European Auto Reliability

[chesebert]

Looking to purchase a used car by year end and this will be my only car for a family of 3. Would like to know among the cars descried below which has the best reliability for the years and models indicated. Ideally the car would last until 150k+ miles with only regular maintenance and planned service items (e.g., suspension joints). I plan to drive less than 5k a year. Fuel economy will not be a problem given the planned miles traveled.

Relatively one-time high repair bill (e.g., 5k transmission replacement) will not be a problem as well as time in the shop (zip car, uber and public transportation are all very convenient).I may purchase an extended warranty for the first few years to cover any unknown/latent problem.

My search parameters are as follows:
1. model year: 2000-2011
2. millage: less than 90k
3. style: wagon
4. drive-train: AWD (can live with FWD or RWD if no AWD)
5. engine: V6, I6, or V8
6. 0-60: 8 sec or less
7. transmission: automatic
8: cost: 30k or less (cash purchase)

Brand/Model:
Audi A3/S3 wagon
Audi A4/S4 wagon
Audi A6/S6 wagon
BMW 3 series wagon
BMW 5 series wagon
Cady CTS wagon
Cady CTS V wagon
MB E class wagon
MB E class AMG wagon
Volvo V series wagon (T5 or R type)
VW passat wagon

[alsoknownasDean]

This is a joke, right?

Buy a $5000 Camry.

[daverobev]

http://www.carcomplaints.com/

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

Everything I see on here about Audis and VWs is bad.

[Duchess]

Everything I see on here about Audis and VWs is bad.

Really? Here in the UK, German- and Scandinavian-made cars are usually regarded as being very well made. However, they don't represent good value for money, at least not over here anyway. I don't know about prices in the US. (But that's not what the OP asked about.)

It's Italian, French and Spanish manufacturers that have a bad reputation for reliability.

[CowboyAndIndian]

The worst car I have owned was the BMW 325xi. I will never buy a german car!

Buy the Toyota or Honda or even a Ford whose quality has improved.

[lbmustache]

Avoid the "335" engine in BMWs, 2.0T in VWs (seems to be better in Audis), MB is a toss-up, etc.

Also, I think you are on the wrong forum asking for a gas guzzling luxury wagon :) Try: http://forums.vwvortex.com/forumdisplay.php?1-The-Car-Lounge

Everyone there loves wagons and German cars.

[Jack]

2003 VW Golf or Jetta Wagon TDI with manual transmission + about $500 in mods (ECU chip, injector nozzles) to make it (easily!) sub-8.0 seconds 0-60. Or if you insist on a damn slushbox, a 2004-2006 instead.

(Going diesel is the only forgivable reason for asking about German cars on this forum.)

[acroy]

Cady CTS V wagon

If you can justify it, get it. It's 'just money'. The V wagon is something special.

OK I'll go back to my muscle-car forum now......

[ketchup]

The only vehicle on your list I'm familiar with at all are Volvo V-series R wagons.  They are solid, but maintenance is expensive.  Stay away from model years after 1998.  Should be able to find one with 150k or less for no more than a few grand.

EDIT: Woah, definitely mis-skimmed your post.  Really just saw "150k" and "5k" and the vehicle list and connected the dots incorrectly.  I'm probably not very helpful.

[JLee]

If you can find a CTS-V wagon for 30k or less, teach me your skills...

[Debts_of_Despair]

OP, it's almost if you tried to put together a list of notoriously unreliable cars.  That list is horrendous!  Not only will you have the large 5k repairs to deal with, they will nickel and dime you to death.

Go with a CR-V, RAV4, or if you are really feeling fancy and can live without a wagon, Acura TL.

[Debts_of_Despair]

Avoid the "335" engine in BMWs, 2.0T in VWs (seems to be better in Audis), MB is a toss-up, etc.

Also, I think you are on the wrong forum asking for a gas guzzling luxury wagon :) Try: http://forums.vwvortex.com/forumdisplay.php?1-The-Car-Lounge

Everyone there loves wagons and German cars.

LOL!  I've spent way too much time there.  If you aren't spending 50% of your net pay on a 0%/72 month loan, you are looked down on.  I came here to get away from that!

[chesebert]

Avoid the "335" engine in BMWs, 2.0T in VWs (seems to be better in Audis), MB is a toss-up, etc.

Also, I think you are on the wrong forum asking for a gas guzzling luxury wagon :) Try: http://forums.vwvortex.com/forumdisplay.php?1-The-Car-Lounge

Everyone there loves wagons and German cars.

Yeah, that would be the right forum. I was going to post in a BMW forum, but I was afraid the answers would be partial to BMW (nothing wrong with that).

Cady CTS V wagon

If you can justify it, get it. It's 'just money'. The V wagon is something special.

OK I'll go back to my muscle-car forum now......

Not happening. Won't consider anything over 30k, and v wagon is for sure over 30k.

This is a joke, right?

Buy a $5000 Camry.

I am basically buying an all-in-one weekend toy for myself and transporter for wife and kid. The beauty of having a good sized “stache” and not needing to drive for work. I basically do not even consider gas mileage in my calculus.

[chesebert]

OP, it's almost if you tried to put together a list of notoriously unreliable cars.  That list is horrendous!  Not only will you have the large 5k repairs to deal with, they will nickel and dime you to death.

Go with a CR-V, RAV4, or if you are really feeling fancy and can live without a wagon, Acura TL.

The plan is to pick one up from carmax and get the extended warranty, and fix whatever that needs to be fixed before the warranty expires. Seems pretty solid to me. I have owned 5 series for over 10 years and I am familiar with German "engineering." Fun to drive though.

[JLee]

Probably not quite what you're looking for, but a Lexus GX470 SUV with the Sport package (which provides KDSS, basically massive swaybars that disconnect automatically offroad) hits 60 under 8 seconds (7.1 per zeroto60times.com) and is well under your 30k budget. Full time AWD, with a proper transfer case and low range/4WD.  Fuel efficiency sucks.  It has 4Runner offroad capability and handles suprisingly well on road (thanks to the aforementioned massive swaybars), and has a bulletproof Tundra/Landcruiser drivetrain (engine from the Tundra and transmission from the 100-series Landcruiser). I would go 2005 or newer (05 has a few more ponies), 2007 if you want factory nav (it was refreshed in 2007).

[BlueMR2]

This is a joke, right?

Buy a $5000 Camry.

This.  The *only* thing on that list with a good reputation is the Volvo.  European cars in general tend to be fragile and very expensive to fix.  Avoid as a general rule.

Extended warranty?  Are you on the right site here?  The normal bundled used car warranty should be plenty for you to figure out if there's anything they missed in the pre-sale.

[Debts_of_Despair]

OP, it's almost if you tried to put together a list of notoriously unreliable cars.  That list is horrendous!  Not only will you have the large 5k repairs to deal with, they will nickel and dime you to death.

Go with a CR-V, RAV4, or if you are really feeling fancy and can live without a wagon, Acura TL.

The plan is to pick one up from carmax and get the extended warranty, and fix whatever that needs to be fixed before the warranty expires. Seems pretty solid to me. I have owned 5 series for over 10 years and I am familiar with German "engineering." Fun to drive though.

Ah, OK, then you know what you are in for.  I gave up that "engineering" for lower operating costs and reliability

[JLee]

This is a joke, right?

Buy a $5000 Camry.

This.  The *only* thing on that list with a good reputation is the Volvo.  European cars in general tend to be fragile and very expensive to fix.  Avoid as a general rule.

Extended warranty?  Are you on the right site here?  The normal bundled used car warranty should be plenty for you to figure out if there's anything they missed in the pre-sale.

The only chronic problem I'm aware of with the (2nd gen) CTS-V is supercharger failure, which is warranteed by GM for 10 years / 120k miles. As for first gens, they have problems with motor mounts and differential mounts, but those are relatively inexpensive and an easy DIY. The engine/transmission is bulletproof (GM LS motor and Tremec T-56 transmission).

[dudde_devaru]

5K miles an year i.e 100miles/weekend is too less considering your target of 8sec car!

Follow MCM and buy a SuperGramps wagon. Frugal fun that is :D

[chesebert]

This is a joke, right?

Buy a $5000 Camry.

This.  The *only* thing on that list with a good reputation is the Volvo.  European cars in general tend to be fragile and very expensive to fix.  Avoid as a general rule.

Extended warranty?  Are you on the right site here?  The normal bundled used car warranty should be plenty for you to figure out if there's anything they missed in the pre-sale.

I think (need to do the math) I will break even with an extended warranty assuming I pick up one of the above-mentioned models. For "normal" cars, extended warranty is stupid and you get raped by the underwriter. However, German "engineering" guarantees things will go wrong from time to time and it will be expensive to fix (i.e., Germans tend to engineer unnecessarily complicated solutions to easy problems).

[Jack]

OP, it's almost if you tried to put together a list of notoriously unreliable cars.  That list is horrendous!  Not only will you have the large 5k repairs to deal with, they will nickel and dime you to death.

Go with a CR-V, RAV4, or if you are really feeling fancy and can live without a wagon, Acura TL.

Probably not quite what you're looking for, but a Lexus GX470 SUV with the Sport package (which provides KDSS, basically massive swaybars that disconnect automatically offroad) hits 60 under 8 seconds (7.1 per zeroto60times.com) and is well under your 30k budget. Full time AWD, with a proper transfer case and low range/4WD.  Fuel efficiency sucks.  It has 4Runner offroad capability and handles suprisingly well on road (thanks to the aforementioned massive swaybars), and has a bulletproof Tundra/Landcruiser drivetrain (engine from the Tundra and transmission from the 100-series Landcruiser). I would go 2005 or newer (05 has a few more ponies), 2007 if you want factory nav (it was refreshed in 2007).

Who in their right mind cross-shops sports sedans wagons with SUVs?

5K miles an year i.e 100miles/weekend is too less considering your target of 8sec car!

Follow MCM and buy a SuperGramps wagon. Frugal fun that is :D

Why do people persist in thinking Subarus are frugal? They don't get good fuel economy and they're not particularly reliable. It's as if they have an Apple-like Reality Distortion Field around them or something; I don't get it.

[JLee]

OP, it's almost if you tried to put together a list of notoriously unreliable cars.  That list is horrendous!  Not only will you have the large 5k repairs to deal with, they will nickel and dime you to death.

Go with a CR-V, RAV4, or if you are really feeling fancy and can live without a wagon, Acura TL.

Probably not quite what you're looking for, but a Lexus GX470 SUV with the Sport package (which provides KDSS, basically massive swaybars that disconnect automatically offroad) hits 60 under 8 seconds (7.1 per zeroto60times.com) and is well under your 30k budget. Full time AWD, with a proper transfer case and low range/4WD.  Fuel efficiency sucks.  It has 4Runner offroad capability and handles suprisingly well on road (thanks to the aforementioned massive swaybars), and has a bulletproof Tundra/Landcruiser drivetrain (engine from the Tundra and transmission from the 100-series Landcruiser). I would go 2005 or newer (05 has a few more ponies), 2007 if you want factory nav (it was refreshed in 2007).

Who in their right mind cross-shops sports sedans wagons with SUVs?

5K miles an year i.e 100miles/weekend is too less considering your target of 8sec car!

Follow MCM and buy a SuperGramps wagon. Frugal fun that is :D

Why do people persist in thinking Subarus are frugal? They don't get good fuel economy and they're not particularly reliable. It's as if they have an Apple-like Reality Distortion Field around them or something; I don't get it.

Perhaps you missed the first sentence in my post?

[bacchi]

Why do people persist in thinking Subarus are frugal? They don't get good fuel economy and they're not particularly reliable. It's as if they have an Apple-like Reality Distortion Field around them or something; I don't get it.

You nailed it. They're the "in" car to own.

[dudde_devaru]

OP, it's almost if you tried to put together a list of notoriously unreliable cars.  That list is horrendous!  Not only will you have the large 5k repairs to deal with, they will nickel and dime you to death.

Go with a CR-V, RAV4, or if you are really feeling fancy and can live without a wagon, Acura TL.

Probably not quite what you're looking for, but a Lexus GX470 SUV with the Sport package (which provides KDSS, basically massive swaybars that disconnect automatically offroad) hits 60 under 8 seconds (7.1 per zeroto60times.com) and is well under your 30k budget. Full time AWD, with a proper transfer case and low range/4WD.  Fuel efficiency sucks.  It has 4Runner offroad capability and handles suprisingly well on road (thanks to the aforementioned massive swaybars), and has a bulletproof Tundra/Landcruiser drivetrain (engine from the Tundra and transmission from the 100-series Landcruiser). I would go 2005 or newer (05 has a few more ponies), 2007 if you want factory nav (it was refreshed in 2007).

Who in their right mind cross-shops sports sedans wagons with SUVs?

5K miles an year i.e 100miles/weekend is too less considering your target of 8sec car!

Follow MCM and buy a SuperGramps wagon. Frugal fun that is :D

Why do people persist in thinking Subarus are frugal? They don't get good fuel economy and they're not particularly reliable. It's as if they have an Apple-like Reality Distortion Field around them or something; I don't get it.

Subaru's are far better(frugally speaking) than the choices given in the first post. Gramps is fast and reliable. OP wants fun wagon and this is MMM. There is nothing wrong in suggesting a worthy alternative!

[Forcus]

Preface: I have owned / driven most of those examples.

I would go with the Volvo S40 / V50 T5. It is basically a really fancy Focus (in a good way). The suspension is not overly complicated, but it is effective, great brakes, etc. We had our 2005 S40 T5 from 30k miles (I think) to 175k miles. Very much highway driving but original clutch, injectors, turbo, etc. Only things replaced were a fuel rail pressure sensor (did it myself, $30 and 10 minutes) and a fuel pump under warranty / recall, also half shafts and wheel bearings. No big deal.

No switches every broke, no weird interior wear like I see / have experienced with German cars, and the # of computers are limited (I think I read the 335i has 32 modules...).

I would highly advise a stick, we drove a V50 T5 loaner with an automatic and it dampened the driving experience by at least 80%. No kidding.

[Reynolds531]

After a lot of lurking on jalnopik I can tell you, buy the Camry. Terrible list. Go read some Doug demuro.

[Clean Shaven]

How about an Acura TSX wagon?  More reliable than anything on your list, 4-cyl motor - but fits your stated criteria otherwise.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/06/review-2012-acura-tsx-sport-wagon/

[UnleashHell]

I bought a volvo s80 twin turbo with 96k miles on it. 8 years later its about to hit 150k.
its been pretty reliable. timing belts are the biggest must do.

I like it  - its comfortable and fast. very fast.

I think I'd go with the VW diesel wagon though. more versatile and lower running costs.

[worms]

Since I am on a 2003 Volvo v40 at >175,000 miles and wife on a 2003 VW Golf at >150,000 miles, both of which we have had for seven years, I can't agree with the suggestions above that these makes are prone to expensive breakdowns.

Can't see any reason to pay for an extended warranty (on anything) either.

[okonumiyaki]

Get a Lexus IS300 SportsCross

[chesebert]

Looks like I am down to 328 wagon or Volvo V50/V70. Will look around and pick one up based on condition/miles.

Caddy seems more problematic than the non turbo BMWs. Turbo BMWs are too complex for their own good. Audi/VW is a mess based on what I have read. E350 wagon is nice but seems overpriced for the mile/year.

[chesebert]

After a lot of lurking on jalnopik I can tell you, buy the Camry. Terrible list. Go read some Doug demuro.

I am sure Doug will have a field day with my question. I know what his opinion is on German "engineering" which is why he opted to purchase the Range Rover, Hummer H1 and 25yr old skyline ...... all hall of famers for longevity and reliability.

I would rather go car-less than driving a Camry or Accord or their derivatives.

[Forcus]

Looks like I am down to 328 wagon or Volvo V50/V70. Will look around and pick one up based on condition/miles.

Caddy seems more problematic than the non turbo BMWs. Turbo BMWs are too complex for their own good. Audi/VW is a mess based on what I have read. E350 wagon is nice but seems overpriced for the mile/year.

Caddy is just a different car. Friend of mine has an early CTS-V that he added a supercharger to. It's been super reliable for his face-palm commute. Personally I find the interior a little tight and the interior finishes not very high end (but I guess it's a 10 year old design after all). It is a little "feral" to me. Like a muscle car with 4 doors. That is fine if you like that kind of thing, for the commute, I prefer something a little softer.

As far as turbo / non-turbo BMW's go, yes the non-turbos are less complex. We have a 335i and no problems yet but we haven't had it all that long. What I am seeing is if you know the engine and its quirks well you won't have m(any) problems over a non-turbo. There are very specific things like media blasting the valves, replacing the coils (but only with the same type, and they changed), etc., that one needs to know with a higher mile unit. I worry more about the rest of the car, the wife called me a couple weeks ago and couldn't get in to the damn thing, even with the key. Apparently the design does not include an actual mechanical link between the door handle and the lock, so no matter what you can't get in. A major dangerous design flaw if ever there was one, and I guess BMW didn't learn from the E46 scandal. Germans always know best...........

Just don't drive a 335i back to back with a non-turbo model. The decision will be made for you!!!!!!!!!!!

[Reynolds531]

After a lot of lurking on jalnopik I can tell you, buy the Camry. Terrible list. Go read some Doug demuro.

I am sure Doug will have a field day with my question. I know what his opinion is on German "engineering" which is why he opted to purchase the Range Rover, Hummer H1 and 25yr old skyline ...... all hall of famers for longevity and reliability.

I would rather go car-less than driving a Camry or Accord or their derivatives.

The range rover he bought has to be just so he can write the awesome articles on Carmax. And slowly push them into Chapter 11. Why don't you price out the warranty there the same way he did?

The hummer I simply don't understand, and the skyline I think is just his boyhood dream. But the guy did work for porsche, so he must know things we don't.

[JLee]

Looks like I am down to 328 wagon or Volvo V50/V70. Will look around and pick one up based on condition/miles.

Caddy seems more problematic than the non turbo BMWs. Turbo BMWs are too complex for their own good. Audi/VW is a mess based on what I have read. E350 wagon is nice but seems overpriced for the mile/year.

Caddy is just a different car. Friend of mine has an early CTS-V that he added a supercharger to. It's been super reliable for his face-palm commute. Personally I find the interior a little tight and the interior finishes not very high end (but I guess it's a 10 year old design after all). It is a little "feral" to me. Like a muscle car with 4 doors. That is fine if you like that kind of thing, for the commute, I prefer something a little softer.

As far as turbo / non-turbo BMW's go, yes the non-turbos are less complex. We have a 335i and no problems yet but we haven't had it all that long. What I am seeing is if you know the engine and its quirks well you won't have m(any) problems over a non-turbo. There are very specific things like media blasting the valves, replacing the coils (but only with the same type, and they changed), etc., that one needs to know with a higher mile unit. I worry more about the rest of the car, the wife called me a couple weeks ago and couldn't get in to the damn thing, even with the key. Apparently the design does not include an actual mechanical link between the door handle and the lock, so no matter what you can't get in. A major dangerous design flaw if ever there was one, and I guess BMW didn't learn from the E46 scandal. Germans always know best...........

Just don't drive a 335i back to back with a non-turbo model. The decision will be made for you!!!!!!!!!!!

The difference between the 1st and 2nd gen CTS-V interiors is night and day. The new ones are far, far better (I had a 2004). lol @ feral. Yes, that's not a bad representation. It's basically a four door Corvette Z06.

If you do look at 335i's, I would recommend a 2009 (if you're looking at an N54 model). 2007-2008 had problems with the ABS module melting (high heat area) and that was fixed in 2009 (as well as some other stuff I forget). BMW was cutting costs for the 2010 model so the general consensus is to stay with 2009.  They have/had problems with the high pressure fuel pump, but BMW has an extended warranty on them now.

[Debts_of_Despair]

OP, it's almost if you tried to put together a list of notoriously unreliable cars.  That list is horrendous!  Not only will you have the large 5k repairs to deal with, they will nickel and dime you to death.

Go with a CR-V, RAV4, or if you are really feeling fancy and can live without a wagon, Acura TL.

Who in their right mind cross-shops sports sedans wagons with SUVs?

Meh, they're not all that different in the realm of what the OP is looking for.  The CR-V and RAV4 are wagons that are slightly lifted.  The TL in AWD form checks all the other boxes minus the wagon part.