Expectations for visiting guests w/ pets (multiple overnight stay)

[jeromedawg]

Hi all,

Just wanted to get some general feedback and opinions (as in "what would you do" or "how would you react") on the topic of expectations for guests w/ pets who you are housing for multiple days. My brother, SIL, their two kids and their dog just stayed with us and the dog repeatedly marked at least half a dozen times in areas of our house. They of course asked if it would be OK for them to bring the dog and the expectation was that he should be housebroken. My SIL did say that he *may* have accidents out of excitement (and this did happen at least once) but that it's rare/not often. She never cautioned or warned us that he would mark though. We obliged, setting one major house rule that he absolutely cannot go upstairs (our staircase and everywhere upstairs except the bathrooms, is carpeted - downstairs is tile). Apparently at home, he sleeps *with* my brother and SIL in their room - so they opted to sleep downstairs in our empty living room area as opposed to just leaving him in the crate downstairs and sleeping in one of our vacant bedrooms). The dog is a rescue dog (Chihuahua mix) that was originally found in or near an abandoned homeless encampment somewhere in the Bay Area - he's a very mellow dog but quite timid and scares VERY easily. He's greatly attached to my SIL who was the first person to pick him up and bond with him. The dog is *SPOILED* as well - they baby him like crazy and don't seem to make any real efforts to train him (he doesn't understand "sit", can't "shake", etc those mentioned I think would be very very basic ones that all dogs should know). He won't really listen to anyone except my SIL and is slightly afraid of anyone else (including my brother and nephews) when they pick him up. They will often hand feed him human food (I'm actually guilty of enabling this) and he refuses to chew or gnaw on bones - I actually had an oxtail bone I tried to give to him that he refused. After I put some pieces of fat on it, he reluctantly came over then after a few minutes he started gnawing at it like a normal dog. He's definitely *not* a normal dog hahaha.
 
Also, we went to Disneyland one day and they decided to leave him with a sitter via Rover which turned out to be a mistake - towards the end of the day, while on the sitters' watch, the dog bolted out of their front door (the daughter was taking the trash out) and ran off... fortunately, a good Samaritan neighbor found him at the park nearby the sitter's house and they were able to get him back. This was originally supposed to be a 2 night stay for the dog at the sitter's but my brother cut it short as that trust was broken, and he asked us to pick the dog up (it was a bit of an inconvenience but we needed to leave the park anyway since our kids were tired and one had school the next day) since they wanted to stay at the park lol.

Anyway, I caught the dog in the act of marking or peeing at least 3 times while here and shouted "no" at him but there was no reinforcement from his owners about this. There were also a few more times where we found old/dried up pee presumably from times nobody was watching but the dog was wandering around downstairs. Fortunately, we don't have any furniture so we he was marking stray items that were left on the floor in places (like a reusable grocery bag, another disposable shopping bag which had items in it that we bought recently - fortunately he only got the outside of the bag, etc)

My brother's family just left earlier this AM and as I was cleaning up, a couple more spots were found. I texted them to call it out but am wondering if at that point it just sounds like complaining or if we're in our right and if we should be pointing every spot he peed at out (for their information more so).

We've dog sat for my wife's cousin a few times and it was never this bad (that dog was really good and very well-trained although it was a female too but she knew how to respond to multiple commands, could learn new commands and tricks easily, knew "go home" and was pee-pad trained). I would understand one or two accidents sure but this dog averaged 1-2 times PER day over the course of the 4-5 days they've been here! Am I in the wrong? Should I *expect* this many accidents while having guests with pets? I feel like it would be different if they were well-aware of his tendencies (basically that he's a borderline special needs dog), warned us about them and we still decided to allow them to visit with the dog. I realize not all dogs are the same but I'm a bit baffled on the topic of bringing your pets over to other peoples' homes and having common courtesy. I'm thinking this is the first time they've traveled with him AND stayed outside of their house multiple days so I guess it's a learning experience for all of us, to say the least...

My wife is so glad that she made upstairs off-limits to this dog. Had we not, there would likely be urine all over our carpet upstairs. It probably doesn't help that the previous owner had a dog - *perhaps* this dog was sniffing that out too and went into default-aggression mode per marking territory.

[ixtap]

It doesn't sound like the dog ruined anything, so I am not sure where etiquette comes in? Are you wondering what to do about future visits? How often do they usually visit?

Certainly no reason to text them about every spot unless you are expecting them to pay for some kind of special cleaning or replace your grocery bag.

[jeromedawg]

It doesn't sound like the dog ruined anything, so I am not sure where etiquette comes in? Are you wondering what to do about future visits? How often do they usually visit?

Certainly no reason to text them about every spot unless you are expecting them to pay for some kind of special cleaning or replace your grocery bag.

The point isn't to get them to pay for or replace things that the dog peed on. I would think it would be in the owners' best interest to understand the behavior of their dog(s) especially in new situations. If I brought a dog over to someone's home myself, I would certainly want to know if they peed on their floors, especially in unexpected and random locations. I wouldn't just shrug it off as "no big deal" either and would take this into consideration to at least try to curb, control and or prevent it from happening in the future whether it's in my own house or somebody else's (https://midogguide.com/maintenance-and-care/how-do-i-keep-my-dog-from-marking-in-someone-elses-house.html). Of course if we actually had furniture or let the dog upstairs *assuming* he was fully housebroken and trained but the same things happened but on new furniture and carpet, then we'd be a lot more upset. So the etiquette piece is more around how your guests with dogs respond and address the situation (of a dog urinating your house) regardless of where they did it or what they did it on...
In the future, we will probably say "no" to having them bring the dog but it would be nice to 'raise awareness' - I find people will look for excuses for their dogs behaving badly (similar to parents who excuse the bad behavior of their children - e.g. there's a kid in my daughter's preschool class who has a reputation for hitting and not keeping his hands off other kids. My wife was telling me that the mother was making all sorts of excuses like "oh he's just too smart for this class and is just exploring ways to express himself outside of the bounds of the class" - so I guess it's OK for your kid to go up to other kids and touch and hit them just because he's too smart and needs to express himself? lol....smh) so perhaps there's simply no hope...

As far as how often they visit, we just moved in and this is the first time they've visited. We had my parents and another nephew in the week before. I would say, as COVID becomes less prevalent, the visits may end up being once every year or two but I wouldn't expect super frequent visits. Either way, it's already enough hosting messy humans - adding a not-fully-trained or housebroken dog to the mix just adds another layer to it all.

[BikeFanatic]

next time ask them to bring a play pen, then use wee wee pads to line the playpen, when dog is unsupervised stays in the playpen.
My chihuahuas are similar peeing when they get to a new place. They are limited with a gate or playpen otherwise they pee everywhere.

[jeromedawg]

next time ask them to bring a play pen, then use wee wee pads to line the playpen, when dog is unsupervised stays in the playpen.
My chihuahuas are similar peeing when they get to a new place. They are limited with a gate or playpen otherwise they pee everywhere.

We actually do have a child playpen and I was contemplating setting it up but we would have had to rearrange another area of the house for that (normally we would just have allocated the living room for something like that but my brother/SIL wanted to sleep down there *with* the dog. In hindsight, I should have just sucked it up and set the thing up. But then my brother and SIL still probably would have felt bad that he's contained in a limited area and can't hang out with everyone and proceed to take him out of the pen and let him wander lol... I think it was hard enough for them to use a crate (they just have him in a dog bed at home). If there are absolutely no options for the dog to stay anywhere else and they have to bring him with them again, we'll definitely be using the play pen.

[SweatingInAR]

It's too late now to do anything, but here is what I have done to protect my host's stuff from my dog on various occasions:

• Diapers. Sometimes referred to as "wraps" or "belly bands" for male dogs.
• crated
• confined to the back patio, where everything can be hosed off (for short visits in temperate climates)
• Exercise the dog outside a lot
• The playpen is a great idea. I've used those to house newly-rescued yorkies.

I even use the diapers in my own house if I have to leave him alone for longer than usual. He hates to be alone, and gets particularly pissed off for the week after a person or dog-friend leaves.

[GreenSheep]

If I were the guest with a dog having accidents, I'd be appalled and mortified. I'd clean up everything (and return to clean spots found later, if I lived within any reasonable distance), replace anything damaged, and either not take the dog back to that home or come up with a rock solid plan to avoid further accidents if I did return with the dog. I have two dogs, and one of my biggest concerns when I take them anywhere is not doing anything that would contribute to a dog-friendly store changing its rules, a person learning to dislike/be afraid of dogs, etc. I want them to be good ambassadors for their species so dogs will continue to be invited into various public (and private) places.

I don't think there's anything wrong with corralling a small dog in a space the size of playpen for reasonable periods of time. (Or even a large dog who is crate-trained. But I wouldn't go for more than 4 hours without a potty/play break.) An anxious dog like the one you describe might actually prefer to have a snug, safe space, maybe with a t-shirt his/her favorite person has worn, a couple of toys, something to chew, some soft music, etc.

Dogs go through a socialization period early in life, and if that window is missed, they often end up with problems -- separation anxiety, fear of people, fear of other dogs, fear of various noises, not knowing how to "dog" in some ways (chewing, playing, etc.). That might have happened to the dog in question here. And I wouldn't put too much weight on this dog not doing things like sitting when you ask, taking a bone from you, etc. Some dogs are just too overwhelmed by new people. (Edited to add:  Socialization doesn't just mean literally socializing with people and dogs. It means getting used to anything and everything in the human world -- noises, different surfaces under the feet, different types of buildings/vehicles, all sorts of smells, and yes, all the different shapes and sizes of people, dogs, and other animals.)

And although this probably doesn't apply to this dog... just so you don't go around judging other people's dogs :-)... some dogs are trained not to take things from anyone but their owner or do anything another person asks of them. My younger dog only responds when you say "Name, command," so if you don't know her name, or that you're supposed to say her name before each command, you can't get her to do anything. In her training class, we even take turns pulling on each other's dogs' leashes while they're in a sit-stay or a down-stay, and they learn not to get up unless and until their owner gives them the release word. I'd never leave her sitting outside a store like some people do, but it's nice to know that in case of emergency, I can put her on a stay while I run and grab something, help someone, etc.

Sorry... dog lover tangent. Just trying to advocate for the super-well-trained dogs who might not always seem well-trained because part of their training is NOT to do something when just anyone tells them to.

[Villanelle]

I don't think you are going to "bring awareness" any more than you already have, so if you aren't asking for damages or anything specific, I would just let it drop. You've made the point that the dog pees in the house.  Continuing seems petty, to me.   Next time, tell them "it didn't really work very well with the dog last time so as much as we'd love to have you an the kids, you'll need to make other arrangements for Fido."  alternatively, if you are willing you could say that he can only stay if he is crated/penned to a specific area.

[SunnyDays]

In my mind, the issue is less the dog’s behaviour and more the owners’ reaction to it.  The fact that they didn’t seem concerned about it repeatedly peeing on your property tells me they don’t respect you.

Dogs do all kinds of unexpected stuff in unfamiliar places, which owners should anticipate happening, be on the look out for, address with the dog and repair the damage.  Anything less is irresponsible ownership.

If you decide to allow them to bring the dog again in future, and I don’t think anyone would blame you if you didn’t, you need to lay out the rules before they even get there, and if they aren’t willing to abide by them, they should stay somewhere else.

I’m a dog owner and would never consider such behaviour acceptable.

[GreenSheep]

In my mind, the issue is less the dog’s behaviour and more the owners’ reaction to it.  The fact that they didn’t seem concerned about it repeatedly peeing on your property tells me they don’t respect you.

Dogs do all kinds of unexpected stuff in unfamiliar places, which owners should anticipate happening, be on the look out for, address with the dog and repair the damage.  Anything less is irresponsible ownership.

If you decide to allow them to bring the dog again in future, and I don’t think anyone would blame you if you didn’t, you need to lay out the rules before they even get there, and if they aren’t willing to abide by them, they should stay somewhere else.

I’m a dog owner and would never consider such behaviour acceptable.

Completely agree.

[Sibley]

I wouldn't allow the dog over again, regardless of supervision, confinement, etc. Simple as that. If the humans don't like it, then that tells you something about the humans. I also would be really careful before allowing any animal belonging to those humans in my house.

Now, if you were talking about a couple of excited pees, where the owners immediately cleaned it up and apologized, that's different. That I get, and am not going to be too concerned. But that's not what happened.

[PoutineLover]

I think it's pretty rude of the humans not to care that their dog is peeing all over your house. I have a puppy and he is mostly trained - at our house he uses pee pads or goes outside, but he still occasionally has accidents. At other people's houses, I always ask first if we can bring him, and I warn them that he's likely to have accidents because it's out of his routine. I try to keep him in sight as much as possible and clean up right away when I notice an accident. He's getting better with time but new environments are always more difficult. I would hope that if someone wasn't okay with that they could tell me so I could make other arrangements if needed.

[Cassie]

It’s not unusual for rescue dogs to mark. I have used belly bands with a pad inside so if they mark the pee is contained. I would insist that they use them.

[ToTheMoon]

I wouldn't allow the dog over again, regardless of supervision, confinement, etc. Simple as that. If the humans don't like it, then that tells you something about the humans. I also would be really careful before allowing any animal belonging to those humans in my house.

Now, if you were talking about a couple of excited pees, where the owners immediately cleaned it up and apologized, that's different. That I get, and am not going to be too concerned. But that's not what happened.

I agree with @Sibley.

Excited dribbles and marking are NOT the same thing and I would be horrified if my dog marked in someone's home, and I would be livid if a dog owner allowed their dog to mark more-than-once without immediately addressing it.

For now, I would leave the issue alone with the OP's guests, but if they would NOT be staying in my home with that pet (or frankly any other if that is the level of respect they have for your space.)

[former player]

I wouldn't allow the dog over again, regardless of supervision, confinement, etc. Simple as that. If the humans don't like it, then that tells you something about the humans. I also would be really careful before allowing any animal belonging to those humans in my house.

Now, if you were talking about a couple of excited pees, where the owners immediately cleaned it up and apologized, that's different. That I get, and am not going to be too concerned. But that's not what happened.

I agree with this. 

You have put so much work into this house, getting it clean and livable from the state it was in when you bought it, that then having this dog peeing all over must have been especially aggravating. I think it would be entirely reasonable for you to say to any guests in the future "we'd love you to stay, but we've had a bad experience with a guest bringiing their pet and really don't want to risk any more damage in the house so please find a sitter or kennels/cattery for your pet instead of bringing it with you".

[jeromedawg]

I wouldn't allow the dog over again, regardless of supervision, confinement, etc. Simple as that. If the humans don't like it, then that tells you something about the humans. I also would be really careful before allowing any animal belonging to those humans in my house.

Now, if you were talking about a couple of excited pees, where the owners immediately cleaned it up and apologized, that's different. That I get, and am not going to be too concerned. But that's not what happened.

I agree with this. 

You have put so much work into this house, getting it clean and livable from the state it was in when you bought it, that then having this dog peeing all over must have been especially aggravating. I think it would be entirely reasonable for you to say to any guests in the future "we'd love you to stay, but we've had a bad experience with a guest bringiing their pet and really don't want to risk any more damage in the house so please find a sitter or kennels/cattery for your pet instead of bringing it with you".

LOL you just triggered flashbacks of dead rat carcasses and discovery of the massive nest :(

As far as the nonchalant attitude, it's more so my SIL (who would have the closest bond to the dog) with that attitude. Naturally, my brother and his family are a messy bunch and not the most hygienic either. But this shouldn't excuse them from shrugging things of that nature off when staying with a host who is a family member especially. My brother has been more apologetic about the whole thing but my SIL seems to be writing it off, excusing it, and trying to find reasons why the dog would have done all that and subsequently acting confused about it (e.g. "hm that's weird, I wonder what is triggering him to mark..."). Also if there ever was an accident, my brother was the one cleaning it up (well, if he was around...otherwise it was me) - she appears to be very hands-off with the actual clean-up of the dog despite her being the one in the family to push for getting it (and also bonding first). She appears to be reaping the rewards and enabling but offshoring the less-desirable work of owning a dog to my brother (and perhaps my nephews...although I didn't really see them helping clean up either). She tends to spoil her kids and I'm pretty sure this translates to  the dog even more so. She spoils the dog AND excuses it for 'misbehavior' - I think she justifies this by the fact that it's a rescue dog: "poor dog, he has had a rough life. let's just let him do whatever he wants and be free"

In any case, the more I think about it and read through the responses here the more I'm inclined just to say "no" next time. Honestly, I'd be surprised if they asked again. Per the recommendations above, the added conditions I'd require if there were absolutely no other alternatives for whatever reason would be the belly band/diaper + designated play-pen area. There's absolutely no way I'm going to let that dog into our house again on a free roam basis, no matter how "chill" he is.

[NorthernIkigai]

I think you need to let this go, and just consider it a learning experience. Whether your SIL spoils the dog or not, and whether it is she or your brother cleaning up after it, if it’s unfair that she was the one who wanted it, etc. is all not your problem anymore when you don’t let the dog stay at your place anymore.

[Cassie]

I have been rescuing dogs for 20 years and have had various degrees of success in training. Depending on the abuse and length of time you rescue knowing there’s issues. You have to use positive reinforcement only because of all the neglect and or abuse. Little dogs are much harder to train and once they mark they won’t stop. If people are diligent with the belly bands with a pad inside and taking the dog out consistently to potty there shouldn’t be problems. Frankly I can’t imagine not knowing that your dog is a marker and not planning for it. I can guarantee that the dog is also marking in it’s home.

[FINate]

In any case, the more I think about it and read through the responses here the more I'm inclined just to say "no" next time. Honestly, I'd be surprised if they asked again. Per the recommendations above, the added conditions I'd require if there were absolutely no other alternatives for whatever reason would be the belly band/diaper + designated play-pen area. There's absolutely no way I'm going to let that dog into our house again on a free roam basis, no matter how "chill" he is.

Just a simple and polite "no" is your best bet. If you give them a "no, unless there are not other alternatives" option don't be surprised if nothing else works, because who wants to pay for kenneling or a dog sitter. Besides, based on their most recent behavior why would you assume they would actually keep a belly band/diaper on or in a play-pen area?

It's your home, you don't have to host anyone or any pets if you don't want to.

[SunnyDays]

People “spoil” their kids/dogs etc not because they love them or don’t want to hurt them, but because they don’t want to do the work involved in teaching/disciplining.   Saying “aw, poor thing,” sounds better than saying “I’m too lazy.”  That is the bottom line.

[Cassie]

Sunny, I would agree if they had gotten the dog as a puppy. But obviously you have never rescued damaged dogs which come with lots of baggage.

[former player]

Sunny, I would agree if they had gotten the dog as a puppy. But obviously you have never rescued damaged dogs which come with lots of baggage.

I've only had rescues: I think the point is that you have to work even harder with training in the hope that they will be able to conform to expected standards at some point and in the knowledge that you have to work even harder in the meantime to prevent them from being a nuisance.

Training a dog takes self-awareness (because the dog reacts to your unconcious cues as well as your conscious ones) and self-discipline (so that your own behaviours always, consistently, reinforce the behaviours you want from the dog).

[SunnyDays]

Sunny, I would agree if they had gotten the dog as a puppy. But obviously you have never rescued damaged dogs which come with lots of baggage.

I've only had rescues: I think the point is that you have to work even harder with training in the hope that they will be able to conform to expected standards at some point and in the knowledge that you have to work even harder in the meantime to prevent them from being a nuisance.

Training a dog takes self-awareness (because the dog reacts to your unconcious cues as well as your conscious ones) and self-discipline (so that your own behaviours always, consistently, reinforce the behaviours you want from the dog).

Yes, exactly.  No dog behaves perfectly all the time, but consistently refusing to address it’s behaviour says more about the owner than the dog.  I’ve only had rescues as well, luckily not terribly damaged ones.  I will never hold a dog’s behaviour against it, as long as the owner is trying their best by it and/or getting help when they know they’re in over their heads.  But many don’t, instead giving excuses for it.  That is the lazy part.

[Villanelle]

Sunny, I would agree if they had gotten the dog as a puppy. But obviously you have never rescued damaged dogs which come with lots of baggage.

I've only had rescues: I think the point is that you have to work even harder with training in the hope that they will be able to conform to expected standards at some point and in the knowledge that you have to work even harder in the meantime to prevent them from being a nuisance.

Training a dog takes self-awareness (because the dog reacts to your unconcious cues as well as your conscious ones) and self-discipline (so that your own behaviours always, consistently, reinforce the behaviours you want from the dog).

Yes, exactly.  No dog behaves perfectly all the time, but consistently refusing to address it’s behaviour says more about the owner than the dog.  I’ve only had rescues as well, luckily not terribly damaged ones.  I will never hold a dog’s behaviour against it, as long as the owner is trying their best by it and/or getting help when they know they’re in over their heads.  But many don’t, instead giving excuses for it.  That is the lazy part.

Fully agree with this.  I am less than a month into our foster-fail adoptions.  (It's been about 6 weeks total they have been with us if you count the foster time.) These are two 10 year old dogs so they are very set in their ways and have bad habits from a previous family that seemingly didn't do much for them beyond feed them.  They weren't neglected, per se, but they weren't exactly enriched and well-trained, either. 

If I didn't have the time, patience, and motivation to give them what they need to be decent citizens, I shouldn't and wouldn't have adopted them.  When I did, I made a commitment to them.  Now, Doggo1 is probably always going to be reactive to other dogs, but we are working to get it to a point where at least she isn't a total asshole.  (She's not aggressive.  As far as we can tell, she is just out of her mind excited, but we haven't tested it by letting her loose with any other dogs.  She barks, bucks--on her leash--like a wild bronco, and generally is so over-stimulated that she can't be calmed, even with super high value treats.  But the tail is wagging and it seem playful, as far as we can tell. But again, we are working hard on it, and will probably continue to work on it for the rest of her life.  We owe that to her, because we made a commitment to her.  And because we know how she is we will not knowingly put her in situations where she is set up for failure.  So we would never bring her as a houseguest to any home with other dogs, unless there was no other option and in that case--which would need to be some kind of emergency--we'd confine her to her room, not leave the house, etc.   If we knew our dog was a marker, we would bring her to someone's home, and if for some reason we did, we'd stay with her, put down puppy pads, pen her, etc.  And I would be mortified if they marked, and would apologize profusely and clean it up ASAP. 

I am guessing the SIL's excuses in this case might stem somewhat from embarrassment, maybe?  Like, it's easy to say, "Gosh!  I don't know what happened" then it is to own up to the fact that your dog has some behavior issues, and even more so that you aren't really addressing those issues.  Because another thing I'd do is be very up front.  "Look Doggo1 has some issues with other dogs.  We are working on it, but it is a work in progress and if she is in the yard and sees a dog, she is going to bark and may need our help to calm down and shut up.  Even if she's in the house and hears barking, she may bark. We are doing our best, but it's not solved yet and may be worse in another house where she is less relaxed.  If this is an issue, let us know and we won't bring her, and please know we will do everything to keep her as chill and quiet as we can."  That seems like what a decent, considerate house guest does. 

[jeromedawg]

Sunny, I would agree if they had gotten the dog as a puppy. But obviously you have never rescued damaged dogs which come with lots of baggage.

I've only had rescues: I think the point is that you have to work even harder with training in the hope that they will be able to conform to expected standards at some point and in the knowledge that you have to work even harder in the meantime to prevent them from being a nuisance.

Training a dog takes self-awareness (because the dog reacts to your unconcious cues as well as your conscious ones) and self-discipline (so that your own behaviours always, consistently, reinforce the behaviours you want from the dog).

Yes, exactly.  No dog behaves perfectly all the time, but consistently refusing to address it’s behaviour says more about the owner than the dog.  I’ve only had rescues as well, luckily not terribly damaged ones.  I will never hold a dog’s behaviour against it, as long as the owner is trying their best by it and/or getting help when they know they’re in over their heads.  But many don’t, instead giving excuses for it.  That is the lazy part.

Fully agree with this.  I am less than a month into our foster-fail adoptions.  (It's been about 6 weeks total they have been with us if you count the foster time.) These are two 10 year old dogs so they are very set in their ways and have bad habits from a previous family that seemingly didn't do much for them beyond feed them.  They weren't neglected, per se, but they weren't exactly enriched and well-trained, either. 

If I didn't have the time, patience, and motivation to give them what they need to be decent citizens, I shouldn't and wouldn't have adopted them.  When I did, I made a commitment to them.  Now, Doggo1 is probably always going to be reactive to other dogs, but we are working to get it to a point where at least she isn't a total asshole.  (She's not aggressive.  As far as we can tell, she is just out of her mind excited, but we haven't tested it by letting her loose with any other dogs.  She barks, bucks--on her leash--like a wild bronco, and generally is so over-stimulated that she can't be calmed, even with super high value treats.  But the tail is wagging and it seem playful, as far as we can tell. But again, we are working hard on it, and will probably continue to work on it for the rest of her life.  We owe that to her, because we made a commitment to her.  And because we know how she is we will not knowingly put her in situations where she is set up for failure.  So we would never bring her as a houseguest to any home with other dogs, unless there was no other option and in that case--which would need to be some kind of emergency--we'd confine her to her room, not leave the house, etc.   If we knew our dog was a marker, we would bring her to someone's home, and if for some reason we did, we'd stay with her, put down puppy pads, pen her, etc.  And I would be mortified if they marked, and would apologize profusely and clean it up ASAP. 

I am guessing the SIL's excuses in this case might stem somewhat from embarrassment, maybe?  Like, it's easy to say, "Gosh!  I don't know what happened" then it is to own up to the fact that your dog has some behavior issues, and even more so that you aren't really addressing those issues.  Because another thing I'd do is be very up front.  "Look Doggo1 has some issues with other dogs.  We are working on it, but it is a work in progress and if she is in the yard and sees a dog, she is going to bark and may need our help to calm down and shut up.  Even if she's in the house and hears barking, she may bark. We are doing our best, but it's not solved yet and may be worse in another house where she is less relaxed.  If this is an issue, let us know and we won't bring her, and please know we will do everything to keep her as chill and quiet as we can."  That seems like what a decent, considerate house guest does.

Great perspective and details on a recent experience. My SIL had a dog before and he was crazy (btw: my mom said, in front of my brother, that their dog is a 'crazy dog' in a half-joking way. My brother took it way too seriously and got upset, saying that if my SIL heard my mom say something like that, she'd immediately go outside and not come back in for a long time...not sure how true that is but given how much she babies this dog, I could see it happening) so she has *some* experience. That dog was a loud barking and super irritating male Pomeranian - I guess the thing with small male dogs is that many of them have a Napoleon complex. But I remember them spoiling that dog too and I don't think they really trained him either.
As a side: My aunt and uncle got a dog years ago as well (he is some kind of terrier poodle mix IIRC) and I can't recall if he was a rescue or not but that dog was horrible - he was super aggressive with other dogs and would also try to mark (although was a bit more under control in this sense). His main thing was out of control barking and being aggressive with other dogs around. My aunt and uncle and cousins never seemed to train or address that either.
Anyway, I don't even remember the point I was trying to make but I guess it goes back to the point of her making excuses - that could be a possibility with being embarrassed. Maybe embarrassed and confused because she never observed this kind of behavior before? This same dog actually went #2 in my parents living room during Christmas while we were visiting. My brother and SIL were hand-feeding him prime rib and all sorts of other human food and at some point he couldn't take it. I saw him frantically running around the house looking for *something*. My brother/SIL weren't really paying attention or if they were they were confused about what he wanted. Then all of the sudden, he gets into position in the middle of the living room floor and lays a nasty wet one. It was an accident sure, but the owners obviously weren't paying attention and or couldn't read him well. They've had this dog probably since probably early-mid 2021 btw. I think the fact that he is "so chill" masks many of the more subtle behavioral issues and trauma the dog has so instead of trying to learn and understand him, they just spoil and baby him. At some point, I almost feel like this is potentially going to be a point of contention in that family but I won't continue speculating on that...

[Villanelle]

Sunny, I would agree if they had gotten the dog as a puppy. But obviously you have never rescued damaged dogs which come with lots of baggage.

I've only had rescues: I think the point is that you have to work even harder with training in the hope that they will be able to conform to expected standards at some point and in the knowledge that you have to work even harder in the meantime to prevent them from being a nuisance.

Training a dog takes self-awareness (because the dog reacts to your unconcious cues as well as your conscious ones) and self-discipline (so that your own behaviours always, consistently, reinforce the behaviours you want from the dog).

Yes, exactly.  No dog behaves perfectly all the time, but consistently refusing to address it’s behaviour says more about the owner than the dog.  I’ve only had rescues as well, luckily not terribly damaged ones.  I will never hold a dog’s behaviour against it, as long as the owner is trying their best by it and/or getting help when they know they’re in over their heads.  But many don’t, instead giving excuses for it.  That is the lazy part.

Fully agree with this.  I am less than a month into our foster-fail adoptions.  (It's been about 6 weeks total they have been with us if you count the foster time.) These are two 10 year old dogs so they are very set in their ways and have bad habits from a previous family that seemingly didn't do much for them beyond feed them.  They weren't neglected, per se, but they weren't exactly enriched and well-trained, either. 

If I didn't have the time, patience, and motivation to give them what they need to be decent citizens, I shouldn't and wouldn't have adopted them.  When I did, I made a commitment to them.  Now, Doggo1 is probably always going to be reactive to other dogs, but we are working to get it to a point where at least she isn't a total asshole.  (She's not aggressive.  As far as we can tell, she is just out of her mind excited, but we haven't tested it by letting her loose with any other dogs.  She barks, bucks--on her leash--like a wild bronco, and generally is so over-stimulated that she can't be calmed, even with super high value treats.  But the tail is wagging and it seem playful, as far as we can tell. But again, we are working hard on it, and will probably continue to work on it for the rest of her life.  We owe that to her, because we made a commitment to her.  And because we know how she is we will not knowingly put her in situations where she is set up for failure.  So we would never bring her as a houseguest to any home with other dogs, unless there was no other option and in that case--which would need to be some kind of emergency--we'd confine her to her room, not leave the house, etc.   If we knew our dog was a marker, we would bring her to someone's home, and if for some reason we did, we'd stay with her, put down puppy pads, pen her, etc.  And I would be mortified if they marked, and would apologize profusely and clean it up ASAP. 

I am guessing the SIL's excuses in this case might stem somewhat from embarrassment, maybe?  Like, it's easy to say, "Gosh!  I don't know what happened" then it is to own up to the fact that your dog has some behavior issues, and even more so that you aren't really addressing those issues.  Because another thing I'd do is be very up front.  "Look Doggo1 has some issues with other dogs.  We are working on it, but it is a work in progress and if she is in the yard and sees a dog, she is going to bark and may need our help to calm down and shut up.  Even if she's in the house and hears barking, she may bark. We are doing our best, but it's not solved yet and may be worse in another house where she is less relaxed.  If this is an issue, let us know and we won't bring her, and please know we will do everything to keep her as chill and quiet as we can."  That seems like what a decent, considerate house guest does.

Great perspective and details on a recent experience. My SIL had a dog before and he was crazy (btw: my mom said, in front of my brother, that their dog is a 'crazy dog' in a half-joking way. My brother took it way too seriously and got upset, saying that if my SIL heard my mom say something like that, she'd immediately go outside and not come back in for a long time...not sure how true that is but given how much she babies this dog, I could see it happening) so she has *some* experience. That dog was a loud barking and super irritating male Pomeranian - I guess the thing with small male dogs is that many of them have a Napoleon complex. But I remember them spoiling that dog too and I don't think they really trained him either.
As a side: My aunt and uncle got a dog years ago as well (he is some kind of terrier poodle mix IIRC) and I can't recall if he was a rescue or not but that dog was horrible - he was super aggressive with other dogs and would also try to mark (although was a bit more under control in this sense). His main thing was out of control barking and being aggressive with other dogs around. My aunt and uncle and cousins never seemed to train or address that either.
Anyway, I don't even remember the point I was trying to make but I guess it goes back to the point of her making excuses - that could be a possibility with being embarrassed. Maybe embarrassed and confused because she never observed this kind of behavior before? This same dog actually went #2 in my parents living room during Christmas while we were visiting. My brother and SIL were hand-feeding him prime rib and all sorts of other human food and at some point he couldn't take it. I saw him frantically running around the house looking for *something*. My brother/SIL weren't really paying attention or if they were they were confused about what he wanted. Then all of the sudden, he gets into position in the middle of the living room floor and lays a nasty wet one. It was an accident sure, but the owners obviously weren't paying attention and or couldn't read him well. They've had this dog probably since probably early-mid 2021 btw. I think the fact that he is "so chill" masks many of the more subtle behavioral issues and trauma the dog has so instead of trying to learn and understand him, they just spoil and baby him. At some point, I almost feel like this is potentially going to be a point of contention in that family but I won't continue speculating on that...

My opinion on this is that it mostly isn't true.  I think it is an excuse many small dog owners use.  But I think 95% of it is human created.  if you have a 200 pound dog that is inclined to snap at people, bare his teeth, growl, etc.,  you are likely go ing to address the issue ASAP.  And if he bites someone, they are very likely going to report it (and it will do enough damage that they may end up seeking medical care, which may also end up having the dog reported). But if it is a little 7 pounds thing, people laugh and sometimes even call it cute when he growls and acts like a tiny bad-ass.  If he bites, it likely does minor damage so is less likely to be reported.  And as an owner you are less likely to take the behavior seriously and see it as en existential threat to your dog that needs to be corrected ASAP.  So the dog gets less training and continues being a little asshole, where as a giant dog is more likely to have these problems addressed. 

There are a lot of generalizations there, but I think people let small dogs be holy terrors (holy terriers?)  because it feels less scary and can even seem cute to some people. 

And it sounds like your B and SIL shouldn't be pet owners.  Or house guests!

And I do very much understand the pull toward spoiling, especially with a traumatized or otherwise "damaged" dog.  I've got one sleeping by my side right now!  She looks at me with that adorable face and I think, "I could take her with me in the car while I run to the UPS store.  [It's cool out and this errand usually takes less than 2 minutes out of the car.]"  But I know that what is *good* for her is to leave her and her sister home alone, crated, so they learn in small doses, like a >20 minute absence from me, that they are okay home alone and that I will always come back.  So I leave her home, even though I know she'd love to come.  It's not really different than a child.  You make them brush their teeth, even if they don't want to.  You make them take a nap even though they say they want to keep playing.  You take them to the doctor, where they get shots.  People seem to naturally get this with kids, but with pets, somehow the teaching of boundaries and the disciplining falls prey to a wagging tail and big, pleading eyes.  And that's worse for dog and human, in the long run, in many, many ways.

[BlueHouse]

No, don't bother telling them every spot where the dog marked.  That's not helpful and they're either completely embarrassed or they don't care.  I tend to think people who are embarrassed (but still love their animals) act in strange ways...like they just don't know any better. 

I'd send a message saying how much you love their company and you love their dog as well, and you know how important their dog is to them and commend them for rescuing it -- AND -- for it's own good and so that your brother and SIL can travel worry free, they should start crate-training.  Tell them the advantages both to the pet's safety and for the peace of mind when leaving him somewhere. 

Also, I'm sorry I just skimmed through this topic, but it sounds as if the downstairs of your home is empty and just tiled?  That may be confusing to a dog.  The only time my dog has ever peed somewhere other than outside was in a hotel lobby.  I think he just thought we got out of the elevator, walked down a hallway, and probably thought we were outside?  I walk him so regularly, it couldn't have been too long between pees....still, it was a surprise to me and he looked so hurt when I yelled "no" and hustled him outside. 

[jeromedawg]

Sunny, I would agree if they had gotten the dog as a puppy. But obviously you have never rescued damaged dogs which come with lots of baggage.

I've only had rescues: I think the point is that you have to work even harder with training in the hope that they will be able to conform to expected standards at some point and in the knowledge that you have to work even harder in the meantime to prevent them from being a nuisance.

Training a dog takes self-awareness (because the dog reacts to your unconcious cues as well as your conscious ones) and self-discipline (so that your own behaviours always, consistently, reinforce the behaviours you want from the dog).

Yes, exactly.  No dog behaves perfectly all the time, but consistently refusing to address it’s behaviour says more about the owner than the dog.  I’ve only had rescues as well, luckily not terribly damaged ones.  I will never hold a dog’s behaviour against it, as long as the owner is trying their best by it and/or getting help when they know they’re in over their heads.  But many don’t, instead giving excuses for it.  That is the lazy part.

Fully agree with this.  I am less than a month into our foster-fail adoptions.  (It's been about 6 weeks total they have been with us if you count the foster time.) These are two 10 year old dogs so they are very set in their ways and have bad habits from a previous family that seemingly didn't do much for them beyond feed them.  They weren't neglected, per se, but they weren't exactly enriched and well-trained, either. 

If I didn't have the time, patience, and motivation to give them what they need to be decent citizens, I shouldn't and wouldn't have adopted them.  When I did, I made a commitment to them.  Now, Doggo1 is probably always going to be reactive to other dogs, but we are working to get it to a point where at least she isn't a total asshole.  (She's not aggressive.  As far as we can tell, she is just out of her mind excited, but we haven't tested it by letting her loose with any other dogs.  She barks, bucks--on her leash--like a wild bronco, and generally is so over-stimulated that she can't be calmed, even with super high value treats.  But the tail is wagging and it seem playful, as far as we can tell. But again, we are working hard on it, and will probably continue to work on it for the rest of her life.  We owe that to her, because we made a commitment to her.  And because we know how she is we will not knowingly put her in situations where she is set up for failure.  So we would never bring her as a houseguest to any home with other dogs, unless there was no other option and in that case--which would need to be some kind of emergency--we'd confine her to her room, not leave the house, etc.   If we knew our dog was a marker, we would bring her to someone's home, and if for some reason we did, we'd stay with her, put down puppy pads, pen her, etc.  And I would be mortified if they marked, and would apologize profusely and clean it up ASAP. 

I am guessing the SIL's excuses in this case might stem somewhat from embarrassment, maybe?  Like, it's easy to say, "Gosh!  I don't know what happened" then it is to own up to the fact that your dog has some behavior issues, and even more so that you aren't really addressing those issues.  Because another thing I'd do is be very up front.  "Look Doggo1 has some issues with other dogs.  We are working on it, but it is a work in progress and if she is in the yard and sees a dog, she is going to bark and may need our help to calm down and shut up.  Even if she's in the house and hears barking, she may bark. We are doing our best, but it's not solved yet and may be worse in another house where she is less relaxed.  If this is an issue, let us know and we won't bring her, and please know we will do everything to keep her as chill and quiet as we can."  That seems like what a decent, considerate house guest does.

Great perspective and details on a recent experience. My SIL had a dog before and he was crazy (btw: my mom said, in front of my brother, that their dog is a 'crazy dog' in a half-joking way. My brother took it way too seriously and got upset, saying that if my SIL heard my mom say something like that, she'd immediately go outside and not come back in for a long time...not sure how true that is but given how much she babies this dog, I could see it happening) so she has *some* experience. That dog was a loud barking and super irritating male Pomeranian - I guess the thing with small male dogs is that many of them have a Napoleon complex. But I remember them spoiling that dog too and I don't think they really trained him either.
As a side: My aunt and uncle got a dog years ago as well (he is some kind of terrier poodle mix IIRC) and I can't recall if he was a rescue or not but that dog was horrible - he was super aggressive with other dogs and would also try to mark (although was a bit more under control in this sense). His main thing was out of control barking and being aggressive with other dogs around. My aunt and uncle and cousins never seemed to train or address that either.
Anyway, I don't even remember the point I was trying to make but I guess it goes back to the point of her making excuses - that could be a possibility with being embarrassed. Maybe embarrassed and confused because she never observed this kind of behavior before? This same dog actually went #2 in my parents living room during Christmas while we were visiting. My brother and SIL were hand-feeding him prime rib and all sorts of other human food and at some point he couldn't take it. I saw him frantically running around the house looking for *something*. My brother/SIL weren't really paying attention or if they were they were confused about what he wanted. Then all of the sudden, he gets into position in the middle of the living room floor and lays a nasty wet one. It was an accident sure, but the owners obviously weren't paying attention and or couldn't read him well. They've had this dog probably since probably early-mid 2021 btw. I think the fact that he is "so chill" masks many of the more subtle behavioral issues and trauma the dog has so instead of trying to learn and understand him, they just spoil and baby him. At some point, I almost feel like this is potentially going to be a point of contention in that family but I won't continue speculating on that...

My opinion on this is that it mostly isn't true.  I think it is an excuse many small dog owners use.  But I think 95% of it is human created.  if you have a 200 pound dog that is inclined to snap at people, bare his teeth, growl, etc.,  you are likely go ing to address the issue ASAP.  And if he bites someone, they are very likely going to report it (and it will do enough damage that they may end up seeking medical care, which may also end up having the dog reported). But if it is a little 7 pounds thing, people laugh and sometimes even call it cute when he growls and acts like a tiny bad-ass.  If he bites, it likely does minor damage so is less likely to be reported.  And as an owner you are less likely to take the behavior seriously and see it as en existential threat to your dog that needs to be corrected ASAP.  So the dog gets less training and continues being a little asshole, where as a giant dog is more likely to have these problems addressed. 

There are a lot of generalizations there, but I think people let small dogs be holy terrors (holy terriers?)  because it feels less scary and can even seem cute to some people. 

And it sounds like your B and SIL shouldn't be pet owners.  Or house guests!

And I do very much understand the pull toward spoiling, especially with a traumatized or otherwise "damaged" dog.  I've got one sleeping by my side right now!  She looks at me with that adorable face and I think, "I could take her with me in the car while I run to the UPS store.  [It's cool out and this errand usually takes less than 2 minutes out of the car.]"  But I know that what is *good* for her is to leave her and her sister home alone, crated, so they learn in small doses, like a >20 minute absence from me, that they are okay home alone and that I will always come back.  So I leave her home, even though I know she'd love to come.  It's not really different than a child.  You make them brush their teeth, even if they don't want to.  You make them take a nap even though they say they want to keep playing.  You take them to the doctor, where they get shots.  People seem to naturally get this with kids, but with pets, somehow the teaching of boundaries and the disciplining falls prey to a wagging tail and big, pleading eyes.  And that's worse for dog and human, in the long run, in many, many ways.

Good points - that makes sense now as far as people excusing the bad behavior of smaller dogs and thereby perpetuating that "Napoleon complex" stereotype. In effect, these dog owners have created little bastard Napoleon dogs lol.

I questioned them getting the dog to begin with and was frankly shocked because I've never known my brother to be a dog person or want one (in fact, out of both my brothers, I've probably wanted a dog the most). But I also partly understand with the strain of COVID (I think it was an impulsive get to perhaps attempt alleviating some of the contention at home now with everyone having to share the same spaces). Supposedly it has been good for my brother (as they generally say pets can be great to have for mental and psychological health and wellbeing, etc) but I think as time goes on, I'm not so sure about that given that he appears to be doing all the dirty work of caring for the dog.... I can see this leading to a build-up and harboring of resentment.

I think sometimes it's easy, as a family member, to take things for granted (particularly staying at another family member's home) and perhaps to overstay a welcome. And I think that's what happened here. Besides the dog there were other things that were irritating like my brother getting up to use the bathroom at midnight and not paying attention to the fact that the flapper was up and water running for hours after he flushed and thereby running our water usage up to 600+ gallons for that day (when we normally use 150-250 gallons even with guests), all of them leaving bathroom lights/fans on after using the bathroom on various occasions, etc. Anyway, we don't anticipate them visiting frequently but next time definitely no dog and we are going to have to put a little more lockdown on house rules with guests. We are generally burnt out also having hosted my parents and nephew the week before my brother's family stayed. I mean, my brother did pay for several meals for all of us while here. But considering how much they saved not having to rent a hotel, the amount they spent on treating us to those meals is a fraction of a hotel stay. They could have offered to buy our Disneyland tickets too but whatever....

[jrhampt]

Oh no.  That dog would not be welcome in my house again and I'd let them know so they can plan on other arrangements next time.  My in laws have a very small dog that has only come over a handful of times for a couple hours at a time but each time he has chewed a tassel off my rug, scratched my floor, and puked and/or peed on my carpet. I'm not a huge fan of people bringing their dogs over to other people's houses.  They're destructive.  People only please.

[Villanelle]

Sunny, I would agree if they had gotten the dog as a puppy. But obviously you have never rescued damaged dogs which come with lots of baggage.

I've only had rescues: I think the point is that you have to work even harder with training in the hope that they will be able to conform to expected standards at some point and in the knowledge that you have to work even harder in the meantime to prevent them from being a nuisance.

Training a dog takes self-awareness (because the dog reacts to your unconcious cues as well as your conscious ones) and self-discipline (so that your own behaviours always, consistently, reinforce the behaviours you want from the dog).

Yes, exactly.  No dog behaves perfectly all the time, but consistently refusing to address it’s behaviour says more about the owner than the dog.  I’ve only had rescues as well, luckily not terribly damaged ones.  I will never hold a dog’s behaviour against it, as long as the owner is trying their best by it and/or getting help when they know they’re in over their heads.  But many don’t, instead giving excuses for it.  That is the lazy part.

Fully agree with this.  I am less than a month into our foster-fail adoptions.  (It's been about 6 weeks total they have been with us if you count the foster time.) These are two 10 year old dogs so they are very set in their ways and have bad habits from a previous family that seemingly didn't do much for them beyond feed them.  They weren't neglected, per se, but they weren't exactly enriched and well-trained, either. 

If I didn't have the time, patience, and motivation to give them what they need to be decent citizens, I shouldn't and wouldn't have adopted them.  When I did, I made a commitment to them.  Now, Doggo1 is probably always going to be reactive to other dogs, but we are working to get it to a point where at least she isn't a total asshole.  (She's not aggressive.  As far as we can tell, she is just out of her mind excited, but we haven't tested it by letting her loose with any other dogs.  She barks, bucks--on her leash--like a wild bronco, and generally is so over-stimulated that she can't be calmed, even with super high value treats.  But the tail is wagging and it seem playful, as far as we can tell. But again, we are working hard on it, and will probably continue to work on it for the rest of her life.  We owe that to her, because we made a commitment to her.  And because we know how she is we will not knowingly put her in situations where she is set up for failure.  So we would never bring her as a houseguest to any home with other dogs, unless there was no other option and in that case--which would need to be some kind of emergency--we'd confine her to her room, not leave the house, etc.   If we knew our dog was a marker, we would bring her to someone's home, and if for some reason we did, we'd stay with her, put down puppy pads, pen her, etc.  And I would be mortified if they marked, and would apologize profusely and clean it up ASAP. 

I am guessing the SIL's excuses in this case might stem somewhat from embarrassment, maybe?  Like, it's easy to say, "Gosh!  I don't know what happened" then it is to own up to the fact that your dog has some behavior issues, and even more so that you aren't really addressing those issues.  Because another thing I'd do is be very up front.  "Look Doggo1 has some issues with other dogs.  We are working on it, but it is a work in progress and if she is in the yard and sees a dog, she is going to bark and may need our help to calm down and shut up.  Even if she's in the house and hears barking, she may bark. We are doing our best, but it's not solved yet and may be worse in another house where she is less relaxed.  If this is an issue, let us know and we won't bring her, and please know we will do everything to keep her as chill and quiet as we can."  That seems like what a decent, considerate house guest does.

Great perspective and details on a recent experience. My SIL had a dog before and he was crazy (btw: my mom said, in front of my brother, that their dog is a 'crazy dog' in a half-joking way. My brother took it way too seriously and got upset, saying that if my SIL heard my mom say something like that, she'd immediately go outside and not come back in for a long time...not sure how true that is but given how much she babies this dog, I could see it happening) so she has *some* experience. That dog was a loud barking and super irritating male Pomeranian - I guess the thing with small male dogs is that many of them have a Napoleon complex. But I remember them spoiling that dog too and I don't think they really trained him either.
As a side: My aunt and uncle got a dog years ago as well (he is some kind of terrier poodle mix IIRC) and I can't recall if he was a rescue or not but that dog was horrible - he was super aggressive with other dogs and would also try to mark (although was a bit more under control in this sense). His main thing was out of control barking and being aggressive with other dogs around. My aunt and uncle and cousins never seemed to train or address that either.
Anyway, I don't even remember the point I was trying to make but I guess it goes back to the point of her making excuses - that could be a possibility with being embarrassed. Maybe embarrassed and confused because she never observed this kind of behavior before? This same dog actually went #2 in my parents living room during Christmas while we were visiting. My brother and SIL were hand-feeding him prime rib and all sorts of other human food and at some point he couldn't take it. I saw him frantically running around the house looking for *something*. My brother/SIL weren't really paying attention or if they were they were confused about what he wanted. Then all of the sudden, he gets into position in the middle of the living room floor and lays a nasty wet one. It was an accident sure, but the owners obviously weren't paying attention and or couldn't read him well. They've had this dog probably since probably early-mid 2021 btw. I think the fact that he is "so chill" masks many of the more subtle behavioral issues and trauma the dog has so instead of trying to learn and understand him, they just spoil and baby him. At some point, I almost feel like this is potentially going to be a point of contention in that family but I won't continue speculating on that...

My opinion on this is that it mostly isn't true.  I think it is an excuse many small dog owners use.  But I think 95% of it is human created.  if you have a 200 pound dog that is inclined to snap at people, bare his teeth, growl, etc.,  you are likely go ing to address the issue ASAP.  And if he bites someone, they are very likely going to report it (and it will do enough damage that they may end up seeking medical care, which may also end up having the dog reported). But if it is a little 7 pounds thing, people laugh and sometimes even call it cute when he growls and acts like a tiny bad-ass.  If he bites, it likely does minor damage so is less likely to be reported.  And as an owner you are less likely to take the behavior seriously and see it as en existential threat to your dog that needs to be corrected ASAP.  So the dog gets less training and continues being a little asshole, where as a giant dog is more likely to have these problems addressed. 

There are a lot of generalizations there, but I think people let small dogs be holy terrors (holy terriers?)  because it feels less scary and can even seem cute to some people. 

And it sounds like your B and SIL shouldn't be pet owners.  Or house guests!

And I do very much understand the pull toward spoiling, especially with a traumatized or otherwise "damaged" dog.  I've got one sleeping by my side right now!  She looks at me with that adorable face and I think, "I could take her with me in the car while I run to the UPS store.  [It's cool out and this errand usually takes less than 2 minutes out of the car.]"  But I know that what is *good* for her is to leave her and her sister home alone, crated, so they learn in small doses, like a >20 minute absence from me, that they are okay home alone and that I will always come back.  So I leave her home, even though I know she'd love to come.  It's not really different than a child.  You make them brush their teeth, even if they don't want to.  You make them take a nap even though they say they want to keep playing.  You take them to the doctor, where they get shots.  People seem to naturally get this with kids, but with pets, somehow the teaching of boundaries and the disciplining falls prey to a wagging tail and big, pleading eyes.  And that's worse for dog and human, in the long run, in many, many ways.

Good points - that makes sense now as far as people excusing the bad behavior of smaller dogs and thereby perpetuating that "Napoleon complex" stereotype. In effect, these dog owners have created little bastard Napoleon dogs lol.

I questioned them getting the dog to begin with and was frankly shocked because I've never known my brother to be a dog person or want one (in fact, out of both my brothers, I've probably wanted a dog the most). But I also partly understand with the strain of COVID (I think it was an impulsive get to perhaps attempt alleviating some of the contention at home now with everyone having to share the same spaces). Supposedly it has been good for my brother (as they generally say pets can be great to have for mental and psychological health and wellbeing, etc) but I think as time goes on, I'm not so sure about that given that he appears to be doing all the dirty work of caring for the dog.... I can see this leading to a build-up and harboring of resentment.

I think sometimes it's easy, as a family member, to take things for granted (particularly staying at another family member's home) and perhaps to overstay a welcome. And I think that's what happened here. Besides the dog there were other things that were irritating like my brother getting up to use the bathroom at midnight and not paying attention to the fact that the flapper was up and water running for hours after he flushed and thereby running our water usage up to 600+ gallons for that day (when we normally use 150-250 gallons even with guests), all of them leaving bathroom lights/fans on after using the bathroom on various occasions, etc. Anyway, we don't anticipate them visiting frequently but next time definitely no dog and we are going to have to put a little more lockdown on house rules with guests. We are generally burnt out also having hosted my parents and nephew the week before my brother's family stayed. I mean, my brother did pay for several meals for all of us while here. But considering how much they saved not having to rent a hotel, the amount they spent on treating us to those meals is a fraction of a hotel stay. They could have offered to buy our Disneyland tickets too but whatever....

The rescue I fostered with and still help out with here and there is absolutely inundated with dogs right now.  And these are no just the less-desirable dogs like pitties and chihuahuas.  People got Covid dogs, and it was great when they had nothing else to do.  And the dogs behaved well when no one was going anywhere.  Now, people are back and work and they realize that if they leave the dog home for 8+ hours, it is going to have to pee sometimes.  And it is going to be bored and probably eat their sofa and chew their baseboards.  And it is used to being with its people 24/7, so it is going to have separation anxiety, because it has never been taught to be calm and confident when alone.  So it will bark and piss off neighbors and be destructive because not only is it bored, it is scared and anxious and confused. 

And it ends up being given to a rescue.  Some of these are designer mutts that people probably paid $1500+ for.  They recently had a 2yo Goldendoodle, for example.  That's an incredibly desirable dog right now.  And they are quite expensive, with many going for over $2000, especially in the popular "apricot" color, which this one is.  Thankfully, that means it will be pretty easy to find this guy a home.  But he's just one example of a Covid dog gone wrong. 

And in the end, it is the dogs that suffer, in multiple ways. 

[GreenSheep]

The rescue I fostered with and still help out with here and there is absolutely inundated with dogs right now.  And these are no just the less-desirable dogs like pitties and chihuahuas.  People got Covid dogs, and it was great when they had nothing else to do.  And the dogs behaved well when no one was going anywhere.  Now, people are back and work and they realize that if they leave the dog home for 8+ hours, it is going to have to pee sometimes.  And it is going to be bored and probably eat their sofa and chew their baseboards.  And it is used to being with its people 24/7, so it is going to have separation anxiety, because it has never been taught to be calm and confident when alone.  So it will bark and piss off neighbors and be destructive because not only is it bored, it is scared and anxious and confused. 

And it ends up being given to a rescue.  Some of these are designer mutts that people probably paid $1500+ for.  They recently had a 2yo Goldendoodle, for example.  That's an incredibly desirable dog right now.  And they are quite expensive, with many going for over $2000, especially in the popular "apricot" color, which this one is.  Thankfully, that means it will be pretty easy to find this guy a home.  But he's just one example of a Covid dog gone wrong. 

And in the end, it is the dogs that suffer, in multiple ways.

It's very sad. Similar to people getting pet bunnies for their kids for Easter, but on an even larger scale.

One of my "classmates" in the classes I take my younger dog to is a breeder, and she gives everyone who takes home one of her puppies a gift card for half the cost of the first-level class. It's not a perfect solution, but it's a start. I assume she also impresses upon people the importance of training if they want to have a good dog.

I also did an online training course that's more for the first year or so, and the woman who developed it did so because of what she called "the puppy problem." She's referring to the fact that so many people get an adorable little puppy (or sad non-puppy rescue case), let him get away with everything, and then start to get frustrated when he gets bigger and more difficult to manage. This program starts from the first day home with your puppy, so you can learn right along with the pup. I think a lot of people think dogs just learn on their own, naturally outgrow unwanted puppy behaviors, etc.... and then when they don't, people don't know how to manage them.

[jeromedawg]

Sunny, I would agree if they had gotten the dog as a puppy. But obviously you have never rescued damaged dogs which come with lots of baggage.

I've only had rescues: I think the point is that you have to work even harder with training in the hope that they will be able to conform to expected standards at some point and in the knowledge that you have to work even harder in the meantime to prevent them from being a nuisance.

Training a dog takes self-awareness (because the dog reacts to your unconcious cues as well as your conscious ones) and self-discipline (so that your own behaviours always, consistently, reinforce the behaviours you want from the dog).

Yes, exactly.  No dog behaves perfectly all the time, but consistently refusing to address it’s behaviour says more about the owner than the dog.  I’ve only had rescues as well, luckily not terribly damaged ones.  I will never hold a dog’s behaviour against it, as long as the owner is trying their best by it and/or getting help when they know they’re in over their heads.  But many don’t, instead giving excuses for it.  That is the lazy part.

Fully agree with this.  I am less than a month into our foster-fail adoptions.  (It's been about 6 weeks total they have been with us if you count the foster time.) These are two 10 year old dogs so they are very set in their ways and have bad habits from a previous family that seemingly didn't do much for them beyond feed them.  They weren't neglected, per se, but they weren't exactly enriched and well-trained, either. 

If I didn't have the time, patience, and motivation to give them what they need to be decent citizens, I shouldn't and wouldn't have adopted them.  When I did, I made a commitment to them.  Now, Doggo1 is probably always going to be reactive to other dogs, but we are working to get it to a point where at least she isn't a total asshole.  (She's not aggressive.  As far as we can tell, she is just out of her mind excited, but we haven't tested it by letting her loose with any other dogs.  She barks, bucks--on her leash--like a wild bronco, and generally is so over-stimulated that she can't be calmed, even with super high value treats.  But the tail is wagging and it seem playful, as far as we can tell. But again, we are working hard on it, and will probably continue to work on it for the rest of her life.  We owe that to her, because we made a commitment to her.  And because we know how she is we will not knowingly put her in situations where she is set up for failure.  So we would never bring her as a houseguest to any home with other dogs, unless there was no other option and in that case--which would need to be some kind of emergency--we'd confine her to her room, not leave the house, etc.   If we knew our dog was a marker, we would bring her to someone's home, and if for some reason we did, we'd stay with her, put down puppy pads, pen her, etc.  And I would be mortified if they marked, and would apologize profusely and clean it up ASAP. 

I am guessing the SIL's excuses in this case might stem somewhat from embarrassment, maybe?  Like, it's easy to say, "Gosh!  I don't know what happened" then it is to own up to the fact that your dog has some behavior issues, and even more so that you aren't really addressing those issues.  Because another thing I'd do is be very up front.  "Look Doggo1 has some issues with other dogs.  We are working on it, but it is a work in progress and if she is in the yard and sees a dog, she is going to bark and may need our help to calm down and shut up.  Even if she's in the house and hears barking, she may bark. We are doing our best, but it's not solved yet and may be worse in another house where she is less relaxed.  If this is an issue, let us know and we won't bring her, and please know we will do everything to keep her as chill and quiet as we can."  That seems like what a decent, considerate house guest does.

Great perspective and details on a recent experience. My SIL had a dog before and he was crazy (btw: my mom said, in front of my brother, that their dog is a 'crazy dog' in a half-joking way. My brother took it way too seriously and got upset, saying that if my SIL heard my mom say something like that, she'd immediately go outside and not come back in for a long time...not sure how true that is but given how much she babies this dog, I could see it happening) so she has *some* experience. That dog was a loud barking and super irritating male Pomeranian - I guess the thing with small male dogs is that many of them have a Napoleon complex. But I remember them spoiling that dog too and I don't think they really trained him either.
As a side: My aunt and uncle got a dog years ago as well (he is some kind of terrier poodle mix IIRC) and I can't recall if he was a rescue or not but that dog was horrible - he was super aggressive with other dogs and would also try to mark (although was a bit more under control in this sense). His main thing was out of control barking and being aggressive with other dogs around. My aunt and uncle and cousins never seemed to train or address that either.
Anyway, I don't even remember the point I was trying to make but I guess it goes back to the point of her making excuses - that could be a possibility with being embarrassed. Maybe embarrassed and confused because she never observed this kind of behavior before? This same dog actually went #2 in my parents living room during Christmas while we were visiting. My brother and SIL were hand-feeding him prime rib and all sorts of other human food and at some point he couldn't take it. I saw him frantically running around the house looking for *something*. My brother/SIL weren't really paying attention or if they were they were confused about what he wanted. Then all of the sudden, he gets into position in the middle of the living room floor and lays a nasty wet one. It was an accident sure, but the owners obviously weren't paying attention and or couldn't read him well. They've had this dog probably since probably early-mid 2021 btw. I think the fact that he is "so chill" masks many of the more subtle behavioral issues and trauma the dog has so instead of trying to learn and understand him, they just spoil and baby him. At some point, I almost feel like this is potentially going to be a point of contention in that family but I won't continue speculating on that...

My opinion on this is that it mostly isn't true.  I think it is an excuse many small dog owners use.  But I think 95% of it is human created.  if you have a 200 pound dog that is inclined to snap at people, bare his teeth, growl, etc.,  you are likely go ing to address the issue ASAP.  And if he bites someone, they are very likely going to report it (and it will do enough damage that they may end up seeking medical care, which may also end up having the dog reported). But if it is a little 7 pounds thing, people laugh and sometimes even call it cute when he growls and acts like a tiny bad-ass.  If he bites, it likely does minor damage so is less likely to be reported.  And as an owner you are less likely to take the behavior seriously and see it as en existential threat to your dog that needs to be corrected ASAP.  So the dog gets less training and continues being a little asshole, where as a giant dog is more likely to have these problems addressed. 

There are a lot of generalizations there, but I think people let small dogs be holy terrors (holy terriers?)  because it feels less scary and can even seem cute to some people. 

And it sounds like your B and SIL shouldn't be pet owners.  Or house guests!

And I do very much understand the pull toward spoiling, especially with a traumatized or otherwise "damaged" dog.  I've got one sleeping by my side right now!  She looks at me with that adorable face and I think, "I could take her with me in the car while I run to the UPS store.  [It's cool out and this errand usually takes less than 2 minutes out of the car.]"  But I know that what is *good* for her is to leave her and her sister home alone, crated, so they learn in small doses, like a >20 minute absence from me, that they are okay home alone and that I will always come back.  So I leave her home, even though I know she'd love to come.  It's not really different than a child.  You make them brush their teeth, even if they don't want to.  You make them take a nap even though they say they want to keep playing.  You take them to the doctor, where they get shots.  People seem to naturally get this with kids, but with pets, somehow the teaching of boundaries and the disciplining falls prey to a wagging tail and big, pleading eyes.  And that's worse for dog and human, in the long run, in many, many ways.

Good points - that makes sense now as far as people excusing the bad behavior of smaller dogs and thereby perpetuating that "Napoleon complex" stereotype. In effect, these dog owners have created little bastard Napoleon dogs lol.

I questioned them getting the dog to begin with and was frankly shocked because I've never known my brother to be a dog person or want one (in fact, out of both my brothers, I've probably wanted a dog the most). But I also partly understand with the strain of COVID (I think it was an impulsive get to perhaps attempt alleviating some of the contention at home now with everyone having to share the same spaces). Supposedly it has been good for my brother (as they generally say pets can be great to have for mental and psychological health and wellbeing, etc) but I think as time goes on, I'm not so sure about that given that he appears to be doing all the dirty work of caring for the dog.... I can see this leading to a build-up and harboring of resentment.

I think sometimes it's easy, as a family member, to take things for granted (particularly staying at another family member's home) and perhaps to overstay a welcome. And I think that's what happened here. Besides the dog there were other things that were irritating like my brother getting up to use the bathroom at midnight and not paying attention to the fact that the flapper was up and water running for hours after he flushed and thereby running our water usage up to 600+ gallons for that day (when we normally use 150-250 gallons even with guests), all of them leaving bathroom lights/fans on after using the bathroom on various occasions, etc. Anyway, we don't anticipate them visiting frequently but next time definitely no dog and we are going to have to put a little more lockdown on house rules with guests. We are generally burnt out also having hosted my parents and nephew the week before my brother's family stayed. I mean, my brother did pay for several meals for all of us while here. But considering how much they saved not having to rent a hotel, the amount they spent on treating us to those meals is a fraction of a hotel stay. They could have offered to buy our Disneyland tickets too but whatever....

The rescue I fostered with and still help out with here and there is absolutely inundated with dogs right now.  And these are no just the less-desirable dogs like pitties and chihuahuas.  People got Covid dogs, and it was great when they had nothing else to do.  And the dogs behaved well when no one was going anywhere.  Now, people are back and work and they realize that if they leave the dog home for 8+ hours, it is going to have to pee sometimes.  And it is going to be bored and probably eat their sofa and chew their baseboards.  And it is used to being with its people 24/7, so it is going to have separation anxiety, because it has never been taught to be calm and confident when alone.  So it will bark and piss off neighbors and be destructive because not only is it bored, it is scared and anxious and confused. 

And it ends up being given to a rescue.  Some of these are designer mutts that people probably paid $1500+ for.  They recently had a 2yo Goldendoodle, for example.  That's an incredibly desirable dog right now.  And they are quite expensive, with many going for over $2000, especially in the popular "apricot" color, which this one is.  Thankfully, that means it will be pretty easy to find this guy a home.  But he's just one example of a Covid dog gone wrong. 

And in the end, it is the dogs that suffer, in multiple ways.

The irony of it is my brother used to complain about his neighbors (or maybe they've moved by now) where the boyfriend got the girlfriend a dog as a present (bday or Christmas or something) and all they did was leave it outside all day. They would rarely ever interact with it and at some point both of them returned to office to work, so the dog was left in the yard all day with zero interaction. The poor dog would just be out in the yard barking all day. This would probably be irritating for most people.... Anyway, he probably feels like the dog they have now is a way better dog because it barely barks or whatever so there's that. At the same time, I think they're slowly learning the intricacies and incidentals that start adding up of dog ownership where you can't just do all the same things and whatever you want that you might have done before without putting some serious thought into it (e.g. going on vacation). Like you pointed out, this dog has really only seen and known a very limited scope of homes and humans... of course, none of that was realized until he was put into a very different circumstance (traveling with his family) seemingly out of nowhere. While it may be a huge event for the dog that requires quite a bit of empathy, it's still no excuse for poor planning/preparation as well as response when it comes to knowingly putting your dog in brand new situations. Unless we know the dog well that's coming over, we probably won't be doing this again. The only dog I'd be ok with having at our place actually is my wife's cousin's dog who we dog sat. He trained her extremely well. All this to say, it has still been on my radar to get a dog but my wife refuses... and this whole situation didn't help but it's also quite eye-opening in terms of learning and hearing of all of your experiences especially with rescue dogs.

My in-laws have a Jindo because they decided they wanted a "protection" dog that would bark and be their alarm...of course leaving her untrained...smh. I'm scared to have her around with our kids - she has rammed the screen door several times when our kids were little while we were inside the house. No way I'd let her out with my kids in the yard - so we make my FIL separate and cage her off every time we visit. He got her as a pup and was so lazy about training her, and left her outside the entire time so house breaking was never necessary - she just poops wherever and he picks it up. This was the same story with the two rottweiler-beagle dogs he had prior, except those dogs were pretty sweet. My wife trained/taught them a little bit but it wasn't consistent enough since this was during her college years while she was away. I just remember they would refuse to walk both dogs because they couldn't be walked - they would charge ahead and run off if you couldn't hold your grip. It's because they never walked them when they were little so it became mostly impossible when they grew up. The Jindo is the same way, except she is more wild and rambunctious.

[darknight]

Tons of replies..

I'll add mine. If there are as many spots as claimed, you're free to call it out. There should absolutely be limitations and respect from both sides. I'd call it out as kind as possible and in the future require "crate only/mud room only/garage only" for the dog. But, If you've made the point clear, let it drop unless you're going to bill them.

We have family that doesn't allow dogs on our visits at all (we have a 10 lb mixed breed dog). After a visit (we always kept him on a leash) we were blamed for potty spots around the house... They have a free roaming dog in their house and our dog was on the leash 100% of the time and wouldn't leave my wife's side if you had steak. Seriously.  After getting blamed for potty spots then asked in a really awkward passive aggressive conversations to never bring our dog over again, we don't. It's great fun that this family member allows their friends to bring their dogs over.

You learn how much respect is given back and forth with these situations.

[jeromedawg]

Quick update here, which is a slight deviation of the original post but my mom has been wanting us to have a family get together (I posted for recommendations here, https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/suggestions-for-lower-cost-beachfront-vacations-on-the-west-coast/) so I've been researching places. I ended up finding a place that looks good for everyone to 'cram' into, and I even factored in 1 pet (I don't know why... I think I was just curious as I had a feeling it would come back to this anyway). What I didn't realize was that the link of the search I copied/pasted from AirBnB into a chat thread to my siblings included # of guests, children, and... you guessed it: PETS.  If I had realized this, I wouldn't have linked it that way but I failed to see it in the URL before sending it out :( 

The first thing my SIL replied back with is "Thank you for finding dog friendly places!"

*facepalm* after thinking about it more, the last thing I want is for them bringing that dog with them on a vacation where we have to constantly worry if he'll end up marking all of our stuff AND someone else's property. So now they're making it an obvious priority to bring the dog even though my brother is acting like it isn't (my SIL, it feels like, is almost holding this up like a condition now). I told them that the place has to approve the pet and there's an upcharge for it as well - I then made a side comment that they probably would be stringent about the dog being 100% housebroken and at least crate and or pee pad trained, to which my SIL responded "Why assume? Just let the owners say it themselves" and then went on to redirect away from the fact that her dog obviously has behavioral issues with marking all over homes to how her dog escaped the dog-sitter that day we all went to Disneyland and how that is the overarching concern here (I think it's her way of justifying that she *absolutely NEEDS* to bring the dog with them no ifs ands or buts, because she can't afford the headache and hassle of a dog running off at the hands of someone else...again...)

In the first place, neither her or my brother seem super enthusiastic about this potential trip (I know for a fact it's not a high priority item for them to vacation with my parents, which makes sense because they literally live around the corner from them and see them all the time) so we told them yesterday in a nice way that if they aren't interested in joining that's fine but let us know instead of sitting on the fence about it (my brother went on this whole spiel about how they aren't sure whether or not they can make it and it all depends on if the NBA team they follow is going to make it to the playoffs... it was the most confusing thing ever). Anyway, this whole dog/pet thing just feels like another selfish ploy they're throwing out now. If they keep pressing it, I will tell them they need to belly band the dog but if they refuse or fuss at even that I'm just going to say screw it and suggest that everyone make their own accommodations instead... Smh

[GreenSheep]

Quick update here, which is a slight deviation of the original post but my mom has been wanting us to have a family get together (I posted for recommendations here, https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/suggestions-for-lower-cost-beachfront-vacations-on-the-west-coast/) so I've been researching places. I ended up finding a place that looks good for everyone to 'cram' into, and I even factored in 1 pet (I don't know why... I think I was just curious as I had a feeling it would come back to this anyway). What I didn't realize was that the link of the search I copied/pasted from AirBnB into a chat thread to my siblings included # of guests, children, and... you guessed it: PETS.  If I had realized this, I wouldn't have linked it that way but I failed to see it in the URL before sending it out :( 

The first thing my SIL replied back with is "Thank you for finding dog friendly places!"

*facepalm* after thinking about it more, the last thing I want is for them bringing that dog with them on a vacation where we have to constantly worry if he'll end up marking all of our stuff AND someone else's property. So now they're making it an obvious priority to bring the dog even though my brother is acting like it isn't (my SIL, it feels like, is almost holding this up like a condition now). I told them that the place has to approve the pet and there's an upcharge for it as well - I then made a side comment that they probably would be stringent about the dog being 100% housebroken and at least crate and or pee pad trained, to which my SIL responded "Why assume? Just let the owners say it themselves" and then went on to redirect away from the fact that her dog obviously has behavioral issues with marking all over homes to how her dog escaped the dog-sitter that day we all went to Disneyland and how that is the overarching concern here (I think it's her way of justifying that she *absolutely NEEDS* to bring the dog with them no ifs ands or buts, because she can't afford the headache and hassle of a dog running off at the hands of someone else...again...)

In the first place, neither her or my brother seem super enthusiastic about this potential trip (I know for a fact it's not a high priority item for them to vacation with my parents, which makes sense because they literally live around the corner from them and see them all the time) so we told them yesterday in a nice way that if they aren't interested in joining that's fine but let us know instead of sitting on the fence about it (my brother went on this whole spiel about how they aren't sure whether or not they can make it and it all depends on if the NBA team they follow is going to make it to the playoffs... it was the most confusing thing ever). Anyway, this whole dog/pet thing just feels like another selfish ploy they're throwing out now. If they keep pressing it, I will tell them they need to belly band the dog but if they refuse or fuss at even that I'm just going to say screw it and suggest that everyone make their own accommodations instead... Smh

I love dogs, but I would not stay with that dog in a place where I'd be partially or fully responsible for any damage the dog might do. Given past events, I can see your brother/SIL allowing the dog to ruin something and then leaving you holding the bill. Not to mention, like you said, it would make for a very stressful vacation, constantly worrying about what the dog might do.

[Fishindude]

The good lord gave dogs a fur coat so they could live outdoors.

[jeromedawg]

The good lord gave dogs a fur coat so they could live outdoors.

This dog is *special* though....LOL. At their house I think he either sleeps in a dog bed in their room or sleeps in the bed with them. He's also a small dog so I think safety is another concern for them (when the dog bolted out of the sitters door while they were down here, in the back of my mind I was concerned because there is a population of coyotes [including displaced ones] in this area and we've already seen them 3x now... it might be the same one but regardless). He has major separation anxiety too - the day they left for their second day at Disneyland, while my wife and I were home, he would whimper and soft-bark from his crate as they were walking out there door. This would continue for another 5-10mins after they left but eventually he quieted down. Anyway, he's literally treated like another human [baby] in the family the way they pamper him.

Quick update here, which is a slight deviation of the original post but my mom has been wanting us to have a family get together (I posted for recommendations here, https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/suggestions-for-lower-cost-beachfront-vacations-on-the-west-coast/) so I've been researching places. I ended up finding a place that looks good for everyone to 'cram' into, and I even factored in 1 pet (I don't know why... I think I was just curious as I had a feeling it would come back to this anyway). What I didn't realize was that the link of the search I copied/pasted from AirBnB into a chat thread to my siblings included # of guests, children, and... you guessed it: PETS.  If I had realized this, I wouldn't have linked it that way but I failed to see it in the URL before sending it out :( 

The first thing my SIL replied back with is "Thank you for finding dog friendly places!"

*facepalm* after thinking about it more, the last thing I want is for them bringing that dog with them on a vacation where we have to constantly worry if he'll end up marking all of our stuff AND someone else's property. So now they're making it an obvious priority to bring the dog even though my brother is acting like it isn't (my SIL, it feels like, is almost holding this up like a condition now). I told them that the place has to approve the pet and there's an upcharge for it as well - I then made a side comment that they probably would be stringent about the dog being 100% housebroken and at least crate and or pee pad trained, to which my SIL responded "Why assume? Just let the owners say it themselves" and then went on to redirect away from the fact that her dog obviously has behavioral issues with marking all over homes to how her dog escaped the dog-sitter that day we all went to Disneyland and how that is the overarching concern here (I think it's her way of justifying that she *absolutely NEEDS* to bring the dog with them no ifs ands or buts, because she can't afford the headache and hassle of a dog running off at the hands of someone else...again...)

In the first place, neither her or my brother seem super enthusiastic about this potential trip (I know for a fact it's not a high priority item for them to vacation with my parents, which makes sense because they literally live around the corner from them and see them all the time) so we told them yesterday in a nice way that if they aren't interested in joining that's fine but let us know instead of sitting on the fence about it (my brother went on this whole spiel about how they aren't sure whether or not they can make it and it all depends on if the NBA team they follow is going to make it to the playoffs... it was the most confusing thing ever). Anyway, this whole dog/pet thing just feels like another selfish ploy they're throwing out now. If they keep pressing it, I will tell them they need to belly band the dog but if they refuse or fuss at even that I'm just going to say screw it and suggest that everyone make their own accommodations instead... Smh

I love dogs, but I would not stay with that dog in a place where I'd be partially or fully responsible for any damage the dog might do. Given past events, I can see your brother/SIL allowing the dog to ruin something and then leaving you holding the bill. Not to mention, like you said, it would make for a very stressful vacation, constantly worrying about what the dog might do.

He doesn't gnaw or scratch at things - at least, he didn't at our place. He literally just sits and lays around all the time and is not rambunctious at all - he is a very timid dog and is afraid of *everything* - really the problems whittle down to his separation anxiety and marking/peeing.
I don't know how big of a deal the marking and excitement pees are when it comes to traveling and vacation rentals but if I were a vacation rental owner, I don't think I would allow pets in my rental at least initially... as a guest, the last thing I'd want to worry about his all of us having to constantly keep an eye on him so that he's not marking all over the vacation rental and especially on carpeted areas, fabric furniture/bedding, or our belongings (but even then, there's not much we can really do to stop it unless they concede to putting a belly band on him) - it all just adds another layer to things and makes it less of a "vacation"
I realize that I think my SIL mentioned the dog-sitting incident (where he ran off) as justification of why she feels she needs to bring him with them, because they can't trust any dog sitter to responsibly care for him and prevent him from running off again. I thought with many of those bigger boarding places like Petco/Petsmart, they often would have trained staff who understand and know how to deal with these kinds of dogs and have safeguards in place to prevent your pets from bolting out the door into traffic or getting lost... *shrug*

I am curious about the belly band suggestion - if they insist that this dog join, I'm going to politely insist that they belly band him. I have a feeling my SIL will think that this is somehow mean or cruel or look for reasons *not* to have to do that, at which point I will politely call out the fact that he marked half a dozen times in our home and half those incidents nobody even knew about.

[Villanelle]

The good lord gave dogs a fur coat so they could live outdoors.

This dog is *special* though....LOL. At their house I think he either sleeps in a dog bed in their room or sleeps in the bed with them. He's also a small dog so I think safety is another concern for them (when the dog bolted out of the sitters door while they were down here, in the back of my mind I was concerned because there is a population of coyotes [including displaced ones] in this area and we've already seen them 3x now... it might be the same one but regardless). He has major separation anxiety too - the day they left for their second day at Disneyland, while my wife and I were home, he would whimper and soft-bark from his crate as they were walking out there door. This would continue for another 5-10mins after they left but eventually he quieted down. Anyway, he's literally treated like another human [baby] in the family the way they pamper him.

Quick update here, which is a slight deviation of the original post but my mom has been wanting us to have a family get together (I posted for recommendations here, https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/suggestions-for-lower-cost-beachfront-vacations-on-the-west-coast/) so I've been researching places. I ended up finding a place that looks good for everyone to 'cram' into, and I even factored in 1 pet (I don't know why... I think I was just curious as I had a feeling it would come back to this anyway). What I didn't realize was that the link of the search I copied/pasted from AirBnB into a chat thread to my siblings included # of guests, children, and... you guessed it: PETS.  If I had realized this, I wouldn't have linked it that way but I failed to see it in the URL before sending it out :( 

The first thing my SIL replied back with is "Thank you for finding dog friendly places!"

*facepalm* after thinking about it more, the last thing I want is for them bringing that dog with them on a vacation where we have to constantly worry if he'll end up marking all of our stuff AND someone else's property. So now they're making it an obvious priority to bring the dog even though my brother is acting like it isn't (my SIL, it feels like, is almost holding this up like a condition now). I told them that the place has to approve the pet and there's an upcharge for it as well - I then made a side comment that they probably would be stringent about the dog being 100% housebroken and at least crate and or pee pad trained, to which my SIL responded "Why assume? Just let the owners say it themselves" and then went on to redirect away from the fact that her dog obviously has behavioral issues with marking all over homes to how her dog escaped the dog-sitter that day we all went to Disneyland and how that is the overarching concern here (I think it's her way of justifying that she *absolutely NEEDS* to bring the dog with them no ifs ands or buts, because she can't afford the headache and hassle of a dog running off at the hands of someone else...again...)

In the first place, neither her or my brother seem super enthusiastic about this potential trip (I know for a fact it's not a high priority item for them to vacation with my parents, which makes sense because they literally live around the corner from them and see them all the time) so we told them yesterday in a nice way that if they aren't interested in joining that's fine but let us know instead of sitting on the fence about it (my brother went on this whole spiel about how they aren't sure whether or not they can make it and it all depends on if the NBA team they follow is going to make it to the playoffs... it was the most confusing thing ever). Anyway, this whole dog/pet thing just feels like another selfish ploy they're throwing out now. If they keep pressing it, I will tell them they need to belly band the dog but if they refuse or fuss at even that I'm just going to say screw it and suggest that everyone make their own accommodations instead... Smh

I love dogs, but I would not stay with that dog in a place where I'd be partially or fully responsible for any damage the dog might do. Given past events, I can see your brother/SIL allowing the dog to ruin something and then leaving you holding the bill. Not to mention, like you said, it would make for a very stressful vacation, constantly worrying about what the dog might do.

He doesn't gnaw or scratch at things - at least, he didn't at our place. He literally just sits and lays around all the time and is not rambunctious at all - he is a very timid dog and is afraid of *everything* - really the problems whittle down to his separation anxiety and marking/peeing.
I don't know how big of a deal the marking and excitement pees are when it comes to traveling and vacation rentals but if I were a vacation rental owner, I don't think I would allow pets in my rental at least initially... as a guest, the last thing I'd want to worry about his all of us having to constantly keep an eye on him so that he's not marking all over the vacation rental and especially on carpeted areas, fabric furniture/bedding, or our belongings (but even then, there's not much we can really do to stop it unless they concede to putting a belly band on him) - it all just adds another layer to things and makes it less of a "vacation"
I realize that I think my SIL mentioned the dog-sitting incident (where he ran off) as justification of why she feels she needs to bring him with them, because they can't trust any dog sitter to responsibly care for him and prevent him from running off again. I thought with many of those bigger boarding places like Petco/Petsmart, they often would have trained staff who understand and know how to deal with these kinds of dogs and have safeguards in place to prevent your pets from bolting out the door into traffic or getting lost... *shrug*

I am curious about the belly band suggestion - if they insist that this dog join, I'm going to politely insist that they belly band him. I have a feeling my SIL will think that this is somehow mean or cruel or look for reasons *not* to have to do that, at which point I will politely call out the fact that he marked half a dozen times in our home and half those incidents nobody even knew about.

Those are generally the worst places, staffed by teens and early 20-somethings who are overworked and underpaid.  When we wanted to take our rescue beasts to get groomed (ended up just bathing at home) because they came to us filthy, I asked the rescue.  (They were just fosters at the time so we needed permission for any type of care.)  They basically said we could take them anywhere except Petsmart or Petco.  That was grooming, but I think the same principles apply to boarding.  Care will generally be much better at private boarding facilities.  That said, it seems unlikely that a dog would escape at any type of facility, unless he was a major escape artist who dug his way out or jumped a  6 foot fence.  In that sense, boarding is going to be more secure than homecare.

[SunnyDays]

How does everyone else going on the vacation feel about the dog coming?  Maybe they would have some influence over the decision.  I can't imagine that the dog would consider this a good time either.  And if you think you regretted having them bring it to your house, just wait!  The vacation will be way worse.

Why not just be upfront with them?  Tell them you made an error in including dog friendly places, and because of what happened at your home, you don't want them to bring it.  Tell them they don't behave responsibly with the dog.  If that offends them, oh well.  Maybe they will decide to stay home.  Sometimes insensitive people just need to be talked to very bluntly for them to get it.

[jeromedawg]

The good lord gave dogs a fur coat so they could live outdoors.

This dog is *special* though....LOL. At their house I think he either sleeps in a dog bed in their room or sleeps in the bed with them. He's also a small dog so I think safety is another concern for them (when the dog bolted out of the sitters door while they were down here, in the back of my mind I was concerned because there is a population of coyotes [including displaced ones] in this area and we've already seen them 3x now... it might be the same one but regardless). He has major separation anxiety too - the day they left for their second day at Disneyland, while my wife and I were home, he would whimper and soft-bark from his crate as they were walking out there door. This would continue for another 5-10mins after they left but eventually he quieted down. Anyway, he's literally treated like another human [baby] in the family the way they pamper him.

Quick update here, which is a slight deviation of the original post but my mom has been wanting us to have a family get together (I posted for recommendations here, https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/suggestions-for-lower-cost-beachfront-vacations-on-the-west-coast/) so I've been researching places. I ended up finding a place that looks good for everyone to 'cram' into, and I even factored in 1 pet (I don't know why... I think I was just curious as I had a feeling it would come back to this anyway). What I didn't realize was that the link of the search I copied/pasted from AirBnB into a chat thread to my siblings included # of guests, children, and... you guessed it: PETS.  If I had realized this, I wouldn't have linked it that way but I failed to see it in the URL before sending it out :( 

The first thing my SIL replied back with is "Thank you for finding dog friendly places!"

*facepalm* after thinking about it more, the last thing I want is for them bringing that dog with them on a vacation where we have to constantly worry if he'll end up marking all of our stuff AND someone else's property. So now they're making it an obvious priority to bring the dog even though my brother is acting like it isn't (my SIL, it feels like, is almost holding this up like a condition now). I told them that the place has to approve the pet and there's an upcharge for it as well - I then made a side comment that they probably would be stringent about the dog being 100% housebroken and at least crate and or pee pad trained, to which my SIL responded "Why assume? Just let the owners say it themselves" and then went on to redirect away from the fact that her dog obviously has behavioral issues with marking all over homes to how her dog escaped the dog-sitter that day we all went to Disneyland and how that is the overarching concern here (I think it's her way of justifying that she *absolutely NEEDS* to bring the dog with them no ifs ands or buts, because she can't afford the headache and hassle of a dog running off at the hands of someone else...again...)

In the first place, neither her or my brother seem super enthusiastic about this potential trip (I know for a fact it's not a high priority item for them to vacation with my parents, which makes sense because they literally live around the corner from them and see them all the time) so we told them yesterday in a nice way that if they aren't interested in joining that's fine but let us know instead of sitting on the fence about it (my brother went on this whole spiel about how they aren't sure whether or not they can make it and it all depends on if the NBA team they follow is going to make it to the playoffs... it was the most confusing thing ever). Anyway, this whole dog/pet thing just feels like another selfish ploy they're throwing out now. If they keep pressing it, I will tell them they need to belly band the dog but if they refuse or fuss at even that I'm just going to say screw it and suggest that everyone make their own accommodations instead... Smh

I love dogs, but I would not stay with that dog in a place where I'd be partially or fully responsible for any damage the dog might do. Given past events, I can see your brother/SIL allowing the dog to ruin something and then leaving you holding the bill. Not to mention, like you said, it would make for a very stressful vacation, constantly worrying about what the dog might do.

He doesn't gnaw or scratch at things - at least, he didn't at our place. He literally just sits and lays around all the time and is not rambunctious at all - he is a very timid dog and is afraid of *everything* - really the problems whittle down to his separation anxiety and marking/peeing.
I don't know how big of a deal the marking and excitement pees are when it comes to traveling and vacation rentals but if I were a vacation rental owner, I don't think I would allow pets in my rental at least initially... as a guest, the last thing I'd want to worry about his all of us having to constantly keep an eye on him so that he's not marking all over the vacation rental and especially on carpeted areas, fabric furniture/bedding, or our belongings (but even then, there's not much we can really do to stop it unless they concede to putting a belly band on him) - it all just adds another layer to things and makes it less of a "vacation"
I realize that I think my SIL mentioned the dog-sitting incident (where he ran off) as justification of why she feels she needs to bring him with them, because they can't trust any dog sitter to responsibly care for him and prevent him from running off again. I thought with many of those bigger boarding places like Petco/Petsmart, they often would have trained staff who understand and know how to deal with these kinds of dogs and have safeguards in place to prevent your pets from bolting out the door into traffic or getting lost... *shrug*

I am curious about the belly band suggestion - if they insist that this dog join, I'm going to politely insist that they belly band him. I have a feeling my SIL will think that this is somehow mean or cruel or look for reasons *not* to have to do that, at which point I will politely call out the fact that he marked half a dozen times in our home and half those incidents nobody even knew about.

Those are generally the worst places, staffed by teens and early 20-somethings who are overworked and underpaid.  When we wanted to take our rescue beasts to get groomed (ended up just bathing at home) because they came to us filthy, I asked the rescue.  (They were just fosters at the time so we needed permission for any type of care.)  They basically said we could take them anywhere except Petsmart or Petco.  That was grooming, but I think the same principles apply to boarding.  Care will generally be much better at private boarding facilities.  That said, it seems unlikely that a dog would escape at any type of facility, unless he was a major escape artist who dug his way out or jumped a  6 foot fence.  In that sense, boarding is going to be more secure than homecare.

Good to know, but I would think YMMV too with those places. I'm sure there are some locations that are pretty good and some that are terrible. The Petsmart nearby was recommended by another family at our kids' school - they have a dog or two and have done sitters and also boarding. She told us that the Petsmart down the street from us is pretty good. But yea, there actually is a private boarding place not far from where we're vacationing. I think the incident with Rover scared my SIL off completely though. Now she's talking about staying back home with the dog and not going on the trip period. Originally, she expressed concern about not being able to take the full time off from work. So I think there are just things that family needs to get figured out amongst themselves.

How does everyone else going on the vacation feel about the dog coming?  Maybe they would have some influence over the decision.  I can't imagine that the dog would consider this a good time either.  And if you think you regretted having them bring it to your house, just wait!  The vacation will be way worse.

Why not just be upfront with them?  Tell them you made an error in including dog friendly places, and because of what happened at your home, you don't want them to bring it.  Tell them they don't behave responsibly with the dog.  If that offends them, oh well.  Maybe they will decide to stay home.  Sometimes insensitive people just need to be talked to very bluntly for them to get it.

Already, my SIL seems to be ducking out and opting to "stay back with the dog" - I don't know if she's upset from me talking about the belly band (because she's burying her head in the sand and denying that the dog has issues), if it's just her being frustrated because she and my brother have to figure out whether or not they really should bring the dog, or all of the above and then some. I really don't want to start infighting by knowingly saying something that could offend them either. So I'm trying to find that balance. They already pissed us off a few years ago when planning a cruise and us not wanting to go to a locale where Zika was a concern but they basically overrode it because of their selfish preferences. So this could very well boil over into one of those situations again, in which case I would bluntly tell them that they're selfish and only think about themselves. Sure, I could tell them that *now* but that would jeopardize the whole thing with my parents wanting all of us together for a family vacation. If the compromise is that she and her dog don't come, then I think that's a compromise we can live with (as opposed to me offending/pissing them off at the start and the entire family backing out). To be clear, I don't have issues (in the context of the dog) with my nephews or even my brother so much - my brother actually seems a bit 'stuck' because I'm sure he wants to appease his wife but at the same time probably knows the dog is going to be troublesome. Whereas my SIL seems to be near full denial and is blinded of the behavioral issues due to her intense love for her dog. It just seems like they're putting this dog on such a pedestal that it now impacts any kind of planning we do that involves this family.

As far as how everyone else feels about the dog joining - the other family is a cat family and I don't think they'd really care or mind. I know for a fact that my parents wouldn't prefer to have the dog around but if he was there they wouldn't really make too much of a fuss about it. The difference between my parents and my other brother and his family (cat family) is that I know this dog has behavioral issues with marking and they don't, so they'd be in for a nasty surprise when they see him walking by their bags, belongings, etc, lifting his legs up and spraying all over the place. I think that could very much sour the mood for people. I know everyone would try to keep it cordial and nice but in their minds they'd probably at least be slightly upset... I'm sure it's still not something anyone would want or welcome during a vacation or getaway. Honestly, I think the dog would be overwhelmed going from living with 4 people to now 14 people and I wouldn't be surprised if he is more inclined to mark all over the place at that point.

[Catbert]

JFC!  This is why people won't rent to people with animals.  As a bare minimum ensure that it's someone other than you who *officially* books the rental and uses their (not your) credit card.  If you've renting through Airbnb or VRBO the owners *rate* the renter as well as the reverse.  Just what you need is to get a horrible write-up because *you* had a dog who peed all over the place.

Somebody needs to be the bad guy in the situation.  Maybe it's your turn.

[GreenSheep]

JFC!  This is why people won't rent to people with animals.

Exactly. My dogs are better-behaved than some children (and heck, a few adults, too!), and yet they're allowed in fewer places... all because of irresponsible pet owners who make the rest of us look bad!

[Kris]

I would definitely refuse to be the person in charge of booking this rental. If it is in your name, you will be the one on the hook for paying the inevitable charges that will be incurred when the dog does damage. Your bro and SIL won’t give you the money, you know that, right? And yeah, you will get a negative rating from the owner of the place on your profile, and that will follow you everywhere you try to book after that.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

[jeromedawg]

I would definitely refuse to be the person in charge of booking this rental. If it is in your name, you will be the one on the hook for paying the inevitable charges that will be incurred when the dog does damage. Your bro and SIL won’t give you the money, you know that, right? And yeah, you will get a negative rating from the owner of the place on your profile, and that will follow you everywhere you try to book after that.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

In terms of them paying for damages and other stuff, I'm not going to go into detail but I have no worries about all that - they will pay and be held responsible if there are damages. We are booking direct (not via AirBnB or VRBO) so this would avoid the rating system. That said, there is a $49 damage protection option we can purchase (in lieu of opting for a $800 refundable security deposit). The damage protection supposedly covers up to $1000 and I believe is directly what the vacation rental mgmt company offers. We will probably just add that given the # of people we will have, versus risking not getting the full $800 deposit back and then having to potentially dispute and try to fight to claw back that money. $49 seems like a small price to pay. I've dropped talking about the belly band for the time being because it feels like beating a dead horse but if they decide to bring him I'm going to go back to insisting and pressing them on it.

[FINate]

They don't really want to go. A negative track record of them as dog owners has already been established - you know they're unlikely to force their dog to wear a belly band. It's already known that the dog doesn't do well in new environments. This sounds like an adventure in everyone being stressed and frustrated.

Just be honest with them. If they want to go, the dog can't come. It shouldn't matter if you're the one on the hook paying for pee damage (and it really is damage, odor and staining). If you're unwilling to have this difficult conversation with them you're essentially placing your comfort above the well being of the VRBO/Airbnb owner. Don't be that guy.

[jeromedawg]

They don't really want to go. A negative track record of them as dog owners has already been established - you know they're unlikely to force their dog to wear a belly band. It's already known that the dog doesn't do well in new environments. This sounds like an adventure in everyone being stressed and frustrated.

Just be honest with them. If they want to go, the dog can't come. It shouldn't matter if you're the one on the hook paying for pee damage (and it really is damage, odor and staining). If you're unwilling to have this difficult conversation with them you're essentially placing your comfort above the well being of the VRBO/Airbnb owner. Don't be that guy.

I told him it's going to be stressful having them bring this dog (and that if they did, they would have to leave him in the crate a majority of the time and put a band on him if they were to let him out) but beyond that I reminded them that I'll be liable for everything since the reservation is under my name. So I'm steering them away from it. My brother is somewhat receptive and keeps saying they'll just find some place to watch him. But he's also grasping at straws (on behalf of my SIL I'm sure, who isn't part of this current conversation and who he has yet to talk to about all this), asking if the dog can hang out with us outside like while we're eating lunch, dinner, etc. I was like "there's no yard space here. you'd have to be in the driveway if you really wanted to do that... so you're really going to go pick up your dog from the sitter every single time you want to eat lunch and dinner and then eat outside with him in the driveway just so that he can be there with you?" - total dog worship... it's insane. My SIL seems to be the one who is most blinded by this and ultra sensitive about the whole thing too, so I've pretty much left her out of these conversations so that the responsibility to convey everything is on my brother.

[GreenSheep]

I'm not usually a big fan of board-and-train programs, because I think a better bond is built when a dog is trained by the human(s) he/she will live with, but if they're going to board the dog somewhere anyway... if it wouldn't be too traumatic for this particular rescue dog, and if they are willing to continue the work put in by the trainer, this vacation might be a good opportunity for them to have the dog trained while they're away. That would allow them to feel like they're doing something good for the dog while also not disrupting the whole family vacation. And then they'd be able to go home to a better-behaved dog and continue training him from there. And the dog would start to learn the manners he desperately needs in order to live a fuller life, including trips with his humans.

[jeromedawg]

I'm not usually a big fan of board-and-train programs, because I think a better bond is built when a dog is trained by the human(s) he/she will live with, but if they're going to board the dog somewhere anyway... if it wouldn't be too traumatic for this particular rescue dog, and if they are willing to continue the work put in by the trainer, this vacation might be a good opportunity for them to have the dog trained while they're away. That would allow them to feel like they're doing something good for the dog while also not disrupting the whole family vacation. And then they'd be able to go home to a better-behaved dog and continue training him from there. And the dog would start to learn the manners he desperately needs in order to live a fuller life, including trips with his humans.

I agree and I think your suggestion makes perfect sense and would be the best thing they could probably do. However, I believe the root of the problem is that they don't believe their dog has any issues. He's a "good boy!" regardless of whatever he does that might be indicative of bad behavior... if there was something that went wrong it was because "Oh it was an accident. Good boy!" or there's always some excuse or seeking valid reasoning or explanation of why something happened rather than admitting that there might be a problem with the dog and that it should be addressed. There's quite a bit of positive reinforcement going on as well IMO from what I observed, to the point of coddling the dog. In any case, I don't know that they'll ever get it.... unless they actually bring him on a vacation with them and he does wreak havoc and "opens their eyes" but I have a feeling my SIL will still be blinded and her feelings of adopting a poor abused rescue dog will overtake her ability to acknowledge that he needs additional training. Also, laziness is a big factor for sure. Another related observation and pattern we've noticed with them (well, particularly her) is that it seems they have always had the tendency to give their two kids whatever they want and spoiling them.... like if you have the money (which they do), it's almost easier to not have to argue or reason with your kids as to why they can't have a bunch of candy, whatever toys they want, etc and so they take the route and cave in. I do think their kids are spoiled... so now the dog gets an overly excessive amount of this.

[former player]

There's nothing like a dog for exposing the owner's personality.

[jeromedawg]

There's nothing like a dog for exposing the owner's personality.

It's actually quite eye-opening. I realize there are times where people will bend over backwards for their dogs but this seems to go beyond the scope of that, where they are somehow expecting that other people will bend over backwards for their dog too. Anyway, my brother *says* they are going to leave the dog back or find sitting but he seems to be trying to straddle the fence too with some of his other requests/questions. I have a feeling this is going to be a point of contention whether the dog comes or not. I think it'll either be that A) My SIL isn't happy the dog isn't there or B) others won't be happy when the dog marks on their personal belongings and all over the vacation rental