Fighting the military money culture

[MicroRN]

I'm sure someone else has had to deal with this.  My husband is an officer in the Navy.  While it comes with a nice paycheck, it also comes with the expectation to spend it all.  Everyone is encouraged to have big houses, big new cars, and all the extras.  There's a really strong "work hard, play harder" attitude.  There are a lot of expensive group dinners out, poker games on the boat, and "mandatory fun" outings.  The spouses go out to eat 1-2 times a week (I skip it, using work/kids as an excuse).  I really think that the spending is encouraged so that people feel they can't afford to get out of the Navy.  Our total rent + utilities costs a little under our housing allowance, and we even live in a huge older house in a decent neighborhood.  I know that most of the other families are spending over BAH for rent/mortgage alone.   

The hard part is that I really don't want any changes we make to negatively affect him.  It's easy for me to say that we shouldn't spend the money, but he's the one who has to work with everyone and live with them in tight quarters for months on end.  I lucked out on finding a nice house at a very reasonable price, but he was determined that we had to have a big house rather than an apartment, because it was expected at his rank.  When I was pointing out that we should pay off the car, he was telling me that it was better to have a car payment because it showed you made the payments reliably - something he'd been told at work.  And, of course, that the rate on student loans was so low it was silly to pay them off ahead of time.  They all get a talk about how debt is bad, but that only seems to include using Payday loan places, or any debt that causes you to miss payments.  He was strongly encouraged to take out a commissioning loan to buy stuff.  Thank goodness we paid that off ages ago.  He's really smart, but doesn't like paying attention to money.

So, what do I do here?  I'm drastically cutting costs around the house.  We sold our sailboat.  Lost money on it, but no more slip/maintenance/etc fees.  Groceries/household goods are down by about 50%.  I've already completely cut my eating and coffee habit, thanks to prepping snacks and buying a good quality travel mug.  We use cloth diapers (at least those are trendy, so we can play the enviro angle rather than the money one).  I recently applied for a new job at a hospital that's less than a mile away, so I can start biking to work.  We haven't hit badassity, but every month I'm freeing up more money.  The roadblock I'm hitting is that I need to get some buy-in.  There's only so much I can do without it. 

[Another Reader]

You need to read Nords' blog and then get DH to read it.  Search Nords in the forum users to get the name of the blog.  He's a retired nuke guy and his blog is all about military retirement and money management.  He and his wife are both USNA grads.  There is a better way, and Nords can help you find it.

[captainawesome]

Sounds like an aviator by the description, but I could be off.  Coming from a guy who knows the common expectations of military officers, here's my advice. Completely ignore the spending patterns of everyone else. I can't tell you how many senior officers I've watched get out after 20, 25, even 30 years of faithful service scramble to find a job (usually as a GS or defense contractor/consultant) the day they retire.  Why? Because they spend more than they make to keep up some sort of preconceived image. And their pension can't cover basic living expenses.

You are right that the military teaches you to keep your credit cards paid, but nothing towards smart spending. I take a totally different approach to it all. We save almost 60% of our income because we know funding lapses are bound to happen again, promotion rates are at a low, and I simply don't want to work past my 20 (if I stay in). Which is another point, I'm not hell bent to stay in if it's not right for me and my family.  And being financially sound (with no debts, good savings and investments) gives me the option to take jobs both in and out of the military that keep me happy.

 My recommendation is try to implement practices that will benefit you both long term, and ignore the suggestions at work. Drive smarter cars with no payments ( and become a single car family if you can) pay off student loans (unless the rates are low enough and you are investing and making more) invest in the tsp (Roth or traditional) and IRAs.  There are some unavoidable events, like wardroom dinners and outings, but maximize your savings elsewhere to compensate. Develop a comfortable lifestyle when you're husband is home, and you'll be able to save even more when he's away. That way when he does retire he can enjoy life at home after a respectable and honorable career.

At the end of the day, YMMV, but my spending habits have actually received a lot of positive attention, and I have a lot of guys asking about MNVOs, biking to work, smart car purchases, investments etc. and not asking why I didn't buy the latest 3 series or why I don't go out to lunch everyday (at a staff tour).

[Khan]

I really think that the spending is encouraged so that people feel they can't afford to get out of the Navy.

I was in for 6 years, and that I think hits the nail on the head. I was enlisted, but that's the feeling I got from those that were staying in(Nuke ET1(SS)), was that they couldn't imagine giving up the security of the Navy paycheck(or going without for even a couple of months while searching for a job).

You, and your husband are answerable to yourselves, not the Navy's culture.

[MilStachian]

MicroRN,
I'm sorry you are in this position.  I've been an Army officer for five years, and I've been fortunate to have almost the exact opposite experience.  My wife (who earns more than I do) would get together with other spouses and they would swap methods on how to be more frugal.  Instead of all going out to dinner, we would have our friends over for dinner, and they in turn would invite us.  Box o' wine was our drink of choice.

HOWEVER, I did see an anti-frugality mentality creep up around cars.  The guys really all wanted to have nice, new Ford F-150s, Toyota Tundra trucks, etc. 

Bucking the trend is hard, and there are definitely some silly expenses that come along with being an officer (hail and farewells, cup and flower funds, "mandatory" events, etc.), but overall we just tried to surround ourselves with likeminded folks.

Frugal military families are out there; you just need to find them!  I know people here like to hate on Dave Ramsey sometimes, but there used to be flyers up for his Financial Peace program at our post.  I bet that would be a good place to start to find like-minded families.

[MicroRN]

Thanks for the suggestions, especially the blog.  He's actually engineer on a sub, so maybe someone who has BTDT would get through a little better.  I'm reading through everything I can to get suggestions for cutting expenses (cell phones, cars, all of that).  One of the things I'm shooting for is to be secure enough that he can choose to get out at the end of his contract.  I want him to be able to make that decision based on what he really wants to do, and not feel that he has to stay in for the money.

My first major goal with dialing down our expenses is to get to where we bank my entire paycheck, then move on from there.  Right out of college, I used to live well on $1600 a month takehome.  I miss those days!   

[Another Reader]

Get DH connected with Nords and his blog.  He was a submariner as well.  DH should be able to identify with Nords.

http://the-military-guide.com/

[Nords]

I'm sure someone else has had to deal with this.  My husband is an officer in the Navy.  While it comes with a nice paycheck, it also comes with the expectation to spend it all.  Everyone is encouraged to have big houses, big new cars, and all the extras.  There's a really strong "work hard, play harder" attitude.  There are a lot of expensive group dinners out, poker games on the boat, and "mandatory fun" outings.
So, what do I do here? 

Y'know, by the time I saw the word "boat" my nuke antennae were already twitching. 

Too much sub pay and nuclear bonus pay in too small a space with too many working hours.  Too much "mandatory fun" and "high-stress socializing".

Your spouse needs a new CO/XO.  In fact if I served with anyone from his admiral on down then I'd be happy to personally come over there and... well, never mind.  Let me just say that his chain of command should know better than that.

The attitude infecting his wardroom is "Why should I save?  Life is too tough, I work too hard, and I could be killed tomorrow!"  That is not an excuse for living paycheck to paycheck, being hostage to vesting a pension, and possibly having to work for the rest of his life.  If he thinks he's miserable now then wait until he gets to be a fresh O-5 at the 15-year point and the detailer tells him what he's going to have to do to get that CO tour.  Either that or the phrase  "COMNAVFORKOREA staff duty".

Thanks for the suggestions, especially the blog.  He's actually engineer on a sub, so maybe someone who has BTDT would get through a little better.  I'm reading through everything I can to get suggestions for cutting expenses (cell phones, cars, all of that).  One of the things I'm shooting for is to be secure enough that he can choose to get out at the end of his contract.  I want him to be able to make that decision based on what he really wants to do, and not feel that he has to stay in for the money.

With his pay and your skills, the two of you have plenty of income to achieve financial independence within 5-10 years.  You already know that you could bank the difference between his O-3 & O-4 pay, all of his sub pay, all of his sea pay, and all of his bonus pay.  He has no excuse.  My spouse and I did the same with less pay-- and when I was on active duty (during the last millennium) the bonus contract was "only" $10K/year.

The irony is that he has plenty of crap to take care of onboard, plenty of junior officers to mentor, and plenty of his own career planning to work on.  (Finished those command quals yet?  How's that JPME coming?)  He already knows what a PITA (and an expense) it is to take care of a multimillion-dollar propulsion system-- why burden his personal life with the responsibility of maintaining a big house, a car, and a bunch of other material possessions?

He has every excuse to say "Sorry, XO, I've already been out enough evenings this week, time to catch up with the spouse and my professional reading."  He can also try saying "Well, our car may be a piece of crap, but I work too hard to enjoy it anyway and I'd rather be able to retire with that car than have to drive a BMW to an office for the rest of my life" or "I'd rather have a big investment account than a big mortgage".  At the very least he could say "Sure, XO, I'll take the duty so that one of the other officers can join you and the CO at Dave & Busters this incredibly important wardroom professional event." 

The book is excerpted in the oldest six months of blog posts (http://the-military-guide.com/post-titles-by-month/) and the book is almost certainly in the base library or the local public library.  If you guys are in my time zone then I'd be happy to get together for a cup of coffee. 

If you want me to pay a little social call to his CO or XO, either on the phone or in Pearl Harbor, then I'd be happy to do that as well.  Seriously.

If they want a little glimpse of "life after Navy" then I can also introduce them to a retired admiral in his 70s who is still showing up for a 40-hour workweek.  He has a very nice big house and a nice car, along with a huge mortgage and car payments.  He has a very nice O-8 pension and cheap healthcare (as well as some Social Security) but he never saved anything over the decades.  He's living paycheck to paycheck.

[Cooperd0g]

It can be tough doing something different from the guys, but he has to be confident enought to be able to buck the trend. It took me a while to figure it out myself. I wasn't the best saver, but I also wasn't the guy who bought two new cars 10 with loans months before my MSR was up, no cash in the bank, been talking about getting out ... But there was no job so they had to stay in. If for no other reason than having the option to say "no" to the kinds of crappy orders Nords mentioned and/or get out on your own terms he should start to get the picture.

[MicroRN]

Nords - thanks for your comments.  I've bookmarked the blog to do some reading.  Fortunately, most of the really bad financial advice (not bothering to pay off debt) was from his previous boat.  That was the same boat where one of the JOs was taken to task for driving a beater car.  Or maybe it's not fortunate, because the same folks who told him that are probably still passing it on to others.  If we were in HI, I would definitely try to get him to talk to you about the realities further on.     

However, he's told me about wardroom discussions on his current boat that essentially came down to using your money to make up for stress.  Pay for a housekeeper, pay for a lawn service - it's worth it!  Join the Y rather than use the base gym because it's nicer.  And besides, they have a military discount, so you'll save money!

He's out right now, and my big project while he's gone is to tighten down our expenses and stick a chunk in investments.  I'm also finding resources to hand him that will hopefully help him get on board.  Our net worth is around $140K, so we're ahead of a lot of folks our age, but the 10 year timeline is what I was looking at too.  I don't expect to fully retire in 10 years, but nurses can get wonderfully flexible PT hours. 

[mm1970]

I'm sure someone else has had to deal with this.  My husband is an officer in the Navy.  While it comes with a nice paycheck, it also comes with the expectation to spend it all.  Everyone is encouraged to have big houses, big new cars, and all the extras.  There's a really strong "work hard, play harder" attitude.  There are a lot of expensive group dinners out, poker games on the boat, and "mandatory fun" outings.  The spouses go out to eat 1-2 times a week (I skip it, using work/kids as an excuse).  I really think that the spending is encouraged so that people feel they can't afford to get out of the Navy.  Our total rent + utilities costs a little under our housing allowance, and we even live in a huge older house in a decent neighborhood.  I know that most of the other families are spending over BAH for rent/mortgage alone.   

The hard part is that I really don't want any changes we make to negatively affect him.  It's easy for me to say that we shouldn't spend the money, but he's the one who has to work with everyone and live with them in tight quarters for months on end.  I lucked out on finding a nice house at a very reasonable price, but he was determined that we had to have a big house rather than an apartment, because it was expected at his rank.  When I was pointing out that we should pay off the car, he was telling me that it was better to have a car payment because it showed you made the payments reliably - something he'd been told at work.  And, of course, that the rate on student loans was so low it was silly to pay them off ahead of time.  They all get a talk about how debt is bad, but that only seems to include using Payday loan places, or any debt that causes you to miss payments.  He was strongly encouraged to take out a commissioning loan to buy stuff.  Thank goodness we paid that off ages ago.  He's really smart, but doesn't like paying attention to money.

So, what do I do here?  I'm drastically cutting costs around the house.  We sold our sailboat.  Lost money on it, but no more slip/maintenance/etc fees.  Groceries/household goods are down by about 50%.  I've already completely cut my eating and coffee habit, thanks to prepping snacks and buying a good quality travel mug.  We use cloth diapers (at least those are trendy, so we can play the enviro angle rather than the money one).  I recently applied for a new job at a hospital that's less than a mile away, so I can start biking to work.  We haven't hit badassity, but every month I'm freeing up more money.  The roadblock I'm hitting is that I need to get some buy-in.  There's only so much I can do without it.

So, what does he do in the Navy?

My husband and I were both in the Navy, and that wasn't out experience at all.  I still have a few frugal good friends who are in (one is a Captain).

We were nukes though and our friends are mostly submariners and nukes.  May vary by the job.

Try to get him to agree to cut back by about half to start.  Group lunches, dinners, etc. build comraderie, true.  But you don't have to go to every single one for that.  My husband cut his eating out from a couple times a week a few years ago to twice a month.

[mm1970]

Thanks for the suggestions, especially the blog.  He's actually engineer on a sub, so maybe someone who has BTDT would get through a little better.  I'm reading through everything I can to get suggestions for cutting expenses (cell phones, cars, all of that).  One of the things I'm shooting for is to be secure enough that he can choose to get out at the end of his contract.  I want him to be able to make that decision based on what he really wants to do, and not feel that he has to stay in for the money.

My first major goal with dialing down our expenses is to get to where we bank my entire paycheck, then move on from there.  Right out of college, I used to live well on $1600 a month takehome.  I miss those days!

Wow, maybe things have changed since I got out then. ?  Seriously one of the most frugal women I know was in the Navy and her husband is a sub commander.  They are still driving their 1994 and 1995 cars.  Maybe it's a generational thing or he just got unlucky with the people in his wardroom... unlucky from a money sense.  And he's eng, so it's not like he's young.  Huh.  I'm stumped.

[Nords]

Fortunately, most of the really bad financial advice (not bothering to pay off debt) was from his previous boat.  That was the same boat where one of the JOs was taken to task for driving a beater car. 

I put up with that crap from at least one boss in every command for nearly 20 years.  Lots of BMWs and a few Ferraris in the 1990s COMSUBPAC parking lot, too, although the staff was indoors there for about 70 hours/week.  But financial independence was the least of their concerns-- they were all going to be Chairman of the JCS and then retire to become titans of industry or government. 

I can understand the peer pressure (especially in East Coast Navy) to "support the wardroom in its social endeavors".  That's great when it's the Submarine Birthday Ball or a sporting event for the Commodore's Cup or volunteering at a charity or some other team-building exercise.  However when "support the wardroom" is just an excuse for going out to fancy restaurants (or O-Clubs bars), or no-limit Texas Hold 'Em at the XO's paygrade, then it's out of line.  When one of the junior crew buys a $30K pickup truck with a six-year loan and goes out drinking, well... they're just trying to emulate the leadership example of the wardroom.

However, he's told me about wardroom discussions on his current boat that essentially came down to using your money to make up for stress.  Pay for a housekeeper, pay for a lawn service - it's worth it!  Join the Y rather than use the base gym because it's nicer.  And besides, they have a military discount, so you'll save money!

I can see the housecleaner & lawn service if it makes both of your lives easier, but sometimes it just exchanges physical labor for shoddy work and scheduling drama.  (I guess it depends on the quality of the contractor.)  When he's not around (and you're working) then it's even better if the house/yard have minimal maintenance in the first place or if they're cared for by the landlord/base housing. 

While you might appreciate the Y, he's only available inport about 65% of the year anyway-- let alone having the time/energy to use it.  Ironically when he's underway he's probably working out on a beatup treadmill or exercycle between the main turbines, or doing situps & pushups on diamond deck, or pullups on various pieces of overhead.  And yet somehow the base gym isn't nice enough...

I'm not going to comment on the cognitive dissonance of paying for a Y membership to get some exercise while paying for a housecleaner and a yard service to do hard physical labor.

He's out right now, and my big project while he's gone is to tighten down our expenses and stick a chunk in investments.  I'm also finding resources to hand him that will hopefully help him get on board.  Our net worth is around $140K, so we're ahead of a lot of folks our age, but the 10 year timeline is what I was looking at too.  I don't expect to fully retire in 10 years, but nurses can get wonderfully flexible PT hours.

Hopefully he'll enjoy messing around with this calculator:
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/06/24/how-many-years-does-it-take-to-reach-financial-independence/
or the spreadsheet math behind it:
http://the-military-guide.com/2011/01/03/how-many-years-does-it-take-to-become-financially-independent-2/
(H/T again to Arebelspy for adding the spreadsheet to that post!)

It's good to have a net worth above your wardroom peers, but you're also a dual-working couple.  When my spouse and I were dual-military O-3s at the end of 1991, and I was halfway through my Weps tour (no O-4 pay!), our net worth was $450K.  That's a 1991 number, not adjusted for inflation to 2013.  I made O-4 in 1992 and by the end of 1994 we'd managed to boost that number by another $200K, mostly through being underway or on staff duty all the time savings-- definitely not by brilliant investing.  Maybe it'd be better for his competitive urges to compare your savings to other dual-working couples in your income range... then he could try to save a higher percentage of your income instead of working twice as hard to save half the percentage.

I think part of the solution will be to get him to agree to a few parameters that you're going to turn into autopilot deductions from MyPay & checking accounts, so at the very worst he can say that he doesn't have the money available for socializing because it's already gone to debt payment & savings.  Then you can keep boosting his TSP & your Roth IRA contributions (and taxable accounts) with every pay raise and promotion.  And those bonus checks?  Blow 5% on some hedonistic thrill (not on a material possession to maintain or a recurring expense) and put the other 95% in the TSP or a taxable account.

The trick for both of you is to avoid burnout after he's saddled himself with an expensive lifestyle and feels locked into it.

And he's eng, so it's not like he's young.  Huh.  I'm stumped.

Hey hey hey-- in the submarine force it's routine to become an Engineer at eight years of service-- before your 30th birthday.  And if you're a real eager beaver willing to skip shore duty, or if the incumbent Eng happens to break a leg, then it's possible to become an Eng at just over four years of service... as soon as Naval Reactors says you've passed the Engineer's Exam.  And, yes, we had one of each of those happen during my JO tour.  Luckily I managed to remain an "innocent bystander" for almost all of it. 
http://the-military-guide.com/2011/06/30/sea-story-looking-for-an-engineer-in-all-the-wrong-places/

Here, if you haven't already seen them, you can vicariously enjoy the rest of these flashbacks:
http://the-military-guide.com/category/sea-stories/

[arebelspy]

(H/T again to Arebelspy for adding the spreadsheet to that post!)

Hah, totally forgot about that.  That was before these forums existed, when the MMM blog itself was only a few months old!  :)

[CommonCents]

OP, also realize you are probably not the only one feeling this way.  See if you can suss out who else feels this way, and be the first to take a stand to move to more frugal lifestyle.

My dad was Coast Guard.  He stayed in 30 years, made 0-6, during which most of the time my mom didn't work.  They bought new cars they drove a lot (over 200,000 miles, not sure exactly, and 20 years).  They bemoaned buying a new stereo when the old one broke after ~20 years and 10 moves.  My mom recovered the living furniture chairs at the 5 year mark - and they've lasted another 30 and going strong.  Meals out were rare.  And now, they are semi-retired, paid off house and happy.  But the thing is - I don't remember them being hugely different from their friends.  Maybe they self-selected, but I doubt CG is that diff from the Navy.
Except in buying houses and choosing to rent that is, I think they were a little more savvy than some.  (For example, buying a house when Detroit had been hit crazy hard and houses were on the market for years, they bought with an eye to resale more than what they'd ideally like, and when they left they sold immediately, while some houses on the market 3 years prior were still on the market.)

[inthenavy]

Hi MicroRN!

I feel like I can relate to you quite well, as a fellow Navy Wife.  My husband is enlisted, but the work hard play hard culture is still very much alive at his rank. 

We found out we were expecting our first baby this year in April, and he was deployed in July.  In March we had about 55,000 in student loans and car debt, and my pregnancy was just the kick in the pants we needed to get serious about our finances.  Even at his E-5 salary and my working reduced hours as a speech therapist during pregnancy, we have managed to pay off the majority of our debt, with just under 7k to go. Obviously this has not come without sacrifice as we have done it entirely through our paychecks and selling one vehicle.  I can completely relate to your ambivalence about asking your husband to  go against the spending culture.  My husband works with a lot of young guys with no long term savings goals, and they easily blow $1000 at each port on hotels bars and restaurants.  They give my husband a really hard time about his choices, and I feel bad about that.  I mean he's a rescue swimming badass and can defend himself, and I am proud of him, but I just hope its not too isolating an experience for him. 

In some ways I understand the spending culture, because life on the boat is so hard. I mean, my husband will miss the birth of our daughter, and the first 4 months of her life.  But the truth is no amount of hotel or restaurant spending will change that, whereas saving money actually can make a meaningful difference in our quality of life.  We had so much debt because my husbands family couldnt afford to help with college and he wasnt very educated about student loans, so for him enlisting was a means of economic survival. We want to change that for our daughter.  We also want him to be able to choose whether or not he wants to stay in after he puts in his 20, and if he wants to retire and build birdhouses, I want it to be his free choice. 

As far as getting your husband as fired up as you are, have you shown him this blog?  I have told my husband so much about mr money mustahce that he had a dream about him as the monopoly guy:)  I am also encouraging my husband to read Nords book on his Kindle when he has the time (thank you Nords for your ministry to our troops!).  I think my husband has really enjoyed watching our meager retirement savings grow while deployed, its a hobby you can actually maintain on deployment if you have access to the internet.

I feel like in the military the only real financial wisdom that gets passed down is pretty simplistic, like always making your minimum payments, and "investing" in a house. I know that for a few people buying homes works out, but when you PCS every 3 years or so, and dont know the housing market, I think there is a good chance you will lose out.  We plan on investing the difference in BAH and what we pay in rent in a vanguard account and hopefully will pay cash for a house when he retires.

I'm sorry if this is all over the place, I am having a baby any day now, but just know that you are on the right track and you are a good wife and steward of the money that you both work so hard to earn.  I wish you well and hope you meet more like minded friends.  We are looking for some too! 

[MicroRN]

Inthenavy - I plan to show him MMM and a number of other sources when he gets back.  Unfortunately, on the sub, he doesn't have access to track finances or check the internet.  I'm hoping that seeing the sudden pop of money in the account when he returns will give him some of the boost.  The other thing is that several months at sea are hopefully going to get him out of the habit of buying random stuff online.

Congrats on your pregnancy!  I have a 2.5yo and a 10mo, so a lot of my drive has been because I want to have things well set up for them.  Right now we spend a small fortune in childcare, but that's a temporary situation.  I'm saving money around that, and then as soon as we can cut expenses we will, and put it straight into savings.  I'm so sorry that your husband will miss the birth.   

[turboseize]

As a former army officer I was a little bit amused by this thread. Sure, the "party hard" part is something I can connect with. After all, you could be dead tomorrow, couldn't you? But crazy parties once in a while or civilised dinners and consistently irresponsibly blowing your money are two different things.

Yes, there are evenings out with the bataillons officer corps, at fancy restaurants, with multiple course diners. And you are expected to meet in the casino during breaks and off duty. But the fancy restaurants are once a month, and drinks at the casino won't bankrupt you. (You could well spend an evening with a single digit bill... )

What I cannot understand ist the attitude towards debt... While there was a certain social pressure - officers perceive themselves as elite, and a lot of customs as well as self perception stem from the 19th century, when the officer corps consisted mostly of the gentry and nobility - it was very well understood that social class does not stem from material possessions or status symbols, but upbringing, education and perfect manners. And while you were expected to participate in receptions and balls and gentlemen's evenings, it was totally acceptable to drive a crappy beater. In effect, the older service age (in NCOs) or the higher the rank, the cheaper the car.
There was (and is) a tendency amongst young enlisted men (and young NCOs) to buy ridiculously expensive cars on a loan, which is widely regarded as dangerous and troublesome (and military intelligence does not like indebted service personnel at all, because debt makes susceptible to blackmail).
You were expected to keep your finances in order.



To sum it up:
Enlisted men and younger service members drive expensive cars and drink cheap alcohol, higher ranks drive cheap cars and drink fine wine in style. The latter is much more efficient pleasure-per-money-wise.  ;-)

This was a pattern I could observe in all european NATO armies. Even our U.S. allies seemed rather sensible (the last time I served in a unit with direct relations to the U.S. army was over a decade ago). Either this is a cultural thing army vs navy vs air force, or the U.S. armed forces have changed a lot during the last decade...

[Ozstache]

My financial values have always differed somewhat from the average military colleague here in Australia, and that gap has widened significantly since my discovery of MMM and like websites over a year ago and adoption of more principles thereof. I have found that I have been increasingly ostracized from group social activities and is one of the reasons why I am getting out early next year- I simply don't fit in with that spendy culture anymore. Might seem like a bit of a cop out but I reckon that if you find you are not fitting in with a social environment that is ingrained in a work culture, such as the military, you either pretend to be something you are not or you find a new environment where you can be yourself.

[davisgang90]

I'm active duty Navy Officer (Captain).  Nords advice is sound as always.  Your husband doesn't have to do what other officers say.  Peer pressure can be a challenge, but a lot of the ribbing over beater cars and such is just good-natured and should be taken with a grain of salt.

[mm1970]

Hey hey hey-- in the submarine force it's routine to become an Engineer at eight years of service-- before your 30th birthday.  And if you're a real eager beaver willing to skip shore duty, or if the incumbent Eng happens to break a leg, then it's possible to become an Eng at just over four years of service... as soon as Naval Reactors says you've passed the Engineer's Exam.  And, yes, we had one of each of those happen during my JO tour.  Luckily I managed to remain an "innocent bystander" for almost all of it. 

When I said "it's not like he's young" I was picturing someone at 23/24/25, just in the Navy.

Okay, this is how I know I'm old.  I worked at NR.  I graded the Engineer's exams.  And I kinda remember thinking these guys were old, but I was 24 at the time.  I'm not saying 30 is old!  I remember thinking the PCO's were, like, ancient.  And now my friends are CO's.  So...doesn't feel so old now.

I'll shut up now. :)

[Nords]

I graded the Engineer's exams.

I'm so sorry that you had to not only read all of that stuff but grade it as well.  I still have the occasional nightmares about trying to answer the question on unisolable feed line ruptures.

I know that I passed, but nobody would ever discuss my score or my technical rating.  I'm sure it must have been to avoid inflating our egos, because I'm pretty certain that mine couldn't have been more deflated.

Has the statute of limitations expired on reviewing our records, or should we file a FOIA request?

[mm1970]

I graded the Engineer's exams.

I'm so sorry that you had to not only read all of that stuff but grade it as well.  I still have the occasional nightmares about trying to answer the question on unisolable feed line ruptures.

I know that I passed, but nobody would ever discuss my score or my technical rating.  I'm sure it must have been to avoid inflating our egos, because I'm pretty certain that mine couldn't have been more deflated.

Has the statute of limitations expired on reviewing our records, or should we file a FOIA request?

:)

Luckily I only graded the chem/radcon questions.

[Boz86]

I remember thinking the PCO's were, like, ancient.  And now my friends are CO's.  So...doesn't feel so old now.

I'll shut up now. :)

I used to think the Ensigns were looking really young. Now the LCDRs look young.

To the OP, what these guys said is spot on. I'm a retired Navy O-6 and have seen the gamut. Officers with brand new, high end Volvos balanced by a CO who drove a 15 year old Renault (I believe that was the make) with a faded paint job and a distinct oil leak. We knew it was his car because the stain wasn't there when he took command.

Another guy I know kept the house he'd bought as a LTJG for 25+ years and always moved back into it when he returned to that area.

When we were LTs and (dating myself) PCs were just spreading through the fleet, we'd make spreadsheets to track our brokerage accounts.

There's a group out there that gets it. There will be a group that shifts somewhat to the middle. There will be a group that never gets it.

[Nords]

Luckily I only graded the chem/radcon questions.

I count my two visits to NR as two of my life's top three most stressful experiences... my daughter is now working through the NR question bank to get ready for her own interview in a couple months. 

When we were LTs and (dating myself) PCs were just spreading through the fleet, we'd make spreadsheets to track our brokerage accounts.

Whew.  Glad I'm not the only one!

[Jwesleym]

A lot of O-Gangers around here. 

MicroRN, you may be able to find a friend with his EDMC.  We are usually the type of people that will interject common sense where it is lacking.  Sometimes it is nice to have someone at work with a different perspective about things.  His EDMC should be the guy that he interacts with the most on the boat.  But, if he constantly complains about his EDMC, then nevermind - YMMV. 

Also, the way the Navy throws money at Nuke Sub Engineers, you should have no problem with your 10 year plan.

[AllChoptUp]

Oh boy what a fun thread!

Commander, Supply Corps here and HouseCom Disbo.  Spouse is retired SWO and spec forces guy.  You want to see peer pressure to live large and drive the biggest truck on the block?  Check out any special operations command.  The operators are paid enormous bonuses (not us, by the way) and testosterone levels are off the charts.  You can fight the culture and go your own way, though, never fear.

Listen to everything Nords tells you and read all his stuff.  Your hubs should find common ground with him and it's easier to follow someone's advice that you can identify with.  (I was sure your husband was an aviator until I saw the word "boat"...ha)

I was able to rein in my Sweet Thang through laying out our Grand Retirement Plan, and he dealt with peer pressure by telling the guys that Suppo wouldn't go for the new truck/trip to Vegas/gambling/yaddayadda.  He got a little pushback but mostly a lot of "whaddya gonna do?  Happy wife happy life, right?"  It gave him top cover and he always found other officers of like mind to go on liberty with.  Guarantee there are others on his boat that don't want to conform to the command's spendy culture. 

You are doing great MicroRN!  Ask any questions, there seem to be plenty of military mentors standing by to help.

[AlanStache]

What if you calculated your net worth at the end of his current contract given different spending levels?  Could a big number catch his eye and along with all the other great comments here get some buy in?