EVs and Hybrids in cold higher altitude locations

[spartana]

I'll probably have to buy a car in 6 weeks or so and will be living in a place that gets cold at an altitude of around 7k -8k ft. I've heard EV batteries can take a big hit with range in the cold but not sure about hybrids. Also does driving in and up to higher elevations matter? I am currently driving a rented hybrid SUV and the gas mileage is pretty amazing but I mainly will only need a vehicle if going up or down the mountains once a week or less (a 90 minute drive or so one way) and for emergencies and longer road trips. Anyone have any experience with this? Nothing expensive like a Tesla though.

I'd also need to use snow tires and occasionally chains in heavier snowfall. Is that doable?

Edit to change "6 months" to 6 weeks.

[reeshau]

Batteries are batteries, so yes it will mastectomy hybrids, too.  I even notice it on chilly days down here!  Goes down from the normal 32 miles to mid-twenties on days when we have a soft freeze.  Pacifica hybrid.

[Paper Chaser]

Plug in Hybrids certainly do lose EV range in cold weather. Regular hybrids will just lose some mpg because they'll use the ICE more and it's going to be less efficient too.

Altitude has no bearing on EV range, but it does have an impact on a gasoline engine that would be used in a regular hybrid or PHEV, because they're almost all naturally aspirated. They'll suffer from lost power at altitude.

My PHEV supposedly has a 21 mile EV range. In hot weather (above 80F), after charging all night it can read as high as 23 miles. In cold weather (below 20F) after charging all night it can read as little as 16 miles. Those range estimates are before any energy intensive HVAC is used which will reduce range.

[RWD]

If EVs are fine in Norway (80% of new cars are all-electric) I think they'll be fine just about anywhere in the cold. You will need to adjust for the decreased range when it's cold, but it should be quite doable.

Elevation will have no effect on an all-electric vehicle, but hybrids will suffer as Paper Chaser pointed out.

[GilesMM]

Some EVs do quite well at low temps while others lose up to a third of their range. Select carefully!

[innkeeper77]

The batteries have lower range in the cold but pay attention to the heating system. If you EV or PHEV heats the cabin with resistive heat, that is basically a space heater and MASSIVELY impacts range. If they have a heat pump, heat becomes much more efficient.

On the other hand, an EV or hybrid will have much more power available at altitude- a gas engine will lose 30% of its power at 10,000 feet, while an electric motor works just fine.

[RWD]

How much range do you need?

[innkeeper77]

What is your normal range need? Is that 200 miles every time you use it, or just occasionally? My wife has a PHEV, and we barely ever use the engine due to the 50 mile range. I personally would go for a PHEV over a traditional hybrid today UNLESS you only use it for road trips where the extra battery weight is a detriment. Also remember that hybrids have traditionally lasted a lot longer when regularly driven and not allowed to sit for weeks at a time.

[Suze456]

Yes, there's a big difference in the range in plug in hybrids due to differences in temperature, ours is from 18km (winter temps e.g. 2 degrees Celsius) to 50km (summer temps e.g. 25 degrees Celsius).

About 20 degrees Celsius here today and the range is 36km.

[jeninco]

To answer your other question, buy good snow/winter (NOT all-season) three, mount them up on cheap steel rims. We change wheels on 3 cars (yeah, yeah, we're trying to figure out how to reduce the number, but just now we have 2-4 resident drivers) twice/year, and it's NBD. We do have to take one of them over to get the TPS system reset after we've swapped wheels.  We do a fair bit of winter snow/ice driving, and this combo really does the trick.

Our middle-aged Prius prime loses about 15% range in the winter, but since it's still a hybrid we're good to go.

[MayDay]

I'm in MN and have a hybrid (Honda insight).

I get ~50-55 mpg in the summer and ~35-40 in winter. It's driven more by ICE performance than battery performance from what I can tell. That is mostly highway driving - it's be better if it was at lower speeds I'm sure. Uphill does reduce mileage significantly, and it's super good going downhill obviously..... But the battery fills up going down a Midwest hill and then you aren't storing any more energy.

Overall I average 45-48 mpg and am very happy with the car.

[habanero]

Hadn't thought about the effect of heating - or AC - on a EV battery. I guess any aux use would reduce range. Looks like a hybrid would be a better choice for me at this point as I'd need a larger range. But Calif is planning to go all EV in 10 years (it won't happen unless there's a better infrastructure in place or there are affordable EVs for most commuters here) so looking at options. Will hate giving up my car-free life but at least I can still be car-light with limited usage.

I drive an EV in a place with around 5 months of winter-ish to winter conditions. It (Tesla Model S AWD) is the family's only car so we have no backup or alternative.

Pretty much the only difference between winter and other driving an EV is due to heating. Obv driving on an unplowed roat etc increases energy drain as well, but heating is the main thing. How it actually works in practise is somewat less obvious. For long-distance-driving energy use is around 25-30% higher than normal with temps in the 0 to -10 range (32F - 14F) it rarely gets colder where I live. Also I drive all winter with a ski box on the roof which increases aearodynamic drag, especially when driving at highway speeds. At aroud 50 Mph or slower I don't really notice much diff, but its noticable on freeways (aroun 75Mph in my case).

The thing that surprsied me the most is how much energy use goes up when driving relatively short distances, but with multiple stops en route. This means the car gets cold and needs to be reheated several times which massively increases energy consumption per distance.

One neat thing about EVs in the winter is that the heating works instantaniously. As it draws energy from the battery there is  no need to wait for the engine to get warm and you can easily pre-heat the car even if parked indoors as there is no exhaust from running the heater like you would with a Webasto or similar systems for an ICE.

I have a Tesla, and given the abundance of fast chargers along the main routes, range has never been a problem for me ever. The main differenca is that there are trips I could do without charging in the summer which requires charging en route in the winter, so apart from extra time (and cost, but I have "free. Forever" on superchargers) its not really much of a problem. In remote locations without charging infrastructure it might be more so, but it has never happened to me in over 8 years so far.

For regular commutes and driving locally its never an issue as you can charge the car at home every day anyways. I would never buy an EV if I didn't have charging option at home.

[daverobev]

Yeah cold temps are a double whammy, both in decreased battery efficiency and the need to heat yourself.

You can mitigate things, though. Regardless of what kind of heating system, just... not turning it on except to defrost windows, and instead making use of the heated seats, steering wheel etc makes a big difference.

Speed of driving makes a massive difference regardless, the slower the better.

Also, if you are doing a trip where the start and end are at different elevations... bear in mind that you will go high to low with no range issues at all, but the reverse will be true when going the other way.

If there are a few charging points along the route you'd be fine. Buying a car that just about works now is risky as it may end up not doing so as the battery degrades.

And, you really don't want to be regularly going below 20% (?) of charge, or charging to above 90% (?) as this will speed battery degradation.

So, if you have a car that's rated for 150 miles and want to drive 100 without recharging on the way, you're going to be cutting it fine if it's cold, uphill, you have the heater on, and you're trying to not fully charge/discharge the battery...

[habanero]

Also, at least on my car and I think it applies to all EVs,  fast charging speeds go down massively with a cold battery. It takes around an hour, maybe more, of driving for the battery to reach a termperature where it will accept charging at full capacity. This only applies to fast DC charging however and is not an issue at home. As long as the car gets plugged in just after driving its fine, but if it has been left for long enogh for the battery to cool down it won't charge at all for some time (energy is used to get temp of battery up). If this latter point applies to all makes I don't know, I've only had one EV in my life.

And you need to plan with a larger margin of error in the winter, if you end up in a queue or whatever keeping the car heated will drain energy.

I learnt pretty quickly how to estimate actual range and planning charging accordingly, it takes a little time getting used to, but once you've had an EV for some time you get the hang of it. At least where I live charging infrastructure is much, much better than it was when I bought the car so any unexpected event is generally easy to handle with an extra charging stop.

[joemandadman189]

maybe a rav 4 prime or a honda crv hybrid
a subaru may be good too

[StarBright]

Thanks everyone for all the info. I've looked up charging stations in my hood and there are 3 fast charge stations (DCA whatever that is) and several slow chargers around - mostly at hotels for guests (this is in a resort area). I will have an unheated garage and can put a charger in there but I do think the range limitations coupled with my more long distance driving needs (and driving up to 7k -8k ft in slow winter conditions) would be too much of a PITA for me.  Also possible corrosion issues from salted roads. Don't want that  if I had to buy a more expensive EV in order to get more range.  So I think an EV is out but a small used hybrid SUV would work well.

Warning! I've spent the last week looking at the used hybrid market, and like the rest of the car market right now - it is SUPER weird. Used vehicles are crazy overpriced.

A 3 year old rav4 hybrid had almost 60k miles and they were asking 35k for it. A 2020 corolla hybrid had 65k miles and they wanted 22k.

We were looking at a 2012 Prius for 16k. We were close to a deposit, but the shipping fees would have added another couple of thousand, which again - bonkers.

We put a deposit on a new corolla hybrid yesterday. We'll pay 24k plus doc fees and we'll get in a couple of months. I really wanted to buy a used car. But we've driven both of our other cars for 15+ years and for a couple of thousand difference we are just buying new.

[habanero]

. I've looked up charging stations in my hood and there are 3 fast charge stations (DCA whatever that is) and several slow chargers aroun

Probalby refers to DC charging (Direct Current) as opposed to AC (alternating current). At home you have AC and slow and semi-fast  EV chargers are AC while the fast/super/whatever they call 'em are DC chargers.

However, as long as you have charging option at home - which imo you abseloutely totally need - you won't ever use any of the publicly available chargers in your neighborhood. All daily charging is then done overnight and public chargers are really only relevant for road trips.

[BDWW]

I suspect this won't be an issue, as it sounds like you don't live in a place where it gets really cold, but just so it's out there for anyone curious.
We just bought a 2022 Highlander hybrid last year.  We had a cold snap of -30F to -40F for about 4 days straight this last winter. The Highlander did not like it. It went into limp mode and flashed "Visit dealer immediately" or something like that on the dash. We called the dealership to check on it. They confirmed that it wasn't able to use the hybrid part of the powertrain because it couldn't heat the battery properly.  After it warmed up, we cleared the codes and it's been fine since. 

All in all not a huge deal as it doesn't get that cold that often - usually winter lows here are ~-20F . So we were down a vehicle for a few days, but that kind of weather is also hard on gas cars, and diesel is generally a no-go at those temperatures too.

[daverobev]

So I just checked the Hertz website where I rented my current car and they have a 35% discount on EVs for the month of July if booked using a AAA. So I booked a small EV (Bolt) for 2 weeks. It was $166/week with out using any points. Tesla model 3 we $238 and a Polestar 2 (??) was around $210.. The Tesla Y was much higher though at around $450/week.

So I'm going to give the EV a try and see how it works in summer driving in the mountains. It's an approx 100 mile drive from the coast (where I drop off other car and pick it up the EV) to where I'll be living by then. Hertz has a fast charge station so will be fully charged but I have no idea how or where to do that myself but will figure it out. Should be fun! Bolts and the small EVs are probably to small for me but it said it had a range of 250 miles.

Fun!

I don't know how much they will show you, but if you do only one thing differently when you get it - put it into 'B' mode, or whatever it's called on the car you're renting, whenever you go to drive it - the maximum regenerative braking mode. I don't know about on other cars, but on ours it defaults to 'D' every time which means no regeneration. With 'B' mode you will barely touch the brake pedal once you get used to it, and it makes a big difference to the range. Might just be a VW thing that ours always starts in D, or a safety thing.. don't know.

Check out @RWD's journal for stuff on Polestars in case you're interested. Looks like ownership starts roughly https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/pursuing-rear-wheel-drive/msg2964817/#msg2964817

[RWD]

So I just checked the Hertz website where I rented my current car and they have a 35% discount on EVs for the month of July if booked using a AAA. So I booked a small EV (Bolt) for 2 weeks. It was $166/week with out using any points. Tesla model 3 we $238 and a Polestar 2 (??) was around $210.. The Tesla Y was much higher though at around $450/week.

So I'm going to give the EV a try and see how it works in summer driving in the mountains. It's an approx 100 mile drive from the coast (where I drop off other car and pick it up the EV) to where I'll be living by then. Hertz has a fast charge station so will be fully charged but I have no idea how or where to do that myself but will figure it out. Should be fun! Bolts and the small EVs are probably to small for me but it said it had a range of 250 miles.

I'm happy to hear you're giving an EV a test try! Check out PlugShare (there's also an app, of course) to find charging stations. The Bolt uses CCS for DC fast charging (DCFC) so turn on only "CCS/SAE" in the filters to see the applicable chargers. Or also J-1772 if you want to see slower AC chargers (sometimes called Level 2), which are good enough if you're going to be parked somewhere for a longer time (parking garages, hotels, etc.). There's also A Better Routeplanner which will automatically choose compatible/optimal stations to stop at when calculating directions (sometimes questionable choices though). Keep in mind the Bolt is the slowest DCFC charging EV you can buy today, so if your experience is good but you just wish it took half as long charging on a road trip then you could be well served by one of the many other current-gen EVs.

Check out @RWD's journal for stuff on Polestars in case you're interested. Looks like ownership starts roughly https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/pursuing-rear-wheel-drive/msg2964817/#msg2964817

To be fair almost all of the issues we had were related to working remotely with a dealership (nearest one ~500 miles away). We've had the Polestar 2 for a year and a half and have been very happy with actually owning and driving it. The [optional] app has been somewhat flaky, though it has gotten a lot more reliable lately. We've driven the Polestar (from Mississippi) as far as Wisconsin and North Carolina. And we're planning on driving it to Arizona next month.

[NorCal]

As an EV owner, yes you will have reduced range in the cold.  It's not a deal breaker though.  You honestly need less range than you think.  And you're starting each day with a full charge as long as you're charging at home.  I drove my EV when it was about -10 out.  It was clearly working harder, but it did just fine.  EV's have something like an 80-90% market share in Norway, which isn't exactly known as a warm country.

Make the heat-pump style HVAC system a consideration in your selection.  Tesla has these, which is part of the reason they have a lower cold weather range hit.  Kia & Hyandai have them as an option IIRC.  It's not a requirement if there's other brands you really like, but I'd make it a consideration.

I have chains for mine, but haven't had to use them yet.  Tesla sells them as a very over-priced accessory.  I hear you want to use the Tesla version if you do have a Tesla, just because of how narrow the gap between the wheel and body is. 

EV's actually perform marginally better at altitude.  ICE vehicles lose some power at higher elevation due to the thinner atmosphere and EV's don't have this handicap.  It's not something you notice on your day-to-day, but I know people who get really into offroading pay attention to it. 

My personal experience in Denver is just fine.  We have a Tesla, and took it up to the Breckenridge area for a week-long ski trip last winter.  This was a month after we bought it, so we were still learning the EV stuff.  I did just fine.  In fact, it will defrost frozen and snowed over windows WAY faster than an ICE vehicle, as it doesn't have to warm up an engine.  We ended up needing a mid-week charging stop that we hadn't anticipated, but it was otherwise uneventful. 

[reeshau]

With gas around $5/gal I can understand why. 

$5 gas??  Don't let your change in location confuse your internal gas price gauge.  Gas prices have been contributing to falling inflation lately.  I just had to refuel, after just a month; too much shuttling to the airport during goldilocks season (warm for the northerners, not hot-as-hell yet)  I paid $2.96 a gallon.  (Yes, with the Texas discount)

I don't discount the discussion on crazy used prices.  They will remain weird for a while;  the used market has been starved of its car lease input for 3 years now, and it won't get better with higher interest rates, and cautious bank lenders.  But, auto production is stabilizing, so new lots are getting full.

[Paper Chaser]

OP- "I need a vehicle to drive on some mountain trails once a week or so, and then do roadtrips. Nothing expensive like a Tesla though."

MMM Forum- "Buy this brand new vehicle for $40-80k!!"

[GhostSaver]

With gas around $5/gal I can understand why. 

$5 gas??  Don't let your change in location confuse your internal gas price gauge.  Gas prices have been contributing to falling inflation lately.  I just had to refuel, after just a month; too much shuttling to the airport during goldilocks season (warm for the northerners, not hot-as-hell yet)  I paid $2.96 a gallon.  (Yes, with the Texas discount)

I don't discount the discussion on crazy used prices.  They will remain weird for a while;  the used market has been starved of its car lease input for 3 years now, and it won't get better with higher interest rates, and cautious bank lenders.  But, auto production is stabilizing, so new lots are getting full.

Calif so yeah pretty high. And that's in my old location not in New one - which will be higher. Lots of taxes plus a "special summer fuel blend' that increase costs. The lowest price I've seen is $4.59 cash price at the local discount ARCO station and close to $6 at places like Mobil or Shell. And that's down in the OC/LA metro area so it's higher in the mountain resort areas. Crazy.

Since I don't actually own a car now (and haven't for close to 4 years) I rarely follow gas prices except like now - when I'm renting or looking to buy. Last time I bought a car was 2007 when I bought a 2001 Ford Ranger for my FIRE truck to take camping road trips with my dogs. Had it over 10 years and averaged about 8k miles/year. When it died I bought the used mini van I was renting but sold it not too long after and been without a car since 2019. Back then gas was around $2.50/gal and, other than road trips, I lived somewhere I could bike or walk everywhere. 

ETA: I just checked out Gas Buddy to.see what fuel costs are currently in the new mountain town and lowest was $4.89/gal. Here's the average:
                                 Regular/Premium
Yesterday's Avg.$5.09$5.72
Week Ago Avg.$5.09$5.72
Month Ago Avg.$5.09$5.72

You should see if a used Bolt ticks the boxes for you. Or maybe you could find a screaming deal on a used 2018-2019 Model 3 Long Range if you want a bit more range and AWD. I imagine prices on those are finally softening up a little with Tesla dropping the price on the new ones. I think either the Chevy or the Tesla will fit your use case. I drive a Bolt with good snows in suburban Park City and regularly take it down the pass to Salt Lake. It does fine with good snow tires. It helps with the range if you don't drive like a maniac or blast the heater. 200 real-world miles without charging will depend on how you drive, but it's certainly a reasonable expectation on either of those cars.

If neither of those works out for you, see if you can find a plug-in Mitsubishi Outlander for reasonable coin (that is the cheapest AWD compact SUV with a plug-in hybrid on the used market). If that's not the right value proposition, get the cheapest well-maintained RAV4 hybrid you can find (or the elusive AWD Prius!). Toyota sells shitloads of them for a reason.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[RWD]

. I've looked up charging stations in my hood and there are 3 fast charge stations (DCA whatever that is) and several slow chargers aroun

Probalby refers to DC charging (Direct Current) as opposed to AC (alternating current). At home you have AC and slow and semi-fast  EV chargers are AC while the fast/super/whatever they call 'em are DC chargers.

However, as long as you have charging option at home - which imo you abseloutely totally need - you won't ever use any of the publicly available chargers in your neighborhood. All daily charging is then done overnight and public chargers are really only relevant for road trips.

DOH! I guess I should have known that ;-).

Yes road trips in the US - especially in the more remote areas of the west - are my biggest concern with an EV besides being stuck on a mountain road. We don't have the charging station infrastructure you guys do and I imagine it might be hard unless you have a fairly long range EV.

Also, most of my road trips involve camping in some remote areas and staying in one place for a week or 2 at a time.  Even if I didn't use the car often, or at all, would it lose its charge? Maybe solar panels? I'd likely be pretty far from any recharging station.

Some camping areas are starting to have Level 2 chargers. You'll have to check PlugShare for the exact areas you'll be in for coverage.

Parking an EV for a couple weeks is not a problem at all. You might see 1 or 2 percent battery drop over that period. Though Teslas with their Sentry Mode active might drain faster.

OP- "I need a vehicle to drive on some mountain trails once a week or so, and then do roadtrips. Nothing expensive like a Tesla though."

MMM Forum- "Buy this brand new vehicle for $40-80k!!"

LOL!! Yeah I think Teslas are out of my budget - which is $20k cash all in (taxes, registration etc). But as one poster mentioned to me a new small EV like a Hyundai Kona comes with big tax breaks and incentives, especially in Calif,  that cwould lower the price by quite a bit. Worth looking into - especially when compared to high mileage used cars now.

ETA: tax breaks/credit on new EVs. Im currently in.the zero % tax bracket since part of my FIRE income isnd taxable or is deferred. Can you qualify for the tax credits if you pay no taxes?

If you could qualify for the tax incentives a brand new Bolt EV with no options/markup would come in under $20k after taxes and such. But if you have no tax liability you won't get anything from the federal $7.5k incentive. You could manufacture some tax liability by taking more distributions from your deferred accounts, but that's only helpful if having those funds converted is useful to you. There is a California incentive too but I couldn't tell with a 20-second Google search if that requires tax liability or not. There are couple alternatives. You can find used Bolt EVs for under $20k. Though the Bolt has only ever been offered as FWD so all that is probably just theoretical for you anyway. You want/need AWD, right? By the way, Hyundai Kona Electric is also FWD only, no AWD option. You can get an AWD version of the Kona hybrid though, I think.

There is also an incentive loophole. If you lease a new vehicle the dealer (or manufacturer?) can get the tax incentives and pass on the savings to you. But leasing is still expensive, so I don't expect that to be appealing to you either.

With that budget I don't think you'll be able to find an EV with AWD. The cheapest used I'm seeing is about $25k (Tesla Model S).

[RWD]

Okay, looking at 5-7 year old cars... There's a hybrid version of the Subaru Crosstrek that gets 29/33 mpg city/hwy EPA. A little bigger than a Bolt but smaller than a Rav4 or Equinox. The Rav4 hybrid should also be in your price range, 34/30 mpg city/hwy. Nissan Rogue hybrid gets 31/34 mpg city/hwy. I assume you don't want a sedan, but I'll point out the Infiniti Q50 had an AWD hybrid version that got 28/34 mpg city/hwy.

I'm not seeing many for sale under $20k, but in 2019 Toyota started making an AWD version of the Prius that gets an impressive 52/48 mpg city/hwy.

[RWD]

Okay, looking at 5-7 year old cars... There's a hybrid version of the Subaru Crosstrek that gets 29/33 mpg city/hwy EPA. A little bigger than a Bolt but smaller than a Rav4 or Equinox. The Rav4 hybrid should also be in your price range, 34/30 mpg city/hwy. Nissan Rogue hybrid gets 31/34 mpg city/hwy. I assume you don't want a sedan, but I'll point out the Infiniti Q50 had an AWD hybrid version that got 28/34 mpg city/hwy.

I'm not seeing many for sale under $20k, but in 2019 Toyota started making an AWD version of the Prius that gets an impressive 52/48 mpg city/hwy.

Thanks I'll check them out. I did just look at Rav4s and pretty much choked. A 2019 with 99k miles was almost $26k! The less expensive ones all had over 150K miles so. They were through dealers but private party were about the same. Guess Im going to have to adjust my price range up or my car needs down.

The 2019 Rav4 Hybrid gets a whopping 25% better fuel economy than the 2018 model. I think that's partly why they are still commanding a price premium. If you look at the 2017-2018 model year I think you can find sub-$20k. Though I estimate that the fuel savings of the 2019 would pay for itself after roughly 40k miles (at $5/gal gas prices).

[nereo]

MMM Forum- "Buy this brand new vehicle for $40-80k!!"

Who has been recommending that?

[NorCal]

MMM Forum- "Buy this brand new vehicle for $40-80k!!"

Who has been recommending that?

We can re-look the EV math.  Tesla's pricing has been all over the map, but has come down significantly.  You can currently get a Model 3 for about $40k before tax breaks.  Add in a $7,500 federal credit and likely a couple thousand in state incentives (CO just went to $5k), and it's a ~$30k car. 

You could still get a lower total cost of ownership with a Prius or a used Fit.  But a base model is hardly a massive facepuch worthy purchase it was a year ago.  Particularly after you factor in gas and maintenance savings. 

[Paper Chaser]

MMM Forum- "Buy this brand new vehicle for $40-80k!!"

Who has been recommending that?

Doing a quick scan of the thread I see recommendations for a Rav 4 Prime ($43k), CRV hybrid($33k), Outlander PHEV ($40k) and EVs with heat pump HVAC systems (Which are too new and premium to find under $40k without tons of miles).

There has also been discussion (if not outright recommendations) regarding the Polestar 2 ($47k) and various Teslas (Cheapest Model 3 was just cut from $40k to $38k)

All of those prices listed are starting MSRP. Many of them are difficult to find available for those prices.

OP is FIRE with very little taxable income. They don't qualify for tax credits, and they specifically mentioned not wanting to spend Tesla money so suggesting new hybrids or EVs seems to miss the point to me.
OP prefers to walk or ride their bike for short local trips. The EV would excel here, but OP wouldn't likely use it, so no benefit. The financial and environmental benefits of an EV accrue as miles are driven. If you drive very little, you gain very little.
The new vehicle will be used for some short mountain driving and road trips. Paying $40k+ for any new vehicle makes no financial sense for this use case of short trips mixed with infrequent long drives. A used hybrid probably fits the bill better than anything else as they can be found relatively cheap and would have no range anxiety or charging infrastructure concerns for OPs road trips.

[nereo]

Ok, so no one is recommending spending $80k on this thread. Also don’t see anyone suggesting these other models to OP if she can’t qualify for the credits and rebates either, which was only recently discussed.

[Paper Chaser]

Ok, so no one is recommending spending $80k on this thread. Also don’t see anyone suggesting these other models to OP if she can’t qualify for the credits and rebates either, which was only recently discussed.

Nothing like nitpicking semantics at the crack of dawn... Is hyperbole no longer allowed here? Can people not read between the lines?

OP is a pretty well known poster here. It says "fired@36" right under her avatar.
I can excuse not connecting the dots with OPs income level, but the very first post of this thread says "nothing expensive like a Tesla."
The multiple mentions from Tesla owners in this thread don't specify which year or model, but they can easily be $80k vehicles:


*Yes, the prices in that chart are a year old and don't reflect recent price cuts, but it doesn't materially change the larger point which is that OP doesn't want to spend $40k or more on a vehicle. And it makes very little sense to do that with her intended usage.

[JLee]

Ok, so no one is recommending spending $80k on this thread. Also don’t see anyone suggesting these other models to OP if she can’t qualify for the credits and rebates either, which was only recently discussed.

Nothing like nitpicking semantics at the crack of dawn... Is hyperbole no longer allowed here? Can people not read between the lines?

OP is a pretty well known poster here. It says "fired@36" right under her avatar.
I can excuse not connecting the dots with OPs income level, but the very first post of this thread says "nothing expensive like a Tesla."
The multiple mentions from Tesla owners in this thread don't specify which year or model, but they can easily be $80k vehicles:

*Yes, the prices in that chart are a year old and don't reflect recent price cuts, but it doesn't materially change the larger point which is that OP doesn't want to spend $40k or more on a vehicle. And it makes very little sense to do that with her intended usage.

lol, this isn't "nitpicking semantics." In a discussion involving finances / numbers / math, wild exaggerations with no bearing on the actual discussion have no place.

^^^Yes unfortunately I dont qualify for the credits so even if I can afford a more expensive EV or hybrid (paid out of the stash) I wouldn't buy one as its not really financially advantageous for me or TBH  something I want. However I can see now how getting something like a lower cost used EV with a more limited range might not work well either BUT Im going to go look at some used  ones today (dreading the car dealerships) to get a better idea. Things like the Kia Soul EV (not a fan but good price) and Kona, some Hyundai's and a VW e-Gulf etc. and see if those will work. But I agree a used hybrid or 4 cylinder ICE SUV will likely work best.

It's also nice to know an EV or hybrid battery can handle colder weather and higher elevations without losing to much range or quitting mid-way up a snowy mountain road.

ETA: I guess I should have put in my price range other then "nothing expensive like a Tesla" in the OP to better clarify. My bad.

Would you have any interest in generating some income for a year in order to get some tax credit? Some parts of CA have brought a new Model 3 down to $19,560.

[reeshau]

^^^ I checked and it doesn't appear I'd qualify for the tax credits unless I up my income by ALOT so I'd likely miss out on that. Although Calif has one for used EVs and hybrid for $4k that may not be income tax dependent.

I bought my hybrid after FIRE, and so was in the same boat as you.  I absolutely used it to do a turbocharged Roth conversion.

[Paper Chaser]

Ok, so no one is recommending spending $80k on this thread. Also don’t see anyone suggesting these other models to OP if she can’t qualify for the credits and rebates either, which was only recently discussed.

Nothing like nitpicking semantics at the crack of dawn... Is hyperbole no longer allowed here? Can people not read between the lines?

OP is a pretty well known poster here. It says "fired@36" right under her avatar.
I can excuse not connecting the dots with OPs income level, but the very first post of this thread says "nothing expensive like a Tesla."
The multiple mentions from Tesla owners in this thread don't specify which year or model, but they can easily be $80k vehicles:

*Yes, the prices in that chart are a year old and don't reflect recent price cuts, but it doesn't materially change the larger point which is that OP doesn't want to spend $40k or more on a vehicle. And it makes very little sense to do that with her intended usage.

lol, this isn't "nitpicking semantics." In a discussion involving finances / numbers / math, wild exaggerations with no bearing on the actual discussion have no place.

Is $40-80k a valid price range for Teslas? Didn't the OP say nothing expensive like a Tesla? Why are we arguing over this?

[GhostSaver]

^^^Yes unfortunately I dont qualify for the credits so even if I can afford a more expensive EV or hybrid (paid out of the stash) I wouldn't buy one as its not really financially advantageous for me or TBH  something I want. However I can see now how getting something like a lower cost used EV with a more limited range might not work well either BUT Im going to go look at some used  ones today (dreading the car dealerships) to get a better idea. Things like the Kia Soul EV (not a fan but good price) and Kona, some Hyundai's and a VW e-Gulf etc. and see if those will work. But I agree a used hybrid or 4 cylinder ICE SUV will likely work best.

It's also nice to know an EV or hybrid battery can handle colder weather and higher elevations without losing to much range or quitting mid-way up a snowy mountain road.

ETA: I guess I should have put in my price range other then "nothing expensive like a Tesla" in the OP to better clarify. My bad.

I also live at altitude in the mountains. If you want an AWD EV with the kind of range you described, a Tesla Model 3 in AWD trim can be had for 25k used if you find a cheap one. At this price, you're looking at high miles or salvage titles, but it is the only volume-produced EV that gets you the kind of range you discussed and AWD.

For between 10 and 20 grand:
Used Chevy Bolt gets you big EV range, though without AWD.
Used Outlander PHEV gets you AWD and a PHEV.
Used AWD Prius gets you 50mpg along with AWD.
Used RAV4 hybrid gets you AWD and mpg in the low 30s.

I drive a Bolt but we are a 2 car household and have a gas guzzling beater 4x4 for days when it's deep and I have to get to work. If we cut down to 1 car, the AWD Prius would be on my short list.

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[GilesMM]

 Thanks that is more my price range and nice to know they do well at your cold elevation location. My town doesn't get THAT cold or snowy (0 to 30s in winter with sunnybwarmer days and about 130 inches of snow) so likely to do good. I wonder how miles are on the cars to be that low cost.   

I went and looked at several low mileage under $20k used EVs today. Didn't test drive any though. Too small for me so will go look at some SUVs next. Roomier and can carry all my camping stuff, bikes, etc and I can sleep in It.   It seems that most would work well. Will look at hybrids but likely stick with a used ICE and try to drive less to reduce fuel costs.



ICE makes more sense for your case.  You won't drive enough for an EV or even hybrid to pencil out. If you want to carry gear through snow, something like a Toyota Highlander would be a good bet.  They run forever so a used one with 100k miles is not a gamble.

For example, [size=78%]https://www.kargenie.com/used/Toyota/2012-Toyota-Highlander-a72964960a0e0a9333590c123785e16d.htm[/size]

[JLee]

So drove the hybrid all over the mountains and it was great (as I expected). No real big mountain passes here to get into the town from the (highest is less than 9000 ft) and it wasn't cold (high 30s at night) since its summer. Will try the rental EV next week which, depending on which one they give me, will have an approx 250 mile range. Looks like there are several charge stations around town and in the other mountain communities here. Still leaning towards an ICE or hybrid but will be worth trying an EV since gas is so expensive here.

Will you have the ability to charge at home?  As much as I love my EVs I would not recommend one if public chargers were the only option.

[reeshau]

So drove the hybrid all over the mountains and it was great (as I expected). No real big mountain passes here to get into the town from the (highest is less than 9000 ft) and it wasn't cold (high 30s at night) since its summer. Will try the rental EV next week which, depending on which one they give me, will have an approx 250 mile range. Looks like there are several charge stations around town and in the other mountain communities here. Still leaning towards an ICE or hybrid but will be worth trying an EV since gas is so expensive here.

Will you have the ability to charge at home?  As much as I love my EVs I would not recommend one if public chargers were the only option.

This could be another factor favoring a hybrid, if you otherwise like the EV.  Upgrading to support a level 2 charger at home would be significant, starting with my fully-loaded breaker box.  I just use the included level 1 charger.  There are differences of opinion on this, but I have used it exclusively (except on road trips) for 2 years, with no problems.  Does a good job charging overnight, even in hot weather, where it complains (and charges more slowly) but does the job.

I may get a 3rd party one, just to hang it neatly on the wall.  It's a bit messy on the floor.  I was also think of just getting a hose reel; maybe one with a flat or platform at the top for the box...

I say this, but will disclaim that I am fairly sloppy as to the timing; I just plug it in when I get home.  Our utility has no differences in cost for different times of the day., because...Texas.  The Pacifica definitely has a timer that you can set the charging times with--even set it with an app.

[JLee]

So drove the hybrid all over the mountains and it was great (as I expected). No real big mountain passes here to get into the town from the (highest is less than 9000 ft) and it wasn't cold (high 30s at night) since its summer. Will try the rental EV next week which, depending on which one they give me, will have an approx 250 mile range. Looks like there are several charge stations around town and in the other mountain communities here. Still leaning towards an ICE or hybrid but will be worth trying an EV since gas is so expensive here.

Will you have the ability to charge at home?  As much as I love my EVs I would not recommend one if public chargers were the only option.

This could be another factor favoring a hybrid, if you otherwise like the EV.  Upgrading to support a level 2 charger at home would be significant, starting with my fully-loaded breaker box.  I just use the included level 1 charger.  There are differences of opinion on this, but I have used it exclusively (except on road trips) for 2 years, with no problems.  Does a good job charging overnight, even in hot weather, where it complains (and charges more slowly) but does the job.

I may get a 3rd party one, just to hang it neatly on the wall.  It's a bit messy on the floor.  I was also think of just getting a hose reel; maybe one with a flat or platform at the top for the box...

I say this, but will disclaim that I am fairly sloppy as to the timing; I just plug it in when I get home.  Our utility has no differences in cost for different times of the day., because...Texas.  The Pacifica definitely has a timer that you can set the charging times with--even set it with an app.

Cold weather is super problematic for slow charging, at least with Teslas -- I had a friend trying to use a 120v charger in winter in NJ and it made no progress. The battery heating/conditioning took as much or more power than was available from the wall outlet.

[JLee]

So drove the hybrid all over the mountains and it was great (as I expected). No real big mountain passes here to get into the town from the (highest is less than 9000 ft) and it wasn't cold (high 30s at night) since its summer. Will try the rental EV next week which, depending on which one they give me, will have an approx 250 mile range. Looks like there are several charge stations around town and in the other mountain communities here. Still leaning towards an ICE or hybrid but will be worth trying an EV since gas is so expensive here.

Will you have the ability to charge at home?  As much as I love my EVs I would not recommend one if public chargers were the only option.

Yes I have a garage so can probably put one in there. Although I don't knoa if I'd need to since someone above said they don't lose their charge very fast and I wouldn't be driving everyday - maybe only once a week or so  but for longer trips so would have to recharge on the way back home and probably once I was home.

BTW what does it cost to install a fast/faster charger then the one it comes with? Can you just use the existing slow charger directly into your current home wiring system like plugging in a fridge or washer without having to upgrade anything? The garage is unheated and it gets pretty cold at night in winter.

Most portable chargers that come with EVs (if it comes with one) can do 32 amps at 240v, which is plenty. You'd typically plug that into a NEMA 14-50 outlet on a 50 amp 240v circuit  The 120v / normal outlet situation may be problematic in cold weather.

If you do run a 14-50 outlet, make sure to get an industrial grade one like Cooper/Eaton 5745N or Hubbell HBL9450A.  Box store, e.g. Leviton, aren't properly designed for sustained high amperage load and can literally melt - this is what happened to mine:

[RWD]

BTW what does it cost to install a fast/faster charger then the one it comes with? Can you just use the existing slow charger directly into your current home wiring system like plugging in a fridge or washer without having to upgrade anything? The garage is unheated and it gets pretty cold at night in winter.

I believe most EVs come with a 120V cable as well that can just plug into a standard outlet. It takes much longer to charge, but we've been living with just that for a year and a half without issue. Since we don't drive much we only plug it in to charge once or twice a month.

We're moving next month though and my wife will be commuting up to ~130 miles per week. So we'll be installing a NEMA 14-50 outlet so we can get a full charge on any given night (probably will charge once per week). I'm expecting roughly $500, give or take. Price can vary based on distance from your electrical panel. I've also heard some electricians will price gouge if they hear it's going to be used for an EV charger.

You may be able to get some or all of the charger install costs rebated.
https://driveclean.ca.gov/search-incentives

[FINate]

To answer your other question, buy good snow/winter (NOT all-season) three, mount them up on cheap steel rims. We change wheels on 3 cars (yeah, yeah, we're trying to figure out how to reduce the number, but just now we have 2-4 resident drivers) twice/year, and it's NBD. We do have to take one of them over to get the TPS system reset after we've swapped wheels.  We do a fair bit of winter snow/ice driving, and this combo really does the trick.

Our middle-aged Prius prime loses about 15% range in the winter, but since it's still a hybrid we're good to go.

This^^^ Get something like Blizzak, X-Ice, or similar on cheap dedicated steel rims. Swap them seasonally, either yourself if you're okay with DIYing it, or a tire place. We run Blizzaks during winter and they're amazing. They drive very similar to all seasons on dry/wet pavement (very slight tread squirm, not very noticeable) and are fine to drive to lower warmer elevations, though don't run them during summer. This spring we had a late season snow event after I had swapped to all seasons and the difference in winter driving performance is substantial.

[Paper Chaser]

Can you just use the existing slow charger directly into your current home wiring system like plugging in a fridge or washer without having to upgrade anything? The garage is unheated and it gets pretty cold at night in winter.

Level 1 charging uses a regular outlet and typically adds around 4 miles of EV range per hour of charge.
Level 2 will require a 240v outlet with dedicated circuit breaker, and typically adds 12-15 miles of EV range per hour that it's charging.
Level 1 and 2 charging is typically done with a J1772 connector, and the car should have the charge cord included. If you want a different "Level" charge cord they're readily available for a couple hundred bucks on the internet.

Level 3 charging is "DC fast charging" that you may find in public. Nobody has this at home. This uses either the Tesla NACS or  the CCS connector (which is just a J1772 with the addition of two DC charging pins).

I've used level 1 charging to replenish my PHEV overnight for 5 years now. It's been fine in both heated and unheated/uninsulated Midwestern garages. My newest house has a Level 2 charger where a dryer used to be installed in the garage. It's a  luxury if I'm making quick trips after my commute or something, but otherwise it's needlessly fast for overnight charging.

[gaja]

The biggest challenge is not the range, you can always find some electricity, and if you are going both up and down in elevation the car will recharge some of the battery. The biggest challenge is the need to 4WD/AWD. There are very few EVs who have this, and the hybrids are generally larger, more expensive, and use more fuel.

Are you sure you *need* AWD/4WD? In my experience, an EV with good spiked winter tyres will be able to drive almost anywhere. The weight distribution ensures better grip on slippery roads, and with the lack of gearing you can drive more smoothly. I've been driving between the east and west coast of Norway all winter, and the mountain passes can be quite challenging. It was easier with the old 4x4 farm truck, but manageble with the EV as soon as we got spiked tyres. But on farm roads, we do need the 4x4. There is no chance to get the EV up the very steep, badly plowed, gravel road in winter time. I've driven a lot of steep roads in winter time, including the eagle road to Geiranger. Our current farm road is the only place I've *needed* 4x4.

[RWD]

The biggest challenge is the need to 4WD/AWD. There are very few EVs who have this [...]

What? AWD is extremely common on EVs. It's easy to implement because you don't need the additional hardware linking the front and rear drive wheels.
Audi Q4 e-tron, BMW i4, Cadillac Lyriq, Fisker Ocean, Ford Mustang Mach-E, Genesis GV60, Hyundai IONIQ 5 and 6, Kia EV6, Lexus RZ 450e, Mercedes EQB, Nissan ARIYA, Polestar 2, Subaru Solterra, Tesla Model 3 and Y, Toyota bZ4X, VinFast VF 8, Volkswagen ID.4, Volvo EX30, C40, and XC40. And that's just the ones sold in the United States that have 200+ mile range for less than $60k MSRP. And I also left out some upcoming vehicles too. Basically every EV with an MSRP at/above $40k has AWD available (and several cheaper ones too).

[RWD]

The biggest challenge is the need to 4WD/AWD. There are very few EVs who have this [...]

What? AWD is extremely common on EVs. It's easy to implement because you don't need the additional hardware linking the front and rear drive wheels.
Audi Q4 e-tron, BMW i4, Cadillac Lyriq, Fisker Ocean, Ford Mustang Mach-E, Genesis GV60, Hyundai IONIQ 5 and 6, Kia EV6, Lexus RZ 450e, Mercedes EQB, Nissan ARIYA, Polestar 2, Subaru Solterra, Tesla Model 3 and Y, Toyota bZ4X, VinFast VF 8, Volkswagen ID.4, Volvo EX30, C40, and XC40. And that's just the ones sold in the United States that have 200+ mile range for less than $60k MSRP. And I also left out some upcoming vehicles too. Basically every EV with an MSRP at/above $40k has AWD available (and several cheaper ones too).

Do they make a cheap 4 x 4 Suzuki Samauri type version in an EV with a long range? Joking but I lived in Alaska for 4 years in the 90s and that's what I drove there - with the soft removable top! Drove it from Maine to Alaska, used it there 4 years then took it to SoCal. It actually did great although certainly not comfy or luxurious but got good gas mileage. Maybe I just need a small compact old beater 4 x 4 mountain car for winter/off road driving and just continue renting hybrids for longer road trips where I need something dependable with longer range and leave the EV idea off the table until I live somewhere else in a few years.

Well the Citroën Oli (concept) looks pretty close but it won't be available until 2030 and almost certainly not in the US either...

[GhostSaver]

The biggest challenge is the need to 4WD/AWD. There are very few EVs who have this [...]

What? AWD is extremely common on EVs. It's easy to implement because you don't need the additional hardware linking the front and rear drive wheels.
Audi Q4 e-tron, BMW i4, Cadillac Lyriq, Fisker Ocean, Ford Mustang Mach-E, Genesis GV60, Hyundai IONIQ 5 and 6, Kia EV6, Lexus RZ 450e, Mercedes EQB, Nissan ARIYA, Polestar 2, Subaru Solterra, Tesla Model 3 and Y, Toyota bZ4X, VinFast VF 8, Volkswagen ID.4, Volvo EX30, C40, and XC40. And that's just the ones sold in the United States that have 200+ mile range for less than $60k MSRP. And I also left out some upcoming vehicles too. Basically every EV with an MSRP at/above $40k has AWD available (and several cheaper ones too).

Do they make a cheap 4 x 4 Suzuki Samauri type version in an EV with a long range? Joking but I lived in Alaska for 4 years in the 90s and that's what I drove there - with the soft removable top! Drove it from Maine to Alaska, used it there 4 years then took it to SoCal. It actually did great although certainly not comfy or luxurious but got good gas mileage. Maybe I just need a small compact old beater 4 x 4 mountain car for winter/off road driving and just continue renting hybrids for longer road trips where I need something dependable with longer range and leave the EV idea off the table until I live somewhere else in a few years.

I have a friend who drives a Samurai around up here. It is a fun little car. Sadly, there are no used 4x4 evs that have depreciated to reasonable values in the used market. And seemingly everything sold in volume in the United States is some ridiculous 22' long land yacht these days.

I've got half a mind to import a Subaru Sambar ...

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[JLee]

A couple more questions about EV batteries: How long before they have to be replaced (if ever) and is there a difference in battery quality between say a used Tesla and a used Leaf or the sort? I keep reading about reduced battery life on the lower end  EVs as well as reduced range over the length of ownership. Since it sounds like colder weather or living/driving in higher elevation doesn't effect EVs much I'm wondering if it would effect longevity of EV batteries.

Also I've found very few charging stations around, and most are just a couple at stores which are always in use and may not be moved for a couple of hours, or the designated Tesla places which also are always full but I assume they charge fast. So is there a way to "reserve" a charging station while travelling? If I was on a road trip from LA to Coloradio for instance in a not-a-Tesla can you book one of the two charge stations at the local Wal-Mart or small town charge station beforehand?

Also changed my OP from "needing to buy in 6 months" to what was suppose to read 6 weeks.

Nope, they're first come first serve.  The non-Tesla charging network is notoriously unreliable - I'm 1 for....8, I think, in first-attempt-works fast chargers, and even then I've had the one that "worked" giving me ~half of its rated speed. 

The most problematic batteries have been the early Leaf models that didn't have battery conditioning -- without an appropriate method to moderate battery temperature, the lifespan of the pack is dramatically reduced.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/

[Psychstache]

So drove the hybrid all over the mountains and it was great (as I expected). No real big mountain passes here to get into the town from the (highest is less than 9000 ft) and it wasn't cold (high 30s at night) since its summer. Will try the rental EV next week which, depending on which one they give me, will have an approx 250 mile range. Looks like there are several charge stations around town and in the other mountain communities here. Still leaning towards an ICE or hybrid but will be worth trying an EV since gas is so expensive here.

Will you have the ability to charge at home?  As much as I love my EVs I would not recommend one if public chargers were the only option.

Yes I have a garage so can probably put one in there. Although I don't knoa if I'd need to since someone above said they don't lose their charge very fast and I wouldn't be driving everyday - maybe only once a week or so  but for longer trips so would have to recharge on the way back home and probably once I was home.

BTW what does it cost to install a fast/faster charger then the one it comes with? Can you just use the existing slow charger directly into your current home wiring system like plugging in a fridge or washer without having to upgrade anything? The garage is unheated and it gets pretty cold at night in winter.

I had a 'Level 2' charging outlet (240v nema 14-50) installed for about $1100 after factoring in the tax credit. Breaker box was on the opposite side of the house from the garage so they had to run a lot of wiring.