the money (not saying he has been), it’s his wife’s job to be an adult and speak up for herself and say what she needs. It is not her job to act like a child and hide expenditures by having a credit card she hasn’t disclosed and running up a hefty balance. She is the one who has lied and created this situation of distrust.

I, too, had wondered if this $12K in CC debt might possibly be from before two years ago and perhaps she was afraid to disclose it back then. OP, is it possible this could be the case?

[pdxvandal]

Yeah, there is some unncessary vitriol or name-calling toward me, but I don't need to get into a pissing match with these keyboard warriors. I'm just seeking help, placing blame on both of us for not being on the same page and trying to figure out my sitch.

As far as old debts from a few years ago, I don't think so, as we ran credit reports before buying a house and took care of ALL her outstanding debts. The Chase card, though, was one she had before, so maybe she didn't cancel it, and in trusting her to do the right thing, I may have advised to her keep it open to not affect credit as we were going through the home-buying process. That's really a moot point though.

As far as our "old" cars, we both have seemingly been on the same page of having a nicer house than cars. We live in a un-Mustachian house that my wife really wanted that's now worth $750k. Sure, we could have bought a cheaper house and maybe upgpraded our cars. But if her car that she seems to truly like today comes up as an issue during counseling, so be it, but I highly doubt it will. We both work from home and don't drive our cars much oustide of groceries, child activities adn occasional road trip.

Thanks to those so far for the construtive advice. I've set up a counseling session for both of us tomorrow.

I’m a bit shocked at a few of the respondents who make it sound as if the OP has done something wrong. Even if he has been super-controlling with the money (not saying he has been), it’s his wife’s job to be an adult and speak up for herself and say what she needs. It is not her job to act like a child and hide expenditures by having a credit card she hasn’t disclosed and running up a hefty balance. She is the one who has lied and created this situation of distrust.

I, too, had wondered if this $12K in CC debt might possibly be from before two years ago and perhaps she was afraid to disclose it back then. OP, is it possible this could be the case?

[PMG]

I didn't quite make it through reading the whole thread, there is a lot of good advice here.  I want to emphasize that your wife is an adult. Talking to her as an adult member of your marriage team is really important. 

I also think that it is very important for every person to have a safety net, especially women who are often more vulnerable and likely to be stuck in abusive relationships and untenable situations.  Your wife is right to keep credit cards in her name, to keep back up accounts that only she has access to.  I am in a very loving relationship with a man that I cannot imagine ever being abusive but I will always have my own financial means and always have enough buffer that I could leave safely and start over.  He has that as well.  I don't expect us to ever use it, but it's important to have it.  It may also be important if one of us is incapacitated, illness, death. Both partners need to have knowledge and access and some independence. 

That said, it's not hidden. We each know about each others accounts and have regular updates. We're not always happy with the others spending priorities.. but you've gotten a lot of good advice already and I'm going to go back and read a bit more and see what I can learn as well.

edited for typos

[Letj]

I’m a bit shocked at a few of the respondents who make it sound as if the OP has done something wrong. Even if he has been super-controlling with the money (not saying he has been), it’s his wife’s job to be an adult and speak up for herself and say what she needs. It is not her job to act like a child and hide expenditures by having a credit card she hasn’t disclosed and running up a hefty balance. She is the one who has lied and created this situation of distrust.

I, too, had wondered if this $12K in CC debt might possibly be from before two years ago and perhaps she was afraid to disclose it back then. OP, is it possible this could be the case?

Has it occurred to you that this poor woman may be timid and afraid to speak up. Her husband sounds like a very controlling person and I won’t be surprised if he is verbally and emotionally abusive or worse. There are many women with self esteem issues that find themselves in this situation. He expresses no love for the wife and came across very cold in his post and made it clear the only thing that mattered to him is money.  Who really divorces a partner they love and cherish with whom they get along for such a trivial matter? He even  stated she was afraid he would divorce her hence she hid purchases from him. Frankly, I feel sorry for her. Maybe divorce would be better for her and she’ll find someone to love and cherish her.

[bacchi]

I’m a bit shocked at a few of the respondents who make it sound as if the OP has done something wrong. Even if he has been super-controlling with the money (not saying he has been), it’s his wife’s job to be an adult and speak up for herself and say what she needs. It is not her job to act like a child and hide expenditures by having a credit card she hasn’t disclosed and running up a hefty balance. She is the one who has lied and created this situation of distrust.

I, too, had wondered if this $12K in CC debt might possibly be from before two years ago and perhaps she was afraid to disclose it back then. OP, is it possible this could be the case?

Has it occurred to you that this poor woman may be timid and afraid to speak up. Her husband sounds like a very controlling person and I won’t be surprised if he is verbally and emotionally abusive or worse.

Seriously?

[Steeze]

I’m a bit shocked at a few of the respondents who make it sound as if the OP has done something wrong. Even if he has been super-controlling with the money (not saying he has been), it’s his wife’s job to be an adult and speak up for herself and say what she needs. It is not her job to act like a child and hide expenditures by having a credit card she hasn’t disclosed and running up a hefty balance. She is the one who has lied and created this situation of distrust.

I, too, had wondered if this $12K in CC debt might possibly be from before two years ago and perhaps she was afraid to disclose it back then. OP, is it possible this could be the case?

Has it occurred to you that this poor woman may be timid and afraid to speak up. Her husband sounds like a very controlling person and I won’t be surprised if he is verbally and emotionally abusive or worse.

Seriously?

Forgot tortures the children. Probably a child torturer also.


And kicks puppies.

[Metalcat]

I’m a bit shocked at a few of the respondents who make it sound as if the OP has done something wrong. Even if he has been super-controlling with the money (not saying he has been), it’s his wife’s job to be an adult and speak up for herself and say what she needs. It is not her job to act like a child and hide expenditures by having a credit card she hasn’t disclosed and running up a hefty balance. She is the one who has lied and created this situation of distrust.

I, too, had wondered if this $12K in CC debt might possibly be from before two years ago and perhaps she was afraid to disclose it back then. OP, is it possible this could be the case?

Has it occurred to you that this poor woman may be timid and afraid to speak up. Her husband sounds like a very controlling person and I won’t be surprised if he is verbally and emotionally abusive or worse. There are many women with self esteem issues that find themselves in this situation. He expresses no love for the wife and came across very cold in his post and made it clear the only thing that mattered to him is money.  Who really divorces a partner they love and cherish with whom they get along for such a trivial matter? He even  stated she was afraid he would divorce her hence she hid purchases from him. Frankly, I feel sorry for her. Maybe divorce would be better for her and she’ll find someone to love and cherish her.

Wow...

I threatened to literally castrate my ex the second time he stole money. And yes, I do consider racking up debt and lying about it to be theft, especially after getting caught once and swearing they'll never do it again.

...and that was me being nice.

[pdxvandal]

@Steeze , you've got me pegged perfectly! Especially the puppies part.

I’m a bit shocked at a few of the respondents who make it sound as if the OP has done something wrong. Even if he has been super-controlling with the money (not saying he has been), it’s his wife’s job to be an adult and speak up for herself and say what she needs. It is not her job to act like a child and hide expenditures by having a credit card she hasn’t disclosed and running up a hefty balance. She is the one who has lied and created this situation of distrust.

I, too, had wondered if this $12K in CC debt might possibly be from before two years ago and perhaps she was afraid to disclose it back then. OP, is it possible this could be the case?

Has it occurred to you that this poor woman may be timid and afraid to speak up. Her husband sounds like a very controlling person and I won’t be surprised if he is verbally and emotionally abusive or worse.

Seriously?

Forgot tortures the children. Probably a child torturer also.


And kicks puppies.

[englishteacheralex]

The tone of the first SOS post didn't strike me as potentially abusive...more just kind of insensitive and not working with the full information about how best to do finances as a married couple. The big issue, to me, was the taking over of 100% of finances after the first breach of trust--which doesn't strike me as abusive, more just not really knowing what else to do in the aftermath of a lot of pain and betrayal. But like Laura33 said, that initial response was not an adequate solution, and so this second breach is really just an extenuation of the first one, because the underlying issues in the first one were never really addressed.

Jumping immediately to the idea of divorce in the first post seemed extreme to me and not helpful at all, but you know, I get having a really unhelpful, over-the-top emotional response initially to a difficult situation.

I would say that for true reconciliation to occur, it is true that OP is going to have to accept and attempt to rectify his own contribution to the problem, instead of putting himself in a morally superior stance and making the wife the naughty child. That's a very tall order but unfortunately the way of marriage seems to involve tall orders of this type quite a lot. Not always in situations this extreme, fortunately.

[englishteacheralex]

Sorry to be so swept up in this but one of my favorite novels of all time is Middlemarch by George Elliot and this whole scenario is sooooo Tertius Lydgate and Rosamond Vincy.

[bacchi]

Sorry to be so swept up in this but one of my favorite novels of all time is Middlemarch by George Elliot and this whole scenario is sooooo Tertius Lydgate and Rosamond Vincy.

Name checks out.

[pdxvandal]

I approve of this message 110%.

The tone of the first SOS post didn't strike me as potentially abusive...more just kind of insensitive and not working with the full information about how best to do finances as a married couple. The big issue, to me, was the taking over of 100% of finances after the first breach of trust--which doesn't strike me as abusive, more just not really knowing what else to do in the aftermath of a lot of pain and betrayal. But like Laura33 said, that initial response was not an adequate solution, and so this second breach is really just an extenuation of the first one, because the underlying issues in the first one were never really addressed.

Jumping immediately to the idea of divorce in the first post seemed extreme to me and not helpful at all, but you know, I get having a really unhelpful, over-the-top emotional response initially to a difficult situation.

I would say that for true reconciliation to occur, it is true that OP is going to have to accept and attempt to rectify his own contribution to the problem, instead of putting himself in a morally superior stance and making the wife the naughty child. That's a very tall order but unfortunately the way of marriage seems to involve tall orders of this type quite a lot. Not always in situations this extreme, fortunately.

[Anoushka]

Ha! I just read Middlemarch recently. So true!

Sorry to be so swept up in this but one of my favorite novels of all time is Middlemarch by George Elliot and this whole scenario is sooooo Tertius Lydgate and Rosamond Vincy.

[Runrooster]

I have two aspects to this which confuse me:

1. Even if he decided they could afford $500/month, wouldn't she start overspending by $1000/month?  In other words, how do people who can't stick to a budget ever set a limit on their spending?

2. This gets to the threads about converting your spouse to mustachianism, which I am skeptical of.  If your spouse doesnt like numbers and charts, then retirement - much less early - is not much motivation to change your spending.  Its like yo-yo dieting where you might get someone on board long enough to drive down debt or a year or two.  But long term, advertising, keeping up with the Joneses, etc. kick in.  I'm a very low budget female (I spend maybe $2/year on feminine hygiene, not $15/month.) but if someone suggested I cut my food spending in half by eating cabbage 4 times a week, I would balk.  I could do it for some temporary urgent need, but I doubt it would stick.

The point is, between the student loans, the $50K CC debt, this minimum $12K debt, this woman sounds like a spender, very bad with finances.  I feel like budgeting is a life skill you dont learn after the age of 40.  If you dont accept that someone else needs to run the money portion of your life, you will have no money.

I have a lot of sympathy for OP but no advice.  When children are involved I would tread very carefully about divorce.  But stories like these make me very gun shy towards marriage. 

[MilesTeg]

Frankly, her "spending problem" is not at all a problem. Not, it's not MMM approved, but regardless you guys live way below your means even with this. Likely the only reason there's $12k racked up on a CC over a couple years is because you've been controlling, overbearing and made it all but impossible for her to pay that card as she goes (thus racking up interest!) by treating her as a child/inferior.

Some posters have called it "theft" which is ludicrous. You don't own her or the money that she brings in via her job. A marriage vow is not a transfer of ownership of her person or the fruits of her labor (nor yours). Period.

You need to step back and realize you are not dealing with anything remotely "pathological" when it comes to the amount, and instead work on resolving the obvious difference in opinion about finances. As I said before, the only actual problem here is poor communication between you two.

[Metalcat]

Frankly, her "spending problem" is not at all a problem. Not, it's not MMM approved, but regardless you guys live way below your means even with this. Likely the only reason there's $12k racked up on a CC over a couple years is because you've been controlling, overbearing and made it all but impossible for her to pay that card as she goes (thus racking up interest!) by treating her as a child/inferior.

Some posters have called it "theft" which is ludicrous. You don't own her or the money that she brings in via her job. A marriage vow is not a transfer of ownership of her person or the fruits of her labor (nor yours). Period.

You need to step back and realize you are not dealing with anything remotely "pathological" when it comes to the amount, and instead work on resolving the obvious difference in opinion about finances. As I said before, the only actual problem here is poor communication between you two.

I called my own situation theft, and it was.

[Sandi_k]

I don't think you have ANY IDEA how expensive it is to be a woman in America today, with even a FRACTION of a desire to dress well, and to have stylish clothes or hair or home.

*In case there is any doubt:  that is totally not me.  Ugh.  But I know people who do enjoy that.  And the fact that I don't does not make them wrong. 

**I mean, feminism, patriarchy, societal expectations, commercial culture, etc., sure, but that's another post (or thousand).

@Laura33 - I agree - I spend *maybe* $400 per year on clothes, and *maybe* $200 per year on personal products and makeup. But I'm an old lady, and I've never been a glamour girl.

My brother's wife? Former actress. She spends in a month what I do in a year on clothing and personal items.

I am *CHEAP*. Which is why I gave my numbers, because THOSE ARE LOW for the average woman in the workforce.

[pdxvandal]

@Sandi_k

My SO has worked from home for the last 16 months and is typically in jeans and a sweater or casual collared shirt most of the workday, at least after she changes from her robe and slippers at 10 a.m. But OK. She's already rid herself of a lot of more professional and business attire in the past year. And this isn't the East Coast or LA ... we live in a casually clothed environment all around us.

She spent about $200 on her hair all year (one-time expense in 2020), and even had a friend cut it unprofessionally this spring for free.

[charis]

You seem to be commenting on the spending you know about, which is not the issue, right? You yourself said she spends money on expensive clothing, so...

I don't understand why women pay so much for new clothes and shoes, and many do. I literally walked into the neighborhood thrift shop at lunch last week and walked out with several barely used or new with tags high end brand name dresses and shoes for $35. There was a huge sale because folks have been scared off by the pandemic.  I used to go to "consignment" shops until I realized it was just a way to charge twice as much for the same things you can find in a thrift shop or on ebay.

I get it. I usually donate stuff that I never wore because it was the wrong size but I was too lazy to return in time.

[Runrooster]

You don't own her or the money that she brings in via her job. A marriage vow is not a transfer of ownership of her person or the fruits of her labor (nor yours).

Whether a couple has joint finances or not, there will be problems long term if one person has no savings while the other has an emergency fund, health care savings, retirement savings.

[rothwem]

Frankly, her "spending problem" is not at all a problem.

Its not the amount of money spent, its the fact that both parties aren't on the same page. 

Honestly, this thread hits home for me a bit.  We're not in the lying stage YET, but since we've had a kid we disagree a LOT on what is an "essential" purchase and what isn't, and I am worried that we're going to get to where the OP is right now.  The OP's wife sounds a lot like my own--she doesn't have expensive taste, but she just has a poor idea of how to manage money and stick to a budget.  Its absolutely inconceivable that we might choose to only buy the $30 shoes for the kid rather than the extra cute $60 shoes to stay within our budget.  BUT WHY WOULD YOU DENY OUR CHILD SHOES?!

I've got no idea how to help you @pdxvandal, but I feel for you. 

[simple money]

I think a big part of this is going to be seeing the credit card statements.
When I went through this, I worried what he was spending this money on and if he isn't open with me about it...it must be bad.
However, I eventually gave him no choice and went through all credit card statements and it made the situation better.
Yes, he spends money on things I would never buy but it's things that make him happy and nothing to destroy a marriage over.

[Hawaiian]

I went through almost the exact same situation with my ex!

Forgive my grammar...

Stupid mistake #1 - First year of marriage I worked full time and the ex was a stay at home mom. She insisted on taking care of our finances and I naively agreed.

Fast forward 7 years later with three kids and I started getting debt collectors calling about a clothing store credit card and student loans. She denied it all and claimed she had no idea. A few months/debt collector calls later I pull our credit reports and discovered over $200k in student loan debt and $80k in credit cards.

Stupid mistake #2 - I suggested marriage counseling, she first dismissed the idea (I know I was a moron) but she only agreed after I said it's that or divorce.

Fast forward -  3 miserable years later of struggling to stay on budget (that we both agreed to) and her jumping from terrible job to terrible job (or getting fired which I found out years later) and cheating on me. I file for divorce and I have all three of my children 95% of the time.

Fast forward - 4 years - happier than ever. Just got married to my wife who I dated for almost 4 years who is almost a natural mustachian.

Looking back - when I first found out about the financial infidelity I was miserable. I talked to family and friends and even called Dave Ramsey for advice (he said financial infidelity is similar to sexual infidelity and it is extremely hard to recover from). My main concerns were my children growing up in a divorced home and the idea of not being able to see them often and also having to pay alimony and child support (being a broke distant father).

What I learned - 1. Divorce, child custody battles/laws, lawyers, guardian ad litem's, - they are all bullshit and a nightmare to deal with. BUT, it was all worth going through to get out of that miserable relationship. 2. Vetting while seriously dating should be standard practice. 3. People that have not been in this type of situation or dealt with a narcissist give shitty advice. 4. I was a moron and I'm a better human now after going through such a shit show.

If you need someone to talk to I'd be glad to talk to you about your situation. I have a passion for single parents and spouses that have dealt with fraud and betrayal.

[Chrissy]

I went through this with my first husband.  It led to divorce.  We went to a couples counselor who was a behavioral therapist; she was enormously helpful to me.  Things I learned:  spending addiction is very hard to break because people have to buy things.  Yes, it's theft.  It's the taking of marital resources without permission.  He was spending more than his agreed upon allotment, lying through omission (and sometimes actually lying), and then marital resources had to be used to make up the difference.  His addiction was his problem to fix, his lying was his problem to fix, my "helping" by handling all the finances was enabling him.

Find a good therapist.

[wellactually]

I would feel betrayed by this for sure. I'm glad you're seeking counseling. I do think you could probably find a way forward in the marriage if that is what you decide to do.

For me, I would have some requirements to build back trust. I would want to close out any non-joint credit cards. I'd want to do a credit freeze so that no additional cards can be opened up. Then I'd want my spouse to be in regular therapy. And I would want to create a list of guidelines together about your family finances.

After things settle down from the initial confrontation and counseling/therapy appointments, it would be great if you guys could each share what your idea family financial plan would look like. I find that conversations like these are easier if you are talking hypothetically. This would be a good conversation to have in couples counseling. Having a third party there will be helpful to correct it if one of you is projecting motivations on the other. It would also help because a counselor will make sure each of you contributes.

Hopefully, your wife will be at (or quickly come to) a point where she wants to be freed from the shame of hiding this spending and not addressing whatever is causing her to both spend and hide the spending. How willing she is to work on these issues is probably your biggest indicator of if you can reconcile and move forward.

[charis]

I completely agree with her being required to commit to regular therapy with an addiction specialist who handles this type of addiction as a condition of continuing the marriage.  It would be a red flag to me if she isn't on board with that.

[PoutineLover]

I read an interesting book called The Year of Less by Cait Flanders. It's a really good read about how she overcame her shopping addiction by putting herself on a shopping ban for a year. Highly recommend for your wife or anyone who struggles with compulsive shopping.

The marital issues are a bit more complicated. I expect transparency from my partner, but we have separate accounts and agree on joint spending together. If he was hiding debt from me, especially if affected me or if we had been through it before, I'd have a really hard time trusting him.

But it's also definitely worthwhile to try and find a solution before jumping straight to divorce. Having open, non-judgmental conversations about your finances, behaviours, feelings and figuring out how it got to this point might lead to solutions. I hope you can work it out, or at least give it an honest try.

[2Birds1Stone]

OP, I suggest you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover.

And LOL at the comments about you doing anything wrong here. Clearly there are some crazies among the bunch here that jump at any opportunity to manbash.

[JGS1980]

I went through almost the exact same situation with my ex!

Forgive my grammar...

Stupid mistake #1 - First year of marriage I worked full time and the ex was a stay at home mom. She insisted on taking care of our finances and I naively agreed.

Fast forward 7 years later with three kids and I started getting debt collectors calling about a clothing store credit card and student loans. She denied it all and claimed she had no idea. A few months/debt collector calls later I pull our credit reports and discovered over $200k in student loan debt and $80k in credit cards.

Stupid mistake #2 - I suggested marriage counseling, she first dismissed the idea (I know I was a moron) but she only agreed after I said it's that or divorce.

Fast forward -  3 miserable years later of struggling to stay on budget (that we both agreed to) and her jumping from terrible job to terrible job (or getting fired which I found out years later) and cheating on me. I file for divorce and I have all three of my children 95% of the time.

Fast forward - 4 years - happier than ever. Just got married to my wife who I dated for almost 4 years who is almost a natural mustachian.

Looking back - when I first found out about the financial infidelity I was miserable. I talked to family and friends and even called Dave Ramsey for advice (he said financial infidelity is similar to sexual infidelity and it is extremely hard to recover from). My main concerns were my children growing up in a divorced home and the idea of not being able to see them often and also having to pay alimony and child support (being a broke distant father).

What I learned - 1. Divorce, child custody battles/laws, lawyers, guardian ad litem's, - they are all bullshit and a nightmare to deal with. BUT, it was all worth going through to get out of that miserable relationship. 2. Vetting while seriously dating should be standard practice. 3. People that have not been in this type of situation or dealt with a narcissist give shitty advice. 4. I was a moron and I'm a better human now after going through such a shit show.

If you need someone to talk to I'd be glad to talk to you about your situation. I have a passion for single parents and spouses that have dealt with fraud and betrayal.

Although everyone's marriage is different, I want to commend Hawaiian for opening his heart here. There's a world of hurt he took the time to show us. Maybe something to learn from here...

[Swish]

She's a good mother, and nice person, but has made a lot of impulsive, bad decisions several times in her adult life, even before she met me (I'm not perfect either). We generally get along, but some of these financial infidelities may have allowed me to slowly drift further apart from her.

“Although we have some divergent interests, we also are generally aligned politically, musically, culinarily and travel-wise. Certainly some shared common interests here. No marriage is perfect and we have to recognize our successes”

If she truly has an addiction that is a real sickness. The other things you stated above a lot of people would kill for in a partner. I can empathize with your sense of betrayal but is she a good person who needs help love and support through an addiction or is she a evil bitch looking to ruin your life?

None of us can answer that better than you can and I think you already have. Based on the information you have presented so far I’d say love and support is the harder path but the right one. You have every right to your feelings and writing/venting in a neutral or safe place away from the raw emotions can help a lot. Sorry that you are walking through this tough season.

[Metalcat]

She's a good mother, and nice person, but has made a lot of impulsive, bad decisions several times in her adult life, even before she met me (I'm not perfect either). We generally get along, but some of these financial infidelities may have allowed me to slowly drift further apart from her.

“Although we have some divergent interests, we also are generally aligned politically, musically, culinarily and travel-wise. Certainly some shared common interests here. No marriage is perfect and we have to recognize our successes”

If she truly has an addiction that is a real sickness. The other things you stated above a lot of people would kill for in a partner. I can empathize with your sense of betrayal but is she a good person who needs help love and support through an addiction or is she a evil bitch looking to ruin your life?

None of us can answer that better than you can and I think you already have. Based on the information you have presented so far I’d say love and support is the harder path but the right one. You have every right to your feelings and writing/venting in a neutral or safe place away from the raw emotions can help a lot. Sorry that you are walking through this tough season.

Addiction may be an illness, but it's also 100% the sufferer's responsibility to manage it. There was a thread recently about whether or not people would date someone who was bipolar but wasn't being responsible with managing their illness and the resounding consensus was "no".

Addiction is no different, it's a mental illness and the person who suffers from it needs to take it seriously and do what it takes to try and manage it appropriately. If they're not doing that, then they aren't ready yet to let go of their addiction. There's a reason people talk about "rock bottom"; most addicts need to see the severe consequences of their actions before they're ready to let it go.

The spouse of an addict needs to provide support and compassion when there are bumps in the road of *recovery*, but they absolutely should not provide unconditional support to an addict who isn't ready to recover. We call that enabling. If the spouse is more invested in the recovery than the addict is, then that's a disaster and not even a remotely healthy dynamic.

Having lived with an addict who didn't take full responsibility for his addiction, I can say with authority that it's hell, even when they are otherwise the perfect partner. And believe me, my ex was exceptional, which is why I thought it was worth it, but I wanted his recovery more than he did, and that never works.

So if OP's spouse has an addiction, then she needs to be self motivated to seek intensive and extensive ongoing therapy, from a place of internal motivation and not just as an affort to appease her angry spouse. If she isn't internally motivated to tackle her addiction, then it's not a reason to stay, it's a reason to leave.

She may not be an addict though.
It's up to OP to decide how he wants to handle this, but I do strongly believe that he owes it to his kid to invest in figuring out what exactly is behind her behaviour and if it's something that he can live with.

If it's truly an addiction though, he'll need to educate himself thoroughly on the challenges and pitfalls of handling an addict spouse, because it's truly a complicated and dynamic challenge with A LOT of hidden land mines. He will need as much expert and ongoing therapy as she will.

[Swish]

So if OP's spouse has an addiction, then she needs to be self motivated to seek intensive and extensive ongoing therapy, from a place of internal motivation and not just as an affort to appease her angry spouse. If she isn't internally motivated to tackle her addiction, then it's not a reason to stay, it's a reason to leave.

She may not be an addict though.
It's up to OP to decide how he wants to handle this, but I do strongly believe that he owes it to his kid to invest in figuring out what exactly is behind her behaviour and if it's something that he can live with.

If it's truly an addiction though, he'll need to educate himself thoroughly on the challenges and pitfalls of handling an addict spouse, because it's truly a complicated and dynamic challenge with A LOT of hidden land mines. He will need as much expert and ongoing therapy as she will.

This is a good point @Malcat  From what I read she seems willing to work on it. If That’s not the case you can’t fix that. Several times OP referred to her as a good person. Also love doesn’t = enabling. It is a lot harder to do right by a person for what’s best in the long run and I’d say that is more loving than letting them continue down a self destructive path uncontested. Like you said tho they need to be willing to change.

[Metalcat]

So if OP's spouse has an addiction, then she needs to be self motivated to seek intensive and extensive ongoing therapy, from a place of internal motivation and not just as an affort to appease her angry spouse. If she isn't internally motivated to tackle her addiction, then it's not a reason to stay, it's a reason to leave.

She may not be an addict though.
It's up to OP to decide how he wants to handle this, but I do strongly believe that he owes it to his kid to invest in figuring out what exactly is behind her behaviour and if it's something that he can live with.

If it's truly an addiction though, he'll need to educate himself thoroughly on the challenges and pitfalls of handling an addict spouse, because it's truly a complicated and dynamic challenge with A LOT of hidden land mines. He will need as much expert and ongoing therapy as she will.

This is a good point @Malcat  From what I read she seems willing to work on it. If That’s not the case you can’t fix that. Several times OP referred to her as a good person. Also love doesn’t = enabling. It is a lot harder to do right by a person for what’s best in the long run and I’d say that is more loving than letting them continue down a self destructive path uncontested. Like you said tho they need to be willing to change.

I never said love equals enabling, I said giving an addict unconditional support when they aren't taking responsibility for their addiction is enabling.

After my experience, I trained in addiction counselling and this is actually a huge problem for parents and spouses, they often want recovery more than the addict does, and this usually leads to enabling. It comes from a good hearted place, but just prolongs the problem in the long run.

Trust me, I know *exactly* how hard it is to support an addict with a view to it being worth it in the long run. I did it for years. It was only after the fact when I became a bit of a subject matter expert on it that I realized that I was actually a huge part of the problem.

As for what we've read, we actually know very little based on what OP has said other than she hid debt once, went to a bit of counselling and then stopped, and has now hid debt again. Oh, and that OP is very hurt and angry and perhaps hasn't really trusted her since the first incident.

We have no idea if she's an addict or not, or if she has some other emotional issues that she's self soothing with secret spending, or if there's some other reason why she doesn't feel comfortable being open and honest with her partner.

[SimpleCycle]

Something here doesn’t add up, but I can’t quite put my finger on it.  Before this did you have separate finances?  Are your FIRE plans separate from her retirement plans?  You have a $1M net worth and your wife is hiding $500 a month in spending from you, which doesn’t make much sense from an outsider’s perspective, but also doesn’t scream spending addiction to me.  The lying and hiding would be a bigger deal to me, but I agree that this instance is really just a continuation of the first incident, which never had an adequate solution.

If your wife had come to you to ask for $500 of frivolous things to be added to the budget, how would you have responded?  I think the honest answer to that question might be revealing.

Edited to add: I don’t mean to sound blamey, I just think this might be a simple mismatch of priorities coupled with extreme communication issues that are resulting in bad behavior on her part.

[KarefulKactus15]

Lots of good information. I just wanted to add my thoughts as someone who is divorced AND someone who almost ended up homeless due to financial infidelity.

1.) You don't need to rush to divorce. Get some counseling. See WTF is going on.
2.) She is afraid to tell you - Resolve this immediately. She knows you will be mad or disappointed... you have every right to be. (Read my story for why getting her un afraid is priority #1
3.) If you cant get it resolved, you know what the other options are.  Me personally - I would have been gone the first time. But I have a bias based on personal experience.

Story:
My mom was and is basically your wife. When I was a kid she racked up a huge amount of CC and consumer debt. North of 50K while our family income was probably 35k in the 90s. Because she was so terrified of telling anyone she kept hiding it, to the point that she refinanced the house behind my dads back to try and resolve it. It just kept going. She had all the collectors calls forwarded to family members house ETC ETC. (My dad had no idea. He trusted my mom with the finances)

The bank was threatening foreclosure action by the time she finally came clean (And thats the only reason she came clean). My dad worked hard and we had a good life with family vacation etc etc... Not after that. Financially it ruined us and probably set my dad back 20 years on the debt treadmill. Also my dad had been making double payments by working 2x jobs to get ahead.  Imagine the shock thinking you would be done paying your mortgage off only to start over again with a substantially higher balance.

-This story is where your life can and might go if your wife remains too scared to tell you.

They are still together, but she still spends the same, but he trust her with nothing now.   And what did she spend all her $ on? She's a generous person so she was basically subsidizing her low income immediate family.

[MrThatsDifferent]

OP, there’s a lot going in here and from personal experience, I know it isn’t easy. I do err on the side of throwing the kitchen sink at saving the marriage before giving up on it, only so you know you did everything possible. If you take that attitude, then it might also bring you to deep honesty. Have that conversation where you say, I’ve lost trust in you, I need to know where you’re at, and we have to decide together what to do. That’s important to explore, because you’re at a critical juncture.

Now, the indelicate part: because this isn’t often discussed in these forums, something else to address is your sex and romantic life. What is the impact of your distrust having on that? Are you both having those needs met? How healthy is it? Clearly I don’t expect you to resolve that, however I know from experience that it’s not easy to feel romantic and lovey when you’ve lost trust.

I’d do everything in my control to repair the marriage (knowing you can’t and shouldn’t control the other person), and if that eventually proves unsuccessful I’d move on and not let the economics of divorce be the thing that keeps me in an unhappy, unhealthy marriage.

Oh, try to find the book “Co-dependent No More” by Melody Beattie. It will assist you with your own growth and focus.

[KarefulKactus15]

Im not sure I follow.  Looks like the right thread to me.

[JGS1980]

Wrong thread @JGS1980 ...?

Thanks, fixed it.

[Zamboni]

It's been a couple of weeks. Have you talked with her about it?

Good luck with everything!

[Hawaiian]

I went through almost the exact same situation with my ex!

Forgive my grammar...

Stupid mistake #1 - First year of marriage I worked full time and the ex was a stay at home mom. She insisted on taking care of our finances and I naively agreed.

Fast forward 7 years later with three kids and I started getting debt collectors calling about a clothing store credit card and student loans. She denied it all and claimed she had no idea. A few months/debt collector calls later I pull our credit reports and discovered over $200k in student loan debt and $80k in credit cards.

Stupid mistake #2 - I suggested marriage counseling, she first dismissed the idea (I know I was a moron) but she only agreed after I said it's that or divorce.

Fast forward -  3 miserable years later of struggling to stay on budget (that we both agreed to) and her jumping from terrible job to terrible job (or getting fired which I found out years later) and cheating on me. I file for divorce and I have all three of my children 95% of the time.

Fast forward - 4 years - happier than ever. Just got married to my wife who I dated for almost 4 years who is almost a natural mustachian.

Looking back - when I first found out about the financial infidelity I was miserable. I talked to family and friends and even called Dave Ramsey for advice (he said financial infidelity is similar to sexual infidelity and it is extremely hard to recover from). My main concerns were my children growing up in a divorced home and the idea of not being able to see them often and also having to pay alimony and child support (being a broke distant father).

What I learned - 1. Divorce, child custody battles/laws, lawyers, guardian ad litem's, - they are all bullshit and a nightmare to deal with. BUT, it was all worth going through to get out of that miserable relationship. 2. Vetting while seriously dating should be standard practice. 3. People that have not been in this type of situation or dealt with a narcissist give shitty advice. 4. I was a moron and I'm a better human now after going through such a shit show.

If you need someone to talk to I'd be glad to talk to you about your situation. I have a passion for single parents and spouses that have dealt with fraud and betrayal.

Although everyone's marriage is different, I want to commend Hawaiian for opening his heart here. There's a world of hurt he took the time to show us. Maybe something to learn from here...

@JGS1980  Thank you!

[Hawaiian]

After my experience, I trained in addiction counselling and this is actually a huge problem for parents and spouses, they often want recovery more than the addict does, and this usually leads to enabling. It comes from a good hearted place, but just prolongs the problem in the long run.

@Malcat has posted a lot of good advice but I think the point above (in bold) is the point you need to focus on most.

These are some real-life examples from my experience.

Enabling Examples (when I was with my ex) -
- You call the therapist and set the appointments, you take notes in therapy and lead the homework discussions assigned by the therapist.
- You schedule the budget discussion - you know if you don't it won't happen
- You notice the overspending/you track the budget - she has to be told when she goes over budget.
- She gets defensive about basic spending/budgeting and cannot have simple logical discussions - you cringe inside.
- She accuses you of being controlling after she agreed to a budget - you cringe inside...(she could be a narcissist)
- You avoid bringing up basic conversations because you know it will turn into an argument. i.e. "hey you went out to Starbucks 10 times last month, where should we charge that in the budget?"
- You can't sleep at night because you wonder what else she is lying about.


Healthy relationship examples (With my wife) -
- She brought savings into the relationship - not debt!
- She willingly reads marriage help books together
- She willingly discusses the budget together and tracks her own spending as well as yours - and doesn't take offense to it
- She is on-board with your FIRE plans and contributes ideas for alternative investment opportunities
- She expresses genuine interest in retirement goals - i.e. has played around with retirement and/or early mortgage payoff calculators
- She doesn't give you a guilt trip when you say you just want to go home and eat a healthy meal or that you have gone out to eat too much that week/month
- A lot of healthy examples are the opposite of the "enabling examples" above...

[Sunder]

Wow. This thread in itself could be a basis of a study in sociology, especially marriage.

I'll be frank. I understand everything posted here intellectually at least... But personally and emotionally? I don't get it. When I read some of these posts, I get the feeling of house mates, or business partnerships. When someone says "What happens when you have retirement funds, health cover, high network worth, and she's still in debt", my first thought is how??!! Is the husband going to go on first class exotic cruises by himself, while she's struggling meet her share of the power bill?

When I look at this situation, I suspect there's some pretty deep unaddressed issues here. Did OP and partner agree to take on a FIRE lifestyle? If so, was the commitment from OP's spouse genuine? If it was genuine, why is she unable to keep to her commitments? Is it a mal-adapted coping mechanism? I had a friend who when he got stressed, would just buy random stuff on eBay. Dad had to bail him out to the tune of 100k, but his wife left him anyway. If OP didn't obtain his spouse's agreement, or got lip service to it, there's a bigger problem right there. Did he coerce her into it? Did she deceive either because she wanted him to give it a rest, or had no intention ever of working towards the same goal.

I suggest that working at this problem at face value, will either end in divorce, or the same issue happening again. If OP and his spouse don't get to working out what is going on underneath this issue, I don't hold out much hope for them.

My view is getting personal, rather than practical now. But the more I see of "contemporary" marriage, the more convinced I am that traditional marriage got it right. If you are married, and you still think in terms of "my money" and "your money", you're setting yourself up to fail. Because a team doesn't have my goals which are funded through my money, and your goals which are funded through your money. It doesn't work like that in business, and it definitely doesn't work like that in marriage. There's no my money or her money, or my income or her income, or my desires, or her desires in our marriage. I meant it when I said 11 years ago:

Rebekah, I give you this ring
as a sign of our marriage.
With my body I honour you,
all that I am I give to you,
and all that I have I share with you,
within the love of God,
Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Even though I want to lean out our lifestyle, I would never push it to the point where my wife felt she had to deceive me to get something she wanted. If that happened, something much, much more serious than financial infidelity has gone wrong.

[Dave1442397]

My view is getting personal, rather than practical now. But the more I see of "contemporary" marriage, the more convinced I am that traditional marriage got it right. If you are married, and you still think in terms of "my money" and "your money", you're setting yourself up to fail. Because a team doesn't have my goals which are funded through my money, and your goals which are funded through your money. It doesn't work like that in business, and it definitely doesn't work like that in marriage. There's no my money or her money, or my income or her income, or my desires, or her desires in our marriage.

I agree. I know it seems to work for many people, but I find separate finances in a marriage to be a strange thing. We allocate a certain amount of money each week to personal spending, and neither of us cares what the other spends it on, but the rest is 'our' money.

[Imma]

My view is getting personal, rather than practical now. But the more I see of "contemporary" marriage, the more convinced I am that traditional marriage got it right. If you are married, and you still think in terms of "my money" and "your money", you're setting yourself up to fail. Because a team doesn't have my goals which are funded through my money, and your goals which are funded through your money. It doesn't work like that in business, and it definitely doesn't work like that in marriage. There's no my money or her money, or my income or her income, or my desires, or her desires in our marriage.

I agree. I know it seems to work for many people, but I find separate finances in a marriage to be a strange thing. We allocate a certain amount of money each week to personal spending, and neither of us cares what the other spends it on, but the rest is 'our' money.

If you are in a religion-based marriage and this is the approach you chose and you are happy with it, good for you. But to each their own. We don't regard ourselves as a team and staying together for life is not a goal, but one possible outcome. We are partnership of two equal individuals. So we vowed to take care of each other when necessary for as long as we are together. And I'll stick to that vow. I'm not going to let Mr Imma go hungry if I have money. But I'm not going to give up my individual needs and passions for the sake of "us" and I would also never ask Mr Imma to sacrifice things that are important to him. 7 years in, this approach still works. If at some point we decide to separate because we're on different paths, that doesn't mean we've failed.

[Dicey]

My view is getting personal, rather than practical now. But the more I see of "contemporary" marriage, the more convinced I am that traditional marriage got it right. If you are married, and you still think in terms of "my money" and "your money", you're setting yourself up to fail. Because a team doesn't have my goals which are funded through my money, and your goals which are funded through your money. It doesn't work like that in business, and it definitely doesn't work like that in marriage. There's no my money or her money, or my income or her income, or my desires, or her desires in our marriage.

I agree. I know it seems to work for many people, but I find separate finances in a marriage to be a strange thing. We allocate a certain amount of money each week to personal spending, and neither of us cares what the other spends it on, but the rest is 'our' money.

Ha! I completely agree with both of you. It helps that we each were FI when we wed, or more correctly, getting married made us FI, but I agree that separate finances, even for personal spending, is er...um...odd.

And @Sunder, what a thoughtful post. Welcome to the forum!

[Metalcat]

My view is getting personal, rather than practical now. But the more I see of "contemporary" marriage, the more convinced I am that traditional marriage got it right. If you are married, and you still think in terms of "my money" and "your money", you're setting yourself up to fail. Because a team doesn't have my goals which are funded through my money, and your goals which are funded through your money. It doesn't work like that in business, and it definitely doesn't work like that in marriage. There's no my money or her money, or my income or her income, or my desires, or her desires in our marriage.

I agree. I know it seems to work for many people, but I find separate finances in a marriage to be a strange thing. We allocate a certain amount of money each week to personal spending, and neither of us cares what the other spends it on, but the rest is 'our' money.

Ha! I completely agree with both of you. It helps that we each were FI when we wed, or more correctly, getting married made us FI, but I agree that separate finances, even for personal spending, is er...um...odd.

And @Sunder, what a thoughtful post. Welcome to the forum!

I personally don't understand totally separate finances in a marriage, but I'm big on respecting that individuals are different, and there are A LOT of aspects of A LOT of marriages that I don't understand.

However, I did and will *always* snort laugh when anyone invokes the past as a time when marriages were better.

Pretty much any and all research will indicate that on average, marriages are more love based now than they have ever been, and that's almost entirely because individuals can have financial autonomy.

Do a lot of marriages suck? Yep
Did a lot of marriages suck in the past despite lower divorce rates? You betcha

[NextTime]

My view is getting personal, rather than practical now. But the more I see of "contemporary" marriage, the more convinced I am that traditional marriage got it right. If you are married, and you still think in terms of "my money" and "your money", you're setting yourself up to fail. Because a team doesn't have my goals which are funded through my money, and your goals which are funded through your money. It doesn't work like that in business, and it definitely doesn't work like that in marriage. There's no my money or her money, or my income or her income, or my desires, or her desires in our marriage.

I agree. I know it seems to work for many people, but I find separate finances in a marriage to be a strange thing. We allocate a certain amount of money each week to personal spending, and neither of us cares what the other spends it on, but the rest is 'our' money.

If you are in a religion-based marriage and this is the approach you chose and you are happy with it, good for you. But to each their own. We don't regard ourselves as a team and staying together for life is not a goal, but one possible outcome. We are partnership of two equal individuals. So we vowed to take care of each other when necessary for as long as we are together. And I'll stick to that vow. I'm not going to let Mr Imma go hungry if I have money. But I'm not going to give up my individual needs and passions for the sake of "us" and I would also never ask Mr Imma to sacrifice things that are important to him. 7 years in, this approach still works. If at some point we decide to separate because we're on different paths, that doesn't mean we've failed.

Are there any financial benefits to being married in your country? For instance, in the US there are often tax benefits associated to being married. If religion isn’t a factor, and their are no financial benefits to a legal union, then what is the point of being in a marriage? You can make the same commitment without a legal union, and it would be much easier to go your own separate way should you choose to do so. No judgment, just curious.