Author Topic: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)  (Read 2508 times)

SmashYourSmartPhone

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A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« on: September 27, 2023, 04:09:06 PM »
A place to discuss the state of the not-smartphones out there, in late 2023!

If you're going to extol the virtues of why a smartphone is so convenient, this is not the place for you, and some of you know who you are.

If you are either running a "dumb" (formerly just a "phone") device, or are curious about them, this is for the discussion of them.

My current device (I've experimented with a range of them, and typically buy used on eBay, and sell on eBay if I don't want them or when the carrier stops supporting them - AT&T VoLTE dropped a couple perfectly good devices out) is a Sonim XP3+.

It is an absolute brick of a flip phone.  Waterproof, milspec rugged, about half a pound, and with a ringer that can wake the dead.



Things it does:
- Calling.
- Texting (T9 works).
- Plays music (even has Bluetooth, if you care).
- Takes pictures.
- Hot spot feature to tether other devices.
- Flashlight.
- Exterior buttons so the "when closed" screen is useful to answer/deny phone calls, view text messages as they come in, etc.

Things it doesn't do:
- Everything else.

It runs Android Go, and while you can sideload other applications, few work without a touch interface, and even fewer are reasonable on a tiny screen.  So an option for some stuff, but not a good option.

However, I consider it a nice "demo phone" for sharing the joys of the smartphone free life with people, because it's very stout, very rugged, and is obviously not a "super cheap" sort of device.  Tossing it across the room to people, as I often do, makes some very clear points about how confident I am in the robustness, and it makes a proper impact when they catch it!

Is it worth it if you just want a boring phone?  Perhaps.  It's overkill, honestly.  Most people don't need a mil-spec phone, and I certainly don't, though a previous device I had (Flip IV) was unable to deal with things like "being out in a chair in wet grass in the evening as the sun went down" without condensation related failures.  So it's an upgrade on that metric.

There are dozens of us!  Join us!
« Last Edit: September 27, 2023, 04:15:04 PM by SmashYourSmartPhone »

Daley

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2023, 07:32:44 PM »
I guess I should probably chime in with my own thoughts and suggestions given my past history here on the forums, if anyone is curious. I've touched briefly on the subject in another thread talking about "children's phones", but why not dump my own two cents. Thanks for the idea and the thread, @SmashYourSmartPhone

As always, I'm rolling with a wall of text. There's plenty of info for those with the attention span. It's more of a holistic approach to phone shopping in the spirit of the subject than a rigid track on the subject. I like used electronics, and this guide will reflect that. I also won't link anything tonight, but may come back with a few useful links later in an edit. All the keywords to find the info yourself will be there, though.

PRIMER ON THE PITFALLS OF FEATURE PHONES AND PHONE SHOPPING IN A POST LTE-ONLY WORLD

Before starting, we need to recognize some of the challenges to this approach today. This is mostly going to be a US centric post as that's the majority of the audience here. First, devices must be VoLTE (Voice over LTE) capable/certified handsets on the network you choose to use it on. All three major networks have now completely shut down 2G/3G and 3G-CDMA towers in the United States and similar is happening in other countries now. I've talked about this before, but it never hurts to refresh. There's already been a post talking about an ancient model handset that absolutely won't work on modern networks already.

(Sorry, @TreeLeaf - I don't know what you're talking about, but the SCH-U485 Intensity III was a CDMA only handset from 2012, and will not work or activate on Verizon's modern network. Perhaps you're mistaken about the device model, or you haven't used it since Verizon finally shut CDMA off last year. Could it be another device?)

Unfortunately, AT&T has restricted device activation to only AT&T branded or a shorter list of international friendly flagship phone models by using IMEI whitelists. This means that unless you have an AT&T postpaid account, if you don't bring in a handset that's not already on this short list of approved devices but should still technically work given AT&T's standards friendly implementation of VoLTE? You can't activate it. It will not work on their network. There is a PDF listing the approved handsets, however. This does complicate matters while handset shopping, though... especially if you're looking to do any of what I have laid out below on the more technical end, like firmware replacement ass most of these handsets will have AT&T locked bootloaders even on models that wouldn't normally.

Things only get rougher from here. T-Mobile's VoLTE implementation is sufficiently proprietary enough that they require all handsets capable of VoLTE calling to have a certified VoLTE networking stack. T-Mobile branded and T-Mobile international handsets and flagship phones and the carrier unlocked handsets are all good, but it complicates things if you're looking to wipe firmware depending on the VoLTE implementation.

Finally, there's Verizon. They only activate handsets with LTE Band 13 support. The good news is, their VoLTE implementation is incredibly vanilla, and if you're looking to do third party firmware, most handsets should work, mostly. There's exceptions, and Verizon will lock bootloaders on their branded handsets of models that would otherwise have unlocked bootloaders like AT&T does, but... the selection is probably the biggest on this end.

There's also the issue of internet data access. As much as some of us may long to restrict only to phone calls or phone calls and SMS texting only, there are pitfalls given how many others out there wind up sending MMS messages. If your phone or plan isn't set up with data and able to handle MMS, you could miss out of actual text messages as well from some folk.

Why bring this up, though? Because most feature phones historically, and many that have been sold around the world even in more recent years, have only been 3G GSM handsets. They won't work in the US anymore. Sorry. This makes looking for used feature phones difficult, especially given how few feature phones there really have been that do genuinely support 4G VoLTE phone calling. Given how few options there are in general, it's why I don't close off to the idea of a select list of smartphones as well (despite the topic), but when you get there, you'll understand why I'm including them in this thread anyway, given the nature of the devices and firmware.

Sonim XP3+

I appreciate a good rugged device, and I'd mentioned ruggedized phones in the past myself. Big fan of the old Nokias back in the day. Personally, my only apprehension on this is Android. Android gets bad enough security updates as it is, and is only just that much worse on feature phones. Now, you can mitigate a lot of it by doing things like disabling mobile data and WiFi on the device partially through talk and text only plans with zero data, but disabling mobile internet has the issue of disabling MMS reception for even text only messages that exceed the SMS character count (especially from devices like iPhones and custom emoji/GIF heavy messenger clients on Android), and not just media like photos. Given the poor security history of Android, that's the sort of stuff that makes me nervous, though I can't talk too out of turn on that since I do recommend VoLTE capable (non-Samsung) Android devices that supports modern builds of /e/OS and LineageOS with microG on older Android handsets that have already gone End of Life as an affordable option using otherwise abandoned hardware that's a bit more privacy forward. Bit of a gamble either way, but the risk is low provided you minimize the surface of attack.

Which really brings up my line of suggestions. I know this is a "feature phone" thread, but I do view hobbled smartphones as being compatible with this idea. Trotting out a feature phone may make people talk, but sometimes, the most frugal and eco-friendly option is to exploit the long tail of technology to keep existing hardware out of the trash heap.

OPTION ONE - THE END OF LIFE ANDROID PHONE RUNNING DE-GOOGLED CUSTOM FIRMWARE

To that end, I do recommend exploiting the small handful of VoLTE capable Android handsets with unlockable boot loaders that have gone EOL that are still actively supported and have custom ROM builds of /e/OS or LineageOS with microG specifically. Neither firmware have traditional access to the Play Store, and are considerably less privacy invasive. And although /e/OS has an app store that does have some of the commercial datamining apps in it, they also have integrated privacy review ratings with those listed apps telling you what they have embedded in them. As for LOS/microG, you only have access to F-Droid, which pretty well limits you to FOSS apps, which means less convenience, less datamining, and more privacy in general. Pairing it with a minimalist launcher like Bald Phone (which is an excellent elderly-friendly launcher as well) or Niagra, can also help. The only downside is that it does take some technical effort, though the walkthrough documentation to do that is typically done well enough to make it pretty foolproof if you just follow instructions. Even though it's still Android at heart, and technically able to run many of the Android apps, exiting the Google ecosystem still alters your relationship to the device in profound ways.

I will not provide an exact list publicly of the handsets that can work going this route for two reasons: 1) A firm list of these devices will drive aftermarket demand and prices up on a pool of limited options, and 2) It's enough of a technically minded bozo filter to force you to look against the device specs, the network compatibility and the supported device list from these aftermarket ROMs to ensure you know what you're buying and getting into before doing it. If you're smart enough to work out the list of 30 or so handset models that might work and on which networks, you're probably going to be smart enough to handle doing a firmware flash.

OPTION TWO - THE SUPER SHORT LIST OF VoLTE CAPABLE WINDOWS PHONE DEVICES

This is more for the people who still want to take advantage of old end of life smartphones without having to worry about security vulnerabilities or swapping out firmware. There is a very, very, very short list of Windows Phone 8/Windows 10 Mobile devices that had VoLTE support. Each of these devices that do exist are VoLTE devices specific to a network, with no interoperability between networks. These are a good option as feature phones as although it's swipe typing, there's an excellent keyboard with decent predictive text. Although the store is dead and the OS abandoned, the basic functionality still works fresh out of a factory reset. Security isn't an issue as the underlying OS is basically Windows CE/Windows on ARM, they had the security tight, and there's still no known vulnerabilities to the last builds of the OS to this day. There's a lot to love about these old handsets if you can find a good one, like user replaceable batteries.

Again, I won't provide a shopping list, though. It's a shrinking pool of end of life hardware with a dedicated fan base that still exists to this day. If you want a suggestion, I can recommend something in private. I loved the heck out of my old Lumia handsets, but I unfortunately had to move onto Android myself due to specific feature needs that Windows Phone no longer supported. It's still not a path for everyone.

OPTION THREE - THE KOSHER PHONE, FOR THE NON-TECHNICALLY INCLINED

For the rest of you who just really kinda want to just go shopping for something that works, and has most of the modern internet access bells and whistles ripped out of the OS on KaiOS and Android GO feature phones, or might still have use for certain facets of the the smartphone form factor, but want something that's more set up and akin and feature poor like the old feature phones of yore? Haredi Judaism has your back! Do an internet search for Kosher Phones and take a look at the small handful of retailers selling feature and smartphones that are available. There are varying degrees of Kosher phones out there, some do calls only, some limited to only phone and SMS text messaging with even the cameras disabled, others that support media and even navigation apps. They do cost a bit more than the otherwise retail version of the handsets they carry, but they have a broader selection and you're paying to have some stuff removed from the device. Is it a somewhat false scarcity issue? Yeah, but, what're you gonna do. But, the point is, there are options where if you're looking for a less is more phone, there are phones that have been pre-modified for you to bring back the simplicity and limited functionality of the oldskool mobile dumbphone that are still cheaper than the hipster "digital detox" phones like the Light Phone or Sunbeam. It's also a good way to find specific feature phone models to try and search for with the OEM factory firmware that could work for you even if you don't buy one.

Personally, as far as feature phone operating systems go, KaiOS and Android GO are both terrible options, but all the older legacy systems like Symbian that were amazing feature phone OSes just can't support the VoLTE voice stack. Unfortunately, it impacts battery life, stability, etc. KaiOS has a habit of bitrot after some time usage, forcing you to do a reset, and there's rare security updates. Android GO is in a similar boat with the security updates, and what you gain in stability you lose with battery life. Sadly, feature phones have been neglected overall given the smartphone tsunami of the past decade. Of all the modern makers, though, HMD/Nokia is back in the game with a couple models, and putting out solid handsets. I'd take one of those over an Alcatel, Xiaomi or ZTE rebadge.

That's my hardware advice.

ADJUNCT - MOBILE PLANS

What about mobile plans for these basic little phones? They don't need much, and as such, you shouldn't pay much either. Realistically, if you're paying more than $10/month for service, you're overpaying for your low usage low internet cellphone. There's really only two MVNOs I'd recommend to look at these days, Red Pocket and US Mobile.

Red Pocket has "unlimited" talk and text with 1GB of high speed data for $10/month on any of the three major networks. They also have cheaper annual plans over on their eBay store with varying amounts of call/text/data typically restricted to a specific network depending on the package. The cheapest one is T-Mobile based only, but only $30/year for 200min/1000 SMS/200MB a month plans.

I've recommended US Mobile in the past, but backed off a bit given their history of hiding fees on their price list, but they've stopped doing that! US Mobile now has 500 min/500 SMS/500 MB plans for $5/month now, all inclusive on either Verizon or T-Mobile's network. And speaking of Kosher phones, they now offer a Kosher plan of "unlimited" talk and text for $7.50/month on both networks as well. Of course, losing internet access hobbles MMS usage as has been mentioned already, but if you're cool with that, more power to you with less cost!

That's all I got. G'night, folks!

Feel free to file any questions, comments or complaints appropriately... I'll add what I can when I can.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2023, 07:47:42 PM by Daley »

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2023, 10:25:34 AM »
First, devices must be VoLTE (Voice over LTE) capable/certified handsets on the network you choose to use it on.

This is definitely a problem I've run into - many perfectly good older cell phones simply no longer talk to the modern towers.  No matter how hard you try, you can't keep a cell phone running past the time the towers it talks to shut down.  It's a plus for old cars, you don't have to gut the modem, but still annoying.

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There's also the issue of internet data access. As much as some of us may long to restrict only to phone calls or phone calls and SMS texting only, there are pitfalls given how many others out there wind up sending MMS messages. If your phone or plan isn't set up with data and able to handle MMS, you could miss out of actual text messages as well from some folk.

Yup. :/  And I've not found them willing to use wifi for MMS message content, either.  I cleverly ran with data turned off for a while, until I realized I'd been missing literally every group text and image text.  Data, unfortunately, isn't optional if you want to interoperate with the rest of the texting world, which is one hard line I have: I won't make extra work for other people with cell phone experiments.  If I can't receive/send group texts properly, that's now harassing other people with extra complexity.

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Personally, my only apprehension on this is Android. Android gets bad enough security updates as it is, and is only just that much worse on feature phones.

This is a concern of mine too.  But even the latest iPhones are getting 0day attacks on them, so I think the safe assumption is to just act as though your device is compromised and limit data on it to that which comes through the carriers, for the most part.  KaiOS is a security nightmare, Android is a security nightmare, iOS with Lockdown enabled is... perhaps better, but I don't know if it mitigates all the current 0days against it (I don't believe Lockdown blocked webp parsing, and that's responsible for a wave of attacks lately), so basically, I don't think there is a single "secure" cell phone on the market anymore.  Even the third party firmwares you talk about below are vulnerable to the complexity problems.  But it's far easier to have nothing of value on the phone.  And then not bring it anywhere.

I apply this to computers, too, and run things heavily siloed and restricted to attempt to avoid much of the malware that is the modern internet.

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Security isn't an issue as the underlying OS is basically Windows CE/Windows on ARM, they had the security tight, and there's still no known vulnerabilities to the last builds of the OS to this day.

Interesting, I should look into that more, though for now I think the XP3+ serves my needs.  I want a landline...

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Haredi Judaism has your back! Do an internet search for Kosher Phones and take a look at the small handful of retailers selling feature and smartphones that are available. There are varying degrees of Kosher phones out there, some do calls only, some limited to only phone and SMS text messaging with even the cameras disabled, others that support media and even navigation apps.

I have run into this as well - bizarre, but makes some level of sense.  And they do have useful forums for this in some areas - apps4flip comes to mind.

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Android GO is in a similar boat with the security updates, and what you gain in stability you lose with battery life.

I am getting a week+ per charge on the XP3+, but it also has a larger battery than most smartphones at 2400mAh.

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Sadly, feature phones have been neglected overall given the smartphone tsunami of the past decade.

Yes. :(  It is sad to see them so neglected, and the ones offered being so weirdly broken.  I suppose there's no market for devices that can't sell your data easily.

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There's really only two MVNOs I'd recommend to look at these days, Red Pocket and US Mobile.

How easy is it to port a number into them?

TreeLeaf

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2023, 01:41:23 PM »
@SmashYourSmartPhone

Oh - that's a good catch. Thanks for the correction.

The eBay listing showed it as being 4g. Guess I should not trust everything I read on the internet. Lol.

So yeah - Samsung intensity 3 is not an option these days then.

Thanks for the correction. Did not mean to spread misinformation *smh*

ETA: I have deleted the post here, so as not to spread misinformation, in case anyone is confused.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 01:43:37 PM by TreeLeaf »

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2023, 01:46:21 PM »
It's probably a 4G capable phone for data, that does voice over 3G.  Most of the straight "4G" phones are like that.

However, with carriers having dropped 3G towers entirely recently, that arrangement no longer works - and "4G" does not, in the slightest, imply VoLTE (voice over LTE) support.

This is AT&T's current device support list:

https://www.att.com/scmsassets/support/wireless/devices-working-on-att-network.pdf

Apple requires an iPhone 6 or newer for VoLTE support.

Yet some "4G" phones (the Nokia 6300 4G) are listed as being supported.

It is a pain, and is far more limited than options were 3-4 years ago before the VoLTE transition.  The carriers obsoleted networks, so you need to pay up for a new device!  Such progress!

englishteacheralex

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2023, 02:10:19 PM »
Hi Daley, really appreciate your contribution to the thread I started about landlines for kids. I never pinged back on that thread and you really added a lot, so just wanted to say thanks.

Kind of looks like a kosher phone might be the way to go for the kids.

GuitarStv

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2023, 02:17:09 PM »


Pros:
- works well as a phone
- comfortable design that actually fits properly into your hand
- no need to touch a screen to start/end a call (no screen protector necessary)
- difficult to misplace/lose
- haptic feedback allows eyes free dialing
- built in hands free conversation option (requires tilting of head to shoulder)
- doesn't receive or send text messages
- doesn't interrupt you on a long bike ride
- doesn't function as a camera
- doesn't distract you while driving
- doesn't monitor and report your internet browsing or location data

Cons:
- somewhat limited range

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2023, 02:43:50 PM »
Other cons:
- Either the cord is endlessly twisted, or you have crackle from the cord-de-twister that isn't quite right.
- Having your eardrum blasted out when someone is using the internet.  Followed by your other eardrum blasted out by whoever was in the internet storming in to complain.

I should get a landline phone adapter and an old rotary dial phone, if there are any that are compatible.

I wouldn't mind a rotary dial smartphone, but the kits are rather on the expensive side.

ChpBstrd

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2023, 03:52:29 PM »
I'm dumbphone-curious so thanks for all this info about the current state of things.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the ideal way to go is to spend a few hours rooting/flashing a device you spent a few hours researching and finding, and then to spend some more time getting the carrier to connect it. This is a lot more effort than just picking one's next smartphone when the two year contract runs out. It's also an abrupt cold-turkey solution for people who want to spend less time on apps and browsers, but still want to exchange text messages or do other basic things. In terms of money, the time investment is probably an unattractive tradeoff to most. Finally, most people demand reliability and it sounds like some solutions are fairly hack-y.

What kind of intermediate baby step solutions are there? Here are a few I came up with:

a) putting a parental control app on one's own phone to discourage use
b) finding a carrier that will give you a calls/text only plan on a smartphone, thereby making it a dumb phone unless in wifi range
c) using a smartphone with minimal battery life, so one is discouraged from using it
d) using an obsolete phone on wifi only, basically as a wireless landline
e) using a smartphone so old apps don't work on it anymore

But this thread makes me want to experiment with installing a new OS on some old phones I have laying around just to build the skill. Unfortunately they're all apples, not supported by LineageOS.

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2023, 04:07:40 PM »
Unfortunately, it sounds like the ideal way to go is to spend a few hours rooting/flashing a device you spent a few hours researching and finding, and then to spend some more time getting the carrier to connect it.

Not really.  The ideal way to go is to buy a flip phone or candybar phone listed for VoLTE support with your carrier.

If you're rooting/flashing a device, it'll either work with your carrier or it won't.  Outside something like the PinePhone, I don't think there's much "getting your carrier to connect" - either it supports VoLTE properly for your carrier or it doesn't, and as that's a baseband behavior (or at least baseband dependent), if it's not working, you're screwed.

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This is a lot more effort than just picking one's next smartphone when the two year contract runs out.

Indeed.  And in 2023, as the MMM forum rages on in a glorious inferno of "It's convenient; I can afford it!" who would want to do that?  You can deposit checks from your smartphone without going to the bank.  Game, set, match!

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It's also an abrupt cold-turkey solution for people who want to spend less time on apps and browsers, but still want to exchange text messages or do other basic things.

Yes.  It is a harsh, cold turkey solution.  The best kind.  Do you tell an alcoholic looking for help to "Try to drink less, maybe only have a few drinks when you're out at the bar?"  Or do you tell them to "not drink at all, don't even go to the bar"?  The second works.  The first, less so.

Text messages, including group texts, work on modern flip phones and such.  And T9 works fine, once you remember or relearn it.

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In terms of money, the time investment is probably an unattractive tradeoff to most. Finally, most people demand reliability and it sounds like some solutions are fairly hack-y.

A few hours to free an hour+ a day of time wasted on the addiction-forming black mirror?  Sounds a good trade to me.

Bluntly, my flip phone is more reliable than a smartphone.  I can drop it, pick it up, and be fine.  I can drop it in the toilet, fish it out, rinse it off in the sink, and be fine.  I can forget to charge it for days on end and be fine.  I'm at 50% battery.  I charged it... Sunday, I think?  Maybe Saturday.  Sometime last weekend.  I could probably drive over it, though I don't care to be quite so deliberately destructive as that.

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a) putting a parental control app on one's own phone to discourage use

If you know the passcode for it, you'll bypass it.  This may work, IFF someone else knows the passcode and not you.

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b) finding a carrier that will give you a calls/text only plan on a smartphone, thereby making it a dumb phone unless in wifi range

My experience is that with data off, MMS messages do not get delivered at all, which means group texts including you don't work.  You also can't send them.  This may or may not matter, but "group text messages" are a part of how my social group communicates, so this is not optional to me.

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c) using a smartphone with minimal battery life, so one is discouraged from using it

Perhaps, but then you are not reachable if needed.  Depends on your situation.  I hear the pinephone battery life is awful, if you want to go that route.

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d) using an obsolete phone on wifi only, basically as a wireless landline

My wifi is not stable enough nor low latency enough on my internet connections to make that reliable in the slightest.  Further, I do still care about having "some phone connectivity" when out and about.  It's nice, on occasion, to get updates from my wife about where and when we're meeting when we have separate days around.

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e) using a smartphone so old apps don't work on it anymore

Probably vulnerable to a wide range of remote 0click 0days, then.

Daley

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2023, 06:27:55 PM »
@SmashYourSmartPhone Daley

Oh - that's a good catch. Thanks for the correction.

@TreeLeaf - You're welcome. ;)



Hi Daley, really appreciate your contribution to the thread I started about landlines for kids. I never pinged back on that thread and you really added a lot, so just wanted to say thanks.

Kind of looks like a kosher phone might be the way to go for the kids.

@englishteacheralex - Glad to help, as always!



I'm dumbphone-curious so thanks for all this info about the current state of things.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the ideal way to go is to spend a few hours rooting/flashing a device you spent a few hours researching and finding, and then to spend some more time getting the carrier to connect it.

@ChpBstrd - Not necessarily. My apologies if my order of options muddled the info. The simplest solution is #3 from my list - either a modern VoLTE capable Nokia feature phone running KaiOS; a rugged phone like the Sonim or Kyocera DuraXE/XR, or a Kosher phone neutered to the appropriate level that you'd want (I'd recommend at least media support to ensure MMS works); or if you want the smartphone factor going with #2, being an old Lumia phone with WP8/W10M and VoLTE support. The easiest networks to find still supported Windows Phone models are with AT&T and Verizon.

The hunting down and flashing Android handsets is more for those more technically minded, frugal/poor, and/or people looking for a solution that still gives a useful form factor to not abandon data-based messaging apps like Telegram/Signal/Discord/Matrix/XMPP/Briar/etc. while still mostly abandoning commercial, mainstream social media, and convenience smartphone apps.

This said? I still won't post a list, but I will give a couple hints on brand names that are most likely to provide handsets that will work to make the search slightly easier: one is a search engine giant, one is owned by Lenovo, the other is a subsidiary of Oppo. There are also some red herring models, and they're typically Korean brands. Not all models will work on all networks, however, so you kind of have to shop with anticipation of the network(s) you intend to use with the device.



Even the third party firmwares you talk about below are vulnerable to the complexity problems.  But it's far easier to have nothing of value on the phone.  And then not bring it anywhere.

I apply this to computers, too, and run things heavily siloed and restricted to attempt to avoid much of the malware that is the modern internet.

@SmashYourSmartPhone - Yup. Something something lower attack surface and little of value when you get there.

I want a landline...
I should get a landline phone adapter and an old rotary dial phone, if there are any that are compatible.

Have you looked into any VoIP solutions paired with an Analogue Telephone Adapter, like VoIP.ms? Or one of those dedicated cellular home phone bases that you can also plug old landlines into? Only downside is most of these devices cap out at around 1.0 REN* on the analog phone line output, which means the old classic home phones like Stv recommended with the physical clapper bells for ringing draw too much power to properly work. You're better served with more modern phones with digital ringers that draw a lower REN, like cordless handsets.

(*REN = Ring Equivalency Number, every modern analogue telephone has a REN stamped into it next to the phone jack you use to plug it in.)

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[snip]Do an internet search for Kosher Phones and take a look at the small handful of retailers selling feature and smartphones that are available.[snip]

I have run into this as well - bizarre, but makes some level of sense.  And they do have useful forums for this in some areas - apps4flip comes to mind.

The Haredi are kind of like the Jewish equivalent of Ultra-Orthodox Amish, if that makes sense. The Haredim's rabbis don't endorse unfettered Internet access... thus, "Kosher" phones. This said, nobody in modern Judaism, excuse the Ultra Orthodox, have a problem with the Internet. I see the value and perspective of both stances in regard to this topic, which can be an incredibly Jewish thing to say.

Quote
There's really only two MVNOs I'd recommend to look at these days, Red Pocket and US Mobile.

How easy is it to port a number into them?

Pretty easy, provided you know all the necessary relevant account information from your current provider. I've been with both carriers, and number porting hasn't been an issue.

This is AT&T's current device support list:

https://www.att.com/scmsassets/support/wireless/devices-working-on-att-network.pdf

Yup, that's the whitelist list I mentioned.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2023, 06:32:15 PM by Daley »

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2023, 04:23:36 PM »
Have you looked into any VoIP solutions paired with an Analogue Telephone Adapter, like VoIP.ms? Or one of those dedicated cellular home phone bases that you can also plug old landlines into? Only downside is most of these devices cap out at around 1.0 REN* on the analog phone line output, which means the old classic home phones like Stv recommended with the physical clapper bells for ringing draw too much power to properly work.

I've not, I should.  My ISP is not something I'd care to route voice over, so VoIP probably isn't a good option.

Quote
The Haredi are kind of like the Jewish equivalent of Ultra-Orthodox Amish, if that makes sense. The Haredim's rabbis don't endorse unfettered Internet access... thus, "Kosher" phones.

Seems more and more reasonable as time goes on.

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2023, 09:16:18 AM »
Hi. I haven't read all the posts, but this looked like a good place to be.

I have 2 old cell phones that are 2G.  My carrier, T-Mobile is going to do away with 2G in April, 2024.  Will need 4G or higher after that.

All I want to do is buy a new 4G  talk and text only unlocked phone that will work with T-Mobile. 

I went to Walmart and they have lots of phones, but nothing in the talk and txt only that is unlocked.   

In the good old days, I just bought an unlocked talk and text only phone (Samsung) for $39 and set it up on T-Mobile prepaid.   

I went to the T-mobile website, where the T-Mobile phone rep suggested, and it is no help.

I would leave T-Mobile, if it made my life easier, but I have $130 in unused minutes I don't want to lose.

Oh, the T-Mobile rep said I could get a free 4G phone from them but I have to prepay an additional  $100 of phone time.   I'll never use up that $100. Plus they say I will need to give them my name and address, and therefore give up my privacy.       

Such as big problem just to get a dumb phone for prepaid service. Would Target have unlocked dumb phones ?   

Any ideas welcome.    Thanks.

Daley

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2023, 10:02:41 AM »
@slackmax - Apologies, but I'm not going to type out the same information twice. Quoting the most barebones relevant from the useful post in question, setting up what to understand about MMS and internet access before going into shopping for phones using recommended source #3, the Kosher phone market, so you don't lose MMS functionality (or possibly camera/media access) given there are degrees/options of "kashrut" phone lockdown that varies on the models available.

I suggest you take the time to read at least the Primer, Option Three, and Adjunct parts of the comment linked and quoted as it will help prepare you to better navigate device shopping and the pitfalls you might encounter given how few handsets there are and the lack of interoperability the modern VoLTE networks cause. Link and quotes below:

PRIMER ON THE PITFALLS OF FEATURE PHONES AND PHONE SHOPPING IN A POST LTE-ONLY WORLD
[snip]
...disabling mobile internet has the issue of disabling MMS reception for even text only messages that exceed the SMS character count (especially from devices like iPhones and custom emoji/GIF heavy messenger clients on Android), and not just media like photos.
[snip]
OPTION THREE - THE KOSHER PHONE, FOR THE NON-TECHNICALLY INCLINED
[snip]
That's my hardware advice.

ADJUNCT - MOBILE PLANS
[snip]
Realistically, if you're paying more than $10/month for service, you're overpaying for your low usage low internet cellphone. There's really only two MVNOs I'd recommend to look at these days, Red Pocket and US Mobile.

Edit to add another quote from a separate post:
The simplest solution is #3 from my list - either a modern VoLTE capable Nokia feature phone running KaiOS; a rugged phone like the Sonim or Kyocera DuraXE/XR, or a Kosher phone neutered to the appropriate level that you'd want (I'd recommend at least media support to ensure MMS works)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 10:08:12 AM by Daley »

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2023, 10:25:02 AM »
Thanks, Daley.  I have started reading the thread.

My current idea, so far, is to get an unlocked Nokia 2780 flip phone for $89 at BestBuy, and call up my carrier, T-Mobile beforehand, to ask if that phone is compatible,  and hope that it isn't too grueling to set it up with them. May need sim card. 
 
Still looking, though. Might find something better, cheaper, etc.    I like the kosher theme.

Daley

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2023, 10:41:19 AM »
Couple more direct thoughts...

I have 2 old cell phones that are 2G.  My carrier, T-Mobile is going to do away with 2G in April, 2024.  Will need 4G or higher after that.

All I want to do is buy a new 4G  talk and text only unlocked phone that will work with T-Mobile. 
[snip]
I would leave T-Mobile, if it made my life easier, but I have $130 in unused minutes I don't want to lose.

First, it's always best to work with the network you know in your area typically, but you're already restricted to the lousiest coverage on the smallest network being 2G only with T-Mo.

Second, even going with a VoLTE capable feature phone that's compatible with T-Mo isn't a perfect solution, given the Band 12 LTE license status of T-Mobile's coverage nationwide. If you live in or frequently visit Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, or Wisconsin, (editied, updated list, misprint on brain - here's the 700MHz Band 12 spectrum license map and all its gaps) you may be in for a rude surprise given their band license holes*. They're using both 2G and 5G coverage in those states to fill in their lack of 4G Band 12 coverage, which only leaves 5G coverage post April 2024. There are no feature phones at this point and time that has 5G network support that I'm aware of, heck there are barely even any 5G Android handsets from my third party firmware suggestion that ticks that box, and zero of them are even End of Life yet. Odds are, you'd fair better on either AT&T or Verizon with a feature phone if those regions are where your life frequently takes you. That opens up other challenges in shopping, namely Band 13 support (Verizon) or IMEI device whitelisting (AT&T).

Third and last, don't let your unused $120 credit balance be an anchor around your neck keeping you locked in. Sunk cost fallacy and all that, especially if you're good for staying on T-Mo's network as there's probably cheaper annual plans over on Red Pocket than what you're paying that provide more service per month than you typically spend given your PAYGO credit balance. It's also unlikely that they'll let you keep that grandfathered PAYGO plan given you'll need to activate a new SIM card to work the new frequencies anyway.

Thanks, Daley.  I have started reading the thread.

My current idea, so far, is to get an unlocked Nokia 2780 flip phone for $89 at BestBuy, and call up my carrier, T-Mobile beforehand, to ask if that phone is compatible,  and hope that it isn't too grueling to set it up with them. May need sim card. 
 
Still looking, though. Might find something better, cheaper, etc.    I like the kosher theme.

An unlocked Nokia 2780 might be a good option given it has both Band 13 support for Verizon and Nokia's claiming it works on AT&T (though it's worth noting that the 2780 isn't on AT&T's official list) along with T-Mobile support. Either way, you're looking at a new SIM card, and staying with T-Mobile could be a regional pitfall otherwise, never mind the loss of their old PAYGO plans.

Additional Edit:
*It's worth noting that T-Mobile's national network coverage maps are optimistic half-truths. Once 2G voice coverage ends with T-Mobile, any non 5G device on their network will be at the mercy of their 4G Band 12 700MHz spectrum holdings for VoLTE voice calling, which looks nothing like their shiny magenta maps that're stitched together currently out of three network technologies (2/4/5G) and showing full data coverage (with or without voice), and at least seven major fragmented prior regional and "national" wireless carriers (at least Sprint, Nextel, Powertel, Voicestream, MetroPCS, Omnipoint, and SunCom, on the major levels IIRC, plus countless other random tiny regionals that were absorbed over the decades).

Point being, there's no major complete national spectrum holdings with T-Mobile, it's a patchwork of various other spectrum holdings on incongruent frequencies, and without 5G handsets, voice coverage post April 2024 for VoLTE only T-Mo users is gonna develop some holes. It's why I won't do T-Mo in my own state anymore. None of the phones I want to use are able to get any sort of voice coverage outside of their anemic and rapidly shut down 2G network on their 1900MHz PCS band that can barely punch through windows into buildings, let alone walls.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 11:23:51 AM by Daley »

alsoknownasDean

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2023, 08:14:16 PM »
Do any of the feature phones support WiFi Calling/VoWiFi? Always handy to have in areas of weak coverage.

You couldn't pay me to go back to texting on a T9 keyboard, sorry

If any Aussies are reading this thread, Amaysim have a plan that's $60 for 12 months of unlimited talk/text without data (available at $10/GB). It's not available on their website but existing customers can change to it (set up an As You Go service and you should be able to change). Optus network.

https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/803996

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« Last Edit: October 08, 2023, 08:18:03 PM by alsoknownasDean »

Daley

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2023, 08:12:43 AM »
Do any of the feature phones support WiFi Calling/VoWiFi? Always handy to have in areas of weak coverage.

Short answer? Not really, no. Most feature phones run KaiOS, which really doesn't do WiFi calling. However, some Android based feature phones should have the feature available... but there aren't many Android feature phones out there. Sonim and Kyocera's rugged options do run Android, and as such, do offer WiFi calling... but they're in the minority.

Can't speak to Australia like you can, Dean, but here stateside? Really T-Mobile's still the most likely candidate of the big three to leave you in a situation needing WiFi to pinch cover for lack of voice coverage, despite owning some of the lowest frequency mobile network spectrum now. Kind of a poetic irony, really, since they were the first to roll that feature out in NA with the 3G standard nearly 15 years ago given the poor building penetration they used to get on most of their network. Only now, it's to plug gaps in their networks that's missing both VoLTE Band 12 and 5G Band n71 due to equipment, leaving you with nothing but mid-band and millimeter wave 4G/5G that can't penetrate buildings... again.

And of all the phones that could use WiFi calling the most on their network? Feature phones. Because feature phones don't support 5G, so no matter how thorough their 600MHz Band 71 holdings are nationwide, there's still massive holes in their 700MHz Band 12 4G VoLTE coverage because they only deployed that spectrum as a 5G network. And of course, the very people most effected by this ridiculousness on T-Mobile's part are the very people in this thread deliberately looking to not walk around with shiny new smartphones.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2023, 08:14:38 AM by Daley »

alsoknownasDean

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2023, 01:24:01 AM »
Do any of the feature phones support WiFi Calling/VoWiFi? Always handy to have in areas of weak coverage.

Short answer? Not really, no. Most feature phones run KaiOS, which really doesn't do WiFi calling. However, some Android based feature phones should have the feature available... but there aren't many Android feature phones out there. Sonim and Kyocera's rugged options do run Android, and as such, do offer WiFi calling... but they're in the minority.

Can't speak to Australia like you can, Dean, but here stateside? Really T-Mobile's still the most likely candidate of the big three to leave you in a situation needing WiFi to pinch cover for lack of voice coverage, despite owning some of the lowest frequency mobile network spectrum now. Kind of a poetic irony, really, since they were the first to roll that feature out in NA with the 3G standard nearly 15 years ago given the poor building penetration they used to get on most of their network. Only now, it's to plug gaps in their networks that's missing both VoLTE Band 12 and 5G Band n71 due to equipment, leaving you with nothing but mid-band and millimeter wave 4G/5G that can't penetrate buildings... again.

And of all the phones that could use WiFi calling the most on their network? Feature phones. Because feature phones don't support 5G, so no matter how thorough their 600MHz Band 71 holdings are nationwide, there's still massive holes in their 700MHz Band 12 4G VoLTE coverage because they only deployed that spectrum as a 5G network. And of course, the very people most effected by this ridiculousness on T-Mobile's part are the very people in this thread deliberately looking to not walk around with shiny new smartphones.

Ah, I'm surprised but not that surprised that KaiOS doesn't support it. Are band 13 phones common or still kinda rare? Seems as though T-Mobile is worth skipping if their low-band coverage is so limited.

I was poking around looking at some of the feature phone offerings, and a couple of the carriers here sell a feature phone that runs neither KaiOS nor Android Go, which is a carrier-branded Alcatel 3080 (64MB of RAM and 128MB of storage). One of the carriers suggested it ran something called Thread X, which upon further investigation S30+ is still available on new devices, and there are feature-phone tier chipsets with VoLTE support (one was the UNISOC T117).

Of course the odds are low of a company bothering to make a version for North America with its kooky 4G bands and a fairly small market.

It seems as though the weirdness in the US is really designed to push people towards buying phones exclusively from carriers. Do the carriers themselves sell flip phones?

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2023, 07:22:37 AM »
Ah, I'm surprised but not that surprised that KaiOS doesn't support it. Are band 13 phones common or still kinda rare? Seems as though T-Mobile is worth skipping if their low-band coverage is so limited.

4G Band 13 phones are still mostly relegated to the higher end unlocked handsets, international devices, and flagships here, because selling Band 13 phones means selling the device carrier unlocked due to FCC requirements and the carriers still desperately want vendor lock in and phones incompatible with the competition. The thing is, T-Mobile has near nationwide 600MHz Band 71 coverage, but as I said, it's ALL 5G deployment. Unfortunately, there are entire states without 700MHz Band 12 coverage which is their VoLTE backbone. Ask me how I know this! Rant following...
Spoiler: show
T-Mobile's doing the exact same rapid planned obsolescence rollout trying to push to better network coverage again, just like they did with 4G back in 2015 during the early 3G network shutdown, meanwhile selling 3G only devices all the way up to months before the 3G network shutdown. I stopped using T-Mobile in this state around the same time, because voice service went from solid 3G coverage that didn't penetrate buildings to immensely spotty 2G coverage on the same band that had to be shared with all the old legacy 2G IoT devices and every other T-Mobile customer making phone calls in the state. Why? No Band 12 licenses in this state and elsewhere. That means that they basically abandoned millions of people who did voice calling in multiple states until 2020-2021, but only remedied it with 5G network coverage, and will shut down the remaining legacy network basically three years after introducing that coverage... which isn't enough time for enough cheaper handsets to roll in before forced transition. Of course, they've had so many friggin' databreaches here the past few years, I'm glad I'm not even on their network anymore even as an MVNO customer. They were MVNO friendly with their pricing and scrappy, but their network deployment has been way too aggressive against the reality of the hardware deployment for the people. Between that, the data breaches, and the hostile device unlocking policies coupled with their restrictive VoLTE certification... my tolerance for their "uncarrier" shenanigans has worn thin.

I was poking around looking at some of the feature phone offerings, and a couple of the carriers here sell a feature phone that runs neither KaiOS nor Android Go, which is a carrier-branded Alcatel 3080 (64MB of RAM and 128MB of storage). One of the carriers suggested it ran something called Thread X, which upon further investigation S30+ is still available on new devices, and there are feature-phone tier chipsets with VoLTE support (one was the UNISOC T117).

Aah, ThreadX... just as it was starting to get interesting as a feature phone operating system after near 20 years developing and kicking around, Microsoft bought it and then vanished like a fart in the wind. *sigh* And yeah, S30+ is still floating around here and there, and they apparently shoehorned 4G VoLTE calling support onto it, but the implementation was a little flaky depending on the network's VoLTE implementation, IIRC. HMD/Nokia themselves sold a couple S30+ models here post 3G shutdown, but they weren't popular and quietly disappeared after a few months only to be replaced with nothing but KaiOS devices. Basically one strike too many for any renewed success here, Stateside.

Real shame, too, as S30/60 were real workhorse OSes back in the day. I'm still surprised of all the Symbian OS resurrections to get modern VoLTE bolt-ons, they extended Series 30 of all things when it was Series 60 that already had the RTOS latency that allowed for VoIP and WiFi calling support fifteen years ago.

I don't doubt there's feature phone chipsets with 5G capability, it's going to have to happen... but the process is slow. Between the marginal profitability over selling black slabs and FCC certification process...

Of course the odds are low of a company bothering to make a version for North America with its kooky 4G bands and a fairly small market.

It seems as though the weirdness in the US is really designed to push people towards buying phones exclusively from carriers. Do the carriers themselves sell flip phones?

Yeah, between the band fragmentation across half the friggin' spectrum between elephant farts and flashlights, even fractal antennas get big and weird here the more carriers and bands you try and provide for in a handset. That doesn't work well with smaller form factor devices like feature phones. (Yet another reason why smartphones are pushed, lazy cheap engineering that doesn't have to deal with a bunch of buttons surviving more than a few thousand presses and a form factor that doesn't make you work to fit a half dozen antennae into a tiny area.) Of course, the VoLTE implemenation and attempts to workaround interoperability between AT&T's IMEI whitelist, T-Mobile's proprietary VoLTE certification, and Verizon's Band 13 for activation restrictions doesn't make things easy, either.

These days, they usually have one token model available for purchase themselves. Two, tops... most of them are targeted at the prepaid market, carrier locked, and unlikely to work on the competitor's network even if it is unlocked.

Sure am glad all this advanced wireless technology fixed the fragmentation and interoperability problems the carriers said it would to try and avoid further regulation.

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2023, 10:52:50 AM »
It seems as though the weirdness in the US is really designed to push people towards buying phones exclusively from carriers. Do the carriers themselves sell flip phones?

They typically have one or two models for "old people who refuse to learn a smartphone."  They're usually awful to use.

Daley

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2023, 06:46:58 AM »
Oddball question for those here...

If I had a couple refurbished, mid-range 4G smartphones pre-loaded with Murena /e/OS come available that should theoretically be compatible with all three networks, would anyone be interested?

What would your top price look like?


Asked and answered, I guess. (Silence is an answer, after all.) Figured given some interest in the idea, I'd offer if an opportunity came up. But... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 04:21:00 PM by Daley »

alsoknownasDean

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2023, 01:33:06 AM »
Oddball question for those here...

If I had a couple refurbished, mid-range 4G smartphones pre-loaded with Murena /e/OS come available that should theoretically be compatible with all three networks, would anyone be interested?

What would your top price look like?


Asked and answered, I guess. (Silence is an answer, after all.) Figured given some interest in the idea, I'd offer if an opportunity came up. But... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I wonder if there's a place in the market for de-smarted Android ROMs? Start with Lineage or base AOSP and remove the web browser, email and app market, and maybe add a suitable launcher.

That way people may be able to avoid the addictive nature of an always-online smartphone, but still have access to a decent camera and not having to use a T9 keyboard to text, whilst keeping a device out of e-waste.

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2023, 08:12:18 PM »
Us flip phone users in Canada are fortunate to still have 3G available everywhere with no signs of phasing out (at least as far as I know). I'm very happy with my nine-year-old built-like-a-brick model and will hang onto it until it's totally dead, and hopefully when that happens flip phones are still an option. Unfortunately the quality of the two or three models produced today seems considerably lower - they seem quite a bit flimsier and I would guess less likely to survive a drop.

Personally I have zero interest in texting, period, T9 or otherwise, and I definitely do not want to send or receive group texts, so that's never been an issue for me. My phone is for making calls and checking the time. I use the alarm feature maybe once every few years when they shut the power off for electrical work overnight.

Someone upthread mentioned Judaism, interestingly an Orthodox Jewish acquaintance of mine mentioned a lot of the men in the community use flip phones to avoid the temptation of pornography. I never would have even thought of that.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2023, 08:14:20 PM by Zikoris »

SmashYourSmartPhone

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Re: A not-smartphone phone discussion thread (2023)
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2023, 11:49:58 AM »
Asked and answered, I guess. (Silence is an answer, after all.) Figured given some interest in the idea, I'd offer if an opportunity came up. But... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Seems so.  I certainly wouldn't pay any extra for it being done ahead of time.  But I have the skills to do that myself should I care to.

I wonder if there's a place in the market for de-smarted Android ROMs? Start with Lineage or base AOSP and remove the web browser, email and app market, and maybe add a suitable launcher.

That way people may be able to avoid the addictive nature of an always-online smartphone, but still have access to a decent camera and not having to use a T9 keyboard to text, whilst keeping a device out of e-waste.

The "ROM Communities" seem to be run by people who consider the basic features of a smartphone to be requirements.  One certainly could do as you suggest, but then you end up with a weird device.  You lose most of the features that require the large screen, but are still stuck with the compromises of "bolt a large, fragile screen into a chassis that requires you to type with your fingers on a screen."  Built, of course, on top of something designed for behavioral data extraction.

T9 really isn't that bad.  I prefer it.  I can do it blind once I've learned the phone.  Also, the older devices that would make good conversions for this typically require a battery replacement, and don't have amazing cameras in the first place - a lot of the modern smartphone camera improvements aren't at the sensor level so much as at the computational level.

Someone upthread mentioned Judaism, interestingly an Orthodox Jewish acquaintance of mine mentioned a lot of the men in the community use flip phones to avoid the temptation of pornography. I never would have even thought of that.

Makes plenty of sense to me.  A smartphone is a private pornography pipe, among other uses.  But that seems a first and foremost use, based on the rather staggering "internet porn" stats, and it's a very low friction temptation.  Most modern browsers, even on phones, include "porn mode" (the assorted private browsing modes that don't leave as much of a trace), and if you've built your home around things like "the computer screen faces public areas," it's a lot less friction on a smartphone than it is elsewhere.

Further, if that's a "community norm," then people will still be used to communicating in ways that don't involve smartphone-required apps.  A flip phone in a community of flip phone users isn't a problem.  A flip phone in a community of smart phone addicts can be quite annoying, when everyone else just assumes smartphones and a willingness to "install whatever app everyone else is using."

But, beyond that, as was pointed out in the older front page writings, "You can't miss what you've never had in the first place."  Something I read recently involved someone asking an Amish or Mennonite woman about "But don't you miss the convenience of a smartphone?"  And the response, reasonably enough was, "No.  I've never had one, so I can't miss it."  The hedonic adaptation treadmill is real, and while it sounds absurd to point it out, "You can't miss what you've never had" is very real.  I've never driven anything with a heated steering wheel, so I can't miss it (and I've worn driving gloves in the past to deal with cold wheels).

In any case, good habits also involve turning the phone off a lot.